Hey all, happy new year! I haven't been active on this thread for a while (been playing Hearthstone over the break). I'll be happy to keep it going and answer any questions people have.
Hello, I play midrange Prossh but your build looks like a lot more fun. I plan on building yours in a few weeks. Have there been any updates to the deck since your last post?
There are variations you can take the deck in, based on your metagame. You can slow the deck down or speed it up by adjusting the numbers between acceleration and protection. Mind giving me a rundown of what you expect to face?
Blue is popular, and the dominant strategies are late game "value" decks and voltron. There's no fast combo - I think a good Rafiq draw (or a Prossh draw that looks like one of yours) are the fastest wins. The first 5 turns are usually ramp and setup, even the voltron decks usually spend a few turns durdling. I'd like to take advantage of that, and your list is the fastest I've seen. In other words: I'm looking to speed my deck up as fast as possible, while keeping enough interaction to stop the blue players' interactions (pretty much FoW will be my only fear, at least for the first few games).
This is what I'm running at the moment. I've already changed it a bit from the cards I had on hand, but I'll be making big changes to it in a few weeks (removing most of my removal and all of the enchantment wincons are the big ones)
Turn 1 the Sharuum player goes Swamp, Mana Crypt, Bitter Ordeal targets you. Exile Food Chain. What's plan b
Short answer: there is no Plan B.
Long answer:
If you read the rest of this thread, or even the opening post, this deck is a glass cannon. If a Sharuum player does that to me, chances are he's going to get taken out by the next player in the group for wasting his turn, simple as that. I can't remember the last time anyone has used a Jester's Cap effect on me, let alone in a deck. There's this weird myth about Extract effects ruining decks - nobody plays them because they're greedy and don't want to give up slots for it. What good is 2-3 Jester's Cap effects, that don't further your gameplan, and dilute your own strategy? If people ARE running Jester's Cap effects, that's a sign that your metagame has become too degenerate, and said person needs to play from behind to even try and catch up. And I'm going to stop myself right here from going on an even longer rant, cause posts like this contribute nothing to the conversation, especially when it's already been addressed.
Sharuum just runs Bitter Ordeal as a win con (arbitrary gravestorm with Sharuum and Sculpting Steel), so a very reasonable playline is Gravestorm -> Snapcaster on a later turn. I'm not sure what you would call this - an incidental weakness to Sharuum? At any rate, they have to have it in hand or tutor it, and if they use it as an answer then they open themselves up to grave hate way earlier then they need to.
I think discussion of cap effects is very relevant. That being said his general is Prosh and he's got plenty of kill outlets I 1 shot someone turn 5 playing Prosh Precon out of the box he's got purph while there is no doubt it would make his odds of winning that particular game lower he's still by no means out of it. Some decks do need to worry about those kinds of issues others like this do not need to waste slots trying to fix something that's not a major issue.
I don't know about others' play experiences, but I do not run into very many cap effects at all. As I've stated before, I've also never been capped before while playing this deck, in any way, shape, or form.
Moxnix you're correct and incorrect about this list at the same time. I don't have any enablers outside of Food Chain to win. Sure I guess I could manually win with something like Purphoros, but it's pretty much impossible. In my paper list, I cut Riftsweeper in favor of more anti-blue since I never run into cap effects.
There is an even faster and more risky version of this list played by Shady Wolf. He eschews some slower cards and protection for more acceleration (ie. Chrome Mox), and I think that's a fine strategy since this list is already so dense with combo pieces.
As for Fate Reforged, there's really nothing worth adding. Kolaghan is another finisher, but I don't think it's necessarily better than anything already in here.
Alas, I haven't played this deck in a long time. I've taken it apart in favor of a more "fair" Prossh list. You can check it out in bighaben and ferverous' thread. It's focused around reanimating or copying Craterhoof Behemoth twice in the same turn. The deck plays more friendly in a variety of metagames and isn't as cutthroat as this list. Although FCP is still my pride, I acknowledge that it is a very boring deck to play.
I messaged Shady Wolf asking for his list, thanks.
Shame that you don't play the deck anymore. Did you stop because the deck got boring, or did your group ask you to stop playing it? Do you still think FCP is the optimal Prossh list for high-powered metas?
I went and looked through the other thread and I came across this comment of yours:
Quote from MCR »
I would advise against going for an all-in strategy if you cannot afford the tutors associated with playing a more combo-oriented list. Prossh beatdown is still very strong. I would look at combining it with some disruption cards, depending on your metagame. If your metagame is advanced, you can utilize punishing enchantments such as Blood Moon or Stranglehold. If it is very ramp heavy, try Null Rod and running loads of artifact destruction (as mentioned in a few posts prior).
I don't have Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Imperial Recruiter, and it will be a while before I can pick them up. I also was not planning on running cards like Divining Witch (although I understand your reasoning for running them). Given that, do you think that it's better to stick with combo/control instead of switching to FCP?
Depends on how the game plays out if everyone's winning turn 4 then your probably boned that game but your not out I had a doomsday deck I ran that if someone extracted my Labman my wincon was swing for 4 with damia that was impossible also part of the reason I prefer just using the card without dedicating to it now. I know you like non blue combo I have been working on a black red doomsday storm build without blue I might hit you up on skype for some opinions .
Hello everyone. I've truly enjoyed reading and following this list. I've been playing Prossh for a couple of years now and slowly wound up making a list that went towards FCP.
This is the current list I'm running and it's been doing turn 4-5 wins at my local commander tournaments. It's a nice mix of cutthroat and casual. Trying to figure out how to improve it without breaking the bank. Ideas are welcome...
This may be an extremely silly question, but what's the plan when FC gets countered?
Basically this deck is all-in for its execution. If Food Chain gets countered/destroyed you're in a LOT of trouble. In my build I have Regrowth, Treasured Find, and Eternal Witness for graveyard recursion and riftsweeper for exile effects. Outside of that, Purphoros is your main out (he does still shoot everyone but you for 14 off the first Prossh cast, and 12 even if they counter Prossh).
The really SOL play for this deck isn't having food chain countered however; have Food Chain blown up after a few loops of combo or have Prossh countered 3 loops in. Then you're in a position where you most likely are going to die a horrible, painful death. Luckily, I have both City of Solitude, Dosan, and Defense Grid to protect the combo along with Vexing Shusher and the trilogy of one mana counters for blue. Out of maybe 50 games with this deck, I've been destroyed with a counter 2 games (which is equal to the games I've lost with Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact [Food Chain last card in deck off EoT tainted pact /sadface])
Playing a deck list such as Food Chain Prossh that has so much speed and tutoring ability means that you'll pull out wins that you have no business winning. Monday night I was playing against a Kruphix player who knows what the deck can do and two other blue commanders. I had to mulligan (not Paris mulligan either) to 4 due to horrible draws. Landed a Shusher turn 2 off the topdeck and comboed off turn 5. Saddest part of the win was having to Plunge Into Darkness EoT turn 3 to get a land for Food Chain. This deck has the ability to do degenerate, disgusting things and you WILL be the target of the whole table. The fact that you can and most likely will win over half the time with that caveat merely speaks to the power of the list.
Just proxy up any of the lists here (MCR's latest or AngelForge's or my own build) and goldfish the deck 30 times. Don't goldfish it 10 times. Just don't. When I finished getting the cards for this deck and transformed my mid-range Prossh build with Xenagod, T&N Mikaeus/Trisk, and Melira/Redcap combo wins my average goldfish was turn 8. I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the build. This is not an easy deck to pilot off a list. Some of the tutor choices are difficult to discern at first glance. I'm now down to very consistant turn 4 goldfishes and have pulled more than a couple turn 2 wins.
This may be an extremely silly question, but what's the plan when FC gets countered?
Basically this deck is all-in for its execution. If Food Chain gets countered/destroyed you're in a LOT of trouble. In my build I have Regrowth, Treasured Find, and Eternal Witness for graveyard recursion and riftsweeper for exile effects. Outside of that, Purphoros is your main out (he does still shoot everyone but you for 14 off the first Prossh cast, and 12 even if they counter Prossh).
The really SOL play for this deck isn't having food chain countered however; have Food Chain blown up after a few loops of combo or have Prossh countered 3 loops in. Then you're in a position where you most likely are going to die a horrible, painful death. Luckily, I have both City of Solitude, Dosan, and Defense Grid to protect the combo along with Vexing Shusher and the trilogy of one mana counters for blue. Out of maybe 50 games with this deck, I've been destroyed with a counter 2 games (which is equal to the games I've lost with Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact [Food Chain last card in deck off EoT tainted pact /sadface])
I play in a blue-dominant meta, so I usually wait till I have at least one counter of my own before trying to go off, preferably more. If you lose a stack war, the gameplan is recover FC as fast as possible in case of grave hate and go off again on a later turn.
I've made some concessions to the other fast combo in my meta (see the excessive removal), but I'll be changing that when I can replace the rest of my draw with the missing tutors. My manabase needs to be cleaned up, mostly more fetches and prisma lands need to go in and Arcane Lighthouse and the some of the basics/filters need to come out. I like Volrath's Stronghold a lot but it's probably too slow for a deck like this. Too bad it can't target any card.
Lotus Cobra and Seedtime are untested additions. Lotus Cobra seems good and every time I draw it, it'll act as a reminder that I need to get the remaining fetchlands. Not sure about Seedtime but I had one and wanted to try it out.
I had an interesting loss the other night. The table was Surrak, Rafiq, Wydwen, and Prossh. It was turn 4 or 5, I had 4 elves in play, a Pyroblast, Cradle, and a dork in my hand. I drew a Wheel of Fortune. I played out my hand and then played Cradle, Wheel (floating a bunch of green and a black with no lands untap). The wheel was Force-d, to which I Pyroblasted. After the Pyroblast resolved but before the Wheel did, the Wydwen player cast Evacuate, losing me all my elves. I drew a Wall of Blossoms, Vampiric Tutor, some dorks, and no kill spell. I used the one black I had left to Vampiric Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will, before casting Wall of Blossom and the dorks with the remaining mana and passing. Before it was my next turn again I was Bojuka Bog-d. Couldn't get anywhere and died to Rafiq the next turn. Perhaps the correct playline was tutor for Ad Naseaum and pass, holding the Wall of Blossoms in hand. Given that the Wydwen player saw the Bog from his Sensei's Divining Top and my meta is very light on graveyard hate, the Yawgmoth's Will playline was probably right, but I'm not sure.
What are you're thoughts on Craterhoof Behemoth? It's not a win-con with FC, but if something goes terribly wrong it's not the worst backup plan. At the very least, casting a bunch of elves and Behemothing the player that stopped you will be satisfying.
I don't remember if this was discussed already, but what would a Prossh wishboard look like? The options are Burning Wish (Sorcery), Death Wish (Any), and Living Wish (Creature or Land). Maybe LW, playing the Behemoth, Rune-Scarred Demon, Glacial Chasm, a Prisma land, and 6 other good cards? I don't like wishes in EDH (format is 100 card singleton not 100 card + 10) so I don't play with them, but they're worth discussing in a thread that's tagged 'Competitive' for the playgroups that do use them.
I know the feeling about cleaning up the manabase. I really dislike running terramorphic/wilds and checklands in my list. That being said, you could replace one of your forests for a snow-covered forest and slip in a tainted pact. I feel that it's the 3rd best not $$$$$ tutor in the deck behind demonic tutor/intent. Costs one more than vampiric but it puts it in your hand so you can go off if you draw it on the win turn.
Let me know how lotus cobra goes. He's on my shortlist for additions. As for seedtime, not sold on it. If they counter a combo piece, the time walk probably won't be enough to get you back in the game. Treasonous Ogre was in my old midrange Prossh list and it's a pretty good late game draw to get you out of a jam. Craterhoof is just SOOO slow. We're not dropping a ton of bodies short of elves/kobolds. If we have the former, we have Prossh. If we have the latter, we're already in trouble w/o Prossh. Craterhoof IMO is more of a Tooth and Nail target in a deck like this. Of course we're not running T&N.
Also, dat removal suite...wow. So much removal. I'm iffy on the deed and damnation. Both amazing removal, but 4 drop removal is so slow in combo. 'Tis better to be the one who knocks, as they say. Nature's claim, Ancient Grudge, Terminate, Sudden Spoiling, Toxic Deluge, Krosan Grip, Murderous Cut, Thoughtseize, and Duress. That's a lot of removal/Fog in some cases. I'd argue you're running 12 removal spells not counting REB/Pyroblast. No Putrefy? More of a swiss army knife option. Also, Beast Within or Chaos Warp could really get some mileage for you. Also, as a shortlist replacement for myself, I've considered Shriekmaw for a removal option. It's somewhat narrow with the non-black/non-artifact restriction, but it it's a tutorable option with worldly for removal and options are never bad. Also on a totally crazy tangent idea, what about Tangle? If swarms or stupid activated ability commanders are giving you issues it really is a double Time Walk against them. Stranger things have happened and it will be a second Sudden Spoiling nine times out of ten.
For that loss, Ad Nauseam was the right call there IMO. It's turn 5 on untap, so you can EoT ad nauseam for the win. Yawg win is just a high risk/low reward option there IMO. You Will the next turn, replay your board and pass. You're still no closer to the combo sans the card on the draw step. If it's any consolation, I lost a game recently casting Summoner's Pact as a GSZ on turn 2 and promptly lost. So it's easy to make suboptimal plays that look great in the moment, but less so in hindsight.
I know the feeling about cleaning up the manabase. I really dislike running terramorphic/wilds and checklands in my list. That being said, you could replace one of your forests for a snow-covered forest and slip in a tainted pact. I feel that it's the 3rd best not $$$$$ tutor in the deck behind demonic tutor/intent. Costs one more than vampiric but it puts it in your hand so you can go off if you draw it on the win turn.
Let me know how lotus cobra goes. He's on my shortlist for additions. As for seedtime, not sold on it. If they counter a combo piece, the time walk probably won't be enough to get you back in the game. Treasonous Ogre was in my old midrange Prossh list and it's a pretty good late game draw to get you out of a jam. Craterhoof is just SOOO slow. We're not dropping a ton of bodies short of elves/kobolds. If we have the former, we have Prossh. If we have the latter, we're already in trouble w/o Prossh. Craterhoof IMO is more of a Tooth and Nail target in a deck like this. Of course we're not running T&N.
Also, dat removal suite...wow. So much removal. I'm iffy on the deed and damnation. Both amazing removal, but 4 drop removal is so slow in combo. 'Tis better to be the one who knocks, as they say. Nature's claim, Ancient Grudge, Terminate, Sudden Spoiling, Toxic Deluge, Krosan Grip, Murderous Cut, Thoughtseize, and Duress. That's a lot of removal/Fog in some cases. I'd argue you're running 12 removal spells not counting REB/Pyroblast. No Putrefy? More of a swiss army knife option. Also, Beast Within or Chaos Warp could really get some mileage for you. Also, as a shortlist replacement for myself, I've considered Shriekmaw for a removal option. It's somewhat narrow with the non-black/non-artifact restriction, but it it's a tutorable option with worldly for removal and options are never bad. Also on a totally crazy tangent idea, what about Tangle? If swarms or stupid activated ability commanders are giving you issues it really is a double Time Walk against them. Stranger things have happened and it will be a second Sudden Spoiling nine times out of ten.
For that loss, Ad Nauseam was the right call there IMO. It's turn 5 on untap, so you can EoT ad nauseam for the win. Yawg win is just a high risk/low reward option there IMO. You Will the next turn, replay your board and pass. You're still no closer to the combo sans the card on the draw step. If it's any consolation, I lost a game recently casting Summoner's Pact as a GSZ on turn 2 and promptly lost. So it's easy to make suboptimal plays that look great in the moment, but less so in hindsight.
Tainted Pact is definitely going in, just a matter of getting it. Sad about the Behemoth, he's one of my favorite green cards to cast but you're right in that he's too slow for a list like this. The ogre will probably go for cheaper CMC dorks soon but I'll miss him, he makes for some really silly playlines. You've hit the nail on the head with Seedtime, but I told one of my friends I'd try it out.
12 removal spells woah, I didn't realize it was that bad but I hadn't counted in a long time. I plan on cutting that down heavily once I get more mana dorks (still missing Boreal Druid and a few of the others). Pernicious Deed, Damnation, and Murderous Cut/Terminate definitely need to go, maybe Sudden Spoiling as well because it's slow and doesn't do much other then stall. The Toxic Deluge probably should be cut as well. It's really obvious that my build is formerly Midrange, but that's changing. Makes a lot of the cuts really easy at least. Chaos Warp might have a place, but I'm looking to remove removal. It might still go in, in replace of one of the less-generic removal spells. I'd like to find room for Abrupt Decay as well.
Tangle seems really good, it definitely hits a lot of the decks in my meta. I'll keep my eyes open for one to see how it works. I think that my group has a lot more aggro-type decks (voltron control being the biggest one) then most advanced metas do so Tangle might very well earn it's ink here. Not sure how it would work in more combo-heavy groups.
Can you Unearth with Food chain mana? It might be worth running Extractor Demon maindeck if so. I'm unsold given that everyone in my playgroup keeps an Eldrazi in their binder, but I like the redundancy of being able to replay it.
My thoughts on the RSD in the wishboard - it lets your Living/Death wish act as a FC tutor or kill card tutor, and you can cast it off of FC mana. Burn at the Stake is such an awesome card, too bad it's not mainboard material. If there was a "double" combo piece - one that worked with another card in the SB, but also directly worked towards FC - that would be worth running, but I don't think it's worth playing a card like Melira maindeck (unless you have a lot of infect in your meta).
I think these are obvious cuts for the most part. A lot of these cards were midrange cards that weren't fast enough for a dedicated FC build. I'm sad about cutting Faithless Looting, definitely looking to put it back into the list but I'm not sure what should go. Cutting Terminate worries me a bit. I can stick a dork in the way of more traditional voltron, but there's also the big bad Hermit Druid. No one plays it in my meta so I've never faced it. Are we faster then them? Can we afford leaving that matchup to the coinflip or the rest of the table's interaction?
Skullclamp is a midrange holdover that I'm having a hard time cutting. Why aren't we playing it here?
Still missing some cards, the big 3 being Imperial Recruiter, Mana Crypt, Grim Tutor. Still need a few of the RG counters as well. Hopefully going to get those soon.
Wow. It's cool to see that people still show interest in this deck. I have a few points to make, but I'll go ahead and weave them into the responses below.
I messaged Shady Wolf asking for his list, thanks.
Shame that you don't play the deck anymore. Did you stop because the deck got boring, or did your group ask you to stop playing it? Do you still think FCP is the optimal Prossh list for high-powered metas?
I went and looked through the other thread and I came across this comment of yours:
Quote from MCR »
I would advise against going for an all-in strategy if you cannot afford the tutors associated with playing a more combo-oriented list. Prossh beatdown is still very strong. I would look at combining it with some disruption cards, depending on your metagame. If your metagame is advanced, you can utilize punishing enchantments such as Blood Moon or Stranglehold. If it is very ramp heavy, try Null Rod and running loads of artifact destruction (as mentioned in a few posts prior).
I don't have Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Imperial Recruiter, and it will be a while before I can pick them up. I also was not planning on running cards like Divining Witch (although I understand your reasoning for running them). Given that, do you think that it's better to stick with combo/control instead of switching to FCP?
I believe that the black tutors are what make this deck viable. I don't really know many other decks other than something like 5C combo or Oona that can play Demonic Consultation and friends. However, the issue with FCP is that it is inherently inferior to some of these decks. The main reason is that while speed and consistency are at an all-time high, it's still a turn slower than the fastest combo decks in the format, and it sacrifices all resilience for it. That makes this kind of an inferior combo deck in a well-tuned metagame.
But to answer your question, I would not play this deck without the tutors. It is 100% vital.
This may be an extremely silly question, but what's the plan when FC gets countered?
Basically this deck is all-in for its execution. If Food Chain gets countered/destroyed you're in a LOT of trouble. In my build I have Regrowth, Treasured Find, and Eternal Witness for graveyard recursion and riftsweeper for exile effects. Outside of that, Purphoros is your main out (he does still shoot everyone but you for 14 off the first Prossh cast, and 12 even if they counter Prossh).
The really SOL play for this deck isn't having food chain countered however; have Food Chain blown up after a few loops of combo or have Prossh countered 3 loops in. Then you're in a position where you most likely are going to die a horrible, painful death. Luckily, I have both City of Solitude, Dosan, and Defense Grid to protect the combo along with Vexing Shusher and the trilogy of one mana counters for blue. Out of maybe 50 games with this deck, I've been destroyed with a counter 2 games (which is equal to the games I've lost with Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact [Food Chain last card in deck off EoT tainted pact /sadface])
Playing a deck list such as Food Chain Prossh that has so much speed and tutoring ability means that you'll pull out wins that you have no business winning. Monday night I was playing against a Kruphix player who knows what the deck can do and two other blue commanders. I had to mulligan (not Paris mulligan either) to 4 due to horrible draws. Landed a Shusher turn 2 off the topdeck and comboed off turn 5. Saddest part of the win was having to Plunge Into Darkness EoT turn 3 to get a land for Food Chain. This deck has the ability to do degenerate, disgusting things and you WILL be the target of the whole table. The fact that you can and most likely will win over half the time with that caveat merely speaks to the power of the list.
Just proxy up any of the lists here (MCR's latest or AngelForge's or my own build) and goldfish the deck 30 times. Don't goldfish it 10 times. Just don't. When I finished getting the cards for this deck and transformed my mid-range Prossh build with Xenagod, T&N Mikaeus/Trisk, and Melira/Redcap combo wins my average goldfish was turn 8. I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the build. This is not an easy deck to pilot off a list. Some of the tutor choices are difficult to discern at first glance. I'm now down to very consistant turn 4 goldfishes and have pulled more than a couple turn 2 wins.
Thank you, Random_ScrubMTG, for giving this list a real chance. It is really fast and consistent, and can also occasionally fight the hate. I'm a bit sad to say that I have moved away from this version of Prossh, and even the double Craterhoof version I was playing in the other Prossh thread. Ironically, I am playing a midrange combo Prossh based around Kiki-Conscripts / Mike-Trike / Melira-Redcap and turning Prossh into a value / control machine. After a year of playing Prossh, I can safely say that midrange combo is indeed the most consistently powerful version of the deck, able to deal with all sorts of crap thrown at it.
As of now, this version of the deck has been retired. I don't know if I'll make a new thread for the new Prossh list, or perhaps just convert this one to the new one. Depends on interest I guess.
I really enjoy playing this version of Prossh. I never tried playing midrange focused around Tooth and Nail, but FC feels a lot more powerful then the aggroy midrange version I was playing. I definitely can see the midrange being more consistent in heavy control metas. That's the strength of Prossh, though - he's got a lot of options for how you build him.
I would like to see your current midrange list, could you provide a link to it?
Thank you, Random_ScrubMTG, for giving this list a real chance. It is really fast and consistent, and can also occasionally fight the hate. I'm a bit sad to say that I have moved away from this version of Prossh, and even the double Craterhoof version I was playing in the other Prossh thread. Ironically, I am playing a midrange combo Prossh based around Kiki-Conscripts / Mike-Trike / Melira-Redcap and turning Prossh into a value / control machine. After a year of playing Prossh, I can safely say that midrange combo is indeed the most consistently powerful version of the deck, able to deal with all sorts of crap thrown at it.
As of now, this version of the deck has been retired. I don't know if I'll make a new thread for the new Prossh list, or perhaps just convert this one to the new one. Depends on interest I guess.
I'm not a Prossh player, but have had this experience in other EDH decks, including a friends's Sharuum and my own Jarad. The all-in combo decks are almost always worse than the the midrange versions of the same deck that have the ability to be all-in combo.
Earlier you posted that this deck could go either faster or slower depending on preference, and you chose to make it faster. I have played Prossh for a while now and I have found that trying to race a table of 4 is impossible (for me at least), especially if all 4 of the decks are fine tuned to the extreme. There are to many counter-spells, removal and taxing effects to make it there on turns 2-3. Don't get me wrong you have a fine concept with the protection package, every acceleration, and the best win conditions for your purpose, and you will win a fair amount of games with that speed. But you said it yourself that you scoop to relevant removal.
That being said I think there is a way to fix this. You can add in Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts as an alternative win condition. The best part is that they would also help with the Food Chain (FC) combo. If the FC combo stretches out to turn 4 or later both Kiki and conscripts can generate a lot of mana by themselves with zealous netting X+1 where X is the highest CMC creature on the table and Kiki netting X+1 where X is the highest cmc of creatures you control, even more if that creature makes mana.
The big problem with this however is that they will most likely not help in those games where you are looking to win turn 3 or earlier as they are both CMC 5. That being said I think the risk of this is worth having an alternative win condition in the deck itself.
There are more options to diversify the deck, but I believe this to be the best way to add in the extra resiliency that you need.
(other options include: Melira Pod chain, Reanimation package, Earthcraft, and Instakill cards like Berserk)
Current thoughts: I want more 1cmc mana dorks that tap for B, but I don't think they exist. I want to get Den Protector and Regrowth in, maybe cutting Reclamation Sage. Abrupt decay answers problematic permanents much better then the Sage, however the Sage gets eaten by Chain...
I'm quite happy with how the deck plays. It's very smooth, and I'm usually either trying to go off on turn 3, or my resources are such that I can take a very safe turn 4 combo (with all that sweet Jund stack disruption). I'd like to get Thoughtseize into the deck as an additional source of protection. I might try dropping a land but I'm not to keen on that. Speaking of lands, my manabase is not 100% optimized - I am missing the two Zendikar U fetches we can play. I'm hoping they get reprinted this fall, hence why I won't have them until then. I will probably cut Copperline Gorge and either Grove of the Burnwillows or Karplusan Forest - I'm not sure if I want to improve other's Ad Naz or hurt my own. Most likely cutting the Forest, because we (1)generally DGAF about the other deck's wincons at the table, only their disruption; and (2) that sweet sweet Future Sight frame.
Thank you, Random_ScrubMTG, for giving this list a real chance. It is really fast and consistent, and can also occasionally fight the hate. I'm a bit sad to say that I have moved away from this version of Prossh, and even the double Craterhoof version I was playing in the other Prossh thread. Ironically, I am playing a midrange combo Prossh based around Kiki-Conscripts / Mike-Trike / Melira-Redcap and turning Prossh into a value / control machine. After a year of playing Prossh, I can safely say that midrange combo is indeed the most consistently powerful version of the deck, able to deal with all sorts of crap thrown at it.
As of now, this version of the deck has been retired. I don't know if I'll make a new thread for the new Prossh list, or perhaps just convert this one to the new one. Depends on interest I guess.
I'm not a Prossh player, but have had this experience in other EDH decks, including a friends's Sharuum and my own Jarad. The all-in combo decks are almost always worse than the the midrange versions of the same deck that have the ability to be all-in combo.
To counter the bolded text, midrange is much more of an answer deck. So while it will be significantly more resilient to disruption then we are, in my experience, it cannot also offer enough disruption of it's own to answer an entire table. And when every other deck at the table goldfishes 3 turns faster, you do NOT want to be forced into the control position.
Whether or not this deck is weaker then a midrange version will be metagame dependent, but at any rate midrange is a good [1v1] matchup for us. FCP works a lot better in my meta, where midrange cannot out-value or consistently answer the whole table - there is too much fast combo. We're faster then everyone, and have just enough disruption to win more then our fair share of games. Or at least, that's how I remember it being. My playgroup is somewhat scattered for the summer so I'm playing mostly 1v1s, I'll be getting some good games in when everyone back after a summer of playing in new metas.
Soooo...no more tuck. Only makes the deck better eh?
The tuck rule change was appreciated, but it was not a major buff to the deck. We were usually faster then cards like Scrumple and Hinder, and we also have the tutor density to just go get Prossh again if they do get through. Most of the decks in my meta got huge upgrades in places of their tuck cards, which is unfortunate. I am mostly happy that my casual decks don't get screwed by people running the tuck cards.
Earlier you posted that this deck could go either faster or slower depending on preference, and you chose to make it faster. I have played Prossh for a while now and I have found that trying to race a table of 4 is impossible (for me at least), especially if all 4 of the decks are fine tuned to the extreme. There are to many counter-spells, removal and taxing effects to make it there on turns 2-3. Don't get me wrong you have a fine concept with the protection package, every acceleration, and the best win conditions for your purpose, and you will win a fair amount of games with that speed. But you said it yourself that you scoop to relevant removal.
That being said I think there is a way to fix this. You can add in Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts as an alternative win condition. The best part is that they would also help with the Food Chain (FC) combo. If the FC combo stretches out to turn 4 or later both Kiki and conscripts can generate a lot of mana by themselves with zealous netting X+1 where X is the highest CMC creature on the table and Kiki netting X+1 where X is the highest cmc of creatures you control, even more if that creature makes mana.
The big problem with this however is that they will most likely not help in those games where you are looking to win turn 3 or earlier as they are both CMC 5. That being said I think the risk of this is worth having an alternative win condition in the deck itself.
There are more options to diversify the deck, but I believe this to be the best way to add in the extra resiliency that you need.
(other options include: Melira Pod chain, Reanimation package, Earthcraft, and Instakill cards like Berserk)
I disagree with diluting the deck by putting in backups. I think you would be better served running additional sources of redundancy or disruption. That is a 2 card combo that needs RRRR+6 - if you're struggling to get early game wins, I don't see how you could possibly resolve that late game unless you're playing pure attrition games.
I don't mean to imply that we can't answer problematic cards - anything that would stop us from winning, we can deal with because Jund has great removal. The problem is stopping others from winning - specifically, stopping 3 others.
Gas isn't the problem at all, other options are Greater Good and Life's Finale. You can also run Survival of the Fittest and Evolutionary Leap.
I should say that my meta at the time of writing is Ad Nauseaum decks and non-black control decks. We allow full proxies as well, we just have a preference for fast combo.
I'd love to see your decklist if you still have it.
As far as multi-quoting goes, I just click the quote button for each comment and then copy and paste it into the "Reply to this Topic" field. And to split up quotes I just insert the quote header.
Hi all. Just wanted to say that I'm moving my focus towards moxnix's Prossh Storm list. It's basically this list, slightly slower, but much more resilient and unpredictable in its lines of plays. It decides to focus on Gaea's Cradle effects and huge draw spells to fuel its engine, instead of putting all eggs in one basket.
When I talk about midrange Jund, I'm not talking about midrange control, I'm talking about midrange combo. This means, much like moxnix's Prossh Storm list, there is a TON of ramp, a TON of draw, and a TON of threats. You're not trying to control the board, you're trying to shove threats down their throats at an uncontrollable pace. Cards like Possessed Portal, combined with Prossh, threaten to end the game in the matter of 2 turns. However, I feel that the storm list is much smoother and capitalizes on Prossh's strengths and weaknesses the best.
I will still say that FCP is at least a full 1-2 turns faster than the storm list. That is a huge consideration depending on your meta. The trade off is after your opponents know how the deck works, you are at a severe disadvantage since everyone will be gunning for you first. The difference is that Hermit Druid might actually be able to recover while this deck can not reliably. It's also a bit repetitive to play with and against.
Food Chain does not work with "whenever a creature dies"-triggers, because they never hit the graveyard when they are exiled.
It would work with "whenever a creature leaves the battlefield"-triggers, but i guess there are no relevant cards.
I realize this post is over a year old, but I just had to say - while Food Chain does not create "dies" triggers, the combo does give you infinite creatures, and you can sacrifice them to Prossh for infinite dies triggers.
Hey Razzliox, that is correct and why we play Blood Artist. The next post says the same thing
Here's an update to my list though, I still have a lot of success playing this deck in my "storm and stax" meta. Even if everyone knows what's coming we can often just fight through it.
Smothering Abomination actually does something without Food Chain in hand. Natural Prossh into Abomination should give us the resource to go off that turn or the next... but that hasn't come up yet. I think Eldrazi and their frame look cool, so it's basically all upsides. The only issue is that it (and Skullmulcher) are terrible wincons if everything else is exiled to Demonic Consultation or Divining Witch, which has happened to me once before.
Carpet of Flowers is a meta call, although in the only game I've drawn it in since adding it there was no blue deck. That doesn't come up very often. I got Strip Mined in that game, and had there been a blue deck for turn 1 Land, Carpet, Dork, it would have gone VERY different. That it makes mana under stax effects is even better. So it's earned its spot in my eyes.
Other sacrifice decks have to deal with Blood Artist before they go infinite. Zulaport Cutthroat does not get to do that, but he does beat player hexproof and is a terrible backup wincon if Food Chain is lost forever (but a backup nevertheless!)
Blue is popular, and the dominant strategies are late game "value" decks and voltron. There's no fast combo - I think a good Rafiq draw (or a Prossh draw that looks like one of yours) are the fastest wins. The first 5 turns are usually ramp and setup, even the voltron decks usually spend a few turns durdling. I'd like to take advantage of that, and your list is the fastest I've seen. In other words: I'm looking to speed my deck up as fast as possible, while keeping enough interaction to stop the blue players' interactions (pretty much FoW will be my only fear, at least for the first few games).
This is what I'm running at the moment. I've already changed it a bit from the cards I had on hand, but I'll be making big changes to it in a few weeks (removing most of my removal and all of the enchantment wincons are the big ones)
//Creatures
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Wood Elves
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dark Confidant
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Blood Artist
1 Viscera Seer
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
//Artifacts
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Mana Vault
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Talisman of Impulse
1 Skullclamp
//Enchantments
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Food Chain
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Shared Animosity
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dark Ritual
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Krosan Grip
1 Murderous Cut
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Tainted Strike
1 Terminate
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
//Sorceries
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Ancient Craving
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Duress
1 Farseek
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Nature's Lore
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Triumph of the Hordes
1 Vandalblast
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil
//Lands
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Graven Cairns
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Marsh Flats
1 Strip Mine
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sharuum just runs Bitter Ordeal as a win con (arbitrary gravestorm with Sharuum and Sculpting Steel), so a very reasonable playline is Gravestorm -> Snapcaster on a later turn. I'm not sure what you would call this - an incidental weakness to Sharuum? At any rate, they have to have it in hand or tutor it, and if they use it as an answer then they open themselves up to grave hate way earlier then they need to.
Also, shortest answer - Riftsweeper.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Moxnix you're correct and incorrect about this list at the same time. I don't have any enablers outside of Food Chain to win. Sure I guess I could manually win with something like Purphoros, but it's pretty much impossible. In my paper list, I cut Riftsweeper in favor of more anti-blue since I never run into cap effects.
There is an even faster and more risky version of this list played by Shady Wolf. He eschews some slower cards and protection for more acceleration (ie. Chrome Mox), and I think that's a fine strategy since this list is already so dense with combo pieces.
As for Fate Reforged, there's really nothing worth adding. Kolaghan is another finisher, but I don't think it's necessarily better than anything already in here.
Alas, I haven't played this deck in a long time. I've taken it apart in favor of a more "fair" Prossh list. You can check it out in bighaben and ferverous' thread. It's focused around reanimating or copying Craterhoof Behemoth twice in the same turn. The deck plays more friendly in a variety of metagames and isn't as cutthroat as this list. Although FCP is still my pride, I acknowledge that it is a very boring deck to play.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Shame that you don't play the deck anymore. Did you stop because the deck got boring, or did your group ask you to stop playing it? Do you still think FCP is the optimal Prossh list for high-powered metas?
I went and looked through the other thread and I came across this comment of yours:
I don't have Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Imperial Recruiter, and it will be a while before I can pick them up. I also was not planning on running cards like Divining Witch (although I understand your reasoning for running them). Given that, do you think that it's better to stick with combo/control instead of switching to FCP?
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
This is the current list I'm running and it's been doing turn 4-5 wins at my local commander tournaments. It's a nice mix of cutthroat and casual. Trying to figure out how to improve it without breaking the bank. Ideas are welcome...
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Guttural Response
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mana Vault
1 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Arbor Elf
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Boreal Druid
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Treasured Find
1 Defense Grid
1 Shred Memory
1 Tainted Pact
1 Plunge Into Darkness
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Blood Artist
1 Divining Witch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Priest of Titania
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Riftsweeper
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Devoted Druid
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Roots
1 Regrowth
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Priest of Urabrask
1 Goblin Matron
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Necropotence
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Fierce Empath
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wood Elves
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 City of Solitude
1 Food Chain
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Skullmulcher
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
[Lands]
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Shadowblood Ridge
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Graven Cairns
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Savage Lands
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Temple of the False God
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Dragonskull Summit
EDH
U Azami, Lady of Scrolls
GBGlissa, the Traitor
Modern
X Affinity
EDH
BUGTasigur, the Golden Fang (French 1v1)
Modern
RWG Burn
Basically this deck is all-in for its execution. If Food Chain gets countered/destroyed you're in a LOT of trouble. In my build I have Regrowth, Treasured Find, and Eternal Witness for graveyard recursion and riftsweeper for exile effects. Outside of that, Purphoros is your main out (he does still shoot everyone but you for 14 off the first Prossh cast, and 12 even if they counter Prossh).
The really SOL play for this deck isn't having food chain countered however; have Food Chain blown up after a few loops of combo or have Prossh countered 3 loops in. Then you're in a position where you most likely are going to die a horrible, painful death. Luckily, I have both City of Solitude, Dosan, and Defense Grid to protect the combo along with Vexing Shusher and the trilogy of one mana counters for blue. Out of maybe 50 games with this deck, I've been destroyed with a counter 2 games (which is equal to the games I've lost with Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact [Food Chain last card in deck off EoT tainted pact /sadface])
Playing a deck list such as Food Chain Prossh that has so much speed and tutoring ability means that you'll pull out wins that you have no business winning. Monday night I was playing against a Kruphix player who knows what the deck can do and two other blue commanders. I had to mulligan (not Paris mulligan either) to 4 due to horrible draws. Landed a Shusher turn 2 off the topdeck and comboed off turn 5. Saddest part of the win was having to Plunge Into Darkness EoT turn 3 to get a land for Food Chain. This deck has the ability to do degenerate, disgusting things and you WILL be the target of the whole table. The fact that you can and most likely will win over half the time with that caveat merely speaks to the power of the list.
Just proxy up any of the lists here (MCR's latest or AngelForge's or my own build) and goldfish the deck 30 times. Don't goldfish it 10 times. Just don't. When I finished getting the cards for this deck and transformed my mid-range Prossh build with Xenagod, T&N Mikaeus/Trisk, and Melira/Redcap combo wins my average goldfish was turn 8. I was EXTREMELY disappointed with the build. This is not an easy deck to pilot off a list. Some of the tutor choices are difficult to discern at first glance. I'm now down to very consistant turn 4 goldfishes and have pulled more than a couple turn 2 wins.
I play in a blue-dominant meta, so I usually wait till I have at least one counter of my own before trying to go off, preferably more. If you lose a stack war, the gameplan is recover FC as fast as possible in case of grave hate and go off again on a later turn.
I've changed my list a bit since my last post:
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Arcane Lighthouse
1 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Graven Cairns
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Homeward Path
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Twilight Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Talisman of Impulse
1 Skullclamp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Arbor Elf
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Devoted Druid
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Wood Elves
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Riftsweeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dark Confidant
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
//Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
1 Food Chain
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Dark Ritual
1 Nature's Claim
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Seedtime
1 Terminate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Murderous Cut
//Sorcery
1 Duress
1 Faithless Looting
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Imperial Seal
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ambition's Cost
1 Ancient Craving
1 Damnation
1 Harmonize
I've made some concessions to the other fast combo in my meta (see the excessive removal), but I'll be changing that when I can replace the rest of my draw with the missing tutors. My manabase needs to be cleaned up, mostly more fetches and prisma lands need to go in and Arcane Lighthouse and the some of the basics/filters need to come out. I like Volrath's Stronghold a lot but it's probably too slow for a deck like this. Too bad it can't target any card.
Lotus Cobra and Seedtime are untested additions. Lotus Cobra seems good and every time I draw it, it'll act as a reminder that I need to get the remaining fetchlands. Not sure about Seedtime but I had one and wanted to try it out.
I had an interesting loss the other night. The table was Surrak, Rafiq, Wydwen, and Prossh. It was turn 4 or 5, I had 4 elves in play, a Pyroblast, Cradle, and a dork in my hand. I drew a Wheel of Fortune. I played out my hand and then played Cradle, Wheel (floating a bunch of green and a black with no lands untap). The wheel was Force-d, to which I Pyroblasted. After the Pyroblast resolved but before the Wheel did, the Wydwen player cast Evacuate, losing me all my elves. I drew a Wall of Blossoms, Vampiric Tutor, some dorks, and no kill spell. I used the one black I had left to Vampiric Tutor for Yawgmoth's Will, before casting Wall of Blossom and the dorks with the remaining mana and passing. Before it was my next turn again I was Bojuka Bog-d. Couldn't get anywhere and died to Rafiq the next turn. Perhaps the correct playline was tutor for Ad Naseaum and pass, holding the Wall of Blossoms in hand. Given that the Wydwen player saw the Bog from his Sensei's Divining Top and my meta is very light on graveyard hate, the Yawgmoth's Will playline was probably right, but I'm not sure.
What are you're thoughts on Craterhoof Behemoth? It's not a win-con with FC, but if something goes terribly wrong it's not the worst backup plan. At the very least, casting a bunch of elves and Behemothing the player that stopped you will be satisfying.
I don't remember if this was discussed already, but what would a Prossh wishboard look like? The options are Burning Wish (Sorcery), Death Wish (Any), and Living Wish (Creature or Land). Maybe LW, playing the Behemoth, Rune-Scarred Demon, Glacial Chasm, a Prisma land, and 6 other good cards? I don't like wishes in EDH (format is 100 card singleton not 100 card + 10) so I don't play with them, but they're worth discussing in a thread that's tagged 'Competitive' for the playgroups that do use them.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
Let me know how lotus cobra goes. He's on my shortlist for additions. As for seedtime, not sold on it. If they counter a combo piece, the time walk probably won't be enough to get you back in the game. Treasonous Ogre was in my old midrange Prossh list and it's a pretty good late game draw to get you out of a jam. Craterhoof is just SOOO slow. We're not dropping a ton of bodies short of elves/kobolds. If we have the former, we have Prossh. If we have the latter, we're already in trouble w/o Prossh. Craterhoof IMO is more of a Tooth and Nail target in a deck like this. Of course we're not running T&N.
Also, dat removal suite...wow. So much removal. I'm iffy on the deed and damnation. Both amazing removal, but 4 drop removal is so slow in combo. 'Tis better to be the one who knocks, as they say. Nature's claim, Ancient Grudge, Terminate, Sudden Spoiling, Toxic Deluge, Krosan Grip, Murderous Cut, Thoughtseize, and Duress. That's a lot of removal/Fog in some cases. I'd argue you're running 12 removal spells not counting REB/Pyroblast. No Putrefy? More of a swiss army knife option. Also, Beast Within or Chaos Warp could really get some mileage for you. Also, as a shortlist replacement for myself, I've considered Shriekmaw for a removal option. It's somewhat narrow with the non-black/non-artifact restriction, but it it's a tutorable option with worldly for removal and options are never bad. Also on a totally crazy tangent idea, what about Tangle? If swarms or stupid activated ability commanders are giving you issues it really is a double Time Walk against them. Stranger things have happened and it will be a second Sudden Spoiling nine times out of ten.
For that loss, Ad Nauseam was the right call there IMO. It's turn 5 on untap, so you can EoT ad nauseam for the win. Yawg win is just a high risk/low reward option there IMO. You Will the next turn, replay your board and pass. You're still no closer to the combo sans the card on the draw step. If it's any consolation, I lost a game recently casting Summoner's Pact as a GSZ on turn 2 and promptly lost. So it's easy to make suboptimal plays that look great in the moment, but less so in hindsight.
Prossh wishboard isn't terribly hard to envision. Rogue's Passage, Strip Mine/Wasteland/Ghost Quarter, Extractor Demon (sometimes mill is only option for Food Chain win),Fulminator Mage, Xenagos, God of Revels is a personal favorite of mine with Prossh for the one-shot of out nowhere with it and was my last cut in my list. After that you start getting cute on options...Rune-scarred Demon, something cute like Thran Quarry or Undiscovered Paradise, Urabrask the Hidden, Burn at the Stake (they NEVER see it coming), and Price of progress can steal a win (or kill you), Dosan the falling Leaf, and I suppose you could slide one part of a two card combo into the MD like melira, sylvok outcast and run Murderous Redcap in wishboard.
Tainted Pact is definitely going in, just a matter of getting it. Sad about the Behemoth, he's one of my favorite green cards to cast but you're right in that he's too slow for a list like this. The ogre will probably go for cheaper CMC dorks soon but I'll miss him, he makes for some really silly playlines. You've hit the nail on the head with Seedtime, but I told one of my friends I'd try it out.
12 removal spells woah, I didn't realize it was that bad but I hadn't counted in a long time. I plan on cutting that down heavily once I get more mana dorks (still missing Boreal Druid and a few of the others). Pernicious Deed, Damnation, and Murderous Cut/Terminate definitely need to go, maybe Sudden Spoiling as well because it's slow and doesn't do much other then stall. The Toxic Deluge probably should be cut as well. It's really obvious that my build is formerly Midrange, but that's changing. Makes a lot of the cuts really easy at least. Chaos Warp might have a place, but I'm looking to remove removal. It might still go in, in replace of one of the less-generic removal spells. I'd like to find room for Abrupt Decay as well.
Tangle seems really good, it definitely hits a lot of the decks in my meta. I'll keep my eyes open for one to see how it works. I think that my group has a lot more aggro-type decks (voltron control being the biggest one) then most advanced metas do so Tangle might very well earn it's ink here. Not sure how it would work in more combo-heavy groups.
Can you Unearth with Food chain mana? It might be worth running Extractor Demon maindeck if so. I'm unsold given that everyone in my playgroup keeps an Eldrazi in their binder, but I like the redundancy of being able to replay it.
My thoughts on the RSD in the wishboard - it lets your Living/Death wish act as a FC tutor or kill card tutor, and you can cast it off of FC mana. Burn at the Stake is such an awesome card, too bad it's not mainboard material. If there was a "double" combo piece - one that worked with another card in the SB, but also directly worked towards FC - that would be worth running, but I don't think it's worth playing a card like Melira maindeck (unless you have a lot of infect in your meta).
Edit: Got some new cards today.
+1 Tainted Pact -1 Ancient Craving
+1 Demonic Consultation -1 Ambition's Cost
+1 Dimir Machinations -1 Harmonize
+1 Summoner's Pact -1 Sign in Blood
+1 Goblin Matron -1 Phyrexian Arena
+1 Fierce Empath -1 Worldly Tutor
+1 Elvish Spirit Guide -1 Damnation
+1 Plunge into Darkness -1 Sudden Spoiling
+1 Xantid Swarm -1 Farhaven Elf
+1 Skullmulcher -1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Treasured Find -1 Krosan Grip
+1 Priest of Titania -1 Faithless Looting
+1 Deathbringer Thoctar -1 Terminate
+1 Snow-Covered Forest -1 Forest
I think these are obvious cuts for the most part. A lot of these cards were midrange cards that weren't fast enough for a dedicated FC build. I'm sad about cutting Faithless Looting, definitely looking to put it back into the list but I'm not sure what should go. Cutting Terminate worries me a bit. I can stick a dork in the way of more traditional voltron, but there's also the big bad Hermit Druid. No one plays it in my meta so I've never faced it. Are we faster then them? Can we afford leaving that matchup to the coinflip or the rest of the table's interaction?
Skullclamp is a midrange holdover that I'm having a hard time cutting. Why aren't we playing it here?
Still missing some cards, the big 3 being Imperial Recruiter, Mana Crypt, Grim Tutor. Still need a few of the RG counters as well. Hopefully going to get those soon.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
I believe that the black tutors are what make this deck viable. I don't really know many other decks other than something like 5C combo or Oona that can play Demonic Consultation and friends. However, the issue with FCP is that it is inherently inferior to some of these decks. The main reason is that while speed and consistency are at an all-time high, it's still a turn slower than the fastest combo decks in the format, and it sacrifices all resilience for it. That makes this kind of an inferior combo deck in a well-tuned metagame.
But to answer your question, I would not play this deck without the tutors. It is 100% vital.
Thank you, Random_ScrubMTG, for giving this list a real chance. It is really fast and consistent, and can also occasionally fight the hate. I'm a bit sad to say that I have moved away from this version of Prossh, and even the double Craterhoof version I was playing in the other Prossh thread. Ironically, I am playing a midrange combo Prossh based around Kiki-Conscripts / Mike-Trike / Melira-Redcap and turning Prossh into a value / control machine. After a year of playing Prossh, I can safely say that midrange combo is indeed the most consistently powerful version of the deck, able to deal with all sorts of crap thrown at it.
As of now, this version of the deck has been retired. I don't know if I'll make a new thread for the new Prossh list, or perhaps just convert this one to the new one. Depends on interest I guess.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I would like to see your current midrange list, could you provide a link to it?
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
I'm not a Prossh player, but have had this experience in other EDH decks, including a friends's Sharuum and my own Jarad. The all-in combo decks are almost always worse than the the midrange versions of the same deck that have the ability to be all-in combo.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
That being said I think there is a way to fix this. You can add in Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Zealous Conscripts as an alternative win condition. The best part is that they would also help with the Food Chain (FC) combo. If the FC combo stretches out to turn 4 or later both Kiki and conscripts can generate a lot of mana by themselves with zealous netting X+1 where X is the highest CMC creature on the table and Kiki netting X+1 where X is the highest cmc of creatures you control, even more if that creature makes mana.
The big problem with this however is that they will most likely not help in those games where you are looking to win turn 3 or earlier as they are both CMC 5. That being said I think the risk of this is worth having an alternative win condition in the deck itself.
To sum it up here are the changes I suggest:
Akki Rockspeaker to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Quirion Sentinel to Zealous Conscripts
There are more options to diversify the deck, but I believe this to be the best way to add in the extra resiliency that you need.
(other options include: Melira Pod chain, Reanimation package, Earthcraft, and Instakill cards like Berserk)
BRGProssh Skyraider of Kher
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Food Chain
//Ramp
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Dark Ritual
1 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Boreal Druid
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wood Elves
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Priest of Gix
//Defense
1 City of Solitude
1 Defense Grid
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Guttural Response
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ricochet Trap
//Interaction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Dark Confidant
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Necropotence
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wheel of Fortune
//Tutors
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Divining Witch
1 Fierce Empath
1 Goblin Matron
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Imperial Seal
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Tainted Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor
//Kills
1 Blood Artist
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
//Recursion
1 Eternal Witness
1 Treasured Find
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Riftsweeeper
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Mana Confluence
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Current thoughts: I want more 1cmc mana dorks that tap for B, but I don't think they exist. I want to get Den Protector and Regrowth in, maybe cutting Reclamation Sage. Abrupt decay answers problematic permanents much better then the Sage, however the Sage gets eaten by Chain...
I'm quite happy with how the deck plays. It's very smooth, and I'm usually either trying to go off on turn 3, or my resources are such that I can take a very safe turn 4 combo (with all that sweet Jund stack disruption). I'd like to get Thoughtseize into the deck as an additional source of protection. I might try dropping a land but I'm not to keen on that. Speaking of lands, my manabase is not 100% optimized - I am missing the two Zendikar U fetches we can play. I'm hoping they get reprinted this fall, hence why I won't have them until then. I will probably cut Copperline Gorge and either Grove of the Burnwillows or Karplusan Forest - I'm not sure if I want to improve other's Ad Naz or hurt my own. Most likely cutting the Forest, because we (1)generally DGAF about the other deck's wincons at the table, only their disruption; and (2) that sweet sweet Future Sight frame.
To counter the bolded text, midrange is much more of an answer deck. So while it will be significantly more resilient to disruption then we are, in my experience, it cannot also offer enough disruption of it's own to answer an entire table. And when every other deck at the table goldfishes 3 turns faster, you do NOT want to be forced into the control position.
Whether or not this deck is weaker then a midrange version will be metagame dependent, but at any rate midrange is a good [1v1] matchup for us. FCP works a lot better in my meta, where midrange cannot out-value or consistently answer the whole table - there is too much fast combo. We're faster then everyone, and have just enough disruption to win more then our fair share of games. Or at least, that's how I remember it being. My playgroup is somewhat scattered for the summer so I'm playing mostly 1v1s, I'll be getting some good games in when everyone back after a summer of playing in new metas.
The tuck rule change was appreciated, but it was not a major buff to the deck. We were usually faster then cards like Scrumple and Hinder, and we also have the tutor density to just go get Prossh again if they do get through. Most of the decks in my meta got huge upgrades in places of their tuck cards, which is unfortunate. I am mostly happy that my casual decks don't get screwed by people running the tuck cards.
I disagree with diluting the deck by putting in backups. I think you would be better served running additional sources of redundancy or disruption. That is a 2 card combo that needs RRRR+6 - if you're struggling to get early game wins, I don't see how you could possibly resolve that late game unless you're playing pure attrition games.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
Gas isn't the problem at all, other options are Greater Good and Life's Finale. You can also run Survival of the Fittest and Evolutionary Leap.
I should say that my meta at the time of writing is Ad Nauseaum decks and non-black control decks. We allow full proxies as well, we just have a preference for fast combo.
I'd love to see your decklist if you still have it.
As far as multi-quoting goes, I just click the quote button for each comment and then copy and paste it into the "Reply to this Topic" field. And to split up quotes I just insert the quote header.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
In regards to my midrange list, you can find it here: http://deckstats.net/decks/1909/47316--competitive-prossh-midrange-c/en
When I talk about midrange Jund, I'm not talking about midrange control, I'm talking about midrange combo. This means, much like moxnix's Prossh Storm list, there is a TON of ramp, a TON of draw, and a TON of threats. You're not trying to control the board, you're trying to shove threats down their throats at an uncontrollable pace. Cards like Possessed Portal, combined with Prossh, threaten to end the game in the matter of 2 turns. However, I feel that the storm list is much smoother and capitalizes on Prossh's strengths and weaknesses the best.
I will still say that FCP is at least a full 1-2 turns faster than the storm list. That is a huge consideration depending on your meta. The trade off is after your opponents know how the deck works, you are at a severe disadvantage since everyone will be gunning for you first. The difference is that Hermit Druid might actually be able to recover while this deck can not reliably. It's also a bit repetitive to play with and against.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I realize this post is over a year old, but I just had to say - while Food Chain does not create "dies" triggers, the combo does give you infinite creatures, and you can sacrifice them to Prossh for infinite dies triggers.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Here's an update to my list though, I still have a lot of success playing this deck in my "storm and stax" meta. Even if everyone knows what's coming we can often just fight through it.
-1 Priest of Gix +1 Regrowth
-1 Falkenrath Noble +1 Smothering Abomination
-1 Boreal Druid +1 Carpet of Flowers
Change I haven't done yet: -1 Blood Artist +1 Zulaport Cutthroat
Reasons:
Treasured Find should have been Regrowth, but they were so similar (and the harder mana cost never came up) that I didn't feel the need to go buy a Regrowth. I wanted the additional copy, and now have 4+1 recursion spells: Eternal Witness, Yawgmoth's Will, Regrowth, Treasured Find, Riftsweeper. Den Protector is the next recursion spell I'll add if I want another one.
Smothering Abomination actually does something without Food Chain in hand. Natural Prossh into Abomination should give us the resource to go off that turn or the next... but that hasn't come up yet. I think Eldrazi and their frame look cool, so it's basically all upsides. The only issue is that it (and Skullmulcher) are terrible wincons if everything else is exiled to Demonic Consultation or Divining Witch, which has happened to me once before.
Carpet of Flowers is a meta call, although in the only game I've drawn it in since adding it there was no blue deck. That doesn't come up very often. I got Strip Mined in that game, and had there been a blue deck for turn 1 Land, Carpet, Dork, it would have gone VERY different. That it makes mana under stax effects is even better. So it's earned its spot in my eyes.
Other sacrifice decks have to deal with Blood Artist before they go infinite. Zulaport Cutthroat does not get to do that, but he does beat player hexproof and is a terrible backup wincon if Food Chain is lost forever (but a backup nevertheless!)
I am thinking of adding Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond for better turn 1s and to improve our Ad Nauseam. Zulaport Cutthroat will likely go in with them and Fierce Empath and Deathbringer Thoctar (and one more card) will be coming out.
Edit: Card Tags + spelling
Edit2:
-1 Fierce Empath +1 Chrome Mox
-1 Deathbringer Thoctar +1 Mox Diamond
-1 Cruel Tutor +1 Zulaport Cutthroat
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
I'll be updating the link in my signature on Monday when the mulligan rules change.
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids