Great deck! Seems like a ton of fun, and really strong. Real quick, why Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation? I mean, I guess you could use more tutors, but why those as opposed to other options, such as Beseech the Queen, Demonic Collusion, or even Signal the Clans? Not meaning to be rude or anything here, I just suck at wording posts >.<
Hey no worries, I totally understood your question. This deck is firing on all turbines - the tutors you've listed are all above the acceptable mana curve for the deck. If my goal is to consistently win around turn 4, playing anything greater than 3-4 mana is just too expensive to find a home here. Demonic Collusion and Tainted Pact are amazing in this deck because they are instant-speed and extremely cost-efficient. This deck doesn't care about exiling its cards since the combos operate without needing more pieces from within the deck.
I see what you're saying about clunky combos and whatnot, but I think you should run both altars (or phyrexian altar and mana echoes maybe). They're the best substitute for food chain, and your deck (like mine) is stuffed full of finishers. It's two cards as opposed to one, but still extremely potent. I'd also run at least one copy of either psychotic fury, tainted strike, maybe assault strobe. I know you don't want to water down your deck, but you could substitute 4 cards max and make your deck at least a little more resilient to defensive removal.
Hm. Yea those combos are the ones that I thought were clunky and didn't fit with the gameplan. The altars themselves are okay, but they just don't pack the same punch being two completely separate pieces. Anyone who knows my deck also knows to destroy my enchantment mid-combo, say after a few loops. This prevents me from going fully infinite and also means that I won't be able to get back Prossh again if they somehow kill him. In this scenario, having Regrowth effects can let you play around hate. Granted, if someone flips a Return to Dust at me, sure, I'll fold to your 1-out. Losing to that card doesn't really phase me, and I probably should have played more carefully and tried to bait with Dosan first. But this is almost besides the point. This deck's speed can rival some of the fastest in the format, while still being able to completely hate on the blue-based combo decks. I think this is FCP's selling point, and the issue should be pressed, not diluted. I can already picture drawing the off-combo pieces and never wanting to see them in my hand, so I will probably say no to variable gameplans / combos until I have run this version of the list into the ground and finally decided that I can't beat the hate.
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List Update:
It pains me to do so, but I'm cutting the 3-drop mana dorks after another few dozen sample hands. They are good for pushing out the t4 win, but still require another dork in play to do so. Because of this, I've decided to keep playing Mox Diamond along with some cycling creatures, such as Sylvan Ranger, Gatecreeper Vine, Wall of Blossoms, and Elvish Visionary. I believe these cards provide the grease for the deck I've been looking for, allowing me to finally shave a land (Fire-Lit Thicket) and the over-costed Diabolic Tutor. These guys free up my turns, let me see more cards, and still provide that hefty +3 mana for when I need it. It might also be worthwhile to try some other 2CMC mana producers, but their utility is truly trumped by playing cycling creatures.
This deck has really shaped up since I first drafted it, and I have you guys to thank for it. I'm going to keep digging through gatherer to see if I can find any gems for the deck before I give it a run through the gauntlet next week!
Are you completely averse to adding the pair of altars to your list? With all the tutors you have at your disposal, it seems like it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to fetch one or both in the event that your combo is disrupted by enchantment removal. To boot, you can transmute Dimir Machinations for either of them, and if you've got Purphoros in play you might only need Ashnod's for enough tokens to kill the table, depending on how much colored mana you can otherwise produce. At the very least, I'd wager that finding spots for the pair of altars and sacrificing a bit of efficiency is better than getting hosed by a Disenchant and tutoring for a regrowth, because you'd have an alternate combo if/when FC gets removed from the game entirely (nearly every white deck in my meta runs Return to Dust).
EDIT: posted this right after you addressed the matter--sorry about that.
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
Are you completely averse to adding the pair of altars to your list? With all the tutors you have at your disposal, it seems like it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to fetch one or both in the event that your combo is disrupted by enchantment removal. To boot, you can transmute Dimir Machinations for either of them, and if you've got Purphoros in play you might only need Ashnod's for enough tokens to kill the table, depending on how much colored mana you can otherwise produce. At the very least, I'd wager that finding spots for the pair of altars and sacrificing a bit of efficiency is better than getting hosed by a Disenchant and tutoring for a regrowth, because you'd have an alternate combo if/when FC gets removed from the game entirely (nearly every white deck in my meta runs Return to Dust).
EDIT: posted this right after you addressed the matter--sorry about that.
No worries, it's always good to hear more opinions.
I can see the merit in playing the backup win condition. The more I tune my list to include dorks, the better the list becomes for altar play. I do feel that they will come in at some point, mainly because after I win enough games, players can see the train crash in slow motion, sort of like Hermit Druid, except slower and less resilient haha. When and if that happens, the blue hate cards and sparse spot removal in the deck will really shine, buying me enough to hopefully assemble the altars.
Yeah, if FC gets gripped, I'd much rather tutor for altars rather than regrowths to get FC back, especially because of the risk of exile. Chances are when FC gets removed, you'll either have one altar, a regrowth, or a tutor in your hand, allowing you to recover much faster and avoid getting jammed up.
Yeah, if FC gets gripped, I'd much rather tutor for altars rather than regrowths to get FC back, especially because of the risk of exile. Chances are when FC gets removed, you'll either have one altar, a regrowth, or a tutor in your hand, allowing you to recover much faster and avoid getting jammed up.
Yea I'm definitely happy with where the list is right now. Thanks again for the feedback.
Managed to get in 3 games last night, and this deck is pretty awesome.
G1: Had a turn 2 kill on the table. Involved a Mana Crypt, FC in hand, and 2 dorks. Needless to say, it was a bit of a rude awakening and I had a bullseye painted on my head for the rest of the matches. This is exactly what I wanted to happen so I could stress test this deck.
G2: I keep a mediocre hand with some slower tutors and a Choke. The Choke did plenty of work but I couldn't outrace the Karador deck once he sweeped all my dorks away.
G3: I have a turn 4 kill ready, but two blue players have untapped mana. I decide to go for the Dosan setup thanks to Crop Rotation into Gaea's Cradle. Dosan was countered, but I decided to go for it anyways. With the help of Burning-Tree Emissary, I was able to pull off the combo.
In all, fairly happy with how the deck has been playing out. There were a few underperformers that I'm thinking about cutting, but I'd like to gather some opinions first...
Beast Within: because this deck has sped up immensely, I find it almost useless to have this card around. I have two quality problem solvers already, Nature's Claim and Fire Covenant. I don't think I need more dead cards.
Boil: after playing a few games, blue isn't my only enemy. This card is a bit high on the curve. While it's a pretty strong play, I feel like I'm still leaving myself vulnerable after casting it.
Necropotence: the best card draw in the game....that I can't reliably cast on turn 3. I'm not sure if I should take this card out, since it has the potential to just close games, but the mana is definitely an issue.
Glimpse of Nature: Realistically, I will never have the time to set up a "mini" chain. As a combo finisher, this is just inferior to playing a dude.
I did another thorough sweep of Gatherer and came up on Flamekin Harbinger, which at first I didn't think fetched anything for the deck, but I noticed Skullmulcher was an elemental! Win!
Diabolic Intent: this card is counter-intuitive to what this deck needs to do. I find that when I sacrifice a dork to find Food Chain, I all of a sudden lack the mana to go infinite. I'm really running low on the density of tutors, so I'm not sure if I can actually cut this card yet.
Gamble: I've been told this card is good, but I'm always iffy. I will never use it to find Food Chain, but instead Demonic Tutor or something cheaper so that I don't run the risk of accidentally discarding my main win condition. I know it's efficient use of mana, but this isn't a storm or GY-based deck.
Treasured Find/Regrowth: With the inclusion of the backup combo, these are not as necessary. I know you can still use them to re-use tutors, but I often find I don't need them (dead card syndrome). I did decide to include E.Witness still because she can act as a way to net 4 mana after I get back FC. I know moxnix might disagree on this point.
MVPs from last night: Burning-Tree Emissary, Imperial Recruiter, and Gaea's Cradle.
These 3 cards were absolutely nuts, being extremely potent and able to boost this deck into victory a turn earlier than it should have. My friend also showed me his Animar, Soul of the Elements deck last night, and I was genuinely surprised to see that we had many similar card choices. I should go invest some time into researching the Animar threads for ideas. I think that the two lists have quite a bit in common.
Thanks for stopping by. You have an intriguing list, and I definitely want to spend the next few days thinking about how I can make use of it in regards to my own. My fear with your list is that there are too many conflicting strategies, risking opening a hand with no primary direction and fumbling just short of the finish line. However, I can see the value in running synergistic combos, and will see where I can find lines of similarity between our two lists.
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As for an update, I've been fishing this list incessantly for the past few days and have managed to turn it into a well-oiled machine. Before posting this, I played out 5 hands and managed to T3 every single game, twice with REB mana backup. To accomplish this, I cut all of the slow defensive cards (they didn't help at all) in favor of even more ramp and tutors. The rule is that if it can be a creature, then it should be; and the goal is to cast Food Chain without ever having to worry about having enough mana to follow up with Prossh and then follow up with a win condition. By overloading the list with tutor and mana dorks, accomplishing this dream has become a reality.
I've created a web of synergies that has proven to be quite potent. It would be exhausting to post a comprehensive list here, but if you look closely at all of the card interactions I guarantee you that just about everything in here has multiple uses that all lead towards a common goal. Instead of stuffing the deck with tertiary answers and backup plans, I opted just to force through the win with Regrowth effects, which is a strategy I find to be much more compact and reliable than digging around over several turns for an alternate combo. I want to be the fastest or second fastest deck at the table, and if I get blown out by Return to Dust, then so be it, cause that's just about the only thing I'm really afraid of at this point.
Updated OP. I think this deck could still use 1-2 ways to find FC, cause it's the only real mulligan rule. The next best card is Diabolic Tutor, but I really don't want to play it here for curve reasons. I could put Gamble back in, but I haven't been terribly happy with the card. If anyone has any better suggestions, I'm all ears.
I don't think doubling season and similiar effects are what this deck needs at all. If the sol game plan is to go for food chain and win from their then why bother adding a doubling season to the deck? Even without food chain in most cases Prossh makes enough tokens on his own. Also I think Extractor Demon is there for the reason that it doesn't require attacking and doesn't require damage to win. While I will include Purphoros in my own Prossh deck as well as conflicting win con that slow the game down for the simple matter that it is more fun for me to play that way (and less fast so my opponents get to play their own decks, edh is casual after all. I won't include consistent T3 wins in my decks), Extractor Demon pretty much guarantees once you hit your food chain you have an unpreventable way of winning, damage can often times be prevented.
My only suggestion would be to add a birthing pod. If you happen to hit a game where you don't get a food chain, then you can sac Prossh to the pod and grab a chancellor then recast Prossh next turn. That is a total of 27 creatures on the bf at that point.
Liking this deck very much. A few possible inclusions:
RAMP
- Pentad Prism; mana filtering and delayed ramp
- Chrome Mox; I have a feeling you have playtested this already. It works in my decks, but they are predominantly blue, so...
- Tinder Wall; also solid delayed ramp
- Joraga Treespeaker; kinda Sol Ring
- Somberwald Sage; guaranteed Prossh next turn
REMOVAL
- Ancient Grudge; ultra value
CA
- Skullclamp; the synergy between this and your one drops is amazing
This is off the top of my head. Will write more when I think about it.
Thanks for the suggestions, but if you take a peek at the first page, we talk about why we cut all of the suggestions you've been giving. First, the CMC of the winning creature does not matter because you will have infinite mana with FC. Second, we chose only the most resilient targets; creatures like Blood Artist fold to double creature spot removal (however rare the case). Instead, we replaced all of the more fragile win conditions with creature tutors that also happen to help pump mana into FC to cast Prossh! Here is an example:
I play 2 CMC>6 creatures due to the fact that I run Demonic Consultation and Divining Witch, and as wex101 mentions below, through non-damage means for whatever reason.
I don't think doubling season and similiar effects are what this deck needs at all. If the sol game plan is to go for food chain and win from their then why bother adding a doubling season to the deck? Even without food chain in most cases Prossh makes enough tokens on his own. Also I think Extractor Demon is there for the reason that it doesn't require attacking and doesn't require damage to win. While I will include Purphoros in my own Prossh deck as well as conflicting win con that slow the game down for the simple matter that it is more fun for me to play that way (and less fast so my opponents get to play their own decks, edh is casual after all. I won't include consistent T3 wins in my decks), Extractor Demon pretty much guarantees once you hit your food chain you have an unpreventable way of winning, damage can often times be prevented.
My only suggestion would be to add a birthing pod. If you happen to hit a game where you don't get a food chain, then you can sac Prossh to the pod and grab a chancellor then recast Prossh next turn. That is a total of 27 creatures on the bf at that point.
Exactly.
This deck aggressively mulligans for a FC. It runs 10 ways to get FC and 10 ways to get a win condition, leading to extremely consistent hands. I'm perhaps going to up the tutor count even more in the future, but I've been getting about a 60-70% T3 win ratio in a vacuum, leading me to believe that the deck is getting much closer to optimization.
Liking this deck very much. A few possible inclusions:
RAMP
- Pentad Prism; mana filtering and delayed ramp
- Chrome Mox; I have a feeling you have playtested this already. It works in my decks, but they are predominantly blue, so...
- Tinder Wall; also solid delayed ramp
- Joraga Treespeaker; kinda Sol Ring
- Somberwald Sage; guaranteed Prossh next turn
REMOVAL
- Ancient Grudge; ultra value
CA
- Skullclamp; the synergy between this and your one drops is amazing
This is off the top of my head. Will write more when I think about it.
Hey bud, thanks for the ideas.
@Ramp
Somberwald was okay but did not produce more than 1 color, therefore couldn't cast Prossh all by itself (alongside FC). Joraga is an unneeded Worn Powerstone. Tinder Wall is counterintuitive to keeping creatures in play to feed to FC. Remember that all dorks are mini-rituals, so anything that removes them from play is undesired. This includes Skullclamp - every time I drew it, I didn't want to or need to sacrifice my dorks.
The only thing I haven't tested is Pentad Prism. At a certain point in time I was considering running Manamorphose since I was having trouble having 3 different colors to cast Prossh. Instead, I added Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide, which are just more efficient than both I think. Prism does seem like an idea I might want to try though.
@Interactivity
There are a few cards I've been thinking of, but I don't think this deck really cares about being interactive. I included a singleton Nature's Claim and Fire Covenant as two mana efficient answers for random situations. People haven't started running hate like Ghostly Prison or Night of Soul's Betrayal yet, but that's what they're in there for.
read it wrong. maybe shred memory to get demonic tutor?
Divining Witch is a huge risk, but in fishing, as long as you use your other tutors right, make Divining Witch pretty good. One luxury that this deck has versus its competition is the ability to run insane tutors like Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. A lot of other combo decks require multiple moving parts that are vomited or extracted from within the deck during the combo - this deck operates almost completely outside of those confines. I've taken a risk lately by putting in more creature tutors instead of straight threats because they're cheap and can fill FC mana for Prossh, so these can be risky if used before you have a win condition in hand. But as I've said, being smart about when or when not to YOLO can make a huge difference.
Shred Memory is an interesting suggestion. I had originally dismissed it, but I'm starting to appreciate handicapped tutors that are cheaper on curve. For example, the competition is Diabolic Tutor, which is a turn 3-4 play. Way too slow. Shred Memory, while it tutors for another tutor, can be played turns 2-3, which means my turn 3-4 will be basically make FC cost 5 mana (after I get Demonic), which can easily be made up for with all the ramp. I still really like Divining Witch though - it's a creature.
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Once this deck is played enough times in my meta, I guarantee that I will face opposition. Because there are so many sub-optimal cards in this list, I think I can cut 2-3 crappy creature/FC tutors and 1-2 inefficient ramp spells in favor of 3-4 cards of interaction and probably another hand filler. While I am obsessed with optimizing the deck for speed at the moment, I know I will be forced to tap some players out in order to win. That's where I'm thinking of adding stuff like:
It depends on how comfortable you are Mulliganing? How you and I play EDH is very different, so I pretty much play any hand that has 2 to 3 lands and at least mana rock. I'm not looking for a quick win though. That being said, I think if the game plan is win on T3, then you only need 3 land drops. With aggressive mulls that seems possible, definitely puts all your eggs into one basket though as your hand gets smaller and smaller searching for that 2nd land in your hand.
Reforge the Soul instead of Wheel of Fortune? If you are mulling aggressively anyways then who cares if it is in your opening hand, get rid of it. It allows for a turn 2 cycle of hand into a turn 3 win. I only see 2 card draws in the deck, you aren't likely to hit it on your second draw, and the top allows you to move it to the top if needed. Something to consider anyways.
Not sure you could really run Mox Diamon at that land count either. Are you finding Deathrite Shaman often makes you any mana when you need it? I know in our games there often times is no sac land played by anyone. Its other utility, while useful, isn't really necessary with your game plan which is just looking to outrace.
It depends on how comfortable you are Mulliganing? How you and I play EDH is very different, so I pretty much play any hand that has 2 to 3 lands and at least mana rock. I'm not looking for a quick win though. That being said, I think if the game plan is win on T3, then you only need 3 land drops. With aggressive mulls that seems possible, definitely puts all your eggs into one basket though as your hand gets smaller and smaller searching for that 2nd land in your hand.
Reforge the Soul instead of Wheel of Fortune? If you are mulling aggressively anyways then who cares if it is in your opening hand, get rid of it. It allows for a turn 2 cycle of hand into a turn 3 win. I only see 2 card draws in the deck, you aren't likely to hit it on your second draw, and the top allows you to move it to the top if needed. Something to consider anyways.
Not sure you could really run Mox Diamon at that land count either. Are you finding Deathrite Shaman often makes you any mana when you need it? I know in our games there often times is no sac land played by anyone. Its other utility, while useful, isn't really necessary with your game plan which is just looking to outrace.
@Mulligans
I'm pretty aggressive when I mulligan for an FC tutor, since this deck is already so dense with creatures that tutor for win conditions. The only thing I look for is another dork or broken mana accelerant, which isn't hard to come by either. It's a pretty easy formula and the list has been optimized to open these types of hands. Finding 3 lands hasn't been a problem either.
@Reforge the Soul
It bothers me that I don't have control over when the miracle happens. Sometimes I want to play out the rest of my mana first. I think I would play Night's Whisper over this.
@Mox Diamond
Still good, even with only 33 lands.
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To combat hate and provide some sort of interactivity during my more drawn out games, I've decided to cut the inefficient spells of the deck. These include:
Elvish Harbinger
Too slow. Not only does it cost 3, it takes away my draw step. While the fact that she produces mana helps, I'm not sure she
Priest of Titania
Too often she doesn't tap for 2 mana. I realized then I was only running about 12 elves in the deck. That's not enough to warrant her inclusion IMO.
Treasured Find
A bit overkill here. I only want to see it if I'm losing, and if I'm losing, a single tutor should fix the situation.j
Instead, I'd rather run a few interactive cards to deal with threats or create a proactive assault on my opponents. I've been looking at a few ideas:
All of them have different pros/cons. I think that I'm leaning towards hand disruption at the moment, since it can be proactive and defensive all in the same go. Thoughts?
Update again. Got some more games in finally and there is good news and bad news.
Bad news is that people know what this deck is now and can take proper precautions to stop it. Creature removal doesn't start with the Food Chain loop now - it starts by eliminating mana dorks! This has made cards like Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask invaluable, as they can mask which turn you plan to go off on. In the same vein, this deck would rather go off protected than not, and I think it's safe to say that I must turn this list from an average turn 3-4 win, leaning towards 3, to a turn 3-4 win, leaning towards 4. The upside is that I've added an extra layer of protection and altered the curve so that playing with turn 4 in mind is a real possibility.
Good news is that this deck is still blazing fast and extremely consistent. The deck design philosophy allows a single tutor for FC to pump out a win, and this has not changed. What have altered is the supporting cast, and I will explain my reasonings below.
So basically the more I play the deck, the more interactions I'm finding. Multiple uses for several cards makes this deck a challenging puzzle to play on the most intricate levels. At surface value, it's a bursty combo deck. Beneath its frame is a carefully architected machine of speed, consistency, and synergy. Redundant creature-based tutors let me FC chain into wins from a low creature count, making cards like Imperial Recruiter and Summoner's Pact some of the best cards in the deck. Here is some reasoning for the changes below:
Extractor Demon vs Purphoros, God of the Forge & Fauna Shaman
I took out Extractor because it's not actually immune to double creature removal. I have no way to pay the Unearth cost if Prossh is killed and then he is killed in response to the second cast. This is not the primary reason he was removed though - it's because I have an Azami player here that runs Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre, rendering my milling tactics useless. Technically, you aren't allowed to say "I'm going to mill you until Ulamog is the last card in your deck", so I opted just to sidestep that scenario entirely. Purphoros has the problem of not being able to be fetched out by anything, but it's not impossible that someone is playing Propaganda, which is why having a non-attacking, non-targeted out is important. Fauna Shaman should have been an obvious addition for a deck with 30+ creatures. She allows me to fetch not only win conditions, but important ramp cards like Burning-Tree Emissary. Lastly, I felt that the win condition fetch count being at 9 was too low, so this makes it 10, which feels just right.
Gamble & Shred Memory
These were added as more ways to find FC. I found that 10 ways was sufficient, but not exactly optimal. Upping this # to 12 is a lot more comfortable to me. I ended up cutting Necropotence because of its BBB casting cost, which is hard to produce in a deck full of green producers. While Necro was good, being able to use it to its full effect here isn't a possibility.
Defense Suite
I basically knocked everything down to 1CMC or free. I don't have a lot of mana lying around, and I'd rather be able to cast 2 shields instead of 1. I think they're pretty self-explanatory, although Ricochet Trap is another possible inclusion. Snuff Out may be replaced by Slaughter Pact, but I'm going to test it out first.
Joraga Treespeaker & Rain of Filth
I'm not sure if either are correct, but both are definitely better than Lotus Cobra and Priest of Titania. Both of the latter cards have only a 10% chance to become active, which is too low for my tastes when I'm paying 2 mana. Gatecreeper Vine and Sylvan Ranger were on the chopping block for a while, being only mediocre in most cases. As the deck evolves, I am highly considering adding Akki Rockspeaker and Quirion Sentinel. As mentioned before, these types of creatures are great for when you're chaining into Prossh - Akki Rockspeaker also has the side benefit of being able to be tutored for by Goblin Matron; I've been wishing for a second Matron target for a while now! I would most likely replace Rain of Filth and Mox Diamond.
Lastly, I want to say that I'm considering two things right now. The first is the use of Ad Nauseum. This deck boasts an average 1.79 cmc, making it prime for drawing 20+ cards. When opening a hand with one tutor and not drawing anything for a turn or two, it might be best just to find Nauseum and dig deep. I already do the same with Wheel of Fortune. The second is potentially adding in gameplan #2. I could easily inject a Necrotic Ooze combo into the deck. Given how much ramp I have, coming up with 8-9 mana by turn 4-5 shouldn't be a ridiculous task. It does, however, take cards away from my primary objective. Not sure if it's worth the trouble.
EDIT:
I think I'm going to add in Akki Rockspeaker, Wood Elves and Quirion Sentinel. From a conceptual standpoint, this deck is starting to play out like Modern Pyromancer Storm. You need to find Pyromancer's Ascension (FC) by using an abundance of ramp and dig. Everything feeds into Past in Flames (aka Prossh) to pump out a kill. Having the instant-mana is much stronger than cards like Gatecreeper Vine because they can help mask which turn you will be going off instead of leaving all of your dorks out there for the slaughter. Have the mana now lets you set up with 1-2 mana tutors or other dorks, filling in the gaps now instead of waiting till next turn. I really don't want to cut Mox Diamond, but I don't want to cut any 1-drops either. I already cut Carpet of Flowers because at this point, we're just looking at all the less awesome cards. As I start to wrap my brain more around this, the more it's starting to work out. I know cutting them looks wrong on paper, but in play they just don't work out right. I'm going to trust my gut on this.
I don't think it makes sense to put in here another small combo package, if the overall synergy isn't there to pull it off as a (bad)plan b, because what is good in one deck needn't be good in another deck. I like at your approach of the deck, that you try to make the following battle: hermit druid VS food chain
Both being one card combos, but FC is only playable in BRG-deck . I still didn't test your version, but you might come to a point with a deck, that you can't go further. It won't become more the way you want it to be.
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FC has kind of haste compared to hermit and he as a creature is better recurred(cause creatures are). The main thing i see here is that with all whats in your deck FC works (dorks give you mana the turn you cast it... cast prossh ... win), BUT
this is another weakness compared to hermit.
Also sometimes we still have no win condition - so FC never is a true 1 card combo....
My fear with your list is that there are too many conflicting strategies, risking opening a hand with no primary direction and fumbling just short of the finish line.
There aren't so many possibilities about having choices - not regarding the deck - choices of decks themselfs - of playstyle which leads to a deck that is optimal for that one player. Of course you could TRY to overcome that fear ;P , but not every deck is for everyone. Don't missunderstand me. Maybe i try later to explain.
Hey elfric -
Thanks for your insight. I think you make a very good point about trying to add in other combos - they have no synergy with the rest of the list. Of course, this deck does have weaknesses, but there are very few as bulletproof and quick as Hermit Druid. I would pin the list somewhere between Hermit and Storm, where it's still a "1-card combo" but the deck still has a very "whole is greater than the sum of its parts". It could be possible that the deck will evolve into a metagamed disruption / combo build that features 15-16 answers instead of a 8. Maybe slowing down 1 turn to make sure you can interact or create a strong enough shield might be the way to go, but I haven't had any problems yet, and I think I will continue to play the deck as it is. Just thinking out loud right now.
About FC vs Hermit, I think that Hermit is far superior in almost every facet except dealing with GY hate. The advantage of Prossh is that you can replicate the speed of some of the fastest decks in the format, but that's probably where the advantage ends. Is there another set of cards that Jund has access to that Esper or BUG don't? I'm looking at some interesting choices: Choke, Hall of Gemstone, Boil, Contamination, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think these might be the type of disruption cards to take the deck to the next level. And what I mean by "next level" is providing a unique attack to the metagame that traditional Esper or BUG combo decks do not have access to. The irony is that most of the "LD" also hurts this deck, though there is so much mana production that the list could be designed to circumvent such obstacles.
---
The last point you make is fairly profound. I find that as I constantly mess with and tune decks, the more I end up creating hyper-synergistic combo decks that have tons of moving parts and options - sort of like storm or Pod. That is my playstyle and how I choose to build my lists. So in short, touche
As I mentioned in the post above, this deck, once it's understood, will have a much harder time winning. Granted it's still a fast and consistent deck, a lack of contingency plans and other threats leave the deck stranded. Below, I will detail a list that is, perhaps, one of the more exciting Prossh lists I've managed to finally pull together. It is a culmination of my experiences playing and tuning Jund for the past half year.
The inspiration for this deck is none other than experience. What can Jund do to a competitive environment that no other UGx, UBx, or 5C deck can? The answer is attacking mana. Blood Moon / Ruination effects are powerful against a vast majority of the upper echelon. Choke and Boil are brutal answers to the strongest competitive archetypes as well. What else can Jund do? Pack efficient answers. I don't think there are many other color combinations that can boast such a flexible arsenal - multi-target spells, instant-speed vindicate, blue hate, and other hyper-efficient spot removal. So basically, why rush to the win when you can grind the game out first?
The primary win still revolves around FCP. However, this deck reverses the need for speed and borrows time through virtual card advantage gained with land hate. Only the best instant-value, heavy-costed creatures have been selected to support the FC win, and I'm liking the deck with a significantly less number of "dud" cards.
The secondary win takes a big back seat, but is a threatening presence in a drawn-out game. Oftentimes while playing Blitz Combo FCP, I might draw into too much mana and actually just be able to cast Prossh with no real way to abuse it. Now drawn out games will also have an out for me through 1-2 shotting players while they struggle beneath the hate.
I think this might be the next evolution for competitive Prossh for me.
Got a few more games in the other day. Didn't use the disruption version I posted above, but I'm still tuning the Blitz Combo version.
Won 2 games out of 5, which is solid for me. The games I lost were based on slow hands (lacking tutors) or an opponent using sweepers.
In my attempts to make the deck less susceptible to sweepers, I've started cutting some of the slower mana dorks. I've also removed Duress and Thoughtseize due to the fact that there is usually more than one blue player at the table. I honestly should be playing Choke and Boil, but they like to mix up their decks from time to time - I figured playing Ricochet Trap might be fine instead.
I also fished some hands with Ad Nauseam. Card is an absolute BEAST in this deck. I almost think that if you open a slower hand, you should definitely shoot for it as the secondary plan. I'm also going to try Plunge Into Darkness, which is pretty much a 2CMC hard tutor in this deck.
wow, just looked at your list again and saw Autumn's Veil, which I didn't know existed. I needed a replacement for Rocket Launcher (trying to make my deck more competitive) and this is it! Awesome list, it's been fun watching it develop.
I told you to run ad naus right at the start ;). If it fits the curve it's always good I can't tell you how many times I have mulled myself into oblivion playing doomsday staring down 4 cards against 3 blue decks who knew what I was trying to do and it's saved the day many times.
wow, just looked at your list again and saw Autumn's Veil, which I didn't know existed. I needed a replacement for Rocket Launcher (trying to make my deck more competitive) and this is it! Awesome list, it's been fun watching it develop.
Thanks bud! Yep, I've added just about all of the best R/G 1cmc anti-blue spells. They've been working out great.
I told you to run ad naus right at the start ;). If it fits the curve it's always good I can't tell you how many times I have mulled myself into oblivion playing doomsday staring down 4 cards against 3 blue decks who knew what I was trying to do and it's saved the day many times.
Yup Ad Nauseam has been great. I'm not 100% on Plunge. It's been strong but not as insane as I thought it would be. Unfortunately I'm running out of good tutors to play. I don't really like Shred Memory either.
After few days of looking at the Prossh primer and this deck I started to wonder why it also isn't primer. Deck is pretty great. Though I think if someone kills your Food chain you are pretty much dead. I made somewhat similar, though i run it as a possible combo, not win condition. All in all, pretty great deck. I bet it would kick ass in the new starcitygames video
This deck isn't a primer because of two reasons. The first is that it's a bit narrow - only specific metagames would allow a deck like this, and because interest for this deck has been lukewarm at best, I decided not to push it too much further.
Regarding getting Food Chain countered and/or destroyed - it has happened a handful of times in all of my games. I think of those games, I was able to come back about half the team. People underestimate the raw power of the deck. Untapping to cast Eternal Witness let's you go right back into infinite mode. In fact, Regrowth effects are so strong for this play that I'm considering running Noxious Revival.
Hey no worries, I totally understood your question. This deck is firing on all turbines - the tutors you've listed are all above the acceptable mana curve for the deck. If my goal is to consistently win around turn 4, playing anything greater than 3-4 mana is just too expensive to find a home here. Demonic Collusion and Tainted Pact are amazing in this deck because they are instant-speed and extremely cost-efficient. This deck doesn't care about exiling its cards since the combos operate without needing more pieces from within the deck.
Hm. Yea those combos are the ones that I thought were clunky and didn't fit with the gameplan. The altars themselves are okay, but they just don't pack the same punch being two completely separate pieces. Anyone who knows my deck also knows to destroy my enchantment mid-combo, say after a few loops. This prevents me from going fully infinite and also means that I won't be able to get back Prossh again if they somehow kill him. In this scenario, having Regrowth effects can let you play around hate. Granted, if someone flips a Return to Dust at me, sure, I'll fold to your 1-out. Losing to that card doesn't really phase me, and I probably should have played more carefully and tried to bait with Dosan first. But this is almost besides the point. This deck's speed can rival some of the fastest in the format, while still being able to completely hate on the blue-based combo decks. I think this is FCP's selling point, and the issue should be pressed, not diluted. I can already picture drawing the off-combo pieces and never wanting to see them in my hand, so I will probably say no to variable gameplans / combos until I have run this version of the list into the ground and finally decided that I can't beat the hate.
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List Update:
It pains me to do so, but I'm cutting the 3-drop mana dorks after another few dozen sample hands. They are good for pushing out the t4 win, but still require another dork in play to do so. Because of this, I've decided to keep playing Mox Diamond along with some cycling creatures, such as Sylvan Ranger, Gatecreeper Vine, Wall of Blossoms, and Elvish Visionary. I believe these cards provide the grease for the deck I've been looking for, allowing me to finally shave a land (Fire-Lit Thicket) and the over-costed Diabolic Tutor. These guys free up my turns, let me see more cards, and still provide that hefty +3 mana for when I need it. It might also be worthwhile to try some other 2CMC mana producers, but their utility is truly trumped by playing cycling creatures.
This deck has really shaped up since I first drafted it, and I have you guys to thank for it. I'm going to keep digging through gatherer to see if I can find any gems for the deck before I give it a run through the gauntlet next week!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
EDIT: posted this right after you addressed the matter--sorry about that.
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
No worries, it's always good to hear more opinions.
I can see the merit in playing the backup win condition. The more I tune my list to include dorks, the better the list becomes for altar play. I do feel that they will come in at some point, mainly because after I win enough games, players can see the train crash in slow motion, sort of like Hermit Druid, except slower and less resilient haha. When and if that happens, the blue hate cards and sparse spot removal in the deck will really shine, buying me enough to hopefully assemble the altars.
If I were to cut a pair of cards to fit them in, I would probably ditch Treasured Find and Joraga Treespeaker. Still want to make room for Goblin Recruiter I think.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Yea I'm definitely happy with where the list is right now. Thanks again for the feedback.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Managed to get in 3 games last night, and this deck is pretty awesome.
G1: Had a turn 2 kill on the table. Involved a Mana Crypt, FC in hand, and 2 dorks. Needless to say, it was a bit of a rude awakening and I had a bullseye painted on my head for the rest of the matches. This is exactly what I wanted to happen so I could stress test this deck.
G2: I keep a mediocre hand with some slower tutors and a Choke. The Choke did plenty of work but I couldn't outrace the Karador deck once he sweeped all my dorks away.
G3: I have a turn 4 kill ready, but two blue players have untapped mana. I decide to go for the Dosan setup thanks to Crop Rotation into Gaea's Cradle. Dosan was countered, but I decided to go for it anyways. With the help of Burning-Tree Emissary, I was able to pull off the combo.
In all, fairly happy with how the deck has been playing out. There were a few underperformers that I'm thinking about cutting, but I'd like to gather some opinions first...
So far, the changes might look like:
MVPs from last night: Burning-Tree Emissary, Imperial Recruiter, and Gaea's Cradle.
These 3 cards were absolutely nuts, being extremely potent and able to boost this deck into victory a turn earlier than it should have. My friend also showed me his Animar, Soul of the Elements deck last night, and I was genuinely surprised to see that we had many similar card choices. I should go invest some time into researching the Animar threads for ideas. I think that the two lists have quite a bit in common.
EDIT:
How do people feel about Divining Witch?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Thanks for stopping by. You have an intriguing list, and I definitely want to spend the next few days thinking about how I can make use of it in regards to my own. My fear with your list is that there are too many conflicting strategies, risking opening a hand with no primary direction and fumbling just short of the finish line. However, I can see the value in running synergistic combos, and will see where I can find lines of similarity between our two lists.
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As for an update, I've been fishing this list incessantly for the past few days and have managed to turn it into a well-oiled machine. Before posting this, I played out 5 hands and managed to T3 every single game, twice with REB mana backup. To accomplish this, I cut all of the slow defensive cards (they didn't help at all) in favor of even more ramp and tutors. The rule is that if it can be a creature, then it should be; and the goal is to cast Food Chain without ever having to worry about having enough mana to follow up with Prossh and then follow up with a win condition. By overloading the list with tutor and mana dorks, accomplishing this dream has become a reality.
I've created a web of synergies that has proven to be quite potent. It would be exhausting to post a comprehensive list here, but if you look closely at all of the card interactions I guarantee you that just about everything in here has multiple uses that all lead towards a common goal. Instead of stuffing the deck with tertiary answers and backup plans, I opted just to force through the win with Regrowth effects, which is a strategy I find to be much more compact and reliable than digging around over several turns for an alternate combo. I want to be the fastest or second fastest deck at the table, and if I get blown out by Return to Dust, then so be it, cause that's just about the only thing I'm really afraid of at this point.
EDIT:
Updated OP. I think this deck could still use 1-2 ways to find FC, cause it's the only real mulligan rule. The next best card is Diabolic Tutor, but I really don't want to play it here for curve reasons. I could put Gamble back in, but I haven't been terribly happy with the card. If anyone has any better suggestions, I'm all ears.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
My only suggestion would be to add a birthing pod. If you happen to hit a game where you don't get a food chain, then you can sac Prossh to the pod and grab a chancellor then recast Prossh next turn. That is a total of 27 creatures on the bf at that point.
RAMP
- Pentad Prism; mana filtering and delayed ramp
- Chrome Mox; I have a feeling you have playtested this already. It works in my decks, but they are predominantly blue, so...
- Tinder Wall; also solid delayed ramp
- Joraga Treespeaker; kinda Sol Ring
- Somberwald Sage; guaranteed Prossh next turn
REMOVAL
- Ancient Grudge; ultra value
CA
- Skullclamp; the synergy between this and your one drops is amazing
This is off the top of my head. Will write more when I think about it.
Haha, almost. The average CMC of the deck is now 1.97. That's almost Storm status
Thanks for the suggestions, but if you take a peek at the first page, we talk about why we cut all of the suggestions you've been giving. First, the CMC of the winning creature does not matter because you will have infinite mana with FC. Second, we chose only the most resilient targets; creatures like Blood Artist fold to double creature spot removal (however rare the case). Instead, we replaced all of the more fragile win conditions with creature tutors that also happen to help pump mana into FC to cast Prossh! Here is an example:
Elvish Harbinger -> Fierce Empath -> Chancellor of the Forge / Extractor Demon
I play 2 CMC>6 creatures due to the fact that I run Demonic Consultation and Divining Witch, and as wex101 mentions below, through non-damage means for whatever reason.
Exactly.
This deck aggressively mulligans for a FC. It runs 10 ways to get FC and 10 ways to get a win condition, leading to extremely consistent hands. I'm perhaps going to up the tutor count even more in the future, but I've been getting about a 60-70% T3 win ratio in a vacuum, leading me to believe that the deck is getting much closer to optimization.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Hey bud, thanks for the ideas.
@Ramp
Somberwald was okay but did not produce more than 1 color, therefore couldn't cast Prossh all by itself (alongside FC). Joraga is an unneeded Worn Powerstone. Tinder Wall is counterintuitive to keeping creatures in play to feed to FC. Remember that all dorks are mini-rituals, so anything that removes them from play is undesired. This includes Skullclamp - every time I drew it, I didn't want to or need to sacrifice my dorks.
The only thing I haven't tested is Pentad Prism. At a certain point in time I was considering running Manamorphose since I was having trouble having 3 different colors to cast Prossh. Instead, I added Elvish Spirit Guide and Simian Spirit Guide, which are just more efficient than both I think. Prism does seem like an idea I might want to try though.
@Interactivity
There are a few cards I've been thinking of, but I don't think this deck really cares about being interactive. I included a singleton Nature's Claim and Fire Covenant as two mana efficient answers for random situations. People haven't started running hate like Ghostly Prison or Night of Soul's Betrayal yet, but that's what they're in there for.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
how about dimir house guard?read it wrong. maybe shred memory to get demonic tutor?
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
That may be a fringe case that can come up, and is also related to your question below.
Divining Witch is a huge risk, but in fishing, as long as you use your other tutors right, make Divining Witch pretty good. One luxury that this deck has versus its competition is the ability to run insane tutors like Demonic Consultation, Tainted Pact, and Divining Witch. A lot of other combo decks require multiple moving parts that are vomited or extracted from within the deck during the combo - this deck operates almost completely outside of those confines. I've taken a risk lately by putting in more creature tutors instead of straight threats because they're cheap and can fill FC mana for Prossh, so these can be risky if used before you have a win condition in hand. But as I've said, being smart about when or when not to YOLO can make a huge difference.
Shred Memory is an interesting suggestion. I had originally dismissed it, but I'm starting to appreciate handicapped tutors that are cheaper on curve. For example, the competition is Diabolic Tutor, which is a turn 3-4 play. Way too slow. Shred Memory, while it tutors for another tutor, can be played turns 2-3, which means my turn 3-4 will be basically make FC cost 5 mana (after I get Demonic), which can easily be made up for with all the ramp. I still really like Divining Witch though - it's a creature.
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Once this deck is played enough times in my meta, I guarantee that I will face opposition. Because there are so many sub-optimal cards in this list, I think I can cut 2-3 crappy creature/FC tutors and 1-2 inefficient ramp spells in favor of 3-4 cards of interaction and probably another hand filler. While I am obsessed with optimizing the deck for speed at the moment, I know I will be forced to tap some players out in order to win. That's where I'm thinking of adding stuff like:
Artifact Mutation (super good here)
Tin Street Hooligan
Krosan Grip
Autumn's Veil
Guttural Response
Ad Nauseum
EDIT:
Also thinking about playing Blackcleave Cliffs and Copperline Gorge and dropping the land count down to 32. Too greedy? I'll let you guys tell me
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Reforge the Soul instead of Wheel of Fortune? If you are mulling aggressively anyways then who cares if it is in your opening hand, get rid of it. It allows for a turn 2 cycle of hand into a turn 3 win. I only see 2 card draws in the deck, you aren't likely to hit it on your second draw, and the top allows you to move it to the top if needed. Something to consider anyways.
Not sure you could really run Mox Diamon at that land count either. Are you finding Deathrite Shaman often makes you any mana when you need it? I know in our games there often times is no sac land played by anyone. Its other utility, while useful, isn't really necessary with your game plan which is just looking to outrace.
@Mulligans
I'm pretty aggressive when I mulligan for an FC tutor, since this deck is already so dense with creatures that tutor for win conditions. The only thing I look for is another dork or broken mana accelerant, which isn't hard to come by either. It's a pretty easy formula and the list has been optimized to open these types of hands. Finding 3 lands hasn't been a problem either.
@Reforge the Soul
It bothers me that I don't have control over when the miracle happens. Sometimes I want to play out the rest of my mana first. I think I would play Night's Whisper over this.
@Mox Diamond
Still good, even with only 33 lands.
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To combat hate and provide some sort of interactivity during my more drawn out games, I've decided to cut the inefficient spells of the deck. These include:
Elvish Harbinger
Too slow. Not only does it cost 3, it takes away my draw step. While the fact that she produces mana helps, I'm not sure she
Priest of Titania
Too often she doesn't tap for 2 mana. I realized then I was only running about 12 elves in the deck. That's not enough to warrant her inclusion IMO.
Treasured Find
A bit overkill here. I only want to see it if I'm losing, and if I'm losing, a single tutor should fix the situation.j
Instead, I'd rather run a few interactive cards to deal with threats or create a proactive assault on my opponents. I've been looking at a few ideas:
All of them have different pros/cons. I think that I'm leaning towards hand disruption at the moment, since it can be proactive and defensive all in the same go. Thoughts?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Bad news is that people know what this deck is now and can take proper precautions to stop it. Creature removal doesn't start with the Food Chain loop now - it starts by eliminating mana dorks! This has made cards like Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask invaluable, as they can mask which turn you plan to go off on. In the same vein, this deck would rather go off protected than not, and I think it's safe to say that I must turn this list from an average turn 3-4 win, leaning towards 3, to a turn 3-4 win, leaning towards 4. The upside is that I've added an extra layer of protection and altered the curve so that playing with turn 4 in mind is a real possibility.
Good news is that this deck is still blazing fast and extremely consistent. The deck design philosophy allows a single tutor for FC to pump out a win, and this has not changed. What have altered is the supporting cast, and I will explain my reasonings below.
So basically the more I play the deck, the more interactions I'm finding. Multiple uses for several cards makes this deck a challenging puzzle to play on the most intricate levels. At surface value, it's a bursty combo deck. Beneath its frame is a carefully architected machine of speed, consistency, and synergy. Redundant creature-based tutors let me FC chain into wins from a low creature count, making cards like Imperial Recruiter and Summoner's Pact some of the best cards in the deck. Here is some reasoning for the changes below:
Extractor Demon vs Purphoros, God of the Forge & Fauna Shaman
I took out Extractor because it's not actually immune to double creature removal. I have no way to pay the Unearth cost if Prossh is killed and then he is killed in response to the second cast. This is not the primary reason he was removed though - it's because I have an Azami player here that runs Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre, rendering my milling tactics useless. Technically, you aren't allowed to say "I'm going to mill you until Ulamog is the last card in your deck", so I opted just to sidestep that scenario entirely. Purphoros has the problem of not being able to be fetched out by anything, but it's not impossible that someone is playing Propaganda, which is why having a non-attacking, non-targeted out is important. Fauna Shaman should have been an obvious addition for a deck with 30+ creatures. She allows me to fetch not only win conditions, but important ramp cards like Burning-Tree Emissary. Lastly, I felt that the win condition fetch count being at 9 was too low, so this makes it 10, which feels just right.
Gamble & Shred Memory
These were added as more ways to find FC. I found that 10 ways was sufficient, but not exactly optimal. Upping this # to 12 is a lot more comfortable to me. I ended up cutting Necropotence because of its BBB casting cost, which is hard to produce in a deck full of green producers. While Necro was good, being able to use it to its full effect here isn't a possibility.
Defense Suite
I basically knocked everything down to 1CMC or free. I don't have a lot of mana lying around, and I'd rather be able to cast 2 shields instead of 1. I think they're pretty self-explanatory, although Ricochet Trap is another possible inclusion. Snuff Out may be replaced by Slaughter Pact, but I'm going to test it out first.
Joraga Treespeaker & Rain of Filth
I'm not sure if either are correct, but both are definitely better than Lotus Cobra and Priest of Titania. Both of the latter cards have only a 10% chance to become active, which is too low for my tastes when I'm paying 2 mana. Gatecreeper Vine and Sylvan Ranger were on the chopping block for a while, being only mediocre in most cases. As the deck evolves, I am highly considering adding Akki Rockspeaker and Quirion Sentinel. As mentioned before, these types of creatures are great for when you're chaining into Prossh - Akki Rockspeaker also has the side benefit of being able to be tutored for by Goblin Matron; I've been wishing for a second Matron target for a while now! I would most likely replace Rain of Filth and Mox Diamond.
Lastly, I want to say that I'm considering two things right now. The first is the use of Ad Nauseum. This deck boasts an average 1.79 cmc, making it prime for drawing 20+ cards. When opening a hand with one tutor and not drawing anything for a turn or two, it might be best just to find Nauseum and dig deep. I already do the same with Wheel of Fortune. The second is potentially adding in gameplan #2. I could easily inject a Necrotic Ooze combo into the deck. Given how much ramp I have, coming up with 8-9 mana by turn 4-5 shouldn't be a ridiculous task. It does, however, take cards away from my primary objective. Not sure if it's worth the trouble.
EDIT:
I think I'm going to add in Akki Rockspeaker, Wood Elves and Quirion Sentinel. From a conceptual standpoint, this deck is starting to play out like Modern Pyromancer Storm. You need to find Pyromancer's Ascension (FC) by using an abundance of ramp and dig. Everything feeds into Past in Flames (aka Prossh) to pump out a kill. Having the instant-mana is much stronger than cards like Gatecreeper Vine because they can help mask which turn you will be going off instead of leaving all of your dorks out there for the slaughter. Have the mana now lets you set up with 1-2 mana tutors or other dorks, filling in the gaps now instead of waiting till next turn. I really don't want to cut Mox Diamond, but I don't want to cut any 1-drops either. I already cut Carpet of Flowers because at this point, we're just looking at all the less awesome cards. As I start to wrap my brain more around this, the more it's starting to work out. I know cutting them looks wrong on paper, but in play they just don't work out right. I'm going to trust my gut on this.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Hey elfric -
Thanks for your insight. I think you make a very good point about trying to add in other combos - they have no synergy with the rest of the list. Of course, this deck does have weaknesses, but there are very few as bulletproof and quick as Hermit Druid. I would pin the list somewhere between Hermit and Storm, where it's still a "1-card combo" but the deck still has a very "whole is greater than the sum of its parts". It could be possible that the deck will evolve into a metagamed disruption / combo build that features 15-16 answers instead of a 8. Maybe slowing down 1 turn to make sure you can interact or create a strong enough shield might be the way to go, but I haven't had any problems yet, and I think I will continue to play the deck as it is. Just thinking out loud right now.
About FC vs Hermit, I think that Hermit is far superior in almost every facet except dealing with GY hate. The advantage of Prossh is that you can replicate the speed of some of the fastest decks in the format, but that's probably where the advantage ends. Is there another set of cards that Jund has access to that Esper or BUG don't? I'm looking at some interesting choices: Choke, Hall of Gemstone, Boil, Contamination, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, etc. I think these might be the type of disruption cards to take the deck to the next level. And what I mean by "next level" is providing a unique attack to the metagame that traditional Esper or BUG combo decks do not have access to. The irony is that most of the "LD" also hurts this deck, though there is so much mana production that the list could be designed to circumvent such obstacles.
---
The last point you make is fairly profound. I find that as I constantly mess with and tune decks, the more I end up creating hyper-synergistic combo decks that have tons of moving parts and options - sort of like storm or Pod. That is my playstyle and how I choose to build my lists. So in short, touche
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
As I mentioned in the post above, this deck, once it's understood, will have a much harder time winning. Granted it's still a fast and consistent deck, a lack of contingency plans and other threats leave the deck stranded. Below, I will detail a list that is, perhaps, one of the more exciting Prossh lists I've managed to finally pull together. It is a culmination of my experiences playing and tuning Jund for the past half year.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//FC Win
1 Food Chain
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Skullmulcher
//FC Support
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Fierce Empath
1 Goblin Matron
//Beats Win
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Shared Animosity
1 Coat of Arms
//Disruption
1 Null Rod
1 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Choke
1 Destructive Flow
1 Boil
1 Ruination
1 Stranglehold
//Answers
1 Mogg Salvage
1 Snuff Out
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vandalblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Fire Covenant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Phyrexian Arena
//Regrowth
1 Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness
//Tutors
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Shred Memory
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Grim Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Explore
1 Three Visits
1 Nature's Lore
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
8 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
The inspiration for this deck is none other than experience. What can Jund do to a competitive environment that no other UGx, UBx, or 5C deck can? The answer is attacking mana. Blood Moon / Ruination effects are powerful against a vast majority of the upper echelon. Choke and Boil are brutal answers to the strongest competitive archetypes as well. What else can Jund do? Pack efficient answers. I don't think there are many other color combinations that can boast such a flexible arsenal - multi-target spells, instant-speed vindicate, blue hate, and other hyper-efficient spot removal. So basically, why rush to the win when you can grind the game out first?
The primary win still revolves around FCP. However, this deck reverses the need for speed and borrows time through virtual card advantage gained with land hate. Only the best instant-value, heavy-costed creatures have been selected to support the FC win, and I'm liking the deck with a significantly less number of "dud" cards.
The secondary win takes a big back seat, but is a threatening presence in a drawn-out game. Oftentimes while playing Blitz Combo FCP, I might draw into too much mana and actually just be able to cast Prossh with no real way to abuse it. Now drawn out games will also have an out for me through 1-2 shotting players while they struggle beneath the hate.
I think this might be the next evolution for competitive Prossh for me.
EDIT:
Newer list with Null Rod and Coat of Arms.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Won 2 games out of 5, which is solid for me. The games I lost were based on slow hands (lacking tutors) or an opponent using sweepers.
In my attempts to make the deck less susceptible to sweepers, I've started cutting some of the slower mana dorks. I've also removed Duress and Thoughtseize due to the fact that there is usually more than one blue player at the table. I honestly should be playing Choke and Boil, but they like to mix up their decks from time to time - I figured playing Ricochet Trap might be fine instead.
I also fished some hands with Ad Nauseam. Card is an absolute BEAST in this deck. I almost think that if you open a slower hand, you should definitely shoot for it as the secondary plan. I'm also going to try Plunge Into Darkness, which is pretty much a 2CMC hard tutor in this deck.
Deck is getting really close with these changes. I wish I had more 1 CMC mana dorks or utility creatures. Any suggestions here would be great!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Thanks bud! Yep, I've added just about all of the best R/G 1cmc anti-blue spells. They've been working out great.
Yup Ad Nauseam has been great. I'm not 100% on Plunge. It's been strong but not as insane as I thought it would be. Unfortunately I'm running out of good tutors to play. I don't really like Shred Memory either.
This deck isn't a primer because of two reasons. The first is that it's a bit narrow - only specific metagames would allow a deck like this, and because interest for this deck has been lukewarm at best, I decided not to push it too much further.
Regarding getting Food Chain countered and/or destroyed - it has happened a handful of times in all of my games. I think of those games, I was able to come back about half the team. People underestimate the raw power of the deck. Untapping to cast Eternal Witness let's you go right back into infinite mode. In fact, Regrowth effects are so strong for this play that I'm considering running Noxious Revival.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain