"Saprolings need only a host to feed upon. Numbers will take care of the rest." —Ghave, Guru of Spores
Ghave, Guru of Spores just screams "combo me with _________", and even after just looking into what is possible for a few minutes its becomes fairly easy to figure out a bajillion ways to abuse the hell out of it.
For cards like this, I find it is as difficult (if not more difficult) a task to not break Ghave than it is to go inifinte in any of the many ways this is possible. In fact, even trying to remove all the infinite combos, I find that there are certain interactions that can go infinite without even trying.
This deck is a much more relaxed version, trying more to utilize Ghave's abilities to synergize with whatever the rest of the deck is doing rather than combo-ing out. There are many ways to do this, but I chose to play up the +1/+1 counter theme. The result is pretty interesting to play.
10/20/2014:
Cuts
-4 Eternal Witness, Genesis, Survival of the Fittest, Oversold Cemetery: This wasn't supposed to be a graveyard-centric deck, but I was constantly getting hosed by graveyard destruction spells while setting up graveyard loop shenanigans. The deck doesn't need or want to durdle around this much, so I cut the whole package. -1 Yavimaya Elder: I may change my mind on this one, but once the graveyard recursion theme was gone this was less of an option.
-1 Spike Feeder: Okay, so I changed my mind. Even though Spike Feeder plays with the +1/+1 counters, it pales in utility to Yavimaya Elder.
-4 Bitterblossom, Rhys, the Redeemed, Parallel Lives, Decree of Justice: I cut stuff that was only there for the token production.
-1 Mana Reflection: I had too many cards that didn't impact the board enough when they hit play. I can definitely use the mana, but I wanted the card slot more.
-3 Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Casualties of being a) too good with Doubling Season, and b) too concerned with making tokens.
-1 Triskelavus: These cards are actually quite good in this deck, but once I have one in play any others that I draw are redundant.
Adds
+1 Hardened Scales: Right at home in a +1/+1 counter deck.
+4 Utter End, Beast Within, Path to Exile, Shriekmaw: These were added to shore up my removal suite.
+2 Burnished Hart, Skyshroud Claim: I'm adding in some X-spells and some cards with tricky mana costs, so some mana fixing/ramp was due to come in.
+1 Cytoplast Root-Kin: I've wanted to put this back in the deck since I took it out.
+4 Genesis Hydra, Primordial Hydra, Heroes' Bane, Hydra Broodmaster: I've been wanting to try out some of the Hydras to see how they work out.
+2 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled: These creatures can grow to epic proportions in this deck and dole out lots of ancillary damage.
11/21/2014:
+1 Cauldron of Souls - I liked this suggestion a lot.
+1 Contagion Engine - I like the Proliferate cards and this is slightly better than Plaguemaw Beast.
+1 Fertilid - This is the exact kind of card that this deck wants.
-1 Fresh Meat - This is redundant with Cauldron and serves a similar purpose.
-1 Caller of the Claw - Same as Fresh Meat
-1 Saproling Burst - Not good enough as a token only producer
3/9/2018:
+1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc, -1 Skyshroud Claim - I felt like I need to swap Growing Rites with a ramp spell
+1 Path of Discovery, -1 Primeval Bounty - I felt like I needed to cut a "do nothing" card to fit this in and Primeval Bounty is an expensive "do nothing"
+1 Evolutionary Leap, -1 Genesis Hydra - Genesis Hydra was supposed to be some high-end card draw, but it was often just clunky and slow.
+1 Skullmulcher, -1 Primordial Hydra - Definite upgrade as Primordial Hydra is a fine beater, but he's just a beater that doesn't help out the rest of the deck.
+1 Grim Backwoods, -1 Vault of the Archangel - Just another way to up the number of ways to draw some cards in the late game.
This deck has gone under a major renovation for me. I had decided in the deck's origination that I would avoid most, if not all, of Ghave's most obvious combinations in an effort to do something more interesting and/or fun with the deck. This was hard to do seeing that Ghave seemingly combos with everything, but eventually I got the deck to the point where I was playing lots of value guys and abusing the various themes available. Coupled with the fact that there are tons of cards that are staples in the 3 colors, I ended up with a deck that was pulled in several directions; tokens, saprolings, +1/+1 counters, and "good stuff". The deck felt all over the place and didn't really do anything particularly well, so I decided that I would truly focus on the +1/+1 counter theme and eliminate all the other stuff that wasn't particularly fun.
The other big issue with the deck was that it didn't run enough removal. Since the deck was kinda slow and durdly, I knew I wanted to add a significant number of removal spells to the deck.
Cuts
-4 Eternal Witness, Genesis, Survival of the Fittest, Oversold Cemetery: This wasn't supposed to be a graveyard-centric deck, but I was constantly getting hosed by graveyard destruction spells while setting up graveyard loop shenanigans. The deck doesn't need or want to durdle around this much, so I cut the whole package. -1 Yavimaya Elder: I may change my mind on this one, but once the graveyard recursion theme was gone this was less of an option.
-1 Spike Feeder: Okay, so I changed my mind. Even though Spike Feeder plays with the +1/+1 counters, it pales in utility to Yavimaya Elder.
-4 Bitterblossom, Rhys, the Redeemed, Parallel Lives, Decree of Justice: I cut stuff that was only there for the token production.
-1 Mana Reflection: I had too many cards that didn't impact the board enough when they hit play. I can definitely use the mana, but I wanted the card slot more.
-3 Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Casualties of being a) too good with Doubling Season, and b) too concerned with making tokens.
-1 Triskelavus: These cards are actually quite good in this deck, but once I have one in play any others that I draw are redundant.
An awesome card that might work really well in this deck is Cauldron of Souls. Works very well with +1/+1 counters. So does Greater Good, but mana-less sac outlets is how things start breaking in Ghave...
An awesome card that might work really well in this deck is Cauldron of Souls. Works very well with +1/+1 counters. So does Greater Good, but mana-less sac outlets is how things start breaking in Ghave...
Cauldron of Souls is a great idea. The only two cards it doesn't work with are the two X-spell hydras, but it works so well with most of all my other creatures that this doesn't matter. When I assembled the original deck I went away from sac outlets plus undying/persist creatures very quickly, so Cauldron of Souls was never really an option for this deck. I'll have to figure out what to cut (perhaps Fecundity or Sigil Captain), but I like the idea of adding this card to the deck.
If I'm using it primarily for the +1/+1 counters, I'd rather just go with something less expensive. I run Ajani in my Lifegain deck where I use he 2nd +1 ability until I can hit the ultimate and essentially win, but it seems unlikely that I would use it here.
I like the idea of running a few Proliferate cards, but I would probably stick to Contagion Engine and Plaguemaw Beast. Both are a bit expensive for their effect, but they would be worth a shot to at least try out.
An awesome card that might work really well in this deck is Cauldron of Souls. Works very well with +1/+1 counters. So does Greater Good, but mana-less sac outlets is how things start breaking in Ghave...
Cauldron of Souls is a great idea. The only two cards it doesn't work with are the two X-spell hydras, but it works so well with most of all my other creatures that this doesn't matter. When I assembled the original deck I went away from sac outlets plus undying/persist creatures very quickly, so Cauldron of Souls was never really an option for this deck. I'll have to figure out what to cut (perhaps Fecundity or Sigil Captain), but I like the idea of adding this card to the deck.
So I tried this out and Cauldron of Souls is definitely in the deck. The only negative synergy is with Doubling Season, but there is so much other positive synergy that the effect is well worth the inclusion. I am still deciding as to what to move to add this in.
How do you feel about walkers? I know they're janky in EDh, but I feel like with token production you could defend them easily and you play doubling season. Plenty of them produce creature tokens as well. Elspeth, Sun's Champion seems like it'd be great since Ghave can dodge her board wipe and then climb back up after.
How do you feel about walkers? I know they're janky in EDh, but I feel like with token production you could defend them easily and you play doubling season. Plenty of them produce creature tokens as well. Elspeth, Sun's Champion seems like it'd be great since Ghave can dodge her board wipe and then climb back up after.
I like playing with Planeswalkers more than most people, but I actually just cut Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I tried to get the deck more focused on the +1/+1 counter theme rather than the both the counters and tokens. Obviously the deck still has lots of ways to generate tokens, but the token theme has been drastically reduced and its mostly in conjunction with +1/+1 counter production (Pentavus, Twilight Drover, etc.) or because they deal with Saprolings (Theolonite Hermit, Psychotrope Thallid). Playing with any or all of those Planeswalkers would be fine for anyone playing or testing Ghave, but I've moved on from them.
I still use Ajani Goldmane as his +1 ability is right up the alley of what this deck wants to do. Someone else suggested Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, but I think it is one mana too costly if I am just playing it for its first ability.
Forgive me if this is an unwelcome suggestion, but are you dead-set on this general?
The reason why I ask is because Ghave is going to come with a lot of baggage and expectations. Im not sure if you play with a regular playgroup or in a more random setting like a game store, but Ghave as a broken combo general is on everyone's radar, and it might be hard to avoid getting hated off if people dont know/believe that you are playing a noncombo version.
like you said, it's hard to NOT go infinite with ghave, even if you build him with the intention of staying away from that.
What about the possibility of switching the general to Ulasht, the Hate Seed? Red gives you a lot of really fun, albeit less competitive, options, and you can build a crazy deck without infinites that is really fun to play.
Very cool deck list. I plan on building something similar list in the near future.
Since you are running a token theme and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, have you considered including Fertilid, as part of your mana fixing package. I think Fertilid is a strong card on its own, but the ability to turn Fertilid into a Pay 2, target opponent loses 10 life and sacs a creature, with Ob, Nixilis on the field would be too fun.
Forgive me if this is an unwelcome suggestion, but are you dead-set on this general?
The reason why I ask is because Ghave is going to come with a lot of baggage and expectations. Im not sure if you play with a regular playgroup or in a more random setting like a game store, but Ghave as a broken combo general is on everyone's radar, and it might be hard to avoid getting hated off if people dont know/believe that you are playing a noncombo version.
like you said, it's hard to NOT go infinite with ghave, even if you build him with the intention of staying away from that.
What about the possibility of switching the general to Ulasht, the Hate Seed? Red gives you a lot of really fun, albeit less competitive, options, and you can build a crazy deck without infinites that is really fun to play.
I am dead set as Ghave being the general even though I know he comes with a bit of emotional baggage when I reveal him as my commander, but a lot of people that I play with already know me as someone who isn't "that guy" and who is always advocating a more social game.
Ghave also gives me the colors I want for this type of deck (although I'm currently assembling cards to do another +1/+1 counter themed deck in UG). Having access to Corpsejack Menace, Necropolis Regent, and to a lesser extent Grave Pact and some of the removal spells is a big deal for a deck that relies on tons of synergy in order to accomplish things. Ulasht would be a fine +1/+1 counter theme commander, but I already have a RG deck and I am trying to assemble a deck in each color combination (although I'm unsure as to whether I'll ever get there) and Ghave seemed more interesting than something like Doran or Karador.
Very cool deck list. I plan on building something similar list in the near future.
Since you are running a token theme and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, have you considered including Fertilid, as part of your mana fixing package. I think Fertilid is a strong card on its own, but the ability to turn Fertilid into a Pay 2, target opponent loses 10 life and sacs a creature, with Ob, Nixilis on the field would be too fun.
Fertilid is an excellent suggestion. When I first assembled this basic list for this deck I had it in there, but I cut it before I ever played with it due to deck space. I can surely see putting this in there to help ramp as its the perfect card for using +1/+1 counters. The combo with Ob Nixilis never dawned on me till you brought it up; that is actually quite awesome.
I thought the same thing when it was first spoiled, but the more I thought about it the more it didn't seem to be all it was cracked up to be. I still might try it, but the deck is already packed full of cards I don't want to cut and the list of cards that I want to add is long.
With all the sets that have been released since Khans of Tarkir that have had some sort of +1/+1 counter theme, this deck has had a ton of options for new cards. I tried a bunch of them with differing levels of success, but after going through several iterations of the deck it was clear that some really good cards were going tog get left out of the mix:
Commander 2014 Lifeblood Hydra - The deck has a mini-Hydra theme and the deck runs a sac outlet as its commander, so it almost always drew me cards when I was done smashing with it. If I had some ways to manipulate counters, it could be a huge windfall.
Fate Reforged Battlefront Krushok - Neat card that proved to be a little too narrow. Citadel Siege - You are always choosing Khans with this, and when you do it can really turn the tide of a game in your favor.
*Daghatar the Adamant - Great card for generating counters that has great synergy with all the Doubling Season effects. Dragonscale General - Seems like it should be great, but it never seemed to quite work out how I wanted it to. Elite Scaleguard - Was only ever okay.
Dragons of Tarkir
*Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit - With a deck that runs 35 normal creatures, this triggers all the time. Dromoka's Command - The added flexibility of a card like this that has a mode that adds a +1/+1 counter made that situationally amazing. Enduring Scalelord - This was a little too expensive for being an inconsistent performer.
*Inspiring Call - Great in-theme card draw with upside. Scale Blessing - Good card, but a little too situational compared to other options.
Magic Origins Hangarback Walker - Great little card, but very situation dependent. Managorger Hydra - The price is right for a creature that gets very large, very quickly if left unchecked. The fact that it has Trample makes it a winner (versus something like Forgotten Ancient) Patron of the Valiant - Fine card, but it ended up being outclassed by other options.
Battle for Zendikar Earthen Arms - I was actually quite impressed with this. Early on, it gets the counter production rolling, but given enough time to play this for its Awaken cost and things can get really interesting. All the Awaken cards fell into a similar camp, but this one having a default usage on-theme made it the most appealing. Endless One - Doesn't get any more efficient than that, although in the end efficiency isn't everything. Oran-Rief Hydra - Hydras are on theme and getting the counters for essentially free can be nice. It's well-costed for being a huge trampler. Retreat to Kazandu - Nice source of free counters, but ultimately you need your "do-nothings" to do more...
*Smothering Abomination - Combos nicely with Ghave for some card advantage shenanigans Undergrowth Champion - I thought I would like this, but it was sadly not very good. It's better than the Phantom Creatures from Judgment, but not good enough to run here.
Commander 2015
*Bloodspore Thrinax - Really strong card in this deck.
*Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest - Strong combo with Ghave and can really ramp up the counter production
*Verdant Confluence - I still think this is one mana too expensive, but this is a good card to have in the deck. When you need counters, its really good. When you are out of gas, it fills your hand. When you need more mana to fuel some Hydras in your hand, it ramps you.
Oath of the Gatewatch Gladehart Cavalry - Support:6 piqued my interest, but in the end you don't get enough for the 7 mana cost. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - I cut most of the Planeswalkers from the deck, and even though the -2 was on theme the card just wasn't good enough to justify running it.
Shadows Over Innistrad
Nothing
Eldritch Moon
*Collective Effort - Having one mode right on theme with two other modes that are solid makes this a great addition to the deck. Noosegraf Mob - This was an interesting card to have in the deck, as turning +1/+1 counters into 2/2 tokens was actually very good when Ghave was offline.
Conspiracy: Take the Crown
Nothing
Kaladesh
*Animation Module - Being able to pay 1 to make a Servo for pretty much anything this deck does end up being great for this deck.
*Armorcraft Judge - Awesome card draw spell Durable Handicraft - Sometimes you have extra mana to use and this is a great way to use it.
*Verdurous Gearhulk - Being able to distribute the counters to different creatures however I want really makes this shine.
Commander 2016 Evolutionary Escalation - I'm on the fence about this one. I hate giving my opponents anything, but it is cheaper and adds more counters per turn than anything else available.
*Opal Palace - I know this is a C13 card, but its inclusion here made me look to make sure I was running it. I wasn't. I fixed that immediately.
*Reyhan, Last of the Abzan - Perfect card for this deck, its like giving all your creatures Modular without the need to be an artifact creature.
Aether Revolt
*Ajani, Valiant Protector - This is so much better than any other planeswalker for producing +1/+1 counters, but it can also dig for a creature in a pinch. Inspiring Roar - Good card that the deck just doesn't have room for. Lifecrafter's Gift - Strictly better than Scale Blessing since you get to decide where the first counter goes. Oath of Ajani - The cheapest of the "everyone gets a counter" spells out there.
*Ridgescale Tusker - Easily the best of the "everyone gets a counter" effect out there.
*Rishkar, Peema Renegade - Getting a few counters plus giving all your spells virtual-Convoke is pretty amazing in this deck.
*Walking Ballista - A great way to convert counters into damage if Trike isn't available.
*Winding Constrictor - Hardened Scale (and then some) stapled onto a creature. Auto-include.
I see you aren't running any tutors but Grove is very limited in what it can find and shroud for your other enchantment is amazing. Aura Shards I'm amazed isn't in here honestly. Sadistic Hypnotist is a free sac outlet but the key is that it doesn't provide mana and that discard seals games. Intervention is just amazing at what it does.
I see you aren't running any tutors but Grove is very limited in what it can find and shroud for your other enchantment is amazing. Aura Shards I'm amazed isn't in here honestly. Sadistic Hypnotist is a free sac outlet but the key is that it doesn't provide mana and that discard seals games. Intervention is just amazing at what it does.
Sterling Grove - I like the card, but I don't feel compelled to run it here. Hexproof for my key enchantments is nice but not really necessary, and if I really wanted a tutor then I could just put in Demonic Tutor. Its a good suggestion, but not one I'm likely to add. Aura Shards - This is one of those cards that I know exists, I see it often, then I realize that I'm not running it in pretty much any deck... I'll have to fix that. Sadistic Hypnotist - This is a fantastic card that I use in my Nicol Bolas discard deck (which reminds me that I need to post this decklist). I've pretty much shaved the deck down to purely thematic cards and removal, so I don't think that it will ever make the cut here. This is one of those decklists that could easily be 200 cards, so tough choices need to get made. Heroic Intervention - You are the second person to suggest this card this week. I don't have any experience with this yet, but it seems like something to look into.
I resisted updating this deck during Amonkhet block because a deck that is focusing on +1/+1 counters does not play well with a block that is all about -1/-1 counters. I was also running into some issues with not enough card advantage in the deck. So it is time to get this thread up to date:
Amonkhet Quarry Hauler - This was the only card in the set that would work with the +1/+1 counter theme and it just isn't good enough. Vizier of the Menagerie - I had been considering adding a few card advantage engines to the deck, so I took this one out for a spin in several decks. With SDT, plenty of search effects to shuffle my library, and a relatively creature-dense deck this seemed like it would work out, but in the end I wanted to go with more synergistic options.
Hour of Devastation Uncage the Menagerie - I had forgotten that I tried this out here and actually liked it a lot. It is solid at X=3, 4, or 5 and it fills a need to get some more card draw into the deck.
Commander 2017 Zendikar Resurgent - A pretty awesome card that I tested in lieu of Mirari's Wake for a while. My results were mixed at best; either the card came down late after I had already emptied my hand and I was still living off the top, or I sandbagged creatures to play post-Zendikar Resurgent. Either way it interfered with the functionality of the deck, so I decided that something that cost this much needed to draw me the cards right away.
Ixalan Bellowing Aegisaur - I didn't actually try this, but I thought the interaction with this and something like Pestilence was worth mentioning. Growing Rites of Itlimoc - An awesome addition to pretty much any deck that runs enough creatures.
Rivals of Ixalan Path of Discovery - Amazing card in this deck that either adds to the +1/+1 counter shenanigans, lets me loot through my deck if need be, or lets me draw through land clumps. Pitiless Plunderer - Awesome synergy with Ghave and Doubling Season; can go infinite if you want. Strength of the Pack - I liked the idea, but it doesn't do enough to justify the casting cost. Tendershoot Dryad - Because Ghave makes Saprolings, I always pay extra attention to cards like this. If I played up that theme more, then this would stay in the deck, but otherwise there just isn't room for a card like this. The Immortal Sun - With no Planeswalkers in the deck and all four modes being relevant, I gave this a spin to drum up some card advantage. It occurs to me however that I should probably be reconsidering other options that need to stay in play over time (like Phyrexian Arena) that are cheaper. Twilight Prophet - I love this card, but again it is long-term card advantage that needs to stay in play over a long period to really matter.
