On my conquest to build the most competitive Prossh list, I've probably crafted a dozen different lists outlining just as many different strategies. What began as a dumb beatdown deck quickly evolved into a combo list. The issue with both archetypes is that they required many moving pieces to execute a table kill. Aggro could 1-shot players at the cost of leaving yourself vulnerable to two others; other combos simply required 3-4 cards (looking at Phyrexian Altar and friends), a complete chore to assemble without the help of blue. What then is the most efficient use of Prossh?
Food Chain: Speed, Compactness, and Redundancy
Synergistic Speed
This could almost be called Food Chain Elves. When first designing the deck, the majority of ramp was defaulted to artifacts since they come out the quickest. Ideas from Wildfire and Donald yielded that a mini Elf-ball / free creature package might be useful. It was then Wildfire that pointed out that mana elves could be consumed by FC, resulting in a deck full of super pseudo "Dark Rituals". This was the final nail in the coffin that put FC Prossh ahead of competing decklists. This deck boasts an average consistent turn 3-4 kill in a vacuum, and an occasional T2 kill. Thanks to the fact that dorks can be consumed by Food Chain, Prossh's expensive CMC is trivailized.
Combo Compactness
Of all combos available to Prossh, this is by far the most compact. Some try to run other combos, like Kiki-Crafter, Tooth, or the pair of Altars, but all of them require an excessive amount of cards.
Most of you are familiar with this two-card combo involving Prossh, but for those of you who aren't, here's how it works. With Food Chain and Prossh (with his 6 tokens) in play, remove Prossh with FC adding 7 mana. Then, remove two tokens, adding 2 of the remaining colors to cast Prossh, resulting in a total of 9 mana. This lets you recast Prossh while you still have 4 tokens in play. Those tokens can be translated into a net of +5 mana. With the second cast of Prossh, you now have 12 tokens, so you remove Prossh again to add 7, then 3 tokens to reach 10 for the recast of Prossh, and so on. The result is infinite creatures and infinite mana to use on creature spells only.
Finisher Redundancy
So you have FC and Prossh, but that doesn't end the game by itself. What does? Thankfully, Prossh is a multi-faceted, creature-combo triggering machine. A thorough search through Gatherer for "whenever a creature dies", "whenever a creature enters the battlefield", and "Devour" yielded a healthy number of outlets in which to take out your opponents with. It's not unlike Worldgorger Dragon / Animate Dead combos with Ambassador Laquatus or Shivan Hellkite. Because Prossh enables so many different triggers, we can fill ~10+ slots with creatures that instantly wipe out the table. Because you have infinite mana, the casting costs of the creatures DO NOT MATTER. This allows us to maximize in the redundancy department.
Some other great options, such as Goblin Bombardment and Blasting Station, were omitted for the sole reason that they are not creatures. When trying to optimize the list, I found that being able to cast a win condition off of Food Chain and using the prior turns to ramp/tutor properly were more important. Keeping mana tight can allow you to go off a turn earlier in a vacuum or a turn later with protection instead of needing the extra mana to play a non-creature win condition. Also, this list used to run more death trigger cards such as Blood Artist, but those were cut in favor of methods of victory that are impervious to spot removal. Big thanks to psly4mne!
FCP's Mojo
What makes this deck tick? The answer is the over-saturation of creatures. Because the list runs all relevant cantrip, tutor, and cheat creatures, by the time Food Chain is cast, you will already have both the mana and the win condition to go off. FC shouldn't only be seen as a tool to create infinite tokens, mana, and triggers with Prossh, it should be seen as an extremely potent mana acceleration engine before the combo even hits the table.
Pay attention to the "FC Support" section in the decklist, as you may be surprised to find all sorts of hidden interactions that really make this deck both well-oiled and unique.
Selecting the strongest and least expensive spells is crucial to maintaining the speed of the deck. If anyone has any better ideas, please let me know!
I can't take full credit, since much of it belongs to a conversation spawned between Wildfire and myself a month or two ago. So a big thanks to Wildfire for designing the prototype to this list and moxnix for helping me optimize. Prossh is a blast to play, and the reason I didn't pursue it further in the past was because I figured it was too fragile. After tuning, it looks to be highly consistent and quite speedy with its kills. I hope you guys have fun with it and can contribute any new ideas towards optimization!
Coming Soon
After I test the deck more thoroughly, I will be updating here with specific lines of play regarding difficult matchups. If this thread garners more attention, I'll put some more detailed card analysis as well.
Food Chain does not work with "whenever a creature dies"-triggers, because they never hit the graveyard when they are exiled.
It would work with "whenever a creature leaves the battlefield"-triggers, but i guess there are no relevant cards.
once he makes infinite tokens he can trigger those abilities by sacrificing them to prossh
why not Craterhoof behemoth as another win condition?
Exactly, RyanXXXX. I probably should have outlined the combo processes in the opening post, but just so other people don't have similar questions:
ETB Triggers: go infinite, play ETB creature with mana, exile Prossh with FC and recast him, triggering infinite damage.
Leave Battlefield Triggers: go infinite, play LTB creature, sacrifice all tokens to trigger LTB effect.
As for Craterhoof Behemoth, he was in the original list but the problem is that tokens don't have haste, so the pumped damage would do nothing. Every win condition in here can be used the turn it is played using the FC infinite.
While sampling hands, I noticed that colored mana is always better than colorless mana. Also, creatures >>> artifacts due to the interaction with FC. Browsing Gatherer, I concluded that the 3CMC elves were worth playing since they add +2 for 3, leading to turn 4 wins. I'm also trying Priest of Titania because I realized the deck boasts 13 elves! I'm willing to pay 2CMC in the decent off-chance I can produce GG with her next turn. So basically the rule is: if it produces +1 mana @1CMC consistently, play it; if it produces +2 mana @3CMC consistently, play it. I also play all of the 3CMC land-fetchers, since they fix. Got rid of Yavimaya Dryad cause of the sometimes awkward GG mana cost.
You might also be asking why I don't play the 2CMC fixing creatures. There are two reasons. The first is that it conflicts with the tutor turn. Generally turn 2 is spent finding Food Chain or setting up defense. The second is that when used with FC, they'll be +1 -> RFG +2, meaning +3 mana. It's not enough mana to boost out a turn 3 win anyways, so why bother? 3CMC with +2 means +5 mana in total, leading to a potentially protected turn 4 win. Much more sense on the curve.
These changes also make Survival of the Fittest much more appealing. I was originally going to cut the card but I can very much support a powerful Survival turn: ie. green mana ramp, double pitch survival for Dosan the Falling Leaf and a finisher.
Exotic Orchard has a tendency to be inconsistent for me, especially when I'm trying to play the early game. Tarnish Citadel is fine, but I needed to cut one land for another basic (for Farhaven Elf) and this was the worst of the prismatic lands. May come back in over Grove of the Burnwillows if I feel I need more black sources.
Neat deck! I love the combo, though it looks like finding Food Chain is going to be the weak point. Have you found that you can reliably find it? You might want to try Dimir Machinations, Beseech the Queen and Doomsday for extra tutoring. Shred Memory could also help to Transmute for Demonic Tutor, but that is more of a borderline option.
10 kill conditions once you have the combo seems like it might be too much. You might want to reduce that and add Glimpse of Nature too. Glimpse can draw your deck and find a kill once you go off, or it can draw a few cards while you're setting up. If you have Food Chain and need to build of mana for Prossh, Glimpse should let you chain some creatures for mana.
With 7 fetches and 5 natural Forests, you might be able to take advantage of Rofellos and Arbor Elf. They could be dead cards on occasion, but I would say they're worth testing. Fierce Empath should probably take up one of your kill slots. It searches up Prossh if he gets Hindered or something, it fuels Priest/Archdruid/Cradle, pitches to Food Chain during setup, and lets Elvish Herbinger find a kill. Rune-Scarred Demon will also find kills for you, though it's not as useful in the setup stage.
One nice thing about the core combo is that it ignores creature removal. You might want to tune your kill slots to do the same. Of your current kills, Ogre Battledriver is the only one that loses to a single removal, so I would start by cutting that. Chancellor of the Forge, Extractor Demon, Skullmulcher, and Purphoros (and Fierce Empath are not affected by removal, so those are good. Imperial Recruiter for Fierce Empath, while a little roundabout, also gets around removal. Goblin Bushwacker could also be a good kill (but beware of Runed Halo naming Kobolds of Kher Keep!). Blood Artist and the other creatures with death triggers lose to a pair of removal spells (kill the Prossh in response to Blood Artist, then kill Blood Artist in response to replaying Prossh), so those are less ideal. EDIT: Deathforge Shaman doesn't even lose to instant sweepers. That probably makes it your best kill option in a 2 player game. A tutor chain of Imperial Recruiter -> Fierce Empath -> Rune-Scarred Demon -> Deathforge Shaman would be the most awesome way to win, and that would win through any amount of creature removal or sweepers.
Just some ideas to try out, that ended up way longer than I thought it would.
I mentioned in my intro post that both Blasting Station and Goblin Bombardment are non-creatures, and therefore inferior to creature counterparts. In a deck where we actually have TOO many win conditions, these can be safely cut for efficiency's sake.
Neat deck! I love the combo, though it looks like finding Food Chain is going to be the weak point. Have you found that you can reliably find it? You might want to try Dimir Machinations, Beseech the Queen and Doomsday for extra tutoring. Shred Memory could also help to Transmute for Demonic Tutor, but that is more of a borderline option.
10 kill conditions once you have the combo seems like it might be too much. You might want to reduce that and add Glimpse of Nature too. Glimpse can draw your deck and find a kill once you go off, or it can draw a few cards while you're setting up. If you have Food Chain and need to build of mana for Prossh, Glimpse should let you chain some creatures for mana.
With 7 fetches and 5 natural Forests, you might be able to take advantage of Rofellos and Arbor Elf. They could be dead cards on occasion, but I would say they're worth testing. Fierce Empath should probably take up one of your kill slots. It searches up Prossh if he gets Hindered or something, it fuels Priest/Archdruid/Cradle, pitches to Food Chain during setup, and lets Elvish Herbinger find a kill. Rune-Scarred Demon will also find kills for you, though it's not as useful in the setup stage.
One nice thing about the core combo is that it ignores creature removal. You might want to tune your kill slots to do the same. Of your current kills, Ogre Battledriver is the only one that loses to a single removal, so I would start by cutting that. Chancellor of the Forge, Extractor Demon, Skullmulcher, and Purphoros (and Fierce Empath are not affected by removal, so those are good. Imperial Recruiter for Fierce Empath, while a little roundabout, also gets around removal. Goblin Bushwacker could also be a good kill (but beware of Runed Halo naming Kobolds of Kher Keep!). Blood Artist and the other creatures with death triggers lose to a pair of removal spells (kill the Prossh in response to Blood Artist, then kill Blood Artist in response to replaying Prossh), so those are less ideal. EDIT: Deathforge Shaman doesn't even lose to instant sweepers. That probably makes it your best kill option in a 2 player game. A tutor chain of Imperial Recruiter -> Fierce Empath -> Rune-Scarred Demon -> Deathforge Shaman would be the most awesome way to win, and that would win through any amount of creature removal or sweepers.
Just some ideas to try out, that ended up way longer than I thought it would.
Wow! This is incredible feedback.
I've been playing around with all of these ideas since I started the deck - how do I make it less vulnerable to spot removal? Instead of going over-redundant on sub-optimal pieces, why not play creature tutors that also count towards the FC ramp?! Genius. I was actually messing around with Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask last night, because I realized the value of having bodies to feed. The inclusion of Fierce Empath, Imperial Recruiter, and Rune-Scarred Demon let me play only the best finishers.
I'm also going to add in Glimpse of Nature and Goblin Bushwhacker as more optimal win conditions. Dimir Machinations is probably the only other tutor I would add in due to BBB being slightly difficult to cast. I'm also adding in Arbor Elf and cutting Farhaven Elf. Will update this post once I put in the changes. Thanks a ton!
This package enhances Food Chain by a great deal while increasing resilience to spot removal through creature-based tutor chains and ramp. Adding in cards like Recruiter and Machinations also help me have more ways to find Dosan, so I cut the situational Avoid Fate. Again, excellent suggestions! Will update OP now.
I mentioned in my intro post that both Blasting Station and Goblin Bombardment are non-creatures, and therefore inferior to creature counterparts. In a deck where we actually have TOO many win conditions, these can be safely cut for efficiency's sake.
My apologies, I read the thread and must have missed it, and then did a search for Blasting Station which came up with no results, so the search function must have bugged out on me.
How fast do you find the deck to be? If you're finding yourself regularly hitting 4 mana with ease you could look at Nullmage Shepherd as another addition to your answer suite, as it can be incredible in creature-heavy and token-heavy decks such as this.
No worries!
The deck, in a vacuum, boasts a fairly consistent turn 4-6 kill. Nullmage Shepherd is strong, although I don't expect to face too many problem artifacts / enchantments outside of maybe Pithing Needle.
Dude, dat mana base!! I take it you never run into Back to Basics or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon?! Also, adding more basics in favor of the unneccessary non-basics would allow for quality ramp spells like Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation, Ranger's Path, Hunting Wilds, Cultivate, and Kodama's Reach. The find forest spells work with the duals, but would too often be a dead draw for you, I think. Anyway, including ramp that is resilient to board wipes is very important for being reslient and not crapping out if plan A fails.
Er, I don't mean for this comment to come across as aggressive or anything. This is a really cool deck list, I like the idea, and Food Chain is on the want list for my Prossh deck as well (my only copy is in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck and certainly not leaving it). I think perhaps a little more focus could be put on other avenues of victory, because Prossh alone is a very good win con, and jund offers us a lot of good cards to play with. In my experience dedicating all of our resources to plan A makes for a glass-cannon deck that is explosive, but more often than not will get hated out against experienced players. Going 60-40 or 70-30 in terms of focusing on Plan A vs. versatility of win cons and answer cards allows for typically a higher success rate, as the explosive nature is always there, but it doesn't fold against targeted hate or a bad start.
Edit: As for actual suggestions with the mana base, I would personally cut all three check lands, all three filter lands, all three pain lands, City of Brass, Forbidden Orchard, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in favor of basics. And one NBL that I like that is not in your list is Phyrexian Tower.
The big thing I don't like about Urborg is that you don't play a lot of ways to efficiently tutor for it (not fun to bust a Demonic Tutor to snag a utility land), and it helps Cabal Coffers decks too darn much!
Dude, dat mana base!! I take it you never run into Back to Basics or Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon?! Also, adding more basics in favor of the unneccessary non-basics would allow for quality ramp spells like Skyshroud Claim, Explosive Vegetation, Ranger's Path, Hunting Wilds, Cultivate, and Kodama's Reach. The find forest spells work with the duals, but would too often be a dead draw for you, I think. Anyway, including ramp that is resilient to board wipes is very important for being reslient and not crapping out if plan A fails.
Er, I don't mean for this comment to come across as aggressive or anything. This is a really cool deck list, I like the idea, and Food Chain is on the want list for my Prossh deck as well (my only copy is in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck and certainly not leaving it). I think perhaps a little more focus could be put on other avenues of victory, because Prossh alone is a very good win con, and jund offers us a lot of good cards to play with. In my experience dedicating all of our resources to plan A makes for a glass-cannon deck that is explosive, but more often than not will get hated out against experienced players. Going 60-40 or 70-30 in terms of focusing on Plan A vs. versatility of win cons and answer cards allows for typically a higher success rate, as the explosive nature is always there, but it doesn't fold against targeted hate or a bad start.
Edit: As for actual suggestions with the mana base, I would personally cut all three check lands, all three filter lands, all three pain lands, City of Brass, Forbidden Orchard, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in favor of basics. And one NBL that I like that is not in your list is Phyrexian Tower.
The big thing I don't like about Urborg is that you don't play a lot of ways to efficiently tutor for it (not fun to bust a Demonic Tutor to snag a utility land), and it helps Cabal Coffers decks too darn much!
Hey bud, thanks for stopping by.
About the Plan A and Plan B thing, I've tried a bunch of variants of Prossh. They're all decent, but not having access to blue really hurts the deck in a competitive metagame. Filling the deck with aggro enablers like Beastmaster Ascension or weird combo pieces like Ashnod's Altar make for an unfocused plan. I've then decided that it was just best to go for Food Chain every game, and that's what I ended up doing. The ramp being resilient to board wipes is not a big deal - this deck doesn't really need THAT much ramp to win, just 1-2 guys on the field. If they get wiped, it's not a big deal either, since I tend to see creatures as being mini-dark rituals once FC out. I run such a density that this shouldn't be a problem (and most people only run 1-2 board wipes where I play).
I actually did not test this list at first because I thought it was "glass-canon"-ish. But after moxnix took a stab at the deck, he helped me tune it. If you're up against hate, it's not too hard to try and create a shield with cards like Dosan the Falling Leaf or Boil, forcing blue players to react accordingly.
On the note of the ramp - the whole point of running a slew of mana dorks is to feed the big Food Chain turn. Those ramp spells you mentioned technically aren't even more efficient unless you're going for big spells (which this deck is not). For example, Skyshround Claim is 4 for +2, while Fyndhorn Elder is 3 for +2, granting a turn 4 kill with protection (Elder + 4 lands = 6 mana, -3 for FC, exile Elder for +4, leading to 7 mana floating, cast Prossh, hold REB). That's an example with just a 3 drop, not including any broken accelerants. Consistency is what makes this deck special, I feel.
Perhaps if you could detail which other gameplans for Prossh you think are good, that'd be a place to start discussion. As mentioned in the OP though, I've perhaps scoured every single possible set of win conditions and found this to be the most competitive in terms of a combo build.
I'm actually semi-resilient to Blood Moon BECAUSE I run so many dorks. I do understand that I am susceptible to such effects, but I don't think breaking up the mana base and losing out on Tainted Pact is worth "potentially" losing to non-basic hate. Phyrexian Tower is pretty good, and I might run it again, but I was trying to cut out all of the non-essential lands to make sure I can maintain proper color balance (which this deck sort of doesn't right now), while being able to run the very powerful Tainted Pact.
EDIT:
I anticipate a lot of blue decks will show up at my new meta, or at least one player who is playing mono blue. I'm not worried about instant-speed enchantment removal, and now the deck is nearly impervious to creature removal, so I might want to add in some more hate cards like Choke or even Curse of Marit Lage or Omen of Fire. The latter two might be high on the curve, but I'm liking Choke and Omen as ways to force other players' hands.
I actually take back what I said about the checklands. I think the filter lands are still fairly important, but I could ditch a the three checklands for basics / snow-covered basics. Nothing is worse than drawing into a tapped land when you're trying to curve out.
Updated list. After testing about 100 or so sample hands and discussion with a few friends, I was faced with an interesting question. This list can move in one of two directions: slow it down, play some more answers, some more threats; or I can speed it up. I chose to speed it up with the inclusion of Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix, Priest of Urabrask and Chrome Mox. I noticed that sometimes the 3CMC mana dudes were cumbersome - I just wanted more mana right then and there. These guys that are essentially cast for "free" equate to 0 mana rituals in conjunction with Food Chain. Absolutely nuts in the speed department. Chrome Mox is more self-explanatory, but just so it's clear, I often have cards in hand to pitch since this list moves so quickly. It's also another colored mana source to help cast Prossh off of Food Chain (which has been an issue at times). I removed Graven Cairns for Tarnish Citadel because it did not produce green mana.
Added Beast Within because there are times when I have a turn open and I need to interact with an opposing annoying card (ie. a GAAIV player in my meta). Took out Skullclamp cause I never wanted to eat my mana dorks. Eternal Witness is a great way to answer enchantment hate. Lastly, I changed Rune-Scarred Demon to Goblin Matron solely because Matron can be cast and used for Food Chain fodder the next turn. These creatures, like the Priests, are important to the greater picture by doubling as ramp.
Changes look pretty good. Good thought on Goblin Matron. If you're trying to speed your deck up, you might try to find room for Orcish Lumberjack. It requires a red source and a forest, but it ramps like crazy. You could also run Summoner's Pact to find Burning-Tree Emissary, Fierce Empath, Eternal Witness, or a stray Prossh for your combo turn. It's a risky play, but with your ramp, you will sometimes be able to pay the cost if something goes wrong. Lion's Eye Diamond is also a total all-in card, and doesn't play well with REB, but it produces 3 mana that can be spent on Prossh or a tutored Food Chain, which will often speed you up a turn.
What do you generally use Chord of Calling for? I don't really see the situation where it's useful. It's pretty expensive pre-combo, and requires two extra green creatures or mana post-combo.
How has Elvish Harbinger been performing? I see the benefit of it, but it seems like needing to cast it before your combo turn could hurt.
Is Somberwald Sage better than Nantuko Elder? It produces more mana, but neither can tap+exile to cast Prossh alone, and the Elder can help tutor and cast FC.
Changes look pretty good. Good thought on Goblin Matron. If you're trying to speed your deck up, you might try to find room for Orcish Lumberjack. It requires a red source and a forest, but it ramps like crazy. You could also run Summoner's Pact to find Burning-Tree Emissary, Fierce Empath, Eternal Witness, or a stray Prossh for your combo turn. It's a risky play, but with your ramp, you will sometimes be able to pay the cost if something goes wrong. Lion's Eye Diamond is also a total all-in card, and doesn't play well with REB, but it produces 3 mana that can be spent on Prossh or a tutored Food Chain, which will often speed you up a turn.
What do you generally use Chord of Calling for? I don't really see the situation where it's useful. It's pretty expensive pre-combo, and requires two extra green creatures or mana post-combo.
How has Elvish Harbinger been performing? I see the benefit of it, but it seems like needing to cast it before your combo turn could hurt.
Is Somberwald Sage better than Nantuko Elder? It produces more mana, but neither can tap+exile to cast Prossh alone, and the Elder can help tutor and cast FC.
Excellent feedback again!
I'll be honest and say that I have not played this list a whole lot in actual practice yet. I got 2 games in the other night but that was it, and that's really not a fair sample size to see how this deck performs in different scenarios.
@Orcish Lumberjack
Trust me when I say I want to play this card real bad. I glanced over it many times and I just can't bring myself to play it yet. The potential inconsistencies with it really bug me. I guess it's not that much different than playing Arbor Elf though. I guess I'll give it a shot lol.
@Summoner's Pact / Chord of Calling
You know what, Chord is a legacy tutor from earlier iterations of the deck. You're probably right in that it should be cut. Summoner's Pact seems like the more optimal card anyways. Thanks for pointing this out. On that note Survival of the Fittest is starting to look less and less appealing. I rarely want to go out of my way for a creature tutor. Perhaps Rune-Scarred Demon could take this guy's place again lol.
@LED
I don't think it's for this deck.
@Somberwald Sage / Nantuko Elder / Elvish Harbinger
All of these are on the cut list. Having too many rampers at the 3CMC slot is kinda harsh if you don't have a 1-drop to go with it. I would have to say that they're pretty necessary to speed up FC, but I think running 4 of them is too many. I think going down to 2 might help smooth things out. I'll play the Lumberjack in Somberwald's place and play another threat/answer in place of the other.
I want to ask people how they would best tackle the removal / countermagic issue. I'm going to be playing in a new metagame with lots of blue, so I think that I should dedicate at least another 1-2 slot towards blue hate. I think I'm already running the best cards, but adding in an Omen of Fire or Guttural Response. I would rather force my opponents hand through spells that inhibit their gameplay so that I can distract them from my game-winning combos. This deck could totally afford to wait for an opportune moment to cast Omen or Boil on an opponents' turn. Adding in 1-2 spot removal would be okay too. Ideas?
EDIT:
OP updated with changes. Added Omen of Fire, Diabolic Tutor, and Nantuko Elder. Diabolic is a necessary evil. Fishing these hands, the 4CMC isn't too bad of a drawback considering the absurd amount of ramp in this deck. I ended up cutting Survival of the Fittest as a result; I really don't need creature tutors in this deck except Summoner's Pact, which looks insane here. As mentioned before, I play in a blue-heavy meta. Generally 2-3 players at the table will be running blue, and I see this is as a great opportunity to try and force their hand outside of my own turn.
Forgive me if you've answered this question in previous comments, but what happens if you lose Food Chain to Krosan Grip, Return to Dust or something crazy like, say, turn 1 Dark Ritual into Praetor's Grasp?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH: B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern: WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
if you weren't playing in a heavy blue meta, what cards would you substitute? Still keep the City of Solitude and Dosan?
If I wasn't playing in a heavy blue meta, then I would probably just play more ramp and more tutors in those slots. Or it really depends on what you're up against. Avoid Fate is still a decent card against spot removal. You could play Survival of the Fittest and try running a little Squee, Goblin Nabob value engine. If you're up against other combo decks, you might want to include removal that can deal with whatever they're playing. Jund has an excellent removal suite; it's a shame that this deck really doesn't have the time or resources to be blowing up other peoples' stuff. It might be useful if you could tell me what types of decks you're expecting.
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The more I sample hands, the more I'm liking the idea of going extremely creature-heavy. The more I play this deck, the more it starts to feel and look like some deformed version of Animar. I'm looking for utility, card parity, and disruption in the form of 1/2 drops. So far, I'm liking things like Elvish Visionary, Sylvan Ranger....maybe even Wall of Blossoms and Goblin Recruiter. Anything to get my FC mana online an more consistently.
That all sounds good omen of fire is not boil it's bad you should have already had carpet oversight
Lotus cobra same deal should have been thier already
Orchish lumberjack hmm I guess that's pretty good not sure about that
Draw dork seems fine
About cutting mox Diamond if it's the right choice that's probly bad. That being said it normally means your not refilling your hand which is not bad but it's not good
So suggestion number 1 in line with your dudes theme and from what your experience with mox Diamond tells me run Dark Confidant.
That all sounds good omen of fire is not boil it's bad you should have already had carpet oversight
Lotus cobra same deal should have been thier already
Orchish lumberjack hmm I guess that's pretty good not sure about that
Draw dork seems fine
About cutting mox Diamond if it's the right choice that's probly bad. That being said it normally means your not refilling your hand which is not bad but it's not good
So suggestion number 1 in line with your dudes theme and from what your experience with mox Diamond tells me run Dark Confidant.
Always a pleasure when you stop by.
Yes, this deck doesn't refill often; stuck in Jund colors. What I try to make up for in lack of sculpting is an increase in redundancy, ie running 10 ways to fetch a win condition and 10 ways to fetch Food Chain. Sample hands have been playing out fairly consistently. Maybe 1 in 10 hands leads to nothing, which is perfectly fine with me. I'd say 1 in 5 hands results in a turn 3 win, and 2 in 5 hands results in a turn 4 win, and another 2 in 5 results in turn 5+ win (usually involves setup with Dosan or Boil). This is based off a pretty small sample size (like 50 hands?), so your numbers may be different, but they've been very good for me.
Orcish Lumberjack is a test slot. I think that it's a moderate risk that has the potential to pay extremely high dividends. It would be a crime if I didn't at least try it out.
Chrome Mox was just not working for me. It's okay, but I'd almost rather run Elvish Spirit Guide or Simian Spirit Guide. Mox Diamond may come back in if I increase my draw a little bit, but this deck really wants to make its land drops.
I know it's that fast I did quite a few hands. Ranger is good so is wall of blossoms and dark confidant and at that point you dont want to cut mox Diamond anymore it's good again yea . Let's compare wall of blossoms to nights whisper if we are casting either card turn 1 or 2 off a turn 0 rock like Diamond or behind a turn 1 dork whisper gets you back on 7 where the draw dork puts you on 6. In a normal deck nights whisper is the obvious choice but your like a reverse edric that body is a dark ritual on board. With enough tutors to get chain the extra card rarley matters in fact you have a card it's just in board and it's called DARK RITUAL! Now to continue on my why mox Diamond being bad makes things easy to fix. I notice you dint run wood elves it's because it cost 3 and if your kidding land drops pooping it into play isn't worth the difference between ranger and wood elves. Also your body's are DARK RITS. So this changes nothing about making land drops essential to a fast combo why run forest when you can run sylvan ranger verdict good card! Now as for cuts this brings me back to lumber jack he kills you land bro and you already have dark RITS on board and now this slot is mox Diamond because it trashes it again you can find the other cuts ;).
What do you do if someone krosan grips or nature's claims your food chain? return to dust? I understand that the idea is to ramp and toot into FC as soon as possible, and hopefully throw up a defense grid-style card before you go off, but it doesn't seem like your list has an answer for that. Just having some recursion, IMO, is less efficient than including another combo option and a couple cards that you could use to one-shot someone after something like that happens and the game extends further than you want it to.
I know it's that fast I did quite a few hands. Ranger is good so is wall of blossoms and dark confidant and at that point you dont want to cut mox Diamond anymore it's good again yea . Let's compare wall of blossoms to nights whisper if we are casting either card turn 1 or 2 off a turn 0 rock like Diamond or behind a turn 1 dork whisper gets you back on 7 where the draw dork puts you on 6. In a normal deck nights whisper is the obvious choice but your like a reverse edric that body is a dark ritual on board. With enough tutors to get chain the extra card rarley matters in fact you have a card it's just in board and it's called DARK RITUAL! Now to continue on my why mox Diamond being bad makes things easy to fix. I notice you dint run wood elves it's because it cost 3 and if your kidding land drops pooping it into play isn't worth the difference between ranger and wood elves. Also your body's are DARK RITS. So this changes nothing about making land drops essential to a fast combo why run forest when you can run sylvan ranger verdict good card! Now as for cuts this brings me back to lumber jack he kills you land bro and you already have dark RITS on board and now this slot is mox Diamond because it trashes it again you can find the other cuts ;).
Agreed on all points. Thanks again for the feedback!
What do you do if someone krosan grips or nature's claims your food chain? return to dust? I understand that the idea is to ramp and toot into FC as soon as possible, and hopefully throw up a defense grid-style card before you go off, but it doesn't seem like your list has an answer for that. Just having some recursion, IMO, is less efficient than including another combo option and a couple cards that you could use to one-shot someone after something like that happens and the game extends further than you want it to.
Yup. This deck folds to instant-speed enchantment removal. Regrowth effects aren't great, but I haven't found the solution to this problem either. My goal was to just go faster, and fold if they have it. I could try and run more defensive cards like Xantid Swarm or Avoid Fate, but I think that's a losing strategy. The matter of the fact is, you're going to lose those games where they have an answer.
Now I wouldn't mind opening the deck up to other avenues of attack, but the question begs an answer that no one has been able to give me. What other plan does Prossh have that is as brutal as this one? As mentioned in the OP, I've tried just about every avenue of attack, and they're all inefficient and clunky. If you could suggest to me another plan of attack that doesn't require overhauling the list, then I am definitely open to suggestions. The goodstuff Jund lists that I see are great for maybe killing one player at a time, but in a competitive meta that just isn't enough to keep up on a consistent basis. From my perspective, you can either go aggro Prossh or combo Prossh. Aggro consists of generally 1-shotting one to two players, but costs just as many resources and tutors as going for a combo. The other combos are all unfocused and just as easy to stop with well-timed removal. Isn't the best answer just to run some hate and try to go as fast as possible?
I don't mean this in a defensive "no I won't change my deck because your opinion sucks". I am legitimately looking for a way to either bolster resilience or find another efficient angle of attack. Any suggestions here would be great.
Great deck! Seems like a ton of fun, and really strong. Real quick, why Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation? I mean, I guess you could use more tutors, but why those as opposed to other options, such as Beseech the Queen, Demonic Collusion, or even Signal the Clans? Not meaning to be rude or anything here, I just suck at wording posts >.<
I see what you're saying about clunky combos and whatnot, but I think you should run both altars (or phyrexian altar and mana echoes maybe). They're the best substitute for food chain, and your deck (like mine) is stuffed full of finishers. It's two cards as opposed to one, but still extremely potent. I'd also run at least one copy of either psychotic fury, tainted strike, maybe assault strobe. I know you don't want to water down your deck, but you could substitute 4 cards max and make your deck at least a little more resilient to defensive removal.
On my conquest to build the most competitive Prossh list, I've probably crafted a dozen different lists outlining just as many different strategies. What began as a dumb beatdown deck quickly evolved into a combo list. The issue with both archetypes is that they required many moving pieces to execute a table kill. Aggro could 1-shot players at the cost of leaving yourself vulnerable to two others; other combos simply required 3-4 cards (looking at Phyrexian Altar and friends), a complete chore to assemble without the help of blue. What then is the most efficient use of Prossh?
Decklist
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Food Chain Kill Package
1 Food Chain
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Food Chain Support Package
1 Flamekin Harbinger
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Goblin Matron
1 Fierce Empath
1 Skullmulcher
//Tutors
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gamble
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Divining Witch
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Shred Memory
1 Dimir Machinations
//Card Quality
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness
//Answers & Protection
1 Nature's Claim
1 Snuff Out
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Guttural Response
1 Autumn's Veil
//Feed Chain Ramp
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Sentinel
1 Akki Rockspeaker
1 Burning-Tree Emissary
1 Wood Elves
1 Priest of Gix
1 Priest of Urabrask
//Ramp
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
1 Arbor Elf
1 Orcish Lumberjack
//Cheating Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Twilight Mire
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Copperline Gorge
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
Final Notes
I can't take full credit, since much of it belongs to a conversation spawned between Wildfire and myself a month or two ago. So a big thanks to Wildfire for designing the prototype to this list and moxnix for helping me optimize. Prossh is a blast to play, and the reason I didn't pursue it further in the past was because I figured it was too fragile. After tuning, it looks to be highly consistent and quite speedy with its kills. I hope you guys have fun with it and can contribute any new ideas towards optimization!
Coming Soon
After I test the deck more thoroughly, I will be updating here with specific lines of play regarding difficult matchups. If this thread garners more attention, I'll put some more detailed card analysis as well.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It would work with "whenever a creature leaves the battlefield"-triggers, but i guess there are no relevant cards.
more information: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/308812-exile-and-dies-triggered-abilities
why not Craterhoof behemoth as another win condition?
Exactly, RyanXXXX. I probably should have outlined the combo processes in the opening post, but just so other people don't have similar questions:
ETB Triggers: go infinite, play ETB creature with mana, exile Prossh with FC and recast him, triggering infinite damage.
Leave Battlefield Triggers: go infinite, play LTB creature, sacrifice all tokens to trigger LTB effect.
As for Craterhoof Behemoth, he was in the original list but the problem is that tokens don't have haste, so the pumped damage would do nothing. Every win condition in here can be used the turn it is played using the FC infinite.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Thx boss. Appreciate the aid in tuning the list. Your affirmation helped find the diamond in the rough.
Goblin Sharpshooter was in the first few drafts of the deck till I realized that it also lacked the ability to kill without haste
The list of potential finishers that weren't included:
I might have forgotten some but those were all pretty early cuts.
EDIT:
Updated the decklist slightly. Looked at revising my mana and made the following changes:
While sampling hands, I noticed that colored mana is always better than colorless mana. Also, creatures >>> artifacts due to the interaction with FC. Browsing Gatherer, I concluded that the 3CMC elves were worth playing since they add +2 for 3, leading to turn 4 wins. I'm also trying Priest of Titania because I realized the deck boasts 13 elves! I'm willing to pay 2CMC in the decent off-chance I can produce GG with her next turn. So basically the rule is: if it produces +1 mana @1CMC consistently, play it; if it produces +2 mana @3CMC consistently, play it. I also play all of the 3CMC land-fetchers, since they fix. Got rid of Yavimaya Dryad cause of the sometimes awkward GG mana cost.
You might also be asking why I don't play the 2CMC fixing creatures. There are two reasons. The first is that it conflicts with the tutor turn. Generally turn 2 is spent finding Food Chain or setting up defense. The second is that when used with FC, they'll be +1 -> RFG +2, meaning +3 mana. It's not enough mana to boost out a turn 3 win anyways, so why bother? 3CMC with +2 means +5 mana in total, leading to a potentially protected turn 4 win. Much more sense on the curve.
These changes also make Survival of the Fittest much more appealing. I was originally going to cut the card but I can very much support a powerful Survival turn: ie. green mana ramp, double pitch survival for Dosan the Falling Leaf and a finisher.
Exotic Orchard has a tendency to be inconsistent for me, especially when I'm trying to play the early game. Tarnish Citadel is fine, but I needed to cut one land for another basic (for Farhaven Elf) and this was the worst of the prismatic lands. May come back in over Grove of the Burnwillows if I feel I need more black sources.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
10 kill conditions once you have the combo seems like it might be too much. You might want to reduce that and add Glimpse of Nature too. Glimpse can draw your deck and find a kill once you go off, or it can draw a few cards while you're setting up. If you have Food Chain and need to build of mana for Prossh, Glimpse should let you chain some creatures for mana.
With 7 fetches and 5 natural Forests, you might be able to take advantage of Rofellos and Arbor Elf. They could be dead cards on occasion, but I would say they're worth testing.
Fierce Empath should probably take up one of your kill slots. It searches up Prossh if he gets Hindered or something, it fuels Priest/Archdruid/Cradle, pitches to Food Chain during setup, and lets Elvish Herbinger find a kill. Rune-Scarred Demon will also find kills for you, though it's not as useful in the setup stage.
One nice thing about the core combo is that it ignores creature removal. You might want to tune your kill slots to do the same. Of your current kills, Ogre Battledriver is the only one that loses to a single removal, so I would start by cutting that. Chancellor of the Forge, Extractor Demon, Skullmulcher, and Purphoros (and Fierce Empath are not affected by removal, so those are good. Imperial Recruiter for Fierce Empath, while a little roundabout, also gets around removal. Goblin Bushwacker could also be a good kill (but beware of Runed Halo naming Kobolds of Kher Keep!). Blood Artist and the other creatures with death triggers lose to a pair of removal spells (kill the Prossh in response to Blood Artist, then kill Blood Artist in response to replaying Prossh), so those are less ideal. EDIT: Deathforge Shaman doesn't even lose to instant sweepers. That probably makes it your best kill option in a 2 player game. A tutor chain of Imperial Recruiter -> Fierce Empath -> Rune-Scarred Demon -> Deathforge Shaman would be the most awesome way to win, and that would win through any amount of creature removal or sweepers.
Just some ideas to try out, that ended up way longer than I thought it would.
I mentioned in my intro post that both Blasting Station and Goblin Bombardment are non-creatures, and therefore inferior to creature counterparts. In a deck where we actually have TOO many win conditions, these can be safely cut for efficiency's sake.
Wow! This is incredible feedback.
I've been playing around with all of these ideas since I started the deck - how do I make it less vulnerable to spot removal? Instead of going over-redundant on sub-optimal pieces, why not play creature tutors that also count towards the FC ramp?! Genius. I was actually messing around with Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask last night, because I realized the value of having bodies to feed. The inclusion of Fierce Empath, Imperial Recruiter, and Rune-Scarred Demon let me play only the best finishers.
I'm also going to add in Glimpse of Nature and Goblin Bushwhacker as more optimal win conditions. Dimir Machinations is probably the only other tutor I would add in due to BBB being slightly difficult to cast. I'm also adding in Arbor Elf and cutting Farhaven Elf. Will update this post once I put in the changes. Thanks a ton!
EDIT w/ Changelog:
This package enhances Food Chain by a great deal while increasing resilience to spot removal through creature-based tutor chains and ramp. Adding in cards like Recruiter and Machinations also help me have more ways to find Dosan, so I cut the situational Avoid Fate. Again, excellent suggestions! Will update OP now.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
No worries!
The deck, in a vacuum, boasts a fairly consistent turn 4-6 kill. Nullmage Shepherd is strong, although I don't expect to face too many problem artifacts / enchantments outside of maybe Pithing Needle.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Er, I don't mean for this comment to come across as aggressive or anything. This is a really cool deck list, I like the idea, and Food Chain is on the want list for my Prossh deck as well (my only copy is in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck and certainly not leaving it). I think perhaps a little more focus could be put on other avenues of victory, because Prossh alone is a very good win con, and jund offers us a lot of good cards to play with. In my experience dedicating all of our resources to plan A makes for a glass-cannon deck that is explosive, but more often than not will get hated out against experienced players. Going 60-40 or 70-30 in terms of focusing on Plan A vs. versatility of win cons and answer cards allows for typically a higher success rate, as the explosive nature is always there, but it doesn't fold against targeted hate or a bad start.
Edit: As for actual suggestions with the mana base, I would personally cut all three check lands, all three filter lands, all three pain lands, City of Brass, Forbidden Orchard, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in favor of basics. And one NBL that I like that is not in your list is Phyrexian Tower.
The big thing I don't like about Urborg is that you don't play a lot of ways to efficiently tutor for it (not fun to bust a Demonic Tutor to snag a utility land), and it helps Cabal Coffers decks too darn much!
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Hey bud, thanks for stopping by.
About the Plan A and Plan B thing, I've tried a bunch of variants of Prossh. They're all decent, but not having access to blue really hurts the deck in a competitive metagame. Filling the deck with aggro enablers like Beastmaster Ascension or weird combo pieces like Ashnod's Altar make for an unfocused plan. I've then decided that it was just best to go for Food Chain every game, and that's what I ended up doing. The ramp being resilient to board wipes is not a big deal - this deck doesn't really need THAT much ramp to win, just 1-2 guys on the field. If they get wiped, it's not a big deal either, since I tend to see creatures as being mini-dark rituals once FC out. I run such a density that this shouldn't be a problem (and most people only run 1-2 board wipes where I play).
I actually did not test this list at first because I thought it was "glass-canon"-ish. But after moxnix took a stab at the deck, he helped me tune it. If you're up against hate, it's not too hard to try and create a shield with cards like Dosan the Falling Leaf or Boil, forcing blue players to react accordingly.
On the note of the ramp - the whole point of running a slew of mana dorks is to feed the big Food Chain turn. Those ramp spells you mentioned technically aren't even more efficient unless you're going for big spells (which this deck is not). For example, Skyshround Claim is 4 for +2, while Fyndhorn Elder is 3 for +2, granting a turn 4 kill with protection (Elder + 4 lands = 6 mana, -3 for FC, exile Elder for +4, leading to 7 mana floating, cast Prossh, hold REB). That's an example with just a 3 drop, not including any broken accelerants. Consistency is what makes this deck special, I feel.
Perhaps if you could detail which other gameplans for Prossh you think are good, that'd be a place to start discussion. As mentioned in the OP though, I've perhaps scoured every single possible set of win conditions and found this to be the most competitive in terms of a combo build.
I'm actually semi-resilient to Blood Moon BECAUSE I run so many dorks. I do understand that I am susceptible to such effects, but I don't think breaking up the mana base and losing out on Tainted Pact is worth "potentially" losing to non-basic hate. Phyrexian Tower is pretty good, and I might run it again, but I was trying to cut out all of the non-essential lands to make sure I can maintain proper color balance (which this deck sort of doesn't right now), while being able to run the very powerful Tainted Pact.
EDIT:
I anticipate a lot of blue decks will show up at my new meta, or at least one player who is playing mono blue. I'm not worried about instant-speed enchantment removal, and now the deck is nearly impervious to creature removal, so I might want to add in some more hate cards like Choke or even Curse of Marit Lage or Omen of Fire. The latter two might be high on the curve, but I'm liking Choke and Omen as ways to force other players' hands.
I actually take back what I said about the checklands. I think the filter lands are still fairly important, but I could ditch a the three checklands for basics / snow-covered basics. Nothing is worse than drawing into a tapped land when you're trying to curve out.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Added Beast Within because there are times when I have a turn open and I need to interact with an opposing annoying card (ie. a GAAIV player in my meta). Took out Skullclamp cause I never wanted to eat my mana dorks. Eternal Witness is a great way to answer enchantment hate. Lastly, I changed Rune-Scarred Demon to Goblin Matron solely because Matron can be cast and used for Food Chain fodder the next turn. These creatures, like the Priests, are important to the greater picture by doubling as ramp.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
What do you generally use Chord of Calling for? I don't really see the situation where it's useful. It's pretty expensive pre-combo, and requires two extra green creatures or mana post-combo.
How has Elvish Harbinger been performing? I see the benefit of it, but it seems like needing to cast it before your combo turn could hurt.
Is Somberwald Sage better than Nantuko Elder? It produces more mana, but neither can tap+exile to cast Prossh alone, and the Elder can help tutor and cast FC.
Excellent feedback again!
I'll be honest and say that I have not played this list a whole lot in actual practice yet. I got 2 games in the other night but that was it, and that's really not a fair sample size to see how this deck performs in different scenarios.
@Orcish Lumberjack
Trust me when I say I want to play this card real bad. I glanced over it many times and I just can't bring myself to play it yet. The potential inconsistencies with it really bug me. I guess it's not that much different than playing Arbor Elf though. I guess I'll give it a shot lol.
@Summoner's Pact / Chord of Calling
You know what, Chord is a legacy tutor from earlier iterations of the deck. You're probably right in that it should be cut. Summoner's Pact seems like the more optimal card anyways. Thanks for pointing this out. On that note Survival of the Fittest is starting to look less and less appealing. I rarely want to go out of my way for a creature tutor. Perhaps Rune-Scarred Demon could take this guy's place again lol.
@LED
I don't think it's for this deck.
@Somberwald Sage / Nantuko Elder / Elvish Harbinger
All of these are on the cut list. Having too many rampers at the 3CMC slot is kinda harsh if you don't have a 1-drop to go with it. I would have to say that they're pretty necessary to speed up FC, but I think running 4 of them is too many. I think going down to 2 might help smooth things out. I'll play the Lumberjack in Somberwald's place and play another threat/answer in place of the other.
I want to ask people how they would best tackle the removal / countermagic issue. I'm going to be playing in a new metagame with lots of blue, so I think that I should dedicate at least another 1-2 slot towards blue hate. I think I'm already running the best cards, but adding in an Omen of Fire or Guttural Response. I would rather force my opponents hand through spells that inhibit their gameplay so that I can distract them from my game-winning combos. This deck could totally afford to wait for an opportune moment to cast Omen or Boil on an opponents' turn. Adding in 1-2 spot removal would be okay too. Ideas?
EDIT:
OP updated with changes. Added Omen of Fire, Diabolic Tutor, and Nantuko Elder. Diabolic is a necessary evil. Fishing these hands, the 4CMC isn't too bad of a drawback considering the absurd amount of ramp in this deck. I ended up cutting Survival of the Fittest as a result; I really don't need creature tutors in this deck except Summoner's Pact, which looks insane here. As mentioned before, I play in a blue-heavy meta. Generally 2-3 players at the table will be running blue, and I see this is as a great opportunity to try and force their hand outside of my own turn.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
B Chainer, Dementia Master B | UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG | WRG Marath, Will of the Wild WRG | UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR | UBG Tasigur, the Golden Fang UBG
Modern:
WBG Abzan Company WBG | UBR Grixis Delver and/or Twin UBR | U Merfolk U
WBG Anafenza, the Foremost WBG
WUR Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon WUBRG
URG Maelstrom Wanderer URG
UBG Damia, Sage of Stone UBG
WUG Roon of the Hidden Realm WUG
WUG Rafiq of the Many WUG
WUG Deveri, Empyrial Tactician WUG
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher BRG
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain WBG
UBR Nekusar, the Mind Razer UBR
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
UG Prime Speaker Zegana UG
UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
WB Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter WB
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
If I wasn't playing in a heavy blue meta, then I would probably just play more ramp and more tutors in those slots. Or it really depends on what you're up against. Avoid Fate is still a decent card against spot removal. You could play Survival of the Fittest and try running a little Squee, Goblin Nabob value engine. If you're up against other combo decks, you might want to include removal that can deal with whatever they're playing. Jund has an excellent removal suite; it's a shame that this deck really doesn't have the time or resources to be blowing up other peoples' stuff. It might be useful if you could tell me what types of decks you're expecting.
---
The more I sample hands, the more I'm liking the idea of going extremely creature-heavy. The more I play this deck, the more it starts to feel and look like some deformed version of Animar. I'm looking for utility, card parity, and disruption in the form of 1/2 drops. So far, I'm liking things like Elvish Visionary, Sylvan Ranger....maybe even Wall of Blossoms and Goblin Recruiter. Anything to get my FC mana online an more consistently.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Lotus cobra same deal should have been thier already
Orchish lumberjack hmm I guess that's pretty good not sure about that
Draw dork seems fine
About cutting mox Diamond if it's the right choice that's probly bad. That being said it normally means your not refilling your hand which is not bad but it's not good
So suggestion number 1 in line with your dudes theme and from what your experience with mox Diamond tells me run Dark Confidant.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Always a pleasure when you stop by.
Yes, this deck doesn't refill often; stuck in Jund colors. What I try to make up for in lack of sculpting is an increase in redundancy, ie running 10 ways to fetch a win condition and 10 ways to fetch Food Chain. Sample hands have been playing out fairly consistently. Maybe 1 in 10 hands leads to nothing, which is perfectly fine with me. I'd say 1 in 5 hands results in a turn 3 win, and 2 in 5 hands results in a turn 4 win, and another 2 in 5 results in turn 5+ win (usually involves setup with Dosan or Boil). This is based off a pretty small sample size (like 50 hands?), so your numbers may be different, but they've been very good for me.
Orcish Lumberjack is a test slot. I think that it's a moderate risk that has the potential to pay extremely high dividends. It would be a crime if I didn't at least try it out.
Chrome Mox was just not working for me. It's okay, but I'd almost rather run Elvish Spirit Guide or Simian Spirit Guide. Mox Diamond may come back in if I increase my draw a little bit, but this deck really wants to make its land drops.
Elvish Visionary I expect to be solid. Since I don't have access to Brainstorm and friends, this is the next best thing. And they're honestly better than they look on paper, to the doubters. They're all additional mana that feed into Food Chain during combo turn. I think Dark Confidant is an auto-include, but are Wall of Blossoms, Goblin Recruiter, Gatecreeepr Vine, or Sylvan Ranger?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Agreed on all points. Thanks again for the feedback!
Yup. This deck folds to instant-speed enchantment removal. Regrowth effects aren't great, but I haven't found the solution to this problem either. My goal was to just go faster, and fold if they have it. I could try and run more defensive cards like Xantid Swarm or Avoid Fate, but I think that's a losing strategy. The matter of the fact is, you're going to lose those games where they have an answer.
Now I wouldn't mind opening the deck up to other avenues of attack, but the question begs an answer that no one has been able to give me. What other plan does Prossh have that is as brutal as this one? As mentioned in the OP, I've tried just about every avenue of attack, and they're all inefficient and clunky. If you could suggest to me another plan of attack that doesn't require overhauling the list, then I am definitely open to suggestions. The goodstuff Jund lists that I see are great for maybe killing one player at a time, but in a competitive meta that just isn't enough to keep up on a consistent basis. From my perspective, you can either go aggro Prossh or combo Prossh. Aggro consists of generally 1-shotting one to two players, but costs just as many resources and tutors as going for a combo. The other combos are all unfocused and just as easy to stop with well-timed removal. Isn't the best answer just to run some hate and try to go as fast as possible?
I don't mean this in a defensive "no I won't change my deck because your opinion sucks". I am legitimately looking for a way to either bolster resilience or find another efficient angle of attack. Any suggestions here would be great.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Odric Master Tactician French 1v1 Rules:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=521622
Adun Oakenshield Multiplayer:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=521772
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UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR