Just lost a game to UR artifact ramp and draw7's where they got a turn 1 Sol Ring into a turn 2 Gilded Lotus, Metamorph, Wheel of Fortune. 8 for 9.
9 for 10. Blew out Mayael and Athreos in a game of "archenemy" where I had 3 lands on turn 10. Reveillark + Body Double was necessary for victory, but I had to assemble it off Fauna Shaman. I never had the opportunity to just combo out. Eventually, Daring Thief started turning Fyndhorn Elves into Avacyns and Blazing Archons and things fell together pretty quickly after that.
Memory Lapse is fine.
How about Delay? It's been a very effective counterspell for me.
Or Remand for that extra draw?
I've taken another look at your advice earlier and have started incorporating elements of your build to my own. I'm impressed with what you're already achieved with the current build, and how some individual cards or synergies just take over a multilayer game. I may dodge some options here and there, since I still want to play a less aggressive role for some games/situations, but overall I think I get what and where the deck already is.
Mindbreak Trap strips combo of its most abusive turns and plays. I'm running it over things that cost mana because Derevi really needs to be able to tap out in the early turns to apply pressure. That said, 4 mana is way too much if your meta already has a social ban on combo. It does a bunch of splash damage to Maelstrom Wanderer, which is cute too.
a. Norn vs Vigor vs Brigid is a debate. I think that if you can find/cast it before someone takes you out of the game with Bribery you were already going to win. It's a great card for you, but it's MUCH better against you. Any Control Magic or Bribery effect on it is a huge problem.
b. What does STP actually do you for? What critter is so scary that you have to remove it whenever someone plays it? Elesh Norn? Inferno Titan? They does most of their damage just by resolving. You'd almost always rather have Helm of Possession or Sower of Temptation or the like. You never want to trade 1 for 1 unless you're countering something like Damnation or an infinite combo.
c. In theory you've made yourself Wrath-proof and you most likely have infinite mana and a board while your opponents have no mana and no board. The only I'm sure you left off is Opposition so no additional critters are required to keep your opponents completely tapped down.
Why no extra turns like Time Warp? Do they really not do enough? I would think that Derevi, Empyrial Tactician would allow you get get very good value off of an extra attack step. Especially since this is Bant, you can pretty easily chain them if you want to.
It's not so much that it doesn't do enough as that it's win-more. Ie. You have a developed board, you can spend more than 5 mana that turn, and nobody can stop the Time Warp. More than that, it's only a single turn where Winter Orb and the like arguably do the same thing turn after turn.
And record is now 16 wins in 18 games. Considering Vigor -> Yisan.
Everyone keeps talking about how they've stopped playing this deck, but I'm at 17 wins in 19 games now. It's actually performing better than Maelstrom despite the archenemy aspect. There are a ton of individual cards and two-card interactions that can quickly take over a game if unchecked. Too many to fail to find a hole when one's available.
Folks who've stopped playing this, I strongly urge you to try the current list.
I'll start posting all of the matches there from now on. This deck isn't a great way to make friends, but wow does it win games.
23 for 26. Got archenemied despite another player starting on Sol Ring and proceeding to combo out. And Yisan is absolutely obscene. Vigor cut for Yisan.
It seems much worse than Opposition. Not every deck needs to attack with critters to win, but most decks would like their lands to be untapped in their main phase.
It seems very strong in other decks. Copying Time Warp or Demonic Tutor is an extremely strong effect. What might we copy here? Eladamri's Call and Green Sun's Zenith. Narset is a better card than Chandra, the Firebrand, but we just don't have many uses for conditional draw.
It's an interesting perspective, but some of the cards seem like particularly poor choices. Elesh Norn seems especially awful given that you simply lose if it's stolen or bribed. I don't think that person tested their list with particular care since staples like Opposition are missing. Similarly, Edric is a huge risk since it enables other players to attack a soft target and draw enough cards to control the board or combo out.
I wouldn't call Opposition a staple but I do agree with you about that Derevi Primer being lacking. The game plan is all in trying to impose a soft lock on opponents as early as possible. This doesn't work against competitive tables. You need to run some answers and control to stop bad things from happening: T1 Blood Moon GG, T2 Contamination GG, T2 Bribery into your Elesh Norn GG, T2 animated Jin-Gitaxias GG, or Derevi in play Terminus GG. On a competitive table opponents are trying to disrupt/lock you out. You must run some answers and have a backup plan for a longer game. I tried a similar all-in strategy with combo and it was simply too susceptible to disruption
well this is a top tier list and is extreamly competitive it plans to win turn 2-3 but if you have ever played competitive edh witch i don't think you have, counterspells are horrible who plays them? And i doubt you read it all or the mechanic behind the deck.
But please if you could link the best primer you have seen I would be happy to look it over.
it is made to be competitive in the multi player format who has bribery and targets derevi when their is a prosh or a mimeoplasim right next to you?
well this is a top tier list and is extreamly competitive it plans to win turn 2-3
Any debating position you had was lost when you called casting a lock piece a "turn 2 kill." This isn't Hermit Druid and absolutely cannot combo out on turn 2 under any circumstance.
well this is a top tier list and is extreamly competitive it plans to win turn 2-3 but if you have ever played competitive edh witch i don't think you have, counterspells are horrible who plays them? And i doubt you read it all or the mechanic behind the deck.
But please if you could link the best primer you have seen I would be happy to look it over.
it is made to be competitive in the multi player format who has bribery and targets derevi when their is a prosh or a mimeoplasim right next to you?
think politics
He is trolling right ? ...or does he really believe this ?
I read through most of the primer. I also examined the list card by card. It has a very coherent game plan. It'll lock down 95% of the opponents it sits across. However this doesn't mean it is without weaknesses or vulnerabilities
9 for 10. Blew out Mayael and Athreos in a game of "archenemy" where I had 3 lands on turn 10. Reveillark + Body Double was necessary for victory, but I had to assemble it off Fauna Shaman. I never had the opportunity to just combo out. Eventually, Daring Thief started turning Fyndhorn Elves into Avacyns and Blazing Archons and things fell together pretty quickly after that.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Yavimaya Hollow -> Vigor/Brigid
Wargate -> Stonybrook Schoolmaster
Llanowar Elves -> Mindbreak Trap/Memory Lapse/Negate
With all of the excuses this deck presently runs to tap wizards, Stonybrook has become an all-star.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
How about Delay? It's been a very effective counterspell for me.
Or Remand for that extra draw?
I've taken another look at your advice earlier and have started incorporating elements of your build to my own. I'm impressed with what you're already achieved with the current build, and how some individual cards or synergies just take over a multilayer game. I may dodge some options here and there, since I still want to play a less aggressive role for some games/situations, but overall I think I get what and where the deck already is.
Some concerns:
a. I'd still want Elesh Norn inside.
b. I feel that the deck, on paper, lacks instant speed removal spells, but I hope I'm wrong when I start playtesting it (NO SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES?)
c. After going infinite via reveillark/mirror entity/body double, here's my percieved win cons, let me know me if I miss any by chance:
c1. Surgespanner Bounce
c2. Vernser Bounce
c3. Derevi Tap out + infi mana
c4. Eternal Witness for value (or + Sun Titan and Strip Mine)
c5. Azami for value
c6. Luminarch Ascension for infi tokens
It may take some time though since I've yet to acquire some of the cards.
Legacy:
UWR Miracles
BUG Shardless Sultai
EDH:
GWUDerevi, Master of SynergyUWG
RWBAlesha, Legacies and RelicsBWR
0R0Daretti, More than Meets the Eye0R0
WGSelvala, Elf StaxGW
RUGRiku of Infinite InvocationsGUR
a. Norn vs Vigor vs Brigid is a debate. I think that if you can find/cast it before someone takes you out of the game with Bribery you were already going to win. It's a great card for you, but it's MUCH better against you. Any Control Magic or Bribery effect on it is a huge problem.
b. What does STP actually do you for? What critter is so scary that you have to remove it whenever someone plays it? Elesh Norn? Inferno Titan? They does most of their damage just by resolving. You'd almost always rather have Helm of Possession or Sower of Temptation or the like. You never want to trade 1 for 1 unless you're countering something like Damnation or an infinite combo.
c. In theory you've made yourself Wrath-proof and you most likely have infinite mana and a board while your opponents have no mana and no board. The only I'm sure you left off is Opposition so no additional critters are required to keep your opponents completely tapped down.
Oh, and the record is now 12 for 14.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
And record is now 16 wins in 18 games. Considering Vigor -> Yisan.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Folks who've stopped playing this, I strongly urge you to try the current list.
Update: 19 for 21.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Reconnaissance got a new oracle update. Now works like it used to.
Can swing in for attack, deal damage, then untap everything again.
...Can't post links yet...was on the update on July 17
And now 22 for 24.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I'll start posting all of the matches there from now on. This deck isn't a great way to make friends, but wow does it win games.
23 for 26. Got archenemied despite another player starting on Sol Ring and proceeding to combo out. And Yisan is absolutely obscene. Vigor cut for Yisan.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
One
Two
Anyone up for testing out the "real" metagame? Sit this down with Doomsday, Hermit Druid, and something windmill slam-y.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
It seems very strong in other decks. Copying Time Warp or Demonic Tutor is an extremely strong effect. What might we copy here? Eladamri's Call and Green Sun's Zenith. Narset is a better card than Chandra, the Firebrand, but we just don't have many uses for conditional draw.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
not my list or anything just thought it would help
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
But please if you could link the best primer you have seen I would be happy to look it over.
it is made to be competitive in the multi player format who has bribery and targets derevi when their is a prosh or a mimeoplasim right next to you?
think politics
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin
Any debating position you had was lost when you called casting a lock piece a "turn 2 kill." This isn't Hermit Druid and absolutely cannot combo out on turn 2 under any circumstance.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
He is trolling right ? ...or does he really believe this ?
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I am done with this discussion
[center][color=Blue]
Edric Spy and die
Azami the lady of the draw
Naya Zoo
Past decks
Orloro
sharuum the hegemond
Mono black control
splinter twin