Given how amazing Forbid has been for me I was also thinking about trying out Controvert, which despite its hefty mana cost could accomplish a pretty sick soft lock with Sacred Mesa. Usually by the time I'm ready to Forbidlock, I've got 8-10 mana on board and only really need to watch for sweepers and combos.
I'm already running Arcane Denial and I have nowhere near enough money for a Mana Drain. I'm not running Forbid so I may give it a try since I'm cutting a pair of 3 CMC counters and it seems amazing on paper as well as based on what people have told me. Controvert seems really bad though. 4 mana is too much for something that doesn't have a bunch of extra effects, plus you have to pay the recover cost every time something goes to the graveyard or it gets exiled. It's just way too mana intensive for my liking. Setting up a lock with Sacred Mesa requires you to pay 5WUUUU per turn to counter one spell. You'd be vastly better off with something like Deadeye Navigator + Venser, Shaper Savant.
Yah, you're probably right. There've been numerous games that went that long but probably a mystical tutor would be a better choice, honestly (finding Forbid for the lock). Sadly our group has a wee bit of a softban on deadeye, but I might chuck him back in there because frankly he's amazing with Ephara and it'd be a solid convincing finisher.
I scored an Italian mana drain in a trade a while back and it's been slumming it in my Jenara deck for a while, might be time to pull it out
Got a Karmic Guide and Treachery today. I think both a good candidates to be included in this deck, along with Time Spiral as I mentioned before. I might also consider adding a Mirror Entity or some type of free sac outlet to take advantage of the Guide + Reveillark infinite combo, but that would probably require me to tinker with the deck a little bit. Even without it, Karmic Guide makes Intuition a lot more flexible.
I'm not sure Treachery really belongs in this deck. Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation would probably go in first for me despite the untaps. Not triggering Ephara is a big blah in my opinion.
Karmic guide is fantastic, and I keep trying to find room to get him back in my deck -- problem is that I don't run enough power dudes to make him really worth it, and can only afford so many 5 drops. You play Body Double and a lot of better creatures which makes it a lot better for you than for me. Not th ewhole Reveillark combo, but still insane value (body double copying karmic guide, karmic guide hitting something else, then start blinking/bouncing them).
Hey DTrain, I had a question for you about Future Sight. Given the ridiculously low CMC of this deck, I think it might be really excellent even in my version - have you had good luck with it overall? Knowing what you know about my list (and the higher creature count, primarily) do you think you'd try it out?
My thought primarily was that it might be a better option than Ephara if she got killed a couple times. Seems likely to generate close to as much CA as Ephara a lot of the time.
Treachery has always been excellent in my deck and it's most similar to this build but I play less dudes than any if you however I very rarley find myself short on cards. The way I play this general uses quite a but of tempo treachery being essentially free allows you to develops your board state and keep open mana to counter or make a nasty follow up play. It's also worth noting getting a minimum of 2 devotion for free is very nice indeed about the only draw back it's had is the same as all the steal spells when I geddon sometimes the owner if said creature will auto scoop if they think It would give me a clear win. Futuresight is a stellar card as well future top is one of the strongest engines on the format simply casting Futuresight gives you a huge amount of card advantage this also comes with a sweet 3 devotion making an alredy auto include status card even better. Yet again the cards that are alredy good in Ephara scream "kill all the lands". As you says the deck wants a draw engine Futuresight rhystic study and mystic remora are for me at least very often better than Ephara. Now I tend to rely on creatures that produce tokens and such so I can play a overall higher card quality instead of just cards that get "cantrips" on a really good card I prefer cards that act like an engine with ephara while at the same time provide enough of an aggressive presence to kill a huge board. I feel like facing down bug creatures decks is fairly easy you play to go late and tutor up your rift as long as your board presence can destoy a cleared feild thier are not a whole lot of decks that take cyclonic rift > geddon and don't get stomped. The flipside is aginst decks without creatures you can imediatly go to deny the mana on already clear boards then use your aggressive draw engines to slaughter your opponents. Now looking at all of the deck list yours his and mine have very differnt plans to take victory so I can't say that a single slot like treachery will function even close to the same in your meta with your deck but fir me it's been excellent.
Love the list dtrain! Keep it up man. Im having a lot of fun playing with it. Why no verdict? It seems better then evacuation thats just my opinion. You have the one elspeth but not the 6 mana one? I assume the elspeth you have in now is just there for the 2nd +1?
You state that there are many improvements to be made... is there a wishlist you have? What cards would you replace with what if you could?
Yes Futuresight is pretty awesome no need to even play your commander with that out. I'm of the opinon every blue deck in the format should have future top in it's 99. The devotion is just icing but not why it's so good it's just good like mana drain or brainstorm. Gilded lotus is fine off curve when it makes a black lotus every turn I play it off curve all day and have been copying them for ages but recently I see myself playing copy artifact in most blue decks as well. With MLD tech the rock is obviously even better but I typically find if gilded lotus is not good in a deck the deck needs working on lol. The cards I cut first from when my list looked more like this was any card useless without Ephara for instance Whitemane lion I cut very fast even at 2 draw a card per turn it felt worse than just playing a draw engine IE rhystic study mystic remora etc
edit: lol read the march posts as may I think it's bed time ..
Love the list dtrain! Keep it up man. Im having a lot of fun playing with it. Why no verdict? It seems better then evacuation thats just my opinion. You have the one elspeth but not the 6 mana one? I assume the elspeth you have in now is just there for the 2nd +1?
You state that there are many improvements to be made... is there a wishlist you have? What cards would you replace with what if you could?
Thanks for the kind words! I prefer Evacuation over Supreme Verdict for a couple reasons. The main one would be that it can be cast at instant speed, which means it answers haste or other surprise situations, as well as allowing me to leave my mana up for counterspells and flash creatures. In addition, bouncing our own creatures rather than killing them is very useful because we can reuse ETB abilities and replay them to get more draws off of Ephara. Archaeomancer is a card that always seems to be teetering on the edge of playability for me, but if it's in your deck, you can create a loop that can be used whenever you need to wipe the board. Also works very nicely with Cryptic Command.
I think Elspeth, Knight-Errant is better than Elspeth, Sun's Champion in most situations for this deck. Just being 2 mana cheaper is already a pretty big factor. Since you only get one draw per turn off of Ephara regardless of how many creature you had enter, the token ability isn't that much better since we aren't really trying to play a bunch of pumps and swarm them. Knight-Errant's other + ability is more relevant than you might think because it often lets Ephara get in for 9 in the air, which provides a pretty quick general damage clock. The ultimate is never really the reason to play a Planeswalker, but as far as they go, Knight-Errant has a pretty powerful one if I ever get to pull it off.
Some of the talk about improvements is from a while ago when I first made the deck, but there are in fact still some cards that I am looking to get. The main ones would be: Force of Will, Gilded Drake, Jace, the Mind Sculptor (maybe), Mana Drain, Tundra, and the remaining off color fetches: Marsh Flats and Misty Rainforest. FoW would probably just replace one of the weaker counterspells, Gilded Drake would replace Treachery most likely, Mana Drain would again replace a weaker counterspell, lands would replace lands, and I'm not sure whether Jace would be good enough to include.
Mirror Entity is the only one that makes much sense really.
For singleton abuse of Reveillark loops for value, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Helm of Possession.
Side note: infinite combo that makes the most sense in this deck to me is Phantasmal Image + Palinchron. You can transmute Muddle the Mixture for Image, which lets you dig half the combo.
I personally like both but Fanatical Devotion can always protect key creatures from some wraths and removal which is sort of nice. I get attacked a lot when I play Ephara so I run Martyr's Cause as a protection effect.
Mirror Entity is a lot better in green decks because Survival of the Fittest can fetch it. Since we don't have access to green there isnt really a reason to stick to creatures for the sac outlet. You could even consider an Altar and I think it would be stronger than Mirror Entity from the standpoint of a sac outlet. Entity can still serve as a swarm tactic buff I guess which is worth something still but a lot of the reasons I would consider it normally are in decks with access to green.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Another one I forgot that I kinda like is Martyred Rusalka - costs mana, but it's a dude you can find with Ranger of Eos and it's a really relevant stall tactic. Probably not relevant in this specific build, but it's at least very cheap. Another thing that goes hilariously with Helm of Possession since you can sac the stuff you grab to keep other things from attacking
The things I'd do to be able to play Viscera Seer in this deck sometimes. Ugh.
Ojutai's Command never lived up to the hope of it being Cryptic Command Jr, so it is getting cut for what is likely the best Counterspell of all time in Force of Will. Serra Ascendant is a good card, but it draws a lot of hate and it doesn't really fit in very well with the rest of the deck. I'm not sure Gilded Lotus is what I want as a substitute, but I'm going to give it a try.
Unless you're in a combo infested meta, Force of Will is far, far, far from the best counterspell of all time. It's card disadvantage and only worth it if you had to tap out and it saves the game. I'd spring for an Italian Mana Draing before jamming FoW.
I meant across all formats and not specifically in this one. In Legacy and Vintage Force of Will is one of the defining cards. It's still easily worth it in EDH, especially in a deck like this which always keeps a full hand.
It is really funny though using a T2 Mana Drain as ramp for Ephara. I remember catching someone's Ashnod's Altar once and just the huge frowny face he had after that lol.
FoW is still fairly solid but I would say its less useful in this format as a whole. I run it in my build as well because the card advantage / draw in this deck is fairly good. The downside is that almost all of my creatures are white which makes the blue card exile clause a lot harder to pull off. I also dont particularly like FoW in a 3 color deck because often it really limits how many other blue cards you are drawing often leaving you with few options on how to free cast FoW.
As a whole, Mana Drain is generally a lot stronger in this format though. But I still think that FoW is solid in the right deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I can't argue that it's less bad here than in other decks, but it's wouldn't be my first choice of counterspell. If I didn't have them, and had to decide "Do I spend my money on a FoW or an Italian Mana Drain?" I'd pick Mana Drain, hands down.
(Speaking as a primarily legacy player who almost always plays blue decks, while the card is certainly format defining, it's not because it's objectively good. It's because FoW is a necessary evil whose presence keeps the format from being overwhelmed w/ T1 combo decks.)
The thing is it wasn't really a decision between an Italian Mana Drain and a Force of Will. I had around $100 worth of Amazon gift cards saved up, so I only had to pay $7 of actual cash for the FoW. They don't have foreign language cards on Amazon, which means I would have had to pay $230 for a Mana Drain, which means $130 out of my pocket. If I had the opportunity to trade the FoW straight up for an Italian Mana Drain I probably would go for it, but Mana Drain wasn't really an option for purchase at this time.
I get that, I really meant that as general advice and not necessarily to your particular situation. Apologies for sounding like a tool in my earlier comments.
Prairie Stream from BFZ is a pretty obvious inclusion in here. I'm not yet sure what I want to cut but I'm thinking it may be a good idea to go up to 37 lands which means I may be cutting a nonland card. I was considering Gilded Lotus since it hasn't really felt needed for this deck. I still kind of want to fit an Archaeomancer in here as well.
I have been wanting to go back up to 37 lands to increase the consistency a little bit, and swapping in Blighted Cataract lets me do that while also being potential gas in the late game when I no longer need it. Cutting a Plains still leaves us with 15 Basic Lands which means Prairie Stream is usually coming into play untapped, and it's fetchable which is particularly nice considering I don't have a Tundra yet.
GAAIV tends to draw a ton of hate, often more than he is worth, and I have been wanting a way to get spells back in addition to Snapcaster Mage, so I was thinking this might be a good swap. I'm also looking at the weakest Counterspells in the deck and trying to decide if other options could be better. I don't think I want to change two counters that can hit creatures into two that can't, but I could see changing one of them since Swan Song is a bit cheaper and Negate has no drawbacks. The majority of things that I want to counter are non creatures, so I don't think changing one of these should be a problem. The ideal choice would be Mana Drain but I don't have one and am not expecting to get one in the near future. I'm definitely looking for input from you guys on all of these changes though.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I scored an Italian mana drain in a trade a while back and it's been slumming it in my Jenara deck for a while, might be time to pull it out
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Hinder to Dissipate
Spell Crumple to Ojutai's Command
For some reason I can't use the greater than character. "Non Latin Unicode characters are temporarily not allowed."
EDIT: Realized I didn't have the list as up to date as I had thought so here are the other changes:
Rhystic Study to Future Sight
Mistmeadow Witch to Luminarch Ascension
Sword of War and Peace to Rite of Replication
City of Brass to Celestial Colonnade
I also may want to try adding Time Spiral to the deck. I think the cards I'm most considering for cutting right now are Geist of Saint Traft and Batterskull.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Karmic guide is fantastic, and I keep trying to find room to get him back in my deck -- problem is that I don't run enough power dudes to make him really worth it, and can only afford so many 5 drops. You play Body Double and a lot of better creatures which makes it a lot better for you than for me. Not th ewhole Reveillark combo, but still insane value (body double copying karmic guide, karmic guide hitting something else, then start blinking/bouncing them).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
My thought primarily was that it might be a better option than Ephara if she got killed a couple times. Seems likely to generate close to as much CA as Ephara a lot of the time.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
You state that there are many improvements to be made... is there a wishlist you have? What cards would you replace with what if you could?
edit: lol read the march posts as may I think it's bed time ..
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I think Elspeth, Knight-Errant is better than Elspeth, Sun's Champion in most situations for this deck. Just being 2 mana cheaper is already a pretty big factor. Since you only get one draw per turn off of Ephara regardless of how many creature you had enter, the token ability isn't that much better since we aren't really trying to play a bunch of pumps and swarm them. Knight-Errant's other + ability is more relevant than you might think because it often lets Ephara get in for 9 in the air, which provides a pretty quick general damage clock. The ultimate is never really the reason to play a Planeswalker, but as far as they go, Knight-Errant has a pretty powerful one if I ever get to pull it off.
Some of the talk about improvements is from a while ago when I first made the deck, but there are in fact still some cards that I am looking to get. The main ones would be: Force of Will, Gilded Drake, Jace, the Mind Sculptor (maybe), Mana Drain, Tundra, and the remaining off color fetches: Marsh Flats and Misty Rainforest. FoW would probably just replace one of the weaker counterspells, Gilded Drake would replace Treachery most likely, Mana Drain would again replace a weaker counterspell, lands would replace lands, and I'm not sure whether Jace would be good enough to include.
EDIT: I just realized my list in the OP is slightly out of date. Sometime in the last couple months these changes were made:
Batterskull -> Treachery
Geist of Saint Traft -> Karmic Guide
Thinking about putting in a sac outlet to give the deck a combo finish with Reveillark + Karmic Guide or Reveillark + Body Double.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
For singleton abuse of Reveillark loops for value, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Helm of Possession.
Side note: infinite combo that makes the most sense in this deck to me is Phantasmal Image + Palinchron. You can transmute Muddle the Mixture for Image, which lets you dig half the combo.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I personally like both but Fanatical Devotion can always protect key creatures from some wraths and removal which is sort of nice. I get attacked a lot when I play Ephara so I run Martyr's Cause as a protection effect.
Mirror Entity is a lot better in green decks because Survival of the Fittest can fetch it. Since we don't have access to green there isnt really a reason to stick to creatures for the sac outlet. You could even consider an Altar and I think it would be stronger than Mirror Entity from the standpoint of a sac outlet. Entity can still serve as a swarm tactic buff I guess which is worth something still but a lot of the reasons I would consider it normally are in decks with access to green.
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[Modern] Allies
The things I'd do to be able to play Viscera Seer in this deck sometimes. Ugh.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Ojutai's Command -> Force of Will
Serra Ascendant -> Gilded Lotus
Ojutai's Command never lived up to the hope of it being Cryptic Command Jr, so it is getting cut for what is likely the best Counterspell of all time in Force of Will. Serra Ascendant is a good card, but it draws a lot of hate and it doesn't really fit in very well with the rest of the deck. I'm not sure Gilded Lotus is what I want as a substitute, but I'm going to give it a try.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
FoW is still fairly solid but I would say its less useful in this format as a whole. I run it in my build as well because the card advantage / draw in this deck is fairly good. The downside is that almost all of my creatures are white which makes the blue card exile clause a lot harder to pull off. I also dont particularly like FoW in a 3 color deck because often it really limits how many other blue cards you are drawing often leaving you with few options on how to free cast FoW.
As a whole, Mana Drain is generally a lot stronger in this format though. But I still think that FoW is solid in the right deck.
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[Modern] Allies
(Speaking as a primarily legacy player who almost always plays blue decks, while the card is certainly format defining, it's not because it's objectively good. It's because FoW is a necessary evil whose presence keeps the format from being overwhelmed w/ T1 combo decks.)
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Gilded Lotus -> Blighted Cataract
Plains -> Prairie Stream
I have been wanting to go back up to 37 lands to increase the consistency a little bit, and swapping in Blighted Cataract lets me do that while also being potential gas in the late game when I no longer need it. Cutting a Plains still leaves us with 15 Basic Lands which means Prairie Stream is usually coming into play untapped, and it's fetchable which is particularly nice considering I don't have a Tundra yet.
Considering:
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV -> Archaeomancer
Memory Lapse / Arcane Denial -> Swan Song / Negate
GAAIV tends to draw a ton of hate, often more than he is worth, and I have been wanting a way to get spells back in addition to Snapcaster Mage, so I was thinking this might be a good swap. I'm also looking at the weakest Counterspells in the deck and trying to decide if other options could be better. I don't think I want to change two counters that can hit creatures into two that can't, but I could see changing one of them since Swan Song is a bit cheaper and Negate has no drawbacks. The majority of things that I want to counter are non creatures, so I don't think changing one of these should be a problem. The ideal choice would be Mana Drain but I don't have one and am not expecting to get one in the near future. I'm definitely looking for input from you guys on all of these changes though.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios