Hey Benjameen, just wanted to let you know I started with your exact list. I originally had an Azami list together that was a lot of fun, but it was kind of a one trick pony. This list gets to play a lot of blue cards I like and goes a little higher up on the curve and can play a longer game.
So after getting some games in, I've switched out Brainstorm for Ponder. I've been Brainstorm locked a couple times now, and I know we get to play fetchlands, thawing glaciers, and some tutors for shuffle effects, but when I'm low on cards and Brainstorm into two lands and a mana rock, it feels pretty bad to know the next few turns are duds. I think the ceiling for Brainstorm is higher than Ponder when things are going right, but the floor is definitely lower.
I also cut the Counterbalance. It was fun, but I haven't consistently had library manipulation to pair with it for it to be very effective. I've had it out a few games and countered 1 spell on a blind reveal. In it's place I added in Stifle which is a card I've been wanting in the list for awhile now. I love getting people with that card and there are definitely enough activated and triggered abilities around the table to nab something good.
As far as Recurring Insight goes, that card has been awesome for me. It single handedly got me back into games I had no business being in. I cast it last Tuesday following an overloaded Cyclonic Rift and went from hellbent to drawing 13 cards over two turns which allowed me to combo out one turn later.
Some other cards I'm considering are
All Is Dust - Another sweeper that won't touch most of my permanents seems nice.
Back to Basics - I definitely want this in the 99, but I need to acquire one first.
High Tide - I'm not too sure about this one, but a mana accelerant seems useful, though this probably isn't a true high tide deck
Intuition - I have one sitting around and really like the card. More tutors are always good.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card advantage machine. Another card sitting in a binder I want to play with.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur - Maybe a little too expensive, but even if he only lasts one turn, draw 7 is powerful.
Misdirection - Another pet card. A decent defensive spell, but maybe not the most useful as mass removal (Bane of Progress/Vandalblast) is a lot scarier than targeted removal.
Trickbind - Another Stifle/Disallow to throw people off.
Turnabout - I'd mostly likely run this card only if I was running High Tide, but with no Time Twister effects I'm probably not getting it's full potential.
Vendilion Clique - Cheap disruption, another wizard to draw off Azami, decent beater or chump blocker.
I'd love to hear some opinions on the cards and what you may cut to fit some of these in if any are worth it.
Hey Benjameen, just wanted to let you know I started with your exact list. I originally had an Azami list together that was a lot of fun, but it was kind of a one trick pony. This list gets to play a lot of blue cards I like and goes a little higher up on the curve and can play a longer game.
So after getting some games in, I've switched out Brainstorm for Ponder. I've been Brainstorm locked a couple times now, and I know we get to play fetchlands, thawing glaciers, and some tutors for shuffle effects, but when I'm low on cards and Brainstorm into two lands and a mana rock, it feels pretty bad to know the next few turns are duds. I think the ceiling for Brainstorm is higher than Ponder when things are going right, but the floor is definitely lower.
I also cut the Counterbalance. It was fun, but I haven't consistently had library manipulation to pair with it for it to be very effective. I've had it out a few games and countered 1 spell on a blind reveal. In it's place I added in Stifle which is a card I've been wanting in the list for awhile now. I love getting people with that card and there are definitely enough activated and triggered abilities around the table to nab something good.
As far as Recurring Insight goes, that card has been awesome for me. It single handedly got me back into games I had no business being in. I cast it last Tuesday following an overloaded Cyclonic Rift and went from hellbent to drawing 13 cards over two turns which allowed me to combo out one turn later.
Some other cards I'm considering are
All Is Dust - Another sweeper that won't touch most of my permanents seems nice.
Its nice, works, I use Ugin instead for more options.
Back to Basics - I definitely want this in the 99, but I need to acquire one first.
It just wins games. Use it, love it, win it.
High Tide - I'm not too sure about this one, but a mana accelerant seems useful, though this probably isn't a true high tide deck
Have yet to try it. Finding a hole for it is hard.
Intuition - I have one sitting around and really like the card. More tutors are always good.
Have not tried it.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card advantage machine. Another card sitting in a binder I want to play with.
Paints a target on you bad, have it but use in Atraxa
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur - Maybe a little too expensive, but even if he only lasts one turn, draw 7 is powerful.
Want to try it but finding a hole....
Misdirection - Another pet card. A decent defensive spell, but maybe not the most useful as mass removal (Bane of Progress/Vandalblast) is a lot scarier than targeted removal.
Great card if you don't have Stifle, Trickbind, or Dissallow
Trickbind - Another Stifle/Disallow to throw people off.
Use it, Won me many games against infinite combos
Turnabout - I'd mostly likely run this card only if I was running High Tide, but with no Time Twister effects I'm probably not getting it's full potential.
Have not tried it
Vendilion Clique - Cheap disruption, another wizard to draw off Azami, decent beater or chump blocker.
Great to remove the combo pieces with bounce spells. Can also get rid of crap I don't need. Counts towards patron wizard
I'd love to hear some opinions on the cards and what you may cut to fit some of these in if any are worth it.
@Driemer84
I play All is Dust in my list. It has been outstanding. Iona is a constant threat in our group and so many times I have been able to either Oblivion Stone, Memnarch, or All is Dust it. It also gets around indestructible permanents. I recommend it.
I also play Misdirection in my current list. Being in a heavy blue meta it is perfect for choosing new targets for counterspells. Paired alongside Force of Will and Pact of Negation, one of these three almost always protects my combo.
I picked up an all is dust and found very useful. Why not? The new humilty enchantment, overwhelming splendor plus Elish-norn is just scary. Ugin is great versus control for me but horrid against white.
Muzlemuffin, you were right after play testing more. Might kick ugin to the side board as a control matchup. I like the damage and board wipe.
Hey Benjameen, just wanted to let you know I started with your exact list. I originally had an Azami list together that was a lot of fun, but it was kind of a one trick pony. This list gets to play a lot of blue cards I like and goes a little higher up on the curve and can play a longer game.
So after getting some games in, I've switched out Brainstorm for Ponder. I've been Brainstorm locked a couple times now, and I know we get to play fetchlands, thawing glaciers, and some tutors for shuffle effects, but when I'm low on cards and Brainstorm into two lands and a mana rock, it feels pretty bad to know the next few turns are duds. I think the ceiling for Brainstorm is higher than Ponder when things are going right, but the floor is definitely lower.
I also cut the Counterbalance. It was fun, but I haven't consistently had library manipulation to pair with it for it to be very effective. I've had it out a few games and countered 1 spell on a blind reveal. In it's place I added in Stifle which is a card I've been wanting in the list for awhile now. I love getting people with that card and there are definitely enough activated and triggered abilities around the table to nab something good.
As far as Recurring Insight goes, that card has been awesome for me. It single handedly got me back into games I had no business being in. I cast it last Tuesday following an overloaded Cyclonic Rift and went from hellbent to drawing 13 cards over two turns which allowed me to combo out one turn later.
Some other cards I'm considering are
All Is Dust - Another sweeper that won't touch most of my permanents seems nice.
Back to Basics - I definitely want this in the 99, but I need to acquire one first.
High Tide - I'm not too sure about this one, but a mana accelerant seems useful, though this probably isn't a true high tide deck
Intuition - I have one sitting around and really like the card. More tutors are always good.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card advantage machine. Another card sitting in a binder I want to play with.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur - Maybe a little too expensive, but even if he only lasts one turn, draw 7 is powerful.
Misdirection - Another pet card. A decent defensive spell, but maybe not the most useful as mass removal (Bane of Progress/Vandalblast) is a lot scarier than targeted removal.
Trickbind - Another Stifle/Disallow to throw people off.
Turnabout - I'd mostly likely run this card only if I was running High Tide, but with no Time Twister effects I'm probably not getting it's full potential.
Vendilion Clique - Cheap disruption, another wizard to draw off Azami, decent beater or chump blocker.
I'd love to hear some opinions on the cards and what you may cut to fit some of these in if any are worth it.
Ponder is better because of the shuffle clause and I've actually found myself [CARD}Brainstorm[/CARD] locked a few times now. It's a very, very awkward feeling, so I might consider making the same kind of switch. The real sticking point I have in my mind Brainstorm's interaction with Counterbalance.
Speaking of, I've found Counterbalance to still be very useful. It counters at least two spells a game, frequently more. The interactions with fetch-lands and Top has, in my mind, been definitively proven and I can't imagine every cutting either piece at this point.
[CARD]Recurring Insight[/CARD} has been great for me every time I play it. I'm glad you're finding the same in games you play.
In regards to the list of cards to suggest:
Back to Basics - a meta dependent card, it absolutely obliterates my opponents. I've made room for it since and I highly suggest playing it if you play against the popular tri-colored decks.
High Tide[/cARD - I have mixed feelings about this card. It's great to try and win with [CARD}Palinchron, a card I no longer currently play, but it's great for enabling some stupid turns. Doubling mana sources is no joke, but having the effect for only one turn is tough to swallow. I've swapped it in and out of my list for a long time now, as there have been enough times where the card has been incredible and enough times where it's plain useless.
I'll offer my thoughts on the other cards later this week sometime.
@Driemer84
I play All is Dust in my list. It has been outstanding. Iona is a constant threat in our group and so many times I have been able to either Oblivion Stone, Memnarch, or All is Dust it. It also gets around indestructible permanents. I recommend it.
I also play Misdirection in my current list. Being in a heavy blue meta it is perfect for choosing new targets for counterspells. Paired alongside Force of Will and Pact of Negation, one of these three almost always protects my combo.
@bear
Enjoy the vacay.
I've found it increasingly necessary to run both Ugin and All is Dust. See my response below.
I picked up an all is dust and found very useful. Why not? The new humilty enchantment, overwhelming splendor plus Elish-norn is just scary. Ugin is great versus control for me but horrid against white.
Muzlemuffin, you were right after play testing more. Might kick ugin to the side board as a control matchup. I like the damage and board wipe.
Yeah, the new Hour of Devastation cards are really, really cool for a multitude of reasons. Combining Humility + Cursed Totem into a single card, albeit an expensive one, is very cool. It makes Academy Rector incredibly good, and I know I'm picking one up for my wife's Kaalia deck that runs the Rector.
I've actually found myself running All is Dust alongside Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I took out Mindslaver, as I found myself rarely tutoring for it or using it only once to devastate a single player and earn the ire of the rest of the table. Another way to wrath the board has since become pretty important with the rise of creature based decks in my playgroup, now that my wife and I play together. Yes, it's hella cool that my wife plays, and is also a good opponent. Much better at MTG than at Chess, haha.
On another note, keep up the discussion! It's great to see others contributing to the development of this thread. I appreciate it deeply.
Hi Wraith, I think Kefnet's Last Word, it is situationally effective. There are moments when a hard steal effect is useful enough to play it, i.e. stealing Animar in my playgroup . The more I think about it, the more useful it appears. I'll have to ruminate on it some more.
EDIT: Ok, so I've thought about the applications for Kefnet's Last Word and I think it largely depends on the generals that you are playing against. For example, if you cast the Last Word on the Zur the Enchanter that's been cast and its protection elements expended, than the card is fantastic. The same is true for other heavily general-centric decks a la Animar, Azami, ARcum, Yisan, etc. However, if you're going up against generals that care less about whether or not its general has been stolen, than the card becomes less good. I personally think that the loss of untapping lands is too costly, since you'll effectively be giving up a turn of interaction against 2-3 opponents in order to neuter a single one of them. I think the card is absolutely busted in 1v1, and it will probably see competitive play in tourneys there, but in multi-player I think the opportunity cost is too high.
On a different note, now that I'm at a place with internet, I've been able to clean up the OP with the correct list as well as update the card choices section so it's more in line with what the Decklist actually is. I've also trimmed some sections and corrected a few other grammar and spelling issues too. Vacation is great.
In addition to the other cards I was wondering about earlier, how does expedition map perform for you? It's useful to get academy ruins or inventors fair, but how valuable has that bee for you? I feel like a lot of the cards I'm considering running are a lot more powerful up front. Maybe umm undervaluing map's tutor effect though.
In addition to the other cards I was wondering about earlier, how does expedition map perform for you? It's useful to get academy ruins or inventors fair, but how valuable has that bee for you? I feel like a lot of the cards I'm considering running are a lot more powerful up front. Maybe umm undervaluing map's tutor effect though.
You know, I've found that the utility of Expedition Map hasn't been as effective as I want it to be. Consider it replaced! I will add in Torpor Orb in its place, since I really want to try that card in the list as it only invalidates three cards (Venser, Snapcaster Mage, and Trinket Mage if I remember correctly. I will gladly trade the occasional clash of those three cards with Torpor Orb in order to neuter many more cards of my opponent's.
In addition to the other cards I was wondering about earlier, how does expedition map perform for you? It's useful to get academy ruins or inventors fair, but how valuable has that bee for you? I feel like a lot of the cards I'm considering running are a lot more powerful up front. Maybe umm undervaluing map's tutor effect though.
You know, I've found that the utility of Expedition Map hasn't been as effective as I want it to be. Consider it replaced! I will add in Torpor Orb in its place, since I really want to try that card in the list as it only invalidates three cards (Venser, Snapcaster Mage, and Trinket Mage if I remember correctly. I will gladly trade the occasional clash of those three cards with Torpor Orb in order to neuter many more cards of my opponent's.
I have been loving Expedition Map. I find myself being able to generate infinite colorless and using this as a tutor to find a tutor (Inventor's Fair) for the kill combo. I guess I am usually tutoring Academy Ruins, Inventor's Fair, or Maze of Ith. Although...I truly want to cut it. But it has been performing over the top in recent and past games. It is the most underrated all-star in this deck.
@MuzzleMuffin
If your results are showing that the Map is still useful, carry on! I didn't often find myself drawing it or tutoring for it with Trinket Mage, so I decided to cut it in favor of a more proactive control piece like Torpor Orb. I'll test it out and see if it's more effective and useful than the guaranteed land drop that Expedition Map provides.
Has anyone had a chance to test Mirage Mirror? I watched the recent commander versus video and it kinda had me salivating a little bit.
Recently I am gearing up to apply for my masters so I have had little chance to test Memnarch (or play mtg). I'll definitely be lurking though and I will always do a report when I get a game in.
I'm not sure how relevant it will be, but I'm planning on running a Rashmi list with mirage mirroryhis Tuesday evening. Hopefully I'll be able to cast it and let you know how it works out. And hopefully I'll be able to draw some idea of how it may apply in Memnarch.
@Break3r
Not off-hand, but I can ask him for his decklist and PM it to you once I see him. FYI, that might be a week or two based on our schedules.
@Driemer + @MuzzleMuffin
Please let me know how Mirage Mirror plays out. It has some very interesting applications in EDH, and I've seen first-hand how powerful Faerie Artisans, so being able to copy an opponent's best creature seems really good.
I've been scouting around at other cEDH lists in the internet, and I've come across some very interesting tech. Aetherflux Reservoir seems to be making some waves in Storm lists, and I think that this deck is in a prime position to take advantage of it. Paradox Engine becomes a key card in the list as does Shimmer Myr. I'm tossing around a few ideas to consider and gather opinions on, so I'll post again in a bit.
So, I finally acquired the last fast mana rock for EDH: Mox Diamond. I had previously grabbed a Mox Opal when Affinity was on the downswing for like $25, and Chrome Mox isn't terribly expensive.
With that being said, it might be time to reconsider the deck's base strategy. Infinite mana is still the go-to strategy, but which is the best? Should we focus on only a couple of ways and add more redundancy and card draw to find it faster? I've been watching some games on YouTube (Laboratory Maniacs shout-out! Subscribe to them if you like cEDH!), and draw 7's are clearly their preferred card advantage spells. However, I dislike the fact that it gives your opponent's new options too. While it's definitely randomized, for the most part, it seems like a risk-increasing decision to add draw-7's in the deck. What is everyone's thoughts?
I want to add another couple of cards, namely Kefnet the Mindful and Planar Portal, but I don't know what more to cut. I've been less and less impressed with Evacuation, but I'll give it a couple of more games of testing.
So, I finally acquired the last fast mana rock for EDH: Mox Diamond. I had previously grabbed a Mox Opal when Affinity was on the downswing for like $25, and Chrome Mox isn't terribly expensive.
With that being said, it might be time to reconsider the deck's base strategy. Infinite mana is still the go-to strategy, but which is the best? Should we focus on only a couple of ways and add more redundancy and card draw to find it faster? I've been watching some games on YouTube (Laboratory Maniacs shout-out! Subscribe to them if you like cEDH!), and draw 7's are clearly their preferred card advantage spells. However, I dislike the fact that it gives your opponent's new options too. While it's definitely randomized, for the most part, it seems like a risk-increasing decision to add draw-7's in the deck. What is everyone's thoughts?
I really like the fast mana. I know it is extremely good but I was always always turned off by the discard clause of Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond. Perhaps now I should finally invest in those sweet rocks. Are they going in Memnarch? Do you know what in particular you are going to cut?
I feel like this decks most powerful infinites are the two mana combo Monoliths...at least in my testing. With so many ways to abuse colorless I am almost always happy to see them. But perhaps the Paradox Engine combo could be the next, if not THE, best thing. I still like to keep a high dense amount of inifinite combos. Mainly:
Grand Architext + Pili Pala
Basalt/Grim Monolith + Power Artifact(Rings of Brighthearth for Basalt Monolith)
Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal
Honorable Mention:
Metal Worker = Staff of Domination
(This one hardly shows up...but has still happened. Both pieces are good on their own as well.
I feel like we should have 3 main ways of going infinite with pieces overlapping. A perfect example of this would be Power Artifact and Rings of Brighthearth to Basalt Monolith.
Planar Portal was a great card in my initial lists. It is slow but I am a huge fan of it...I also just love that artwork. So wacky.
@MuzzleMuffin
I've actually found that the Monolith combos are the ones I least like to see, since I've found myself with infinite colorless mana and nothing to do with it multiple times. I've actually cut the Power Artifact combos in favor of the Storm package, and I'm really liking it. The fast mana rocks are now in, as per the description below.
So I've tested out the changes to Memnarch, and I must say that they are very, very promising. Adding in the Storm package (Paradox Engine, Aetherflux Reservoir, Mind's Desire) along with Pull from Tomorrow has created some incredible new lines of play. I've goldfished into a T3 Storm win a few times now on tappedout.net and Paradox Engine + Capsize has generated infinite mana for me a few times (you do have to have a ton of mana rocks, at least 1 of which costs CMC 1 or less). Gilded Lotus is now one of the most important cards in the deck, since it generates the coveted U that the deck needs in order to cast cards.
I haven't missed any of the other cards I've cut, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon has still proven to be one of the best control cards ever printed. I haven't missed Evacuation and Shimmer Myr has been a win-more kind of card in my hand. I'd much rather it be a mana-rock or another card-draw spell, so I'm considering Everflowing Chalice or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to increase additional Storm lines.
The deck also has the normal infinite mana lines that make Memnarch so good. I still prefer to run Memnarch as my general, even with the addition of the Storm package, because there are moments when some Storm lines fizzle out with a ton of excess mana, which I can then convert into stolen cards and take control of the game. I'm really, really enjoying the new additions, and I'll have to update the Primer after I test out a couple of paper games to see if this new decklist will be the one I prefer moving forward.
Played against my brother's Athreos, God of Passage hatebear/recursion/combo list, Momir Vig ETB combo, Mayael competitive big dumb stuff, and super janky Nicol Bolas control. I'm on the play with 2 islands, riptide labratory, basalt monolith, coldsteel heart, swan song. I decide to keep. The sight of two rocks made me feel good along with some interaction in Swan Song. Athreos drops Eidolon of Rhetoric which slows down all our opponents. I think its great! As long as I keep up some interaction I will be able to protect my rocks and continue to develop my board. Somemone will eventually deal with the Eidolon. Momir Vig is ramping, scary at the moment but he keeps tapping out with nothing but ramp spells to play. Mayael is notably tame and Nicol Bolas is doing lord knows what. Athreos, landing an early Serra Ascendent is clocking people and gaining life. People are focusing on him when he drops Aven Mindcensor totally messing with an opponents fetches...great, not a card I wanted to see. I have been sitting on a Tezzeret the Seeker waiting for the Momir player to tap out. Mayael finally hits critical mass of lands and is pumping out fatties Blightsteel Collossus, Inferno Titan, etc. My Maze of Ith deters Mayael from swinging at me (one of the best perks of the card, all though it has a great effect the true power is someone seeing it and thinking that its not even worth it to attack. Maybe Propaganda or Forcefield should be something I am looking into?). Nicol Bolas wipes the board and I know its time to strike. At Nicol Bolas end step, I untap my Basalt Monolith. I play Tezzeret. Nicol Bolas has the only answer and he attempts the ol' Noodle-Finger-Counterspell. Knowing Nicol Bolas is now out of useable mana, I respond with Swan Song. -3 for Rings of Brighthearth, and announce my attempt at infinite mana. Expedition map into Inventors Fair for land for turn and tutor up Staff of Domination. Draw the whole deck, plop down Mycocynth Lattice, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, and proceed to Blue Sun's Zenith everyone for game.
Overall this was just another classic example of Memnarch stealing the game. If it wasn't for the Athreos player accumulating tons of advantage I may have been the focus. When playing this deck I always recommend people to consider when to be explosive. Going coldsteel heart into basalt monolith isn't extremely threatening. But going crazy with a bunch of artifacts all at once should never be the move unless it is to win (or there is something to gain).
@MuzzleMuffin
Excellent game report! That is a great example of waiting for the opportune moment. I'm interested in that Athreos list, since it sounds like it has a lot of hate-bears and I'm trying to update my wife's Kaalia list for cEDH games with my playgroup. I never even thought about Expedition Map being able to tutor out the win in that way, well done. I'll check out your list and see what cards I like in your list, Muzzle. I'll also try and update the Primer with your most current list since you're featured there.
So I've played several games with the new Memnarch configuration and I think I'm sold. The Storm package seems to fit very well with the deck and adds some explosive power to the deck. Pull from Tomorrow has been incredible in my games and I don't think I would replace the card. I will be updating the Primer accordingly, which will take a great deal of time.
So I was playing a game against my wife, who is on Kaalia, and an interesting corner case came up. She had a Kaalia on the battlefield, and I had a Paradox Engine, a tapped Mana Vault, and some lands. I had Isochron Scepter in hand and was trying to find a way to kill Kaalia. I Mystical Tutored into Reality Shift at EOT. And I realized then that with the Engine in play, Mana Vault, and with Reality Shift imprinted on Isochron Scepter, I could deck her a la Tasigur combo i.e. Beast Within, Reality Shift, and infinite mana and Tasigur, the Golden Fang's ability. I chose not to deck her, because she's my wife and she hates losing to "stupid cheaty ways", but I feel like that's important to share as another semi-infinite combo (it requires your opponent's to have at least a single creature).
EDIT: I also have realized that this the same combo line exists for a Scepter imprinted with any of the following: Impulse, Brainstorm, Reality Shift, or Cyclonic Rift. Impulse or Brainstorm will win the game, allowing you to draw through your deck; Reality Shift decks any opponent who has a creature in play; and Cyclonic Rift will ensure that your opponents never have a board state.
Paradox Engine has been awesome, even if it doesn't generate a high Storm count. Being able to generate a huge amount of mana by casting a few spells and untapping mana rocks has been a incredible, because you can then dump the mana into Memnarch's activated ability. Having Memnarch be colorless has actually been very relevant in increasing the Storm count and mana production, since colorless mana is so easy to generate for this deck, and it has allowed me to steal multiple permanents a turn and cripple my opponent's board states. I've noticed an increase in the games where I don't need to get infinite mana in order to win. Simply stealing enough permanents, with enough mana, from each opponent to cripple their resource production for a turn usually allows a window of opportunity to steal the rest of their resources on my subsequent turns and lock them out of the game with Memnarch's ability. I think this is a concept that isn't explained enough in the Primer that needs to be elaborated on since it's a very consistent way to close out the game that doesn't seem to get talked about enough.
@MuzzleMuffin
Your deck description on TappedOut...hilarious. I'll give it a +1 when I login again. How has Oblivion Stone been for you? I've found that I like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon a little better since it never destroys my mana rocks, whereas the Stone does.
I keep on adding more to the description. Some make zero sense...but the inner Artist can't be killed...thanks for the +1.
As of right now I don't have an Ugin. But the main advantage of having Oblivion Stone is that it is easily searchable with all my tutors. Even Drift of Phantasms can find it. I do concede that there have been non-zero instances where I have had to blow up my board. However, my board may have consisted of two rocks at that point in time. Mainly due to a slow start or because my board is already getting attacked. I never throw it out early, if I do I am almost always targeted for just having an instant speed boardwipe. I play it almost only when I need it, though it may be correct to plop it down and get some counters on your permanents. It used to be a Nevinyraal's Disk when I had the Darksteel Forge combo in. But since taking out the forge I found that having the ability to blow up the board on the turn I play it to be extremely valuable.
I know you have said before that you love the power of Paradox Engine with your storm pieces. But do you think a healthy swap of my Unwinding Clock for a Paradox Engine would be better? I don't use any storm combos and I understand how powerful of a card Paradox Engine is but I am worried that I may not fully be able to utilize its potential combos.
I guess when it comes down to it, with Unwinding Clock I am able to keep up Memdaddy's ability while with the engine I need to cast spells to generate the mana. A pro with Engine is that I can ramp up on my own turn. What do you think would be better for a list not positioned to abuse its combos (I know we can do those wacky/awesome Isochron Schepter / Reality Shift combos, etc.)?
@MuzzleMuffin
I think they are both comparable, the Unwinding CLock and the Engine, but I really like the Engine for the stupidly explosive turns it facilitates. With the amount of mana that you can generate in a single turn with the density of mana rocks in the deck, you can sometimes steal a whole turn cycle's worth of permanents with Memnarch. The Clock is less dependent on other spells being cast, but I think the explosiveness of the Engine is really powerful. Generally speaking, with the amount of instant speed answers that you can hold up, the Engine's drawback of being dependent on spells is negligible, and with the cheap mana rocks being added in the explosiveness of the deck is a shot of adrenaline in the deck.
So after getting some games in, I've switched out Brainstorm for Ponder. I've been Brainstorm locked a couple times now, and I know we get to play fetchlands, thawing glaciers, and some tutors for shuffle effects, but when I'm low on cards and Brainstorm into two lands and a mana rock, it feels pretty bad to know the next few turns are duds. I think the ceiling for Brainstorm is higher than Ponder when things are going right, but the floor is definitely lower.
I also cut the Counterbalance. It was fun, but I haven't consistently had library manipulation to pair with it for it to be very effective. I've had it out a few games and countered 1 spell on a blind reveal. In it's place I added in Stifle which is a card I've been wanting in the list for awhile now. I love getting people with that card and there are definitely enough activated and triggered abilities around the table to nab something good.
As far as Recurring Insight goes, that card has been awesome for me. It single handedly got me back into games I had no business being in. I cast it last Tuesday following an overloaded Cyclonic Rift and went from hellbent to drawing 13 cards over two turns which allowed me to combo out one turn later.
Some other cards I'm considering are
I'd love to hear some opinions on the cards and what you may cut to fit some of these in if any are worth it.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
I play All is Dust in my list. It has been outstanding. Iona is a constant threat in our group and so many times I have been able to either Oblivion Stone, Memnarch, or All is Dust it. It also gets around indestructible permanents. I recommend it.
I also play Misdirection in my current list. Being in a heavy blue meta it is perfect for choosing new targets for counterspells. Paired alongside Force of Will and Pact of Negation, one of these three almost always protects my combo.
@bear
Enjoy the vacay.
Muzlemuffin, you were right after play testing more. Might kick ugin to the side board as a control matchup. I like the damage and board wipe.
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
Ponder is better because of the shuffle clause and I've actually found myself [CARD}Brainstorm[/CARD] locked a few times now. It's a very, very awkward feeling, so I might consider making the same kind of switch. The real sticking point I have in my mind Brainstorm's interaction with Counterbalance.
Speaking of, I've found Counterbalance to still be very useful. It counters at least two spells a game, frequently more. The interactions with fetch-lands and Top has, in my mind, been definitively proven and I can't imagine every cutting either piece at this point.
[CARD]Recurring Insight[/CARD} has been great for me every time I play it. I'm glad you're finding the same in games you play.
In regards to the list of cards to suggest:
I'll offer my thoughts on the other cards later this week sometime.
I've found it increasingly necessary to run both Ugin and All is Dust. See my response below.
Yeah, the new Hour of Devastation cards are really, really cool for a multitude of reasons. Combining Humility + Cursed Totem into a single card, albeit an expensive one, is very cool. It makes Academy Rector incredibly good, and I know I'm picking one up for my wife's Kaalia deck that runs the Rector.
I've actually found myself running All is Dust alongside Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I took out Mindslaver, as I found myself rarely tutoring for it or using it only once to devastate a single player and earn the ire of the rest of the table. Another way to wrath the board has since become pretty important with the rise of creature based decks in my playgroup, now that my wife and I play together. Yes, it's hella cool that my wife plays, and is also a good opponent. Much better at MTG than at Chess, haha.
On another note, keep up the discussion! It's great to see others contributing to the development of this thread. I appreciate it deeply.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Multiplayer Decks- Memnarch - Animar, Soul of Elements - Zur, the Enchanter - Atraxa, Praetors' Voice - Food Chain Tazri - Teysa Karlov
Modern BUMill and Bant Spirits.
Thank you Xenphire for the signature!
EDIT: Ok, so I've thought about the applications for Kefnet's Last Word and I think it largely depends on the generals that you are playing against. For example, if you cast the Last Word on the Zur the Enchanter that's been cast and its protection elements expended, than the card is fantastic. The same is true for other heavily general-centric decks a la Animar, Azami, ARcum, Yisan, etc. However, if you're going up against generals that care less about whether or not its general has been stolen, than the card becomes less good. I personally think that the loss of untapping lands is too costly, since you'll effectively be giving up a turn of interaction against 2-3 opponents in order to neuter a single one of them. I think the card is absolutely busted in 1v1, and it will probably see competitive play in tourneys there, but in multi-player I think the opportunity cost is too high.
