I'd like to hear your opinion on destroy wraths vs wraths that goes around indestructible/regeneration. More specifically, why would you run Wrath of God over Toxic Deluge/Black Sun's Zenith or Austere Command over Merciless Eviction. I'd even consider Decree of Pain as a lategame draw engine or just a generic wipe with Humility in play.
I think if you're going to start off with a suite of wrath effects, I would start off with the ones that either tuck or exile. For example, I run Merciless Eviction, Hallowed Burial and Austere Command for my wrath effects. Well, also Nevinyrral's Disk. As stated by Temporal_Archmage, tuck effects are really nice since they get around indestructible and also tuck generals. Merciless Eviction is probably one of the best wraths out there, because you have the choice for different modes and it exiles. Then I Austere Command because it has the ability to chose different modes, such as Creatures CMC 4 or greater and artifacts, so that you can at least tailor the spell to take out what you want and leave behind what you don't. I think if you feel that you need that less then expected, I would suggest then running Terminus. Also, the only other "destory" wrath I really like is Supreme Verdict. It works really nice if you are in a creature/control heavy meta, like if you have an Animar, Soul of Elements player or a Jenara, Asura of War player. Another sort of unconventional wrath, if your deck hosts creatures, is Ixidron. He's a really nice sweeper because he kind of acts like one of the tuck spells, at least momentarily.
Another card I want to bring up for discussion is Aura Shards. @Temporal_Archmage, I see that you are not running it. Have you ever? If so, what made you drop it. Obviously I am running it, but I have started noticing how much I really am started to not like the card. It is a pretty bad early game draw, and rarely gets explosive during the late game because people generally have removal to deal with it, if need be. I'm not sure what would take its place, I wish there was some more unconditional removal out there. Opinions?
Another card I want to bring up for discussion is Aura Shards. @Temporal_Archmage, I see that you are not running it. Have you ever? If so, what made you drop it. Obviously I am running it, but I have started noticing how much I really am started to not like the card. It is a pretty bad early game draw, and rarely gets explosive during the late game because people generally have removal to deal with it, if need be. I'm not sure what would take its place, I wish there was some more unconditional removal out there. Opinions?
I love Aura Shards. Its great. But I found that I wanted something that hit permanents (or nonland) permanents rather than just artifacts and enchantments. And something that hit them right of the bat like Vindicate. Thing is that it can be really powerful if you can produce more than one token a turn and just blow out the board of artifacts and enchantments. But it is as you say, it draws hate and gets removed. I decided to take it out. I'm considering Beast Within and Oblation. What are your experiences with these?
Another thing I was contemplating was Bribery. It is of course a staple and very good ect. But the reason why I'm considering is ever since I started to play this deck my opponents have started to run more powerful and harder to remove creatures. I was thinking that if I can steal their biggest threat and use it as a defender of my palneswalkers and put some preasurre on the board. I don't think it fits the theme though and it would be a stand alone card.
I love Aura Shards. Its great. But I found that I wanted something that hit permanents (or nonland) permanents rather than just artifacts and enchantments. And something that hit them right of the bat like Vindicate. Thing is that it can be really powerful if you can produce more than one token a turn and just blow out the board of artifacts and enchantments. But it is as you say, it draws hate and gets removed. I decided to take it out. I'm considering Beast Within and Oblation. What are your experiences with these?
Another thing I was contemplating was Bribery. It is of course a staple and very good ect. But the reason why I'm considering is ever since I started to play this deck my opponents have started to run more powerful and harder to remove creatures. I was thinking that if I can steal their biggest threat and use it as a defender of my palneswalkers and put some preasurre on the board. I don't think it fits the theme though and it would be a stand alone card.
Yeah, like I said though, I am unsure on what to replace it with. What I have found is essentially it requires a lot going on for it to work out. I can see it going out, maybe for Vraska the Unseen? That would up the total converted mana cost of the deck, but I think it's something for me to consider. Another option I'm considering is Swords to Plowshares. One of the best CREATURE removal spells in the format, which is needed from time-to-time. Like I said, it's something I'm going to have to deliberate on.
On Beast Within and Oblation: They are great. I consider Beast Within to be a staple, and probably one of the best, if not the best removal spell in the format. Leaving behind a 3/3 is not a very relevant downside, in my opinion. Oblation is quite nice to, and it does its just really nice, but probably a little less better. Although, it is nice because it can just eat up a token for instant speed draw two.
Bribery seems fine, but like you said, it does not fit the theme so well. It it something I've contemplated, but I just don't know if that's what I want to be doing with the deck. It seems like resolving Bribery generally puts a target on your forehead.
I love Aura Shards. Its great. But I found that I wanted something that hit permanents (or nonland) permanents rather than just artifacts and enchantments. And something that hit them right of the bat like Vindicate. Thing is that it can be really powerful if you can produce more than one token a turn and just blow out the board of artifacts and enchantments. But it is as you say, it draws hate and gets removed. I decided to take it out. I'm considering Beast Within and Oblation. What are your experiences with these?
Another thing I was contemplating was Bribery. It is of course a staple and very good ect. But the reason why I'm considering is ever since I started to play this deck my opponents have started to run more powerful and harder to remove creatures. I was thinking that if I can steal their biggest threat and use it as a defender of my palneswalkers and put some preasurre on the board. I don't think it fits the theme though and it would be a stand alone card.
Yeah, like I said though, I am unsure on what to replace it with. What I have found is essentially it requires a lot going on for it to work out. I can see it going out, maybe for Vraska the Unseen? That would up the total converted mana cost of the deck, but I think it's something for me to consider. Another option I'm considering is Swords to Plowshares. One of the best CREATURE removal spells in the format, which is needed from time-to-time. Like I said, it's something I'm going to have to deliberate on.
On Beast Within and Oblation: They are great. I consider Beast Within to be a staple, and probably one of the best, if not the best removal spell in the format. Leaving behind a 3/3 is not a very relevant downside, in my opinion. Oblation is quite nice to, and it does its just really nice, but probably a little less better. Although, it is nice because it can just eat up a token for instant speed draw two.
Bribery seems fine, but like you said, it does not fit the theme so well. It it something I've contemplated, but I just don't know if that's what I want to be doing with the deck. It seems like resolving Bribery generally puts a target on your forehead.
Vraska, the Unseen on paper looks like a removal spell for 5 mana, but I was never sad to draw her and she always draws removal, which means my opponents thinks she is troublesome. Swords to Plowshares I have considered as well along with Path to Exile. More than once I have wanted to remove only one threat, like the only flier on board that I can't block. And its easy to leave up one mana. One card I'm considering is Mogis, God of Slaughter. The two life loss is not great in EDH. though. I think the gods are something to consider since they are enchantments and the walkers help them with devotion and the gods help them with indestructible blocking. Keranos, God of Storms is also good I think.
After thinking about it more, I think I will either be running one of the one mana, white exile effects (Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares) or Unexpectedly Absent. Obviously the exile effects do their job quite well. Unexpectedly Absent is something I have played in various other decks, and it seemed to always do quite a good job. Now with Khans reprinting the Onslaught fetchlands, consequently my meta includes a lot more shuffling effects in them.
The Gods are definetely something I've thought about. The only one the really appeals to me is probably Keranos, God of Storms, but I don't really see anything I would want to cut for it at the moment. If you happen to test him, let me know. He seems like he would provide some nice card advantage while also being able to pick off pesky commanders like Riku of Two Reflections.
I thought it could be helpful if I wrote down some of my matchups. Maybe that will help explain some of my choises. My meta consists of:
GOmnath, Locust of Mana. Heavy ramp with big creatures, including Eldrazi. This deck is easilly beaten with wrath effects most of the time. Trouble for me if he hits all his ramp to fast. But usually easy to beat.
UGBDamia, Sage of Stone. This deck relies on spells to win and is a little trickier to beat. It also ramps and builds up towards Villainous Wealth and steals my walkers. Other steals too like Volition Reins and counterspells. The trick here is to empty my hand and get as many permanents as I can onto the battlefield since they are safer there despite the fact that they can get stolen. One of the reasons I added counterspells myself.
GURBWScion of the Ur-Dragon. Builds up towards the Dragon and swings. Easy to predict. Uses the dead dragons again with reanimator spells. Fairly easy to best but it sucks to get hit by Nicol Bolas. So I need to keep a removal option open. Many times an instant one to because some reanimator attacks. The deck is slow and usually has one or two creatures out which makes it easy to keep walkers alive.
BGeth, Lord of the Vault. Necropotence all the way. Despite being limited to one color this deck relies heavilly on artifacts and can be fast and deadly. Using a mix of creatures and spells and a mix of discard, mill and beatdown makes it hard to predict what to defend against next. Uses a lot of life so if I get some tokens going I usually don't have to attack many times.
Thats some of the most frequent decks I face. I hope this was useful in some way. Its just to show that the Superfriends deck is not perfect but it isn't a deck that is weak to a specific deck type either. At least as far as I can see.
Hey, thanks a lot! I think your meta information definitely provides us a lot more insight on different match-ups. I appreciate all of the work you have spent contributing to this thread, Temporal_Archmage! Do you think covering match-ups is something I should do in the OP?
Also, another card came up in my head when debating what is going to replace Aura Shards: Intuition. Obviously any who has played it knows this cards strengths whenever you can dedicate different three card piles in the deck for it. When looking at my list, here are a few Intuition piles that I came up with:
Hey, thanks a lot! I think your meta information definitely provides us a lot more insight on different match-ups. I appreciate all of the work you have spent contributing to this thread, Temporal_Archmage! Do you think covering match-ups is something I should do in the OP?
Thanks! I like this thread and discussion. I think your card choises and reasoning behind them are very good and that helps my deck become better as well. As for having match-ups in the OP then yes I think so. But maybe include match-ups that are very common for people to face (Kaalia, Mimeoplasm, Riku and so on) if you have some of those in your meta of course. If this thread gets primer status then it would be good to have some common match-up analisys enlisted. But, its time consuming though.
I like the Intuition idea. The only fear I have with this card is the limited recursion options, though the "piles- idea" you present covers this. Its instant, its cheap, it gets anything. Too bad your opponets chose which card you get, but if you get three win conditions then it doesn't matter. I own this card and I think I should consider playtesting. I have some multiplayer games coming up this week so we will see how it fares.
Did you use to have Snapcaster Mage in the deck? I was thinking with tutors, wraths and counters it would be a good choise. But is it too narrow? Dead early draw?
So after deliberating for awhile, I decided that I was just going to make this change:
- Aura Shards
+ Unexpectedly Absent
As cool as it was to gun down people's artifacts and enchantments with Aura Shards and Sliver Queen, it was probably too cute of an interaction. Also, in addition to that, I have been casting Sliver Queen less, and less, so that interaction began occurring a lot less. Unexpectedly Absent has always been a card I enjoyed having, as it can double as both tuck removal and to recast/save a permanent.
Hey, thanks a lot! I think your meta information definitely provides us a lot more insight on different match-ups. I appreciate all of the work you have spent contributing to this thread, Temporal_Archmage! Do you think covering match-ups is something I should do in the OP?
Thanks! I like this thread and discussion. I think your card choises and reasoning behind them are very good and that helps my deck become better as well. As for having match-ups in the OP then yes I think so. But maybe include match-ups that are very common for people to face (Kaalia, Mimeoplasm, Riku and so on) if you have some of those in your meta of course. If this thread gets primer status then it would be good to have some common match-up analisys enlisted. But, its time consuming though.
I like the Intuition idea. The only fear I have with this card is the limited recursion options, though the "piles- idea" you present covers this. Its instant, its cheap, it gets anything. Too bad your opponets chose which card you get, but if you get three win conditions then it doesn't matter. I own this card and I think I should consider playtesting. I have some multiplayer games coming up this week so we will see how it fares.
Did you use to have Snapcaster Mage in the deck? I was thinking with tutors, wraths and counters it would be a good choise. But is it too narrow? Dead early draw?
Yeah, right now I'm actually quite comfortable with the deck after dropping Aura Shards. I think the Intuition pile will have to wait, maybe if the deck ever desires more tutors I could see it working out. I originally had Snapcaster Mage in the deck, way back during its original development, but I started to run Torpor Orb, in addition to already running Humility, which essentially rendered him pointless. If you don't run either of the cards, I would definitely consider Snapcaster Mage. He's honestly one of my favorite cards.
[quote from="Trav_Ragnar »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/536178-sliver-queen-superfriends-control?comment=60"]Yeah, right now I'm actually quite comfortable with the deck after dropping Aura Shards. I think the Intuition pile will have to wait, maybe if the deck ever desires more tutors I could see it working out. I originally had Snapcaster Mage in the deck, way back during its original development, but I started to run Torpor Orb, in addition to already running Humility, which essentially rendered him pointless. If you don't run either of the cards, I would definitely consider Snapcaster Mage. He's honestly one of my favorite cards.
Alright, maybe I'll give him a try.
Yesterday I had a multiplayer game with 3 others. Damia, Sage of Stone, Traximundar and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic. And the deck crushed them! I was very pleased with how the game went because I was able to develop a board position three times and in the end win. Maybe that doesn't sound like an optimal game, but I was being targeted by removal, attacks and a Villainous Wealth that stole my Karn, Liberated and other good stuff. I noticed that the deck was able to recover and find different approaches to winning. After having my board destroyed I was able to find resorces to fight back. It cost me a lot of life because of being attacked and using tutors, Necropotence and so on. I went for the Omniscience plan in the end, but my first attempt failed because my Academy Rector was exiled. I ended up tutoring for Omniscience when I had seven mana and enought stuff to keep the board clean for a few turns. When I hardcast Omniscience it was bounced. But the second time it stuck and I was able to protect it with Privileged Position right away. I then cast Doubling Season, Ral Zarek and Garruk, Primal Hunter and won by taking extra turns and beating with my 6/6 wurms.
The opening hand seemed fine, and I just went into a turn two Nature's Lore into Bitterblossom. At the point I drew a Sensei's Divining Top, playing that after casting Bitterblossom. Following that I played Sorin. The Bitterblossom really helped defend me from the Kaalia player, who cast her turn three after with a Lightning Greaves on board. He Kaalia'd into an Avacyn, Angel of Hope, which immediately was taken via a Gilded Drake by the blue player. I think by turn six or seven I cracked Sorin for his emblem, which served the game quite well. The game went on, not quite remembering the details, but I do remember some key things:
- Stranglehold really held the Mono Blue player down from tutoring with cards such as Tezzeret, the Seeker and casting Time Warp variants, but it also helped me against the Kaalia player. It was quite an all-star that game.
- Sorin's "The Abyss" emblem was also huge. It has made me reconsider making a slot for the card, but its price tag is hefty so it may be a little while before I pick it up.
- Counterspells are a thing.. that can really affect us. Since we kinda durdle, this really helps control players build up an artillery of coutnerspells to deal with our threats/answers. This has made me consider either City of Solitude or Defense Grid, I'm not sure which one.
- First game I got to play with Unexpectedly Absent and it was... 'ok'. I don't know, I suppose it isn't really as absolute as our other removal spells, so I'm unsure about it. I may need to test it more, or maybe it'll be something I drop for City of Solitude or Defense Grid.
TL;DR: I played against a control player and a Kaalia player, and it has made me reconsider running The Abyss after seeing how powerful cracking Sorin, Solemn Visitor's emblem was, and also is making me consider either Defense Grid or City of Solitude for heavy counterspell control. I'm not sure what to drop at the moment, but during the game Unexpectedly Absent did not do so hot.
Yep, so after so deliberating after that game, and talking it over with some of my playgroup buddies, who often makes suggestions towards decklists of mine (as I theirs), I decided to act upon the changes I was considering.
Unexpectedly Absent -> Defense Grid - After testing Unexpectedly Absent, I realized its inflexibility really did not make the cut. I often found myself with it in hand, wanting to deal with something, but realized it would only be temporarily. Defense Grid is probably more of a meta call, but is overall a good card to deal with have Ux control. Our instants are fine at being played at sorcery speed, as most are just removal. Currently testing this over City of Solitude since it is tutorable by Tezzeret, the Seeker and is cheaper, but I'm not brushing off City of Solitude.
Wasteland -> Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - This is more of a change that I realized gradually, but did not hit me until just now. I have very few problems with utility lands, and with Strip Mine already in the deck, I do not think Wasteland warrants a spot. I'm making room for Urborg for a couple reasons. One of the reasons I think Urborg is really nice is that it turns Maze of Ith into a mana producing land, similarly to Chromatic Lantern, but for free. Secondly, during the late game when life starts to gets crucial and you already got your fixing in, fetchlands can become quite the nuisance, and Urborg allows them to tap for mana. Lastly, it does fix your mana, albeit poorly since it only fixes your mana for black. But, another thing to keep in mind is that hitting that Sorin MarkovBBB can be difficult occasionally.
I'm still considering The Abyss, but like I said, it doesn't go over well with my wallet. I'll see if some additional finances come my way if I want to consider testing it, because I know its utility can be really good.
I'm still considering The Abyss, but like I said, it doesn't go over well with my wallet. I'll see if some additional finances come my way if I want to consider testing it, because I know its utility can be really good.
I can offer some insight on The Abyss since I have been running it for some time. In the beginning it got brushed off with a simple "meh" from my playgroup considering its drawbacks (not hitting artifacts and the destroy vs sac effect). But after a while they started removing it as soon as it hit play. I asked and they said they hate it because it destroys all their utility and ramp creatures early on (Oracle of Mul Daya) and their big beaters late game. So it does a good job in all stages of the game. Being so easy to cast its great to get it out turn two with Sol Ring. We all know those times when we get walkers out early and the opponents can just hit them with whatever and they die. Its good to not just have removal in hand that can get countered but also on board. Another upside with this card is that when you play it on your turn it destroys the opponents creatures at the beginning of their turn. It "combos" well with Academy Rector in my deck. Hope that helps. I recommend it
Question for you two! I am almost done building the deck so I have no experience playtesting it right now. I can only evaluate cards based on assumptions.
Have you seen this guy? He seems OK at first but he could be good if life loss is really an issue. He seems redundant with Garruk Apex in that he gains life, makes tokens but has a better emblem. I really don't like the fact that he can not be ult right away with doubling season. Do you think he is good enough to get a spot in the deck?
Question for you two! I am almost done building the deck so I have no experience playtesting it right now. I can only evaluate cards based on assumptions.
Have you seen this guy? He seems OK at first but he could be good if life loss is really an issue. He seems redundant with Garruk Apex in that he gains life, makes tokens but has a better emblem. I really don't like the fact that he can not be ult right away with doubling season. Do you think he is good enough to get a spot in the deck?
I like that he gains life, but at five mana it's a bit worrisome. The fact that his token flies is really nice, and it is quite a big body. Also, his emblem is good, but it sorta depends on the deck you play. I run zero creatures besides Sliver Queen, which means his emblem will be dead more often than not. When I originally saw him, I was thinking about replacing Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with him, but I keep evaluating him and I'm just not too sure about it. I think there's some planeswalkers that just aren't pulling their weight as much as others in the deck, so I will most likely consider him. Gaining three life a turn is still pretty good.
Let's talk about this one.
She's another one that I am really iffy about. I like ramp, and I like tokens, but at five mana? I'm just not too sure about that. Naturalize is pretty good, but minusing her to do so is sorta 'eh'. Then the ultimate. Sure you gotta make a couple guys before you go off ultimating, unless you Doubling Season into her (which is worse). I run other planeswalkers that their ultimate isn't really that great (Dack Fayden, Jace Beleren, Garruk, Apex Predator) but hers is almost always going to wiff. Let's just say that I am excited to see the red and white planeswalker. I really have high hopes for the red planeswalker, because I want red to have presence in the deck, plus red needs some planeswalker support in Commander.
I have been running a deck close to this and I would suggest testing Chandra, The Firebrand Not only is doubling time warp and friends super good but it is also nice to double up on removal cards like utter end. it also is nice to sometimes kill off a dryad arbor/ birds from time to time. It also is pretty darn good with humility out but what isn't.
I have been running a deck close to this and I would suggest testing Chandra, The Firebrand Not only is doubling time warp and friends super good but it is also nice to double up on removal cards like utter end. it also is nice to sometimes kill off a dryad arbor/ birds from time to time. It also is pretty darn good with humility out but what isn't.
It does seem like a fine thing to consider, maybe the other Chandra? I like the ability to shoot down little guys, but the seems situational. My fear for both of them, but a little less the pyromaster, is that they can often times just be dead. Nothing to shoot down, nothing to copy. And her ultimate is very underwhelming. How has she been in testing?
It is something I'll keep in mind, though, Peelz. I've been contemplating dumping Venser, the Sojourner, and I could very well see a Chandra iteration taking his place. I'm going to wait for the full spoiler to be up for C14 to make changes, but suggestions are always welcome! I appreciate your comments.
The real power for firebrand is the -2 ability, I'd rather have her potentially be just 1 dmg to the face and possibly a bonus turn/extra removol/extra tutor, then have Pyromancer which is potentially just 1 dmg to face/chance to draw into Karn/Nico/5cmc cards when you don't have the mana to cast them and end up losing them forever. Pyromancers ult could also wiff while firebrand will always at least deal 6 dmg to all opponents + kill things like concecrated sphinx.
IMO Pyromaster isn't worth an include over Firebrand
Here is to hoping new red planes walker is better than both though.
The only other one that could potentially make the cut is Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury because of that -2, but it's unlikely. The rest are either too underpowered or too 'build-around-me'.
The only other one that could potentially make the cut is Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury because of that -2, but it's unlikely. The rest are either too underpowered or too 'build-around-me'.
I completely agree. Teferi is practically a shoe in, but like you said, the others are too "build around me" or just underpowered. I like Freyalise, but her ultimate is a completely wiff, and her other abilities are quite underwhelming at five mana. If anything, I'll consider either her or Ob Nixilis.
I think Daretii is playable, Drawing cards is strong and having the option to exchange my sol ring for a chain viel/rings of brighthearth seems good to me.
I think Daretii is playable, Drawing cards is strong and having the option to exchange my sol ring for a chain viel/rings of brighthearth seems good to me.
I think you're probably right on that, too. I suppose he never really is dead because he can at least attempt to loot profitably. Also, like you said, you can just switch around some mana rocks for utility pieces. Although, he's not that abusable and not super goodstuffs, either. I'll definitely have to think, and once the set is spoiled I release a set review and focus heavily on the planeswalkers. But until then, I really want to hear everyone's opinions on the planeswalker. Obviously Nahiri is too build around me, but does work quite nice with Sklamp. I think the other four are all fine, and Teferi, like I said, is just a shoe in.
I think if you're going to start off with a suite of wrath effects, I would start off with the ones that either tuck or exile. For example, I run Merciless Eviction, Hallowed Burial and Austere Command for my wrath effects. Well, also Nevinyrral's Disk. As stated by Temporal_Archmage, tuck effects are really nice since they get around indestructible and also tuck generals. Merciless Eviction is probably one of the best wraths out there, because you have the choice for different modes and it exiles. Then I Austere Command because it has the ability to chose different modes, such as Creatures CMC 4 or greater and artifacts, so that you can at least tailor the spell to take out what you want and leave behind what you don't. I think if you feel that you need that less then expected, I would suggest then running Terminus. Also, the only other "destory" wrath I really like is Supreme Verdict. It works really nice if you are in a creature/control heavy meta, like if you have an Animar, Soul of Elements player or a Jenara, Asura of War player. Another sort of unconventional wrath, if your deck hosts creatures, is Ixidron. He's a really nice sweeper because he kind of acts like one of the tuck spells, at least momentarily.
I love Aura Shards. Its great. But I found that I wanted something that hit permanents (or nonland) permanents rather than just artifacts and enchantments. And something that hit them right of the bat like Vindicate. Thing is that it can be really powerful if you can produce more than one token a turn and just blow out the board of artifacts and enchantments. But it is as you say, it draws hate and gets removed. I decided to take it out. I'm considering Beast Within and Oblation. What are your experiences with these?
Another thing I was contemplating was Bribery. It is of course a staple and very good ect. But the reason why I'm considering is ever since I started to play this deck my opponents have started to run more powerful and harder to remove creatures. I was thinking that if I can steal their biggest threat and use it as a defender of my palneswalkers and put some preasurre on the board. I don't think it fits the theme though and it would be a stand alone card.
Yeah, like I said though, I am unsure on what to replace it with. What I have found is essentially it requires a lot going on for it to work out. I can see it going out, maybe for Vraska the Unseen? That would up the total converted mana cost of the deck, but I think it's something for me to consider. Another option I'm considering is Swords to Plowshares. One of the best CREATURE removal spells in the format, which is needed from time-to-time. Like I said, it's something I'm going to have to deliberate on.
On Beast Within and Oblation: They are great. I consider Beast Within to be a staple, and probably one of the best, if not the best removal spell in the format. Leaving behind a 3/3 is not a very relevant downside, in my opinion. Oblation is quite nice to, and it does its just really nice, but probably a little less better. Although, it is nice because it can just eat up a token for instant speed draw two.
Bribery seems fine, but like you said, it does not fit the theme so well. It it something I've contemplated, but I just don't know if that's what I want to be doing with the deck. It seems like resolving Bribery generally puts a target on your forehead.
Vraska, the Unseen on paper looks like a removal spell for 5 mana, but I was never sad to draw her and she always draws removal, which means my opponents thinks she is troublesome. Swords to Plowshares I have considered as well along with Path to Exile. More than once I have wanted to remove only one threat, like the only flier on board that I can't block. And its easy to leave up one mana. One card I'm considering is Mogis, God of Slaughter. The two life loss is not great in EDH. though. I think the gods are something to consider since they are enchantments and the walkers help them with devotion and the gods help them with indestructible blocking. Keranos, God of Storms is also good I think.
The Gods are definetely something I've thought about. The only one the really appeals to me is probably Keranos, God of Storms, but I don't really see anything I would want to cut for it at the moment. If you happen to test him, let me know. He seems like he would provide some nice card advantage while also being able to pick off pesky commanders like Riku of Two Reflections.
G Omnath, Locust of Mana. Heavy ramp with big creatures, including Eldrazi. This deck is easilly beaten with wrath effects most of the time. Trouble for me if he hits all his ramp to fast. But usually easy to beat.
UGB Damia, Sage of Stone. This deck relies on spells to win and is a little trickier to beat. It also ramps and builds up towards Villainous Wealth and steals my walkers. Other steals too like Volition Reins and counterspells. The trick here is to empty my hand and get as many permanents as I can onto the battlefield since they are safer there despite the fact that they can get stolen. One of the reasons I added counterspells myself.
GURBWScion of the Ur-Dragon. Builds up towards the Dragon and swings. Easy to predict. Uses the dead dragons again with reanimator spells. Fairly easy to best but it sucks to get hit by Nicol Bolas. So I need to keep a removal option open. Many times an instant one to because some reanimator attacks. The deck is slow and usually has one or two creatures out which makes it easy to keep walkers alive.
B Geth, Lord of the Vault. Necropotence all the way. Despite being limited to one color this deck relies heavilly on artifacts and can be fast and deadly. Using a mix of creatures and spells and a mix of discard, mill and beatdown makes it hard to predict what to defend against next. Uses a lot of life so if I get some tokens going I usually don't have to attack many times.
Thats some of the most frequent decks I face. I hope this was useful in some way. Its just to show that the Superfriends deck is not perfect but it isn't a deck that is weak to a specific deck type either. At least as far as I can see.
Also, another card came up in my head when debating what is going to replace Aura Shards: Intuition. Obviously any who has played it knows this cards strengths whenever you can dedicate different three card piles in the deck for it. When looking at my list, here are a few Intuition piles that I came up with:
"Oops I Win" Planeswalkers with Doubling Season Out:
- Jace, the Living Guildpact
- Ral Zarek
- Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Take an Extra Turn:
- Capture of Jingzhou
- Time Warp
- Temporal Manipulation
Wraths:
- Hallowed Burial
- Austere Command
- Merciless Eviction
Removal:
- Vindicate
- Beast Within
- Utter End
Other more generic ones:
- Artifact
- Crucible of Worlds
- Academy Ruins
- Regrowth
- Similar Effect #1
- Similar Effect #2
- Crucible of Worlds
- Strip Mine
- Wasteland
Thanks! I like this thread and discussion. I think your card choises and reasoning behind them are very good and that helps my deck become better as well. As for having match-ups in the OP then yes I think so. But maybe include match-ups that are very common for people to face (Kaalia, Mimeoplasm, Riku and so on) if you have some of those in your meta of course. If this thread gets primer status then it would be good to have some common match-up analisys enlisted. But, its time consuming though.
I like the Intuition idea. The only fear I have with this card is the limited recursion options, though the "piles- idea" you present covers this. Its instant, its cheap, it gets anything. Too bad your opponets chose which card you get, but if you get three win conditions then it doesn't matter. I own this card and I think I should consider playtesting. I have some multiplayer games coming up this week so we will see how it fares.
Did you use to have Snapcaster Mage in the deck? I was thinking with tutors, wraths and counters it would be a good choise. But is it too narrow? Dead early draw?
- Aura Shards
+ Unexpectedly Absent
As cool as it was to gun down people's artifacts and enchantments with Aura Shards and Sliver Queen, it was probably too cute of an interaction. Also, in addition to that, I have been casting Sliver Queen less, and less, so that interaction began occurring a lot less. Unexpectedly Absent has always been a card I enjoyed having, as it can double as both tuck removal and to recast/save a permanent.
Yeah, right now I'm actually quite comfortable with the deck after dropping Aura Shards. I think the Intuition pile will have to wait, maybe if the deck ever desires more tutors I could see it working out. I originally had Snapcaster Mage in the deck, way back during its original development, but I started to run Torpor Orb, in addition to already running Humility, which essentially rendered him pointless. If you don't run either of the cards, I would definitely consider Snapcaster Mage. He's honestly one of my favorite cards.
Alright, maybe I'll give him a try.
Yesterday I had a multiplayer game with 3 others. Damia, Sage of Stone, Traximundar and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic. And the deck crushed them! I was very pleased with how the game went because I was able to develop a board position three times and in the end win. Maybe that doesn't sound like an optimal game, but I was being targeted by removal, attacks and a Villainous Wealth that stole my Karn, Liberated and other good stuff. I noticed that the deck was able to recover and find different approaches to winning. After having my board destroyed I was able to find resorces to fight back. It cost me a lot of life because of being attacked and using tutors, Necropotence and so on. I went for the Omniscience plan in the end, but my first attempt failed because my Academy Rector was exiled. I ended up tutoring for Omniscience when I had seven mana and enought stuff to keep the board clean for a few turns. When I hardcast Omniscience it was bounced. But the second time it stuck and I was able to protect it with Privileged Position right away. I then cast Doubling Season, Ral Zarek and Garruk, Primal Hunter and won by taking extra turns and beating with my 6/6 wurms.
GAME REPORT:
Played against a Kaalia of the Vast aggro deck and a Barrin, Master Wizard Mono-U Control
Opening Hand after partial mulligan: Nature's Lore, Savannah, Watery Grave, Bitteblossom, Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Chaos Warp, Tundra
The opening hand seemed fine, and I just went into a turn two Nature's Lore into Bitterblossom. At the point I drew a Sensei's Divining Top, playing that after casting Bitterblossom. Following that I played Sorin. The Bitterblossom really helped defend me from the Kaalia player, who cast her turn three after with a Lightning Greaves on board. He Kaalia'd into an Avacyn, Angel of Hope, which immediately was taken via a Gilded Drake by the blue player. I think by turn six or seven I cracked Sorin for his emblem, which served the game quite well. The game went on, not quite remembering the details, but I do remember some key things:
- Stranglehold really held the Mono Blue player down from tutoring with cards such as Tezzeret, the Seeker and casting Time Warp variants, but it also helped me against the Kaalia player. It was quite an all-star that game.
- Sorin's "The Abyss" emblem was also huge. It has made me reconsider making a slot for the card, but its price tag is hefty so it may be a little while before I pick it up.
- Counterspells are a thing.. that can really affect us. Since we kinda durdle, this really helps control players build up an artillery of coutnerspells to deal with our threats/answers. This has made me consider either City of Solitude or Defense Grid, I'm not sure which one.
- First game I got to play with Unexpectedly Absent and it was... 'ok'. I don't know, I suppose it isn't really as absolute as our other removal spells, so I'm unsure about it. I may need to test it more, or maybe it'll be something I drop for City of Solitude or Defense Grid.
TL;DR: I played against a control player and a Kaalia player, and it has made me reconsider running The Abyss after seeing how powerful cracking Sorin, Solemn Visitor's emblem was, and also is making me consider either Defense Grid or City of Solitude for heavy counterspell control. I'm not sure what to drop at the moment, but during the game Unexpectedly Absent did not do so hot.
Unexpectedly Absent -> Defense Grid - After testing Unexpectedly Absent, I realized its inflexibility really did not make the cut. I often found myself with it in hand, wanting to deal with something, but realized it would only be temporarily. Defense Grid is probably more of a meta call, but is overall a good card to deal with have Ux control. Our instants are fine at being played at sorcery speed, as most are just removal. Currently testing this over City of Solitude since it is tutorable by Tezzeret, the Seeker and is cheaper, but I'm not brushing off City of Solitude.
Wasteland -> Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - This is more of a change that I realized gradually, but did not hit me until just now. I have very few problems with utility lands, and with Strip Mine already in the deck, I do not think Wasteland warrants a spot. I'm making room for Urborg for a couple reasons. One of the reasons I think Urborg is really nice is that it turns Maze of Ith into a mana producing land, similarly to Chromatic Lantern, but for free. Secondly, during the late game when life starts to gets crucial and you already got your fixing in, fetchlands can become quite the nuisance, and Urborg allows them to tap for mana. Lastly, it does fix your mana, albeit poorly since it only fixes your mana for black. But, another thing to keep in mind is that hitting that Sorin Markov BBB can be difficult occasionally.
I'm still considering The Abyss, but like I said, it doesn't go over well with my wallet. I'll see if some additional finances come my way if I want to consider testing it, because I know its utility can be really good.
I can offer some insight on The Abyss since I have been running it for some time. In the beginning it got brushed off with a simple "meh" from my playgroup considering its drawbacks (not hitting artifacts and the destroy vs sac effect). But after a while they started removing it as soon as it hit play. I asked and they said they hate it because it destroys all their utility and ramp creatures early on (Oracle of Mul Daya) and their big beaters late game. So it does a good job in all stages of the game. Being so easy to cast its great to get it out turn two with Sol Ring. We all know those times when we get walkers out early and the opponents can just hit them with whatever and they die. Its good to not just have removal in hand that can get countered but also on board. Another upside with this card is that when you play it on your turn it destroys the opponents creatures at the beginning of their turn. It "combos" well with Academy Rector in my deck. Hope that helps. I recommend it
Have you seen this guy? He seems OK at first but he could be good if life loss is really an issue. He seems redundant with Garruk Apex in that he gains life, makes tokens but has a better emblem. I really don't like the fact that he can not be ult right away with doubling season. Do you think he is good enough to get a spot in the deck?
I like that he gains life, but at five mana it's a bit worrisome. The fact that his token flies is really nice, and it is quite a big body. Also, his emblem is good, but it sorta depends on the deck you play. I run zero creatures besides Sliver Queen, which means his emblem will be dead more often than not. When I originally saw him, I was thinking about replacing Sorin, Lord of Innistrad with him, but I keep evaluating him and I'm just not too sure about it. I think there's some planeswalkers that just aren't pulling their weight as much as others in the deck, so I will most likely consider him. Gaining three life a turn is still pretty good.
Let's talk about this one.
She's another one that I am really iffy about. I like ramp, and I like tokens, but at five mana? I'm just not too sure about that. Naturalize is pretty good, but minusing her to do so is sorta 'eh'. Then the ultimate. Sure you gotta make a couple guys before you go off ultimating, unless you Doubling Season into her (which is worse). I run other planeswalkers that their ultimate isn't really that great (Dack Fayden, Jace Beleren, Garruk, Apex Predator) but hers is almost always going to wiff. Let's just say that I am excited to see the red and white planeswalker. I really have high hopes for the red planeswalker, because I want red to have presence in the deck, plus red needs some planeswalker support in Commander.
It does seem like a fine thing to consider, maybe the other Chandra? I like the ability to shoot down little guys, but the seems situational. My fear for both of them, but a little less the pyromaster, is that they can often times just be dead. Nothing to shoot down, nothing to copy. And her ultimate is very underwhelming. How has she been in testing?
IMO Pyromaster isn't worth an include over Firebrand
Here is to hoping new red planes walker is better than both though.
For 5CPWC, I believe Teferi, Temporal Archmage is the only auto-include.
The only other one that could potentially make the cut is Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury because of that -2, but it's unlikely. The rest are either too underpowered or too 'build-around-me'.
I completely agree. Teferi is practically a shoe in, but like you said, the others are too "build around me" or just underpowered. I like Freyalise, but her ultimate is a completely wiff, and her other abilities are quite underwhelming at five mana. If anything, I'll consider either her or Ob Nixilis.
I think you're probably right on that, too. I suppose he never really is dead because he can at least attempt to loot profitably. Also, like you said, you can just switch around some mana rocks for utility pieces. Although, he's not that abusable and not super goodstuffs, either. I'll definitely have to think, and once the set is spoiled I release a set review and focus heavily on the planeswalkers. But until then, I really want to hear everyone's opinions on the planeswalker. Obviously Nahiri is too build around me, but does work quite nice with Sklamp. I think the other four are all fine, and Teferi, like I said, is just a shoe in.