I think I definitely want to find a spot for The Abyss. I most likely will be cutting Garruk, Apex Predator for it, unless someone else makes another suggestions. I just find Garruk to be too expensive (in mana), and realistically not that powerful. It probably won't be a for a little while, though, because The Abyss is so dang expensive. Most likely after Christmas. Anyway who has been playing with The Abyss, can you give me some feedback on it?
I played The Abyss two or three times since I bought it and so far it has been alright. It really depends on your meta. If you play against token decks then its a dead card most of the time. It shines against voltron until they get hexproof/shroud. It is blank against Sharuum.
As for what I would cut for it, I think I'd cut Garruk, Primal Hunter before Garruk, Apex Predator as often times GPH does absolutely nothing on a clean board state OR I cannot cast him at all due to GGG.
I think I definitely want to find a spot for The Abyss. I most likely will be cutting Garruk, Apex Predator for it, unless someone else makes another suggestions. I just find Garruk to be too expensive (in mana), and realistically not that powerful. It probably won't be a for a little while, though, because The Abyss is so dang expensive. Most likely after Christmas. Anyway who has been playing with The Abyss, can you give me some feedback on it?
I play The Abyss in my deck. I think it's alright like Yalpe said. Here are some thoughts:
UPSIDE
- It's fairly cheap to cast. Meaning in a five- color deck you only need one colored mana symbol to get it out, which is helpful. The CMC of 4 isn't bad either. In addition it kills early- to midgame creatures/commanders such as Oracle of Mul-Daya, Omnath, Locus of Mana and Consecrated Sphinx to name a few.
- It's removal that sticks around. It saves you from using some of your other removal spells. Dropping it on my turn after the opponets have cast some creatures and watching them get killed off on their following turns. Since we run a token sub-theme it doesn't hurt us as much and thrumps mass removal if the opponets doesn't have an army of course.
- Card advantage. One of your cards stays on board and removes multiple cards.
DOWNSIDE
- Doesn't kill artifact creatures, indestructible creatures or shrouded creatures. Although this is a downside, it is also well to note that it has not been relevant that many times.
- Easily and often removed. It goes away pretty quick, but that also means it annoys the opponents enough to destroy it. At the same time I don't feel like I get hate because of it.
To sum it up I don't know if it's a card you absolutely need. But everytime it's in my hand I want to cast it. And like I said it's disrupting enough for the opponents to remove it. I run it and will continue to do so.
I had been kicking around the idea of building super friends for a while. When I saw the new Teferi I decided it was time. I play with 3 different playgroups consistently and a couple more infrequently and so far I dislike it. More than that my friends dislike it more than my Kaervek the Merciless deck which does a much better job as a control deck but is frequently cruel.
In the majority of my play groups extra turns are considered bad play since we like to have full 4 or 5 man games (sometimes as high as 7 or 8) and making a round longer than necessary paints a target on your forehead quickly. That said I don't find I need the extra turns if I play the game well for this style of deck (fly under the radar as long as possible until the ramp and concealing my threats can put me far enough ahead).
The only way I regularly win is to make the game unbearable for my opponents and usually not much fun for myself either. Or I just cast the Queen early and swing away but at that point why am I playing super friends and not slivers? The game when I dropped Humility on turn 3 and Night of Souls' Betrayal the turn after followed by 8 rounds of goldfishing on my opponents' parts for removal and my slowly ticking up the couple planeswalkers (Wildspeaker and Tamyio) I had fielded was agonizing. Then game ended when I dropped Sterling Grove on turn 13 and everyone just scooped.
The deck also just doesn't win quickly. EDH decks are usually robust enough that using one planeswalker's ultimate just isn't game breaking even the more powerful ones like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Of the 19 planeswalkers my deck fields only Karn Liberated and Jace, the Mind Sculptor cause end game and sometimes not even then. Meanwhile it's pretty obvious to the rest of the table what the deck is trying to do. The deck itself hampers political play.
I think the Achilles' Heel is that the deck just doesn't hit hard enough fast enough. Good aggro decks outspeed it and good control decks are just better at control. With multiple planeswalkers out I often feel my turn just consists of a checklist of abilities rather than playing according to what's actually happening. The deck also doesn't benefit from card production the way other decks can, usually because most of the stuff we cast is either too expensive for multiple plays or extraneous. Also when someone kicks out one of the posts to the pillowfort that's frequently endgame unless my hand is small but has everything I need to rebuild quickly. If I can visibly recover I generally don't because opponents know to get in while they can. If I can't recover I just sit there and watch the match play out.
The deck also has trouble with opponent's big turns. The best example is my friend's Xenagos, God of Revels deck. It ramps a lot frequently with a Worldly Tutor into Lotus Cobra a couple turns later with the massive ramp casts Tooth and Nail entwined and some haste enchantment for the win or end step gets Avenger of Zendikar on the field then Craterhoof Behemoth for the win. Not a lot our sorcery speed control deck can do against that. Stranglehold doesn't help since he's main green. Humility has a similar problem but is more likely to slow him down, but never fully stops him. Ensnaring Bridge is also easily removed but his usual response is instead death by plant tokens ramped after the attack with mana backed Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.
Anyone want to offer me suggestions/advice on how to make piloting this deck fun for me and not torture for my opponents?
Final thought: I think Contagion Engine is undervalued in this thread. It does more for this deck than Doubling Season in most board scenarios and doesn't need to be played prior to the planeswalkers to be effective. It can ramp with Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia. It combos with planeswalkers better than Doubling Season simply due to timing, but with Tezzeret the Seeker and Venser, the Sojourner especially well. It provides edict-like mass removal for one player's board (or multiple if you can blink it), especially if you have Humility out and shrinks damage on the way to killing the big things. Contagion Engine frequently draws more hate than even The Chain Veil from my more competitive play groups. I wouldn't advocate it as a replacement to Doubling Season but I really think it deserves a slot as a win con.
I had been kicking around the idea of building super friends for a while. When I saw the new Teferi I decided it was time. I play with 3 different playgroups consistently and a couple more infrequently and so far I dislike it. More than that my friends dislike it more than my Kaervek the Merciless deck which does a much better job as a control deck but is frequently cruel.
In the majority of my play groups extra turns are considered bad play since we like to have full 4 or 5 man games (sometimes as high as 7 or 8) and making a round longer than necessary paints a target on your forehead quickly. That said I don't find I need the extra turns if I play the game well for this style of deck (fly under the radar as long as possible until the ramp and concealing my threats can put me far enough ahead).
The only way I regularly win is to make the game unbearable for my opponents and usually not much fun for myself either. Or I just cast the Queen early and swing away but at that point why am I playing super friends and not slivers? The game when I dropped Humility on turn 3 and Night of Souls' Betrayal the turn after followed by 8 rounds of goldfishing on my opponents' parts for removal and my slowly ticking up the couple planeswalkers (Wildspeaker and Tamyio) I had fielded was agonizing. Then game ended when I dropped Sterling Grove on turn 13 and everyone just scooped.
The deck also just doesn't win quickly. EDH decks are usually robust enough that using one planeswalker's ultimate just isn't game breaking even the more powerful ones like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Of the 19 planeswalkers my deck fields only Karn Liberated and Jace, the Mind Sculptor cause end game and sometimes not even then. Meanwhile it's pretty obvious to the rest of the table what the deck is trying to do. The deck itself hampers political play.
I think the Achilles' Heel is that the deck just doesn't hit hard enough fast enough. Good aggro decks outspeed it and good control decks are just better at control. With multiple planeswalkers out I often feel my turn just consists of a checklist of abilities rather than playing according to what's actually happening. The deck also doesn't benefit from card production the way other decks can, usually because most of the stuff we cast is either too expensive for multiple plays or extraneous. Also when someone kicks out one of the posts to the pillowfort that's frequently endgame unless my hand is small but has everything I need to rebuild quickly. If I can visibly recover I generally don't because opponents know to get in while they can. If I can't recover I just sit there and watch the match play out.
The deck also has trouble with opponent's big turns. The best example is my friend's Xenagos, God of Revels deck. It ramps a lot frequently with a Worldly Tutor into Lotus Cobra a couple turns later with the massive ramp casts Tooth and Nail entwined and some haste enchantment for the win or end step gets Avenger of Zendikar on the field then Craterhoof Behemoth for the win. Not a lot our sorcery speed control deck can do against that. Stranglehold doesn't help since he's main green. Humility has a similar problem but is more likely to slow him down, but never fully stops him. Ensnaring Bridge is also easily removed but his usual response is instead death by plant tokens ramped after the attack with mana backed Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.
Anyone want to offer me suggestions/advice on how to make piloting this deck fun for me and not torture for my opponents?
Final thought: I think Contagion Engine is undervalued in this thread. It does more for this deck than Doubling Season in most board scenarios and doesn't need to be played prior to the planeswalkers to be effective. It can ramp with Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia. It combos with planeswalkers better than Doubling Season simply due to timing, but with Tezzeret the Seeker and Venser, the Sojourner especially well. It provides edict-like mass removal for one player's board (or multiple if you can blink it), especially if you have Humility out and shrinks damage on the way to killing the big things. Contagion Engine frequently draws more hate than even The Chain Veil from my more competitive play groups. I wouldn't advocate it as a replacement to Doubling Season but I really think it deserves a slot as a win con.
Hey, I really appreciate the feedback and thoughts you've contributed to the thread! I think your right that when it comes down to winning the game, typically your opponents just realize that your board position is much too powerful to deal with. Although, I'm fine with that. I think given opponents that are willing to play out the games, you can typically win through an ultimate such as Garruk, Primal Hunter, Ral Zarek, Jace, Architect of Thought, etc. That, or just assembling a massive army of tokens through the various token generators. But, I'll admit that it is hard to make this deck resilient to aggressive decks, while also making it fun for your opponents to play against. Either you really try and combat the aggressive decks, through wraths and various creature control tools, or, get stomped. Anyways, if I were to offer a strategy, maybe push the token theme further to help protect yourself and your planeswalker, simultaneously? Does anyone else have suggestions for fathervenom?
On Contagion Engine, I do see how the card can be useful, and maybe it should be something I should reconsider. Although, when I first started playing this deck I was playing a couple proliferate cards, but I found them to be not as useful as they appear. Sure they can help accelerate your ultimate fairly quickly, to truly get value out of them it requires four to five planeswalkers on board. At this point it is essentially win-more. I don't know, maybe it has been such a long time that I have played with them that I don't recognize the value of proliferate. Another thing, which I can only say for me, is that the main goal of using the planeswalkers for me is not the ultimate, which really is all proliferate gets you to, but the ability to gain card advantage every turn.
Always get value out of him in games. I either fact or fiction twice or save him in hand for the ultimate under Doubling Season. I did that recently early in the game. Stealing from my two opponents made me archenemy for sure. Lost because of it. Next time I went for my Omniscience and cast my hand. Also made me archenemy but won that one. So like I said, value but can gets me hate.
Always get value out of him in games. I either fact or fiction twice or save him in hand for the ultimate under Doubling Season. I did that recently early in the game. Stealing from my two opponents made me archenemy for sure. Lost because of it. Next time I went for my Omniscience and cast my hand. Also made me archenemy but won that one. So like I said, value but can gets me hate.
Seems like a good idea. I've been bouncing back and fourth between Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury and Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, but both of them seem underwhelming, and more expensive than Jace. His ultimate is one of those "I win!" type of ultimates, and, like you said, is Doubling Seasonable.
So, here's an update: Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury -> Jace, Architect of Thought - As explained, I've been trying to optimize the value out of my planeswalkers and Freyalise has been quite underwhelming. Jace at least draws, can help protect you and your planeswalkers, and can very well ultimate to end the game.
Always get value out of him in games. I either fact or fiction twice or save him in hand for the ultimate under Doubling Season. I did that recently early in the game. Stealing from my two opponents made me archenemy for sure. Lost because of it. Next time I went for my Omniscience and cast my hand. Also made me archenemy but won that one. So like I said, value but can gets me hate.
Seems like a good idea. I've been bouncing back and fourth between Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury and Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, but both of them seem underwhelming, and more expensive than Jace. His ultimate is one of those "I win!" type of ultimates, and, like you said, is Doubling Seasonable.
So, here's an update: Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury -> Jace, Architect of Thought - As explained, I've been trying to optimize the value out of my planeswalkers and Freyalise has been quite underwhelming. Jace at least draws, can help protect you and your planeswalkers, and can very well ultimate to end the game.
I've been considering Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. Your feedback helps me in that she might be underwhelming like I feared. I have considered taking out Elspeth Tirel as well. She is the weakest one of the Elspeths I think. Usually -2 to get some dudes and then next turn gain some life. I like the threat of blowing her up after activating once, but not that she destroys other walkers. I don't know. I even thought about adding Red Elemental Blast just to stop Villainous Wealth. Two in my group plays it against me now...
Jace, Architect of Thought combos well with Humility but giving your opponents choices never works in your favor especially with recurring planeswalkers being a hassle. His ultimate might win you the game or it might tutor the spell your opponent needs for them. EDH decks are often resilient enough to recover from 3 to 4 powerful spells. All that aside, he's definitely more value than Freyalise who frequently gets her tokens wrathed away and has a terrible ultimate for our deck. Though repeatable artifact/enchantment hate has been useful the few times I dropped her. I run both.
Jace, Architect of Thought combos well with Humility but giving your opponents choices never works in your favor especially with recurring planeswalkers being a hassle. His ultimate might win you the game or it might tutor the spell your opponent needs for them. EDH decks are often resilient enough to recover from 3 to 4 powerful spells. All that aside, he's definitely more value than Freyalise who frequently gets her tokens wrathed away and has a terrible ultimate for our deck. Though repeatable artifact/enchantment hate has been useful the few times I dropped her. I run both.
What did you mean by Jace tutoring spells for the opponent? It would be nice to see your list @fathervenom for comparison.
I'm definitely going to go through testing with Jace. This is one thing I really like about this deck is that it is constantly evolving and adapting.
On Villainous Wealth, I'm sort of surprise I have yet to see it in my meta. The card seems really good. I'm not too sure how to answer it, maybe, as I stated, a card that gives you hexproof/shroud? Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb
Even though I've had an account on this site for years, this thread is the first one that got me posting so I can't start quoting in the usual way yet.
quote from Trav_Ragnar
"On Contagion Engine, I do see how the card can be useful, and maybe it should be something I should reconsider. Although, when I first started playing this deck I was playing a couple proliferate cards, but I found them to be not as useful as they appear. Sure they can help accelerate your ultimate fairly quickly, to truly get value out of them it requires four to five planeswalkers on board. At this point it is essentially win-more. I don't know, maybe it has been such a long time that I have played with them that I don't recognize the value of proliferate. Another thing, which I can only say for me, is that the main goal of using the planeswalkers for me is not the ultimate, which really is all proliferate gets you to, but the ability to gain card advantage every turn."
Looking at Contagion Engine like that is unnecessarily limiting what it does for you. There are a bunch of planeswalkers that have subtracting abilities that are better than their adding abilities (Most Jaces and most Lilianas). Proliferate allows us to use those negative abilities much more often. But that's just what it does for the main theme. There's the controlling aspect of the card to consider also. 10 mana to permanently shrink someone's board by 3 (especially decks that specialize in utility creatures) with potential to shrink an additional 2 on subsequent turns (or the same turn with Tezz) which gets around shroud and hexproof is a little costly, but that's its secondary function in this deck. I really recommend it. I even run Contagion Clasp because it's an early drop that you can use to take out early utility creatures like Lotus Cobra, Fauna Shaman, and Deathrite Shaman without drawing too much hate. On it being "win-more", super friends is slow to win compared to other deck archetypes like Voltron or Combo, I've had 5 planewalkers active and had the board locked down for multiple rounds without winning so I'll take anything I can get.
quote from Temporal_Archmage
"What did you mean by Jace tutoring spells for the opponent? It would be nice to see your list fathervenom for comparison."
Most good EDH decks have some recursion abilities, especially the lands that do so such as Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold if those cards work at all in the deck. Even super friends has this element with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. This means that the longer the game goes on the better recursion is at getting players the card they want just due to cards being drawn, played, discarded, or milled. What Jace, Architect of Thought's ultimate does is tutor other decks' most powerful spells for them. You could choose to leave the card exiled by not casting it, but that's terrible value. You could try to choose suboptimal spells based on what colors you're facing to try to work around those specific colors' recursion specialties, but that's limiting. If you use Jace's ultimate and don't win, you have just put the card that is more likely to help your opponent win in their graveyard where it can be recurred. It's not a good enough reason to cut him, but it's something to watch out for when playing him.
TL;DR - Recursion
List ahoy! Like I said in my first post, the majority of my play groups heavily frown on Time Walk effects so I've elected to run Gods instead. They're hard to deal with, boost my Sphere of Safety, and sometimes they hit hard. I just have to make sure they don't gain devotion while Humility is on the field.
Few notes on some of the individual cards: Spike Weaver combos well with Doubling Season, proliferate, and Humility as long as he lands first. I find I wrath him a lot though. Sensei's Divining Top Often a terrible card late game Elixir of Immortality This deck often struggles to keep the life total up. Our playgroups occasionally see some mill strategies, but more often Project: Group Hug. This will make sure all that drawing doesn't kill us. Also planeswalkers are some of the hardest cards to recur. Coalition Relic A 3 cost artifact that adds 2 of different colors on a turn is ok, but then you drop Doubling Season or Mana Reflection or proliferate on an opponent's end step and this card really shines. It's no Sol Ring but sometimes it can be better. Collective Restraint Doesn't protect planeswalkers, but people don't often think about that even if they know how the card works. Also helps against people who try to go for the kill while ignoring the 'walkers or during rebuilding. Leyline of Sanctity a new addition, but protects my 'walkers from burn Ajani Steadfast I'm still not sold on him either way. He can gain significant life just targeting Sliver Queen which this deck needs sometimes. When I proliferate he's fantastic. Can break up a Humility stand off. Karn Liberated He feels very mean spirited, but he's a friend and he deals with troublesome lands which nothing else in the deck does. Tezzeret the Seeker I was ready to feel underwhelmed with this guy, but more often than not he's my MVP. Sets up the only infinite combo in the deck by himself. Vraska the Unseen She's ok, another of those planeswalkers I'd rather just neg all the time, but if I get to ult her I just pop off Venser, the Sojourner's -2 and win.
I just took out Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. 37 lands felt a little much with the additional enchantment and artifact acceleration, plus Chromatic Lantern does this without letting that random swampwalker (stupid Shizo...) get through or potentially fixing my opponents' mana.
You mention how Karn deals with troublesome lands and such, but have you not yet contemplated cards such as Vindicate or Beast Within? Again, on proliferate cards, I've played with them, and they just feel too clunky sometimes. It's like Doubling Season, but in my opinion worse. You draw it, it's sorta exciting, but I almost always feel as though I want to cast something else. I respect that the majority of the super friends decks play these cards, though. If I want to get this thread the primer tag I should probably address the appeal and my opinion on proliferate cards in the OP. I do appreciate your insight, though. I don't know, maybe when I feel the deck is starting to get stagnate I'll test them out for a bit.
Hey, @fathervenom. I'm glad you decided to start posting. You insight is great. Many well thought out opinions. I'm also a happy contributor to this thread because this is my favorite deck to play. I don't mean to try and take it over by any exessive posting or anything @Trav_Ragnar. I am just very interested in where to take this deck next.
I have also thought about using Gods in the deck but its hard to find room. They have been very dissapointing in other EDH decks I play, except for Purphoros, God of the Forge in my Animar, Soul of Elements deck. I think Mogis and Keranos look most interesting in this deck though. I'm tempted to try. I have a playgroup where we occationaly take new ideas and test them against eachother. I get what you mean about Jace, Architect of Thought now. There have been games where I have fetched Omniscience and won off of that. Other games I have not been successful winning with him after ultimating. But still in favor of using him.
He is boss for sure! Protects himself with first 2 abilities and the ultimate is win. Almost like Omniscience. Funny that his ultimate is similar to Bolas but also inverse. He will be in my deck!
I like him. The wipe is great with sliver queen tokens and the ult can be popped straight up with doubling season. Value town with rings. It has more utility than omniscience if you can ult him.
I like him. The wipe is great with sliver queen tokens and the ult can be popped straight up with doubling season. Value town with rings. It has more utility than omniscience if you can ult him.
I totally forgot about the Sliver Queen tokens! I was trying to think what kind of benefit, besides just a board wipe, that I could get out of his minus. But yeah, I think his real strength comes from the ultimate which is just awesome, and easily accessible without even Doubling Season.
We need to be prepared to fight AGAINST Ugin as well. Thoughts on this? I'm thinking about catch all removal like Vindicate and Utter End
Yeah, I mean I already run both and recommend both. But I definitely can see him being a decent problem to be staring down. He can Bolt our planeswalkers, or he can just board wipe them all away. His minus is especially dangerous because I often find myself during late game in which I have 3+ planeswalkers on board, and my opponents typically have no way to deal with them. This is a pretty good way to do so, especially considering that almost no planeswalkers go over 7 CMC.
There is not much that you can do when he gets played aside from counter magic. He will be activated once. After that its just another threat. I worry a lot more of seeing cyclonic rift than anything else.
There is not much that you can do when he gets played aside from counter magic. He will be activated once. After that its just another threat. I worry a lot more of seeing cyclonic rift than anything else.
Yeah, I mean Cyclonic Rift is obviously no new threat to the meta, in any archetype. So long he doesn't minus, you can still prevent him from wrecking your board.
Cards like these could have a spot if the deck was completely different. 1-for-1s (or worse like Beast Within which leaves them with a potentially credible threat versus our planeswalkers) are either answers to problems with the deck's construction (which I don't really think is an issue with this deck as it has 2 planeswalkers that can deal with any type of permanent and a couple tutors to find them as necessary) or are there for tempo, but we're really not a tempo control deck and we're certainly not a tempo aggro deck.
quote from Temporal_Archmage "Hey, @fathervenom. I'm glad you decided to start posting. You insight is great. Many well thought out opinions."
Hey thanks!
quote from Temporal_Archmage "I have also thought about using Gods in the deck but its hard to find room. They have been very dissapointing in other EDH decks I play..."
Oh Time Walk effects are definitely a better option than gods, but this deck has gained reputation and I'm now targeted just for playing it. No need to make that worse. Kruphix, God of Horizons has been stellar in this deck though. I used it and Mana Reflection to build up 30 charge counters on Astral Cornucopia by turn 7 for 60 additional mana that turn. Cue the steamroll.
The new Ugin deserves a spot. It's not significantly good on its own, especially in decks that like to limit their hand size, unless you're facing a token deck. 3 damage only deals with utility creatures in EDH and is a pin prick to life totals. The negative is a safety valve but our deck is worse than many at rebuilding from a wipe like that unless it's 3 or less and at that point it's not going to hit most boards in a crippling way especially since it missed mana rocks. The ultimate could be game breaking, but only if you had it set up ahead of time or lucked into it somehow and I'd never play around it. Playing against it isn't any different than playing against Genesis Wave or Primal Surge. Unless they win with those cards someone is going to wipe and they wasted a ton of cards unnecessarily. Unless they drop it and immediately spend it, but nobody is overextending because that's bad playing, right? That said, there's definitely some value to him every turn even if it is only a pin prick. 40 pin pricks can still win some games.
I'm almost ready to give up this deck. I played a game Wednesday last week that was incredibly disheartening. It was a 3 player game. To my left was a Sliver Overlord and across from him was a Prime Speaker Zegana. Over the first few rounds the sliver player dropped both mana slivers and then his general and started tutoring then played Armageddon. The UG player put out some utility creatures then dropped Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir but started focusing on my poor start instead of dealing with the obvious threat the slivers' presented. Don't ask me why. My turns were ramp into Sorin, Solemn Visitor for blockers, Tezzeret the Seeker, and Jace Beleren which I had only increased to try to help us deal with the slivers. Right before the Armageddon I dropped an Academy Rector but had lost most of my planeswalkers. Tezz had tutored up Sol Ring and I had dropped Chromatic Lantern before the MLD. I used Enlightened Tutor to fetch up Expedition Map which I used to grab Academy Ruins and made sure I was dropping lands as I needed every turn. That alone almost made the sliver player scoop (not unusual for him). The UG player decided he really needed my remaining planeswalkers dead so he swung into my Rector. I grabbed Humility at which point the sliver player did scoop and the UG player frowned but didn't scoop. 17 turns later he scooped to go home with him having drawn only 3 mana sources and no action on my end either since I didn't have a draw engine or a planeswalker on the field. They weren't the most boring 17 turns of Magic I've ever played but they were close. My opponent was clearly upset when he finally scooped. Definitely not the types of games I want to be playing.
Without any other suggestions to make the deck more enjoyable I'm done with this deck except for rare occasions.
As for what I would cut for it, I think I'd cut Garruk, Primal Hunter before Garruk, Apex Predator as often times GPH does absolutely nothing on a clean board state OR I cannot cast him at all due to GGG.
I play The Abyss in my deck. I think it's alright like Yalpe said. Here are some thoughts:
UPSIDE
- It's fairly cheap to cast. Meaning in a five- color deck you only need one colored mana symbol to get it out, which is helpful. The CMC of 4 isn't bad either. In addition it kills early- to midgame creatures/commanders such as Oracle of Mul-Daya, Omnath, Locus of Mana and Consecrated Sphinx to name a few.
- It's removal that sticks around. It saves you from using some of your other removal spells. Dropping it on my turn after the opponets have cast some creatures and watching them get killed off on their following turns. Since we run a token sub-theme it doesn't hurt us as much and thrumps mass removal if the opponets doesn't have an army of course.
- Card advantage. One of your cards stays on board and removes multiple cards.
DOWNSIDE
- Doesn't kill artifact creatures, indestructible creatures or shrouded creatures. Although this is a downside, it is also well to note that it has not been relevant that many times.
- Easily and often removed. It goes away pretty quick, but that also means it annoys the opponents enough to destroy it. At the same time I don't feel like I get hate because of it.
To sum it up I don't know if it's a card you absolutely need. But everytime it's in my hand I want to cast it. And like I said it's disrupting enough for the opponents to remove it. I run it and will continue to do so.
In the majority of my play groups extra turns are considered bad play since we like to have full 4 or 5 man games (sometimes as high as 7 or 8) and making a round longer than necessary paints a target on your forehead quickly. That said I don't find I need the extra turns if I play the game well for this style of deck (fly under the radar as long as possible until the ramp and concealing my threats can put me far enough ahead).
The only way I regularly win is to make the game unbearable for my opponents and usually not much fun for myself either. Or I just cast the Queen early and swing away but at that point why am I playing super friends and not slivers? The game when I dropped Humility on turn 3 and Night of Souls' Betrayal the turn after followed by 8 rounds of goldfishing on my opponents' parts for removal and my slowly ticking up the couple planeswalkers (Wildspeaker and Tamyio) I had fielded was agonizing. Then game ended when I dropped Sterling Grove on turn 13 and everyone just scooped.
The deck also just doesn't win quickly. EDH decks are usually robust enough that using one planeswalker's ultimate just isn't game breaking even the more powerful ones like Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Of the 19 planeswalkers my deck fields only Karn Liberated and Jace, the Mind Sculptor cause end game and sometimes not even then. Meanwhile it's pretty obvious to the rest of the table what the deck is trying to do. The deck itself hampers political play.
I think the Achilles' Heel is that the deck just doesn't hit hard enough fast enough. Good aggro decks outspeed it and good control decks are just better at control. With multiple planeswalkers out I often feel my turn just consists of a checklist of abilities rather than playing according to what's actually happening. The deck also doesn't benefit from card production the way other decks can, usually because most of the stuff we cast is either too expensive for multiple plays or extraneous. Also when someone kicks out one of the posts to the pillowfort that's frequently endgame unless my hand is small but has everything I need to rebuild quickly. If I can visibly recover I generally don't because opponents know to get in while they can. If I can't recover I just sit there and watch the match play out.
The deck also has trouble with opponent's big turns. The best example is my friend's Xenagos, God of Revels deck. It ramps a lot frequently with a Worldly Tutor into Lotus Cobra a couple turns later with the massive ramp casts Tooth and Nail entwined and some haste enchantment for the win or end step gets Avenger of Zendikar on the field then Craterhoof Behemoth for the win. Not a lot our sorcery speed control deck can do against that. Stranglehold doesn't help since he's main green. Humility has a similar problem but is more likely to slow him down, but never fully stops him. Ensnaring Bridge is also easily removed but his usual response is instead death by plant tokens ramped after the attack with mana backed Kamahl, Fist of Krosa.
Anyone want to offer me suggestions/advice on how to make piloting this deck fun for me and not torture for my opponents?
Final thought: I think Contagion Engine is undervalued in this thread. It does more for this deck than Doubling Season in most board scenarios and doesn't need to be played prior to the planeswalkers to be effective. It can ramp with Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia. It combos with planeswalkers better than Doubling Season simply due to timing, but with Tezzeret the Seeker and Venser, the Sojourner especially well. It provides edict-like mass removal for one player's board (or multiple if you can blink it), especially if you have Humility out and shrinks damage on the way to killing the big things. Contagion Engine frequently draws more hate than even The Chain Veil from my more competitive play groups. I wouldn't advocate it as a replacement to Doubling Season but I really think it deserves a slot as a win con.
On Contagion Engine, I do see how the card can be useful, and maybe it should be something I should reconsider. Although, when I first started playing this deck I was playing a couple proliferate cards, but I found them to be not as useful as they appear. Sure they can help accelerate your ultimate fairly quickly, to truly get value out of them it requires four to five planeswalkers on board. At this point it is essentially win-more. I don't know, maybe it has been such a long time that I have played with them that I don't recognize the value of proliferate. Another thing, which I can only say for me, is that the main goal of using the planeswalkers for me is not the ultimate, which really is all proliferate gets you to, but the ability to gain card advantage every turn.
Always get value out of him in games. I either fact or fiction twice or save him in hand for the ultimate under Doubling Season. I did that recently early in the game. Stealing from my two opponents made me archenemy for sure. Lost because of it. Next time I went for my Omniscience and cast my hand. Also made me archenemy but won that one. So like I said, value but can gets me hate.
So, here's an update:
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury -> Jace, Architect of Thought - As explained, I've been trying to optimize the value out of my planeswalkers and Freyalise has been quite underwhelming. Jace at least draws, can help protect you and your planeswalkers, and can very well ultimate to end the game.
I've been considering Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. Your feedback helps me in that she might be underwhelming like I feared. I have considered taking out Elspeth Tirel as well. She is the weakest one of the Elspeths I think. Usually -2 to get some dudes and then next turn gain some life. I like the threat of blowing her up after activating once, but not that she destroys other walkers. I don't know. I even thought about adding Red Elemental Blast just to stop Villainous Wealth. Two in my group plays it against me now...
What did you mean by Jace tutoring spells for the opponent? It would be nice to see your list @fathervenom for comparison.
On Villainous Wealth, I'm sort of surprise I have yet to see it in my meta. The card seems really good. I'm not too sure how to answer it, maybe, as I stated, a card that gives you hexproof/shroud? Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb
quote from Trav_Ragnar
"On Contagion Engine, I do see how the card can be useful, and maybe it should be something I should reconsider. Although, when I first started playing this deck I was playing a couple proliferate cards, but I found them to be not as useful as they appear. Sure they can help accelerate your ultimate fairly quickly, to truly get value out of them it requires four to five planeswalkers on board. At this point it is essentially win-more. I don't know, maybe it has been such a long time that I have played with them that I don't recognize the value of proliferate. Another thing, which I can only say for me, is that the main goal of using the planeswalkers for me is not the ultimate, which really is all proliferate gets you to, but the ability to gain card advantage every turn."
Looking at Contagion Engine like that is unnecessarily limiting what it does for you. There are a bunch of planeswalkers that have subtracting abilities that are better than their adding abilities (Most Jaces and most Lilianas). Proliferate allows us to use those negative abilities much more often. But that's just what it does for the main theme. There's the controlling aspect of the card to consider also. 10 mana to permanently shrink someone's board by 3 (especially decks that specialize in utility creatures) with potential to shrink an additional 2 on subsequent turns (or the same turn with Tezz) which gets around shroud and hexproof is a little costly, but that's its secondary function in this deck. I really recommend it. I even run Contagion Clasp because it's an early drop that you can use to take out early utility creatures like Lotus Cobra, Fauna Shaman, and Deathrite Shaman without drawing too much hate. On it being "win-more", super friends is slow to win compared to other deck archetypes like Voltron or Combo, I've had 5 planewalkers active and had the board locked down for multiple rounds without winning so I'll take anything I can get.
quote from Temporal_Archmage
"What did you mean by Jace tutoring spells for the opponent? It would be nice to see your list fathervenom for comparison."
Most good EDH decks have some recursion abilities, especially the lands that do so such as Academy Ruins and Volrath's Stronghold if those cards work at all in the deck. Even super friends has this element with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage. This means that the longer the game goes on the better recursion is at getting players the card they want just due to cards being drawn, played, discarded, or milled. What Jace, Architect of Thought's ultimate does is tutor other decks' most powerful spells for them. You could choose to leave the card exiled by not casting it, but that's terrible value. You could try to choose suboptimal spells based on what colors you're facing to try to work around those specific colors' recursion specialties, but that's limiting. If you use Jace's ultimate and don't win, you have just put the card that is more likely to help your opponent win in their graveyard where it can be recurred. It's not a good enough reason to cut him, but it's something to watch out for when playing him.
TL;DR - Recursion
List ahoy! Like I said in my first post, the majority of my play groups heavily frown on Time Walk effects so I've elected to run Gods instead. They're hard to deal with, boost my Sphere of Safety, and sometimes they hit hard. I just have to make sure they don't gain devotion while Humility is on the field.
1 Sliver Queen
Creatures
1 Academy Rector
1 Spike Weaver
Artifacts
1 Astral Cornucopia
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Coalition Relic
1 Contagion Clasp
1 Contagion Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 The Chain Veil
Enchantments
1 Collective Restraint
1 Doubling Season
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Humility
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Kruphix, God of Horizons
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mana Reflection
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Mogis, God of Slaughter
1 Overburden
1 Privileged Position
1 Rhystic Study
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Sterling Grove
1 Thasa, God of the Sea
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
1 Liliana Vess
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin Markov
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Venser, the Sojourner
1 Vraska the Unseen
Instants
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Evacuation
1 Return to Dust
1 Vampiric Tutor
Sorceries
1 Austere Command
1 Decree of Pain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
Lands
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Command Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Reliquary Tower
Few notes on some of the individual cards:
Spike Weaver combos well with Doubling Season, proliferate, and Humility as long as he lands first. I find I wrath him a lot though.
Sensei's Divining Top Often a terrible card late game
Elixir of Immortality This deck often struggles to keep the life total up. Our playgroups occasionally see some mill strategies, but more often Project: Group Hug. This will make sure all that drawing doesn't kill us. Also planeswalkers are some of the hardest cards to recur.
Coalition Relic A 3 cost artifact that adds 2 of different colors on a turn is ok, but then you drop Doubling Season or Mana Reflection or proliferate on an opponent's end step and this card really shines. It's no Sol Ring but sometimes it can be better.
Collective Restraint Doesn't protect planeswalkers, but people don't often think about that even if they know how the card works. Also helps against people who try to go for the kill while ignoring the 'walkers or during rebuilding.
Leyline of Sanctity a new addition, but protects my 'walkers from burn
Ajani Steadfast I'm still not sold on him either way. He can gain significant life just targeting Sliver Queen which this deck needs sometimes. When I proliferate he's fantastic. Can break up a Humility stand off.
Karn Liberated He feels very mean spirited, but he's a friend and he deals with troublesome lands which nothing else in the deck does.
Tezzeret the Seeker I was ready to feel underwhelmed with this guy, but more often than not he's my MVP. Sets up the only infinite combo in the deck by himself.
Vraska the Unseen She's ok, another of those planeswalkers I'd rather just neg all the time, but if I get to ult her I just pop off Venser, the Sojourner's -2 and win.
I just took out Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. 37 lands felt a little much with the additional enchantment and artifact acceleration, plus Chromatic Lantern does this without letting that random swampwalker (stupid Shizo...) get through or potentially fixing my opponents' mana.
I have also thought about using Gods in the deck but its hard to find room. They have been very dissapointing in other EDH decks I play, except for Purphoros, God of the Forge in my Animar, Soul of Elements deck. I think Mogis and Keranos look most interesting in this deck though. I'm tempted to try. I have a playgroup where we occationaly take new ideas and test them against eachother. I get what you mean about Jace, Architect of Thought now. There have been games where I have fetched Omniscience and won off of that. Other games I have not been successful winning with him after ultimating. But still in favor of using him.
The Abyss
4CMC
+0: Each player destroys one target non-artifact creature during their next upkeep.
And it cannot be attacked by creatures
So guys, now that the REAL Ugin is here. What's your opinion?
Yeah, I mean I already run both and recommend both. But I definitely can see him being a decent problem to be staring down. He can Bolt our planeswalkers, or he can just board wipe them all away. His minus is especially dangerous because I often find myself during late game in which I have 3+ planeswalkers on board, and my opponents typically have no way to deal with them. This is a pretty good way to do so, especially considering that almost no planeswalkers go over 7 CMC.
That is a pretty decent interaction. I don't even have that big of a token meta, but it does seem like a good way to deal with them.
Cards like these could have a spot if the deck was completely different. 1-for-1s (or worse like Beast Within which leaves them with a potentially credible threat versus our planeswalkers) are either answers to problems with the deck's construction (which I don't really think is an issue with this deck as it has 2 planeswalkers that can deal with any type of permanent and a couple tutors to find them as necessary) or are there for tempo, but we're really not a tempo control deck and we're certainly not a tempo aggro deck.
quote from Temporal_Archmage "Hey, @fathervenom. I'm glad you decided to start posting. You insight is great. Many well thought out opinions."
Hey thanks!
quote from Temporal_Archmage "I have also thought about using Gods in the deck but its hard to find room. They have been very dissapointing in other EDH decks I play..."
Oh Time Walk effects are definitely a better option than gods, but this deck has gained reputation and I'm now targeted just for playing it. No need to make that worse. Kruphix, God of Horizons has been stellar in this deck though. I used it and Mana Reflection to build up 30 charge counters on Astral Cornucopia by turn 7 for 60 additional mana that turn. Cue the steamroll.
The new Ugin deserves a spot. It's not significantly good on its own, especially in decks that like to limit their hand size, unless you're facing a token deck. 3 damage only deals with utility creatures in EDH and is a pin prick to life totals. The negative is a safety valve but our deck is worse than many at rebuilding from a wipe like that unless it's 3 or less and at that point it's not going to hit most boards in a crippling way especially since it missed mana rocks. The ultimate could be game breaking, but only if you had it set up ahead of time or lucked into it somehow and I'd never play around it. Playing against it isn't any different than playing against Genesis Wave or Primal Surge. Unless they win with those cards someone is going to wipe and they wasted a ton of cards unnecessarily. Unless they drop it and immediately spend it, but nobody is overextending because that's bad playing, right? That said, there's definitely some value to him every turn even if it is only a pin prick. 40 pin pricks can still win some games.
I'm almost ready to give up this deck. I played a game Wednesday last week that was incredibly disheartening. It was a 3 player game. To my left was a Sliver Overlord and across from him was a Prime Speaker Zegana. Over the first few rounds the sliver player dropped both mana slivers and then his general and started tutoring then played Armageddon. The UG player put out some utility creatures then dropped Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir but started focusing on my poor start instead of dealing with the obvious threat the slivers' presented. Don't ask me why. My turns were ramp into Sorin, Solemn Visitor for blockers, Tezzeret the Seeker, and Jace Beleren which I had only increased to try to help us deal with the slivers. Right before the Armageddon I dropped an Academy Rector but had lost most of my planeswalkers. Tezz had tutored up Sol Ring and I had dropped Chromatic Lantern before the MLD. I used Enlightened Tutor to fetch up Expedition Map which I used to grab Academy Ruins and made sure I was dropping lands as I needed every turn. That alone almost made the sliver player scoop (not unusual for him). The UG player decided he really needed my remaining planeswalkers dead so he swung into my Rector. I grabbed Humility at which point the sliver player did scoop and the UG player frowned but didn't scoop. 17 turns later he scooped to go home with him having drawn only 3 mana sources and no action on my end either since I didn't have a draw engine or a planeswalker on the field. They weren't the most boring 17 turns of Magic I've ever played but they were close. My opponent was clearly upset when he finally scooped. Definitely not the types of games I want to be playing.
Without any other suggestions to make the deck more enjoyable I'm done with this deck except for rare occasions.