I also went back and looked at other card draw options that would be more synergistic with my Commander. I was specifically looking for cards that behave like Fecundity and Smothering Abomination that would interact with Ghave. Some of the options I looked at:
- Lifecrafter's Bestiary - I love this card in Ezuri where I have tons of extra mana, but I felt I could do better than having to actually pay for my cards. It also doesn't trigger off Ghave putting Saprolings into play.
- Elemental Bond - This would trigger on about 27/37 creatures I run, with that number going up if I have some additional +1/+1 counter support from Bloodspore Thrinax or Juniper Order Ranger on the board. This would also need that added support to draw cards off Ghave which is a problem.
- Selvala, Heart of the Wilds - It's not guaranteed card draw and I still have an issue with zero synergy with Ghave.
- Skullmulcher - This would be one-shot, but I could conceivably use it to draw 4-5 cards by eating all the Saproling tokens from Ghave.
- Shamanic Revelation - Again, it would be one-shot but it would draw the same number of cards as Skullmucher without the creature sacrifice (albeit without leaving behind a huge creature afterwards either).
- Evolutionary Leap - Sac a Saproling to draw gas. I like the idea of this, especially given the cost.
- Vampiric Rites - I like this card from my Endrek Sahr deck, so I thought about trying it here.
- Harmonize, Painful Truths, Night's Whisper - I have to always ask whether I'm just better off sticking with tried but true cheaper options to draw cards.
In the end, I decided that I wanted to do the following:
+1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc, -1 Skyshroud Claim - I felt like I need to swap Growing Rites with a ramp spell
+1 Path of Discovery, -1 Primeval Bounty - I felt like I needed to cut a "do nothing" card to fit this in and Primeval Bounty is an expensive "do nothing"
+1 Evolutionary Leap, -1 Genesis Hydra - Genesis Hydra was supposed to be some high-end card draw, but it was often just clunky and slow.
+1 Skullmulcher, -1 Primordial Hydra - Definite upgrade as Primordial Hydra is a fine beater, but he's just a beater that doesn't help out the rest of the deck.
+1 Grim Backwoods, -1 Vault of the Archangel - Just another way to up the number of ways to draw some cards in the late game.
I've been having a lot of fun with the new cards in this deck, so it's time to update this thread with what I've been trying out:
Dominaria Fungal Plots - Since I'm not doing any creature recursion in this deck, exiling creatures from my graveyard is not a big deal. The big deal here is that it can turn Saprolings into cards for free, albeit at a 1-for-2 rate. I would have to decide whether this is better than Vampiric Rites (which costs mana to use, but draws cards 1-for-1 and isn't limited to just Saprolings), or whether I generate enough other Saprolings to make this worthwhile (right now, I only make Saprolings with Mycoloth, Psychotrope Thallid, and of course Ghave, Guru of Spores) Saproling Migration - With all the Saproling stuff going on, I had to decide whether I wanted to fit in a mini-Saproling tribal theme. I decided that although Ghave is near perfect for a Saproling/Fungus tribal deck, I was not interested in converting this deck to that theme. Shalai, Voice of Plenty - Although the ability is expensive, the deck is set up to be able to take huge advantage of even 1 or 2 activations, and given that it also grants Hexproof to the rest of your army makes this a relative no-brainer. Slimefoot, the Stowaway - Even though I'm not interested in making this Saproling Tribal.dec, I am interested in turning all those Ghave Saproling sacrifices into life drain on each opponent. This is a solid addition to the Ghave arsenal. Song of Freyalise - There isn't any danger of going infinite with this, and the fact that its in-theme several ways made me want to try this out. It doesn't really work out as well as I hoped it would. Wild Onslaught - I liked this card at first glance, but it's not as flexible as Collective Effort, nor does it have additional upside like Regna's Sanction, nor is it as mana efficient as Strength of the Pack (and if I'm going to kick this for 8 mana, I might as well play Decree of Savagery to get 4 counters for 9 mana). I would think that I would go back to Abzan Ascendancy, Ajani Goldmane, or Lifecrafter's Gift before going with this.
Dominaria Krav, the Unredeemed - I think that this is the best of the newer card draw engines that synergize with Ghave, and I see this having a spot long-term in the deck. Pir, Imaginative Rascal - I'm pretty sure that any card with this effect will automatically have a place in this deck. Regna's Sanction - This is a solid addition to this deck; it's much better than a lot of other options because it allows your team to connect in the face of a large opposing army. Together Forever - I really, really like the idea of this card and I'm going to try and find a way to keep it long-term, but I need to cut a different "do nothing" to make room. The Crowd Goes Wild - I think that this could be okay to run, but I honestly don't feel that this gives the deck anything that it doesn't already have in a way that is better than what I run.
So in the end, the changes look like the following:
+1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty, -1 Daghatar, the Adamant - Moving counters around with a counter increasing effect is really good, but I rarely had the oppotunity to activate this when I wanted.
+1 Slimefoot, the Stowaway, -1 Pentavus - Removing Pentavus is mostly a cost reduction move as it is really good with the counter doublers, but removing high CMC stuff is almost always the right move.
+1 Krav, the Unredeemed, -1 Smothering Abomination - I don't generate the same kind of sacrificial fodder with this deck as I do with Endrek Sahr, so when I do play Ghave and make tokens I usually want to use them right away. Krav fits better with that.
+1 Pir, Imaginative Rascal, -1 Vigor - Vigor is too passive for my tastes, even though it's great tech against some decks (red-based control or mill decks)
+1 Together Forever, -1 Death's Presence - Death's Presence is a great card, but it is expensive and needs certain conditions to be really good. I like that the deck still has this effect with Reyhan, Last of the Abzan so this is safe to pull.
Ghave, Guru of Spores just screams "combo me with _________", and even after just looking into what is possible for a few minutes its becomes fairly easy to figure out a bajillion ways to abuse the hell out of it.
For cards like this, I find it is as difficult (if not more difficult) a task to not break Ghave than it is to go inifinte in any of the many ways this is possible. In fact, even trying to remove all the infinite combos, I find that there are certain interactions that can go infinite without even trying.
This deck is a much more relaxed version, trying more to utilize Ghave's abilities to synergize with whatever the rest of the deck is doing rather than combo-ing out. There are many ways to do this, but I chose to play up the +1/+1 counter theme. The result is pretty interesting to play.
Updated through Battlebond 6/12/2018
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Creatures - 36
1 Walking Ballista
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gyre Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Winding Constrictor
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan
1 Slimefoot, the Stowaway
1 Pir, Imaginative Rascal
1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
1 Renegade Krasis
1 Fertilid
1 Psychotrope Thallid
1 Corpsejack Menace
1 Cytoplast Root-kin
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Bloodspore Thrinax
1 Armorcraft Judge
1 Etched Oracle
1 Kalonian Hydra
1 Heroes' Bane
1 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
1 Mycoloth
1 Skullmulcher
1 Juniper Order Ranger
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Krav, the Unredeemed
1 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
1 Ridgescale Tusker
1 Thopter Squadron
1 Triskelion
1 Necropolis Regent
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Inspiring Call
1 Utter End
Sorceries - 8
1 Farseek
1 Rampant Growth
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Collective Effort
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Promise of Power
Enchantments - 11
1 Hardened Scales
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Together Forever
1 Fecundity
1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc
1 Path of Discovery
1 Grave Pact
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Doubling Season
1 Primal Vigor
1 Mirari's Wake
Artifacts - 4
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Skullclamp
1 Contagion Engine
Lands - 36
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Krosan Verge
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Fetid Heath
1 Twilight Mire
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Command Tower
1 Opal Palace
1 Temple of the False God
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Gavony Township
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Gaea's Cradle
5 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Gutter Grime
1 Druidic Satchel
1 Conqueror's Pledge
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Protean Hydra
1 Harmonize
1 Necrogenesis
1 Bitterblossom
The deck can probably use a bit of streamlining and can use some amount of additional removal spells (Beast Within, Path to Exile, Necrotic Sliver and Pernicious Deed all come to mind). There are also a ton of "staples" like Demonic Tutor, Sylvan Library, Necropotence, etc. that can easily find their way into the deck if something doesn't strike your fancy.
10/20/2014:
Cuts
-4 Eternal Witness, Genesis, Survival of the Fittest, Oversold Cemetery: This wasn't supposed to be a graveyard-centric deck, but I was constantly getting hosed by graveyard destruction spells while setting up graveyard loop shenanigans. The deck doesn't need or want to durdle around this much, so I cut the whole package.
-1 Yavimaya Elder: I may change my mind on this one, but once the graveyard recursion theme was gone this was less of an option.-1 Spike Feeder: Okay, so I changed my mind. Even though Spike Feeder plays with the +1/+1 counters, it pales in utility to Yavimaya Elder.
-4 Bitterblossom, Rhys, the Redeemed, Parallel Lives, Decree of Justice: I cut stuff that was only there for the token production.
-1 Mana Reflection: I had too many cards that didn't impact the board enough when they hit play. I can definitely use the mana, but I wanted the card slot more.
-3 Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Casualties of being a) too good with Doubling Season, and b) too concerned with making tokens.
-1 Triskelavus: These cards are actually quite good in this deck, but once I have one in play any others that I draw are redundant.
Adds
+1 Hardened Scales: Right at home in a +1/+1 counter deck.
+4 Utter End, Beast Within, Path to Exile, Shriekmaw: These were added to shore up my removal suite.
+2 Burnished Hart, Skyshroud Claim: I'm adding in some X-spells and some cards with tricky mana costs, so some mana fixing/ramp was due to come in.
+1 Cytoplast Root-Kin: I've wanted to put this back in the deck since I took it out.
+4 Genesis Hydra, Primordial Hydra, Heroes' Bane, Hydra Broodmaster: I've been wanting to try out some of the Hydras to see how they work out.
+2 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled: These creatures can grow to epic proportions in this deck and dole out lots of ancillary damage.
11/21/2014:
+1 Cauldron of Souls - I liked this suggestion a lot.
+1 Contagion Engine - I like the Proliferate cards and this is slightly better than Plaguemaw Beast.
+1 Fertilid - This is the exact kind of card that this deck wants.
-1 Fresh Meat - This is redundant with Cauldron and serves a similar purpose.
-1 Caller of the Claw - Same as Fresh Meat
-1 Saproling Burst - Not good enough as a token only producer
3/28/2017:
-1 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree - I needed to remove a land for Opal Palace
-1 Ajani Goldmane - Replaced with better counter producers
-1 Cauldron of Souls - I ended up not liking this as much as I thought I would
-1 Beast Within - Removed when I added Collective Effort
-1 Phyrexian Arena - I needed to shave an enchantment and I added other card draw to the deck
-1 Angel of Despair - I needed to shave a high CMC card and this is the worst removal spell I run
-1 Ob Nixilis, Unshackled - Didn't fit the theme well enough
-1 Hydra Broodmaster - Interesting card, but there are better options
-1 Polukranos, World Eater - I have better removal options and better uses of the mana
-1 Theolonite Hermit - This was only in because it was a Saproling lord and Ghave makes Saprolings
-1 Sigil Captain - With all the changes, this never triggered anymore
-1 Solemn Simulacrum - Tough cut, but it had to be done for space
-1 Burnished Hart - Another tough cut, but I need the space
-1 Yavimaya Elder - Another staple that had to go
-1 Twilight Drover - A good card that just gets outclassed.
+1 Opal Palace
+1 Walking Ballista
+1 Winding Constrictor
+1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
+1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan
+1 Daghatar the Adamant
+1 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
+1 Smothering Abomination
+1 Bloodspore Thrinax
+1 Armorcraft Judge
+1 Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
+1 Verdurous Gearhulk
+1 Ridgescale Tusker
+1 Inspiring Call
+1 Collective Effort
3/9/2018:
+1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc, -1 Skyshroud Claim - I felt like I need to swap Growing Rites with a ramp spell
+1 Path of Discovery, -1 Primeval Bounty - I felt like I needed to cut a "do nothing" card to fit this in and Primeval Bounty is an expensive "do nothing"
+1 Evolutionary Leap, -1 Genesis Hydra - Genesis Hydra was supposed to be some high-end card draw, but it was often just clunky and slow.
+1 Skullmulcher, -1 Primordial Hydra - Definite upgrade as Primordial Hydra is a fine beater, but he's just a beater that doesn't help out the rest of the deck.
+1 Grim Backwoods, -1 Vault of the Archangel - Just another way to up the number of ways to draw some cards in the late game.
6/12/2018:
+1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty, -1 Daghatar, the Adamant
+1 Slimefoot, the Stowaway, -1 Pentavus
+1 Krav, the Unredeemed, -1 Smothering Abomination
+1 Pir, Imaginative Rascal, -1 Vigor
+1 Together Forever, -1 Death's Presence
The other big issue with the deck was that it didn't run enough removal. Since the deck was kinda slow and durdly, I knew I wanted to add a significant number of removal spells to the deck.
Cuts
-4 Eternal Witness, Genesis, Survival of the Fittest, Oversold Cemetery: This wasn't supposed to be a graveyard-centric deck, but I was constantly getting hosed by graveyard destruction spells while setting up graveyard loop shenanigans. The deck doesn't need or want to durdle around this much, so I cut the whole package.
-1 Yavimaya Elder: I may change my mind on this one, but once the graveyard recursion theme was gone this was less of an option.-1 Spike Feeder: Okay, so I changed my mind. Even though Spike Feeder plays with the +1/+1 counters, it pales in utility to Yavimaya Elder.
-4 Bitterblossom, Rhys, the Redeemed, Parallel Lives, Decree of Justice: I cut stuff that was only there for the token production.
-1 Mana Reflection: I had too many cards that didn't impact the board enough when they hit play. I can definitely use the mana, but I wanted the card slot more.
-3 Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion: Casualties of being a) too good with Doubling Season, and b) too concerned with making tokens.
-1 Triskelavus: These cards are actually quite good in this deck, but once I have one in play any others that I draw are redundant.
Adds
+1 Hardened Scales: Right at home in a +1/+1 counter deck.
+4 Utter End, Beast Within, Path to Exile, Shriekmaw: These were added to shore up my removal suite.
+2 Burnished Hart, Skyshroud Claim: I'm adding in some X-spells and some cards with tricky mana costs, so some mana fixing/ramp was due to come in.
+1 Cytoplast Root-Kin: I've wanted to put this back in the deck since I took it out.
+4 Genesis Hydra, Primordial Hydra, Heroes' Bane, Hydra Broodmaster: I've been wanting to try out some of the Hydras to see how they work out.
+2 Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled: These creatures can grow to epic proportions in this deck and dole out lots of ancillary damage.
Outside looking in
Abzan Ascendancy: This card seemed like a slam dunk, but the more I thought about it the more I think its not good enough.
Hooded Hydra, Vastwood Hydra, Protean Hydra: I like these, but there are only so many X-spell Hydras I can put into one deck.
Solidarity of Heroes: Doubling +1/+1 counters seems awesome, but what would I take out?
Incremental Growth, Travel Preparations, Increasing Savagery: All awesome +1/+1 counter producers for the cost, but there is just not enough room.
I play Mikaeus, the Lunarch, not Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. White Mike has good synergy with Triskelion, but it does not go infinite like Black Mike does.
Cauldron of Souls is a great idea. The only two cards it doesn't work with are the two X-spell hydras, but it works so well with most of all my other creatures that this doesn't matter. When I assembled the original deck I went away from sac outlets plus undying/persist creatures very quickly, so Cauldron of Souls was never really an option for this deck. I'll have to figure out what to cut (perhaps Fecundity or Sigil Captain), but I like the idea of adding this card to the deck.
Momentous Fall, Life's Legacy or Garruk, Primal Hunter to draw cards off of your mass +1/+1 counter dude seems awesome, especially if you can't run Greater Good.
If I'm using it primarily for the +1/+1 counters, I'd rather just go with something less expensive. I run Ajani in my Lifegain deck where I use he 2nd +1 ability until I can hit the ultimate and essentially win, but it seems unlikely that I would use it here.
I like the idea of running a few Proliferate cards, but I would probably stick to Contagion Engine and Plaguemaw Beast. Both are a bit expensive for their effect, but they would be worth a shot to at least try out.
The deck can probably use another card draw engine or two. Right now I have Phyrexian Arena, Fecundity, Skullclamp, Etched Oracle, and Psychotrope Thallid as my only card drawing engines, plus Promise of Power as a card draw spell. I was already considering adding in Necropotence since the removal of Oversold Cemetery took away a card advantage engine. I'm also thinking that running Greater Good is probably safe here.
So I tried this out and Cauldron of Souls is definitely in the deck. The only negative synergy is with Doubling Season, but there is so much other positive synergy that the effect is well worth the inclusion. I am still deciding as to what to move to add this in.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
I like playing with Planeswalkers more than most people, but I actually just cut Garruk Wildspeaker, Elspeth Tirel, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion. I tried to get the deck more focused on the +1/+1 counter theme rather than the both the counters and tokens. Obviously the deck still has lots of ways to generate tokens, but the token theme has been drastically reduced and its mostly in conjunction with +1/+1 counter production (Pentavus, Twilight Drover, etc.) or because they deal with Saprolings (Theolonite Hermit, Psychotrope Thallid). Playing with any or all of those Planeswalkers would be fine for anyone playing or testing Ghave, but I've moved on from them.
I still use Ajani Goldmane as his +1 ability is right up the alley of what this deck wants to do. Someone else suggested Ajani, Mentor of Heroes, but I think it is one mana too costly if I am just playing it for its first ability.
The reason why I ask is because Ghave is going to come with a lot of baggage and expectations. Im not sure if you play with a regular playgroup or in a more random setting like a game store, but Ghave as a broken combo general is on everyone's radar, and it might be hard to avoid getting hated off if people dont know/believe that you are playing a noncombo version.
like you said, it's hard to NOT go infinite with ghave, even if you build him with the intention of staying away from that.
What about the possibility of switching the general to Ulasht, the Hate Seed? Red gives you a lot of really fun, albeit less competitive, options, and you can build a crazy deck without infinites that is really fun to play.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Since you are running a token theme and Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, have you considered including Fertilid, as part of your mana fixing package. I think Fertilid is a strong card on its own, but the ability to turn Fertilid into a Pay 2, target opponent loses 10 life and sacs a creature, with Ob, Nixilis on the field would be too fun.
Also, Abzan Ascendancy seems like a strong card in this theme.
I am dead set as Ghave being the general even though I know he comes with a bit of emotional baggage when I reveal him as my commander, but a lot of people that I play with already know me as someone who isn't "that guy" and who is always advocating a more social game.
Ghave also gives me the colors I want for this type of deck (although I'm currently assembling cards to do another +1/+1 counter themed deck in UG). Having access to Corpsejack Menace, Necropolis Regent, and to a lesser extent Grave Pact and some of the removal spells is a big deal for a deck that relies on tons of synergy in order to accomplish things. Ulasht would be a fine +1/+1 counter theme commander, but I already have a RG deck and I am trying to assemble a deck in each color combination (although I'm unsure as to whether I'll ever get there) and Ghave seemed more interesting than something like Doran or Karador.
Fertilid is an excellent suggestion. When I first assembled this basic list for this deck I had it in there, but I cut it before I ever played with it due to deck space. I can surely see putting this in there to help ramp as its the perfect card for using +1/+1 counters. The combo with Ob Nixilis never dawned on me till you brought it up; that is actually quite awesome.
I thought the same thing when it was first spoiled, but the more I thought about it the more it didn't seem to be all it was cracked up to be. I still might try it, but the deck is already packed full of cards I don't want to cut and the list of cards that I want to add is long.
Commander 2014
Lifeblood Hydra - The deck has a mini-Hydra theme and the deck runs a sac outlet as its commander, so it almost always drew me cards when I was done smashing with it. If I had some ways to manipulate counters, it could be a huge windfall.
Fate Reforged
Battlefront Krushok - Neat card that proved to be a little too narrow.
Citadel Siege - You are always choosing Khans with this, and when you do it can really turn the tide of a game in your favor.
*Daghatar the Adamant - Great card for generating counters that has great synergy with all the Doubling Season effects.
Dragonscale General - Seems like it should be great, but it never seemed to quite work out how I wanted it to.
Elite Scaleguard - Was only ever okay.
Dragons of Tarkir
*Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit - With a deck that runs 35 normal creatures, this triggers all the time.
Dromoka's Command - The added flexibility of a card like this that has a mode that adds a +1/+1 counter made that situationally amazing.
Enduring Scalelord - This was a little too expensive for being an inconsistent performer.
*Inspiring Call - Great in-theme card draw with upside.
Scale Blessing - Good card, but a little too situational compared to other options.
Magic Origins
Hangarback Walker - Great little card, but very situation dependent.
Managorger Hydra - The price is right for a creature that gets very large, very quickly if left unchecked. The fact that it has Trample makes it a winner (versus something like Forgotten Ancient)
Patron of the Valiant - Fine card, but it ended up being outclassed by other options.
Battle for Zendikar
Earthen Arms - I was actually quite impressed with this. Early on, it gets the counter production rolling, but given enough time to play this for its Awaken cost and things can get really interesting. All the Awaken cards fell into a similar camp, but this one having a default usage on-theme made it the most appealing.
Endless One - Doesn't get any more efficient than that, although in the end efficiency isn't everything.
Oran-Rief Hydra - Hydras are on theme and getting the counters for essentially free can be nice. It's well-costed for being a huge trampler.
Retreat to Kazandu - Nice source of free counters, but ultimately you need your "do-nothings" to do more...
*Smothering Abomination - Combos nicely with Ghave for some card advantage shenanigans
Undergrowth Champion - I thought I would like this, but it was sadly not very good. It's better than the Phantom Creatures from Judgment, but not good enough to run here.
Commander 2015
*Bloodspore Thrinax - Really strong card in this deck.
*Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest - Strong combo with Ghave and can really ramp up the counter production
*Verdant Confluence - I still think this is one mana too expensive, but this is a good card to have in the deck. When you need counters, its really good. When you are out of gas, it fills your hand. When you need more mana to fuel some Hydras in your hand, it ramps you.
Oath of the Gatewatch
Gladehart Cavalry - Support:6 piqued my interest, but in the end you don't get enough for the 7 mana cost.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - I cut most of the Planeswalkers from the deck, and even though the -2 was on theme the card just wasn't good enough to justify running it.
Shadows Over Innistrad
Nothing
Eldritch Moon
*Collective Effort - Having one mode right on theme with two other modes that are solid makes this a great addition to the deck.
Noosegraf Mob - This was an interesting card to have in the deck, as turning +1/+1 counters into 2/2 tokens was actually very good when Ghave was offline.
Conspiracy: Take the Crown
Nothing
Kaladesh
*Animation Module - Being able to pay 1 to make a Servo for pretty much anything this deck does end up being great for this deck.
*Armorcraft Judge - Awesome card draw spell
Durable Handicraft - Sometimes you have extra mana to use and this is a great way to use it.
*Verdurous Gearhulk - Being able to distribute the counters to different creatures however I want really makes this shine.
Commander 2016
Evolutionary Escalation - I'm on the fence about this one. I hate giving my opponents anything, but it is cheaper and adds more counters per turn than anything else available.
*Opal Palace - I know this is a C13 card, but its inclusion here made me look to make sure I was running it. I wasn't. I fixed that immediately.
*Reyhan, Last of the Abzan - Perfect card for this deck, its like giving all your creatures Modular without the need to be an artifact creature.
Aether Revolt
*Ajani, Valiant Protector - This is so much better than any other planeswalker for producing +1/+1 counters, but it can also dig for a creature in a pinch.
Inspiring Roar - Good card that the deck just doesn't have room for.
Lifecrafter's Gift - Strictly better than Scale Blessing since you get to decide where the first counter goes.
Oath of Ajani - The cheapest of the "everyone gets a counter" spells out there.
*Ridgescale Tusker - Easily the best of the "everyone gets a counter" effect out there.
*Rishkar, Peema Renegade - Getting a few counters plus giving all your spells virtual-Convoke is pretty amazing in this deck.
*Walking Ballista - A great way to convert counters into damage if Trike isn't available.
*Winding Constrictor - Hardened Scale (and then some) stapled onto a creature. Auto-include.
I see you aren't running any tutors but Grove is very limited in what it can find and shroud for your other enchantment is amazing. Aura Shards I'm amazed isn't in here honestly. Sadistic Hypnotist is a free sac outlet but the key is that it doesn't provide mana and that discard seals games. Intervention is just amazing at what it does.
Sterling Grove - I like the card, but I don't feel compelled to run it here. Hexproof for my key enchantments is nice but not really necessary, and if I really wanted a tutor then I could just put in Demonic Tutor. Its a good suggestion, but not one I'm likely to add.
Aura Shards - This is one of those cards that I know exists, I see it often, then I realize that I'm not running it in pretty much any deck... I'll have to fix that.
Sadistic Hypnotist - This is a fantastic card that I use in my Nicol Bolas discard deck (which reminds me that I need to post this decklist). I've pretty much shaved the deck down to purely thematic cards and removal, so I don't think that it will ever make the cut here. This is one of those decklists that could easily be 200 cards, so tough choices need to get made.
Heroic Intervention - You are the second person to suggest this card this week. I don't have any experience with this yet, but it seems like something to look into.
Amonkhet
Quarry Hauler - This was the only card in the set that would work with the +1/+1 counter theme and it just isn't good enough.
Vizier of the Menagerie - I had been considering adding a few card advantage engines to the deck, so I took this one out for a spin in several decks. With SDT, plenty of search effects to shuffle my library, and a relatively creature-dense deck this seemed like it would work out, but in the end I wanted to go with more synergistic options.
Hour of Devastation
Uncage the Menagerie - I had forgotten that I tried this out here and actually liked it a lot. It is solid at X=3, 4, or 5 and it fills a need to get some more card draw into the deck.
Commander 2017
Zendikar Resurgent - A pretty awesome card that I tested in lieu of Mirari's Wake for a while. My results were mixed at best; either the card came down late after I had already emptied my hand and I was still living off the top, or I sandbagged creatures to play post-Zendikar Resurgent. Either way it interfered with the functionality of the deck, so I decided that something that cost this much needed to draw me the cards right away.
Ixalan
Bellowing Aegisaur - I didn't actually try this, but I thought the interaction with this and something like Pestilence was worth mentioning.
Growing Rites of Itlimoc - An awesome addition to pretty much any deck that runs enough creatures.
Rivals of Ixalan
Path of Discovery - Amazing card in this deck that either adds to the +1/+1 counter shenanigans, lets me loot through my deck if need be, or lets me draw through land clumps.
Pitiless Plunderer - Awesome synergy with Ghave and Doubling Season; can go infinite if you want.
Strength of the Pack - I liked the idea, but it doesn't do enough to justify the casting cost.
Tendershoot Dryad - Because Ghave makes Saprolings, I always pay extra attention to cards like this. If I played up that theme more, then this would stay in the deck, but otherwise there just isn't room for a card like this.
The Immortal Sun - With no Planeswalkers in the deck and all four modes being relevant, I gave this a spin to drum up some card advantage. It occurs to me however that I should probably be reconsidering other options that need to stay in play over time (like Phyrexian Arena) that are cheaper.
Twilight Prophet - I love this card, but again it is long-term card advantage that needs to stay in play over a long period to really matter.
I also went back and looked at other card draw options that would be more synergistic with my Commander. I was specifically looking for cards that behave like Fecundity and Smothering Abomination that would interact with Ghave. Some of the options I looked at:
- Lifecrafter's Bestiary - I love this card in Ezuri where I have tons of extra mana, but I felt I could do better than having to actually pay for my cards. It also doesn't trigger off Ghave putting Saprolings into play.
- Elemental Bond - This would trigger on about 27/37 creatures I run, with that number going up if I have some additional +1/+1 counter support from Bloodspore Thrinax or Juniper Order Ranger on the board. This would also need that added support to draw cards off Ghave which is a problem.
- Selvala, Heart of the Wilds - It's not guaranteed card draw and I still have an issue with zero synergy with Ghave.
- Skullmulcher - This would be one-shot, but I could conceivably use it to draw 4-5 cards by eating all the Saproling tokens from Ghave.
- Shamanic Revelation - Again, it would be one-shot but it would draw the same number of cards as Skullmucher without the creature sacrifice (albeit without leaving behind a huge creature afterwards either).
- Evolutionary Leap - Sac a Saproling to draw gas. I like the idea of this, especially given the cost.
- Vampiric Rites - I like this card from my Endrek Sahr deck, so I thought about trying it here.
- Harmonize, Painful Truths, Night's Whisper - I have to always ask whether I'm just better off sticking with tried but true cheaper options to draw cards.
In the end, I decided that I wanted to do the following:
+1 Growing Rites of Itlimoc, -1 Skyshroud Claim - I felt like I need to swap Growing Rites with a ramp spell
+1 Path of Discovery, -1 Primeval Bounty - I felt like I needed to cut a "do nothing" card to fit this in and Primeval Bounty is an expensive "do nothing"
+1 Evolutionary Leap, -1 Genesis Hydra - Genesis Hydra was supposed to be some high-end card draw, but it was often just clunky and slow.
+1 Skullmulcher, -1 Primordial Hydra - Definite upgrade as Primordial Hydra is a fine beater, but he's just a beater that doesn't help out the rest of the deck.
+1 Grim Backwoods, -1 Vault of the Archangel - Just another way to up the number of ways to draw some cards in the late game.
Dominaria
Fungal Plots - Since I'm not doing any creature recursion in this deck, exiling creatures from my graveyard is not a big deal. The big deal here is that it can turn Saprolings into cards for free, albeit at a 1-for-2 rate. I would have to decide whether this is better than Vampiric Rites (which costs mana to use, but draws cards 1-for-1 and isn't limited to just Saprolings), or whether I generate enough other Saprolings to make this worthwhile (right now, I only make Saprolings with Mycoloth, Psychotrope Thallid, and of course Ghave, Guru of Spores)
Saproling Migration - With all the Saproling stuff going on, I had to decide whether I wanted to fit in a mini-Saproling tribal theme. I decided that although Ghave is near perfect for a Saproling/Fungus tribal deck, I was not interested in converting this deck to that theme.
Shalai, Voice of Plenty - Although the ability is expensive, the deck is set up to be able to take huge advantage of even 1 or 2 activations, and given that it also grants Hexproof to the rest of your army makes this a relative no-brainer.
Slimefoot, the Stowaway - Even though I'm not interested in making this Saproling Tribal.dec, I am interested in turning all those Ghave Saproling sacrifices into life drain on each opponent. This is a solid addition to the Ghave arsenal.
Song of Freyalise - There isn't any danger of going infinite with this, and the fact that its in-theme several ways made me want to try this out. It doesn't really work out as well as I hoped it would.
Wild Onslaught - I liked this card at first glance, but it's not as flexible as Collective Effort, nor does it have additional upside like Regna's Sanction, nor is it as mana efficient as Strength of the Pack (and if I'm going to kick this for 8 mana, I might as well play Decree of Savagery to get 4 counters for 9 mana). I would think that I would go back to Abzan Ascendancy, Ajani Goldmane, or Lifecrafter's Gift before going with this.
Dominaria
Krav, the Unredeemed - I think that this is the best of the newer card draw engines that synergize with Ghave, and I see this having a spot long-term in the deck.
Pir, Imaginative Rascal - I'm pretty sure that any card with this effect will automatically have a place in this deck.
Regna's Sanction - This is a solid addition to this deck; it's much better than a lot of other options because it allows your team to connect in the face of a large opposing army.
Together Forever - I really, really like the idea of this card and I'm going to try and find a way to keep it long-term, but I need to cut a different "do nothing" to make room.
The Crowd Goes Wild - I think that this could be okay to run, but I honestly don't feel that this gives the deck anything that it doesn't already have in a way that is better than what I run.
So in the end, the changes look like the following:
+1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty, -1 Daghatar, the Adamant - Moving counters around with a counter increasing effect is really good, but I rarely had the oppotunity to activate this when I wanted.
+1 Slimefoot, the Stowaway, -1 Pentavus - Removing Pentavus is mostly a cost reduction move as it is really good with the counter doublers, but removing high CMC stuff is almost always the right move.
+1 Krav, the Unredeemed, -1 Smothering Abomination - I don't generate the same kind of sacrificial fodder with this deck as I do with Endrek Sahr, so when I do play Ghave and make tokens I usually want to use them right away. Krav fits better with that.
+1 Pir, Imaginative Rascal, -1 Vigor - Vigor is too passive for my tastes, even though it's great tech against some decks (red-based control or mill decks)
+1 Together Forever, -1 Death's Presence - Death's Presence is a great card, but it is expensive and needs certain conditions to be really good. I like that the deck still has this effect with Reyhan, Last of the Abzan so this is safe to pull.
So right now, that's everything except Regna's Sanction which I'm flip-flopping about exchanging with Path of Discovery or Growing Rites of Itlimoc.