A few weeks ago I was trying to figure out a decent deck to run in full out competitive 4 man pods. Various ideas where thrown out, the usual Hermit, Doomsday, and ANT. I started talking with Moxnix about ANT and he suggested Grixis, with Jeleva, and we have been theory crafting it over on another thread, but I wanted to give it its own thread.
I like your list. Great choices on the budget issue replacements.
I'm thinking about finding a spot for Bubbling Muck in my list. With High Tide it means Underground Sea and Watery Grave each tap for 3 mana. With Urborg out it means all your lands at least tap for two.
I'm also thinking about Brain Freeze. But not to hit opponents. It can feed the yard for Yawg Win and cycle my deck if I'm whiffing. For instance, in a situation where I'm just hitting land or cards I want to save for storm and my Top is telling me my next three aren't useful. I can BF myself dump those to yard then hopefully find Ad Naus, Mind's Desire or some wheels (preferrebly Spiral in that situation).
I have yet to actually play test but from what I've seen of storm decks on youtube the optimal land count is around 30-34. The lower you can afford to go the better because you don't want to get land flooded on your Mind's Desire or Ad Nauseam. You have to be aggressive with your mulligans and try to get into 2-3 lands and a wheel or ramp card. If you can afford to run them here we need a full compliment of fetches when you settle on your base. Thinning lands out for Desire and AD is necessary.
I think I'm going to try starting with 32 lands then go up or down from there. Basically in a deck like this you have to accept never getting off the ground or gassing out during your storm attempt a fair amount of the time. So you run risk reward with fewer lands to make sure you don't gas out. But that makes it more likely that you don't even get started.
For starters, A very cool looking list. I'd love to see how it plays out
As a general, I can recommand Thraximundar as he can finish games without much support and he can truly act as a backup wincon if you encounter any storm hate.
In competitive meta, won't Inquisition of Kozilek act as a #3 Thoughtseize? Also, while kind of flamboyant and vulenrable Hatred can win you games out of nowhere as you already run some creatures no one will bother to look at/kill (Memnite, Ornithopter etc...).
You already run Turnabout, so you can run Reiterate for the infinite mana/storm combo. Can the deck reach 10 mana through permanents consistently?
I like your list. Great choices on the budget issue replacements.
LOL!!! this is your list minus the ones I have not traded for yet. I am still working on the rest. I am not sure I will drop below 35 land in a 3 color deck though, I have get some really bad shuffles.
I am debating adding Slaughter Pact, its in my Oloro build, but its rarely used other than a free cast.
@Hatred: If I have to attack I have already lost, that being said Thrax is not a bad idea for a back-up plan.
LOL!!! this is your list minus the ones I have not traded for yet. I am still working on the rest. I am not sure I will drop below 35 land in a 3 color deck though, I have get some really bad shuffles.
I am debating adding Slaughter Pact, its in my Oloro build, but its rarely used other than a free cast.
@Hatred: If I have to attack I have already lost, that being said Thrax is not a bad idea for a back-up plan.
I wish I had enough for a Candelabra, but that is a pipe dream at this point.
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I know, that's why I like it
Mostly what I mean is you made a good choice or two in your replacements for money cards like Twister and G Tutor.
Slaughter Pact is a good storm card. As long as there is a target. You should be winning that turn so paying it's cost next turn should never be an issue.
I liked your idea of the 0 CMC Kobolds in the other thread. You could maybe replace land with one or two of those. I also think you underestimate Blood Pet by cutting it from my list. It's essentially the same as a 0 cost creature.
I wish I had a Candelabra as well. Such a great storm card, especially with High Tide tech (infinite mana? Okay). I would proxy it but I tend to only proxy cards I own at least one copy of. Especially the big money cards that upset people when you play them.
The more I think about Brain Freeze the more I think I may run the card. It can eliminate a player(s) you know doesn't run Eldrazi and it can save your ass when whiffing. I was watching a 5c storm deck on youtube last night and he was whiffing hard. He had Top out and the top 3 were constantly crap. The whole time he had Freeze in his hand and I was like..."Freeze yourself and try to deck cycle into some useful cards". He ended up losing because he never drew into something to start his storm with. This is also part of why fetches are so important. We can't play draw go for long in these decks.
If he is already playing kobolds Skullclamp can draw you a massive number of cards (Although it might be a little mana intensive...).
The thing is that in a storm deck that isn't how you want to use your mana for the most part. You don't cast the kobolds (or whatever creatures) until you think you are ready to try to storm out that turn. So all your available mana should be for casting spells not equipping. At that point you should be good on draw. Ad Nauseam, Mind's Desire and wheels should be doing all that work for you at that point.
With the kobolds (if you play them) you can use the Clamp to yard them for a second cast off YawgWin which is a bonus and potentially worthwhile strategy.
It's a nice way to raise your storm count and draw cards but using that mana to equip might run you out of gas to quickly. Though it sounds interesting enough to test at some point.
EDIT: I just noticed Spellbook in your list Trancer, must have overlooked it before. I was just setting my mana base and was wondering if Reliquary Tower was worth it. Since our hand probably won't ever be above 7 except during our storm turn I didn't think I needed it. But I like Spellbook. You may never actually needs it's effect but 0 cost is 0 cost. And it can be recycled with Hurkyl's. I might look into it.
Btw I was going to go with 3 duals, 3 shocks, 9 fetches, Urborg, Boseiju, Command Tower, Drowned Catacomb, Sulfur Falls (don't see the need for Dragonskull Summit) and basics (heavy on island) for my land base. I don't see the need for many utility lands. I only have one Ancient Tomb but that will probably go in if I get another.
Right now I'm linking to this thread in my signature since we are theory crafting together here. Once this thread starts slowing down and we get set on our lists I'll make a seperate thread for my Sol'Kanar list since I don't want to "encroach" on this thread until it's run it's course.
I have been watching Moxnix videos for about 3 hours now, my brain hurts, how does he think so far ahead?
As for Spellbook, in my meta if I leave stuff in the yard too long someone will come along with a Bojuka Bog, so I am thinking Spellbook and Tower, but I think its mostly a meta call. Moxnix mostly just dumps stuff in the yard, if I get good enough with this deck to play it as fast as he does, I can probably pull the "training wheels" off and run without.
Tidesprout Tyrant is really fat, but it can end games fast... thinking about it.
(and you didnt miss spellbook before, I have been digging through my boxes and as i find something interesting, I add it. I will worry about a change log after I start playing it.)
I have been watching Moxnix videos for about 3 hours now, my brain hurts, how does he think so far ahead?
As for Spellbook, in my meta if I leave stuff in the yard too long someone will come along with a Bojuka Bog, so I am thinking Spellbook and Tower, but I think its mostly a meta call. Moxnix mostly just dumps stuff in the yard, if I get good enough with this deck to play it as fast as he does, I can probably pull the "training wheels" off and run without.
Tidesprout Tyrant is really fat, but it can end games fast... thinking about it.
(and you didnt miss spellbook before, I have been digging through my boxes and as i find something interesting, I add it. I will worry about a change log after I start playing it.)
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Good point on the graveyard hate. I don't really plan on dumping to yard except on the turn I plan to storm but I haven't actually played it yet (just ordered some key cards today, might be up and running by Friday).
Yeah, watching Mox's storm vids is fun and really hypes me up for the style but it can be intimidating how much you have to plan ahead.
Tidespout is so good but I'm not sure I want to play something with such a high CMC. Pretty much all our cards over 3 CMC accomplish specific goals: they draw us cards, get us more mana for casting or they storm. While Tidespout can be a win condition he doesn't actually add to any of the above functions. So the question becomes, can we afford the risk from Ad Nauseam to run him? If we play the deck such that we try to tutor him before Ad Nauseam then I think he is worth the spot.
(Note: quick forum response times due to being bored out of my mind waiting in a doctors office as my mother's chauffeur)
If your meta is cool with wish boards then go for it. I'm not sure I like Insight here which is funny because I love that card. I'd rather play Future Sight like TrappedUnderIce suggests.
Okay I checked around apparently Burning Wish does not do what I wanted it to do, apparently "exile" is now considered its own zone and not "outside the game" so Burning Wish will not grab a used Time Spiral, ::sad panda face::
@Future Sight: The only time I saw it in the video's, Moxnix pitched it to untap something. Seems like it would be very dependent on other cards to keep the flow going, and could get you stuck in a land pocket in midstream while trying to storm.
It occurs to me that Nekusar might actually be the best commander for this. Him + the wheels can be an emergency win con or soften people up for Tendrils.
Some cards I personally love that I don't see here are: faithless looting - The ability to draw 2 from the graveyard has saved me before and I know this is storm but I felt like asking about it. Winds of Change - Helps you get rid of a whiffed hand or in opening hand to just annoy everyone. Chromatic Sphere & Chromatic Star- I know it is 1 mana to fix mana but it also draws a card which can be helpful.
I normally don't play storm so Idk how good these are but figured i'd suggest
No jeleva is better IMO you don't cast your general if your winning and if your losing your out if gas and she lets you attempt to reach. Future top. + eitherum sculptor = draw my deck storm 100+ Easy cheap to assemble all good cards
Must run past in flames
Cmc 0 creatures bad
Preordain cheap play
Personal tutor playable
Don't need tide spout just nice option
Culling > mana rock
Mystical teaching cheap $ tutor
It occurs to me that Nekusar might actually be the best commander for this. Him + the wheels can be an emergency win con or soften people up for Tendrils.
I am kinda thinking that too, the funny thing is this list is like 80% the same cards as a Nekusar deck.
@Faithless Looting: saw it in another storm build, kinda on the fence about it.
@Winds of Change: when burn my hand, it does nothing to refill like Wheel, I really gain nothing from annoying others and worst case I give them an answer and me nothing.
No jeleva is better IMO you don't cast your general if your winning and if your losing your out if gas and she lets you attempt to reach. Future top. + eitherum sculptor = draw my deck storm 100+ Easy cheap to assemble all good cards
Must run past in flames
Cmc 0 creatures bad
Preordain cheap play
Personal tutor playable
Don't need tide spout just nice option
Culling > mana rock
Mystical teaching cheap $ tutor
I was wondering about Future Top/Sculptor here. I run it in Oloro and was wondering how valuable it would be here.
Why don't you like the 0 cost artifact creatures? With Hurkyl's Recall you can get 9 storm count off them for 2 mana. Or you can run them out there to discourage attacks so we don't get bled to much before Ad Naus. Are you saying Culling is better then a mana rock or should be switched to a rock?
I am kinda thinking that too, the funny thing is this list is like 80% the same cards as a Nekusar deck.
@Faithless Looting: saw it in another storm build, kinda on the fence about it.
@Winds of Change: when burn my hand, it does nothing to refill like Wheel, I really gain nothing from annoying others and worst case I give them an answer and me nothing.
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Looting is okay. Decent value for storm, draws and dumps to yard YawgWin.
I like Winds of Change to recycle early (before storm) if I'm hitting crappy draws. Or we could play Notion Thief and make it an amazing card for the deck.
What about Gamble here? It isn't a terrible tutor (especially with YawgWin) and it's cheap.
I got a chance to try this out minus a few cards, did a 8 storm Mind's Desire into a 27 storm Mind's Desire, and I was going to try to kill someone, but I tried to cast Tidespout Tyrant and wound up mis-counting the mana, and died to lethal general damage the next turn.
It will take some practice as I am not used to thinking like this, but from what I saw tonight, it has some power, I found the 0 cast artifact creatures okay, but after it got going, storming into them was not very productive, think I will try some more rocks.
The biggest issue I am having is I am not sure what to tutor for, especially with Intuition splits, I wound up going for Yawgwill/Tendrils/Past in Flames that seemed to work, but it might not have been the best to build storm.
Mind's Desire for 27 and you couldn't get into a Tendrils? Unless you got really unlucky you should have been able to get into a 40+ storm Tendrils there.
That Intution pile is good when you've already got a huge storm and you are going for a finisher. At the beginning or in the middle an all wheel pile or something that insures a wheel might be better.
Chalice is good early game pre storm. It isn't great during your storm attempt other then as a free +1 to the count.
Mind's Desire for 27 and you couldn't get into a Tendrils? Unless you got really unlucky you should have been able to get into a 40+ storm Tendrils there.
That Intution pile is good when you've already got a huge storm and you are going for a finisher. At the beginning or in the middle an all wheel pile or something that insures a wheel might be better.
Chalice is good early game pre storm. It isn't great during your storm attempt other then as a free +1 to the count.
I screwed up the Tendrils, I had it in the yard with Yagwin up, and didn't count the mana right, because I was worried about resolving Tyrant. Next time I need to just ignore Tyrant if I have some storm rolling.
I screwed up the Tendrils, I had it in the yard with Yagwin up, and didn't count the mana right, because I was worried about resolving Tyrant. Next time I need to just ignore Tyrant if I have some storm rolling.
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Yeah, though resolving Tyrant before playing the Mind's Desire reveals would have been awesome.
I'm definitely going to try out Notion Thief BTW. USPS tracking says most of the cards I need should get here on Friday and I have a regular game night on Friday so I should have some testing feedback Saturday.
On a side note I played my last games with my current Oloro build before taking out 6-7 cards for the storm deck and hit a turn 2 win . T1 Fetch land, Chrome Mox, Mana Vault. Then end step before t2 crack fetch, Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam. Draw until I hit 13 getting Laboratory Maniac and Demonic Consultation and Brainstorm (plus Mox Diamond and lands and other stuff). T2 cast Lab Man, Consultation (name a card not in my deck to exile it) draw with Brainstorm with my deck empty. The funny thing is that 3 of the key cards to that (both Moxes and Dark Rit) are coming out for the storm deck (I only have 1 of each).
This deck has no removal, how do you deal with turn 2 Jin or Grave Titan backed up with Force of Will?
One option is play Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm.
If you are going to run very little removal - at least run Snuff Out/Contagion/Pyrokinesis, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, Diabolic Edict, and Toxic Deluge.
You need more free spells like Snap, Frantic Search, and potential as a meta call, Mogg Salvage.
Mogg Salvage should never miss, how many blue decks are in EDH?
\ Rebuild is a staple in Vintage Storm - it's good against mono-colour decks, and it beats U/x, it beats Stax. Great card to play in response to attempting to Storm, and it returns your Mana Crypt and Mana Vault to your hand so you don't take 4 damage on your next turn for a bigger Ad Naus.
Remember, if you study developed Vintage decks; your EDH storm deck will work. Storm is pretty darn hard in a meta filled with decks with 8-12 counters game two, so imagine all your games as if they've sideboard'd against Storm.
This deck has no removal, how do you deal with turn 2 Jin or Grave Titan backed up with Force of Will?
One option is play Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm.
Any thought of adding Surgical Extraction to deal with these things?
It's storm when you need it, an answer for these things when you need it.
I like this thread though, haven't seen storm get as much attention as it is getting now. I personally run a mono-blue storm list but the lack of tutors is killing me.
This deck has no removal, how do you deal with turn 2 Jin or Grave Titan backed up with Force of Will?
One option is play Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm.
Any thought of adding Surgical Extraction to deal with these things?
It's storm when you need it, an answer for these things when you need it.
I like this thread though, haven't seen storm get as much attention as it is getting now. I personally run a mono-blue storm list but the lack of tutors is killing me.
Hmm, could be good. It's perfect for storm and you can pay life for it which is good to me. Haha
I played a lot of storm in legacy and casual. Your worst match up is U/x control, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and "fish" decks with lando and counter spells.
Grixis is easy mode, just don't make the deck too complicated. Storm is so easy, ramp, draw, tutors, 2-4 win conditions and some removal.
I play aggressively, so I don't slow roll anything. If you can go off on turn 4 with Ritual, mana rocks, rebuild, And Ad Naus with force back up. Go for it.
Cmc 0
2 mox opal
3 mox Diamond
4 chrome mox
5 lotus petal
6 lions eye Diamond
7 ever flowing chalice
8 mana crypt
9 pact of negation
Cmc 1
10 Gitaxin probe
11 ponder
12 preordain
13 brainstorm
14 sol ring
15 mana vault
16 voltaic key
17 thoughtseize
18 duress
19 spell pierce
20 chain of vapor
21 dark ritual
22 imperial seal
23 vampiric tutor
24 mystical tutor
25 candelabra of Tawnos
26 Senseis diving top
27 High tide
Cmc 2
28 Izzet signet
29 Dimir signet
30 Talisman of Dominance
31 grim monolith
32 dark confidant
33 merchant scroll
34 demonic tutor
35 impulse
36 snapcaster Mage
37 cabal ritual
38 counterspell
39 mana drain
40 remand
41 Etherium sculptor
42 lim Duls vault
43 Muddle the Mixture
44 Cyclonic Rift
45 Grapeshot
46 wheel of fortune
47 time twister
48 windfall
49 seething song
50 intuition
51 grim tutor
52 frantic search
53 yawgmoths will
54 necropotence
Cmc 4
55 fact or fiction
56 past in flames
57 turnabout
58 tendrils of agony
59 future sight
60 force of will
61 glided lotus
62 Ad Nausuam
Cmc 6
63 minds desire
64 time spiral
65 recurring insight
66 mind over matter
Cmc 8
67 tidespout tyrant
Lands 33
9 fetch
3 shock
3 dual
83 city of brass
84 the new city of brass
85 command tower
86 sunken ruins
87 drowned catacomb
88 underground river
89 shivan reef
90 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
91 mountain
92 swamp
93 swamp
94 island
95 island
96 island
97 island
98 island
99 island
100 island
1 Sol'Kanar the Swamp King
CMC 0:
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Lotus Petal
1 Pact of Negation
1 Memnite
1 Ornithopter
1 Phyrexian Walker
1 Shield Sphere
CMC 1:
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 High Tide
1 Blood Pet
1 Repeal
1 Culling the Weak
1 Rain of Filth
1 Winds of Change
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Grim Monolith
1 Dark Confidant
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Impulse
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Remand
1 LimDuls Vault
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Grapeshot
1 Hurkyl's Recall
CMC 3:
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Seething Song
1 Grim Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Turnabout
1 Tendrils of Agony
CMC 5:
1 Force of Will
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Ad Nauseam
CMC 6:
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Spiral
1 Mind Over Matter
Since my LGS does not allow proxies, here is what I have so far:
1 Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
CMC 0: (8)
1 Chrome Mox
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tormod's Crypt
CMC 1: (15)
1 Brainstorm
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Duress
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 High Tide
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Grim Monolith
1 Dark Confidant
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Impulse
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Remand
1 LimDuls Vault
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Grapeshot
CMC 3: (8)
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Intuition
1 Necropotence
1 Seething Song
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Turnabout
CMC 5: (4)
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Force of Will
1 Future Sight
1 Gilded Lotus
CMC 6: (4)
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Mind's Desire
1 Recurring Insight
1 Time Spiral
Land:
35 Land
Though I have not picked a Commander, I own Jeleva, Nekusar, Sedris, and I could probably pick up a Sol'Kanar easy enough.
This is still a rough draft/work in progress, but feel free to post any cool ideas.
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I'm thinking about finding a spot for Bubbling Muck in my list. With High Tide it means Underground Sea and Watery Grave each tap for 3 mana. With Urborg out it means all your lands at least tap for two.
I'm also thinking about Brain Freeze. But not to hit opponents. It can feed the yard for Yawg Win and cycle my deck if I'm whiffing. For instance, in a situation where I'm just hitting land or cards I want to save for storm and my Top is telling me my next three aren't useful. I can BF myself dump those to yard then hopefully find Ad Naus, Mind's Desire or some wheels (preferrebly Spiral in that situation).
I have yet to actually play test but from what I've seen of storm decks on youtube the optimal land count is around 30-34. The lower you can afford to go the better because you don't want to get land flooded on your Mind's Desire or Ad Nauseam. You have to be aggressive with your mulligans and try to get into 2-3 lands and a wheel or ramp card. If you can afford to run them here we need a full compliment of fetches when you settle on your base. Thinning lands out for Desire and AD is necessary.
I think I'm going to try starting with 32 lands then go up or down from there. Basically in a deck like this you have to accept never getting off the ground or gassing out during your storm attempt a fair amount of the time. So you run risk reward with fewer lands to make sure you don't gas out. But that makes it more likely that you don't even get started.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
As a general, I can recommand Thraximundar as he can finish games without much support and he can truly act as a backup wincon if you encounter any storm hate.
In competitive meta, won't Inquisition of Kozilek act as a #3 Thoughtseize? Also, while kind of flamboyant and vulenrable Hatred can win you games out of nowhere as you already run some creatures no one will bother to look at/kill (Memnite, Ornithopter etc...).
You already run Turnabout, so you can run Reiterate for the infinite mana/storm combo. Can the deck reach 10 mana through permanents consistently?
LOL!!! this is your list minus the ones I have not traded for yet. I am still working on the rest. I am not sure I will drop below 35 land in a 3 color deck though, I have get some really bad shuffles.
I am debating adding Slaughter Pact, its in my Oloro build, but its rarely used other than a free cast.
@Hatred: If I have to attack I have already lost, that being said Thrax is not a bad idea for a back-up plan.
Mox Opal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
(They may or may not make it in)
I wish I had enough for a Candelabra, but that is a pipe dream at this point.
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I know, that's why I like it
Mostly what I mean is you made a good choice or two in your replacements for money cards like Twister and G Tutor.
Slaughter Pact is a good storm card. As long as there is a target. You should be winning that turn so paying it's cost next turn should never be an issue.
I liked your idea of the 0 CMC Kobolds in the other thread. You could maybe replace land with one or two of those. I also think you underestimate Blood Pet by cutting it from my list. It's essentially the same as a 0 cost creature.
I wish I had a Candelabra as well. Such a great storm card, especially with High Tide tech (infinite mana? Okay). I would proxy it but I tend to only proxy cards I own at least one copy of. Especially the big money cards that upset people when you play them.
The more I think about Brain Freeze the more I think I may run the card. It can eliminate a player(s) you know doesn't run Eldrazi and it can save your ass when whiffing. I was watching a 5c storm deck on youtube last night and he was whiffing hard. He had Top out and the top 3 were constantly crap. The whole time he had Freeze in his hand and I was like..."Freeze yourself and try to deck cycle into some useful cards". He ended up losing because he never drew into something to start his storm with. This is also part of why fetches are so important. We can't play draw go for long in these decks.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
The thing is that in a storm deck that isn't how you want to use your mana for the most part. You don't cast the kobolds (or whatever creatures) until you think you are ready to try to storm out that turn. So all your available mana should be for casting spells not equipping. At that point you should be good on draw. Ad Nauseam, Mind's Desire and wheels should be doing all that work for you at that point.
With the kobolds (if you play them) you can use the Clamp to yard them for a second cast off YawgWin which is a bonus and potentially worthwhile strategy.
It's a nice way to raise your storm count and draw cards but using that mana to equip might run you out of gas to quickly. Though it sounds interesting enough to test at some point.
EDIT: I just noticed Spellbook in your list Trancer, must have overlooked it before. I was just setting my mana base and was wondering if Reliquary Tower was worth it. Since our hand probably won't ever be above 7 except during our storm turn I didn't think I needed it. But I like Spellbook. You may never actually needs it's effect but 0 cost is 0 cost. And it can be recycled with Hurkyl's. I might look into it.
Btw I was going to go with 3 duals, 3 shocks, 9 fetches, Urborg, Boseiju, Command Tower, Drowned Catacomb, Sulfur Falls (don't see the need for Dragonskull Summit) and basics (heavy on island) for my land base. I don't see the need for many utility lands. I only have one Ancient Tomb but that will probably go in if I get another.
Right now I'm linking to this thread in my signature since we are theory crafting together here. Once this thread starts slowing down and we get set on our lists I'll make a seperate thread for my Sol'Kanar list since I don't want to "encroach" on this thread until it's run it's course.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
As for Spellbook, in my meta if I leave stuff in the yard too long someone will come along with a Bojuka Bog, so I am thinking Spellbook and Tower, but I think its mostly a meta call. Moxnix mostly just dumps stuff in the yard, if I get good enough with this deck to play it as fast as he does, I can probably pull the "training wheels" off and run without.
Tidesprout Tyrant is really fat, but it can end games fast... thinking about it.
(and you didnt miss spellbook before, I have been digging through my boxes and as i find something interesting, I add it. I will worry about a change log after I start playing it.)
EDIT: I think Scullclamp might be too narrow, though it would be hilarious using it with Empty the Warrens
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Good point on the graveyard hate. I don't really plan on dumping to yard except on the turn I plan to storm but I haven't actually played it yet (just ordered some key cards today, might be up and running by Friday).
Yeah, watching Mox's storm vids is fun and really hypes me up for the style but it can be intimidating how much you have to plan ahead.
Tidespout is so good but I'm not sure I want to play something with such a high CMC. Pretty much all our cards over 3 CMC accomplish specific goals: they draw us cards, get us more mana for casting or they storm. While Tidespout can be a win condition he doesn't actually add to any of the above functions. So the question becomes, can we afford the risk from Ad Nauseam to run him? If we play the deck such that we try to tutor him before Ad Nauseam then I think he is worth the spot.
(Note: quick forum response times due to being bored out of my mind waiting in a doctors office as my mother's chauffeur)
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Thoughts on Burning Wish as a 3rd Tendrils shot or 2nd Time Spiral/Recurring Insight ?
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
If your meta is cool with wish boards then go for it. I'm not sure I like Insight here which is funny because I love that card. I'd rather play Future Sight like TrappedUnderIce suggests.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
@Future Sight: The only time I saw it in the video's, Moxnix pitched it to untap something. Seems like it would be very dependent on other cards to keep the flow going, and could get you stuck in a land pocket in midstream while trying to storm.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
faithless looting - The ability to draw 2 from the graveyard has saved me before and I know this is storm but I felt like asking about it.
Winds of Change - Helps you get rid of a whiffed hand or in opening hand to just annoy everyone.
Chromatic Sphere & Chromatic Star- I know it is 1 mana to fix mana but it also draws a card which can be helpful.
I normally don't play storm so Idk how good these are but figured i'd suggest
Must run past in flames
Cmc 0 creatures bad
Preordain cheap play
Personal tutor playable
Don't need tide spout just nice option
Culling > mana rock
Mystical teaching cheap $ tutor
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I am kinda thinking that too, the funny thing is this list is like 80% the same cards as a Nekusar deck.
@Faithless Looting: saw it in another storm build, kinda on the fence about it.
@Winds of Change: when burn my hand, it does nothing to refill like Wheel, I really gain nothing from annoying others and worst case I give them an answer and me nothing.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I was wondering about Future Top/Sculptor here. I run it in Oloro and was wondering how valuable it would be here.
Why don't you like the 0 cost artifact creatures? With Hurkyl's Recall you can get 9 storm count off them for 2 mana. Or you can run them out there to discourage attacks so we don't get bled to much before Ad Naus. Are you saying Culling is better then a mana rock or should be switched to a rock?
Looting is okay. Decent value for storm, draws and dumps to yard YawgWin.
I like Winds of Change to recycle early (before storm) if I'm hitting crappy draws. Or we could play Notion Thief and make it an amazing card for the deck.
What about Gamble here? It isn't a terrible tutor (especially with YawgWin) and it's cheap.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
It will take some practice as I am not used to thinking like this, but from what I saw tonight, it has some power, I found the 0 cast artifact creatures okay, but after it got going, storming into them was not very productive, think I will try some more rocks.
The biggest issue I am having is I am not sure what to tutor for, especially with Intuition splits, I wound up going for Yawgwill/Tendrils/Past in Flames that seemed to work, but it might not have been the best to build storm.
Mind's Desire into Everflowing Chalice made me wish it was any other rock.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
That Intution pile is good when you've already got a huge storm and you are going for a finisher. At the beginning or in the middle an all wheel pile or something that insures a wheel might be better.
Chalice is good early game pre storm. It isn't great during your storm attempt other then as a free +1 to the count.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I screwed up the Tendrils, I had it in the yard with Yagwin up, and didn't count the mana right, because I was worried about resolving Tyrant. Next time I need to just ignore Tyrant if I have some storm rolling.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Yeah, though resolving Tyrant before playing the Mind's Desire reveals would have been awesome.
I'm definitely going to try out Notion Thief BTW. USPS tracking says most of the cards I need should get here on Friday and I have a regular game night on Friday so I should have some testing feedback Saturday.
On a side note I played my last games with my current Oloro build before taking out 6-7 cards for the storm deck and hit a turn 2 win . T1 Fetch land, Chrome Mox, Mana Vault. Then end step before t2 crack fetch, Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam. Draw until I hit 13 getting Laboratory Maniac and Demonic Consultation and Brainstorm (plus Mox Diamond and lands and other stuff). T2 cast Lab Man, Consultation (name a card not in my deck to exile it) draw with Brainstorm with my deck empty. The funny thing is that 3 of the key cards to that (both Moxes and Dark Rit) are coming out for the storm deck (I only have 1 of each).
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
One option is play Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm.
If you are going to run very little removal - at least run Snuff Out/Contagion/Pyrokinesis, Slaughter Pact, Dismember, Diabolic Edict, and Toxic Deluge.
You need more free spells like Snap, Frantic Search, and potential as a meta call, Mogg Salvage.
Mogg Salvage should never miss, how many blue decks are in EDH?
\
Rebuild is a staple in Vintage Storm - it's good against mono-colour decks, and it beats U/x, it beats Stax. Great card to play in response to attempting to Storm, and it returns your Mana Crypt and Mana Vault to your hand so you don't take 4 damage on your next turn for a bigger Ad Naus.
Remember, if you study developed Vintage decks; your EDH storm deck will work. Storm is pretty darn hard in a meta filled with decks with 8-12 counters game two, so imagine all your games as if they've sideboard'd against Storm.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW
Any thought of adding Surgical Extraction to deal with these things?
It's storm when you need it, an answer for these things when you need it.
I like this thread though, haven't seen storm get as much attention as it is getting now. I personally run a mono-blue storm list but the lack of tutors is killing me.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Hmm, could be good. It's perfect for storm and you can pay life for it which is good to me. Haha
I played a lot of storm in legacy and casual. Your worst match up is U/x control, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and "fish" decks with lando and counter spells.
Grixis is easy mode, just don't make the deck too complicated. Storm is so easy, ramp, draw, tutors, 2-4 win conditions and some removal.
I play aggressively, so I don't slow roll anything. If you can go off on turn 4 with Ritual, mana rocks, rebuild, And Ad Naus with force back up. Go for it.
EDH
BWG Doran Suicide Tempo BWG
BUW Sharuum Midrange Control BUW