Lyonhaert is correct. However, you can just activate Necropotence at your opponent's endstep, and win on your own upkeep. This gives your opponents a very narrow window (no sorcery speed interaction!) in which to deal damage, and you can always use Teferi's Protection to save yourself, and win on your next upkeep. I think the biggest danger here is Krosan Grip .
Near-death Experience also gets bonus points for being super cool. Winning while at 1 life is always fun.
I understand why you would want to, but I kind of hate alternate win cons. They take away the feeling for me of actually playing (same with instant win combos).
That's totally fair! Would you mind sharing how you normally close out games? Do people scoop, or is there a specific interaction that brings the game to an end?
I'm really curious just because my playgroup is super stubborn and will refuse to scoop until I actually win the game, no matter how overwhelming the advantage (I would personally prefer to just shuffle up and play again!).
That's totally fair! Would you mind sharing how you normally close out games? Do people scoop, or is there a specific interaction that brings the game to an end?
I'm really curious just because my playgroup is super stubborn and will refuse to scoop until I actually win the game, no matter how overwhelming the advantage (I would personally prefer to just shuffle up and play again!).
In general, yeah my playgroup does scoop. So I can see where you're coming from. Certain planeswalkers ultimating will provide a win, eventually. Some of them can win you the game on the spot, usually through direct damage or generating tokens. Also, I know you mentioned stuff like Moat/The Abyss, fortunately you can still get around those with Sliver Queen out and close the game through general damage as well.
I do see what you're saying though, there's isn't many actual win cons in the deck, so it can be slow.
My play group will usally scoop to doubling season and an ultimate of a few choice walkers, both tamiyo, jace aot, samut the tested, ugin.
They will also scoop if i bank 2 extra turns with a walker or two on the battlefield.
Its actually kind of irrataing that they do, I have some sweet convoluted lines to end the game, but its always scoopsville when it looks like i can win.
What do you guys think about Invoke Prejudice ? The mana cost is nuts, but the effect is a 10/10 in this deck. Shuts down creature based decks really hard.
I never really considered this card due to the art and artist, but I'm thinking I'll just use a proxy that changes the art and artist name.
What do you guys think about Invoke Prejudice ? The mana cost is nuts, but the effect is a 10/10 in this deck. Shuts down creature based decks really hard.
I never really considered this card due to the art and artist, but I'm thinking I'll just use a proxy that changes the art and artist name.
Beyond the actual price of the card, it's also UUUU.. Pretty hard to cast in a 5 color deck. Let me know how it goes if you do run it, but I doubt I'll ever pick it up now lol
Cardkingdom had it at $175, so I used some credit and bit the bullet haha. I think my deck is shifting towards esper over time, with Red and Green acting as supporting colors. I've made lots of changes to the mana base to support these changes:
The effect of Invoke Prejudice is awesome at basically every point in the game, so there's not to much of a rush to cast it. Between Chromatic Lantern, Mirrari's Wake, and a good mana base I think casting IP on turns 5 or 6 is definitely doable. (You run Wargate, so it's even easier!)
In terms of cuts I would definitely recommend cutting Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Dovin Baan. I recently cut them myself for being too low-impact. The ultimates don't win you the game, and the other abilities are not exactly amazing. Also, I think Will Kenrith is better than Dovin in basically every way, it's a great one-to-one replacement.
Right now I'm testing Rowan Kenrith . It's certainly not amazing, but the -2 and the -8 are alright, and Will Kenrith is so good in the deck that just tutoring for him is really good value, and it makes Will even better!
Cardkingdom had it at $175, so I used some credit and bit the bullet haha. I think my deck is shifting towards esper over time, with Red and Green acting as supporting colors. I've made lots of changes to the mana base to support these changes:
The effect of Invoke Prejudice is awesome at basically every point in the game, so there's not to much of a rush to cast it. Between Chromatic Lantern, Mirrari's Wake, and a good mana base I think casting IP on turns 5 or 6 is definitely doable. (You run Wargate, so it's even easier!)
In terms of cuts I would definitely recommend cutting Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Dovin Baan. I recently cut them myself for being too low-impact. The ultimates don't win you the game, and the other abilities are not exactly amazing. Also, I think Will Kenrith is better than Dovin in basically every way, it's a great one-to-one replacement.
Right now I'm testing Rowan Kenrith . It's certainly not amazing, but the -2 and the -8 are alright, and Will Kenrith is so good in the deck that just tutoring for him is really good value, and it makes Will even better!
For that price seems note too bad.
And I'll take your word for dropping Elspeth and Dovin. I was leaning towards Dovin, and Elspeth I like but I'll try without her. I'm always happy to cut high CMC cards. Which is why I won't run Will for now, mainly cause he's already pretty high cost.
I think there are better options than Sphere of Safety for this deck. I think the biggest downside it has is that they will never stop a determined player from killing your planeswalkers: Even if you have 5 enchantments out, someone can still pay 5 mana and swing in with their beat stick to destroy your planeswalker that's about to ultimate. With spreading plague, they could get creative with their creature ordering to really reduce the impact. I have had both of these cards for a long time in the ever-expanding maybeboard of this deck, but I think Spreading Plague is much better for sure.
There are a bunch of enchantments like Spreading Plague, Lethal Vapors, and Tainted Aether, which all seem more or less equally viable to me. I will swap out Tainted Aether and test out Spreading Plague, maybe it will perform better than I expect!
On the other hand, for the same mana cost as Sphere you can play Mystic Barrier , that will stop at least 2/3 players from attacking you in the worst case, and basically all attacks in the best case. Because you can change the direction on each of your upkeeps, you can always choose the player that can harm you the least, which also allows you to focus your removal and maze of ith activations and the like on keeping down one player at a time.
I think there are better options than Sphere of Safety for this deck. I think the biggest downside it has is that they will never stop a determined player from killing your planeswalkers: Even if you have 5 enchantments out, someone can still pay 5 mana and swing in with their beat stick to destroy your planeswalker that's about to ultimate. With spreading plague, they could get creative with their creature ordering to really reduce the impact. I have had both of these cards for a long time in the ever-expanding maybeboard of this deck, but I think Spreading Plague is much better for sure.
There are a bunch of enchantments like Spreading Plague, Lethal Vapors, and Tainted Aether, which all seem more or less equally viable to me. I will swap out Tainted Aether and test out Spreading Plague, maybe it will perform better than I expect!
On the other hand, for the same mana cost as Sphere you can play Mystic Barrier , that will stop at least 2/3 players from attacking you in the worst case, and basically all attacks in the best case. Because you can change the direction on each of your upkeeps, you can always choose the player that can harm you the least, which also allows you to focus your removal and maze of ith activations and the like on keeping down one player at a time.
Point taken on Sphere.
As for Mystic Barrier, I think the only reason why I wouldn't play it because it would make the game incredibly boring lolyou could say the same thing about Humility et al but it's a little less direct and just doesn't jive with me. Competitively, it probably is pretty good in this deck though.
I think its definitely a fine balance with this deck between completely shutting down the game and more aggressively pushing for some sort of win condition.
I was just thinking about running Stasis with Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, which seems super powerful but also possibly too mean...
I think the most proactive version of this deck runs ~25 planeswalkers, only packs the absolute best stax effects (tabernacle, humility, moat, abyss) and then pushes for a win with Deepglow Skate, Doubling Season, or a big Primeval's Glorious Rebirth turn.
I am hoping for a boatload of new planeswalkers in War of the Spark. Hopefully at some point we get some planeswalkers with etb effects or static effects, that would be super exciting.
What's been your experience with the new Teferi so far? I think I'm going to wait for a reprint before snagging him. How often is untapping land relevant? Does the ultimate ever make a significant difference? Do you ever actually use the -3?
I think its definitely a fine balance with this deck between completely shutting down the game and more aggressively pushing for some sort of win condition.
I was just thinking about running Stasis with Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, which seems super powerful but also possibly too mean...
I think the most proactive version of this deck runs ~25 planeswalkers, only packs the absolute best stax effects (tabernacle, humility, moat, abyss) and then pushes for a win with Deepglow Skate, Doubling Season, or a big Primeval's Glorious Rebirth turn.
I am hoping for a boatload of new planeswalkers in War of the Spark. Hopefully at some point we get some planeswalkers with etb effects or static effects, that would be super exciting.
What's been your experience with the new Teferi so far? I think I'm going to wait for a reprint before snagging him. How often is untapping land relevant? Does the ultimate ever make a significant difference? Do you ever actually use the -3?
I literally just got a copy, and I'm hoping to play soon-ish, so I'll let you know.
The new Serra planeswalker seems pretty bad in this deck for the most part.
However, if you run it with Sliver Hivelord as a commander, it could be a significant and resilient speed bump to slow down opponents, giving you some time to find your enchantments. You can even have the emblem out on turn 3 with a sol ring / mana crypt start, but there really isn't much urgency for getting out a Worship emblem, haha
I think I finally have enough together to try this out. I don't have Moat/Abyss/Humility/Tabernacle or ABUR duals, and likely never will, so I'm making some substitutions in the departments of lands and prison effects (if there's room for much of the latter) and going for it. Also hoping to get away without the extra turn spells in my definitely-not-competitive playgroup, too.
I know just up the page you mentioned you don't like alternative win conditions, but I've been wanting to give Maze's End a shot.
Of the cards you mentioned, you could probably do just fine with Humility and a few ways to tutor it up. That would definitely increase the power of your deck, it's like a Torpor orb + Godhead of Awe as an enchantment for a mere 4 mana. Luckily Humility is cheaper than the rest by quite a margin, at least for now.
I think I finally have enough together to try this out. I don't have Moat/Abyss/Humility/Tabernacle or ABUR duals, and likely never will, so I'm making some substitutions in the departments of lands and prison effects (if there's room for much of the latter) and going for it. Also hoping to get away without the extra turn spells in my definitely-not-competitive playgroup, too.
I know just up the page you mentioned you don't like alternative win conditions, but I've been wanting to give Maze's End a shot.
If you do ever feel like spending some money, I would definitely suggest Humility. It's one of the best lock down effects.
16 spoilers tomorrow! Hopefully we get something good.
Edit: Overall I'm pretty dissapointed with the spoilers today. 2 of the 3 mythic planeswalkers were spoiled, and nothing seems even close to playable for this deck. Liliana could be alright in a tokens build I guess...
Trav, I totally agree with you. There are a handful of new cards that will matter, but it looks like they will be really impactful. My first impression was of all of the cards revealed before the new Jace (before the leaks).
So now, for some card evaluations:
The new Bolas is literally everything we could ask for in a Planeswalker. Dragon God? Best day ever. I think this will be an autoinclude in this deck indefinitely.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries is actually really good in my opinion. The upfront cost seems a little hefty, but if you add Tainted Pact you get a 2-card win condition where both cards are already very good in the deck. (You can go really deep with Demonic Consultation if you really want). Trav, you had mentioned before that you wanted your win conditions to be on your planeswalkers, and we got two in one day!
The only other cards that remotely interest me for now are Niv-Mizzet Reborn, Teferi, Time Raveler , and Nissa, Who Shakes the World.
Niv-Mizzet is really cool as a possible commander, but only works with 2-colored cards. My deck only has around 8 hits, and I think I would need around 15 before I would consider running this as a commander. Drawing 1.5ish cards is kind of the break-even point for me, otherwise I'd probably prefer to keep running something like Sliver Hivelord , especially because of the synergy with Primeval's Glorious Rebirth , which will be better than ever with these additions. Ideally with Niv-Mizzet, you can come up with a list where you can get enough draws on average that you can cut down on your draw spell count, and increase your ramp, to really maximize the value of him in the command zone.
Teferi seems really subtly powerful. I feel like there may be some cool plays that involve flashing in Doubling Season with the new Bolas or Jace for some cool wins. For 3 mana, this may be worth a slot, but I think it will require some testing or more thinking.
Nissa is super neat. The passive is great, and so is the ultimate, but the +1 is basically useless. So if you are running the completely optimal mana base for this deck, you may be able to get some good mileage out of the passive effect, and then ultimate to make your Tabernacle indestructible. Strangely, this seems like it will compete with Elspeth, Knight Errant or Mirrari's Wake for a slot, as I don't think it beats out Nissa, Vital Force .
P.S. I the leaked Gideon shows the full-art treatment from the Mythic Edition sets, so I am assuming that we will also have one for War of the Spark. If they include Jace and Bolas, I am buying it for sure. The new Bolas art would look absolutely amazing with the full-art treatment!
16 spoilers tomorrow! Hopefully we get something good.
Edit: Overall I'm pretty dissapointed with the spoilers today. 2 of the 3 mythic planeswalkers were spoiled, and nothing seems even close to playable for this deck. Liliana could be alright in a tokens build I guess...
Lili ultimate pretty much wins the game on the spot. It’s not like we don’t play any walkers who are only good because of doubling season
I actually misread Liliana's ultimate originally as referencing all players instead of just opponents. That's my bad. I will think about testing her, as the -4 is alright even if we don't get too much value from the other abilities.
Near-death Experience also gets bonus points for being super cool. Winning while at 1 life is always fun.
I'm really curious just because my playgroup is super stubborn and will refuse to scoop until I actually win the game, no matter how overwhelming the advantage (I would personally prefer to just shuffle up and play again!).
I do see what you're saying though, there's isn't many actual win cons in the deck, so it can be slow.
They will also scoop if i bank 2 extra turns with a walker or two on the battlefield.
Its actually kind of irrataing that they do, I have some sweet convoluted lines to end the game, but its always scoopsville when it looks like i can win.
I never really considered this card due to the art and artist, but I'm thinking I'll just use a proxy that changes the art and artist name.
https://deckstats.net/decks/58876/1214734-superfriends-9-2
The effect of Invoke Prejudice is awesome at basically every point in the game, so there's not to much of a rush to cast it. Between Chromatic Lantern, Mirrari's Wake, and a good mana base I think casting IP on turns 5 or 6 is definitely doable. (You run Wargate, so it's even easier!)
In terms of cuts I would definitely recommend cutting Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Dovin Baan. I recently cut them myself for being too low-impact. The ultimates don't win you the game, and the other abilities are not exactly amazing. Also, I think Will Kenrith is better than Dovin in basically every way, it's a great one-to-one replacement.
Right now I'm testing Rowan Kenrith . It's certainly not amazing, but the -2 and the -8 are alright, and Will Kenrith is so good in the deck that just tutoring for him is really good value, and it makes Will even better!
And I'll take your word for dropping Elspeth and Dovin. I was leaning towards Dovin, and Elspeth I like but I'll try without her. I'm always happy to cut high CMC cards. Which is why I won't run Will for now, mainly cause he's already pretty high cost.
What's your opinion of Sphere of Safety?
Another card I'm probably going to test is Spreading Plague.
There are a bunch of enchantments like Spreading Plague, Lethal Vapors, and Tainted Aether, which all seem more or less equally viable to me. I will swap out Tainted Aether and test out Spreading Plague, maybe it will perform better than I expect!
On the other hand, for the same mana cost as Sphere you can play Mystic Barrier , that will stop at least 2/3 players from attacking you in the worst case, and basically all attacks in the best case. Because you can change the direction on each of your upkeeps, you can always choose the player that can harm you the least, which also allows you to focus your removal and maze of ith activations and the like on keeping down one player at a time.
As for Mystic Barrier, I think the only reason why I wouldn't play it because it would make the game incredibly boring lolyou could say the same thing about Humility et al but it's a little less direct and just doesn't jive with me. Competitively, it probably is pretty good in this deck though.
I was just thinking about running Stasis with Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, which seems super powerful but also possibly too mean...
I think the most proactive version of this deck runs ~25 planeswalkers, only packs the absolute best stax effects (tabernacle, humility, moat, abyss) and then pushes for a win with Deepglow Skate, Doubling Season, or a big Primeval's Glorious Rebirth turn.
I am hoping for a boatload of new planeswalkers in War of the Spark. Hopefully at some point we get some planeswalkers with etb effects or static effects, that would be super exciting.
What's been your experience with the new Teferi so far? I think I'm going to wait for a reprint before snagging him. How often is untapping land relevant? Does the ultimate ever make a significant difference? Do you ever actually use the -3?
However, if you run it with Sliver Hivelord as a commander, it could be a significant and resilient speed bump to slow down opponents, giving you some time to find your enchantments. You can even have the emblem out on turn 3 with a sol ring / mana crypt start, but there really isn't much urgency for getting out a Worship emblem, haha
I know just up the page you mentioned you don't like alternative win conditions, but I've been wanting to give Maze's End a shot.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Edit: Overall I'm pretty dissapointed with the spoilers today. 2 of the 3 mythic planeswalkers were spoiled, and nothing seems even close to playable for this deck. Liliana could be alright in a tokens build I guess...
EDIT: Okay, maybe not insane. It's a lot of creature-centric stuff and overall just not that powerful. But that Bolas is still beautiful.
So now, for some card evaluations:
The new Bolas is literally everything we could ask for in a Planeswalker. Dragon God? Best day ever. I think this will be an autoinclude in this deck indefinitely.
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries is actually really good in my opinion. The upfront cost seems a little hefty, but if you add Tainted Pact you get a 2-card win condition where both cards are already very good in the deck. (You can go really deep with Demonic Consultation if you really want). Trav, you had mentioned before that you wanted your win conditions to be on your planeswalkers, and we got two in one day!
The only other cards that remotely interest me for now are Niv-Mizzet Reborn, Teferi, Time Raveler , and Nissa, Who Shakes the World.
Niv-Mizzet is really cool as a possible commander, but only works with 2-colored cards. My deck only has around 8 hits, and I think I would need around 15 before I would consider running this as a commander. Drawing 1.5ish cards is kind of the break-even point for me, otherwise I'd probably prefer to keep running something like Sliver Hivelord , especially because of the synergy with Primeval's Glorious Rebirth , which will be better than ever with these additions. Ideally with Niv-Mizzet, you can come up with a list where you can get enough draws on average that you can cut down on your draw spell count, and increase your ramp, to really maximize the value of him in the command zone.
Teferi seems really subtly powerful. I feel like there may be some cool plays that involve flashing in Doubling Season with the new Bolas or Jace for some cool wins. For 3 mana, this may be worth a slot, but I think it will require some testing or more thinking.
Nissa is super neat. The passive is great, and so is the ultimate, but the +1 is basically useless. So if you are running the completely optimal mana base for this deck, you may be able to get some good mileage out of the passive effect, and then ultimate to make your Tabernacle indestructible. Strangely, this seems like it will compete with Elspeth, Knight Errant or Mirrari's Wake for a slot, as I don't think it beats out Nissa, Vital Force .
P.S. I the leaked Gideon shows the full-art treatment from the Mythic Edition sets, so I am assuming that we will also have one for War of the Spark. If they include Jace and Bolas, I am buying it for sure. The new Bolas art would look absolutely amazing with the full-art treatment!
Lili ultimate pretty much wins the game on the spot. It’s not like we don’t play any walkers who are only good because of doubling season