On a different note, now that I'm at a place with internet, I've been able to clean up the OP with the correct list as well as update the card choices section so it's more in line with what the Decklist actually is. I've also trimmed some sections and corrected a few other grammar and spelling issues too. Vacation is great.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
You know, I've found that the utility of Expedition Map hasn't been as effective as I want it to be. Consider it replaced! I will add in Torpor Orb in its place, since I really want to try that card in the list as it only invalidates three cards (Venser, Snapcaster Mage, and Trinket Mage if I remember correctly. I will gladly trade the occasional clash of those three cards with Torpor Orb in order to neuter many more cards of my opponent's.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I have been loving Expedition Map. I find myself being able to generate infinite colorless and using this as a tutor to find a tutor (Inventor's Fair) for the kill combo. I guess I am usually tutoring Academy Ruins, Inventor's Fair, or Maze of Ith. Although...I truly want to cut it. But it has been performing over the top in recent and past games. It is the most underrated all-star in this deck.
If your results are showing that the Map is still useful, carry on! I didn't often find myself drawing it or tutoring for it with Trinket Mage, so I decided to cut it in favor of a more proactive control piece like Torpor Orb. I'll test it out and see if it's more effective and useful than the guaranteed land drop that Expedition Map provides.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Recently I am gearing up to apply for my masters so I have had little chance to test Memnarch (or play mtg). I'll definitely be lurking though and I will always do a report when I get a game in.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Padeem, Consul of Innovation - Artifact value/combo.
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant - Sultai zombie reanimator.
Not off-hand, but I can ask him for his decklist and PM it to you once I see him. FYI, that might be a week or two based on our schedules.
@Driemer + @MuzzleMuffin
Please let me know how Mirage Mirror plays out. It has some very interesting applications in EDH, and I've seen first-hand how powerful Faerie Artisans, so being able to copy an opponent's best creature seems really good.
I've been scouting around at other cEDH lists in the internet, and I've come across some very interesting tech. Aetherflux Reservoir seems to be making some waves in Storm lists, and I think that this deck is in a prime position to take advantage of it. Paradox Engine becomes a key card in the list as does Shimmer Myr. I'm tossing around a few ideas to consider and gather opinions on, so I'll post again in a bit.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
With that being said, it might be time to reconsider the deck's base strategy. Infinite mana is still the go-to strategy, but which is the best? Should we focus on only a couple of ways and add more redundancy and card draw to find it faster? I've been watching some games on YouTube (Laboratory Maniacs shout-out! Subscribe to them if you like cEDH!), and draw 7's are clearly their preferred card advantage spells. However, I dislike the fact that it gives your opponent's new options too. While it's definitely randomized, for the most part, it seems like a risk-increasing decision to add draw-7's in the deck. What is everyone's thoughts?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
-Counterbalance
-Padeem, Consul of Innovation
-Power Artifact
-Minamo, School at Water's Edge
-Unwinding Clock
+Aetherflux Reservoir
+Paradox Engine
+Pull from Tomorrow
+Voltaic Key
+Shimmer Myr
I want to add another couple of cards, namely Kefnet the Mindful and Planar Portal, but I don't know what more to cut. I've been less and less impressed with Evacuation, but I'll give it a couple of more games of testing.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
I really like the fast mana. I know it is extremely good but I was always always turned off by the discard clause of Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond. Perhaps now I should finally invest in those sweet rocks. Are they going in Memnarch? Do you know what in particular you are going to cut?
I feel like this decks most powerful infinites are the two mana combo Monoliths...at least in my testing. With so many ways to abuse colorless I am almost always happy to see them. But perhaps the Paradox Engine combo could be the next, if not THE, best thing. I still like to keep a high dense amount of inifinite combos. Mainly:
Grand Architext + Pili Pala
Basalt/Grim Monolith + Power Artifact(Rings of Brighthearth for Basalt Monolith)
Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal
Honorable Mention:
Metal Worker = Staff of Domination
(This one hardly shows up...but has still happened. Both pieces are good on their own as well.
I feel like we should have 3 main ways of going infinite with pieces overlapping. A perfect example of this would be Power Artifact and Rings of Brighthearth to Basalt Monolith.
Planar Portal was a great card in my initial lists. It is slow but I am a huge fan of it...I also just love that artwork. So wacky.
I've actually found that the Monolith combos are the ones I least like to see, since I've found myself with infinite colorless mana and nothing to do with it multiple times. I've actually cut the Power Artifact combos in favor of the Storm package, and I'm really liking it. The fast mana rocks are now in, as per the description below.
So I've tested out the changes to Memnarch, and I must say that they are very, very promising. Adding in the Storm package (Paradox Engine, Aetherflux Reservoir, Mind's Desire) along with Pull from Tomorrow has created some incredible new lines of play. I've goldfished into a T3 Storm win a few times now on tappedout.net and Paradox Engine + Capsize has generated infinite mana for me a few times (you do have to have a ton of mana rocks, at least 1 of which costs CMC 1 or less). Gilded Lotus is now one of the most important cards in the deck, since it generates the coveted U that the deck needs in order to cast cards.
I haven't missed any of the other cards I've cut, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon has still proven to be one of the best control cards ever printed. I haven't missed Evacuation and Shimmer Myr has been a win-more kind of card in my hand. I'd much rather it be a mana-rock or another card-draw spell, so I'm considering Everflowing Chalice or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to increase additional Storm lines.
The deck also has the normal infinite mana lines that make Memnarch so good. I still prefer to run Memnarch as my general, even with the addition of the Storm package, because there are moments when some Storm lines fizzle out with a ton of excess mana, which I can then convert into stolen cards and take control of the game. I'm really, really enjoying the new additions, and I'll have to update the Primer after I test out a couple of paper games to see if this new decklist will be the one I prefer moving forward.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Overall this was just another classic example of Memnarch stealing the game. If it wasn't for the Athreos player accumulating tons of advantage I may have been the focus. When playing this deck I always recommend people to consider when to be explosive. Going coldsteel heart into basalt monolith isn't extremely threatening. But going crazy with a bunch of artifacts all at once should never be the move unless it is to win (or there is something to gain).
My current list is in my Sig.
Excellent game report! That is a great example of waiting for the opportune moment. I'm interested in that Athreos list, since it sounds like it has a lot of hate-bears and I'm trying to update my wife's Kaalia list for cEDH games with my playgroup. I never even thought about Expedition Map being able to tutor out the win in that way, well done. I'll check out your list and see what cards I like in your list, Muzzle. I'll also try and update the Primer with your most current list since you're featured there.
So I've played several games with the new Memnarch configuration and I think I'm sold. The Storm package seems to fit very well with the deck and adds some explosive power to the deck. Pull from Tomorrow has been incredible in my games and I don't think I would replace the card. I will be updating the Primer accordingly, which will take a great deal of time.
So I was playing a game against my wife, who is on Kaalia, and an interesting corner case came up. She had a Kaalia on the battlefield, and I had a Paradox Engine, a tapped Mana Vault, and some lands. I had Isochron Scepter in hand and was trying to find a way to kill Kaalia. I Mystical Tutored into Reality Shift at EOT. And I realized then that with the Engine in play, Mana Vault, and with Reality Shift imprinted on Isochron Scepter, I could deck her a la Tasigur combo i.e. Beast Within, Reality Shift, and infinite mana and Tasigur, the Golden Fang's ability. I chose not to deck her, because she's my wife and she hates losing to "stupid cheaty ways", but I feel like that's important to share as another semi-infinite combo (it requires your opponent's to have at least a single creature).
EDIT: I also have realized that this the same combo line exists for a Scepter imprinted with any of the following: Impulse, Brainstorm, Reality Shift, or Cyclonic Rift. Impulse or Brainstorm will win the game, allowing you to draw through your deck; Reality Shift decks any opponent who has a creature in play; and Cyclonic Rift will ensure that your opponents never have a board state.
Paradox Engine has been awesome, even if it doesn't generate a high Storm count. Being able to generate a huge amount of mana by casting a few spells and untapping mana rocks has been a incredible, because you can then dump the mana into Memnarch's activated ability. Having Memnarch be colorless has actually been very relevant in increasing the Storm count and mana production, since colorless mana is so easy to generate for this deck, and it has allowed me to steal multiple permanents a turn and cripple my opponent's board states. I've noticed an increase in the games where I don't need to get infinite mana in order to win. Simply stealing enough permanents, with enough mana, from each opponent to cripple their resource production for a turn usually allows a window of opportunity to steal the rest of their resources on my subsequent turns and lock them out of the game with Memnarch's ability. I think this is a concept that isn't explained enough in the Primer that needs to be elaborated on since it's a very consistent way to close out the game that doesn't seem to get talked about enough.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Your deck description on TappedOut...hilarious. I'll give it a +1 when I login again. How has Oblivion Stone been for you? I've found that I like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon a little better since it never destroys my mana rocks, whereas the Stone does.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
As of right now I don't have an Ugin. But the main advantage of having Oblivion Stone is that it is easily searchable with all my tutors. Even Drift of Phantasms can find it. I do concede that there have been non-zero instances where I have had to blow up my board. However, my board may have consisted of two rocks at that point in time. Mainly due to a slow start or because my board is already getting attacked. I never throw it out early, if I do I am almost always targeted for just having an instant speed boardwipe. I play it almost only when I need it, though it may be correct to plop it down and get some counters on your permanents. It used to be a Nevinyraal's Disk when I had the Darksteel Forge combo in. But since taking out the forge I found that having the ability to blow up the board on the turn I play it to be extremely valuable.
I know you have said before that you love the power of Paradox Engine with your storm pieces. But do you think a healthy swap of my Unwinding Clock for a Paradox Engine would be better? I don't use any storm combos and I understand how powerful of a card Paradox Engine is but I am worried that I may not fully be able to utilize its potential combos.
I guess when it comes down to it, with Unwinding Clock I am able to keep up Memdaddy's ability while with the engine I need to cast spells to generate the mana. A pro with Engine is that I can ramp up on my own turn. What do you think would be better for a list not positioned to abuse its combos (I know we can do those wacky/awesome Isochron Schepter / Reality Shift combos, etc.)?
I think they are both comparable, the Unwinding CLock and the Engine, but I really like the Engine for the stupidly explosive turns it facilitates. With the amount of mana that you can generate in a single turn with the density of mana rocks in the deck, you can sometimes steal a whole turn cycle's worth of permanents with Memnarch. The Clock is less dependent on other spells being cast, but I think the explosiveness of the Engine is really powerful. Generally speaking, with the amount of instant speed answers that you can hold up, the Engine's drawback of being dependent on spells is negligible, and with the cheap mana rocks being added in the explosiveness of the deck is a shot of adrenaline in the deck.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager