a self recurring player killing spell that can also be used on myself to draw cards for X? how is that really weak? its a great finishing move, instant speed, and tutorable for anything that fetches an instant (easy in blue and black).
i fail to see how blue sun's zenith is a weak card at all.
Lion's Eye Diamond seems baller - i'll have to put one on my wish list, good call there. Chord of Calling...i'd probably sooner go genesis wave personally, just to throw down my deck on the table.
The problem with Blue Sun's Zenith is that when you do have infinite mana, there are better cards to end the game, and if you don't have infinite mana, you're drawing a full hand every turn with Damia anyway. For example, Chord of Calling itself wins with infinite mana - Chord for Eternal Witness, which grabs Chord, which grabs Deadeye Navigator, flicker E Wit, find every creature in your deck and infinite bounce your opponents permanents with Deadeye Navigator and Venser, then tutor your entire deck with Deadeye + Rune-Scarred Demon. There are just so many ways to win once you have infinite mana that doing it by using an otherwise-less-than-useful spell is unneccesary.
Your own ability to remove permanents that hit play is not so great. It seems like you are relying a bit overly on your countermagic to keep things out of play rather than having ways to interact with things that make it through. I am a bit surprised to not see things like Beast Within / Krosan Grip / Reclamation Sage in this sort of build. I feel you might be a little heavy on your counterspells to be honest and a little light on your spot removal.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Definitely a huge weakness in my build - i keep a copy of Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim in my deckbox actually; though rarely sub them in. I should find a slot for beast within, considering how incredibly powerful that card is. I dont like ETB enchant destruction cards like Reclamation Sage, simply because Torpor Orb is such a problem.
Thanks for the insight, i'll have to make some tweaks!
Time Stretch its a big haymaker but honestly I have never been keen on how much it costs to cast. Its also a very big target for counter magic and it takes a long time to be able to cast. In my opinion the stronger option is to run the 5 mana Time Warp effects instead and while they get less value, you can use them as Explore effects a lot easier if you need to. They are easier to protect with counter magic as well. The single extra turns are still really good but I feel like they do a better job of streamlining a list rather than trying to be a big haymaker.
Dryad Arbor I guess I have to ask why. You also are only using two fetchlands that can target it which is worth mentioning that if you plan on using it its probably worth including the other fetches. You basic land count also looks light though at a glance. I normally do not advocate utilizing Dryad Arbor in most EDH decks though which is why I ask why is it in the list.
Life from the Loam it feels a bit out of place. I get the Crucible because Crucible + Azusa is great but Loam seems a lot less good. I suppose it makes more sense if you see a lot of land destruction in your meta which is about the only way this one makes sense to me. If so... I guess its fine. Most decks cant make great use of this outside of being a graveyard deck looking mostly to dredge off of it.
Utopia Sprawl not a big fan I guess just because you become more of a target for land removal. Explore essentially only costs one mana but it does come down a turn behind. Still, I don't like making my own lands targets and the fact that it has to enchant a forest also sort of sucks.
Looking at your landbase, I could see cutting some of the utility lands and adding a few more basics yet. You do have a good amount of land searching which seems like it would serve you to keep your basic land count in check. I would also be a little concerned by Ruination / Blood Moon / Back to Basics effects as well. I like to try to keep my basic count in the 12-15 range due to these effects especially if I plan to search for lands a lot which it seems you are doing.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
What's up man. BUG used to be a favorite color combination of mine but it fell out of favor in my head and so I put it away. What I say following I say with all due respect because Damia has a soft spot in my heart.
ISBPathfinder highlights a weakness in your deck that I think is extremely relevant. My best friend plays a Damia deck that is almost card for card the same as yours. And it's silly how simple his deck folds to Damia dying. He and other players in my group tout it as his best deck, yet I've only lost 4/11 games against it when playing my decks against it, 1v1 and group setting combined. He usually keeps a super fast aggro hand which pumps out a Damia on T2/T3 and then hopes to draw counters to protect his win. There is always, consistently, a turn where there is an unprotected Damia on the field and if Damia gets back to him alive by some gross error on the rest of the table's part he usually wins. He trades explosiveness for consistency, essentially. And has lost most of his games when I play at the table because I recognize this weakness. As he has currently built his deck, if I can protect a Torpor Orb, he loses. If I can protect a Vedalken Shackles with enough Islands, he loses. If I can resolve a permanent that can kill him he is very limited in the number of ways he can kill said permanent. That is a really big deal for him. He comments on it after he scoops up his cards almost every time. I've seen my Creeping Tar Pit nearly kill him before I combo'd out. My Kaalia deck he has particular trouble against (Kaalia is his sworn enemy just as his Animar is my sworn enemy) because if I sneak it in early game or use Cavern of Souls mana he's almost helpless to Kaalia. I've told him to trade some of his ramp for removal but he's really attached to his deck as it currently stands. Whenever I field a control deck that actually can do things to his board, he sits on the table trying to resolve a Damia. I think my Memnarch deck has only lost 1/5 games against his Damia. I second ISB's comments about some of your cards and would also ask about a few as well:
How was Liliana of the Veil been for you? It has some good synergy but is probably only used once before it gets runs over by creatures or otherwise removed. As I've become more competitive, I've fallen out of using Planeswalkers in Multiplayer EDH. Does it work for you?
I think in one of the earlier posts you mentioned cutting Kruphix and he's still in your OP list. How has that been for you? I've never played it or against it so I'm very limited in my commenting there but it seems like it could go.
Apologies man, i totally overlooked your post. So heres my reasoning for USZ over CoC. If i play CoC, and put my deck on the table, my opponent can still do several things to survive me (assuming i dont put another combo in the deck for CoC to access, which is obviously the right way to do it), such as bounce my stuff with an overloaded Cyc Rift, any instant board wipe, or perhaps some other trick. Sure, the loop with CoC is great; but idk, not 100% sold. USZ ends the game outright when i play it, and there is nothing my opponent can do to survive once it starts resolving, since they deck out and auto lose. If i want to defeat a number of opponents, technically speaking i could USZ myself for my deck, draw up all my tutors and fetches and quick card draw, leaving just USZ in my deck, and then i can just keep blasting everyone and tutoring it outta my deck with what i have in hand. Far riskier, but i guess my point is, for my build, i prefer USZ still for the time being. that said, CoC is awesome. I am also tinkering with Villainous Wealth, cuz its a fun card. I am also scared of rest in peace dismantling a CoC based combo, as its already been shown, im weak to artifact/enchant removal.
as for your comment about usz myself when i have damia out, true, not a great play, but usz does wonders in an opening hand full of mana ramp but when i cant safely cast damia or reach 7 mana. i will concede its not a frequent use of the card, but its still useful from time to time, whereas with 6 mana and coc, i dont see myself getting a lot done.
also, for what its worth - i will be buying a chord of calling now and trying it out. youve made a helluva point
Time Stretch its a big haymaker but honestly I have never been keen on how much it costs to cast. Its also a very big target for counter magic and it takes a long time to be able to cast. In my opinion the stronger option is to run the 5 mana Time Warp effects instead and while they get less value, you can use them as Explore effects a lot easier if you need to. They are easier to protect with counter magic as well. The single extra turns are still really good but I feel like they do a better job of streamlining a list rather than trying to be a big haymaker.
Dryad Arbor I guess I have to ask why. You also are only using two fetchlands that can target it which is worth mentioning that if you plan on using it its probably worth including the other fetches. You basic land count also looks light though at a glance. I normally do not advocate utilizing Dryad Arbor in most EDH decks though which is why I ask why is it in the list.
Life from the Loam it feels a bit out of place. I get the Crucible because Crucible + Azusa is great but Loam seems a lot less good. I suppose it makes more sense if you see a lot of land destruction in your meta which is about the only way this one makes sense to me. If so... I guess its fine. Most decks cant make great use of this outside of being a graveyard deck looking mostly to dredge off of it.
Utopia Sprawl not a big fan I guess just because you become more of a target for land removal. Explore essentially only costs one mana but it does come down a turn behind. Still, I don't like making my own lands targets and the fact that it has to enchant a forest also sort of sucks.
Looking at your landbase, I could see cutting some of the utility lands and adding a few more basics yet. You do have a good amount of land searching which seems like it would serve you to keep your basic land count in check. I would also be a little concerned by Ruination / Blood Moon / Back to Basics effects as well. I like to try to keep my basic count in the 12-15 range due to these effects especially if I plan to search for lands a lot which it seems you are doing.
@Timestretch - yeah, this was a very recent addition, not 100% sold yet. I added it for the ability to go infinte turns without limitless mana via recasting / recurring from grave. Time warp would accomplish the same thing at a much lower mana cost. Definitely a better option. I will have to swap them out when i get home tonight; you make a compelling argument.
@Dryad arbor - early blocker if i need it, i can green sun for 0 and fetch it for psuedo (albiet TERRIBLE) ramp, and i can crack a fetch into an suprise blocker, and with crucible in play, it allows me to recur a 1/1 over and over to chump block. its just fun tech to have in the deck; not necessarily a great card, but i think it has some uses.
@Life from the loam - i have tons of recursion in my build, so dredging serves as a sort of card advantage, though with grave hate obviously this card is worthless. combined with land drop increase this card does wonders. i really like it and i would recommend it.
@Utopia sprawl - on the chopping block. i dont like this card and i should remove it. probably will drop it for krosan grip.
I agree, i need to buff my basics a bit; my current build is very greedy - probably reflects a lot from my Shardless BUG deck.
What's up man. BUG used to be a favorite color combination of mine but it fell out of favor in my head and so I put it away. What I say following I say with all due respect because Damia has a soft spot in my heart.
...
How was Liliana of the Veil been for you? It has some good synergy but is probably only used once before it gets runs over by creatures or otherwise removed. As I've become more competitive, I've fallen out of using Planeswalkers in Multiplayer EDH. Does it work for you?
I think in one of the earlier posts you mentioned cutting Kruphix and he's still in your OP list. How has that been for you? I've never played it or against it so I'm very limited in my commenting there but it seems like it could go.
Sorry mate, abridged your post - though i agree; this deck has a lot of holes and i need to start cleaning them up. I agree that ISB is on point, and i am going to heed his mentions.
@Liliana - honestly? shes been disappointing. I used to run a very heavy discard suite, designed around symmetrical discard and damia reloading my hand. Since ive removed that, liliana has bascially become a $50 diabolic edict for me. I think shes one of my weaker cards, and only really shines when i go against a voltron player who gets down to just their general.
@Kruphix - frankly, i have mixed feelings about kruphix. He has saved me a few times, and frankly, thats the only thing keeping him in the deck. the logical side of me says that i shouldnt base a card on a few times its saved me vs the whole of the deck; but if i cant measure a card on experience, how can i? (worldslayer indestructible general hit; i lost everything, but kruphix stored some mana for me and let me hold a fat hand, which turned into a game saver - very rare i grant you, but the fact it did that really gave him a soft spot for me...)
whew! huge post!
guys, i cannot thank you enough, i have about 2-3 years of edh under my belt, but im always learning! please keep the constructive comments coming! it means a lot!
I went through your list just to highlight your own interactions with your grave:
Deathrite Shaman - mostly minor in my opinion. I wouldn't bother going out of my way to mill for this guy as he generally doesn't need it. Eternal Witness - its decent in hand but you run like little to no reanimation in deck assuming you mill into him. Snapcaster Mage - decent Crucible of Worlds - redundant / not so great Sensei's Divining Top - indirect value in milling things you dont like. You run enough shuffle effects though its likely minor. Yawgmoth's Will - solid assuming its in hand. Mystical Teachings - decent Insidious Dreams - good in that you can recover lands to discard to it. Volrath's Stronghold - good
So, looking at your list the things that seem to be really any good with milling seem mostly isolated to:
Personally this is so few cards and only one of them is directly good to mill into and the rest are more of decent to mill while in hand. Personally speaking I feel like life from the loam is still quite weak in this list outside of playing against MLD regularly. My thoughts on the matter tend to be more along the lines that it isn't doing much for you outside of the dredge and there are a lot of cards that can more profitably do that than Loam. My opinion of the card has always been more along the lines that its overly complex card advantage where you are moving cards back and forth to make it work. I mostly think its not worth fooling about with outside of MLD metas. Who cares if someone strip mines a utility land, just move on and get more cards.
Delay / Memory Lapse are also counterspells I would likely consider cutting for Arcane Denial / Negate as well. Memory Lapse looses a lot of power in this format because you are only stalling it and normally its a tempo card but with the number of opponents you will have you likely need to be countering bad things outright. Stall tactics only work if everyone is comboing off very quickly but even then you know that you are going to have a problem with those cards yet. I like these sort of tactics more in 1v1. I like Remand over Memory Lapse offhand because it has the positive card advantage for yourself.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
First, thanks for the positive response to all of the critiques and suggestions that people have offered. It's good to see that you don't get super defensive about card X and why strategy Y sucks completely. It reinforces the idea that you can at least think about suggestions and apply them, which only lends itself to more positive critiques and suggestions.
A card to consider that my friend plays to great effect is Mystic Remora. It helps you not be as reliant on Damia as you otherwise would be and is a great card advantage engine. Counter wars become much better for you because you're drawing cards off of your opponent's counterspells OR an entirely different counter war. Personally, the Damia I had before I took her apart wasn't reliant as much on Damia as a linch-pin piece of card draw like other lists I've seen. And it seemed to work better for me in the long run; if Damia died, I wasn't as sad in trying to recast her. She was great bait that either propelled me forward in card advantage or took a counterspell that the other blue guy was holding up, allowing my Tooth and Nail to resolve that much more frequently. I like your list otherwise, and I wish you happy BUG-ing out! It was fun for me to introduce BUG by Vorosh to my playgroup and watch it subsequently be one of the decks to beat in our group. That's a satisfying feeling.
How has Villainous Wealth been? That's a new card that has gotten me to seriously consider building BUG again.
Delay / Memory Lapse are also counterspells I would likely consider cutting for Arcane Denial / Negate as well. Memory Lapse looses a lot of power in this format because you are only stalling it and normally its a tempo card but with the number of opponents you will have you likely need to be countering bad things outright. Stall tactics only work if everyone is comboing off very quickly but even then you know that you are going to have a problem with those cards yet. I like these sort of tactics more in 1v1. I like Remand over Memory Lapse offhand because it has the positive card advantage for yourself.
Wow, that really puts things in perspective. There you have it; i'll try dropping loam and playing some other things. worst case scenario, i put it back in.
I find Delay pretty valuable as countermagic - it counters any type of spell; and with 3 time counters, can really make a spell worthless. I think its also worth a mention it stops any sort of X spell dead in its tracks. its most valuable play is probably against other counter magic / instant effects that respond to cards, as it makes them auto cast during owners upkeep. Its not the greatest counterspell ever, but for its cost and versatility, i like it.
Memory Lapse...this one i wouldnt lose sleep over dropping. I dont like Negate for my meta, but Arcane Denial can be used on myself in a pinch for 3 cards, and can counter huge effects hard for a great mana cost. Your analysis is right on target though, Memory lapse is great at locking down one opponent in the late game, but in a multiplayer based format (which is the bulk of my games), its simply not as valuable.
Remember as well with counterspells that you are likely disrupting something that is important to them so even if you end up giving someone else two cards from Arcane Denial, you stopped something important to them or important to you to not resolve. While you are giving an opponent two cards out of it, when you break down the general multiplayer game, you draw one card for every three cards that your opponents draw just in a turn rotation. Giving yourself one card + stopping something important far outweighs giving a single opponent two cards. Three cards are normally drawn for every card you draw in just a turn rotation so its still a good value generator.
Arcane Denial is one of those cards that has a completely different mentality to it when playing 1v1 than playing multiplayer. It gets much stronger in this format where as the cards like Memory Lapse fall off due to the multiple opponents.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Apologies man, i totally overlooked your post. So heres my reasoning for USZ over CoC. If i play CoC, and put my deck on the table, my opponent can still do several things to survive me (assuming i dont put another combo in the deck for CoC to access, which is obviously the right way to do it), such as bounce my stuff with an overloaded Cyc Rift, any instant board wipe, or perhaps some other trick. Sure, the loop with CoC is great; but idk, not 100% sold. USZ ends the game outright when i play it, and there is nothing my opponent can do to survive once it starts resolving, since they deck out and auto lose. If i want to defeat a number of opponents, technically speaking i could USZ myself for my deck, draw up all my tutors and fetches and quick card draw, leaving just USZ in my deck, and then i can just keep blasting everyone and tutoring it outta my deck with what i have in hand. Far riskier, but i guess my point is, for my build, i prefer USZ still for the time being. that said, CoC is awesome. I am also tinkering with Villainous Wealth, cuz its a fun card. I am also scared of rest in peace dismantling a CoC based combo, as its already been shown, im weak to artifact/enchant removal.
If they have disruption, they'd just use it on your infinite mana combo. RiP disrupts it I guess but if that's really an issue just CoC for Mulldrifter or something once if you have Deadeye + Pali or any other combo. CoC also finds your infinite mana combo pretty easily with CoC for E Wit, then DEN, then Pali.
Please, do test the card. I think it's very strong.
Beast Within OR Maelstrom Pulse? Pulse has the ability to wipe out token armies - Beast has the ability to hit lands...
I am not too concerned with the exclusive mana cost on pulse.
Edit: Also, song of the dryads seems useful, though it can be removed itself, which is less than ideal. It hits indestructible targets (darksteel forge, nasty commanders, gods which are plentiful), and sort of tucks commanders.
I think Beast Within, being an instant, is better. IMO it's the best removal spell in our colors.
I agree. now i just gotta get myself a copy. I will be replacing kodama's reach with it. I dont need the extra ramp for basics in this build - kodamas was thrown in to replace previously inferior tech; but has proven weaker than desired itself.
K Reach (and Cultivate) have both proven to be vastly overrated. Being 3-for-1 ramp with this many lands, they don't provide the advantage of Nature's Lore (and Three Visits).
K Reach (and Cultivate) have both proven to be vastly overrated. Being 3-for-1 ramp with this many lands, they don't provide the advantage of Nature's Lore (and Three Visits).
How has CoC been?
Havent gotten a chance to play it. Most of my playgroup has kids now-a-days so we dont get to play as much as we want - and my damia build only gets 1 game or so a weekend if at all. Add in the fact that we are all playing the C14 decks and I have my new pet project, Mishra, going; I havent had a chance to playtest at all yet.
I hear that. I'm a highschooler, but all my friends have graduated and are in college, so I get to playtest basically only when they're in town - looking at Winter Break for my next sesh.
That said, I've made my own Damia deck. Well, technically it's not mine, but I convinced the owner of an LGS to build it, and basically built his deck. CoC has been really overperforming in that deck. Hope you have a similar effect.
This is a bit of a different take on Damia and so far I have had amazing results. The first thing you might notice in this particular deck is that there is a distinct lack of control. It's meant to be that way to make room for a consistent and aggressive style. The deck has multiple plans of attack, all of which it can work towards and switch game plans for at any time. You have multiple infinite mana combos whether they be utilizing ETB abilities or Static Abilities, either of which can be channeled into cards such as Villainous Wealth or Blue Sun's Zenith. You also have lock out that you can tutor for in the side utilizing Living Wish and Death Wish. You can also go the route of simply taking infinite turns with loops through Dead Eye Navigator/Progenitor Mimic + Eternal Witness/Archeomancer. You can also achieve infinite loop by simply drawing out your deck and replaying Beacon of Tomorrows over and over again. With infinite turns you can utilize your creatures to amass and army, simply hit the open people with commander damage, or just utilize Jace's ability until everyone has no deck or hand.
The deck will cycle it's hand within the first 3-4 turns, whether that is achieved by Wheel of Fortune effects or casting Damia herself, it doesn't really matter. When facing against obvious control players you have to be more reserved and you must utilize your tutors to help push your plan into fruition (Tutoring Boseiju, Cavern, or one of your counterspells for instance) or utilizing your wish board.
With the wish board you are always doing one of two things: Wishing to answer something that is a true problem (will be Gaddock Teeg, sometimes Torpor Orb, or Stranglehold) or you will be wishing to win the game.
There are a few cards that have bounced back and forth in my head, namely Force of Will, Necropotence and Beast Within for the sideboard.
The land count has gotten criticized once or twice but honestly, it's more than enough. Considering the mulligan rules of EDH and the vast amount of mana rocks in the deck, I more often find that I have more land than I would care for at times, though by then it doesn't tend to matter as much.
Overall the deck has an amazing record as I've played in many SCG Open side events against other competitive EDH players. Even so, I would like to try and filter through the control cards a bit more to ensure the ability to answer anything. I've never had an issue gaining control pieces and/or recurring them to gain 3-4 functions of control out of a single card, but I feel that there may be situations I haven't come across yet that I may have 0 answers to. Putting MORE control has simply tested terribly. It weakens the consistency of aggressive hand an tends to cause games to go out past turn 4 which isn't ideal. Again, the primary function of the control is to ensure my reloads happen (either by protecting Damia or protecting my Wheel effects), the ability to stop the opponent from going off is secondary.
Eshnim - With Exploration and Burgeoning, you should really be playing more lands. That way, you can power out Damia faster, and then refill your hand while getting the lands out quicker. You're also playing a couple spells I don't really think are good, like the wheels, Treasure Cruise, Beacon of Tomorrows, et cetera. Seems too slow.
The wheels are the best cards in the deck. When you drop most if not all of your hand on turn 2 a wheel is perfect to reload and disrupt the opponent. Also the ability to continue reloading your hand with out damia makes it much more resilient. They combo well with cruise also. Try them out, when you run that many mana rocks and you properly mulligan, you're going to get a close to empty very soon in most cases.
If you run too many lands you run into the problem with not being able to put enough down to reload a vast amount. I can tell you that this deck is easily FASTER than most decks out there because you will wheel yourself into more acceleration. Beacon is a finishing piece, not a set up piece, so it's mana cost is largely irrelevant as getting an extra turn with damia on the field should win you the game every time.
My deck can power damia out on turn 1 (EXTREMELY RARE) turn 2 (Fairly rare) or turn 3 (much more often) and if you can't do it on turn 4 you've drawn horridly and you're having a very slow game.
Again the wheels are the MVPs of this deck. You draw multiple mana rocks or quick accel pieces and dump out your hand to bring damia in. If you're truly trying to get her out fast, anyone can tell you that you're not getting to 7 mana on turn 2 or 3 with out pretty much dedicating everything you have to the board state. Then you HOPE Damia sticks. If you plan to power out Damia turn 5 then sure, roll with more lands and hope you draw exploration or burgeoning with some green "go get basics" effects. If you plan to put her out sooner, dedicate to it and then patch up the part where when she dies, you lose. You have to recreate her effect for yourself. The only thing you care about is drawing back up to 7 so you can continue to accel. If you accelerate hard into Damia and the turn comes back to you and you haven't won, you're either facing 3 very heavy control decks, you've wiffed, or you're playing a much slower version. Nothing wrong with playing a slower version but mine isn't meant to be that way.
After playing several times over the holiday i have the following findings from my latest tweaks:
Beast Within is epic. Very useful removal and easily fetched using blue instant tutor spells as well as competitively costed; and targets anything i like. 10/10 would recommend to all other green edh decks
Chord of Calling - much better than anticipated. Enabled comboing off more consistently and gave me a 'second out' when i had my infinite combo set up. I have permanently dropped Villainous Wealth for this card. Wealth is good for a game, Chord is winning a game.
i fail to see how blue sun's zenith is a weak card at all.
Lion's Eye Diamond seems baller - i'll have to put one on my wish list, good call there. Chord of Calling...i'd probably sooner go genesis wave personally, just to throw down my deck on the table.
Thanks for the input dude!
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Humility / Torpor Orb / Sadistic Sacrament (you only have a few combo pieces that matter)
Your own ability to remove permanents that hit play is not so great. It seems like you are relying a bit overly on your countermagic to keep things out of play rather than having ways to interact with things that make it through. I am a bit surprised to not see things like Beast Within / Krosan Grip / Reclamation Sage in this sort of build. I feel you might be a little heavy on your counterspells to be honest and a little light on your spot removal.
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Definitely a huge weakness in my build - i keep a copy of Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim in my deckbox actually; though rarely sub them in. I should find a slot for beast within, considering how incredibly powerful that card is. I dont like ETB enchant destruction cards like Reclamation Sage, simply because Torpor Orb is such a problem.
Thanks for the insight, i'll have to make some tweaks!
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Dryad Arbor I guess I have to ask why. You also are only using two fetchlands that can target it which is worth mentioning that if you plan on using it its probably worth including the other fetches. You basic land count also looks light though at a glance. I normally do not advocate utilizing Dryad Arbor in most EDH decks though which is why I ask why is it in the list.
Life from the Loam it feels a bit out of place. I get the Crucible because Crucible + Azusa is great but Loam seems a lot less good. I suppose it makes more sense if you see a lot of land destruction in your meta which is about the only way this one makes sense to me. If so... I guess its fine. Most decks cant make great use of this outside of being a graveyard deck looking mostly to dredge off of it.
Utopia Sprawl not a big fan I guess just because you become more of a target for land removal. Explore essentially only costs one mana but it does come down a turn behind. Still, I don't like making my own lands targets and the fact that it has to enchant a forest also sort of sucks.
Looking at your landbase, I could see cutting some of the utility lands and adding a few more basics yet. You do have a good amount of land searching which seems like it would serve you to keep your basic land count in check. I would also be a little concerned by Ruination / Blood Moon / Back to Basics effects as well. I like to try to keep my basic count in the 12-15 range due to these effects especially if I plan to search for lands a lot which it seems you are doing.
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[Modern] Allies
ISBPathfinder highlights a weakness in your deck that I think is extremely relevant. My best friend plays a Damia deck that is almost card for card the same as yours. And it's silly how simple his deck folds to Damia dying. He and other players in my group tout it as his best deck, yet I've only lost 4/11 games against it when playing my decks against it, 1v1 and group setting combined. He usually keeps a super fast aggro hand which pumps out a Damia on T2/T3 and then hopes to draw counters to protect his win. There is always, consistently, a turn where there is an unprotected Damia on the field and if Damia gets back to him alive by some gross error on the rest of the table's part he usually wins. He trades explosiveness for consistency, essentially. And has lost most of his games when I play at the table because I recognize this weakness. As he has currently built his deck, if I can protect a Torpor Orb, he loses. If I can protect a Vedalken Shackles with enough Islands, he loses. If I can resolve a permanent that can kill him he is very limited in the number of ways he can kill said permanent. That is a really big deal for him. He comments on it after he scoops up his cards almost every time. I've seen my Creeping Tar Pit nearly kill him before I combo'd out. My Kaalia deck he has particular trouble against (Kaalia is his sworn enemy just as his Animar is my sworn enemy) because if I sneak it in early game or use Cavern of Souls mana he's almost helpless to Kaalia. I've told him to trade some of his ramp for removal but he's really attached to his deck as it currently stands. Whenever I field a control deck that actually can do things to his board, he sits on the table trying to resolve a Damia. I think my Memnarch deck has only lost 1/5 games against his Damia. I second ISB's comments about some of your cards and would also ask about a few as well:
How was Liliana of the Veil been for you? It has some good synergy but is probably only used once before it gets runs over by creatures or otherwise removed. As I've become more competitive, I've fallen out of using Planeswalkers in Multiplayer EDH. Does it work for you?
I think in one of the earlier posts you mentioned cutting Kruphix and he's still in your OP list. How has that been for you? I've never played it or against it so I'm very limited in my commenting there but it seems like it could go.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Apologies man, i totally overlooked your post. So heres my reasoning for USZ over CoC. If i play CoC, and put my deck on the table, my opponent can still do several things to survive me (assuming i dont put another combo in the deck for CoC to access, which is obviously the right way to do it), such as bounce my stuff with an overloaded Cyc Rift, any instant board wipe, or perhaps some other trick. Sure, the loop with CoC is great; but idk, not 100% sold. USZ ends the game outright when i play it, and there is nothing my opponent can do to survive once it starts resolving, since they deck out and auto lose. If i want to defeat a number of opponents, technically speaking i could USZ myself for my deck, draw up all my tutors and fetches and quick card draw, leaving just USZ in my deck, and then i can just keep blasting everyone and tutoring it outta my deck with what i have in hand. Far riskier, but i guess my point is, for my build, i prefer USZ still for the time being. that said, CoC is awesome. I am also tinkering with Villainous Wealth, cuz its a fun card. I am also scared of rest in peace dismantling a CoC based combo, as its already been shown, im weak to artifact/enchant removal.
as for your comment about usz myself when i have damia out, true, not a great play, but usz does wonders in an opening hand full of mana ramp but when i cant safely cast damia or reach 7 mana. i will concede its not a frequent use of the card, but its still useful from time to time, whereas with 6 mana and coc, i dont see myself getting a lot done.
also, for what its worth - i will be buying a chord of calling now and trying it out. youve made a helluva point
@Timestretch - yeah, this was a very recent addition, not 100% sold yet. I added it for the ability to go infinte turns without limitless mana via recasting / recurring from grave. Time warp would accomplish the same thing at a much lower mana cost. Definitely a better option. I will have to swap them out when i get home tonight; you make a compelling argument.
@Dryad arbor - early blocker if i need it, i can green sun for 0 and fetch it for psuedo (albiet TERRIBLE) ramp, and i can crack a fetch into an suprise blocker, and with crucible in play, it allows me to recur a 1/1 over and over to chump block. its just fun tech to have in the deck; not necessarily a great card, but i think it has some uses.
@Life from the loam - i have tons of recursion in my build, so dredging serves as a sort of card advantage, though with grave hate obviously this card is worthless. combined with land drop increase this card does wonders. i really like it and i would recommend it.
@Utopia sprawl - on the chopping block. i dont like this card and i should remove it. probably will drop it for krosan grip.
I agree, i need to buff my basics a bit; my current build is very greedy - probably reflects a lot from my Shardless BUG deck.
Sorry mate, abridged your post - though i agree; this deck has a lot of holes and i need to start cleaning them up. I agree that ISB is on point, and i am going to heed his mentions.
@Liliana - honestly? shes been disappointing. I used to run a very heavy discard suite, designed around symmetrical discard and damia reloading my hand. Since ive removed that, liliana has bascially become a $50 diabolic edict for me. I think shes one of my weaker cards, and only really shines when i go against a voltron player who gets down to just their general.
@Kruphix - frankly, i have mixed feelings about kruphix. He has saved me a few times, and frankly, thats the only thing keeping him in the deck. the logical side of me says that i shouldnt base a card on a few times its saved me vs the whole of the deck; but if i cant measure a card on experience, how can i? (worldslayer indestructible general hit; i lost everything, but kruphix stored some mana for me and let me hold a fat hand, which turned into a game saver - very rare i grant you, but the fact it did that really gave him a soft spot for me...)
whew! huge post!
guys, i cannot thank you enough, i have about 2-3 years of edh under my belt, but im always learning! please keep the constructive comments coming! it means a lot!
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Deathrite Shaman - mostly minor in my opinion. I wouldn't bother going out of my way to mill for this guy as he generally doesn't need it.
Eternal Witness - its decent in hand but you run like little to no reanimation in deck assuming you mill into him.
Snapcaster Mage - decent
Crucible of Worlds - redundant / not so great
Sensei's Divining Top - indirect value in milling things you dont like. You run enough shuffle effects though its likely minor.
Yawgmoth's Will - solid assuming its in hand.
Mystical Teachings - decent
Insidious Dreams - good in that you can recover lands to discard to it.
Volrath's Stronghold - good
So, looking at your list the things that seem to be really any good with milling seem mostly isolated to:
Eternal Witness
Snapcaster Mage
Yawgmoth's Will
Mystical Teachings
Insidious Dreams
Volrath's Stronghold
Personally this is so few cards and only one of them is directly good to mill into and the rest are more of decent to mill while in hand. Personally speaking I feel like life from the loam is still quite weak in this list outside of playing against MLD regularly. My thoughts on the matter tend to be more along the lines that it isn't doing much for you outside of the dredge and there are a lot of cards that can more profitably do that than Loam. My opinion of the card has always been more along the lines that its overly complex card advantage where you are moving cards back and forth to make it work. I mostly think its not worth fooling about with outside of MLD metas. Who cares if someone strip mines a utility land, just move on and get more cards.
Delay / Memory Lapse are also counterspells I would likely consider cutting for Arcane Denial / Negate as well. Memory Lapse looses a lot of power in this format because you are only stalling it and normally its a tempo card but with the number of opponents you will have you likely need to be countering bad things outright. Stall tactics only work if everyone is comboing off very quickly but even then you know that you are going to have a problem with those cards yet. I like these sort of tactics more in 1v1. I like Remand over Memory Lapse offhand because it has the positive card advantage for yourself.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
A card to consider that my friend plays to great effect is Mystic Remora. It helps you not be as reliant on Damia as you otherwise would be and is a great card advantage engine. Counter wars become much better for you because you're drawing cards off of your opponent's counterspells OR an entirely different counter war. Personally, the Damia I had before I took her apart wasn't reliant as much on Damia as a linch-pin piece of card draw like other lists I've seen. And it seemed to work better for me in the long run; if Damia died, I wasn't as sad in trying to recast her. She was great bait that either propelled me forward in card advantage or took a counterspell that the other blue guy was holding up, allowing my Tooth and Nail to resolve that much more frequently. I like your list otherwise, and I wish you happy BUG-ing out! It was fun for me to introduce BUG by Vorosh to my playgroup and watch it subsequently be one of the decks to beat in our group. That's a satisfying feeling.
How has Villainous Wealth been? That's a new card that has gotten me to seriously consider building BUG again.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I find Delay pretty valuable as countermagic - it counters any type of spell; and with 3 time counters, can really make a spell worthless. I think its also worth a mention it stops any sort of X spell dead in its tracks. its most valuable play is probably against other counter magic / instant effects that respond to cards, as it makes them auto cast during owners upkeep. Its not the greatest counterspell ever, but for its cost and versatility, i like it.
Memory Lapse...this one i wouldnt lose sleep over dropping. I dont like Negate for my meta, but Arcane Denial can be used on myself in a pinch for 3 cards, and can counter huge effects hard for a great mana cost. Your analysis is right on target though, Memory lapse is great at locking down one opponent in the late game, but in a multiplayer based format (which is the bulk of my games), its simply not as valuable.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Arcane Denial is one of those cards that has a completely different mentality to it when playing 1v1 than playing multiplayer. It gets much stronger in this format where as the cards like Memory Lapse fall off due to the multiple opponents.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Added:
- Arcane Denial
- Kodama's Reach
- Krosan Grip
- Time Warp
DroppedLooking to purchase:
Beast Within
Chord of Calling
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
If they have disruption, they'd just use it on your infinite mana combo. RiP disrupts it I guess but if that's really an issue just CoC for Mulldrifter or something once if you have Deadeye + Pali or any other combo. CoC also finds your infinite mana combo pretty easily with CoC for E Wit, then DEN, then Pali.
Please, do test the card. I think it's very strong.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Beast Within OR Maelstrom Pulse? Pulse has the ability to wipe out token armies - Beast has the ability to hit lands...
I am not too concerned with the exclusive mana cost on pulse.
Edit: Also, song of the dryads seems useful, though it can be removed itself, which is less than ideal. It hits indestructible targets (darksteel forge, nasty commanders, gods which are plentiful), and sort of tucks commanders.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
How has CoC been?
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
That said, I've made my own Damia deck. Well, technically it's not mine, but I convinced the owner of an LGS to build it, and basically built his deck. CoC has been really overperforming in that deck. Hope you have a similar effect.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
In:
Beast Within
Out:
Kodama's Reach
Testing:
Chord of Calling in place of Villainous Wealth
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
This is a bit of a different take on Damia and so far I have had amazing results. The first thing you might notice in this particular deck is that there is a distinct lack of control. It's meant to be that way to make room for a consistent and aggressive style. The deck has multiple plans of attack, all of which it can work towards and switch game plans for at any time. You have multiple infinite mana combos whether they be utilizing ETB abilities or Static Abilities, either of which can be channeled into cards such as Villainous Wealth or Blue Sun's Zenith. You also have lock out that you can tutor for in the side utilizing Living Wish and Death Wish. You can also go the route of simply taking infinite turns with loops through Dead Eye Navigator/Progenitor Mimic + Eternal Witness/Archeomancer. You can also achieve infinite loop by simply drawing out your deck and replaying Beacon of Tomorrows over and over again. With infinite turns you can utilize your creatures to amass and army, simply hit the open people with commander damage, or just utilize Jace's ability until everyone has no deck or hand.
The deck will cycle it's hand within the first 3-4 turns, whether that is achieved by Wheel of Fortune effects or casting Damia herself, it doesn't really matter. When facing against obvious control players you have to be more reserved and you must utilize your tutors to help push your plan into fruition (Tutoring Boseiju, Cavern, or one of your counterspells for instance) or utilizing your wish board.
With the wish board you are always doing one of two things: Wishing to answer something that is a true problem (will be Gaddock Teeg, sometimes Torpor Orb, or Stranglehold) or you will be wishing to win the game.
There are a few cards that have bounced back and forth in my head, namely Force of Will, Necropotence and Beast Within for the sideboard.
The land count has gotten criticized once or twice but honestly, it's more than enough. Considering the mulligan rules of EDH and the vast amount of mana rocks in the deck, I more often find that I have more land than I would care for at times, though by then it doesn't tend to matter as much.
Overall the deck has an amazing record as I've played in many SCG Open side events against other competitive EDH players. Even so, I would like to try and filter through the control cards a bit more to ensure the ability to answer anything. I've never had an issue gaining control pieces and/or recurring them to gain 3-4 functions of control out of a single card, but I feel that there may be situations I haven't come across yet that I may have 0 answers to. Putting MORE control has simply tested terribly. It weakens the consistency of aggressive hand an tends to cause games to go out past turn 4 which isn't ideal. Again, the primary function of the control is to ensure my reloads happen (either by protecting Damia or protecting my Wheel effects), the ability to stop the opponent from going off is secondary.
Thanks for any and all suggestions
1x Bayou
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Crystal Vein
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Flooded Grove
1x Forbidden Orchard
3x Forest
1x Hinterland Harbor
2x Island
1x Mana Confluence
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Sunken Ruins
2x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
1x Twilight Mire
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Watery Grave
1x Woodland Cemetery
Creature (10)
1x Archaeomancer
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Palinchron
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Progenitor Mimic
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Snapcaster Mage
Sorcery (24)
1x Beacon of Tomorrows
1x Cultivate
1x Death Wish
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Farseek
1x Grim Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Kodama's Reach
1x Living Wish
1x Nature's Lore
1x Regrowth
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Three Visits
1x Time Spiral
1x Time Stretch
1x Time Warp
1x Timetwister
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Treasure Cruise
1x Villainous Wealth
1x Walk the Aeons
1x Whispering Madness
1x Windfall
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Dig Through Time
1x Frantic Search
1x Gush
1x Insidious Dreams
1x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Noxious Revival
1x Pact of Negation
1x Remand
1x Tainted Pact
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Worldly Tutor
Enchantment (5)
1x Burgeoning
1x Defense of the Heart
1x Exploration
1x Omniscience
1x Survival of the Fittest
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifact (11)
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Dimir Signet
1x Grim Monolith
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Memory Jar
1x Scroll Rack
1x Simic Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Voltaic Key
1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1x Knowledge Pool
1x Mana Reflection
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Mystic Snake
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Sunder
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Terastodon
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
If you run too many lands you run into the problem with not being able to put enough down to reload a vast amount. I can tell you that this deck is easily FASTER than most decks out there because you will wheel yourself into more acceleration. Beacon is a finishing piece, not a set up piece, so it's mana cost is largely irrelevant as getting an extra turn with damia on the field should win you the game every time.
My deck can power damia out on turn 1 (EXTREMELY RARE) turn 2 (Fairly rare) or turn 3 (much more often) and if you can't do it on turn 4 you've drawn horridly and you're having a very slow game.
Again the wheels are the MVPs of this deck. You draw multiple mana rocks or quick accel pieces and dump out your hand to bring damia in. If you're truly trying to get her out fast, anyone can tell you that you're not getting to 7 mana on turn 2 or 3 with out pretty much dedicating everything you have to the board state. Then you HOPE Damia sticks. If you plan to power out Damia turn 5 then sure, roll with more lands and hope you draw exploration or burgeoning with some green "go get basics" effects. If you plan to put her out sooner, dedicate to it and then patch up the part where when she dies, you lose. You have to recreate her effect for yourself. The only thing you care about is drawing back up to 7 so you can continue to accel. If you accelerate hard into Damia and the turn comes back to you and you haven't won, you're either facing 3 very heavy control decks, you've wiffed, or you're playing a much slower version. Nothing wrong with playing a slower version but mine isn't meant to be that way.
Beast Within is epic. Very useful removal and easily fetched using blue instant tutor spells as well as competitively costed; and targets anything i like. 10/10 would recommend to all other green edh decks
Chord of Calling - much better than anticipated. Enabled comboing off more consistently and gave me a 'second out' when i had my infinite combo set up. I have permanently dropped Villainous Wealth for this card. Wealth is good for a game, Chord is winning a game.
I have not seen Time Warp in a game yet to see if its more valid than Time Stretch.
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage