Got some new updates for the deck. I've made the following changes:
Acquire >> Bribery Both have the ability to to pull a win-con or be a dud. That being said, I feel I'm getting better mileage out of Bribery. It's useful in a huge variety of situations, and it's definitely won me a game or two so far. Szadek, Lord of Secrets >> Oona, Queen of the Fae Oona hasn't quite come out swinging as strong as I'd hoped, but she's still an improvement. For one less mana, I still start with a 5/5 flier when I cast her. Additionally, Szadek's ability didn't really synergize with the deck. This deck does have aggressive cards, but he was too slow and left me open, and that was if he was hitting a player every turn. Oona's ability, while expensive, doesn't require her to attack, bleeds out an opponents deck, and can provide me with chump blockers/millers. Pilfered Plans >> Fallowsage This was a swap I was hesitant about at first. Pilfered Plans is nice because it gains me two cards early and mills a little. I realized though, that with good mulligans and the high number of win-cons, that I don't really need the early kick. Additionally, Fallowsage can give me more cards consistently, without a drawback like most draw engines, and I can mill with him while still drawing. His mill will allow me to mill for more, and the ability to do so at instant speed is extremely useful.
Up next for testing is Morphling. I've finally gotten to use some of the reanimation spells in this deck, and I really enjoyed them. For that reason, I'm going to look for a space to test Puppeteer Clique in. I haven't forgotten about Mesmeric Orb and Ulamog, Infinite Gyre either, but I need to find a space for Ulamog.
I'm bumping this thread because I've made some changes to both the thread and the deck that I'd love to get feedback on. For the thread, I'm working on updating the OP as a primer.
The first of my changes to the deck are the result of the new set, Journey into Nyx. Out of everything, two cards stood out to me. I tested both of them, and came up with the following changes: Jace's Phantasm >> Disciple of Deceit: The easy-to-use and reusable transmute from the disciple was something I had to give a try, and it did not disappoint. I'm swapping it in for the phantasm, because just being a 5/5 flier, even with the U cost, just isn't worth it. Keening Stone >> King Macar, the Gold-Cursed: King-Macar was simply too good to pass up in this deck. Even when he gets to be hated early, the removal and extra mana are simply phenomenal. I pulled Keening Stone because even though it was a win con, I never used it. In fact, it was pretty much an auto-mulligan.
My other changes were just the result of learning how the deck plays and drawing ideas from other decks I faced. Hedron Crab >> Rhystic Study: I realized that this deck really sings when it has some card draw going. I chose Rhystic Study because it's cheap to play and can draw a lot. I pulled the crab because, like the phantasm, I wasn't getting enough bang for my buck, even with the cost. Dimir Guildgate >> Temple of Deceit: This one was an easy choice. The temple is a direct upgrade. Murder >> Hero's Downfall: While this card is also a direct upgrade, it's an expensive one. I went with it because it helps handle planeswalkers, something the deck needed.
I'm also testing Nephalia Drownyard >> Reliquary Tower
It's been a while, but I've been able to do some testing with the deck, and made the following changes:
12/1/14
Nemesis of Reason >> Morphling The nemesis is a decent miller, but it's kind of underwhelming for its mana cost. The morphling will cost us more in the long run, but it gets way more done for us as well.
Nephalia Drownyard >> Reliquary Tower This was an easy change. I've never found myself using the drownyard to mill. As I've added card draw to the deck, I have found myself wanting for the tower.
Dimir Cluestone >> Commander's Sphere This was a no-brainer, the sphere being a direct upgrade to the cluestone.
3/5/15
Swan Song >> Glen Elendra Archmage The only edge here is that swan song can be cast earlier. The archmage can counter twice, is a great deterrent, can mill a small amount, contributes one devotion, can target more things, and doesn't give our opponent a creature
Looking at Khans and Fate Reforged, not a whole lot has stood out to me. What did was: Altar of the Brood It's a pretty fun mill card and it's dirt cheap. Unfortunately it's actually a pretty slow mill card except in really big games. Otherwise it's win-more at best for this deck. Monastery Siege This card offers us the choice of some added protection for our creatures or card advantage, both of which this deck could always use more of. I'll defintely be looking for a spot for it.
I've definitely considered Slagwurm Armor, though it's pretty low on my list. I definitely think it'd be more useful than a win more card, but not so much that it's worth a spot. Using the Colossus had never occurred to me. It's a bit on the expensive side, but there's definitely synergy with the deck. I'll tuck it away in the back of my mind for when I'm playing.
Reins of Power is a sweet trick on its own, but with Phenax out is one massive mill turn. You get 2 mill activations out of your own creatures and 1 mill from your opponents.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born - easy to run with Minamo, can also mill for a big amount. 2 creatures alone could be 13-18 cards, and he works hilariously with Reins of Power.
Sigil of Distinction- scales incredibly well. Normally since this doesn't grant evasion, people dismiss it, but Phenax doesn't care about that. You can either keep it on one creature, or bounce it between 2-3 for more immediate value.
EDIT: Lashwrithe & Bonehoard? Equipment or not, the power of these two can't be ignored. Bonehoard is strictly better then Nighthowler.
Reins of Power Because everything it does is part of one big trigger and how gaining control of creatures works, I'm pretty sure it can't be used to get a second mill activation from my own guys. That being said, it's still extra mill, and wicked useful for a defensive play as well. I'm gonna test this one out, really the only thing that might stop me from using it is the fact that Phenax could get swapped too, leaving me unable to mill with my opponent's creatures.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born I've definitely considered him. Even with Minamo, I don't think i have enough to abuse him. Anything I sac to him (except Oona's tokens maybe) would be able to mill more than the +1 from the counter.
Sigil of Distinction Because I can only equip at sorcery speed and this deck prefers not to mill on my turn, I don't really get much out of the equip cost not costing mana. Slagwurm Armor probably benefit me more.
Lashwrithe & Bonehoard The only thing keeping me from Lashwrithe is that I'm not sure I have enough swamps to really take advantage of it. As for Bonehoard, I'm going to be testing this as well. I'm not totally convinced it's strictly better, only because Nighthowler when cast as an aura provides some insurance against removal. But, we'll see.
You tap your creatures prior to casting Reins of Power for the first mill. Your creatures untap, swap occurs, tap opponents creatures for mill, swap back, EOT tap your creatures again.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding they way the rules work on this, but because they lose haste and they're just coming back under my control, can't I not tap them until my turn?
Now that Dragons has been fully spoiled, it's time to take a look at the set Glint +3 to toughness is pretty underwhelming by itself. The only reason I'd consider it is the hexproof could save a win con in addition to providing a slight buff. Foul Renewal For this deck at least, this is the card I'm most excited for. As soon as it's released, I'm testing it in place of Rend Flesh. For just one extra mana we can target all creature types, take out indestructible creatures, and add a little recursion to the deck (even if it means taking say Glacial Wall instead of Undead Alchemist, it's still a creature I wouldn't have otherwise gotten back.) Profaner of the Dead I want to like this card so badly, but I just can't. If it had flash, it'd pretty much be an auto-include. It'd be a great way to turn the loss of a win-con into something still negative for our opponents. Now, it's really only a chance to trade in a wall for some bounce, if I even get the two together. Damnable Pact The one-time payment of life isn't bad at all for this deck, but it seems too expensive compared to other options, at least until really late in the game. Zephyr Scribe This is another card I really wanted to like. It's card filtering, and the untap ability gives it extra value over other similar cards. Unfortunately, it likely wouldn't go off until turn 4, and it costs mana. Given that's about when this deck gets going, it's not very useful early on. Hedonist's Trove This card has some serious potential, both as graveyard hate and for giving us options. It's definitely one I'll be considering. Custodian of the Trove It's a cheap defender, but it just doesn't do enough. It'd be a maybe card at best if it didn't enter tapped. Spidersilk Net It probably won't make the cut, but it's got some serious potential for this deck. Costing 0 allows us to get it out and put it on something quick. The reach and the +2 make it pretty solid for early game pillowfort, plus the extra mill.
I also realized that I overlooked Ghastly Conscription. It's definitely getting tested somewhere, the trick is just where. It's not as powerful as Rise of the Dark Realms, but the mana cost makes it a lot more playable and it still has the chance to be extremely powerful.
I've got a fairly big update for this deck. In my efforts to bring about consistency, I've been moving more towards pillowfort with the deck. Additionally, I've been looking to get more out of my cards, and things like transmute are working really well towards that. So far, I've made the following changes: Island >> Tolaria West Tolaria West is a little less useful as a land, but the utility it provides is too good to pass up. Swamp >> Arcane Lighthouse The utility on the lighthouse has proven fantastic against things like [Card]Lightning Greaves[/Card Darksteel Ingot >> Talisman of Dominance The talisman is faster and more convenient than the ingot. It's also been surprisingly easy to live off 1 colorless, so the burn isn't really an issue. Guiltfeeder >> Maze of Ith As I moved towards pillowfort, the maze became an obvious choice. Guiltfeeder just wasn't doing it for me, so I made the switch there. Diabolic Tutor >> Demonic Tutor Demonic tutor is strictly better, and I was finally able to get one.
Happy to see Phenax gets a primer, congratulations on that. I play Phenax in some of the more casual games, strictly because my deck list isn't up to snuff with a lot of the faster decks. That being said, here are some of the cards I've found to be handy:
Arbiter of the Ideal - Decent butt for milling. Lot of synergy with all your untap effects.
Turnabout - Offers a lot of utility. Shut down a player for a turn, or double up on the mill you can do. Not to mention extra untapped effects on your creatures.
Unfortunately, nearly every deck I go against either utilizes their graveyard or has Eldrazi. It's been an uphill struggle that forces me to pack a ton of GY hate. You don't seem to face that problem, but lemme know if you do. (All kinds of ways to screw people over with Mist of Stagnation)
I'll also be testing a lot of the cards in your list I hadn't thought of, congrats again!
Happy to see Phenax gets a primer, congratulations on that. I play Phenax in some of the more casual games, strictly because my deck list isn't up to snuff with a lot of the faster decks. That being said, here are some of the cards I've found to be handy:
Thanks! Phenax is a more casual general in general, but personally I like that. It makes him more fun to play and to play against.
Arbiter of the Ideal - Decent butt for milling. Lot of synergy with all your untap effects.
Turnabout - Offers a lot of utility. Shut down a player for a turn, or double up on the mill you can do. Not to mention extra untapped effects on your creatures.
Thanks for the recommendations! I like the Wight a lot. I pulled it out in favor of Nighthowler only because bestowing it acts as "removal insurance". I guess I just forgot about it and never got around to looking for a new spot for it. Hollowsage is pretty interesting, not sure how I missed it. I think it'll end up suffering from the same problem as the Arbiter however, which is to say that it's got amazing synergy but works too slow when compared to other options. Turnabout is also one I'd missed, and it's one I will absolutely be keeping in mind for a possible spot.
Unfortunately, nearly every deck I go against either utilizes their graveyard or has Eldrazi. It's been an uphill struggle that forces me to pack a ton of GY hate. You don't seem to face that problem, but lemme know if you do. (All kinds of ways to screw people over with Mist of Stagnation)
I'll also be testing a lot of the cards in your list I hadn't thought of, congrats again!
I don't run into them in my local playgroup because it's more casual, but I absolutely have to face them down when I'm playing on Cockatrice. I feel like facing them has made my deck a lot stronger, as it's forced me to get creative with my responses. Unfortunately cards like Leyline of the Void are total nonbos with some of the more powerful cards in the deck. Part of the solution is in gy hate that can hit the Eldrazi such as Crypt Incursion and Undead Alchemist (though with the latter you need to be aware of APNAP stack ordering). Then there's exile effects like Oona, Queen of the Fae and Sadistic Sacrament that have the possibility to hit them before they ever cause a shuffle. Bloodchief Ascension] and Duskmantle Guildmage will kill an opponent regardless of whether the cards stay in their gy. Finally, the exiling the deck has in King Macar, the Gold-Cursed and Curse of the Swine are great at taking them out and keeping them out.
I hope my list helps you, and I'd love to see yours if you have it online somewhere.
I was playing a game last night and an opposing Phenax deck dropped a Tidal Force. It sort of surprised me as an out of the blue card but it offered him defense as well as the ability to fast mill people. The option of an every turn mill for 7 seems good and he was doing annoying things like tapping blockers and Maze effects on opponents allowing people to swing through elsewhere.
I just thought I would mention it as it surprised me with how much it really did do for him.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I was playing a game last night and an opposing Phenax deck dropped a Tidal Force. It sort of surprised me as an out of the blue card but it offered him defense as well as the ability to fast mill people. The option of an every turn mill for 7 seems good and he was doing annoying things like tapping blockers and Maze effects on opponents allowing people to swing through elsewhere.
I just thought I would mention it as it surprised me with how much it really did do for him.
Glad to see some love for Phenax. There are a few cards though I didn't see you mentioning, which I think deserve some consideration.
Horseshoe Crab - I love this little fella here. He comes out early and gives you things to do at the end of an opponents turn, when you left mana open for a counterspell or Cyclonic Rift. Since my deck is very blue heavy with it's mana base, he's a mvp for me.
Jace's Archivist - I don't know about you, but often times I'm short on hand cards with Phenax and he let's me profit out of my opponents greed. Also messes with opponents game plans and lets them discard things they tutored (especially from Vampiric Tutor and its kind)
Memory Lapse - perfect counterspell with Phenax and an untapped creature out.
Set Adrift - acts as vindicate for nonlands that can even hit indestructible permanents. Often times for a single U
Nihil Spellbomb - This one is an amazing answer to Eldrazi trigger, since you can just exile the whole graveyard in response. Also nice with Life's Finale to get rid of those Eldrazis before you even mill them. Worst case it's a cheap cantrip.
Triton Tactics - haven't come around to try this out yet, but I imagine it to play out as an combat trick to stop an opponent's alpha strike and mill for a bunch. Still don't know about it, though.
Volition Reins - It acts as "removel" for permanents, development of your own board and at least +3 for your devotion count. Possibly more, if you get a black or blue permanent.
Draining Whelk - Counterspell that can mill with Phenax.
Wake Thrasher - he actally was a surprise hit for me. I had a copy and tried him out, since then earned his place in my deck. He comes out early and scales up very nicely. Although with all those untap shenanigans I sometimes just want to beat face with that 12/12 monstrosity that he can become. But reliably milling for 30 or more is fine, too :p.
Also, how often can you make Phenax a creature? For me, that was quite a problem, which is why I also added high devotion cards like Mind over Matter and Glen Elendra Liege.
Thanks for the suggestions guys! Tidal Force looks like it could be insanely useful, I'll be looking for a spot for it. Horseshoe Crab looks pretty decent. I might try it in for Knacksaw Clique during my next round of testing. It's not as good a blocker, but there's more bang for the buck there. Wall of Blood is one I'm going to tuck aside until I'm in a more constant meta because of the aggro component you mentioned. I see why you like it though. Jace's Archivist is one I've known about for a while, but I'm hesitant to include it. He has the potential to help opponents, which is less than ideal when playing a powerful mill deck. Memory Lapse is one I can't believe I missed. I'll immediately be testing it in place of Counterspell. I definitely see the potential of Set Adrift in this deck. It'd definitely help against non-creatures, which this deck could definitely use. I'll be looking for a spot for it. If I need more gy hate, Nihil Spellbomb will likely be at the top of my list. Right now though, I'm pretty happy with how much the deck has. Triton Tactics is another I've considered for the obvious synergy. I'm just not convinced there's enough bang for the buck there compared to other cards. I hadn't considered Volition Reins, but it too just seems too expensive for what it does. Djinn of Infinite Deceits looks fun, though right now I'm not totally sure it's something the deck needs. Not sure it makes the "Cards I'm Considering List", but I'll definitely tuck it away for later. I'm not sure if I like Draining Whelk or not. It's very expensive for a counter spell, and there's going to be a whole lot of ways to get a bigger butt to mill with for less. Wake Thrasher is going to hit the top of my list for cards I need to find a spot to test. I recently came across it, but it seemed like a "better on paper than in practice" card. Your recommendation is what I was needing to push me over the fence on it.
I've found it's easy to get devotion, but a lot harder to keep it. As much as I'd love to have a 4/7 indestructible milling wall, I don't usually mind him not being a creature. He's better at dodging removal without devotion and usually I can get something out where the loss of a 7 card mill isn't gonna break the game.
I'll let you know when I do decide to post a deck list. It's more or less a tribal walls deck :). Just swap all your graveyard recursion for graveyard removal, and that's pretty much me. I'll be trying out all the Jester's Cap type cards in your list, and I'm pretty excited about that.
Did a comparison, the only other things I would consider adding to your list:
Toxic Deluge - IMO, this serves better than Black Sun Zenith, because of the cheaper cost, and your dudes not permanently weakened. However, the Zenith still warrants a slot, so maybe over Rend Flesh?
Lim-Dûl's Vault - Library Manipulation at its finest. Effectively a tutor. I strongly recommend slotting this in. I'd personally slot it in over Muddle the Mixture. But, if the transmute has been super good to you, consider adding in Shred Memory for the 2 cmc transmute + Eldrazi Titan removal.
Profane Memento - I get a lot of mileage off of this. It doesn't net the initial lump sum of Crypt Incursion, but I would say it comes out on top in the end, due to taking all players into consideration. The low cost and ongoing effect makes it definitely worth testing.
Those 3 and that Turnabout I mentioned earlier are the only things I truly insist upon. I also run Mortivore and Riddlekeeper, but honestly don't see much you would cut for them. Your call.
Toxic Deluge - IMO, this serves better than Black Sun Zenith, because of the cheaper cost, and your dudes not permanently weakened. However, the Zenith still warrants a slot, so maybe over Rend Flesh?
I have similarly never liked BSZ. Deluge is just so dang versatile and considering the big butts you run for creatures in a lot of cases you can make it one sided. The fact that it doesn't leave counters on your own creatures with Deluge is probably a lot stronger too.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'll let you know when I do decide to post a deck list. It's more or less a tribal walls deck :). Just swap all your graveyard recursion for graveyard removal, and that's pretty much me. I'll be trying out all the Jester's Cap type cards in your list, and I'm pretty excited about that.
Love tribal wall so much! I'm glad you like the Jester's Cap style cards, but I'd recommend the cap over praetor's grasp if you're looking to remove eldrazi. Grasp only hits one, which is why I'm considering replacing it for Geralf.
Did a comparison, the only other things I would consider adding to your list:
Toxic Deluge - IMO, this serves better than Black Sun Zenith, because of the cheaper cost, and your dudes not permanently weakened. However, the Zenith still warrants a slot, so maybe over Rend Flesh?
Lim-Dûl's Vault - Library Manipulation at its finest. Effectively a tutor. I strongly recommend slotting this in. I'd personally slot it in over Muddle the Mixture. But, if the transmute has been super good to you, consider adding in Shred Memory for the 2 cmc transmute + Eldrazi Titan removal.
Profane Memento - I get a lot of mileage off of this. It doesn't net the initial lump sum of Crypt Incursion, but I would say it comes out on top in the end, due to taking all players into consideration. The low cost and ongoing effect makes it definitely worth testing.
Those 3 and that Turnabout I mentioned earlier are the only things I truly insist upon. I also run Mortivore and Riddlekeeper, but honestly don't see much you would cut for them. Your call.
Thanks for the suggestions! I have to admit I've been finding BSZ a bit underwhelming as of late. I'll test toxic deluge in its place, and if I need to I'll figure out a spot for it. Lim-Dûl's Vault is absolutely going on my considering list. The only reason I wouldn't swap it for Muddle the Mixture is because in addition to being able to tutor, it can also shut down board wipes, which is huge for a deck like this. And Shred Memory has been on my "short list" for a while now. Profane Memento will also hit the "cards I'm considering" list. Normally I'm dubious about lifegain in EDH, but Crypt Incursion has saved me enough times that this looks well worth it. I'm also looking for a spot for Turnabout.
I have actually considered these guys. I've avoided them because the deck is based around tapping guys for abilities, but these guys need to deal combat damage to really make a difference. This deck is looking to win with combat damage in 1-2 swings or not at all, so that damage doesn't contribute either way.
A small update, I've made the following changes: Jwar Isle Refuge >> Tainted Isle Ultimately this is faster mana with a smaller downside. Shizo, Death's Storehouse >> Mystifying Maze Shizo is only useful in rare corner cases, and I'd much rather use it in another deck and the maze adds pillowfort. Black Sun's Zenith >> Toxic Deluge I was simply blown away by how much more useful Deluge is, even without the built in recursion.
There are a couple cards that simply haven't come up yet, while the rest I'm on the fence about. I'm going to wait to test some of the other cards on my list until I know whether or not the cards I'm testing are going to occupy a spot. One change I do feel comfortable testing, though, is Springleaf Drum in for Commander's Sphere. 3 cmc rocks actually tend to disrupt my tempo, plus the drum will allow for another way for creatures to tap safely without Phenax as well as tapping with summoning sickness.
Mindshrieker is a nice early beater/miller and helps start the milling process. I'd also take a look at Withered Wretch and Rootwater Thief to help with Eldrazi removal.
Mindshrieker is a nice early beater/miller and helps start the milling process. I'd also take a look at Withered Wretch and Rootwater Thief to help with Eldrazi removal.
Thanks for the suggestions. Mindshrieker is definitely something I'll consider. I've definitely considered cards like Withered Wretch, but right now I feel pretty good about the level of gy hate in the deck. That may change in return to zendikar though. I feel like Chancellor of the Spires is really only worth the cost if you have it in your opening hand. I feel like Dilluvian Primordial would give you more bang for your buck. I'm not sure how I overlooked Grimoire Thief, but I'm really liking it. Nightmare Incursion really only seems to be something you'd add if you really needed it. I'm not a fan of Bitter Ordeal. For the same cmc you get more from Praetor's Grasp, which I'm honestly doubting.
First up, while I haven't been able to do a ton of testing lately, I've used Foul Renewal enough to swap it in for Rend Flesh. I feel like I get more use of out of it, plus it's a better fit flavor-wise.
Next up, let's take a look at Magic Origins. The following are new cards that are inline with what the deck is doing enough that they merit analysis.
Disciple of the Ring: This one has some fantastic synergy with the tap/untap mechanics of this deck, plus extra use as a counter. The only reason it might not make the cut is that it requires exiling from our own gy. Given how creature heavy the deck is, I'm not sure if it'd be able to pull it's weight. If you're running Phenax as a self-mill commander, though, this should absolutely be on your list.
Sphinx's Tutelage: After doing the math, this thing mills an average of three cards per turn without any other draw engine. This gets stronger against heavy ramp decks too. That right there makes it more reliable than a lot of other "When X, target player/opponent mills Y" cards. With something like Phyrexian Arena out, it gets even better. The fact that it offers expensive card filtering + mill also makes this card just slightly more appealing. I'm not convinced it's powerful enough, but I'll likely try it out at some point.
Dreadwaters: In order for a single-use, single-target mill card to make the list, it has to mill a ton of cards. Sadly, this doesn't come close.
Nivix Barrier: While this offers decent pillowfort, the -4/-0 is only good once, and that's not enough to make an 0/4 for four worth it.
Possessed Skaab: I really like the options it gives for recursion, and that it sticks around to be used as a miller. That being said, I just don't think there's enough of a need for it.
Same, though I think both cards needing to be the same color is the biggest nail in the coffin for it. It would be decent if it at least chained somewhat easily.
Acquire >> Bribery Both have the ability to to pull a win-con or be a dud. That being said, I feel I'm getting better mileage out of Bribery. It's useful in a huge variety of situations, and it's definitely won me a game or two so far.
Szadek, Lord of Secrets >> Oona, Queen of the Fae Oona hasn't quite come out swinging as strong as I'd hoped, but she's still an improvement. For one less mana, I still start with a 5/5 flier when I cast her. Additionally, Szadek's ability didn't really synergize with the deck. This deck does have aggressive cards, but he was too slow and left me open, and that was if he was hitting a player every turn. Oona's ability, while expensive, doesn't require her to attack, bleeds out an opponents deck, and can provide me with chump blockers/millers.
Pilfered Plans >> Fallowsage This was a swap I was hesitant about at first. Pilfered Plans is nice because it gains me two cards early and mills a little. I realized though, that with good mulligans and the high number of win-cons, that I don't really need the early kick. Additionally, Fallowsage can give me more cards consistently, without a drawback like most draw engines, and I can mill with him while still drawing. His mill will allow me to mill for more, and the ability to do so at instant speed is extremely useful.
Up next for testing is Morphling. I've finally gotten to use some of the reanimation spells in this deck, and I really enjoyed them. For that reason, I'm going to look for a space to test Puppeteer Clique in. I haven't forgotten about Mesmeric Orb and Ulamog, Infinite Gyre either, but I need to find a space for Ulamog.
The first of my changes to the deck are the result of the new set, Journey into Nyx. Out of everything, two cards stood out to me. I tested both of them, and came up with the following changes:
Jace's Phantasm >> Disciple of Deceit: The easy-to-use and reusable transmute from the disciple was something I had to give a try, and it did not disappoint. I'm swapping it in for the phantasm, because just being a 5/5 flier, even with the U cost, just isn't worth it.
Keening Stone >> King Macar, the Gold-Cursed: King-Macar was simply too good to pass up in this deck. Even when he gets to be hated early, the removal and extra mana are simply phenomenal. I pulled Keening Stone because even though it was a win con, I never used it. In fact, it was pretty much an auto-mulligan.
My other changes were just the result of learning how the deck plays and drawing ideas from other decks I faced.
Hedron Crab >> Rhystic Study: I realized that this deck really sings when it has some card draw going. I chose Rhystic Study because it's cheap to play and can draw a lot. I pulled the crab because, like the phantasm, I wasn't getting enough bang for my buck, even with the cost.
Dimir Guildgate >> Temple of Deceit: This one was an easy choice. The temple is a direct upgrade.
Murder >> Hero's Downfall: While this card is also a direct upgrade, it's an expensive one. I went with it because it helps handle planeswalkers, something the deck needed.
I'm also testing Nephalia Drownyard >> Reliquary Tower
12/1/14
Nemesis of Reason >> Morphling The nemesis is a decent miller, but it's kind of underwhelming for its mana cost. The morphling will cost us more in the long run, but it gets way more done for us as well.
Nephalia Drownyard >> Reliquary Tower This was an easy change. I've never found myself using the drownyard to mill. As I've added card draw to the deck, I have found myself wanting for the tower.
Dimir Cluestone >> Commander's Sphere This was a no-brainer, the sphere being a direct upgrade to the cluestone.
3/5/15
Swan Song >> Glen Elendra Archmage The only edge here is that swan song can be cast earlier. The archmage can counter twice, is a great deterrent, can mill a small amount, contributes one devotion, can target more things, and doesn't give our opponent a creature
Going forward, I'm testing:
Jwar Isle Refuge >> Tainted Isle
Darksteel Ingot >> Wayfarer's Bauble
I'm testing both of these in the hopes of getting a small increase in efficiency in the early game.
Island >> Tolaria West
Swamp >> Arcane Lighthouse
I'm hoping the utility on these will be worth them being less effective as mana producers
Evil Twin >> Clever Impersonator
I'm expecting that being able to copy almost anything will prove more useful than being able to kill something. Chose the twin over Phyrexian Metamorph only because the impersonator would mean a cost increase.
Looking at Khans and Fate Reforged, not a whole lot has stood out to me. What did was:
Altar of the Brood It's a pretty fun mill card and it's dirt cheap. Unfortunately it's actually a pretty slow mill card except in really big games. Otherwise it's win-more at best for this deck.
Monastery Siege This card offers us the choice of some added protection for our creatures or card advantage, both of which this deck could always use more of. I'll defintely be looking for a spot for it.
Colossus of Akros, too.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I've definitely considered Slagwurm Armor, though it's pretty low on my list. I definitely think it'd be more useful than a win more card, but not so much that it's worth a spot. Using the Colossus had never occurred to me. It's a bit on the expensive side, but there's definitely synergy with the deck. I'll tuck it away in the back of my mind for when I'm playing.
Reins of Power is a sweet trick on its own, but with Phenax out is one massive mill turn. You get 2 mill activations out of your own creatures and 1 mill from your opponents.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born - easy to run with Minamo, can also mill for a big amount. 2 creatures alone could be 13-18 cards, and he works hilariously with Reins of Power.
Sigil of Distinction- scales incredibly well. Normally since this doesn't grant evasion, people dismiss it, but Phenax doesn't care about that. You can either keep it on one creature, or bounce it between 2-3 for more immediate value.
EDIT: Lashwrithe & Bonehoard? Equipment or not, the power of these two can't be ignored. Bonehoard is strictly better then Nighthowler.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
Reins of Power Because everything it does is part of one big trigger and how gaining control of creatures works, I'm pretty sure it can't be used to get a second mill activation from my own guys. That being said, it's still extra mill, and wicked useful for a defensive play as well. I'm gonna test this one out, really the only thing that might stop me from using it is the fact that Phenax could get swapped too, leaving me unable to mill with my opponent's creatures.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born I've definitely considered him. Even with Minamo, I don't think i have enough to abuse him. Anything I sac to him (except Oona's tokens maybe) would be able to mill more than the +1 from the counter.
Sigil of Distinction Because I can only equip at sorcery speed and this deck prefers not to mill on my turn, I don't really get much out of the equip cost not costing mana. Slagwurm Armor probably benefit me more.
Lashwrithe & Bonehoard The only thing keeping me from Lashwrithe is that I'm not sure I have enough swamps to really take advantage of it. As for Bonehoard, I'm going to be testing this as well. I'm not totally convinced it's strictly better, only because Nighthowler when cast as an aura provides some insurance against removal. But, we'll see.
It's all upside.
RW Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas
Glint +3 to toughness is pretty underwhelming by itself. The only reason I'd consider it is the hexproof could save a win con in addition to providing a slight buff.
Foul Renewal For this deck at least, this is the card I'm most excited for. As soon as it's released, I'm testing it in place of Rend Flesh. For just one extra mana we can target all creature types, take out indestructible creatures, and add a little recursion to the deck (even if it means taking say Glacial Wall instead of Undead Alchemist, it's still a creature I wouldn't have otherwise gotten back.)
Profaner of the Dead I want to like this card so badly, but I just can't. If it had flash, it'd pretty much be an auto-include. It'd be a great way to turn the loss of a win-con into something still negative for our opponents. Now, it's really only a chance to trade in a wall for some bounce, if I even get the two together.
Damnable Pact The one-time payment of life isn't bad at all for this deck, but it seems too expensive compared to other options, at least until really late in the game.
Zephyr Scribe This is another card I really wanted to like. It's card filtering, and the untap ability gives it extra value over other similar cards. Unfortunately, it likely wouldn't go off until turn 4, and it costs mana. Given that's about when this deck gets going, it's not very useful early on.
Hedonist's Trove This card has some serious potential, both as graveyard hate and for giving us options. It's definitely one I'll be considering.
Custodian of the Trove It's a cheap defender, but it just doesn't do enough. It'd be a maybe card at best if it didn't enter tapped.
Spidersilk Net It probably won't make the cut, but it's got some serious potential for this deck. Costing 0 allows us to get it out and put it on something quick. The reach and the +2 make it pretty solid for early game pillowfort, plus the extra mill.
I also realized that I overlooked Ghastly Conscription. It's definitely getting tested somewhere, the trick is just where. It's not as powerful as Rise of the Dark Realms, but the mana cost makes it a lot more playable and it still has the chance to be extremely powerful.
Island >> Tolaria West Tolaria West is a little less useful as a land, but the utility it provides is too good to pass up.
Swamp >> Arcane Lighthouse The utility on the lighthouse has proven fantastic against things like [Card]Lightning Greaves[/Card
Darksteel Ingot >> Talisman of Dominance The talisman is faster and more convenient than the ingot. It's also been surprisingly easy to live off 1 colorless, so the burn isn't really an issue.
Guiltfeeder >> Maze of Ith As I moved towards pillowfort, the maze became an obvious choice. Guiltfeeder just wasn't doing it for me, so I made the switch there.
Diabolic Tutor >> Demonic Tutor Demonic tutor is strictly better, and I was finally able to get one.
Reins of Power didn't really work out because I tended to lose Phenax too often. So, I'm testing Ghastly Conscription in its place. I'm also testing the following, as further part of my move towards pillowfort and utility:
Praetor's Grasp >> Stitcher Geralf
Liliana Vess >> Drift of Phantasms
Rogue's Passage >> Mystifying Maze
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[Modern] Allies
Wight of Precinct Six - A cheaper, less versatile Nighthowler.
Hallowsage - Targeted Siren of the Silent Song
Arbiter of the Ideal - Decent butt for milling. Lot of synergy with all your untap effects.
Turnabout - Offers a lot of utility. Shut down a player for a turn, or double up on the mill you can do. Not to mention extra untapped effects on your creatures.
Unfortunately, nearly every deck I go against either utilizes their graveyard or has Eldrazi. It's been an uphill struggle that forces me to pack a ton of GY hate. You don't seem to face that problem, but lemme know if you do. (All kinds of ways to screw people over with Mist of Stagnation)
I'll also be testing a lot of the cards in your list I hadn't thought of, congrats again!
Thanks! Phenax is a more casual general in general, but personally I like that. It makes him more fun to play and to play against.
Thanks for the recommendations! I like the Wight a lot. I pulled it out in favor of Nighthowler only because bestowing it acts as "removal insurance". I guess I just forgot about it and never got around to looking for a new spot for it. Hollowsage is pretty interesting, not sure how I missed it. I think it'll end up suffering from the same problem as the Arbiter however, which is to say that it's got amazing synergy but works too slow when compared to other options. Turnabout is also one I'd missed, and it's one I will absolutely be keeping in mind for a possible spot.
I don't run into them in my local playgroup because it's more casual, but I absolutely have to face them down when I'm playing on Cockatrice. I feel like facing them has made my deck a lot stronger, as it's forced me to get creative with my responses. Unfortunately cards like Leyline of the Void are total nonbos with some of the more powerful cards in the deck. Part of the solution is in gy hate that can hit the Eldrazi such as Crypt Incursion and Undead Alchemist (though with the latter you need to be aware of APNAP stack ordering). Then there's exile effects like Oona, Queen of the Fae and Sadistic Sacrament that have the possibility to hit them before they ever cause a shuffle. Bloodchief Ascension] and Duskmantle Guildmage will kill an opponent regardless of whether the cards stay in their gy. Finally, the exiling the deck has in King Macar, the Gold-Cursed and Curse of the Swine are great at taking them out and keeping them out.
I hope my list helps you, and I'd love to see yours if you have it online somewhere.
I just thought I would mention it as it surprised me with how much it really did do for him.
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[Modern] Allies
Thanks for the suggestions guys!
Tidal Force looks like it could be insanely useful, I'll be looking for a spot for it. Horseshoe Crab looks pretty decent. I might try it in for Knacksaw Clique during my next round of testing. It's not as good a blocker, but there's more bang for the buck there. Wall of Blood is one I'm going to tuck aside until I'm in a more constant meta because of the aggro component you mentioned. I see why you like it though. Jace's Archivist is one I've known about for a while, but I'm hesitant to include it. He has the potential to help opponents, which is less than ideal when playing a powerful mill deck. Memory Lapse is one I can't believe I missed. I'll immediately be testing it in place of Counterspell. I definitely see the potential of Set Adrift in this deck. It'd definitely help against non-creatures, which this deck could definitely use. I'll be looking for a spot for it. If I need more gy hate, Nihil Spellbomb will likely be at the top of my list. Right now though, I'm pretty happy with how much the deck has. Triton Tactics is another I've considered for the obvious synergy. I'm just not convinced there's enough bang for the buck there compared to other cards. I hadn't considered Volition Reins, but it too just seems too expensive for what it does. Djinn of Infinite Deceits looks fun, though right now I'm not totally sure it's something the deck needs. Not sure it makes the "Cards I'm Considering List", but I'll definitely tuck it away for later. I'm not sure if I like Draining Whelk or not. It's very expensive for a counter spell, and there's going to be a whole lot of ways to get a bigger butt to mill with for less. Wake Thrasher is going to hit the top of my list for cards I need to find a spot to test. I recently came across it, but it seemed like a "better on paper than in practice" card. Your recommendation is what I was needing to push me over the fence on it.
I've found it's easy to get devotion, but a lot harder to keep it. As much as I'd love to have a 4/7 indestructible milling wall, I don't usually mind him not being a creature. He's better at dodging removal without devotion and usually I can get something out where the loss of a 7 card mill isn't gonna break the game.
Again, thanks for the suggestions guys!
Did a comparison, the only other things I would consider adding to your list:
Toxic Deluge - IMO, this serves better than Black Sun Zenith, because of the cheaper cost, and your dudes not permanently weakened. However, the Zenith still warrants a slot, so maybe over Rend Flesh?
Lim-Dûl's Vault - Library Manipulation at its finest. Effectively a tutor. I strongly recommend slotting this in. I'd personally slot it in over Muddle the Mixture. But, if the transmute has been super good to you, consider adding in Shred Memory for the 2 cmc transmute + Eldrazi Titan removal.
Profane Memento - I get a lot of mileage off of this. It doesn't net the initial lump sum of Crypt Incursion, but I would say it comes out on top in the end, due to taking all players into consideration. The low cost and ongoing effect makes it definitely worth testing.
Those 3 and that Turnabout I mentioned earlier are the only things I truly insist upon. I also run Mortivore and Riddlekeeper, but honestly don't see much you would cut for them. Your call.
Also, have you considered running Lazav, Dimir Mastermind or Wrexial, the Risen Deep, not as commanders, but in the deck?
I have similarly never liked BSZ. Deluge is just so dang versatile and considering the big butts you run for creatures in a lot of cases you can make it one sided. The fact that it doesn't leave counters on your own creatures with Deluge is probably a lot stronger too.
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[Modern] Allies
Love tribal wall so much! I'm glad you like the Jester's Cap style cards, but I'd recommend the cap over praetor's grasp if you're looking to remove eldrazi. Grasp only hits one, which is why I'm considering replacing it for Geralf.
Thanks for the suggestions! I have to admit I've been finding BSZ a bit underwhelming as of late. I'll test toxic deluge in its place, and if I need to I'll figure out a spot for it. Lim-Dûl's Vault is absolutely going on my considering list. The only reason I wouldn't swap it for Muddle the Mixture is because in addition to being able to tutor, it can also shut down board wipes, which is huge for a deck like this. And Shred Memory has been on my "short list" for a while now. Profane Memento will also hit the "cards I'm considering" list. Normally I'm dubious about lifegain in EDH, but Crypt Incursion has saved me enough times that this looks well worth it. I'm also looking for a spot for Turnabout.
I have actually considered these guys. I've avoided them because the deck is based around tapping guys for abilities, but these guys need to deal combat damage to really make a difference. This deck is looking to win with combat damage in 1-2 swings or not at all, so that damage doesn't contribute either way.
Jwar Isle Refuge >> Tainted Isle Ultimately this is faster mana with a smaller downside.
Shizo, Death's Storehouse >> Mystifying Maze Shizo is only useful in rare corner cases, and I'd much rather use it in another deck and the maze adds pillowfort.
Black Sun's Zenith >> Toxic Deluge I was simply blown away by how much more useful Deluge is, even without the built in recursion.
There are a couple cards that simply haven't come up yet, while the rest I'm on the fence about. I'm going to wait to test some of the other cards on my list until I know whether or not the cards I'm testing are going to occupy a spot. One change I do feel comfortable testing, though, is Springleaf Drum in for Commander's Sphere. 3 cmc rocks actually tend to disrupt my tempo, plus the drum will allow for another way for creatures to tap safely without Phenax as well as tapping with summoning sickness.
EDIT: What are your thoughts on Chancellor of the Spires, Grimoire Thief, Nightmare Incursion and Bitter Ordeal
Thanks for the suggestions. Mindshrieker is definitely something I'll consider. I've definitely considered cards like Withered Wretch, but right now I feel pretty good about the level of gy hate in the deck. That may change in return to zendikar though. I feel like Chancellor of the Spires is really only worth the cost if you have it in your opening hand. I feel like Dilluvian Primordial would give you more bang for your buck. I'm not sure how I overlooked Grimoire Thief, but I'm really liking it. Nightmare Incursion really only seems to be something you'd add if you really needed it. I'm not a fan of Bitter Ordeal. For the same cmc you get more from Praetor's Grasp, which I'm honestly doubting.
Next up, let's take a look at Magic Origins. The following are new cards that are inline with what the deck is doing enough that they merit analysis.
Disciple of the Ring: This one has some fantastic synergy with the tap/untap mechanics of this deck, plus extra use as a counter. The only reason it might not make the cut is that it requires exiling from our own gy. Given how creature heavy the deck is, I'm not sure if it'd be able to pull it's weight. If you're running Phenax as a self-mill commander, though, this should absolutely be on your list.
Sphinx's Tutelage: After doing the math, this thing mills an average of three cards per turn without any other draw engine. This gets stronger against heavy ramp decks too. That right there makes it more reliable than a lot of other "When X, target player/opponent mills Y" cards. With something like Phyrexian Arena out, it gets even better. The fact that it offers expensive card filtering + mill also makes this card just slightly more appealing. I'm not convinced it's powerful enough, but I'll likely try it out at some point.
Dreadwaters: In order for a single-use, single-target mill card to make the list, it has to mill a ton of cards. Sadly, this doesn't come close.
Nivix Barrier: While this offers decent pillowfort, the -4/-0 is only good once, and that's not enough to make an 0/4 for four worth it.
Possessed Skaab: I really like the options it gives for recursion, and that it sticks around to be used as a miller. That being said, I just don't think there's enough of a need for it.