Got in 5 games tonight with a slightly different playgroup. Won 3 of them. My opponents were Azami, Damia, and 5C Omni.
I haven't played with 2 of these guys before, so they aren't fully aware of what the deck was capable of.
Game 1: I keep a turn 3 winner with protection. Azami tries to Negate my Food Chain, I REB and go off. Game 2: I manage a turn 2 winner via turn 1 Mana Crypt into Sylvan Library. I draw all 3 cards and hit Lotus Petal, Burning Tree Emissary, and Fierce Empath. Land, Petal, shotgun Food Chain (no responses), play + eat Emissary (RGGGG mana), Fierce Empath (RG) for Chancellor, eat Empath (RGBBBB), cast Prossh, go infinite, Chancellor for the win. Game 3: I keep a slower hand with Bob. 5C Omni has a turn 3 Flash-Rector with Misdirection backup. Game 4: I have another turn 3 winner with protection. Damia attempts to Drain my Food Chain, I Guttural Response, and Azami Swan Songs it. Can't win em all. Damia ramps hard and goes into infinite turns. Game 5: Pretty long game. I keep a hand with tons of ramp and draw, but can't find a tutor for the life of me. Omni tries to Show and Tell; the blue decks get into a few counter wars. I draw into Ad Nauseam and attempt to cast it EOT. It gets countered. I untap and draw Food Chain raw and go off.
---
Pretty happy with the deck in its current incarnation. I definitely have speed on my side. Granted, these guys will know how to play against me next time. Few things of note:
Countermagic is far more common than spot removal. Where people may play anywhere from 1 to 3 anti-enchantment spells, they'll always play 6-8 counterspells.
Oddly enough, didn't like seeing Ad Nauseam. Never had the ramp to cast it early. By the time I got the ball rolling, I didn't need it. The one time I cast it, it was countered. It probably would've won me the game though. Still going to test.
MVPS: all of my ETB effect creatures - seriously, every one of them. They make the deck blazing fast.
I think this deck is nearing the best it can be. The only way to make it better would be adding defensive options that don't give up speed. Anything that is a creature is a plus, since they can still be used as +1 mana during the Food Chaining phase. Small sample size aside, my opening hands have been astoundingly consistent. I would dare argue that this deck can definitely compete with the big boys.
Cool beans, if I get some money I might just build this list since it's actually cheaper than mine (well the bare bones of it anyway). Was this your elf ball version or the new FCP?
Defense Grid looks to be the best out of the ones you mentioned if only because it's the cheapest. Dosan is probably a close second because it can be NOM NOMed.
Cool beans, if I get some money I might just build this list since it's actually cheaper than mine (well the bare bones of it anyway). Was this your elf ball version or the new FCP?
Defense Grid looks to be the best out of the ones you mentioned if only because it's the cheapest. Dosan is probably a close second because it can be NOM NOMed.
Nope, I abandoned the elf version. Too durdley. It sucks cause I actually have a ton of foil elves from an even older version of this deck. Maybe I'll make Ezuri or something for fun.
I'm going to post my updated list and revise the first page to be up to date. Kind of want to primer status this, but interest is really low overall so probably not. Would love if more people wanted to make cutthroat decks haha.
Still highly considering adding the complete defense suite (Claim, Grid, City, Dosan). I think it might be what the deck needs to perform at the higher levels consistently.
And almost as I was about to write this primer, it's as if the stars have aligned. Some of the 1v1 pilots over in Europe have discovered that Prossh Elfball is INDEED a thing. I will need to take a closer look at these lists and ponder their choices. Obviously many more 1v1 facilities, but I guess I wasn't that crazy!
And almost as I was about to write this primer, it's as if the stars have aligned. Some of the 1v1 pilots over in Europe have discovered that Prossh Elfball is INDEED a thing. I will need to take a closer look at these lists and ponder their choices. Obviously many more 1v1 facilities, but I guess I wasn't that crazy!
One thing I noticed is the lack of infinites. In 1v1, it's much easier just to ramp into Prossh and ride the token value train to victory. In multiplayer, that's a bit harder. Because of the amount of ramp in this deck, I would highly consider playing Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker and Zealous Conscripts. I think they can be played over weaker cards like Xenagos, God of Revels and Sarkhan Vol. Both seem much stronger for 1v1 beatdown strategies. The one thing that is kind of interesting is using the lock cards, like Contamination to devastate the multi-color decks and quickly punish the mono-colored decks. That strategy would actually work in my 3C+ metagame. But I might as well just take that lock and use the ramp to abuse Necropotence or a 1-shot card like Tooth and Nail. Opinions?
What this list offers is a whole new level of synergies. Untap creatures can be used with cards like Fauna Shaman and Yisan, The Wanderer Bard to setup some disgusting chain of ramp and value. The higher density of threats makes this deck look like a blast to play. Just look at the busted green card section! If anything, it will be less speedy / consistent than my original build, but will be a lot more interesting to play.
MCR do you actually have this list or is it what you'd like to have? I'm never sure when I see Imperial Seal and Grim tutor? I understand it's best to theory craft with no inhibitions.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Yeah, I was also oogling at the two cards that stood out for me: contamination and Yisan. They seem like cards that wreck decks if not answered fast enough.
I think it is pretty safe to take both lists as a shell that can be improved to suit multiplayer.
I would leave out xenagos and the planeswalkers. They essentially add nothing of immense value (unless I misread of the walkerabilities). I would add some extra tutors (chord of calling is suddenly feasable) and go for 2 kill conditions tops.
Also: noxious revival is a beast at recurring our most precious cards: tutors.
P.s. Typing from my phone. I will reply with better grammar & structure tonight.
Yea I'll have to revise this list a little. I think I'm just going to focus on Food Chain, Kiki-Conscripts, and Craterhoof Behemoth backup plan. Those are the most compact win conditions without heading into Necrotic Ooze land.
MCR do you actually have this list or is it what you'd like to have? I'm never sure when I see Imperial Seal and Grim tutor? I understand it's best to theory craft with no inhibitions.
You know what? I realized I never posted any pictures of this deck. It's nearly all foil. I had to sell my foil fetches last year to pay for my Modern Jund deck, but the deck is still completely in tact and I play it whenever I can. Here's a picture of the more expensive cards in the deck, along with a custom altered Prossh (gold foiling):
I see you cheaped out and went chinese on your seal as well lol.
HAHA. Yea English seal is a bit much. I bought the Imperial several years ago when I just needed a copy of the card. I suppose one day (many days later), I will ABU out my lands and get an English seal.
EDIT:
Here's a revised list with Tooth and Nail. Cleaned up some of the creatures. It's not really elf ball, just elf ramp with a bunch of creature-based synergies. There's some cute stuff in here like Voyaging Satyr that works well with Wild Growth (underplayed ramp card) and Underworld Connections. Not sure if replacing those with more powerful multiplayer cards would be beneficial.
I think signal the clans could have its use in your list. fetches Purphoros & craterhoof (which I assume are your main wincons) nicely. The single R in Purphoros makes it easier to cast then kiki & conscripts (unless you have tooth and nail first).
I also recommend gutteral response as a way of protecting the second you combo out, or even reverberate (however double R does put some strain on your mana base).
Edit: Missing Elvish Visionary though, you have wirewood symbiote, so might as well use the ramp/draw engine. I would cut fauna shaman for it. Just so conditionally slow.. You really need anger in your yard to get it going, otherwise it is just a turn on the battlefield.
Otherwise, awesome deck list. All the elf interactions are gonna take time to get used to though. Tried my hands a couple of times at an legacy elf deck. Welp, that was a different kind of animal.
Something else completely, but do you have a close-up of that Prossh card? It looks very cool!
Edit2: we should start an online prossh fanclub, together with Rowan, Batdown, Feverous & Bighaben.
Thanks for chiming in. Would love new brains on this build.
Signal the Clans would've been better in my old build, cause I could grab three completely redundant finishers. In this case, there are completely separate finishers for different situations. The cool part about this deck is that it doesn't waste slots, meaning you can easily just play strong cards like Birthing Pod for value, utility, or just to trade a 3-drop for Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Gutteral Response and friends used to be in my old deck. Not entirely sure what my defense suite with this deck would look like. Since there are so many more avenues to victory, I'm actually not as concerned with winning ASAP while trying to barrel through mounds of hate.
Fauna Shaman is a creature tutor that is also a creature. In a combo-centric build, this is invaluable, especially when your primary win condition is still Food Chain.
I have this weird feeling that my old decklist is still far more optimized. This elf-ish list will need to undergo some extreme scrutiny over the course of the week before I'll reach a happy point with it.
As for a closeup of the alter, I had Yawg07 (Gus Schade) paint it. It's gorgeous
EDIT:
Woah those images came out huge. Anyone know how to manually control the size?
Anyways, I went through my old list. I thought I'd put my finishing touches on it before focusing on the elf version. In light of the deck being too much of a glass cannon, I've opted to remove all of the higher-risk cards in favor of more defense. I mean cards like Orcish Lumberjack exchanged for Devoted Druid. Both respectably powerful, but one thing this deck hates doing is sacrificing cards for speed.
Next I will be continuing to work on the elf version because it looks to have more potential as the game grows. The main things I'm looking to abuse are elves for ramp; using the same elves to feed into the Food Chain combo; using elf ramp to play devastating green-based engines, such as Birthing Pod; increase the overall threat density of the deck by including lock cards that elves can bypass, such as Blood Moon. Primary combos in the deck will still be Kiki-Jiki and Food Chain. I think this is finally the deck that will be the culmination of all of my experience playing Prossh - and, awesome enough, it borrows a little bit from each strategy I've dipped in so far.
First off, that Prossh is a genuine awesome alter. I would love to have a card in that style, without nicking the original.
I recommend you take a look at the Elves thread in legacy, the OP contains a lot of valuable information towards the different lines of play possible with all the small details. Elvish Visionary is a beast in drawing cards. Also it is an awesome blocker, Block and straight up return it to your hand with wirewood symbiote. Something which has always been my problem in the early turns, not drawing enough cards or not having enough blockers to stop the first waves of attacking creatures.
I don't have any experience with fauna shaman, so I could be a bit biased because of plain theorycrafting on my behalf. I just don't see how it can affect the second it comes into play without having anger out in the graveyard. I Sarkhan Vol would be added, that would change quite much. His +1/+1 ability would also be quite the nice backup plan, with the infinite loop made by Prossh and food chain. Plus creatures of the opponent can be used to feed food chain. But then again, what to cut for it?
Also Elvish Harbinger would be good in an elf deck, just another tutor that can get you the required elf, plus she's can be played more then once with the symbiote if needed be.
I'll try out an elvish version myself, as the tribal effect is so strong that it could be the missing link I sometimes have while navigating Prossh. Might be a bit different then the list you posted earlier.
Blood moon, contamination and magus of the moon. They can shut down games by themselves. The only thing I have doubts with is the upkeepcost of contamination. Sacrificing the tribal effect of elves for more control, seems to go against the consistency of the elves in the deck to explode on the battlefield and the speed they provide. Or do you sac tokens? I think Dosan, the falling leaf warants a place. Tutorable with GSZ, it is basically one of the better possibilities as this decks is very greenmana dominant.
Regarding Elves...
No matter what you try, EDH elfball will never play like Elves! in Legacy. I know because I played both Legacy and Extended elves when they were available. You can't reach that kind of density and consistency, going absolutely nuts with Nettle Sentinels and Heritage Druid, while drawing out your entire deck. The way elves function in EDH is through 1 to 2 card infinite combo. In the case of Prossh, and the Prossh elfball lists that placed, the elves are merely used for their ramp and toolbox abilities. Because Prossh is already a huge combo enabler (and Food Chain consumes elves), the necessity to reach a super density of elves and to go infinite with Staff of Domination or Umbral Mantle are not necessary.
After closer examination of the 1v1 lists, I have concluded that they cannot be easily ported to multiplayer. The deck succeeds because it has many small value engines and big explosive plays that involve one-shotting your opponent with Craterhoof Behemoth. Obviously this is not the case against three opponents with 40 health each, making bombs like Pattern of Rebirth teeter on the edge of playability. Even the awesome idea of Yisan, The Wanderer Bard, probably won't make the cut. Why? Because he's too slow. Yes, there are chains you can pull off, like:
Sure this is a GREAT value engine. Note that it takes a turn, and costs a total of 9 mana to pull off. This is competitive multiplayer. You should be ending the game with 9 mana. In 1v1, you'll have a lot more time and resources to make this an actual threat, but I can't see this actually being viable in multiplayer. Not even remotely.
Because we are optimizing for multiplayer, we inherently have to optimize for busted combos that kill the table in a single turn. For Jund and Prossh, these combos are explicitly tied to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, and Food Chain. I'm not a fan of playing Necrotic Ooze because it's too much a departure from its roots. You need to start playing graveyard based enablers like Buried Alive and include several dead slots in your mainboard just to accommodate all of the moving parts. Also this deck already exists and has been optimized - it's called Hermit Druid. Trying to create a deck anywhere near this ballpark means you're just going to be completely inferior to this established, powerful archetype.
Food Chain is Prossh's marquee card, no doubt about it. I consider it a no-brainer, and it should definitely be the primary focus of the deck. Everything else already synergizes so well with with. The only point of contention is that you need a lot of creatures on the board / in hand to fuel into Food Chain and then cast Prossh. In my original FCP, this wasn't a problem, but recovery while using the elf version might be since you need to snackrifice a portion of. Because the deck is no longer lazer focused, you lose a lot of moving parts and the power of the combo, its speed, is lost in the shuffle. However, by utilize elves instead of cards that have the sole role of feeding (ie Akki Rockspeaker), you can retain more of your mana in case the combo fails.
The last place to turn is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. There are multiple avenues that lead to his infinites, but I think the three that I am eyeballing are Tooth and Nail, Birthing Pod, and Defense of the Heart. The last one isn't a true avenue - it's more like an aggro deterrent. Still amazing for that exact reason though. Survival of the Fittest is also an engine I want to put in the deck, and we can include another combo within that for a small price: Anger, Devoted Druid, and Necrotic Ooze. I realize the irony of this statement, so I'll leave it open for discussion.
Finally, we turn to the main reason why Elf Chain Prossh (ECP) may be stronger than Food Chain Prossh (FCP). FCP's issue is threat density. Everything funnels into one single combo, and if that fails, the deck has very poor ways of recovering. ECP has the ability to push threat after threat, buying virtual time while indirectly increasing power and resiliency. Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Contamination - they're all amazing soft locks. The concern with Contamination's cost is trivial - YOU'RE PLAYING PROSSH. It also functions as a sac outlet for when you need to cast Prossh again. It's also why this deck runs cards like Wild Growth to help bypass the drawbacks. I would even go as far as playing Null Rod and Choke if your metagame is skewed like mine is.
Again, I'm going to have to slowly comb through the list and figure out what exactly is worth playing and what isn't. 1v1 is VERY different from multiplayer, and most of the cute engines just won't cut it. I'm pretty sure I'll have something to look at this weekend. If all else fails, I'll continue playing my old FCP list.
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Big Edit:
So I was tinkering with my current list. While it is explosive, I'm trying to trade reckless explosiveness for a bit more stability. What I've come up with is cutting the worst creatures in each category and replacing them with more consistent / less dead cards. A good example is Akki Rockspeaker. He's great when attempting to go off, but is otherwise a dead card in hand while waiting for Food Chain. Sure he can act as a boost during your feed ramp phase, but I'd rather create impact. Thus, I replaced him with Wood Elves. The same could be said for the rest of these changes:
Survival always felt like it should've been in this deck. I was even considering adding Squee, Goblin Nabob as yet another way to create some sort of extremely high-threat, value engine.
Impressive it'll take me a while to match that bling, but a Grim Tutor is first priority. I'm attempting to make my list closer to yours, I think it's a bad idea to forsake other win conditions but your consistency is probably the highest in Prossh lists on these forums. Thanks for the regular updates.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Impressive it'll take me a while to match that bling, but a Grim Tutor is first priority. I'm attempting to make my list closer to yours, I think it's a bad idea to forsake other win conditions but your consistency is probably the highest in Prossh lists on these forums. Thanks for the regular updates.
Yea I would definitely invest in the tutors. I've held onto mine for quite a few years, and even though they were "expensive" back then (like $100 for Grim Tutor and $200 for JP Imperial Seal), they were well worth the money spent. The appreciation has been pretty disgusting as well, especially for all of the random foil staples I've collected.
As for multiple avenues of victory, this deck is built for speed, and in the most recent version, some semblance of resilience. I'm pretty close to putting this list down as I brew a more elf-centric build that utilizes the green powerhouse cards I keep talking about. Something involving Birthing Pod, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, and Blood Moon effects to increase threat density and create multiple angles of attack.
So after an evening and a afternoon of multiplayer with some changes:
Yisan: crazy ability, but slowish. It takes some time to get up the verse counters. At two or three he finds most of the deck, but he became quite target once people saw what he could do. Ohwell, means less removal of the other creatures I suppose.
Fauna shaman: better than I expected.
Signal the clans: wow. Beast. With Prossh and food chain on the board this is a kill condition in its own right. The three I always searched for were: goblin bushwacker, purphoros and chancellor of the forge. Even randomised you have a way to kill for two mana.
Dosan the falling leaf. So much control on a single card. In the turns before I set up the wincondition this was always the card I looked for. Even more than contamination.
Hornet nest: good. The tokens having deathtouch and flying is good, as my current setup does not have much protection against flyers. Throwing it in front off a hasted Zurgo was awesome.
No cardtags, I'm typing from my phone, sorry!
Hey so it looks like you were playing elf version?
After some more contemplation, research, and sampling a few dozen hands, I have concluded that a full-on elf ball version of the deck just isn't viable in multiplayer. Sure, you could play the list in a less cutthroat environment. It's actually quite good there, with tons of value plays and cool things you can do over the course of a 10+ turn game. In my primary playgroup, however, decks tend to shoot for the stars starting around turn 4. Because this deck is aggressive by nature, it's hard to try and insert control-type elements into the list without gumming up the strategy. Cards like Contaminaton or Blood Moon are great, but the deck itself doesn't do anything even if you have a soft lock in place. In 1v1, a soft lock is ALL you need because combat damage via Prossh is still highly relevant. All of the 1v1 deck's plays revolve around value, synergy, and Craterhoof Behemoth. While it's admirable, FCP has no room for these cards.
The issue is solely in the fact that you must deal 120 damage across three different opponents. In 1v1, this is not a problem with Prossh. You can get there naturally with your tokens holding the fort, and with cards like Xenagos, God of Revels. In multiplayer, you must rely on combo, so that means you're either utilizing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, or Food Chain. In this deck, Food Chain is the only real answer, because every other strategy asks for a wildly different set of supporting cards.
I stand by my original list for now. I don't think there's another avenue that Prossh can take that will make the deck comparable to the best in the format. Soft lock cards aren't even impossible to play around. A turn 2 Blood Moon can be circumvented by most Esper decks thanks to the sheer number of artifact accelerants they run. The speed issue is very real - the only question is how much speed can you give up in favor of resilience.
After speaking with Shady Wolf, another player who has piloted this list, I've decided a few rules for this deck. Speed is absolutely crucial, yes, but predictability has become a problem. One of the main issues with this deck is how suicidal it is when it comes to throwing away cards for speed. In light of this, I've opted out from perceived staples such as Mox Diamond because, being in non-blue, I really can't afford to throw away cards. Every single card is important. Even a card like Simian Spirit Guide is -1 card for +1 mana. Not worth it. The cards I will keep are the ones that create a large enough advantage to be worth my time. Cards like Dark Ritual and Orcish Lumberjack can be argued to be 1 card for X mana, but the mana is so much more significant for the card spent. Worth it. In Force of Ill's example above, Signal the Clans is a fine card, but why play Signal over another finisher? Finisher in this deck are, in 99% of all scenarios, completely free thanks to Food Chain. Why spend 2 mana? The only creature tutor I would play in this deck is Eladamri's Call since I can be specific about what I want. Unfortunately we're not in that cut of the color pie.
This revelation also led me to just completely cut Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. You're essentially giving up 2 cards and a lot of mana for 1 card. Including Squee, Goblin Nabob isn't going to help either because the amount of time it takes to get the engine going. The only argument you could make for Survival of the Fittest would be to include Basking Rootwalla and Vengevine. At that point, Survival does become quite good, since it is a 1 stop shop for both ramp and tutor chains into your finisher. But even this is realistically too mana intensive to be good, and takes up a lot of slots in the deck for one card. Counting the mana, it'd cost GGGGR4, or 9 mana, all in the same turn to go off. Not worth it. Instead of Survival, I opted just to include another finisher.
Speaking of finishers, I was going to stick this portion in the primer, but I'd like to have everyone's opinions as well. I prefer finishers that cost 5 or less because in the even that I need more creatures to feed chain into Prossh, redundant cards could be turned into mana ramp. However, I think I've exhausted all creature-based possibilities that aren't vulnerable to spot removal. At our 6 drop slot we have Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and Deathbringer Thoctar. I chose the thoctar because it can be used to ping creatures. The demon offers an alternate win, but I don't think it's necessary.
I obviously lack your experience with the deck, but I agree that the demon runs the risk of unintended answers to milling strategies, whereas damage does not and it is preferable for Rage Thrower or 'Thoctar.
This is likely further back, but your thread is impressively long, it seems like if Chord of Calling was once cut, it should have a renewed place now, as it can search out the Goblin Bushwhacker and Chancellor of the Forge, as well as Thoctar or Rage Thrower. The three green may be difficult, but not impossible with the number of elves being run and does allow some resilience potentially.
Since your last build, I've been attempting to mediate between your pure speed and some combos, although I recognise you know what you're doing here one day when I have had more practice I may be able to better comment.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Perhaps it's a matter of different meta games or something, but I find that the fast mana doesn't really hurt me. On the other hand, it is arguable that the speed increase is not worthwhile. Where I play, the all-or-nothing build works well for me.
For example, Simian Spirit Guide is worthwhile when I play, since it fuels so well the likes of Guttural Response and Pyroblast. In fact, the general utility as one-shot ramp has been useful for me too.
This play style, however, is most certainly not without its risks, but the risks I run seem somewhat insubstantial where I play.
That's several lines of my saying the same thing. Heh.
All this said, I think that there is a strong argument that reducing these cards is not a bad idea. I am not too surprised that the elf-based deck did not work out too well, sadly. Was it the board wipes that caused the biggest problem?
I'm sticking with Extractor Demon simply because I like the card. Perhaps a sacrifice in efficiency for preference, but that's just me.
Has Sylvan Ranger been a boon for you? I know that people like it and Gatecreeper Vine for the likes of Prossh and Animar, but they both feel like such dead cards whenever I've drawn them, even with Food Chain.
I obviously lack your experience with the deck, but I agree that the demon runs the risk of unintended answers to milling strategies, whereas damage does not and it is preferable for Rage Thrower or 'Thoctar.
This is likely further back, but your thread is impressively long, it seems like if Chord of Calling was once cut, it should have a renewed place now, as it can search out the Goblin Bushwhacker and Chancellor of the Forge, as well as Thoctar or Rage Thrower. The three green may be difficult, but not impossible with the number of elves being run and does allow some resilience potentially.
Since your last build, I've been attempting to mediate between your pure speed and some combos, although I recognise you know what you're doing here one day when I have had more practice I may be able to better comment.
Chord of Calling was cut because the green mana is just unable to be produced. It's too expensive for what it does, and I would rather just run another win condition in place of it.
And I still value your (and everyone else's) contributions to this thread, regardless of experience. It makes me ponder my choices; deckbuilding in EDH is often distorted by the fractal lens of subjective experiences. Having more angles to put the pieces together is invaluable.
Perhaps it's a matter of different meta games or something, but I find that the fast mana doesn't really hurt me. On the other hand, it is arguable that the speed increase is not worthwhile. Where I play, the all-or-nothing build works well for me.
For example, Simian Spirit Guide is worthwhile when I play, since it fuels so well the likes of Guttural Response and Pyroblast. In fact, the general utility as one-shot ramp has been useful for me too.
This play style, however, is most certainly not without its risks, but the risks I run seem somewhat insubstantial where I play.
That's several lines of my saying the same thing. Heh.
All this said, I think that there is a strong argument that reducing these cards is not a bad idea. I am not too surprised that the elf-based deck did not work out too well, sadly. Was it the board wipes that caused the biggest problem?
I'm sticking with Extractor Demon simply because I like the card. Perhaps a sacrifice in efficiency for preference, but that's just me.
Has Sylvan Ranger been a boon for you? I know that people like it and Gatecreeper Vine for the likes of Prossh and Animar, but they both feel like such dead cards whenever I've drawn them, even with Food Chain.
Thanks for stopping by. As one of the few people that have actually played the deck, your participation makes me warm and fuzzy inside rofl.
I think it's just that I've played enough solitaired games to know that I'd rather keep cards than shed them for slight acceleration, because I often want to keep the cards I'm tossing away. I also tried a version of the deck like yours, where I ran every mana accelerant possible. In the end, it was still very important to have a dork in play to start your feed chain a lot easier. That's why I have cards like Quirion Sentinel and Wood Elves. The only reason I'm not playing Priest of Urabrask, Akki Rockspeaker, and Gatecreeper Vine anymore is because they produce red mana (the most useless color in this deck overall), and they're not elves (to help Priest of Titania). But running at 32 lands, Sylvan Ranger is definitely worth her weight in gold.
The elves issue is that it requires too much of a tribal investment to get anything worthwhile going. Then all the non-1-cmc elves are just worse than playing other ramp, like signets or Nature's Lore. The only two that made it were Devoted Druid and Priest of Titania, as well as some utility elves. It's a side dish, not the main course.
Overall I will agree that this deck is criminally underplayed for how fast and consistent it is. Thanks for helping rep it
EDIT:
OH YES! Before I forget - I'm thinking of cashing in Gaea's Cradle for Karplusan Forest or some other land because we're not maximizing it's potential with less than 10 1-drops and 32 lands. I can sometimes get it to 3 tops, but most of the time it's 1 and it really screws up my mulligans.
ON THAT NOTE, what do people think of Serum Powder?
Indeed, I was playing a slightly modified version of Elfball (more like the one vs one lists).
I ran smooth… but that is all it did. The small intricate reactions are fun to play with, but in the long run they offer us nothing extraordinary of game-winning. Quite the contrary actually, as they took away a lot of the spaces I normally reserve for pure value cards. So I'm going to tick that off as a possibility.
I still think Yisan is strong, but so slow. Unfortunately. Also the three mana is quite the sink.
About Signal the clans (I'm becoming an old bore I'm afraid): it is just another tutor. I agree that it only fetches cratures, but that is all I need it to do. As you said it yourself, mana for creatures is not a problem with food chain in play. The kill-condition becomes everything. So I opted to go for this specific tutor, it might be a second-rate tutor but the chance of someone countering it is slight to almost none as nobody seems to check the potential that it could bring to the table. 2-mana kill con fetch end of turn.
How is Divining witch working for you? I don't have experience with the card and removing the top 6 looks "fragile".
Also: why wouldn't you switch the Priest for the Archdruid? Her lord ability makes her well worth the 1 extra mana, but than again I have not played with your list, so I don't know how tight the mana is..
I would never cash in that Gaea's Cradle, but it is one of the most redundant cards in the deck. So I understand your concern. I've actually added the pain-lands to my deck last night.
And Serum Powder: Don't know what you would cut for it. I always try to have a tutor in hand to go off at any given moment, as since you run 17 of them, I don't think you'll need it that much, in theory.
I'll continue crafting my Prossh-control list. Too bad the elves proved to be nothing.
I think you missed the entire point about why I'm not playing Signal the Clans. You're never supposed to pay mana for your win conditions in this deck, because this deck pays for its win conditions with infinite mana from Food Chain. Why would you run it over just another win condition? It can't even be used to fetch edge-case creatures, so it's an auto-cut in my book. The only time it might be useful outside of fetching a win condition is doing a split with Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix, and Wood Elves for a huge mana boost. But still not worth it to me. I'd play Flamekin Harbinger first.
And again, if people don't see the value of Divining Witch, it's cause they haven't played this incarnation of the deck yet. Anything that can be a creature, SHOULD be a creature. The fact that I can play it on turn 2, activate on turn 3, then eat it to Food Chain is a HUGE difference. Every 2CMC creature you play counts as a Dark Ritual towards casting Prossh. That is the defining point of this deck.
Priest of Titania for Elvish Archdruid? Not a chance in hell. I'm already skeptical running 2CMC elves in a combo deck that is trying to go off ASAP. A lord effect literally does nothing for this deck of less than 20 elves and definitely never using the combat step outside of infinite damage.
Gaea's Cradle has been mediocre and awkward. As I began shaving lands from the deck, I would open hands with no green source and a Cradle. It's also frustrating to know that I'll probably only ever get a single green mana out of it for the majority of the time. As I've stated, it's not good when it's the first land played, and you need to have a 1-drop to make it effective by turn 2. In a deck that wants to win by the third or fourth turn, I don't think it's providing the oomph it's meant to be providing - not with so many dependancies, not in a deck with only 9 1-drops.
Serum Powder, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose are all cards I've been looking at, but the Powder looks the most promising. Opening hands are crucial for this deck - why not increase your odds of finding a good one? What if you don't open with a tutor, even after you've paris'd away several cards? I definitely see its value.
Lastly, Prossh control and Prossh elves are both real things. Mid-range combo Prossh is also very good. But none of them can match the speed of this deck, which is virtually Hermit Druid / Storm speed now. I've played almost every version to some extent, and I still think this is by far the most competitive.
No need to fuzz mate. I am skeptical of every card included, because my angle is different and my meta-bias. Sounds like you are somewhat frustrated.
I think we missed points all together. If I have Prossh out and Food Chain, but none of the Win Conditions (Goblin Bushwhacker, Blood Artist, Hissing Iguanar, Falkenrath Noble and so on) you want tutors to find them, not? Signal the clans is such a tutor at instant speed. If you have them in your hand, no problem at all. Or are you going to cast your other tutors for free (except summoning pact of course).
Diving witch, just cut wood elves in my deck and goldfished a bit as I never have seen that card being played. It's good! Alas that one time where the card I was looking for was in the first 2 already. That was... hard.
As I said... Gaea's cradle is one of the more redundant cards in the deck.. You just summed up the reasons why.
You have 7% chance of drawing the Serum Powder. That's not too shabby, so I'd say go for it.
Did you get the chance to test out this setup of the deck allready?
Sorry if I came off frustrated, it's just that several of the same inquiries have been voiced over the course of the thread that keep asking the same thing. Apologies.
So again, with the Signal the Clans issue - there are already 12 kill conditions / ways to fetch them in the deck without paying a single mana. If I felt that the list needed more, I would start going down the list of other creature kill conditions before even considering running signal. These include: Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and if I got desperate, Ogre Battledriver, Soul of the Harvest, and Primordial Sage. Even Flamekin Harbinger would be better, because it's at least a creature that can be fed to Food Chain. The whole point of running so many win conditions, even though they're completely redundant, is so that you have a high chance of having an opening hand with one, or they can be used to feed to Food Chain in the case of showing up in multiples.
As for Divining Witch, it's one of the risks of playing with this deck. The only reason it can be up to par with the other control decks is because we get to play with all of the forbidden tutors: Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. At one point I was even considering playing Spoils of the Vault lol.
As for Gaea's Cradle, I guess I misunderstood about what you meant by "redundant". There's nothing that's redundant with Cradle - it is the only card in the deck that produces its effect.
And yes, I've tested this setup. I've been playing the same deck for quite a while now. Little modifications here and there are just about all I can do to it unless someone has revolutionary tech that I am unaware of, or the printing of new cards. It's actually the biggest reason why I post here, so that people can show up with gems that I hadn't found or thought of.
Thanks for participating. As I've said before, any and all comments are welcome.
Hello, I play midrange Prossh but your build looks like a lot more fun. I plan on building yours in a few weeks. Have there been any updates to the deck since your last post?
Hey all, happy new year! I haven't been active on this thread for a while (been playing Hearthstone over the break). I'll be happy to keep it going and answer any questions people have.
Hello, I play midrange Prossh but your build looks like a lot more fun. I plan on building yours in a few weeks. Have there been any updates to the deck since your last post?
There are variations you can take the deck in, based on your metagame. You can slow the deck down or speed it up by adjusting the numbers between acceleration and protection. Mind giving me a rundown of what you expect to face?
Turn 1 the Sharuum player goes Swamp, Mana Crypt, Bitter Ordeal targets you. Exile Food Chain. What's plan b
Short answer: there is no Plan B.
Long answer:
If you read the rest of this thread, or even the opening post, this deck is a glass cannon. If a Sharuum player does that to me, chances are he's going to get taken out by the next player in the group for wasting his turn, simple as that. I can't remember the last time anyone has used a Jester's Cap effect on me, let alone in a deck. There's this weird myth about Extract effects ruining decks - nobody plays them because they're greedy and don't want to give up slots for it. What good is 2-3 Jester's Cap effects, that don't further your gameplan, and dilute your own strategy? If people ARE running Jester's Cap effects, that's a sign that your metagame has become too degenerate, and said person needs to play from behind to even try and catch up. And I'm going to stop myself right here from going on an even longer rant, cause posts like this contribute nothing to the conversation, especially when it's already been addressed.
I haven't played with 2 of these guys before, so they aren't fully aware of what the deck was capable of.
Game 1: I keep a turn 3 winner with protection. Azami tries to Negate my Food Chain, I REB and go off.
Game 2: I manage a turn 2 winner via turn 1 Mana Crypt into Sylvan Library. I draw all 3 cards and hit Lotus Petal, Burning Tree Emissary, and Fierce Empath. Land, Petal, shotgun Food Chain (no responses), play + eat Emissary (RGGGG mana), Fierce Empath (RG) for Chancellor, eat Empath (RGBBBB), cast Prossh, go infinite, Chancellor for the win.
Game 3: I keep a slower hand with Bob. 5C Omni has a turn 3 Flash-Rector with Misdirection backup.
Game 4: I have another turn 3 winner with protection. Damia attempts to Drain my Food Chain, I Guttural Response, and Azami Swan Songs it. Can't win em all. Damia ramps hard and goes into infinite turns.
Game 5: Pretty long game. I keep a hand with tons of ramp and draw, but can't find a tutor for the life of me. Omni tries to Show and Tell; the blue decks get into a few counter wars. I draw into Ad Nauseam and attempt to cast it EOT. It gets countered. I untap and draw Food Chain raw and go off.
---
Pretty happy with the deck in its current incarnation. I definitely have speed on my side. Granted, these guys will know how to play against me next time. Few things of note:
I think this deck is nearing the best it can be. The only way to make it better would be adding defensive options that don't give up speed. Anything that is a creature is a plus, since they can still be used as +1 mana during the Food Chaining phase. Small sample size aside, my opening hands have been astoundingly consistent. I would dare argue that this deck can definitely compete with the big boys.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Defense Grid looks to be the best out of the ones you mentioned if only because it's the cheapest. Dosan is probably a close second because it can be NOM NOMed.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Nope, I abandoned the elf version. Too durdley. It sucks cause I actually have a ton of foil elves from an even older version of this deck. Maybe I'll make Ezuri or something for fun.
I'm going to post my updated list and revise the first page to be up to date. Kind of want to primer status this, but interest is really low overall so probably not. Would love if more people wanted to make cutthroat decks haha.
Still highly considering adding the complete defense suite (Claim, Grid, City, Dosan). I think it might be what the deck needs to perform at the higher levels consistently.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gamble
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Eternal Witness
//Answers & Protection
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Akki Rockspeaker
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Priest of Gix
1 Priest of Urabrask
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Orcish Lumberjack
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Crystal Vein
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Forest
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
+1
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8169&d=247057&f=EDH
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
First stab at converting this list to multiplayer:
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Busted Green Cards
1 Earthcraft
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Food Chain
1 Birthing Pod
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Natural Order
//Win Conditions
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Denial
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Contamination
//Utility Creatures
1 Arbor Elf
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Voyaging Satyr
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Dark Confidant
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Fierce Empath
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Anger
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Priest of Titania
1 Devoted Druid
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Wild Growth
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
//Walkers
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan Vol
//Removal
1 Fire Covenant
//Tutors
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Grim Tutor
//Card Quality
1 Skullclamp
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Underworld Connections
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Swamp
One thing I noticed is the lack of infinites. In 1v1, it's much easier just to ramp into Prossh and ride the token value train to victory. In multiplayer, that's a bit harder. Because of the amount of ramp in this deck, I would highly consider playing Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker and Zealous Conscripts. I think they can be played over weaker cards like Xenagos, God of Revels and Sarkhan Vol. Both seem much stronger for 1v1 beatdown strategies. The one thing that is kind of interesting is using the lock cards, like Contamination to devastate the multi-color decks and quickly punish the mono-colored decks. That strategy would actually work in my 3C+ metagame. But I might as well just take that lock and use the ramp to abuse Necropotence or a 1-shot card like Tooth and Nail. Opinions?
What this list offers is a whole new level of synergies. Untap creatures can be used with cards like Fauna Shaman and Yisan, The Wanderer Bard to setup some disgusting chain of ramp and value. The higher density of threats makes this deck look like a blast to play. Just look at the busted green card section! If anything, it will be less speedy / consistent than my original build, but will be a lot more interesting to play.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Yea I'll have to revise this list a little. I think I'm just going to focus on Food Chain, Kiki-Conscripts, and Craterhoof Behemoth backup plan. Those are the most compact win conditions without heading into Necrotic Ooze land.
You know what? I realized I never posted any pictures of this deck. It's nearly all foil. I had to sell my foil fetches last year to pay for my Modern Jund deck, but the deck is still completely in tact and I play it whenever I can. Here's a picture of the more expensive cards in the deck, along with a custom altered Prossh (gold foiling):
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
HAHA. Yea English seal is a bit much. I bought the Imperial several years ago when I just needed a copy of the card. I suppose one day (many days later), I will ABU out my lands and get an English seal.
EDIT:
Here's a revised list with Tooth and Nail. Cleaned up some of the creatures. It's not really elf ball, just elf ramp with a bunch of creature-based synergies. There's some cute stuff in here like Voyaging Satyr that works well with Wild Growth (underplayed ramp card) and Underworld Connections. Not sure if replacing those with more powerful multiplayer cards would be beneficial.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Busted Green Cards
1 Earthcraft
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Food Chain
1 Birthing Pod
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Natural Order
1 Tooth and Nail
//Win Conditions
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Denial
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Contamination
//Utility Creatures
1 Arbor Elf
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Voyaging Satyr
1 Dark Confidant
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Fierce Empath
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Anger
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Priest of Titania
1 Devoted Druid
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Wild Growth
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
//Walkers
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
//Removal
1 Fire Covenant
//Tutors
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Grim Tutor
//Card Quality
1 Skullclamp
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Underworld Connections
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Thanks for chiming in. Would love new brains on this build.
Signal the Clans would've been better in my old build, cause I could grab three completely redundant finishers. In this case, there are completely separate finishers for different situations. The cool part about this deck is that it doesn't waste slots, meaning you can easily just play strong cards like Birthing Pod for value, utility, or just to trade a 3-drop for Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Gutteral Response and friends used to be in my old deck. Not entirely sure what my defense suite with this deck would look like. Since there are so many more avenues to victory, I'm actually not as concerned with winning ASAP while trying to barrel through mounds of hate.
Fauna Shaman is a creature tutor that is also a creature. In a combo-centric build, this is invaluable, especially when your primary win condition is still Food Chain.
I have this weird feeling that my old decklist is still far more optimized. This elf-ish list will need to undergo some extreme scrutiny over the course of the week before I'll reach a happy point with it.
As for a closeup of the alter, I had Yawg07 (Gus Schade) paint it. It's gorgeous
EDIT:
Woah those images came out huge. Anyone know how to manually control the size?
Anyways, I went through my old list. I thought I'd put my finishing touches on it before focusing on the elf version. In light of the deck being too much of a glass cannon, I've opted to remove all of the higher-risk cards in favor of more defense. I mean cards like Orcish Lumberjack exchanged for Devoted Druid. Both respectably powerful, but one thing this deck hates doing is sacrificing cards for speed.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Protection
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Defense Grid
1 Vexing Shusher
1 City of Solitude
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Akki Rockspeaker
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Priest of Gix
1 Priest of Urabrask
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Crystal Vein
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Next I will be continuing to work on the elf version because it looks to have more potential as the game grows. The main things I'm looking to abuse are elves for ramp; using the same elves to feed into the Food Chain combo; using elf ramp to play devastating green-based engines, such as Birthing Pod; increase the overall threat density of the deck by including lock cards that elves can bypass, such as Blood Moon. Primary combos in the deck will still be Kiki-Jiki and Food Chain. I think this is finally the deck that will be the culmination of all of my experience playing Prossh - and, awesome enough, it borrows a little bit from each strategy I've dipped in so far.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Regarding Elves...
No matter what you try, EDH elfball will never play like Elves! in Legacy. I know because I played both Legacy and Extended elves when they were available. You can't reach that kind of density and consistency, going absolutely nuts with Nettle Sentinels and Heritage Druid, while drawing out your entire deck. The way elves function in EDH is through 1 to 2 card infinite combo. In the case of Prossh, and the Prossh elfball lists that placed, the elves are merely used for their ramp and toolbox abilities. Because Prossh is already a huge combo enabler (and Food Chain consumes elves), the necessity to reach a super density of elves and to go infinite with Staff of Domination or Umbral Mantle are not necessary.
After closer examination of the 1v1 lists, I have concluded that they cannot be easily ported to multiplayer. The deck succeeds because it has many small value engines and big explosive plays that involve one-shotting your opponent with Craterhoof Behemoth. Obviously this is not the case against three opponents with 40 health each, making bombs like Pattern of Rebirth teeter on the edge of playability. Even the awesome idea of Yisan, The Wanderer Bard, probably won't make the cut. Why? Because he's too slow. Yes, there are chains you can pull off, like:
Yisan -> Wirewood Symbiote -> untap Yisan -> Elvish Visionary
Sure this is a GREAT value engine. Note that it takes a turn, and costs a total of 9 mana to pull off. This is competitive multiplayer. You should be ending the game with 9 mana. In 1v1, you'll have a lot more time and resources to make this an actual threat, but I can't see this actually being viable in multiplayer. Not even remotely.
Because we are optimizing for multiplayer, we inherently have to optimize for busted combos that kill the table in a single turn. For Jund and Prossh, these combos are explicitly tied to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, and Food Chain. I'm not a fan of playing Necrotic Ooze because it's too much a departure from its roots. You need to start playing graveyard based enablers like Buried Alive and include several dead slots in your mainboard just to accommodate all of the moving parts. Also this deck already exists and has been optimized - it's called Hermit Druid. Trying to create a deck anywhere near this ballpark means you're just going to be completely inferior to this established, powerful archetype.
Food Chain is Prossh's marquee card, no doubt about it. I consider it a no-brainer, and it should definitely be the primary focus of the deck. Everything else already synergizes so well with with. The only point of contention is that you need a lot of creatures on the board / in hand to fuel into Food Chain and then cast Prossh. In my original FCP, this wasn't a problem, but recovery while using the elf version might be since you need to snackrifice a portion of. Because the deck is no longer lazer focused, you lose a lot of moving parts and the power of the combo, its speed, is lost in the shuffle. However, by utilize elves instead of cards that have the sole role of feeding (ie Akki Rockspeaker), you can retain more of your mana in case the combo fails.
The last place to turn is Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. There are multiple avenues that lead to his infinites, but I think the three that I am eyeballing are Tooth and Nail, Birthing Pod, and Defense of the Heart. The last one isn't a true avenue - it's more like an aggro deterrent. Still amazing for that exact reason though. Survival of the Fittest is also an engine I want to put in the deck, and we can include another combo within that for a small price: Anger, Devoted Druid, and Necrotic Ooze. I realize the irony of this statement, so I'll leave it open for discussion.
Finally, we turn to the main reason why Elf Chain Prossh (ECP) may be stronger than Food Chain Prossh (FCP). FCP's issue is threat density. Everything funnels into one single combo, and if that fails, the deck has very poor ways of recovering. ECP has the ability to push threat after threat, buying virtual time while indirectly increasing power and resiliency. Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Contamination - they're all amazing soft locks. The concern with Contamination's cost is trivial - YOU'RE PLAYING PROSSH. It also functions as a sac outlet for when you need to cast Prossh again. It's also why this deck runs cards like Wild Growth to help bypass the drawbacks. I would even go as far as playing Null Rod and Choke if your metagame is skewed like mine is.
Again, I'm going to have to slowly comb through the list and figure out what exactly is worth playing and what isn't. 1v1 is VERY different from multiplayer, and most of the cute engines just won't cut it. I'm pretty sure I'll have something to look at this weekend. If all else fails, I'll continue playing my old FCP list.
---
Big Edit:
So I was tinkering with my current list. While it is explosive, I'm trying to trade reckless explosiveness for a bit more stability. What I've come up with is cutting the worst creatures in each category and replacing them with more consistent / less dead cards. A good example is Akki Rockspeaker. He's great when attempting to go off, but is otherwise a dead card in hand while waiting for Food Chain. Sure he can act as a boost during your feed ramp phase, but I'd rather create impact. Thus, I replaced him with Wood Elves. The same could be said for the rest of these changes:
Akki Rockspeaker -> Wood Elves
Dosan the Falling Leaf -> Fauna Shaman
City of Solitude -> Xantid Swarm
Priest of Urabrask -> Survival of the Fittest
Survival always felt like it should've been in this deck. I was even considering adding Squee, Goblin Nabob as yet another way to create some sort of extremely high-threat, value engine.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Protection
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Defense Grid
1 Vexing Shusher
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Wood Elves
1 Priest of Gix
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Yea I would definitely invest in the tutors. I've held onto mine for quite a few years, and even though they were "expensive" back then (like $100 for Grim Tutor and $200 for JP Imperial Seal), they were well worth the money spent. The appreciation has been pretty disgusting as well, especially for all of the random foil staples I've collected.
As for multiple avenues of victory, this deck is built for speed, and in the most recent version, some semblance of resilience. I'm pretty close to putting this list down as I brew a more elf-centric build that utilizes the green powerhouse cards I keep talking about. Something involving Birthing Pod, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, and Blood Moon effects to increase threat density and create multiple angles of attack.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Hey so it looks like you were playing elf version?
After some more contemplation, research, and sampling a few dozen hands, I have concluded that a full-on elf ball version of the deck just isn't viable in multiplayer. Sure, you could play the list in a less cutthroat environment. It's actually quite good there, with tons of value plays and cool things you can do over the course of a 10+ turn game. In my primary playgroup, however, decks tend to shoot for the stars starting around turn 4. Because this deck is aggressive by nature, it's hard to try and insert control-type elements into the list without gumming up the strategy. Cards like Contaminaton or Blood Moon are great, but the deck itself doesn't do anything even if you have a soft lock in place. In 1v1, a soft lock is ALL you need because combat damage via Prossh is still highly relevant. All of the 1v1 deck's plays revolve around value, synergy, and Craterhoof Behemoth. While it's admirable, FCP has no room for these cards.
The issue is solely in the fact that you must deal 120 damage across three different opponents. In 1v1, this is not a problem with Prossh. You can get there naturally with your tokens holding the fort, and with cards like Xenagos, God of Revels. In multiplayer, you must rely on combo, so that means you're either utilizing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Necrotic Ooze, or Food Chain. In this deck, Food Chain is the only real answer, because every other strategy asks for a wildly different set of supporting cards.
I stand by my original list for now. I don't think there's another avenue that Prossh can take that will make the deck comparable to the best in the format. Soft lock cards aren't even impossible to play around. A turn 2 Blood Moon can be circumvented by most Esper decks thanks to the sheer number of artifact accelerants they run. The speed issue is very real - the only question is how much speed can you give up in favor of resilience.
After speaking with Shady Wolf, another player who has piloted this list, I've decided a few rules for this deck. Speed is absolutely crucial, yes, but predictability has become a problem. One of the main issues with this deck is how suicidal it is when it comes to throwing away cards for speed. In light of this, I've opted out from perceived staples such as Mox Diamond because, being in non-blue, I really can't afford to throw away cards. Every single card is important. Even a card like Simian Spirit Guide is -1 card for +1 mana. Not worth it. The cards I will keep are the ones that create a large enough advantage to be worth my time. Cards like Dark Ritual and Orcish Lumberjack can be argued to be 1 card for X mana, but the mana is so much more significant for the card spent. Worth it. In Force of Ill's example above, Signal the Clans is a fine card, but why play Signal over another finisher? Finisher in this deck are, in 99% of all scenarios, completely free thanks to Food Chain. Why spend 2 mana? The only creature tutor I would play in this deck is Eladamri's Call since I can be specific about what I want. Unfortunately we're not in that cut of the color pie.
This revelation also led me to just completely cut Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. You're essentially giving up 2 cards and a lot of mana for 1 card. Including Squee, Goblin Nabob isn't going to help either because the amount of time it takes to get the engine going. The only argument you could make for Survival of the Fittest would be to include Basking Rootwalla and Vengevine. At that point, Survival does become quite good, since it is a 1 stop shop for both ramp and tutor chains into your finisher. But even this is realistically too mana intensive to be good, and takes up a lot of slots in the deck for one card. Counting the mana, it'd cost GGGGR4, or 9 mana, all in the same turn to go off. Not worth it. Instead of Survival, I opted just to include another finisher.
Speaking of finishers, I was going to stick this portion in the primer, but I'd like to have everyone's opinions as well. I prefer finishers that cost 5 or less because in the even that I need more creatures to feed chain into Prossh, redundant cards could be turned into mana ramp. However, I think I've exhausted all creature-based possibilities that aren't vulnerable to spot removal. At our 6 drop slot we have Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and Deathbringer Thoctar. I chose the thoctar because it can be used to ping creatures. The demon offers an alternate win, but I don't think it's necessary.
Here's the list as it stands now:
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
1 Deathbringer Thoctar
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Yawgmoth's Will
//Protection
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Defense Grid
1 Vexing Shusher
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Wood Elves
1 Priest of Gix
//Ramp
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
This is likely further back, but your thread is impressively long, it seems like if Chord of Calling was once cut, it should have a renewed place now, as it can search out the Goblin Bushwhacker and Chancellor of the Forge, as well as Thoctar or Rage Thrower. The three green may be difficult, but not impossible with the number of elves being run and does allow some resilience potentially.
Since your last build, I've been attempting to mediate between your pure speed and some combos, although I recognise you know what you're doing here one day when I have had more practice I may be able to better comment.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
For example, Simian Spirit Guide is worthwhile when I play, since it fuels so well the likes of Guttural Response and Pyroblast. In fact, the general utility as one-shot ramp has been useful for me too.
This play style, however, is most certainly not without its risks, but the risks I run seem somewhat insubstantial where I play.
That's several lines of my saying the same thing. Heh.
All this said, I think that there is a strong argument that reducing these cards is not a bad idea. I am not too surprised that the elf-based deck did not work out too well, sadly. Was it the board wipes that caused the biggest problem?
I'm sticking with Extractor Demon simply because I like the card. Perhaps a sacrifice in efficiency for preference, but that's just me.
Has Sylvan Ranger been a boon for you? I know that people like it and Gatecreeper Vine for the likes of Prossh and Animar, but they both feel like such dead cards whenever I've drawn them, even with Food Chain.
Chord of Calling was cut because the green mana is just unable to be produced. It's too expensive for what it does, and I would rather just run another win condition in place of it.
And I still value your (and everyone else's) contributions to this thread, regardless of experience. It makes me ponder my choices; deckbuilding in EDH is often distorted by the fractal lens of subjective experiences. Having more angles to put the pieces together is invaluable.
Thanks for stopping by. As one of the few people that have actually played the deck, your participation makes me warm and fuzzy inside rofl.
I think it's just that I've played enough solitaired games to know that I'd rather keep cards than shed them for slight acceleration, because I often want to keep the cards I'm tossing away. I also tried a version of the deck like yours, where I ran every mana accelerant possible. In the end, it was still very important to have a dork in play to start your feed chain a lot easier. That's why I have cards like Quirion Sentinel and Wood Elves. The only reason I'm not playing Priest of Urabrask, Akki Rockspeaker, and Gatecreeper Vine anymore is because they produce red mana (the most useless color in this deck overall), and they're not elves (to help Priest of Titania). But running at 32 lands, Sylvan Ranger is definitely worth her weight in gold.
The elves issue is that it requires too much of a tribal investment to get anything worthwhile going. Then all the non-1-cmc elves are just worse than playing other ramp, like signets or Nature's Lore. The only two that made it were Devoted Druid and Priest of Titania, as well as some utility elves. It's a side dish, not the main course.
Overall I will agree that this deck is criminally underplayed for how fast and consistent it is. Thanks for helping rep it
EDIT:
OH YES! Before I forget - I'm thinking of cashing in Gaea's Cradle for Karplusan Forest or some other land because we're not maximizing it's potential with less than 10 1-drops and 32 lands. I can sometimes get it to 3 tops, but most of the time it's 1 and it really screws up my mulligans.
ON THAT NOTE, what do people think of Serum Powder?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I think you missed the entire point about why I'm not playing Signal the Clans. You're never supposed to pay mana for your win conditions in this deck, because this deck pays for its win conditions with infinite mana from Food Chain. Why would you run it over just another win condition? It can't even be used to fetch edge-case creatures, so it's an auto-cut in my book. The only time it might be useful outside of fetching a win condition is doing a split with Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix, and Wood Elves for a huge mana boost. But still not worth it to me. I'd play Flamekin Harbinger first.
And again, if people don't see the value of Divining Witch, it's cause they haven't played this incarnation of the deck yet. Anything that can be a creature, SHOULD be a creature. The fact that I can play it on turn 2, activate on turn 3, then eat it to Food Chain is a HUGE difference. Every 2CMC creature you play counts as a Dark Ritual towards casting Prossh. That is the defining point of this deck.
Priest of Titania for Elvish Archdruid? Not a chance in hell. I'm already skeptical running 2CMC elves in a combo deck that is trying to go off ASAP. A lord effect literally does nothing for this deck of less than 20 elves and definitely never using the combat step outside of infinite damage.
Gaea's Cradle has been mediocre and awkward. As I began shaving lands from the deck, I would open hands with no green source and a Cradle. It's also frustrating to know that I'll probably only ever get a single green mana out of it for the majority of the time. As I've stated, it's not good when it's the first land played, and you need to have a 1-drop to make it effective by turn 2. In a deck that wants to win by the third or fourth turn, I don't think it's providing the oomph it's meant to be providing - not with so many dependancies, not in a deck with only 9 1-drops.
Serum Powder, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose are all cards I've been looking at, but the Powder looks the most promising. Opening hands are crucial for this deck - why not increase your odds of finding a good one? What if you don't open with a tutor, even after you've paris'd away several cards? I definitely see its value.
Lastly, Prossh control and Prossh elves are both real things. Mid-range combo Prossh is also very good. But none of them can match the speed of this deck, which is virtually Hermit Druid / Storm speed now. I've played almost every version to some extent, and I still think this is by far the most competitive.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Sorry if I came off frustrated, it's just that several of the same inquiries have been voiced over the course of the thread that keep asking the same thing. Apologies.
So again, with the Signal the Clans issue - there are already 12 kill conditions / ways to fetch them in the deck without paying a single mana. If I felt that the list needed more, I would start going down the list of other creature kill conditions before even considering running signal. These include: Rage Thrower, Extractor Demon, and if I got desperate, Ogre Battledriver, Soul of the Harvest, and Primordial Sage. Even Flamekin Harbinger would be better, because it's at least a creature that can be fed to Food Chain. The whole point of running so many win conditions, even though they're completely redundant, is so that you have a high chance of having an opening hand with one, or they can be used to feed to Food Chain in the case of showing up in multiples.
As for Divining Witch, it's one of the risks of playing with this deck. The only reason it can be up to par with the other control decks is because we get to play with all of the forbidden tutors: Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. At one point I was even considering playing Spoils of the Vault lol.
As for Gaea's Cradle, I guess I misunderstood about what you meant by "redundant". There's nothing that's redundant with Cradle - it is the only card in the deck that produces its effect.
And yes, I've tested this setup. I've been playing the same deck for quite a while now. Little modifications here and there are just about all I can do to it unless someone has revolutionary tech that I am unaware of, or the printing of new cards. It's actually the biggest reason why I post here, so that people can show up with gems that I hadn't found or thought of.
Thanks for participating. As I've said before, any and all comments are welcome.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Relaxed EDH: BROlivia VampiresRB
#FreeBraids
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
There are variations you can take the deck in, based on your metagame. You can slow the deck down or speed it up by adjusting the numbers between acceleration and protection. Mind giving me a rundown of what you expect to face?
Short answer: there is no Plan B.
Long answer:
If you read the rest of this thread, or even the opening post, this deck is a glass cannon. If a Sharuum player does that to me, chances are he's going to get taken out by the next player in the group for wasting his turn, simple as that. I can't remember the last time anyone has used a Jester's Cap effect on me, let alone in a deck. There's this weird myth about Extract effects ruining decks - nobody plays them because they're greedy and don't want to give up slots for it. What good is 2-3 Jester's Cap effects, that don't further your gameplan, and dilute your own strategy? If people ARE running Jester's Cap effects, that's a sign that your metagame has become too degenerate, and said person needs to play from behind to even try and catch up. And I'm going to stop myself right here from going on an even longer rant, cause posts like this contribute nothing to the conversation, especially when it's already been addressed.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain