I'm toying around with an Atraxa deck without the board wipes, instead relying on Peacekeeper, Dueling Ground, etc type effects along with death touchers. Without the creature hate, I can run a lot of mana dorks for acceleration. Getting it down to 100 cards has been rough though.
This is where I like Ajani Steadfast. Once you ult him, board state pretty much doesn't matter especially if you happen to have Contagion Engine out, or him.
If you play Atraxa, you really won't want to cast board whipes to protect your planeswalkers. I feel like she cuts a lot of lines of play while she's on the field. Why run her over a 5 colour commander? What's the point other than the novelty?
I agree with basically all of those points. It is more for novelty (my superfriends is online so I don't have to pull apart a deck). Sliver Queen is still, well, the queen. But tinkering with deck designs is super fun
The best reason is probably budget. I too believe that the 5 color commanders are better even though they are not purely mechanical fits (proliferate).
If you play Atraxa, you really won't want to cast board whipes to protect your planeswalkers. I feel like she cuts a lot of lines of play while she's on the field. Why run her over a 5 colour commander? What's the point other than the novelty?
Sliver queen gives you a 3 turn clock and a constant source of chump blockers.
Atraxa gives you some extra loyalty counters here and there, and is a solid blocker.
But if you're not running Deepglow Skate which sometimes straight up wins the game, why bother with Atraxa at all?
I think there is a decent argument to be made for Atraxa, but it could depend on your meta. For one, you're cutting red, which increases your fixing by a decent amount. The fact that you can get an additional counter every turn for your walkers is not to be underestimated. Running more cheaper planeswalker can help set you up into ultimating them early. For example, going from Nissa, Voice of Zendikar to Atraxa, Praetors' Voice will have you ultimating her fairly quickly. I think she definitely sets up a little different of a play style, but something I think that can be done well if desired. I think it opens up for counterspells, too. So instead of dealing with things via wraths, you'd be dealing with things via removal and counters.
I agree with basically all of those points. It is more for novelty (my superfriends is online so I don't have to pull apart a deck). Sliver Queen is still, well, the queen. But tinkering with deck designs is super fun
The best reason is probably budget. I too believe that the 5 color commanders are better even though they are not purely mechanical fits (proliferate).
Budget would help. It cuts down 4 of the duals, which is a pretty big deal. Plus fixing.
I started recording a replay of a test game but MTGO sometimes corrupts the replays (shows cards that weren't even played in your hand, etc).
But I started with a god hand (4 lands, Moat, Vampiric Tutor, Timetwister). Tutored for mana crypt, ended up dumping my hand, timetwister, dropped Liliana Vess some lands and Dueling Ground. Proceeded to drop Doubling Season and and Jace Architect same turn, grabbing ugin and opponent's Sorin Grim Nemesis. Dropped stasis. The game went on but it was super over. Ended up getting a Chain Veil/Teferi combo to loop +1 of sorin markov
Fiddler, would you recommend Stasis in 5-colour superfriends? I feel like if you steal two turns from a table everyone will focus you. I guess it would be really strong with two walkers in play? Always loved the art either way.
Stasis will definitely turn heads. It has its place in certain decks I think, either to slow down the fast combo deck for a turn or two, when you can break parity (ala Teferi untap), or when you already have a punishing board state to get you further ahead. I dropped it post doubling season and Ugin ult. I had it for a few turns and it let me ult Ugin again (with rings of brighthearth this time).
I've been toying around with the idea of making multiple different lists, while maintaining the main list, so that people with different situations (meta, budget, etc.) can use the different lists for inspiration.
I think a heavy control one using Stasis and other similar cards would be a good idea. I would likely more and cheaper planeswalkers.
Anyone else want to see lists like these, if so, what? Budget, 4-color, 3-color, token theme, etc.?
New Ajani spoiled, I think this is a solid planeswalker, +2 is great card advantage which is going to draw you on average probably 2 cards a turn and even if you hit lands, without this card you would be drawing those lands on your next draws so it really is a win-win type of ability so to speak, -2 is Swords to Plowshares so a decent option to have, -9 is a bonkers effect for this deck, especially the tokens version. I think this card is very playable, maybe even just for the +2...
New Ajani spoiled, I think this is a solid planeswalker, +2 is great card advantage which is going to draw you on average probably 2 cards a turn and even if you hit lands, without this card you would be drawing those lands on your next draws so it really is a win-win type of ability so to speak, -2 is Swords to Plowshares so a decent option to have, -9 is a bonkers effect for this deck, especially the tokens version. I think this card is very playable, maybe even just for the +2...
New Ajani specifies nonland permanent.
The most analogous card in terms of function is Ob Nixilis Reignited. If you like Ob Nixilis, then this new Ajani is going to be just as a good fit.
New Ajani spoiled, I think this is a solid planeswalker, +2 is great card advantage which is going to draw you on average probably 2 cards a turn and even if you hit lands, without this card you would be drawing those lands on your next draws so it really is a win-win type of ability so to speak, -2 is Swords to Plowshares so a decent option to have, -9 is a bonkers effect for this deck, especially the tokens version. I think this card is very playable, maybe even just for the +2...
Just gonna put this here for anyone who wants the visual:
Anyway, I think I agree with everything you're saying. Although I'm sitting a bit on the fence because I'd be worried about him not hitting the draws enough. I guess it just requires some testing. Overall I think he seems pretty interesting, and he'll likely fit in the deck.
I think we need to compare it to other options at 6CMC.
Pros:
- Deck filtering / card draw
- Control with relevant clause (exile)
- Ultimate is probably not game winning in a lot of scenarios but still strong
- High loyalty if you +2 after dropping him
Cons:
- Does not ult off of Doubling Season
- Higher mana cost than most (Nixilis is 5CMC) but is arguably easier to cast than Ob
- Zero combo potential / no synergies
Agreed, Ajani looks interesting. Not sure what to cut if I made a spot. I still haven't got Kaya in there to test. Now we just need the Tezzeret reveal, because I'm guessing we are getting one!
Agreed, Ajani looks interesting. Not sure what to cut if I made a spot. I still haven't got Kaya in there to test. Now we just need the Tezzeret reveal, because I'm guessing we are getting one!
annndd he's pretty much unplayable in this deck lol
What do you guys think?
EDIT: This is the planeswalker deck version. So it's way weaker than the actual version. I didn't realize that at first. Hopefully the actual version is less artifact centric.
I think we need to compare it to other options at 6CMC.
Pros:
- Deck filtering / card draw
- Control with relevant clause (exile)
- Ultimate is probably not game winning in a lot of scenarios but still strong
- High loyalty if you +2 after dropping him
Cons:
- Does not ult off of Doubling Season
- Higher mana cost than most (Nixilis is 5CMC) but is arguably easier to cast than Ob
- Zero combo potential / no synergies
I have to admit, he offers great versatility for all those options but he is highly costed enough to put me on the fence.
I'll agree he is a little expensive for me, and his ult requires set up to actually mean something.
Although I think comparing him to one off card draw or removal isn't quite fair, because planeswalkers generate value over time. If you were to plus him and hit 3 nonland permanents, he's already better than a 6 mana Sphinx's Rev.
I think Ob is a perfect comparison, and makes me rethink the card in that way. If anything I could see him replacing Ob.
Eh... I wouldn't go that far without testing. Ajani can whiff quite easily since he skips lands on the plus and costs 6 instead of 5 to cast. Also, I'm all about redundancy in abilities. Since both of their pluses are similar and good, I'd rather use both to either swamp when together or work as backup for each other. That said, if Ajani proves leagues better than Ob, I'd be willing to cut him.
Tezzeret has always been a rough fit for Superfriends because he leans heavy on artifacts. This one is actually the most flexible to date (although the Seeker really only ever needed two to get going). The fact that this Tezz digs until an artifact shows up means that we're not bending deck construction to the point of building around him to work. We have a modest suite of artifacts we want.
So that makes the plus worthwhile. Sol Ring, Sensei's Divining Top, Mana Crypt (for the rich), Rings of Brighthearth, Contagion Engine, The Chain Veil, and anything else we tech we can all dig out while growing a planeswalker. Tezz is in the latest tradition of the Planeswalker plus being a gain in card advantage wrapped around their character's flavor.
The -3 is almost useless. I could see it being useful in KO'ing an opponent that's teetering on 1-3 life, although at that point Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Venser, the Sojourner, Ral Zarek, or even Sliver Queen with adequate Sliver/other tokens should be able to do the job as well.
The ultimate... people like Insurrection. An ability that picks up artifacts instead of haste and is a permanent steal is not something to scoff. It also happens immediately off Doubling Season. Now, it's a terrible idea to confirm or dismiss a planeswalker solely on its ultimate.
UGx Superfriends or Atraxa superfriends should already be testing this. We should give also this Tezz its due diligence because there's potential because the artifact theme is not as strict as the other Tezzerets.
Eh... I wouldn't go that far without testing. Ajani can whiff quite easily since he skips lands on the plus and costs 6 instead of 5 to cast. Also, I'm all about redundancy in abilities. Since both of their pluses are similar and good, I'd rather use both to either swamp when together or work as backup for each other. That said, if Ajani proves leagues better than Ob, I'd be willing to cut him.
Yeah I think you have a point here. Draw and removal are bread and butter, so I don't necessarily see myself dropping Ob for Ajani. Although, I'm unsure who I'm going to drop to be honest. I may look into going back up to 25 planeswalkers, but that'll definitely require some thought and consideration.
Tezzeret has always been a rough fit for Superfriends because he leans heavy on artifacts. This one is actually the most flexible to date (although the Seeker really only ever needed two to get going). The fact that this Tezz digs until an artifact shows up means that we're not bending deck construction to the point of building around him to work. We have a modest suite of artifacts we want.
So that makes the plus worthwhile. Sol Ring, Sensei's Divining Top, Mana Crypt (for the rich), Rings of Brighthearth, Contagion Engine, The Chain Veil, and anything else we tech we can all dig out while growing a planeswalker. Tezz is in the latest tradition of the Planeswalker plus being a gain in card advantage wrapped around their character's flavor.
The -3 is almost useless. I could see it being useful in KO'ing an opponent that's teetering on 1-3 life, although at that point Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Venser, the Sojourner, Ral Zarek, or even Sliver Queen with adequate Sliver/other tokens should be able to do the job as well.
The ultimate... people like Insurrection. An ability that picks up artifacts instead of haste and is a permanent steal is not something to scoff. It also happens immediately off Doubling Season. Now, it's a terrible idea to confirm or dismiss a planeswalker solely on its ultimate.
UGx Superfriends or Atraxa superfriends should already be testing this. We should give also this Tezz its due diligence because there's potential because the artifact theme is not as strict as the other Tezzerets.
I can see that because of the art style, but even if that's the case, this Tezzeret is one of the better start Planeswalkers. I really wish it cost five to cast is my biggest beef, which is also why I eventually decided to not try the starter Nissa, which I do think is a bit underrated. Cost is the number one prohibitor for a card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Well, this card is pretty cool, 4mana and it can generate up to 4 cards of card advantage for you. Also has a nice combo with Nicol Bolas, and it tells us that we are going to get a new Bolas soon, which is quite exciting.
Edit: I also realized that so far, 3 cards with the word planeswalker have been spoiled in this set...
Thoughts on Oath of Ajani? The Counter boost probably is irrelevant in this build (better in Atraxa), does the cost reduction sound good to anyone? I would have a hard time finding a slot, probably passing though I'll purchase if cheap.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
Sliver Hivelord allows you to run indestructible blockers that ramp you in the form of Gemhide Sliver and Manaweft Sliver
Sliver queen gives you a 3 turn clock and a constant source of chump blockers.
Atraxa gives you some extra loyalty counters here and there, and is a solid blocker.
But if you're not running Deepglow Skate which sometimes straight up wins the game, why bother with Atraxa at all?
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
If you get a list together, please share!
Budget would help. It cuts down 4 of the duals, which is a pretty big deal. Plus fixing.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/atraxa-super-stax/
I started recording a replay of a test game but MTGO sometimes corrupts the replays (shows cards that weren't even played in your hand, etc).
But I started with a god hand (4 lands, Moat, Vampiric Tutor, Timetwister). Tutored for mana crypt, ended up dumping my hand, timetwister, dropped Liliana Vess some lands and Dueling Ground. Proceeded to drop Doubling Season and and Jace Architect same turn, grabbing ugin and opponent's Sorin Grim Nemesis. Dropped stasis. The game went on but it was super over. Ended up getting a Chain Veil/Teferi combo to loop +1 of sorin markov
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
I think a heavy control one using Stasis and other similar cards would be a good idea. I would likely more and cheaper planeswalkers.
Anyone else want to see lists like these, if so, what? Budget, 4-color, 3-color, token theme, etc.?
Maybe you can put creatures in the budget deck? Because then you're definitely not running The Abyss and the like.
New Ajani spoiled, I think this is a solid planeswalker, +2 is great card advantage which is going to draw you on average probably 2 cards a turn and even if you hit lands, without this card you would be drawing those lands on your next draws so it really is a win-win type of ability so to speak, -2 is Swords to Plowshares so a decent option to have, -9 is a bonkers effect for this deck, especially the tokens version. I think this card is very playable, maybe even just for the +2...
New Ajani specifies nonland permanent.
The most analogous card in terms of function is Ob Nixilis Reignited. If you like Ob Nixilis, then this new Ajani is going to be just as a good fit.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Anyway, I think I agree with everything you're saying. Although I'm sitting a bit on the fence because I'd be worried about him not hitting the draws enough. I guess it just requires some testing. Overall I think he seems pretty interesting, and he'll likely fit in the deck.
I think Ob is a perfect comparison, and makes me rethink the card in that way. If anything I could see him replacing Ob.
Pros:
- Deck filtering / card draw
- Control with relevant clause (exile)
- Ultimate is probably not game winning in a lot of scenarios but still strong
- High loyalty if you +2 after dropping him
Cons:
- Does not ult off of Doubling Season
- Higher mana cost than most (Nixilis is 5CMC) but is arguably easier to cast than Ob
- Zero combo potential / no synergies
If I break him down by function:
Card draw
- At 6CMC I'm mainly looking at Sphinx's Revelation and Recurring Insight which are both better options
Control
- At 6CMC Merciless Evition or even Final Judgement would do a better job (assuming hitting your own stuff doesn't matter)
Wincon
- Compared to Elspeth's Sun's Champion or Teferi, Temporal Archmage the ult is rather weak due to requiring a lot of conditions to work
I have to admit, he offers great versatility for all those options but he is highly costed enough to put me on the fence.
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
What do you guys think?
EDIT: This is the planeswalker deck version. So it's way weaker than the actual version. I didn't realize that at first. Hopefully the actual version is less artifact centric.
Although I think comparing him to one off card draw or removal isn't quite fair, because planeswalkers generate value over time. If you were to plus him and hit 3 nonland permanents, he's already better than a 6 mana Sphinx's Rev.
Eh... I wouldn't go that far without testing. Ajani can whiff quite easily since he skips lands on the plus and costs 6 instead of 5 to cast. Also, I'm all about redundancy in abilities. Since both of their pluses are similar and good, I'd rather use both to either swamp when together or work as backup for each other. That said, if Ajani proves leagues better than Ob, I'd be willing to cut him.
Tezzeret has always been a rough fit for Superfriends because he leans heavy on artifacts. This one is actually the most flexible to date (although the Seeker really only ever needed two to get going). The fact that this Tezz digs until an artifact shows up means that we're not bending deck construction to the point of building around him to work. We have a modest suite of artifacts we want.
So that makes the plus worthwhile. Sol Ring, Sensei's Divining Top, Mana Crypt (for the rich), Rings of Brighthearth, Contagion Engine, The Chain Veil, and anything else we tech we can all dig out while growing a planeswalker. Tezz is in the latest tradition of the Planeswalker plus being a gain in card advantage wrapped around their character's flavor.
The -3 is almost useless. I could see it being useful in KO'ing an opponent that's teetering on 1-3 life, although at that point Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Venser, the Sojourner, Ral Zarek, or even Sliver Queen with adequate Sliver/other tokens should be able to do the job as well.
The ultimate... people like Insurrection. An ability that picks up artifacts instead of haste and is a permanent steal is not something to scoff. It also happens immediately off Doubling Season. Now, it's a terrible idea to confirm or dismiss a planeswalker solely on its ultimate.
UGx Superfriends or Atraxa superfriends should already be testing this. We should give also this Tezz its due diligence because there's potential because the artifact theme is not as strict as the other Tezzerets.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I ended up realizing that this Tezz isn't the "official" Tezz, but the one from the planeswalker deck (ala Chandra, Pyrogenius, Nissa, Nature's Artisan, and the new Ajani, Valiant Protector) which are designed to be "bad".
I can see that because of the art style, but even if that's the case, this Tezzeret is one of the better start Planeswalkers. I really wish it cost five to cast is my biggest beef, which is also why I eventually decided to not try the starter Nissa, which I do think is a bit underrated. Cost is the number one prohibitor for a card.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Well, this card is pretty cool, 4mana and it can generate up to 4 cards of card advantage for you. Also has a nice combo with Nicol Bolas, and it tells us that we are going to get a new Bolas soon, which is quite exciting.
Edit: I also realized that so far, 3 cards with the word planeswalker have been spoiled in this set...
G Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy