Its probably a meta call. It makes all the rocks produce negative mana the turn they come out. It makes counter magic much worse and free spells like FoW/pact kind of lame. It hoses most targetted spells (removal, countermagic, tutors). It kills most combo decks. I could see it not do much in a battlecruiser meta. Mine has moved towards cEDH and its a house everytime it hits the field. My current deck has an average CMC of 1.63 just to give you an idea.
Thats insane lol. Yeah, it definitely sounds like your meta is a bit more competitive. My playgroup actively avoids infinite combos, but man your 1.63 average cmc is crazy. What kind of deck is it, and what's the win cons?
Playing in these kind of metas with that kind of deck speed is enlightening. I'll probably reuse that knowledge and revisit superfriends later on. In the meantime, I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
Playing in these kind of metas with that kind of deck speed is enlightening. I'll probably reuse that knowledge and revisit superfriends later on. In the meantime, I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
The only way for superfriends deck to be able to compete with such decks or combo decks like prossh or hermit druid or zur, is to include hate cards. Even if you add cards like stanglehold, trinisphere etc., I do not believe that superfriends can compete in such meta. This is my opinion...
I definitely agree with Johnny. I don't think this deck can or should strive to compete in CompetitiveEDH metas. I am very happy playing this deck at the "75%" level. In fact, I made my deck with the idea that I could put some of the strongest EDH-legal cards in one place, without being oppressive or combo-centric. But that's just my philosophy. Either way, if you want to be competitive in metas like the one you described, I think you'd have a better time playing Zur or Tazri.
Hey Trav_Ragnar was the creature based list ever designed? I saw the decklist for tokens but not true creatures.
I have not. Every time I seem to start putting a list together, I have a hard time justifying it. The creatures I consider valuable would be the following:
Possibly:
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Magus of the Abyss
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Academy Rector
I could definitely put something together, but I'm not sure of the cost/benefit there. I suppose adding Venser, the Sojourner to re-up enter the battlefield effects, but otherwise I'm not sure.
Let me know if you still are interested, and what you would want me to include. I can work up some rough draft.
He works awfully well with the Oaths, too. I wish I liked him a little better, because his ultimate is really good and his interaction with Oaths and being able to "reset" planeswalker royalty. Unfortunately, he's just not that good in my creatureless version.
I agree on that, but for a creature version, it could be cool. Deathtouch makes people think hard whether they want to swing the team to kill your PW. While thinking creatures, Queen Marchesa perhaps? Just brainstorming here, but she has deathtouch, provides card draw, people have to decide if the want to become the monarch or kill your PW
I agree on that, but for a creature version, it could be cool. Deathtouch makes people think hard whether they want to swing the team to kill your PW. While thinking creatures, Queen Marchesa perhaps? Just brainstorming here, but she has deathtouch, provides card draw, people have to decide if the want to become the monarch or kill your PW
Possibly, or Atraxa, or both. It just depends on how much creatures we want to run.
Yeah, there are lots of interesting creatures that work well with planeswalkers. But personally, the total lack of creatures is what pulled me to this list in the first place! I've designed quite a few EDH decks for my meta, and over the years, I've felt more and more intrigued by using powerful, symmetric effects and breaking them (or at least make them hurt me the least). And OP's creatureless list runs them all! (Well, except maybe Mindslicer...) So, creature discussions aside, if anyone has new ideas for the creatureless version, let's hear them! I'm building that one, but I'm skimping out on six of the more expensive cards for now. So I'm toying around with some replacements, right now they are: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -> Wasteland Moat -> Ensnaring Bridge Capture of Jingzhou -> Savor the Moment The Abyss -> Tainted Aether Imperial Seal -> Beseech the Queen Temporal Manipulation -> Temporal Mastery
Suggestions for better replacements? Considering trying Pendrell Mists for the Tabernacle effect, just having a hard time finding one to buy. Bridge doesn't do the trick quite as Moat, but I like it more than Dueling Grounds. Although Moat wouldn't stop the Gisela deck in my playgroup...
Going to pick up the Manipulation and the Seal when I see what's left of this months salary. Found a crappy Italian Abyss quite cheap in the country too, maybe snagging that one as well.
Trav_Ragnar, have you ever thought about Bitterblossom? To tough on the life? Always thought of that one as a classic PW defense card.
Yeah, there are lots of interesting creatures that work well with planeswalkers. But personally, the total lack of creatures is what pulled me to this list in the first place! I've designed quite a few EDH decks for my meta, and over the years, I've felt more and more intrigued by using powerful, symmetric effects and breaking them (or at least make them hurt me the least). And OP's creatureless list runs them all! (Well, except maybe Mindslicer...) So, creature discussions aside, if anyone has new ideas for the creatureless version, let's hear them! I'm building that one, but I'm skimping out on six of the more expensive cards for now. So I'm toying around with some replacements, right now they are: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -> Wasteland Moat -> Ensnaring Bridge Capture of Jingzhou -> Savor the Moment The Abyss -> Tainted Aether Imperial Seal -> Beseech the Queen Temporal Manipulation -> Temporal Mastery
Suggestions for better replacements? Considering trying Pendrell Mists for the Tabernacle effect, just having a hard time finding one to buy. Bridge doesn't do the trick quite as Moat, but I like it more than Dueling Grounds. Although Moat wouldn't stop the Gisela deck in my playgroup...
Going to pick up the Manipulation and the Seal when I see what's left of this months salary. Found a crappy Italian Abyss quite cheap in the country too, maybe snagging that one as well.
Trav_Ragnar, have you ever thought about Bitterblossom? To tough on the life? Always thought of that one as a classic PW defense card.
Savor the moment is a good sub for capture. It has done some work and at worst it's a 3 mana explore which is fine.
I actually think dueling grounds is superior to moat. Some of your walkers make chump blockers and maze or kor haven is better against a guy then all the fliers.
Pendrel mist seems like a fine card and if it were foil I'd probably run it.
Beseech the queen seems like garbage praetors grasp while being semi random lets you search any players deck since you are 5c. Tainted aether seems better then the abyss. I know. Crazy.
Yeah, there are lots of interesting creatures that work well with planeswalkers. But personally, the total lack of creatures is what pulled me to this list in the first place! I've designed quite a few EDH decks for my meta, and over the years, I've felt more and more intrigued by using powerful, symmetric effects and breaking them (or at least make them hurt me the least). And OP's creatureless list runs them all! (Well, except maybe Mindslicer...) So, creature discussions aside, if anyone has new ideas for the creatureless version, let's hear them! I'm building that one, but I'm skimping out on six of the more expensive cards for now. So I'm toying around with some replacements, right now they are: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -> Wasteland Moat -> Ensnaring Bridge Capture of Jingzhou -> Savor the Moment The Abyss -> Tainted Aether Imperial Seal -> Beseech the Queen Temporal Manipulation -> Temporal Mastery
Suggestions for better replacements? Considering trying Pendrell Mists for the Tabernacle effect, just having a hard time finding one to buy. Bridge doesn't do the trick quite as Moat, but I like it more than Dueling Grounds. Although Moat wouldn't stop the Gisela deck in my playgroup...
Going to pick up the Manipulation and the Seal when I see what's left of this months salary. Found a crappy Italian Abyss quite cheap in the country too, maybe snagging that one as well.
Trav_Ragnar, have you ever thought about Bitterblossom? To tough on the life? Always thought of that one as a classic PW defense card.
Hey welcome! Yeah I do really like how the deck plays right now, works very well in protecting planeswalkers and lets them do their thing.
As for your replacements:
1. Seems fine. Not necessarily an appropriate trade in some sense, and actually Tabernacle fills a nonland card spot in my deck, but Wasteland is good.
2. I like this,but I like Dueling Grounds too. I would possibly consider both.
3. Again seems fine, but something like Walk the Aeonsmight be better.
4. I haven't played it, and think when it comes down to it, people will just sacrifice a land so they can land their Kozilek or whatever. You have to consider that a lot of creatures in this format don't care too much about living, so they can sacrifice it until it comes down to it. Like I said, haven't played it. Could be good though!
5. Ehhh not too sure about this one to be honest. Something like Mystical Tutor might be better especially if you run Temproal Mastery and include something like Terminus.
6. Yes, but then again, I like using my Regrowth effects to snag a Time Warp effect, so again I'm not too sure.
Overall I would say these all seem appropriate, and you could at least go about testing and see what works and what doesn't. I'll try to sit down and really consider some better budget options for everything sometime this week. There seems to be a decent amount of players coming in to thread lately, and most don't want to pay $6000 for a deck, understandably
Love seeing new faces though! Let me know if you think of something I don't have in the list you think might belong.
Oh wait, duh, you mentioned Bitterblossom lol. Well, I played it early on and it was alright, and now that I think about it, works well with Moat. But life is becoming increasingly relevant in this deck. Also one thing is, this deck is seriously getting tight and I don't know where to place it. I think Dueling Grounds or Ensnaring Bridge seem like higher priorities at the moment.
I think that Samuts combo with doubling season makes her too good not to try. She just wins the game by getting Ugin and whatever other value guy you want. Like liliana.
Bolas is certainly interesting. He is cheaper and his ultimate effects every opponent instead of just killing 1 person. The hand disruption is kinda meh. The free cascade is swingy. But with looping chain veil activations it is a legitimate win condition.
Also being able to just bug anything for 7 is not terrible.
I think og Bolas might be better in a vacume while god pharaoh might have more synergy with a super friends build.
Bontus last reckoning is an interesting wrath. Being 3 mana makes it more likely that you can cast a walker and the reckoning in the same turn. I think I will test it over supreme verdict.
I think that Samuts combo with doubling season makes her too good not to try. She just wins the game by getting Ugin and whatever other value guy you want. Like liliana.
Bolas is certainly interesting. He is cheaper and his ultimate effects every opponent instead of just killing 1 person. The hand disruption is kinda meh. The free cascade is swingy. But with looping chain veil activations it is a legitimate win condition.
Also being able to just bug anything for 7 is not terrible.
I think og Bolas might be better in a vacume while god pharaoh might have more synergy with a super friends build.
Bontus last reckoning is an interesting wrath. Being 3 mana makes it more likely that you can cast a walker and the reckoning in the same turn. I think I will test it over supreme verdict.
I actually really, really like Bolas. Both of his pluses are very good. Targeting a Kaalia player and getting an Avacyn or a mono blue player and getting Omniscience seems pretty awesome. His other plus is nice because it's each opponent, and it's two cards. You can quickly put your opponents into top deck mode, which would be crazy. 7-mana isn't too bad, either. Pseudo-removal isn't a bad minus, while also being able to just go for the win off of burn. His ultimate is decent, honestly not too crazy in my opinion, but decent. Another four ability walker added!
Samut is sad. I hate how many GR walkers there are and none of them are good for this deck. Like yeah, I get it, GR is aggressive-creature oriented, but come on. That being said, her ultimate would be awesome with a Doubling Season, which just makes this worse. Her first two abilities are so useless, and especially her minus. Seriously, 2 damage?
As much as I want to run her, I'm not. Having her and doubling season is unlikely enough that I don't think she warrants a spot. Your better off running Jace, Architect of Thought, who at least does something other than his ultimate.
Bonut's Reckoning seems okay, but I don't know if it's really worth it. I would rather pay the extra mana and untap my lands next turn.
I am stoked for Nicol Bolas. Well worth the wait! Something I haven't seen anyone mention of that he can come down and immediately clear the board if you have doubling season out. That's pretty sweet.
I really don't like the new wrath. I would rather play Crux of Fate and Extinguish All Hope before I played this card, and those are pretty terrible. This card says "skip your next turn" 80% of the time, which is definitely not something we want to be doing. We don't have enough mana rocks or untap effects to make it worthwhile.
I am stoked for Nicol Bolas. Well worth the wait! Something I haven't seen anyone mention of that he can come down and immediately clear the board if you have doubling season out. That's pretty sweet.
I really don't like the new wrath. I would rather play Crux of Fate and Extinguish All Hope before I played this card, and those are pretty terrible. This card says "skip your next turn" 80% of the time, which is definitely not something we want to be doing. We don't have enough mana rocks or untap effects to make it worthwhile.
Yeah, I agree. I think he's honestly better than the first version. It would be nice to ult him off of Doubling Season, but I'm not too sure how nice. I feel like he could have wrecked their hands too? I just feel like a one sided board wipe isn't too crazy. Maybe I'm wrong.
Also, yeah it's not that great. It may be decent in that Winter Orb/Static Orb based deck.
What do you guys think about Call the Gatewatch? It's can be almost as strong as Wargate in this deck.
It's also more flexible than Wargate if you are grabbing a planeswalker, as you can split up the cost between turns, and it's less colour intensive.
It's obviously worse than wargate if you need to grab an enchantment, but I think it is worth testing. The real question would be what to cut for it.
I think that call the gate watch is a little to narrow. Granted it's a great top deck late game but wargate can help you develop your mana early and is also a great late game to top deck as well. Not to mention being able to get any kind of permanent.
It may be better then enlightened tutor if your running it.
What do you guys think about Call the Gatewatch? It's can be almost as strong as Wargate in this deck.
It's also more flexible than Wargate if you are grabbing a planeswalker, as you can split up the cost between turns, and it's less colour intensive.
It's obviously worse than wargate if you need to grab an enchantment, but I think it is worth testing. The real question would be what to cut for it.
I feel like with how much it costs, and how narrow it is, I think I would just rather run something else like: Cruel Tutor, Dark Petition, Beseech the Queen, and especially if you can afford it, Grim Tutor.
Overall what I'm saying is that I'm fairly satisfied with my tutors, and I think Wargate edges it out for multiple reasons. You can cast it when your opponents are tapped out and get the planeswalker immediately, versus Call the Gatewatch. It's a 3-mana, tutor any land, which is decent for just ramping or grabbing something like Maze of Ith. And then artifacts and enchantments.
That's a pretty reasonable assessment. I think I'll stick with Wargate for now.
There's two more cards I've been looking at recently:
Manifold insights: Seems pretty damn good to me. 3 non-land cards for 3 mana seems like a great deal. Another similar card is Painful Truths, but I think I'd prefer having the worst 3 non-lands as opposed to 3 random cards off the top.
Fumigate: I feel like I would play a 5-mana wrath that said "gain 7 life", and this card has the potential to be better than that. A lot of the time I am wishing some of my cards had some incidental lifegain to help stay in the game until you stabilise and start pulling ahead.
Thoughts?
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Playing in these kind of metas with that kind of deck speed is enlightening. I'll probably reuse that knowledge and revisit superfriends later on. In the meantime, I'm keeping an eye on this thread.
The only way for superfriends deck to be able to compete with such decks or combo decks like prossh or hermit druid or zur, is to include hate cards. Even if you add cards like stanglehold, trinisphere etc., I do not believe that superfriends can compete in such meta. This is my opinion...
1 Peacekeeper
1 Sun Titan
1 Deepglow Skate
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Necrotic Sliver
Possibly:
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Magus of the Abyss
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Academy Rector
I could definitely put something together, but I'm not sure of the cost/benefit there. I suppose adding Venser, the Sojourner to re-up enter the battlefield effects, but otherwise I'm not sure.
Let me know if you still are interested, and what you would want me to include. I can work up some rough draft.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale -> Wasteland
Moat -> Ensnaring Bridge
Capture of Jingzhou -> Savor the Moment
The Abyss -> Tainted Aether
Imperial Seal -> Beseech the Queen
Temporal Manipulation -> Temporal Mastery
Suggestions for better replacements? Considering trying Pendrell Mists for the Tabernacle effect, just having a hard time finding one to buy. Bridge doesn't do the trick quite as Moat, but I like it more than Dueling Grounds. Although Moat wouldn't stop the Gisela deck in my playgroup...
Going to pick up the Manipulation and the Seal when I see what's left of this months salary. Found a crappy Italian Abyss quite cheap in the country too, maybe snagging that one as well.
Trav_Ragnar, have you ever thought about Bitterblossom? To tough on the life? Always thought of that one as a classic PW defense card.
Savor the moment is a good sub for capture. It has done some work and at worst it's a 3 mana explore which is fine.
I actually think dueling grounds is superior to moat. Some of your walkers make chump blockers and maze or kor haven is better against a guy then all the fliers.
Pendrel mist seems like a fine card and if it were foil I'd probably run it.
Beseech the queen seems like garbage praetors grasp while being semi random lets you search any players deck since you are 5c. Tainted aether seems better then the abyss. I know. Crazy.
As for your replacements:
1. Seems fine. Not necessarily an appropriate trade in some sense, and actually Tabernacle fills a nonland card spot in my deck, but Wasteland is good.
2. I like this,but I like Dueling Grounds too. I would possibly consider both.
3. Again seems fine, but something like Walk the Aeons might be better.
4. I haven't played it, and think when it comes down to it, people will just sacrifice a land so they can land their Kozilek or whatever. You have to consider that a lot of creatures in this format don't care too much about living, so they can sacrifice it until it comes down to it. Like I said, haven't played it. Could be good though!
5. Ehhh not too sure about this one to be honest. Something like Mystical Tutor might be better especially if you run Temproal Mastery and include something like Terminus.
6. Yes, but then again, I like using my Regrowth effects to snag a Time Warp effect, so again I'm not too sure.
Overall I would say these all seem appropriate, and you could at least go about testing and see what works and what doesn't. I'll try to sit down and really consider some better budget options for everything sometime this week. There seems to be a decent amount of players coming in to thread lately, and most don't want to pay $6000 for a deck, understandably
Love seeing new faces though! Let me know if you think of something I don't have in the list you think might belong.
Oh wait, duh, you mentioned Bitterblossom lol. Well, I played it early on and it was alright, and now that I think about it, works well with Moat. But life is becoming increasingly relevant in this deck. Also one thing is, this deck is seriously getting tight and I don't know where to place it. I think Dueling Grounds or Ensnaring Bridge seem like higher priorities at the moment.
New Nicol Bolas is insane as expected.
Samut is pretty bad for this deck as two thirds of her abilities are next to useless for most Superfriends decks.
Bolas is certainly interesting. He is cheaper and his ultimate effects every opponent instead of just killing 1 person. The hand disruption is kinda meh. The free cascade is swingy. But with looping chain veil activations it is a legitimate win condition.
Also being able to just bug anything for 7 is not terrible.
I think og Bolas might be better in a vacume while god pharaoh might have more synergy with a super friends build.
Bontus last reckoning is an interesting wrath. Being 3 mana makes it more likely that you can cast a walker and the reckoning in the same turn. I think I will test it over supreme verdict.
Samut is sad. I hate how many GR walkers there are and none of them are good for this deck. Like yeah, I get it, GR is aggressive-creature oriented, but come on. That being said, her ultimate would be awesome with a Doubling Season, which just makes this worse. Her first two abilities are so useless, and especially her minus. Seriously, 2 damage?
As much as I want to run her, I'm not. Having her and doubling season is unlikely enough that I don't think she warrants a spot. Your better off running Jace, Architect of Thought, who at least does something other than his ultimate.
Bonut's Reckoning seems okay, but I don't know if it's really worth it. I would rather pay the extra mana and untap my lands next turn.
I really don't like the new wrath. I would rather play Crux of Fate and Extinguish All Hope before I played this card, and those are pretty terrible. This card says "skip your next turn" 80% of the time, which is definitely not something we want to be doing. We don't have enough mana rocks or untap effects to make it worthwhile.
Also, yeah it's not that great. It may be decent in that Winter Orb/Static Orb based deck.
It's also more flexible than Wargate if you are grabbing a planeswalker, as you can split up the cost between turns, and it's less colour intensive.
It's obviously worse than wargate if you need to grab an enchantment, but I think it is worth testing. The real question would be what to cut for it.
I think that call the gate watch is a little to narrow. Granted it's a great top deck late game but wargate can help you develop your mana early and is also a great late game to top deck as well. Not to mention being able to get any kind of permanent.
It may be better then enlightened tutor if your running it.
Overall what I'm saying is that I'm fairly satisfied with my tutors, and I think Wargate edges it out for multiple reasons. You can cast it when your opponents are tapped out and get the planeswalker immediately, versus Call the Gatewatch. It's a 3-mana, tutor any land, which is decent for just ramping or grabbing something like Maze of Ith. And then artifacts and enchantments.
There's two more cards I've been looking at recently:
Manifold insights: Seems pretty damn good to me. 3 non-land cards for 3 mana seems like a great deal. Another similar card is Painful Truths, but I think I'd prefer having the worst 3 non-lands as opposed to 3 random cards off the top.
Fumigate: I feel like I would play a 5-mana wrath that said "gain 7 life", and this card has the potential to be better than that. A lot of the time I am wishing some of my cards had some incidental lifegain to help stay in the game until you stabilise and start pulling ahead.
Thoughts?