Gonna bump your list. It's highly competitive which I very much like. Near perfect actually for what it's trying to do. I suspect that my list will start looking more and more like yours.
Here's my Prossh list. It's getting there but is still much slower than yours. I don't focus on Food Chain as my sole win condition but go with alternate token producers and Craterhoof Behemoth as backup. I'd appreciate you taking a look at it if you have a moment.
I'm curious. What's your answer to cards like Bitter Ordeal, Jester's Cap, and Extract? Also, an exiling counterspell like Mindbreak Trap, or any removal/counter followed by graveyard hate has the same effect. Do you just concede? Without it, you are basically forced to rely only on Prossh to generate enough tokens to win - and that's much much too slow.
I guess losing Prossh to a tuck is less likely to be a problem since you have so many tutors (nearly half your deck) but Avenger of Zendikar is arguably the best alternate way to generate tokens in Jund. Obviously, tokens fuel our win conditions. If we lose that fuel we are dead in the water.
The other thing that worries me about your list is it's almost total lack of removal. (Chaos Warp, Beast Within, Toxic Deluge, and the like) or for that matter, any kind of lategame resiliency. If you are facing equally competitive decks, how do you respond to your opponent's early threats? My Niv-Mizzet primer deck can win on turn 1 and 2 and can lay down threats that if not answered will win me the game as well. You are banking an the resources race, which I can see that you will win more often than not but still... it's win early or die for you isn't it?
After reading through the thread more thoroughly I see that you more or less already answered my above concerns. I'll concede that I'm very much a newb when it comes to Jund colors and especially Prossh but the promise of completely obliterating blue players without playing blue appeals to me. What I'm lacking in experience, I attempt to make up for in research and theorycrafting
I wanted to nod to your FCP v2 list and say that it's more to my liking. While you lose the probability of that turn 3-4 win in a vacuum, you gain lategame resiliency. And from my experience, multiplayer is anything BUT a vacuum, especially in more competitive circles. It's very likely that someone is going to stop your early Food Chain win one way or another and you'll be left behind. Return to Dust, Mindbreak Trap, or Jester's Cap will seal your fate. I just don't like the idea of someone's one card crippling my deck.
In summary I think that your FCP v1 list is much more suited to 1v1 play than multiplayer, and I would prefer it there, while the FCP v2 approach will have a more solid presence in multiplayer.
Personally, there's not too much that's scarier to me than a turn 3-4 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (I've just lost badly to it before). You can even get a turn 1 or 2 fatty using Faithless Looting and Reanimate. Vorinclex is included in my list because part of my strategy is to sac and recast Prossh as many times as possible. I actually want Prossh to die so I can get more tokens the next round to fuel my sac outlets. You might be saying, "Well Vorinclex dies to removal." but if we are playing the card advantage game, then that's expected to happen, and if it doesn't well... then you probably just won.
If you go "lategame route" you are going to want to try to overwhelm your opponents with card advantage as quickly as possible since that will ensure you a win very reliably (it won't really matter if your stuff gets removed because you can just recast two more threats). Besides what you already have Greater Good and Fecundity both serve this function pretty well. Disciple of Bolas is playable here too (Prossh can eat his kobalds and then be sacced for massive draw). Decree of Pain can also be ramped to for some pretty insane draw while at the same time resetting the board.
Another idea is to include some permanent sac engines that allow you to control the board state. Shivan Harvest and Attrition are what I use. Between the two of them and enough fuel, they shut down most decks.
Removal is of course another necessity if we are going the lategame route, and it's going to be meta dependent. This is what I chose to use:
Bitter Ordeal is ironically something that should be considered here, not as a win condition but preemptive hate. Exiling all the control player's removal or control cards for example hurts, or crippling another combo deck.
Heartwood Storyteller might be viable here idk. It can totally hose most blue decks but can also backfire since we have a lot of noncreature spells as well.
Dosan, the Falling Leaf and Vexing Shusher both look good to me since they are creatures and have a permanent presence. They can fuel Food Chain or our other sac outlets (or if you are using Craterhoof, they can beat face).
Are you worried at all about Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff? They shut down your finishers (Goblin Bushwacker, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge). The Gryff can also be played at instant speed after you've cast prossh a billion times, which leaves you vulnerable to Food Chain destruction (every opponent will get a turn to kill it). Just seems really risky - why not cut one of the etb finishers (chancellor probably) and put Blood Artist or something back in?
It's not a creature but, given the likelihood of counter magic, you may wan't consider bitter ordeal as a backup plan (make inf dudes and sac to prossh). Gravestorm gets around most counter magic.
Sorry for the delayed response. I haven't been playing much MTG lately, but Khans has me interested in starting back up again. I haven't touched this deck in a while, but I'd definitely return to it (or a version of it). I'll try to address some concerns.
@Rowan
This deck is fairly glass-cannon. I've built in enough protection that I can perhaps fight through 1 answer on average, but anything more than that and I've probably lost. Because it can go off turn ~3-4 consistently (with protection most of the time), I've opted for pure speed rather than trying to play some long game that the deck isn't designed for. In fact, if you're going long game, I'd probably take the stax route. The irony is that this is a tri-color deck and going stax really hurts the mana when your general costs 6. There's a conflict of interest and when I played that variant of the deck, it just didn't work for me.
Regarding Jester's Cap effects - in all honesty, no one plays them. Even in my old meta which was rampant with combo, nobody is going to spend a turn to try and neuter one player when everyone has explosive turns or insta-gib combos up their sleeves. Countermagic and hoser cards are much cheaper and more common plays. If I was in a metagame with a bunch of Jester's Cap effects, I'd probably change the deck, but as is, you can race it or just sit one game out if someone really went out of their way to cap you over the next combo player.
Regarding other finishers - I think the more you try to add in other strategies, be it graveyard, token buffing, or whatever else Prossh can be decent at, you begin to water down the core of the deck. The reason this list works is cause of redundancy and consistency. You try and fight opposition with cheap answers instead of playing in fear of what they have. No, this deck is not a combo deck like Arcum or Sharuum. It doesn't carry any spectacular power plays or ways to lock up the board. It wants to be an aggressor while having answers for their answers, much like Hermit Druid or Storm.
If you actually sit down and play this deck, like actually sit down and try this exact list - you will NOT want to draw anything other than your most compact, direct kill plan. You will be in the fastest tier of combo decks that this format has to offer. I used to play a version with all sorts of win conditions and backup plans - what you end up with is a hand full of everything and nothing. It's frustrating and you'll see it. If you already play in a metagame where this type of deck is a consideration, by the time you assemble a backup plan, the game will already be over by the guy who took infinite turns, or the other guy who drew his deck, etc. If the game isn't over or locked up, that means this deck is, ironically, too powerful for the meta, and everyone needs to focus fire you all in the first few turns in order to knock you out.
I also can't stress how powerful Ad Nauseum is in this deck. It's slowly becoming plan A, though I don't want to admit it.
Regarding FCP v2 - I think this is where things start get interesting. I took a break from MTG right as I began messing around with this list. I think it has great potential, as it is able to attack the EDH metagame from an angle that isn't very popular. Who plays a crazy consistent combo deck with all of this anti-blue, anti-artifact hate? It makes sense though, seeing as the majority of popular, powerful decks are comprised of exactly that.
I'll say it again, the more I play the list, less I care for "cute" cards that don't funnel me directly towards my primary goal. It's the sad curse of trying to optimize a list in a competitive environment. I love cards like Natural Order and all of the cool things I can do with it - it just has no home here .
@batdown
The reason I chose these win conditions is because they are all hyper-resilient to spot removal (especially of the creature variety). I could potentially see adding one more win condition, but I'd have to do some research to see which ones have the most synergy with my creature-based tutors (that makes my win conditions both variable and more dense). Another thing to note is that you can always shoot for plays that involve drawing mass cards to try and circumvent the issue. More and more, a fat, well-timed Ad Nauseum becomes equal in power to just tutoring for a combo, especially if you have the ramp to support it. If you draw 20+ cards, losing will be fairly difficult.
Spot removal on FC actual isn't as common, or maybe I just have a decent sense at sniffing out the people who have been palming answers. Bitter Ordeal is a great suggestion, but not being a creature really hinders the speed at which I can use it to go off.
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Anyways, thanks for keeping interest in this deck. I'm returning to MTG and will be tuning this list again (probably a variant with some more hosers). I'm wondering if there are any hidden gems in Theros block, Conspiracy, and M15 that I missed. Would love to hear some suggestions. The things the deck always needs are more cheap dorks that give you acceleration and/or card advantage, card filtering, and tutors!
Right off the bat I can target 4-5 slightly underwhelming cards that can all be improved by creature counterparts or hosers. That's the focus of my goal by the way: creature counterparts and hosers.
In a stroke of blind luck, I think I've managed to solve this deck's most glaring problems. A friend was showing me his GW Elf Ball deck and all of a sudden it dawned on me: why did this deck not go more elves?
The issue with the "altar" backup plan is that it's slow. Extremely slow. And extremely terrible. DO you really think after someone blows you out with a removal spell, you'll have time to tutor twice and re-cast your general? It just doesn't happen. I do realize that my list was a glass cannon, and as people grew more accustomed to it, I started to win less often. Of course people still can't beat the busted hands, but if I try to go off around turn 5+, they know to snipe my Food Chain mid-combo. That results in me being unable to re-cast Prossh again for the rest of the game. Unfortunately, none of the other Jund combos work out well for the deck.
But then the Elf Ball idea happened.
The main trigger was seeing Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage. I remember not utilizing those cards because they lose to spot removal in the Food Chain loop. Honestly, I have never lost to spot removal while in the Food Chain loop, but I gave it the same critical eye until I realized one of the main reasons why FC Prossh was so glass-cannonish: too many dead cards. Both of these 6 drops can be used as card draw engines with the elves, meaning less dead cards. Having more green creatures and green mana also allows me to play cards that were originally considered unplayable, such as: Natural Order, Chord of Calling, and Survival of the Fittest. The brutality is back.
The ultimate selling point, though, is the fact that I can include two singletons that turn elves into infinites. Staff of Domination and Umbral Mantle are two cards that go infinite with multiple creatures in the deck at the cost of very few slots. They're also completely unreliant on any part of the Food Chain combo, allowing you to kill the table with a few infinitely large creatures through Craterhoof Behemoth or Umbral Mantle.
Of course the major downside is that the deck loses its speed. The gains for the deck are healthy and grant several avenues to victory, so overall the improvement will be vast. Feedback is welcome from everyone, and especially Elf Ball players!
I too have gone elf ball to some extent. It's a pretty strong and efficient mana engine. My list could be a bit better optimized though.
Why no Oracle of Mul Daya? I'd say it's a better use of four than Argothian Elder. Oracle is a pretty common early creature tutor for me.
Skullmulcher - I think this is inferior to Disciple of Bolas. If your aim is to sac Prossh, without FC, you are going to be netting more cards, 11 instead of just 7. It's also 1 mana cheaper and a bit of life gain never hurts. Also, saccing things like Craterhoof, Avenger of Zendikar, or Chancellor of the Forge, who've outlived their usefulness will draw you more cards as well.
Soul of the Harvest, Primordial Sage I don't like either of these as draw engines for Prossh, because they don't work well with him in a vacuum. With Soul of the Harvest, you aren't taking advantage of Prossh's kobolds, because they are tokens. With both of these, you are only going to be drawing one card for Prossh. Greater Good and Fecundity are just much better IMO, even though they aren't creatures. Greater Good is probably one of the best instant speed sac outlets for Prossh there is. We DO NOT want Prossh to be tucked. Sure we can tutor him back out but that wastes a tutor.
Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle - while this is a clever way to go infinite, I don't really see how they are less clunky than the altars. If anything they are even more situational since you need enough elves to go infinite, AND an additional sac outlet for Prossh. Including Prossh, that's 7 cards that need to be in play for this to work! Umbral Mantle, Wirewood Channeler, 3 other elves, and a sac outlet. Not to mention that Channeler needs to have haste or wait a turn to work. This is really fragile. Speaking of sac outlets, I don't see any in your list, so what's the point of this combo actually? O.o Infinite mana is great and all, but if you don't actually have something to use it for...
Also it's worth saying that Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle are of questionable value outside of this combo. The altars are really good on their own since they can sac prossh and kobolds for mana advantage at instant speed.
Note on instant speed sac outlets: Instant speed sac outlets are a very powerful deterrent (or mitigation) to creature spot removal. Say I have Oracle of Mul Daya and Birthing Pod out and 1G open. Is anyone really going to Path to Exile my Oracle? If they do, I'll just sac the Oracle, and get something worse. Say Urabrask the Hidden. It also prevents tuck effects, and when you've got an ample supply of graveyard recursion, the deal just gets sweeter.
I think I'd rather have Diabolic Tutor in my hand than Sylvan Scrying. I realize that it's there for Cradle, but outside of that, it's just a bit limited.
I have to ask: How does this new build handle a board wipe? It seems to me that you'd be severely set back, especially since all of your ramp is creature based. The main reason I chose to go the reanimation route is so that I would resilient to wipes. Removal is now something that I don't fear all that much. It even plays into my strategy. Not taking advantage of graveyard interaction is handicapping this deck I believe. I don't think it takes away from synergy, I think it enhances it. Reanimate, Yawgmoth's Will, Dread Return, and Living Death are just nuts with the selective discard engines. I really like Silverglade Pathfinder.
You don't have any haste enablers. I think these go hand in hand with Craterhoof Behemoth, especially if you plan on cheating him into play. You'll also get more mileage out of your elves that have to tap. The best creature based haste enablers I think for a build like this are Anger (gets better with Buried Alive), Ogre Battledriver, and Urabrask the Hidden.
Lastly, now that you are playing a slower game, your removal suite looks too weak. Other decks are going to start being a problem for you. When you lean away from the pure combo approach it's no longer just win or lose. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that without some defense you will lose more often. What I'm maybe getting at here is that I think it has to be all or nothing. Either you go for the fast combo, or you go for the slower control. Going part-way doesn't work because you open yourself up to opponents being able to stop you. The removal becomes necessary.
I too have gone elf ball to some extent. It's a pretty strong and efficient mana engine. My list could be a bit better optimized though.
Why no Oracle of Mul Daya? I'd say it's a better use of four than Argothian Elder. Oracle is a pretty common early creature tutor for me.
Skullmulcher - I think this is inferior to Disciple of Bolas. If your aim is to sac Prossh, without FC, you are going to be netting more cards, 11 instead of just 7. It's also 1 mana cheaper and a bit of life gain never hurts. Also, saccing things like Craterhoof, Avenger of Zendikar, or Chancellor of the Forge, who've outlived their usefulness will draw you more cards as well.
Soul of the Harvest, Primordial Sage I don't like either of these as draw engines for Prossh, because they don't work well with him in a vacuum. With Soul of the Harvest, you aren't taking advantage of Prossh's kobolds, because they are tokens. With both of these, you are only going to be drawing one card for Prossh. Greater Good and Fecundity are just much better IMO, even though they aren't creatures. Greater Good is probably one of the best instant speed sac outlets for Prossh there is. We DO NOT want Prossh to be tucked. Sure we can tutor him back out but that wastes a tutor.
Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle - while this is a clever way to go infinite, I don't really see how they are less clunky than the altars. If anything they are even more situational since you need enough elves to go infinite, AND an additional sac outlet for Prossh. Including Prossh, that's 7 cards that need to be in play for this to work! Umbral Mantle, Wirewood Channeler, 3 other elves, and a sac outlet. Not to mention that Channeler needs to have haste or wait a turn to work. This is really fragile. Speaking of sac outlets, I don't see any in your list, so what's the point of this combo actually? O.o Infinite mana is great and all, but if you don't actually have something to use it for...
Also it's worth saying that Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle are of questionable value outside of this combo. The altars are really good on their own.
Note on instant speed sac outlets: Instant speed sac outlets are a very powerful deterrent (or mitigation) to creature spot removal. Say I have Oracle of Mul Daya and Birthing Pod out and 1G open. Is anyone really going to Path to Exile my Oracle? If they do, I'll just sac the Oracle, and get something worse. Say Urabrask the Hidden. It also prevents tuck effects, and when you've got an ample supply of graveyard recursion, the deal just gets sweeter.
I think I'd rather have Diabolic Tutor in my hand than Sylvan Scrying. I realize that it's there for Cradle, but outside of that, it's just a bit limited.
I have to ask: How does this new build handle a board wipe? It seems to me that you'd be severely set back, especially since all of your ramp is creature based. The main reason I chose to go the reanimation route is so that I would resilient to wipes. Removal is now something that I don't fear all that much. It even plays into my strategy. Not taking advantage of graveyard interaction is handicapping this deck I believe. I don't think it takes away from synergy, I think it enhances it. Reanimate, Yawgmoth's Will, Dread Return, and Living Death are just nuts with the selective discard engines. I really like Silverglade Pathfinder.
You don't have any haste enablers. I think these go hand in hand with Craterhoof Behemoth, especially if you plan on cheating him into play. You'll also get more mileage out of your elves that have to tap. The best creature based haste enablers I think for a build like this are Anger (gets better with Buried Alive), Ogre Battledriver, and Urabrask the Hidden.
Lastly, now that you are playing a slower game, your removal suite looks too weak. Other decks are going to start being a problem for you. When you lean away from the pure combo approach it's no longer just win or lose. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that without some defense you will lose more often. What I'm maybe getting at here is that I think it has to be all or nothing. Either you go for the fast combo, or you go for the slower control. Going part-way doesn't work because you open yourself up to opponents being able to stop you. The removal becomes necessary.
Yo Rowan,
Thanks for stopping by again. Let's address your concerns one at a time.
@Oracle of Mul Daya vs Argothain Elder
The Oracle is slow and telepgraphs. Fine for a control deck, not a creature-based combo deck running 33-34 lands. Argothian Elder goes infinite with Cradle and either of the artifacts.
@Skullmulcher
Is to play around instant-speed creature removal. If you know a player has been sitting on a grip for a long time, chances are he might have a removal spell for your Soul of the Harvest or Primordial Sage. This use case is small, but I can't see why we wouldn't play it. Disciple of Bolas does not play around this problem.
@Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage
Perhaps you don't understand what they're in here for? They basically replaced "dead" cards like Purphoros and Goblin Bushwhacker because they have both the ability to go infinite with Prossh + Food Chain as well as draw massive amounts of cards from just going Elf Ball. Running them also lets me cut the mentioned dead cards and run more versatile enablers like Chord of Calling and Natural Order.
@Staff of Domination and Umbral Mantle
Perhaps you haven't played Prossh combo enough to understand why having completely unrelated combos is valuable. The altars are not good on their own, and you need both to work, and you need Prossh in play with Kobolds. That's two tutors over the course of 2-3 turns, hoping nothing goes wrong. With this deck, you will have excess mana, so you won't have to eat all of your dorks to Food Chain before going off, allowing you to spend a single tutor and go infinite with either of these artifacts fairly easily. If you are unaware of the interactions, let me outline some of them for you:
This is not "clever"; this is based of the Elf Ball archetypes usually run by Ezuri, Momir, Marath, and other Gx generals that have had great success. You have 25 elves and 5-7 of them can go infinite at any given moment. If you are unaware of how to finish the game with Elf Ball, let me explain further:
The same creatures you use to power into your infinite, you can easily use the infinite mana to equip and pump 3 of them up to infinite power with Umbral Mantle and 1-shot the table. Or you use Staff of Domination to draw your deck and do whatever you want, including hardcasting Craterhoof Behemoth for lethal. Actual lethal.
@Birthing Pod
Not sure what your goal of sacrificing Oracle of Mul Daya to Urabrask does for you. Also you can't do that cause Birthing Pod is sorcery speed only.
@Signal the Clans
Signal was included over Sylvan Tutor because you don't lose a card, it's instant speed, and it can easily tutor up redundant win conditions. Here are some sample piles -
I have Food Chain: Blood Artist / Imperial Recruiter / Skullmulcher I have Umbral Mantle: Imperial Recruiter / Viridian Joiner / Devoted Druid I have Staff of Domination: any of the 5 elves listed above
@Sylvan Scrying
The power of Cradle is magnified in a deck loaded with 35 creatures, Prossh, and cards that it goes infinite with. Do not take its power lightly.
@Board Wipes
They'll happen, and that's why Ad Nauseam is in the deck. It's your ultimate comeback card. I played with the idea of using Living Death over Fire Covenant, but this deck is already extremely fast. In fact, it's only about a turn slower than the original list with none of the glaring weaknesses. If I face more wipes, I have a list of cards that I can play MB to bounce back (like Patriarch's Bidding). As it is, not necessary.
@Haste Enablers
You don't need them. The Food Chain combo itself already has win conditions that don't require haste, and the Elf Ball doesn't require haste because it's a snowball effect and you will already have a few creatures out by the time you go infinite. After you go infinite with either Umbral Mantle or Staff of Domination, you can just kill them with what you already have. No need to add dead cards to the deck. I added Lightning Greaves since it costs 0 and can basically power your entire Elf Ball army by itself.
@Slower Game
The game isn't slower. I slowed the deck down by a turn at most. I still run close to 20 tutors, and I still have a ton of ramp. Except the deck has a new avenue outside of trying to make my general work. Everything has webs of synergies now and build into each other. I couldn't be more happy with the direction the deck is headed because my eggs are no longer all in one basket. The elves still provide the same purpose that cards like Priest of Gix did back in the day, except at the cost of being a turn slower. The trade off is that I gain a much more stable mana acceleration package, and alternate win conditions that are compact, fast, and don't require Prossh. I've played probably 50 games with FCP and fished several hundred. Going Elf Ball is a HUGE improvement in both the resilience and variability departments. All wins across the board for me.
the vampires blood artist and falkenrath noble are just as resilient to spot removal as any of the etb finishers, and get around torpor orb effects. I really dont understand why you wouldnt run them...
the vampires blood artist and falkenrath noble are just as resilient to spot removal as any of the etb finishers, and get around torpor orb effects. I really dont understand why you wouldnt run them...
I am running them...and I only need one, given that the amount of creature tutoring has increased greatly with the Elf Ball version. I still run Skullmulcher because it can be targeted by Natural Order and Summoner's Pact, AND can be used as a draw spell in a pinch. The vampires do nothing outside of combo. Make sense?
EDIT:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys don't see this list as a vast improvement over the original. For example, I replaced all of the iffy, 1-shot ramp, dead creature tutor cards in the original and replaced them with quality elf ramp and stronger tutors and a way to deal with FC getting dismantled. I MAYBE slowed the deck down by a turn at most, but the same broken hands are still broken. It's still a combo deck - it's not an elf aggro deck.
oh ok, they're still in your 'cut finishers' section in the OP and not on your decklist. i didnt look at your newly posted list properly. I really think they are the ideal finisher for food chain prossh.
I also think that no matter how many tutors you have, relying on combos that require more than 2 cards is asking for trouble.
I think our playstyles are just a bit different - combo vs control and I think we can agree to disagree on a few points, but as I've said before, nearly all of my arguments are based on theorycrafting, whereas you've certainly have more practical experience, so I'll bow my way out of your thread for now. Let me know how the new list runs.
I also think that no matter how many tutors you have, relying on combos that require more than 2 cards is asking for trouble.
I think our playstyles are just a bit different - combo vs control and I think we can agree to disagree on a few points, but as I've said before, nearly all of my arguments are based on theorycrafting, whereas you've certainly have more practical experience, so I'll bow my way out of your thread for now. Let me know how the new list runs.
That's the beauty of it though. You're already running a critical mass of elves, and a quarter of them just happen to infinite when you have a few of them out. That's a 1-card combo recovery plan from just playing the game out regularly. Yea board wipes happen - that doesn't stop other successful creature-based strategies from being top tier (including Elf Ball). I feel like a lot of people theorycraft in fear instead of in power. You put enough raw power into a deck, you can overcome these "situations". I'll be the first one to say that I have never lost to spot removal on a creature while going off. That's why I'm actually comfortable just playing the two card draw finisher guys. I've only lost to spot removal on Food Chain a handful of times, cause the window for answering it is so small.
Regardless, it's hard for me to explain this deck without people having tried it yet. Even before the Elf Ball version, this deck already played like elves. There's a keen understanding of the intricacies between creature interactions within the deck that make it extremely potent, but also difficult to pilot when you're trying to squeeze every last drop of value or mana out of what you're doing. Either way, don't stop posting ideas. Ideas are what make these decks better. I'll stop by your thread too.
Here's a proposition: Have you heard of Cockatrice MCR (haha, not the card actually)? If you don't know it's a free online MTG game platform. You can download from woogerworks.com. I've really been grateful to that program for testing/playing. Maybe we could go head to head, eh and invite some other folks in for the ride? I think a lot these debate points would quickly be resolved one way or another. It's extremely easy to download and install. I for one would be grateful for a worthy opponent.
Anyways....
The Oracle is slow and telepgraphs. Fine for a control deck, not a creature-based combo deck running 33-34 lands. Argothian Elder goes infinite with Cradle and either of the artifacts.
Alright, the fact that Oracle gives your opponents information about your top deck is pretty annoying, but putting two lands from the top of your library into play just feels great to me. The effect is immediate to, so you can get immediate advantage from playing it. All of these elves require you to wait a turn to work. For the one drops, that's not really a problem but you when start paying 3 - 4 mana for a creature that needs to tap to be useful, it seems risky, especially when someone's got some sort of cheap permanent based removal (i.e. Attrition, Helm of Possession, Crystal Shard, etc) Your elves could be sniped before they get a chanced to be used. I think Lightning Greaves is a smart addition to your build and helps to mitigate both these problems, so good call. It's cheap and effective for what you're trying to do.
Skullmulcher is to play around instant-speed creature removal. If you know a player has been sitting on a grip for a long time, chances are he might have a removal spell for your Soul of the Harvest or Primordial Sage. This use case is small, but I can't see why we wouldn't play it. Disciple of Bolas does not play around this problem.
I don't see what you are getting at here with the instant speed thing. Skullmulcher can't be played at instant speed in normal circumstances, unless you're using something like Chord of Calling. In which case, Disciple would be better cause it takes less mana. Skullmulcher might indeed be better with your elf ball though, since Disciple doesn't do much outside of hitting something that was equipped with your Mantle.
Perhaps you don't understand what they're in here for? They basically replaced "dead" cards like Purphoros and Goblin Bushwhacker because they have both the ability to go infinite with Prossh + Food Chain as well as draw massive amounts of cards from just going Elf Ball. Running them also lets me cut the mentioned dead cards and run more versatile enablers like Chord of Calling and Natural Order.
I think your argument against Greater Good and Fecundity is flawed. They may indeed work better in my list where I've got the recursion, but they can also let you draw your library with Food Chain and Prossh just the same. With Fecundity, all you do is sac one of the extra kobolds you don't need for the infinite Food Chain loop, to Prossh himself, and you've got the unlimited draw. Greater Good has to be used after you've created your infinite kobold army. Prossh just eats kobolds equal to the number of cards in your library and you're golden.
IMO, the only thing really going for Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage is that they are fetchable by creature tutors. Although this is a huge bonus, I don't think it outweighs the fact that Fecundity and Greater Good have a lower cmc, draw you more cards, and are immune to creature removal. And we're playing black so we have access to plenty of good hard tutors.
Also, I'm not sure why you cut Purphoros, God of the Forge and Goblin Bushwacker. They seemed like very strong cards in your previous list. Purphoros bypasses the need for combat completely and in my opinion is a lot better than Blood Artist. I'm not a fan of cards that depend on other cards to be good. Blood Artist depends on your Food Chain to be much good at all, and even then I find Purphoros to be superior because it doesn't target your opponents, is indestructible, and has that buff ability. Regardless, dealing straight damage is preferable to drawing your library IMO, because it's more direct.
The power of Cradle is magnified in a deck loaded with 35 creatures, Prossh, and cards that it goes infinite with. Do not take its power lightly.
It's not that I'm underestimating the power of Gaea's Cradle. I try to ask every card in the deck if it's going to be a useful topdeck in a vacuum. That is, if you have no nonland permanents out, and no cards in hand (besides Prossh) and you draw into Sylvan Scrying, what does that really do for you? Does it help you not die? Does it let you draw cards with Prossh, or get something that does? And that's why I would prefer a Diabolic Tutor. This is a small point though, and not worth arguing too much over.
They'll (board wipes) happen, and that's why Ad Nauseam is in the deck. It's your ultimate comeback card. I played with the idea of using Living Death over Fire Covenant, but this deck is already extremely fast. In fact, it's only about a turn slower than the original list with none of the glaring weaknesses. If I face more wipes, I have a list of cards that I can play MB to bounce back (like Patriarch's Bidding). As it is, not necessary.
Your average converted mana cost has increased a bit. It would really suck to take 8 to face for Craterhoof. Typically, you can assume if your board has been wiped, you aren't at 40 life anymore. How many cards do you typically draw with Ad Nauseam? I just question its effectiveness compared to something like Greater Good or Fecundity, which granted kind of depend on Prossh, but if it's a creature boardwipe we are talking about, the enchantments don't get nuked. And since we playing green, we should already have plenty of mana to recast Prossh. That's my argument against Ad Nauseam for my deck at least. Probably works a lot better in yours.
I would most certainly be open to you tearing apart my list. Just keep in mind the controllish nature of it.
So the issue is a matter of curve and counting combo mana. If you wonder why I'm including these expensive 3&4 drop elves that tap for mana, you might want to look at what they can accomplish. By itself, a Greenweaver Druid can fuel into the Food Chain infinite. All other 4 drops (ie. Wirewood Channeler or Karametra's Acolyte) have the ability to produce infinite mana in either an elf-dense hand or a more drawn-out game.
@Skullmulcher
I removed him from the deck, but not for the reason you've stated. What I meant by "dodging" removal is that when you cast him post-Food Chain infinite, you can't use creature-based spot removal to handle the situation.
@Draw Engines
The reason why my old deck was so fast was because the casting costs of your finishers did not matter. After you go infinite, you're restricted to creature-only mana due to Food Chain. This is also why I didn't play cards like Goblin Bombardment. Mana is extremely limited and valuable when you're building a deck that's made to combo out within the first 5 turns of the game. It's not that Fecundity is a worse card, it just doesn't have the same synergies in the larger picture.
@Purphoros / Goblin Bushwhacker
Few things are misunderstood here. First off, the reason I moved away from my old list is because I always had a large amount of dead cards, pigeonholed into a single combo. Goblin Bushwhacker was one of these cards. The benefit of using the 6-drop draw guys is that they can be used while elf-balling to draw more cards. I recently added Purphoros back into the deck because he actually becomes an infinite mana dump when paired with Wirewood Channeler or Argothian Elder. I ended up cutting Blood Artist because he doesn't have a dual purpose like Purphoros does. But to further clarify, Blood Artist is highly desirable because he ALSO doesn't lose to single spot removal. You go infinite with Prossh, cast Blood Artist, then even if they mana to kill Prossh in response, you can just re-cast Prossh then use all of the death triggers from his sacrifice. They can't use spot removal after Blood Artist is resolved either, because you can just stack all of the sacrifice triggers.
@Gaea's Cradle
In my old deck, and even more-so in this deck, Gaea's Cradle is an absolute house. It'll let you pump out upwards of 3 mana by the third turn, letting you trivialize the costs of the more expensive cards in the deck, or powering out an infinite combo extremely early. It's not for Prossh - it's for the insane number of mana dorks in this deck.
@Ad Nauseam
If I could have it my way, I would ban this card (along with a handful of others). In most cases, it is a 1-card "I-Win" button. Both of your preferred card draw options are expensive, both mana-wise and cost of activation-wise. Ad Nauseam is a cheap way to surprise blowout your opponents EOT. My current average cmc is about 2, so I'm comfortable running the card.
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So I haven't tested this list (as I'm still working out the synergies and minute details), but it's starting to come closer together. I really scoured the internet, looking for others that have pushed elf ball in different directions. In terms of consistency and speed, this list is definitely half a peg down from its former glory. The upside is that it has a lot more options and isn't worried about getting blown out by well-timed countermagic or removal. It still has the ability to win on turn 3, and still shoots to win before turn 5, so the base criteria of speed is still being met. As I'm testing sample hands and playing out my turns, I noticed that I'm still a little light on the number of elves. I had a moment where I began to question whether or not going elves was the correct choice, but I feel much more confident when I sample hands and see the breadth of the deck unfold. I'm sure after I give the deck its due time, we'll have a solid incarnation of Prossh on-hand.
The second moment of uncertainty I had was whether or not this was truly the most optimal way to build Prossh. Philosophically, Prossh is not as black and white as most people take him to be. Either you want to use the tokens for damage, for value, or as part of an infinite. And for the majority of the time, none of these three options work synergistically. I keep doing double-takes: do you go ramp/control/damage, ramp stax, ramp midrange combo, some combination of all of it? I personally don't think Jund has what it takes to be a dedicated control deck. It has excellent spot removal and a bunch of great resource denial strategies, but the commander was designed at too high of a mana cost to maintain all of it. As an aggro deck, Prossh requires too much help, and most of the time the aggro part of the deck both doesn't come out fast enough and can usually only 1-shot a single player at a time. This doesn't get into other factors like needing haste, needing to sacrifice your tokens, or even needing to sacrifice Prossh. You eat away at all of your own tempo and value to knock out one player. No good.
So in my head, building a Jund ramp/combo deck is the best way to build Prossh. There might be room for control elements, but I think that's a losing proposition against the UGx decks that can ease into infinite turns. Jund is in the colors with the best acceleration, so we should focus on that. Changing to elves without sacrificing too much speed, building a foundation for resilience, while still having access to the original, compact Food Chain combo, is where my head is at.
The new list looks good. I'd like to fish it at some point.
Winter Orb certainly seems like a smart choice for this deck since the majority of your mana accel is creature based. I might go that route as well. Some creature based land destruction that I really like is Keldon Firebombers. Might be good here since it's tutorable with your creature tutors.
What would you say about Aluren in here? Seems like it could really amp things up. It's like a green Dream Halls.
Another card I stumbled upon is Skyshroud Poacher. It's a little mana intensive but could help you get your combos into place.
The new list looks good. I'd like to fish it at some point.
Winter Orb certainly seems like a smart choice for this deck since the majority of your mana accel is creature based. I might go that route as well. Some creature based land destruction that I really like is Keldon Firebombers. Might be good here since it's tutorable with your creature tutors.
What would you say about Aluren in here? Seems like it could really amp things up. It's like a green Dream Halls.
Another card I stumbled upon is Skyshroud Poacher. It's a little mana intensive but could help you get your combos into place.
Those are some good ideas. Earthshaker Shaman was also a card I was looking at. Since the deck slowed down some, it might be smart to include a few crippling pieces of disruption.
Aluren is an interesting idea, although I don't draw cards at a fast enough rate to warrant it. Actually, my card filtering is weak in general. I think I probably want to play Slate of Ancestry.
Skyshroud Poacher. I actually had a discussion with a friend about this card. It's probably worth playing here, not sure why I didn't include it originally.
And I too need to spend a night fishing this deck to make sure everything flows correctly. It'll happen soon enough.
Aluren does want a lot of early card draw, which can certainly be done with Skullclamp but maybe not dependably. I think it's worth a test run. Against some decks it would just smash face, against Animar or Edric, you would be in trouble.
Aluren does want a lot of early card draw, which can certainly be done with Skullclamp but maybe not dependably. I think it's worth a test run. Against some decks it would just smash face, against Animar or Edric, you would be in trouble.
Another bit of a fumble, I managed to run about two dozen hands tonight. The deck is okay - still very shaky and unsure of what it wants to do in many scenarios. I think I'll have to go back to the drawing board a bit to turn things right. There's two primary paths I could take with this:
Go full on elf ball: this means really committing to the number of elves in the deck. Because Prossh is not an elf, I'm already at a disadvantage, but having access to black makes me more consistent in multiplayer than say, Ezuri. Die-hard Ezuri players can probably make a case, but at face value this is what I'm looking at.
Maintain a hyper-effective combo attitude: this will require some serious pruning. The issue now is similar to the older build of Prossh: do you want to try and reach 5 elves? Or do you want to snackrifice them for Food Chain? Is it better to spend your tutors on card draw or on Food Chain? It's a tough, tough call. I think with this mindset, the deck will have to evolve into some sort of hybrid denial-control/combo deck. I'm not even sure what that'd look like.
Either way, I'm trying to recruit the help of you guys to make this work better. Otherwise, I actually spent some time tonight tuning the old list, and it is actually outperforming in the consistency department by a wide margin. I can attribute this directly to the fact that most decks can't even play cards like Demonic Consultation, effectively upping my tutor count to numbers much higher than the average combo deck. I dropped the land count and re-added Sylvan Ranger-type cards along with Quirion Sentinel type cards, allowing for gruesomely explosive speed. The other major change is the re-inclusion of heavy draw. Between Wheel of Fortune, Necropotence, and Ad Nauseam, I have several ways to bounce back from getting knocked out of a game. The inclusion of Riftsweeper gives me the much needed out to RFG that you guys were worried about. IT costs the same amount of tutors as the altar plan, except I can snackrifice Riftsweeper for Food Chain mana. The altars will require a ton of work to re-cast Prossh with. I might consider playing something like Treasonous Ogre as another bounce-back card.
The way the elf deck plays out, it's slightly more resilient as the cost of huge blows to both consistency and speed. Here's my most updated FCP list for reference. I almost want to dub it "Jund Storm".
Stoneshaker Shaman is a really interesting card. I like it, but I wonder if it's good enough. I think we pretty much just want a Winter Orb. I still think that Keldon Firebombers could be good though.
Riftsweeper is very cool and exactly the kind of broken thing FCP needed. Kudos. Overall, I dig the improvements. This is a list I could definitely invest in.
But, I think I'd like to see one more regrowth effect in here at least. Treasured Find is a good one. Nature's Spiral is decent. Reviving Melody is card advantage. Recollect is subpar but also an option. Not only will these get Food Chain back, but I foresee them grabbing other things like card draw, tutors, and ramp for a second use. I'd almost rather see a Regrowth in my hand than one of the subpar tutors (I'm looking at you Divining Witch)
I still think that enchantment removal and counterspells are going to be problem for FCP even with your current answers/protection. I know that my Primer list could stop FCP from going off at least a third of the time, and that's just one opponent. Slotting in a bit more recursion would be a smart way to combat this.
My only other concern would have to be removal. Chaos Warp, Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge are the most efficient and versatile answers I can think of. What you are currently running seems a bit narrow. FCP isn't the only hyper competitive list out there, and not all of them are blue.
How much do you really need to see Elvish Visionary or Wall of Blossoms? I understand that they effectively shrink the deck and are Food Chain foddder, but I wonder if they are the best use of these slots.
Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal are also a bit weak IMO. I would think you'd want something that gives you a more permanent advantage that can also be eaten by Food Chain. These cards would be a lot better in 1v1 matches.
Anyway, my experience is just that the more you put your eggs into one basket for the sake of speed, the chances of you getting blown out increase. That's not to say that we can't focus on Food Chain, but I do think a bit more removal and recursion would be helpful for this list without completely changing it. Elfball looks resilient, but overall I still like FCP better because it's hyper focused on Food Chain as the means to your win cons. Your infinite elf win cons seem to distract from the overall thrust of the deck without taking advantage of your commander all that much.
EDIT: What about Azusa, Lost but Seeking? Seems like she has the potential to be very explosive, especially with your new land fetching creatures. I like her a lot and she's definitely going in my list.
Stoneshaker Shaman is a really interesting card. I like it, but I wonder if it's good enough. I think we pretty much just want a Winter Orb. I still think that Keldon Firebombers could be good though.
Riftsweeper is very cool and exactly the kind of broken thing FCP needed. Kudos. Overall, I dig the improvements. This is a list I could definitely invest in.
But, I think I'd like to see one more regrowth effect in here at least. Treasured Find is a good one. Nature's Spiral is decent. Reviving Melody is card advantage. Recollect is subpar but also an option. Not only will these get Food Chain back, but I foresee them grabbing other things like card draw, tutors, and ramp for a second use. I'd almost rather see a Regrowth in my hand than one of the subpar tutors (I'm looking at you Divining Witch)
I still think that enchantment removal and counterspells are going to be problem for FCP even with your current answers/protection. I know that my Primer list could stop FCP from going off at least a third of the time, and that's just one opponent. Slotting in a bit more recursion would be a smart way to combat this.
My only other concern would have to be removal. Chaos Warp, Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge are the most efficient and versatile answers I can think of. What you are currently running seems a bit narrow. FCP isn't the only hyper competitive list out there, and not all of them are blue.
How much do you really need to see Elvish Visionary or Wall of Blossoms? I understand that they effectively shrink the deck and are Food Chain foddder, but I wonder if they are the best use of these slots.
Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal are also a bit weak IMO. I would think you'd want something that gives you a more permanent advantage that can also be eaten by Food Chain. These cards would be a lot better in 1v1 matches.
Anyway, my experience is just that the more you put your eggs into one basket for the sake of speed, the chances of you getting blown out increase. That's not to say that we can't focus on Food Chain, but I do think a bit more removal and recursion would be helpful for this list without completely changing it. Elfball looks resilient, but overall I still like FCP better because it's hyper focused on Food Chain as the means to your win cons. Your infinite elf win cons seem to distract from the overall thrust of the deck without taking advantage of your commander all that much.
Believe me when I hear all of your concerns. The prevailing issue with the deck is that it doesn't have access to blue for stronger filtering / protection effects. Even white would be infinitely better for cards like Silence and Grand Abolisher.
One key thing to remember about the deck is that it's extremely consistent, and extremely fast. I've never played a deck outside of 5C Hermit Druid or Zur that is this consistent. You open your hand an you know right away what turn you're going to win, or whether or not you should save for a rainy day and spend your tutor on a Necropotence. This deck doesn't really have time for playing the answer game. I seriously mean it. The number of turn 3 wins I have with this list is astounding. It is, in essence, a storm deck. Many of the same pitfalls, especially when you have an entire supporting cast of cards funneling into a single combo. This brings me to the pain point: why are Elvish Visionary and Wall of Blossoms so important? Because they help filter, and they're essentially "crittuals" (critter rituals). Why is this deck so fast? Because you eat the dorks you play early on into Food Chain ("snackrifices") to fuel into Prossh and go infinite on the spot.
I don't know how else I can emphasize the speed of this deck, as it rivals some of the fastest for sure. Yes, Niv-Mizzet can sometimes have turn 2 Dream Halls. What if I told you this deck pretty much always has turn 3 Food Chain into death, with a not uncommon turn 2, and a for sure turn 4. Fish some hands on a deck site, and perhaps you'll see what I mean. The 1-shot mana enablers are just as import. Dark Ritual is arguably the best combo ramp card in the game, and the flexibility provided by Lotus Petal is unparalleled. That said, I think I should be playing Gemstone Mine. Thanks for reminding me!
Yes, this deck gets blown out from time to time. My way of coping with that is to increase the raw draw power of the deck, and it actually works out pretty well when you net yourself 10-20 extra cards off of Necropotence or Ad Nauseam. But it's honestly tough, because most players spend the first 3 turns of their game developing themselves. At least that's how my games go. Sitting back and holding answers accomplishes very little - most lists I play against only run ~10 pieces of protection / answers. That's the philosophy of my playgroup anyways. The policeman rarely wins, unless he/she is playing UGx control with time walk infinites.
About the Regrowth effects, my opponents have started letting me loop Food Chain twice, then killing Prossh, leaving me unable to cast my commander. It's happened a few times, and it sucks. But I live with it, because I manage to win about a third of the games I play in anyways (which is a great win ratio in a combo-heavy meta IMO). The more I play the deck, the more I keep wishing: oh man if I didn't play [insert dead removal card] I could just go off right now instead of next turn. The whole "next turn" idea makes a huge difference. Everyone else is tapping out to play Nature's Lore or Sylvan Library, and then you just go off. Pretty much forces your opponents to have a Force of Will equivalent or eat it - most of the time they aren't even ready to pay for Pact of Negation yet. I also play in a metagame where there's generally 3+ blue players in a game, so the amount of REB effects I have is warranted. Regardless, I look at Regrowth in my hand most of the time, and it's just dead. That's the speed I'm operating at.
As for "answers", the best are ones that are creatures. Tin-Street Hooligan comes to mind, and cards like Reclamation Sage are great. Abrupt Decay was chosen because it was the most efficient for handling the widest variety of annoying answers. I'm talking about: Hushing Gryff, Torpor Orb, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker and the like. I tried to think of more expensive things that would totally mess me up, and I think the only one is Humility. That card will generally be handled by another player, so I usually just sit back and sculpt with Necropotence if that happens.
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I suppose my obsession with this list stems from the fact that I haven't been happy with any other incarnation of Prossh. I've talked about this before in an earlier post; Prossh is expensive and you want to make him work, but all three primary strategies he deploys take away from each other:
Tokens for Aggro: require too many cards to make work. You needs lots of pump, and you aren't even guaranteed to kill more than one player at a time (if even one player).
Tokens for Value/Stax: Prossh is too high on the curve to properly abuse stax. He's also a support card and not necessarily a stax piece himself. Also, Stax is definitely iffy when your main method is mana denial (ie Blood Moon effects) in a tri-color deck. Counter-intuitive.
Midrange Combo: probably the strongest incarnation of the deck, but doesn't fully utilize Prossh's potential. Still, you get to play lots of control and broken Jund spells.
FCP: Jund Storm, with the same pitfalls of playing any other storm deck. The sum is definitely greater than its parts, and it shows during its small windows of vulnerability.
Perhaps I'm going to work a bit more on the midrange combo deck. The question is deciding which combos are best. Is it Tooth and Nail? Is it Survival of the Fittest? Do you even bother with Food Chain? I think the former two are true; you don't want to play Food Chain in a deck where the combo pieces themselves don't have enough impact outside of being in the combo. Prossh is a weird, fickle general with too many avenues to take it in. It's making me go nuts haha.
What about Azusa, Lost but Seeking? Seems like she has the potential to be very explosive, especially with your new land fetching creatures. I like her a lot and she's definitely going in my list.
I think you missed this comment, as I edited it in rather late.
I really really wish we could play at the same table MCR. I think I'd learn a lot. I know my Primer could be improved, but lately I haven't faced any lists that force it to evolve.
I tend to loath playing against casual players. The whole mindset to me is appalling to say the least. There's no room for growth. I find the whole "rage quit" culture to be downright childish. I hate getting called a douchebag just because I played Counterbalance and Scroll Rack in the same turn. Where is your competitive mentality? This is a game. I can understand budget concerns, but when you start foiling out a clunky, flavor prioritized, awkward deck and get upset when you lose, you've got issues man! END RANT.
What about Azusa, Lost but Seeking? Seems like she has the potential to be very explosive, especially with your new land fetching creatures. I like her a lot and she's definitely going in my list.
I think you missed this comment, as I edited it in rather late.
I really really wish we could play at the same table MCR. I think I'd learn a lot. I know my Primer could be improved, but lately I haven't faced any lists that force it to evolve.
I tend to loath playing against casual players. The whole mindset to me is appalling to say the least. There's no room for growth. I find the whole "rage quit" culture to be downright childish. I hate getting called a douchebag just because I played Counterbalance and Scroll Rack in the same turn. Where is your competitive mentality? This is a game. I can understand budget concerns, but when you start foiling out a clunky, flavor prioritized, awkward deck and get upset when you lose, you've got issues man! END RANT.
About Azusa - she's good but this isn't the place for it. You're looking at it from too narrow of a lens. My land count is actually only 32, and I usually win off 2-3 lands. The creatures actually just help me hit my regular land drops or help feed Mox Diamond.
And I hear you about extreme casual players. I'm okay with it if I have a deck for that kind of group, but I will always be a spike despite every effort I make to try and abstain from the tryhard habits.
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Regarding Prossh, I think I've literally exhausted every possible option for the deck. But there has to be a more powerful combination of cards that I haven't seen yet. I'm going to be crafting a list soon that uses Prossh as a combo piece (sac outlet) and tries to get value out of the tokens (card draw, perhaps some sort of control stax effects), while focusing on just ramping and playing some annoying denial cards to fight against the blue decks. This is sort of like the FCP V2 list I had, but I think it'd be smarter just to win with Tooth and Nail or Survival of the Fittest. Birthing Pod might work too, but I kind of want to play Null Rod, so we'll see.
As noted in an earlier post, Demonic Consultation (as well as Divining Witch) was sort of a red flag for me. I saw your answer to that question, but I am wondering what happens if you mistakenly exiled FC when using this method of tutoring. (Since you have to toss the top six of your library)
Is there a strategy in ensuring this doesn't happen that I'm just overlooking? If it does happen, how do you bounce back?
As noted in an earlier post, Demonic Consultation (as well as Divining Witch) was sort of a red flag for me. I saw your answer to that question, but I am wondering what happens if you mistakenly exiled FC when using this method of tutoring. (Since you have to toss the top six of your library)
Is there a strategy in ensuring this doesn't happen that I'm just overlooking? If it does happen, how do you bounce back?
Thanks
No worries. These are not red flags because the only thing you're ever tutoring for is Food Chain. This deck also has 10+ redundant win conditions, meaning that it isn't hard to naturally draw into one; there's often one in your starting hand; or you run several creatures that are part of the "Food Chain Snackrificing" prior to casting Prossh, that tutor for a win condition. In fact, the only two things you aggressively mulligan for are a win condition and a tutor for Food Chain. I take pride in being able to run the two tutors with virtually 0 worry, and they're probably the few cards that actually push this deck into being as consistent as it is.
Let me provide an example of a decent starting hand that best illustrates how potent the "snackrificing" chain can get:
This is a turn 3 win with countermagic protection.
Turn 1: Forest, Birds of Paradise Turn 2: Mana Confluence, play Sylvan Ranger, get Swamp; EOT, cast Demonic Consultation for Food Chain Turn 3: Swamp, Food Chain (Birds mana open for Guttural Response - FC resolves), snack Sylvan Ranger for RRR, cast Imperial Recruiter fetching Fierce Empath, snack Imperial Recruiter for GGGG, cast Fierce Empath for Chancellor of the Forge, snack Fierce Empath for RRRR(G), snack Birds of Paradise for BB(RRRR)(G), cast Prossh, go infinite, cast Chancellor of the Forge and attack for infinite.
I didn't include any cards I may have drawn on the first three turns, and my hand doesn't include any busted ramp.
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EDIT:
Didn't read your question thoroughly, my bad. I just realized that if you're concerned about the 6 cards clause, in my 50 games or so, I've cast these two cards at least a dozen times. Never happened to me. In the utmost emergency scenario, there is Riftsweeper.
Here's my Prossh list. It's getting there but is still much slower than yours. I don't focus on Food Chain as my sole win condition but go with alternate token producers and Craterhoof Behemoth as backup. I'd appreciate you taking a look at it if you have a moment.
I'm curious. What's your answer to cards like Bitter Ordeal, Jester's Cap, and Extract? Also, an exiling counterspell like Mindbreak Trap, or any removal/counter followed by graveyard hate has the same effect. Do you just concede? Without it, you are basically forced to rely only on Prossh to generate enough tokens to win - and that's much much too slow.
I guess losing Prossh to a tuck is less likely to be a problem since you have so many tutors (nearly half your deck) but Avenger of Zendikar is arguably the best alternate way to generate tokens in Jund. Obviously, tokens fuel our win conditions. If we lose that fuel we are dead in the water.
The other thing that worries me about your list is it's almost total lack of removal. (Chaos Warp, Beast Within, Toxic Deluge, and the like) or for that matter, any kind of lategame resiliency. If you are facing equally competitive decks, how do you respond to your opponent's early threats? My Niv-Mizzet primer deck can win on turn 1 and 2 and can lay down threats that if not answered will win me the game as well. You are banking an the resources race, which I can see that you will win more often than not but still... it's win early or die for you isn't it?
To summarize, if I Mindbreak Trap your turn 2 Food Chain, you're pretty much done.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I wanted to nod to your FCP v2 list and say that it's more to my liking. While you lose the probability of that turn 3-4 win in a vacuum, you gain lategame resiliency. And from my experience, multiplayer is anything BUT a vacuum, especially in more competitive circles. It's very likely that someone is going to stop your early Food Chain win one way or another and you'll be left behind. Return to Dust, Mindbreak Trap, or Jester's Cap will seal your fate. I just don't like the idea of someone's one card crippling my deck.
In summary I think that your FCP v1 list is much more suited to 1v1 play than multiplayer, and I would prefer it there, while the FCP v2 approach will have a more solid presence in multiplayer.
One strategy that I like is based around cheating big creatures into play with stuff like Natural Order, Birthing Pod, Defense of the Heart, and Chord of Calling. You can then sac and reanimate those creatures at your leisure. Creatures with enters the battlefield abilities are prime targets for these strategies Chancellor of the Forge and Avenger of Zendikar are two of the best in this deck as well as Craterhoof Behemoth.
Personally, there's not too much that's scarier to me than a turn 3-4 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (I've just lost badly to it before). You can even get a turn 1 or 2 fatty using Faithless Looting and Reanimate. Vorinclex is included in my list because part of my strategy is to sac and recast Prossh as many times as possible. I actually want Prossh to die so I can get more tokens the next round to fuel my sac outlets. You might be saying, "Well Vorinclex dies to removal." but if we are playing the card advantage game, then that's expected to happen, and if it doesn't well... then you probably just won.
If you go "lategame route" you are going to want to try to overwhelm your opponents with card advantage as quickly as possible since that will ensure you a win very reliably (it won't really matter if your stuff gets removed because you can just recast two more threats). Besides what you already have Greater Good and Fecundity both serve this function pretty well. Disciple of Bolas is playable here too (Prossh can eat his kobalds and then be sacced for massive draw). Decree of Pain can also be ramped to for some pretty insane draw while at the same time resetting the board.
Another idea is to include some permanent sac engines that allow you to control the board state. Shivan Harvest and Attrition are what I use. Between the two of them and enough fuel, they shut down most decks.
Removal is of course another necessity if we are going the lategame route, and it's going to be meta dependent. This is what I chose to use:
1 Beast Within
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Attrition
1 Shivan Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Decree of Pain
Bitter Ordeal is ironically something that should be considered here, not as a win condition but preemptive hate. Exiling all the control player's removal or control cards for example hurts, or crippling another combo deck.
Heartwood Storyteller might be viable here idk. It can totally hose most blue decks but can also backfire since we have a lot of noncreature spells as well.
Dosan, the Falling Leaf and Vexing Shusher both look good to me since they are creatures and have a permanent presence. They can fuel Food Chain or our other sac outlets (or if you are using Craterhoof, they can beat face).
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Sorry for the delayed response. I haven't been playing much MTG lately, but Khans has me interested in starting back up again. I haven't touched this deck in a while, but I'd definitely return to it (or a version of it). I'll try to address some concerns.
@Rowan
This deck is fairly glass-cannon. I've built in enough protection that I can perhaps fight through 1 answer on average, but anything more than that and I've probably lost. Because it can go off turn ~3-4 consistently (with protection most of the time), I've opted for pure speed rather than trying to play some long game that the deck isn't designed for. In fact, if you're going long game, I'd probably take the stax route. The irony is that this is a tri-color deck and going stax really hurts the mana when your general costs 6. There's a conflict of interest and when I played that variant of the deck, it just didn't work for me.
Regarding Jester's Cap effects - in all honesty, no one plays them. Even in my old meta which was rampant with combo, nobody is going to spend a turn to try and neuter one player when everyone has explosive turns or insta-gib combos up their sleeves. Countermagic and hoser cards are much cheaper and more common plays. If I was in a metagame with a bunch of Jester's Cap effects, I'd probably change the deck, but as is, you can race it or just sit one game out if someone really went out of their way to cap you over the next combo player.
Regarding other finishers - I think the more you try to add in other strategies, be it graveyard, token buffing, or whatever else Prossh can be decent at, you begin to water down the core of the deck. The reason this list works is cause of redundancy and consistency. You try and fight opposition with cheap answers instead of playing in fear of what they have. No, this deck is not a combo deck like Arcum or Sharuum. It doesn't carry any spectacular power plays or ways to lock up the board. It wants to be an aggressor while having answers for their answers, much like Hermit Druid or Storm.
If you actually sit down and play this deck, like actually sit down and try this exact list - you will NOT want to draw anything other than your most compact, direct kill plan. You will be in the fastest tier of combo decks that this format has to offer. I used to play a version with all sorts of win conditions and backup plans - what you end up with is a hand full of everything and nothing. It's frustrating and you'll see it. If you already play in a metagame where this type of deck is a consideration, by the time you assemble a backup plan, the game will already be over by the guy who took infinite turns, or the other guy who drew his deck, etc. If the game isn't over or locked up, that means this deck is, ironically, too powerful for the meta, and everyone needs to focus fire you all in the first few turns in order to knock you out.
I also can't stress how powerful Ad Nauseum is in this deck. It's slowly becoming plan A, though I don't want to admit it.
Regarding FCP v2 - I think this is where things start get interesting. I took a break from MTG right as I began messing around with this list. I think it has great potential, as it is able to attack the EDH metagame from an angle that isn't very popular. Who plays a crazy consistent combo deck with all of this anti-blue, anti-artifact hate? It makes sense though, seeing as the majority of popular, powerful decks are comprised of exactly that.
I'll say it again, the more I play the list, less I care for "cute" cards that don't funnel me directly towards my primary goal. It's the sad curse of trying to optimize a list in a competitive environment. I love cards like Natural Order and all of the cool things I can do with it - it just has no home here .
@batdown
The reason I chose these win conditions is because they are all hyper-resilient to spot removal (especially of the creature variety). I could potentially see adding one more win condition, but I'd have to do some research to see which ones have the most synergy with my creature-based tutors (that makes my win conditions both variable and more dense). Another thing to note is that you can always shoot for plays that involve drawing mass cards to try and circumvent the issue. More and more, a fat, well-timed Ad Nauseum becomes equal in power to just tutoring for a combo, especially if you have the ramp to support it. If you draw 20+ cards, losing will be fairly difficult.
Spot removal on FC actual isn't as common, or maybe I just have a decent sense at sniffing out the people who have been palming answers. Bitter Ordeal is a great suggestion, but not being a creature really hinders the speed at which I can use it to go off.
---
Anyways, thanks for keeping interest in this deck. I'm returning to MTG and will be tuning this list again (probably a variant with some more hosers). I'm wondering if there are any hidden gems in Theros block, Conspiracy, and M15 that I missed. Would love to hear some suggestions. The things the deck always needs are more cheap dorks that give you acceleration and/or card advantage, card filtering, and tutors!
Right off the bat I can target 4-5 slightly underwhelming cards that can all be improved by creature counterparts or hosers. That's the focus of my goal by the way: creature counterparts and hosers.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
The issue with the "altar" backup plan is that it's slow. Extremely slow. And extremely terrible. DO you really think after someone blows you out with a removal spell, you'll have time to tutor twice and re-cast your general? It just doesn't happen. I do realize that my list was a glass cannon, and as people grew more accustomed to it, I started to win less often. Of course people still can't beat the busted hands, but if I try to go off around turn 5+, they know to snipe my Food Chain mid-combo. That results in me being unable to re-cast Prossh again for the rest of the game. Unfortunately, none of the other Jund combos work out well for the deck.
But then the Elf Ball idea happened.
The main trigger was seeing Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage. I remember not utilizing those cards because they lose to spot removal in the Food Chain loop. Honestly, I have never lost to spot removal while in the Food Chain loop, but I gave it the same critical eye until I realized one of the main reasons why FC Prossh was so glass-cannonish: too many dead cards. Both of these 6 drops can be used as card draw engines with the elves, meaning less dead cards. Having more green creatures and green mana also allows me to play cards that were originally considered unplayable, such as: Natural Order, Chord of Calling, and Survival of the Fittest. The brutality is back.
The ultimate selling point, though, is the fact that I can include two singletons that turn elves into infinites. Staff of Domination and Umbral Mantle are two cards that go infinite with multiple creatures in the deck at the cost of very few slots. They're also completely unreliant on any part of the Food Chain combo, allowing you to kill the table with a few infinitely large creatures through Craterhoof Behemoth or Umbral Mantle.
Of course the major downside is that the deck loses its speed. The gains for the deck are healthy and grant several avenues to victory, so overall the improvement will be vast. Feedback is welcome from everyone, and especially Elf Ball players!
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Elf Ball Win Condition
1 Staff of Domination
1 Umbral Mantle
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Blood Artist
1 Skullmulcher
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Primordial Sage
//Elf Ball
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Fierce Empath
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Priest of Titania
1 Devoted Druid
1 Bloom Tender
1 Gyre Sage
1 Seeker of Skybreak
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Viridian Joiner
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Argothian Elder
1 Wirewood Channeler
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Signal the Clans
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Chord of Calling
1 Natural Order
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ad Nauseam
//Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness
//Answers & Protection
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire Covenant
//Cheating Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
//Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Deserted Temple
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Forest
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Why no Oracle of Mul Daya? I'd say it's a better use of four than Argothian Elder. Oracle is a pretty common early creature tutor for me.
Skullmulcher - I think this is inferior to Disciple of Bolas. If your aim is to sac Prossh, without FC, you are going to be netting more cards, 11 instead of just 7. It's also 1 mana cheaper and a bit of life gain never hurts. Also, saccing things like Craterhoof, Avenger of Zendikar, or Chancellor of the Forge, who've outlived their usefulness will draw you more cards as well.
Soul of the Harvest, Primordial Sage I don't like either of these as draw engines for Prossh, because they don't work well with him in a vacuum. With Soul of the Harvest, you aren't taking advantage of Prossh's kobolds, because they are tokens. With both of these, you are only going to be drawing one card for Prossh. Greater Good and Fecundity are just much better IMO, even though they aren't creatures. Greater Good is probably one of the best instant speed sac outlets for Prossh there is. We DO NOT want Prossh to be tucked. Sure we can tutor him back out but that wastes a tutor.
Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle - while this is a clever way to go infinite, I don't really see how they are less clunky than the altars. If anything they are even more situational since you need enough elves to go infinite, AND an additional sac outlet for Prossh. Including Prossh, that's 7 cards that need to be in play for this to work! Umbral Mantle, Wirewood Channeler, 3 other elves, and a sac outlet. Not to mention that Channeler needs to have haste or wait a turn to work. This is really fragile. Speaking of sac outlets, I don't see any in your list, so what's the point of this combo actually? O.o Infinite mana is great and all, but if you don't actually have something to use it for...
Also it's worth saying that Staff of Domination, Umbral Mantle are of questionable value outside of this combo. The altars are really good on their own since they can sac prossh and kobolds for mana advantage at instant speed.
Note on instant speed sac outlets: Instant speed sac outlets are a very powerful deterrent (or mitigation) to creature spot removal. Say I have Oracle of Mul Daya and Birthing Pod out and 1G open. Is anyone really going to Path to Exile my Oracle? If they do, I'll just sac the Oracle, and get something worse. Say Urabrask the Hidden. It also prevents tuck effects, and when you've got an ample supply of graveyard recursion, the deal just gets sweeter.
Signal the Clans seems bad to me. Why not Birthing Pod, Defense of the Heart, or Fauna Shaman? Birthing Pod is just great with Prossh since we can tutor for 7 cmc thing right off the bat. I like Chancellor of the Forge and Avenger of Zendikar. After that you get Craterhoof Behemoth. If people haven't seen this work before, you can often sneak in an easy win this way.
I think I'd rather have Diabolic Tutor in my hand than Sylvan Scrying. I realize that it's there for Cradle, but outside of that, it's just a bit limited.
I have to ask: How does this new build handle a board wipe? It seems to me that you'd be severely set back, especially since all of your ramp is creature based. The main reason I chose to go the reanimation route is so that I would resilient to wipes. Removal is now something that I don't fear all that much. It even plays into my strategy. Not taking advantage of graveyard interaction is handicapping this deck I believe. I don't think it takes away from synergy, I think it enhances it. Reanimate, Yawgmoth's Will, Dread Return, and Living Death are just nuts with the selective discard engines. I really like Silverglade Pathfinder.
You don't have any haste enablers. I think these go hand in hand with Craterhoof Behemoth, especially if you plan on cheating him into play. You'll also get more mileage out of your elves that have to tap. The best creature based haste enablers I think for a build like this are Anger (gets better with Buried Alive), Ogre Battledriver, and Urabrask the Hidden.
Lastly, now that you are playing a slower game, your removal suite looks too weak. Other decks are going to start being a problem for you. When you lean away from the pure combo approach it's no longer just win or lose. Or maybe it's more accurate to say that without some defense you will lose more often. What I'm maybe getting at here is that I think it has to be all or nothing. Either you go for the fast combo, or you go for the slower control. Going part-way doesn't work because you open yourself up to opponents being able to stop you. The removal becomes necessary.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Yo Rowan,
Thanks for stopping by again. Let's address your concerns one at a time.
@Oracle of Mul Daya vs Argothain Elder
The Oracle is slow and telepgraphs. Fine for a control deck, not a creature-based combo deck running 33-34 lands. Argothian Elder goes infinite with Cradle and either of the artifacts.
@Skullmulcher
Is to play around instant-speed creature removal. If you know a player has been sitting on a grip for a long time, chances are he might have a removal spell for your Soul of the Harvest or Primordial Sage. This use case is small, but I can't see why we wouldn't play it. Disciple of Bolas does not play around this problem.
@Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage
Perhaps you don't understand what they're in here for? They basically replaced "dead" cards like Purphoros and Goblin Bushwhacker because they have both the ability to go infinite with Prossh + Food Chain as well as draw massive amounts of cards from just going Elf Ball. Running them also lets me cut the mentioned dead cards and run more versatile enablers like Chord of Calling and Natural Order.
@Staff of Domination and Umbral Mantle
Perhaps you haven't played Prossh combo enough to understand why having completely unrelated combos is valuable. The altars are not good on their own, and you need both to work, and you need Prossh in play with Kobolds. That's two tutors over the course of 2-3 turns, hoping nothing goes wrong. With this deck, you will have excess mana, so you won't have to eat all of your dorks to Food Chain before going off, allowing you to spend a single tutor and go infinite with either of these artifacts fairly easily. If you are unaware of the interactions, let me outline some of them for you:
Staff of Domination + Priest of Titania (4) / Elvish Archdruid (4) / Argothian Elder (+ Gaea's Cradle) / Wirewood Channeler (4) / Karmetra's Acolyte (GGGGG)
Umbral Mantle + Devoted Druid / Viridian Joiner / Priest of Titania / Elvish Archdruid / Argothian Elder (Cradle) / Wirewood Channeler / Karmetra's Acolyte
This is not "clever"; this is based of the Elf Ball archetypes usually run by Ezuri, Momir, Marath, and other Gx generals that have had great success. You have 25 elves and 5-7 of them can go infinite at any given moment. If you are unaware of how to finish the game with Elf Ball, let me explain further:
The same creatures you use to power into your infinite, you can easily use the infinite mana to equip and pump 3 of them up to infinite power with Umbral Mantle and 1-shot the table. Or you use Staff of Domination to draw your deck and do whatever you want, including hardcasting Craterhoof Behemoth for lethal. Actual lethal.
@Birthing Pod
Not sure what your goal of sacrificing Oracle of Mul Daya to Urabrask does for you. Also you can't do that cause Birthing Pod is sorcery speed only.
@Signal the Clans
Signal was included over Sylvan Tutor because you don't lose a card, it's instant speed, and it can easily tutor up redundant win conditions. Here are some sample piles -
I have Food Chain: Blood Artist / Imperial Recruiter / Skullmulcher
I have Umbral Mantle: Imperial Recruiter / Viridian Joiner / Devoted Druid
I have Staff of Domination: any of the 5 elves listed above
@Sylvan Scrying
The power of Cradle is magnified in a deck loaded with 35 creatures, Prossh, and cards that it goes infinite with. Do not take its power lightly.
@Board Wipes
They'll happen, and that's why Ad Nauseam is in the deck. It's your ultimate comeback card. I played with the idea of using Living Death over Fire Covenant, but this deck is already extremely fast. In fact, it's only about a turn slower than the original list with none of the glaring weaknesses. If I face more wipes, I have a list of cards that I can play MB to bounce back (like Patriarch's Bidding). As it is, not necessary.
@Haste Enablers
You don't need them. The Food Chain combo itself already has win conditions that don't require haste, and the Elf Ball doesn't require haste because it's a snowball effect and you will already have a few creatures out by the time you go infinite. After you go infinite with either Umbral Mantle or Staff of Domination, you can just kill them with what you already have. No need to add dead cards to the deck. I added Lightning Greaves since it costs 0 and can basically power your entire Elf Ball army by itself.
@Slower Game
The game isn't slower. I slowed the deck down by a turn at most. I still run close to 20 tutors, and I still have a ton of ramp. Except the deck has a new avenue outside of trying to make my general work. Everything has webs of synergies now and build into each other. I couldn't be more happy with the direction the deck is headed because my eggs are no longer all in one basket. The elves still provide the same purpose that cards like Priest of Gix did back in the day, except at the cost of being a turn slower. The trade off is that I gain a much more stable mana acceleration package, and alternate win conditions that are compact, fast, and don't require Prossh. I've played probably 50 games with FCP and fished several hundred. Going Elf Ball is a HUGE improvement in both the resilience and variability departments. All wins across the board for me.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I am running them...and I only need one, given that the amount of creature tutoring has increased greatly with the Elf Ball version. I still run Skullmulcher because it can be targeted by Natural Order and Summoner's Pact, AND can be used as a draw spell in a pinch. The vampires do nothing outside of combo. Make sense?
EDIT:
I'm kind of surprised that you guys don't see this list as a vast improvement over the original. For example, I replaced all of the iffy, 1-shot ramp, dead creature tutor cards in the original and replaced them with quality elf ramp and stronger tutors and a way to deal with FC getting dismantled. I MAYBE slowed the deck down by a turn at most, but the same broken hands are still broken. It's still a combo deck - it's not an elf aggro deck.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Board Wipes will happen and with stuff like Toxic Deluge, Blasphemous Act, Terminus or Devastation Tide commonly maindecked, they can happen much earlier than you'd expect.
I also think that no matter how many tutors you have, relying on combos that require more than 2 cards is asking for trouble.
I think our playstyles are just a bit different - combo vs control and I think we can agree to disagree on a few points, but as I've said before, nearly all of my arguments are based on theorycrafting, whereas you've certainly have more practical experience, so I'll bow my way out of your thread for now. Let me know how the new list runs.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
That's the beauty of it though. You're already running a critical mass of elves, and a quarter of them just happen to infinite when you have a few of them out. That's a 1-card combo recovery plan from just playing the game out regularly. Yea board wipes happen - that doesn't stop other successful creature-based strategies from being top tier (including Elf Ball). I feel like a lot of people theorycraft in fear instead of in power. You put enough raw power into a deck, you can overcome these "situations". I'll be the first one to say that I have never lost to spot removal on a creature while going off. That's why I'm actually comfortable just playing the two card draw finisher guys. I've only lost to spot removal on Food Chain a handful of times, cause the window for answering it is so small.
Regardless, it's hard for me to explain this deck without people having tried it yet. Even before the Elf Ball version, this deck already played like elves. There's a keen understanding of the intricacies between creature interactions within the deck that make it extremely potent, but also difficult to pilot when you're trying to squeeze every last drop of value or mana out of what you're doing. Either way, don't stop posting ideas. Ideas are what make these decks better. I'll stop by your thread too.
Cheers!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Anyways....
Alright, the fact that Oracle gives your opponents information about your top deck is pretty annoying, but putting two lands from the top of your library into play just feels great to me. The effect is immediate to, so you can get immediate advantage from playing it. All of these elves require you to wait a turn to work. For the one drops, that's not really a problem but you when start paying 3 - 4 mana for a creature that needs to tap to be useful, it seems risky, especially when someone's got some sort of cheap permanent based removal (i.e. Attrition, Helm of Possession, Crystal Shard, etc) Your elves could be sniped before they get a chanced to be used. I think Lightning Greaves is a smart addition to your build and helps to mitigate both these problems, so good call. It's cheap and effective for what you're trying to do.
I don't see what you are getting at here with the instant speed thing. Skullmulcher can't be played at instant speed in normal circumstances, unless you're using something like Chord of Calling. In which case, Disciple would be better cause it takes less mana. Skullmulcher might indeed be better with your elf ball though, since Disciple doesn't do much outside of hitting something that was equipped with your Mantle.
I think your argument against Greater Good and Fecundity is flawed. They may indeed work better in my list where I've got the recursion, but they can also let you draw your library with Food Chain and Prossh just the same. With Fecundity, all you do is sac one of the extra kobolds you don't need for the infinite Food Chain loop, to Prossh himself, and you've got the unlimited draw. Greater Good has to be used after you've created your infinite kobold army. Prossh just eats kobolds equal to the number of cards in your library and you're golden.
IMO, the only thing really going for Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage is that they are fetchable by creature tutors. Although this is a huge bonus, I don't think it outweighs the fact that Fecundity and Greater Good have a lower cmc, draw you more cards, and are immune to creature removal. And we're playing black so we have access to plenty of good hard tutors.
Also, I'm not sure why you cut Purphoros, God of the Forge and Goblin Bushwacker. They seemed like very strong cards in your previous list. Purphoros bypasses the need for combat completely and in my opinion is a lot better than Blood Artist. I'm not a fan of cards that depend on other cards to be good. Blood Artist depends on your Food Chain to be much good at all, and even then I find Purphoros to be superior because it doesn't target your opponents, is indestructible, and has that buff ability. Regardless, dealing straight damage is preferable to drawing your library IMO, because it's more direct.
It's not that I'm underestimating the power of Gaea's Cradle. I try to ask every card in the deck if it's going to be a useful topdeck in a vacuum. That is, if you have no nonland permanents out, and no cards in hand (besides Prossh) and you draw into Sylvan Scrying, what does that really do for you? Does it help you not die? Does it let you draw cards with Prossh, or get something that does? And that's why I would prefer a Diabolic Tutor. This is a small point though, and not worth arguing too much over.
Your average converted mana cost has increased a bit. It would really suck to take 8 to face for Craterhoof. Typically, you can assume if your board has been wiped, you aren't at 40 life anymore. How many cards do you typically draw with Ad Nauseam? I just question its effectiveness compared to something like Greater Good or Fecundity, which granted kind of depend on Prossh, but if it's a creature boardwipe we are talking about, the enchantments don't get nuked. And since we playing green, we should already have plenty of mana to recast Prossh. That's my argument against Ad Nauseam for my deck at least. Probably works a lot better in yours.
I would most certainly be open to you tearing apart my list. Just keep in mind the controllish nature of it.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
@Oracle / Mana Elves
So the issue is a matter of curve and counting combo mana. If you wonder why I'm including these expensive 3&4 drop elves that tap for mana, you might want to look at what they can accomplish. By itself, a Greenweaver Druid can fuel into the Food Chain infinite. All other 4 drops (ie. Wirewood Channeler or Karametra's Acolyte) have the ability to produce infinite mana in either an elf-dense hand or a more drawn-out game.
@Skullmulcher
I removed him from the deck, but not for the reason you've stated. What I meant by "dodging" removal is that when you cast him post-Food Chain infinite, you can't use creature-based spot removal to handle the situation.
@Draw Engines
The reason why my old deck was so fast was because the casting costs of your finishers did not matter. After you go infinite, you're restricted to creature-only mana due to Food Chain. This is also why I didn't play cards like Goblin Bombardment. Mana is extremely limited and valuable when you're building a deck that's made to combo out within the first 5 turns of the game. It's not that Fecundity is a worse card, it just doesn't have the same synergies in the larger picture.
@Purphoros / Goblin Bushwhacker
Few things are misunderstood here. First off, the reason I moved away from my old list is because I always had a large amount of dead cards, pigeonholed into a single combo. Goblin Bushwhacker was one of these cards. The benefit of using the 6-drop draw guys is that they can be used while elf-balling to draw more cards. I recently added Purphoros back into the deck because he actually becomes an infinite mana dump when paired with Wirewood Channeler or Argothian Elder. I ended up cutting Blood Artist because he doesn't have a dual purpose like Purphoros does. But to further clarify, Blood Artist is highly desirable because he ALSO doesn't lose to single spot removal. You go infinite with Prossh, cast Blood Artist, then even if they mana to kill Prossh in response, you can just re-cast Prossh then use all of the death triggers from his sacrifice. They can't use spot removal after Blood Artist is resolved either, because you can just stack all of the sacrifice triggers.
@Gaea's Cradle
In my old deck, and even more-so in this deck, Gaea's Cradle is an absolute house. It'll let you pump out upwards of 3 mana by the third turn, letting you trivialize the costs of the more expensive cards in the deck, or powering out an infinite combo extremely early. It's not for Prossh - it's for the insane number of mana dorks in this deck.
@Ad Nauseam
If I could have it my way, I would ban this card (along with a handful of others). In most cases, it is a 1-card "I-Win" button. Both of your preferred card draw options are expensive, both mana-wise and cost of activation-wise. Ad Nauseam is a cheap way to surprise blowout your opponents EOT. My current average cmc is about 2, so I'm comfortable running the card.
---
So I haven't tested this list (as I'm still working out the synergies and minute details), but it's starting to come closer together. I really scoured the internet, looking for others that have pushed elf ball in different directions. In terms of consistency and speed, this list is definitely half a peg down from its former glory. The upside is that it has a lot more options and isn't worried about getting blown out by well-timed countermagic or removal. It still has the ability to win on turn 3, and still shoots to win before turn 5, so the base criteria of speed is still being met. As I'm testing sample hands and playing out my turns, I noticed that I'm still a little light on the number of elves. I had a moment where I began to question whether or not going elves was the correct choice, but I feel much more confident when I sample hands and see the breadth of the deck unfold. I'm sure after I give the deck its due time, we'll have a solid incarnation of Prossh on-hand.
The second moment of uncertainty I had was whether or not this was truly the most optimal way to build Prossh. Philosophically, Prossh is not as black and white as most people take him to be. Either you want to use the tokens for damage, for value, or as part of an infinite. And for the majority of the time, none of these three options work synergistically. I keep doing double-takes: do you go ramp/control/damage, ramp stax, ramp midrange combo, some combination of all of it? I personally don't think Jund has what it takes to be a dedicated control deck. It has excellent spot removal and a bunch of great resource denial strategies, but the commander was designed at too high of a mana cost to maintain all of it. As an aggro deck, Prossh requires too much help, and most of the time the aggro part of the deck both doesn't come out fast enough and can usually only 1-shot a single player at a time. This doesn't get into other factors like needing haste, needing to sacrifice your tokens, or even needing to sacrifice Prossh. You eat away at all of your own tempo and value to knock out one player. No good.
So in my head, building a Jund ramp/combo deck is the best way to build Prossh. There might be room for control elements, but I think that's a losing proposition against the UGx decks that can ease into infinite turns. Jund is in the colors with the best acceleration, so we should focus on that. Changing to elves without sacrificing too much speed, building a foundation for resilience, while still having access to the original, compact Food Chain combo, is where my head is at.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Elf Ball Infinite Enablers
1 Staff of Domination
1 Umbral Mantle
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Primordial Sage
//Elf Ball
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titania
1 Devoted Druid
1 Seeker of Skybreak
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Fierce Empath
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Viridian Joiner
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Argothian Elder
1 Wirewood Channeler
1 Gamble
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Chord of Calling
1 Natural Order
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Skullclamp
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
//Utility
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Living Death
//Other Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Earthcraft
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
//Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Wirewood Lodge
1 Deserted Temple
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Twilight Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
4 Forest
Some new things to note about the list:
As always, all feedback is welcome!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Winter Orb certainly seems like a smart choice for this deck since the majority of your mana accel is creature based. I might go that route as well. Some creature based land destruction that I really like is Keldon Firebombers. Might be good here since it's tutorable with your creature tutors.
What would you say about Aluren in here? Seems like it could really amp things up. It's like a green Dream Halls.
Another card I stumbled upon is Skyshroud Poacher. It's a little mana intensive but could help you get your combos into place.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Those are some good ideas. Earthshaker Shaman was also a card I was looking at. Since the deck slowed down some, it might be smart to include a few crippling pieces of disruption.
Aluren is an interesting idea, although I don't draw cards at a fast enough rate to warrant it. Actually, my card filtering is weak in general. I think I probably want to play Slate of Ancestry.
Skyshroud Poacher. I actually had a discussion with a friend about this card. It's probably worth playing here, not sure why I didn't include it originally.
And I too need to spend a night fishing this deck to make sure everything flows correctly. It'll happen soon enough.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Maybe you meant Dragonspeaker Shaman, haha
Aluren does want a lot of early card draw, which can certainly be done with Skullclamp but maybe not dependably. I think it's worth a test run. Against some decks it would just smash face, against Animar or Edric, you would be in trouble.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I meant Stoneshaker Shaman. My bad.
Another bit of a fumble, I managed to run about two dozen hands tonight. The deck is okay - still very shaky and unsure of what it wants to do in many scenarios. I think I'll have to go back to the drawing board a bit to turn things right. There's two primary paths I could take with this:
Either way, I'm trying to recruit the help of you guys to make this work better. Otherwise, I actually spent some time tonight tuning the old list, and it is actually outperforming in the consistency department by a wide margin. I can attribute this directly to the fact that most decks can't even play cards like Demonic Consultation, effectively upping my tutor count to numbers much higher than the average combo deck. I dropped the land count and re-added Sylvan Ranger-type cards along with Quirion Sentinel type cards, allowing for gruesomely explosive speed. The other major change is the re-inclusion of heavy draw. Between Wheel of Fortune, Necropotence, and Ad Nauseam, I have several ways to bounce back from getting knocked out of a game. The inclusion of Riftsweeper gives me the much needed out to RFG that you guys were worried about. IT costs the same amount of tutors as the altar plan, except I can snackrifice Riftsweeper for Food Chain mana. The altars will require a ton of work to re-cast Prossh with. I might consider playing something like Treasonous Ogre as another bounce-back card.
The way the elf deck plays out, it's slightly more resilient as the cost of huge blows to both consistency and speed. Here's my most updated FCP list for reference. I almost want to dub it "Jund Storm".
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Win Conditions
1 Food Chain
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Skullmulcher
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Gamble
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Dark Confidant
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necropotence
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Riftsweeper
1 Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness
//Answers & Protection
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Akki Rockspeaker
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Priest of Gix
1 Priest of Urabrask
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Orcish Lumberjack
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Forest
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Riftsweeper is very cool and exactly the kind of broken thing FCP needed. Kudos. Overall, I dig the improvements. This is a list I could definitely invest in.
But, I think I'd like to see one more regrowth effect in here at least. Treasured Find is a good one. Nature's Spiral is decent. Reviving Melody is card advantage. Recollect is subpar but also an option. Not only will these get Food Chain back, but I foresee them grabbing other things like card draw, tutors, and ramp for a second use. I'd almost rather see a Regrowth in my hand than one of the subpar tutors (I'm looking at you Divining Witch)
I still think that enchantment removal and counterspells are going to be problem for FCP even with your current answers/protection. I know that my Primer list could stop FCP from going off at least a third of the time, and that's just one opponent. Slotting in a bit more recursion would be a smart way to combat this.
My only other concern would have to be removal. Chaos Warp, Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge are the most efficient and versatile answers I can think of. What you are currently running seems a bit narrow. FCP isn't the only hyper competitive list out there, and not all of them are blue.
Niv-Mizzet can get Dream Halls or Omniscience out as early as turn 1 or 2. Scion of the Ur-Dragon likes to win super early with Worldgorger Dragon. Yes, removal has the potential to be dead, but I don't think that sacrificing a tiny bit of speed for a few solid answers would hurt all that much. I think that stuff like Autumn's Veil and Ricochet Trap have the potential to be much more dead than Chaos Warp or Beast Within
How much do you really need to see Elvish Visionary or Wall of Blossoms? I understand that they effectively shrink the deck and are Food Chain foddder, but I wonder if they are the best use of these slots.
Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal are also a bit weak IMO. I would think you'd want something that gives you a more permanent advantage that can also be eaten by Food Chain. These cards would be a lot better in 1v1 matches.
Anyway, my experience is just that the more you put your eggs into one basket for the sake of speed, the chances of you getting blown out increase. That's not to say that we can't focus on Food Chain, but I do think a bit more removal and recursion would be helpful for this list without completely changing it. Elfball looks resilient, but overall I still like FCP better because it's hyper focused on Food Chain as the means to your win cons. Your infinite elf win cons seem to distract from the overall thrust of the deck without taking advantage of your commander all that much.
EDIT: What about Azusa, Lost but Seeking? Seems like she has the potential to be very explosive, especially with your new land fetching creatures. I like her a lot and she's definitely going in my list.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Believe me when I hear all of your concerns. The prevailing issue with the deck is that it doesn't have access to blue for stronger filtering / protection effects. Even white would be infinitely better for cards like Silence and Grand Abolisher.
One key thing to remember about the deck is that it's extremely consistent, and extremely fast. I've never played a deck outside of 5C Hermit Druid or Zur that is this consistent. You open your hand an you know right away what turn you're going to win, or whether or not you should save for a rainy day and spend your tutor on a Necropotence. This deck doesn't really have time for playing the answer game. I seriously mean it. The number of turn 3 wins I have with this list is astounding. It is, in essence, a storm deck. Many of the same pitfalls, especially when you have an entire supporting cast of cards funneling into a single combo. This brings me to the pain point: why are Elvish Visionary and Wall of Blossoms so important? Because they help filter, and they're essentially "crittuals" (critter rituals). Why is this deck so fast? Because you eat the dorks you play early on into Food Chain ("snackrifices") to fuel into Prossh and go infinite on the spot.
I don't know how else I can emphasize the speed of this deck, as it rivals some of the fastest for sure. Yes, Niv-Mizzet can sometimes have turn 2 Dream Halls. What if I told you this deck pretty much always has turn 3 Food Chain into death, with a not uncommon turn 2, and a for sure turn 4. Fish some hands on a deck site, and perhaps you'll see what I mean. The 1-shot mana enablers are just as import. Dark Ritual is arguably the best combo ramp card in the game, and the flexibility provided by Lotus Petal is unparalleled. That said, I think I should be playing Gemstone Mine. Thanks for reminding me!
Yes, this deck gets blown out from time to time. My way of coping with that is to increase the raw draw power of the deck, and it actually works out pretty well when you net yourself 10-20 extra cards off of Necropotence or Ad Nauseam. But it's honestly tough, because most players spend the first 3 turns of their game developing themselves. At least that's how my games go. Sitting back and holding answers accomplishes very little - most lists I play against only run ~10 pieces of protection / answers. That's the philosophy of my playgroup anyways. The policeman rarely wins, unless he/she is playing UGx control with time walk infinites.
About the Regrowth effects, my opponents have started letting me loop Food Chain twice, then killing Prossh, leaving me unable to cast my commander. It's happened a few times, and it sucks. But I live with it, because I manage to win about a third of the games I play in anyways (which is a great win ratio in a combo-heavy meta IMO). The more I play the deck, the more I keep wishing: oh man if I didn't play [insert dead removal card] I could just go off right now instead of next turn. The whole "next turn" idea makes a huge difference. Everyone else is tapping out to play Nature's Lore or Sylvan Library, and then you just go off. Pretty much forces your opponents to have a Force of Will equivalent or eat it - most of the time they aren't even ready to pay for Pact of Negation yet. I also play in a metagame where there's generally 3+ blue players in a game, so the amount of REB effects I have is warranted. Regardless, I look at Regrowth in my hand most of the time, and it's just dead. That's the speed I'm operating at.
As for "answers", the best are ones that are creatures. Tin-Street Hooligan comes to mind, and cards like Reclamation Sage are great. Abrupt Decay was chosen because it was the most efficient for handling the widest variety of annoying answers. I'm talking about: Hushing Gryff, Torpor Orb, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker and the like. I tried to think of more expensive things that would totally mess me up, and I think the only one is Humility. That card will generally be handled by another player, so I usually just sit back and sculpt with Necropotence if that happens.
---
I suppose my obsession with this list stems from the fact that I haven't been happy with any other incarnation of Prossh. I've talked about this before in an earlier post; Prossh is expensive and you want to make him work, but all three primary strategies he deploys take away from each other:
Perhaps I'm going to work a bit more on the midrange combo deck. The question is deciding which combos are best. Is it Tooth and Nail? Is it Survival of the Fittest? Do you even bother with Food Chain? I think the former two are true; you don't want to play Food Chain in a deck where the combo pieces themselves don't have enough impact outside of being in the combo. Prossh is a weird, fickle general with too many avenues to take it in. It's making me go nuts haha.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I think you missed this comment, as I edited it in rather late.
I really really wish we could play at the same table MCR. I think I'd learn a lot. I know my Primer could be improved, but lately I haven't faced any lists that force it to evolve.
I tend to loath playing against casual players. The whole mindset to me is appalling to say the least. There's no room for growth. I find the whole "rage quit" culture to be downright childish. I hate getting called a douchebag just because I played Counterbalance and Scroll Rack in the same turn. Where is your competitive mentality? This is a game. I can understand budget concerns, but when you start foiling out a clunky, flavor prioritized, awkward deck and get upset when you lose, you've got issues man! END RANT.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
About Azusa - she's good but this isn't the place for it. You're looking at it from too narrow of a lens. My land count is actually only 32, and I usually win off 2-3 lands. The creatures actually just help me hit my regular land drops or help feed Mox Diamond.
And I hear you about extreme casual players. I'm okay with it if I have a deck for that kind of group, but I will always be a spike despite every effort I make to try and abstain from the tryhard habits.
---
Regarding Prossh, I think I've literally exhausted every possible option for the deck. But there has to be a more powerful combination of cards that I haven't seen yet. I'm going to be crafting a list soon that uses Prossh as a combo piece (sac outlet) and tries to get value out of the tokens (card draw, perhaps some sort of control stax effects), while focusing on just ramping and playing some annoying denial cards to fight against the blue decks. This is sort of like the FCP V2 list I had, but I think it'd be smarter just to win with Tooth and Nail or Survival of the Fittest. Birthing Pod might work too, but I kind of want to play Null Rod, so we'll see.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
First of all, I love this build.
As noted in an earlier post, Demonic Consultation (as well as Divining Witch) was sort of a red flag for me. I saw your answer to that question, but I am wondering what happens if you mistakenly exiled FC when using this method of tutoring. (Since you have to toss the top six of your library)
Is there a strategy in ensuring this doesn't happen that I'm just overlooking? If it does happen, how do you bounce back?
Thanks
No worries. These are not red flags because the only thing you're ever tutoring for is Food Chain. This deck also has 10+ redundant win conditions, meaning that it isn't hard to naturally draw into one; there's often one in your starting hand; or you run several creatures that are part of the "Food Chain Snackrificing" prior to casting Prossh, that tutor for a win condition. In fact, the only two things you aggressively mulligan for are a win condition and a tutor for Food Chain. I take pride in being able to run the two tutors with virtually 0 worry, and they're probably the few cards that actually push this deck into being as consistent as it is.
Let me provide an example of a decent starting hand that best illustrates how potent the "snackrificing" chain can get:
Mana Confluence, Forest, Demonic Consultation, Sylvan Ranger, Imperial Recruiter, Birds of Paradise, Guttural Response
This is a turn 3 win with countermagic protection.
Turn 1: Forest, Birds of Paradise
Turn 2: Mana Confluence, play Sylvan Ranger, get Swamp; EOT, cast Demonic Consultation for Food Chain
Turn 3: Swamp, Food Chain (Birds mana open for Guttural Response - FC resolves), snack Sylvan Ranger for RRR, cast Imperial Recruiter fetching Fierce Empath, snack Imperial Recruiter for GGGG, cast Fierce Empath for Chancellor of the Forge, snack Fierce Empath for RRRR(G), snack Birds of Paradise for BB(RRRR)(G), cast Prossh, go infinite, cast Chancellor of the Forge and attack for infinite.
I didn't include any cards I may have drawn on the first three turns, and my hand doesn't include any busted ramp.
---
EDIT:
Didn't read your question thoroughly, my bad. I just realized that if you're concerned about the 6 cards clause, in my 50 games or so, I've cast these two cards at least a dozen times. Never happened to me. In the utmost emergency scenario, there is Riftsweeper.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain