I just got a hold of a Carpet of Flowers for my Maelstrom deck and it has been awesome. In my meta it is always 2-3 mana by turn 5. It seems like a solid include, but vs Sol Ring that's a tough call.
I have also been thinking about Intuition in Derevi, ideas?
Well, I think in a one or the other scenario you take carpet. I have the slots that I can probably play both.
Side note: a bunch of my friends and my brother went to GP Cincinnati and got promo Batterskulls. I was going to use the one my brother got for this deck, but he has not idea where it is. How the f*** do you lose track of a GP promo Batterskull?!?
I agree that Carpet > Sol Ring. It's better on many levels, particularly since it makes colored mana under Orb/Stasis. If you'd cut something else for it, what?
As to Intuition, maybe. I don't know that we have enough scare factor to make 3rd best good enough when we've paid 3 mana to get it. Isn't there always a situationally better tutor? Even Knowledge Exploition probably has enough Rogues to support it.
Obscene is an understatement. Card advantage engine that can pile +1/+1 counters onto our critters. Ignore the ultimate ability since one of the two +1's will almost always be better. Not immediately sure what gets cut, only that this goes in.
I haven't been a fan of Tez if only because he interacts so poorly with my decision to run Energy Flux and Kataki. I understand that snagging Birthing Pod and Winter Orb is very strong, but without artifact lands and the like he doesn't really help once Orb is out. He's actually comparable to Fabricate in that sense.
Actually, he looks good in the Fabricate comparison. Fabricate -> Tez.
Not sure how much I like this list. Derevi has a tendency to get pounced, perhaps even irrationally. Even with a *****ty board, you can often come out of nowhere to win by windmill slamming a Luminarch Ascension, Stasis, or Winter Orb. As such, people tend to waste removal on keeping you from being able to do that even when you're not much of a threat. I wish Derevi presented a more consistent threat level.
I am finding the same problem. In an average game, they ignore the Roon combo player, and go after me (the only one who can stop the Roon combo player). The orbs create irrational hate towards Derevi for only a marginal gain. I am starting to wonder if just running straight out agro might be better than playing prison.
.. or maybe its time to call it quits, I have been trying to make this work for 6 months now, and still, it wins randomly, but mostly loses. My Wort deck and Wanderer deck always either beat faces in, or just wins, I rarely get shut out first with those.
I am finding the same problem. In an average game, they ignore the Roon combo player, and go after me (the only one who can stop the Roon combo player).
Exactly the problem I have. Zur is comboing out? Let's Wasteland Derevi's Tropical Island. This hobbles me too? I complain about mana screw for the rest of the game? Derevi deserved it because he's broken.
It's like...just save a removal spell for the Orb effect and don't tap out when everyone is tapped out. Dgeez.
A 25% win rate on a 4-man table is very respectable. Trancer Derevi isn't supposed to beat face. The optimal Derevi list has lightning fast starts it can leverage into wins. Not by beating face, but by comboing out.
Swift, I'm about 40% with my Derevi build for comparison. My complaint is that something like half of those losses come about when I'm not a threat and the table is pouncing me anyways. Maelstrom Wanderer and Krenko can play through that via insane threat density, but Derevi can't because it needs multiple pieces to fit together.
Which is why you must choose your combo pieces carefully. They've got to be reasonably good on a dry board. The best pieces are acceleration because they are also good early game.
Trancer the orbs, Hokori, and stasis are excellent means of resource denial/disruption against multiple opponents. Taking them out removes one of our most effective threats/means to slow down opponents with larger boards. Lots of game an opponent has tapped out after a particularly long turn. I play Orb/Hokori. They will have much shorter turns. It's a way to neutralize opponents with a better board while we try and play catch up or get to our win condition.
I've made rather good experience with Windborn Muse and still tend to maybe increase the count by Propaganda / Ghostly Prison for lategame plans. I don't know, it cuts the speed, but I've seen them discouraging players to attack me and stops other swarm strategies...
I'm not sure about it...
Those don't win you the game, nor do they stop others from winning, they just waste card advantage to keep you alive a few more turns if you are losing.
Stoic Angel is actually pretty cute. The problem is that when you look at other plausible inclusions...say Godsend and Ajani, Mentor...does it really stack up?
Those don't win you the game, nor do they stop others from winning, they just waste card advantage to keep you alive a few more turns if you are losing.
I disagree. Think about the damage this would do to Coupon's Maelstrom deck. Anything that taps multiple critters for mana or damage every turn and can't give them vigilance has issues with this. You'd prefer a blanket "creatures don't untap" though.
Also, I'm finding that my biggest mistake with this deck is going for the control role via Rising Waters or the like when I should just be trying to combo out with Survival. When I lose a game, 20% of the time it's because I tutored a Stasis effect over Survival.
For changes:
Tez -> Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Cyclonic Rift -> Godsend
Thoughts? Godsend seems extremely strong as a way to force through critters and the "can't" ability might be somewhat relevant given the redundancy of the format. Not sure how Godsend works with Generals, but I think the replacement effect prevents it from stopping them from being replayed?
Spawnwrithe is amazing because of the possibility for exponential growth. He just takes over when unanswered. Qasali does the exact opposite of what we want. It doesn't attack well in swarms and it only provides parity, not incremental advantage.
Daring Thief. It's the late game, would you rather have Fyndhorn Elves or the biggest fatty on the table? You get to make a switch at least once a turn. I'm declaring this a new staple. Voidmage Prodigy drew disproportionate hate and leaving UU up never made much sense.
I miss early land drops way too often and Mana Confluence is great. Bribery tends to be too little too late and seldom if ever fits into our strategy. If Ajani isn't working out, Bribery will take its place.
The more I stare at this list, the less I'm sure that Godsend has a place. It's just one more permanent that will draw way more hate than it deserves while somebody else combos out. Honestly, I'm starting to feel like this is a troll deck. Every card seems to scream at people, "OMG KILL IT WITH FYRE!" even as somebody resolves their Genesis Wave with X=14. Now if I could have 20 more copies of Gaddock Teeg...
Qasali Pridemage -> Daring Thief
Voidmage Prodigy -> Spawnwrithe
Bribery -> Mana Confluence
Tezzeret the Seeker -> Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Cyclonic Rift -> Godsend
Unfortunate discovery this morning: Reconnaissance is getting an oracle update.0: Remove target attacking creature you control from combat and untap it. Activate this ability only before the combat damage step.
I have been playing a similar combo-stasis Derevi deck, and honestly I haven't seen any in this thread that pair up to maximum potential in my opinion. I strongly disagree with the last analysis of void mage prodigy, as he creates a game lock, in combo with prophet or seedborn. you just lock the game down. here is my take, and it needs work in the land base but is fine for budget lands, and usually pulls off one of the plethora of board locks by turn 3-5.
Voidmage is never my first choice, but the hard counter was nice. It's not even so much the quadruple U, it's that you're already winning if you have six each turn to pay for it.
I've updated the original post to reflect a massive number of updates. Daring Thief and Surgespanner have been extremely strong in testing as a way of dodging huge critters. Adding Opposition and Nature's Will was overdue. Stasis came out because it was simply never my first choice. It's a very fragile combo because you suddenly rely on vigilance and/or double strike instead of utility creatures. So you're running out a bad creature or support card to get roughly the same effect Winter Orb effects already give you.
I cut Edric for being win-more. Tezzeret went back in to reflect the fact that one of Winter Orb, Birthing Pod, or Bident will usually win you the game. Null Rod, Stony Silence, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence could reasonably go in, too. We have some issues with swarms. Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile is ridiculously strong against swarms and comes with the added bonus making it very hard to profitably block our swarm.
The win rate in three player games on Cockatrice since making these changes is 8 wins in 8 matches.
One minor change: Brigid -> Sol Ring. So many 4 cmc cards that need 2 colorless that adding it back in was justified. Nature's Will has been an all-star as has Opposition.
I have also been thinking about Intuition in Derevi, ideas?
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Side note: a bunch of my friends and my brother went to GP Cincinnati and got promo Batterskulls. I was going to use the one my brother got for this deck, but he has not idea where it is. How the f*** do you lose track of a GP promo Batterskull?!?
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I'd say...carelessness?
I agree that Carpet > Sol Ring. It's better on many levels, particularly since it makes colored mana under Orb/Stasis. If you'd cut something else for it, what?
As to Intuition, maybe. I don't know that we have enough scare factor to make 3rd best good enough when we've paid 3 mana to get it. Isn't there always a situationally better tutor? Even Knowledge Exploition probably has enough Rogues to support it.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Obscene is an understatement. Card advantage engine that can pile +1/+1 counters onto our critters. Ignore the ultimate ability since one of the two +1's will almost always be better. Not immediately sure what gets cut, only that this goes in.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Actually, he looks good in the Fabricate comparison. Fabricate -> Tez.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
You're:
+1 Rhystic Study
+1 Heliod
+1 GAA4
+1 Worldly Tutor
+1 Swan Song
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Beast Within
+1 Windborn
+1 Sisay
+1 Chromatic Lantern
+1 Mirran Crusader
-1 BRIBERY
-1 MANA CRYPT
-1 Carpet of Flowers
-1 Muddle the Mixture
-1 GSZ
-1 Coastal Piracy
-1 Thalia
-1 Patron Wizard
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Serra Ascendant
Strongest inclusion from your list is Rhystic Study, worst is probably Heliod. Worst cut is Mana Crypt, best cut is Qasali Pridemage.
Should I keep Pridemage in over Rhystic...probably not. Thoughts?
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
EDIT: Oh wow I just noticed something... godsend or gods end ?
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Going by this comparison it seems like your list in the original post is out of date...???
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Not sure how much I like this list. Derevi has a tendency to get pounced, perhaps even irrationally. Even with a *****ty board, you can often come out of nowhere to win by windmill slamming a Luminarch Ascension, Stasis, or Winter Orb. As such, people tend to waste removal on keeping you from being able to do that even when you're not much of a threat. I wish Derevi presented a more consistent threat level.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
.. or maybe its time to call it quits, I have been trying to make this work for 6 months now, and still, it wins randomly, but mostly loses. My Wort deck and Wanderer deck always either beat faces in, or just wins, I rarely get shut out first with those.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Exactly the problem I have. Zur is comboing out? Let's Wasteland Derevi's Tropical Island. This hobbles me too? I complain about mana screw for the rest of the game? Derevi deserved it because he's broken.
It's like...just save a removal spell for the Orb effect and don't tap out when everyone is tapped out. Dgeez.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Trancer the orbs, Hokori, and stasis are excellent means of resource denial/disruption against multiple opponents. Taking them out removes one of our most effective threats/means to slow down opponents with larger boards. Lots of game an opponent has tapped out after a particularly long turn. I play Orb/Hokori. They will have much shorter turns. It's a way to neutralize opponents with a better board while we try and play catch up or get to our win condition.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Those don't win you the game, nor do they stop others from winning, they just waste card advantage to keep you alive a few more turns if you are losing.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I'm thinking both Godsend and Ajani are in.
I disagree. Think about the damage this would do to Coupon's Maelstrom deck. Anything that taps multiple critters for mana or damage every turn and can't give them vigilance has issues with this. You'd prefer a blanket "creatures don't untap" though.
Also, I'm finding that my biggest mistake with this deck is going for the control role via Rising Waters or the like when I should just be trying to combo out with Survival. When I lose a game, 20% of the time it's because I tutored a Stasis effect over Survival.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Tez -> Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Cyclonic Rift -> Godsend
Thoughts? Godsend seems extremely strong as a way to force through critters and the "can't" ability might be somewhat relevant given the redundancy of the format. Not sure how Godsend works with Generals, but I think the replacement effect prevents it from stopping them from being replayed?
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Spawnwrithe is amazing because of the possibility for exponential growth. He just takes over when unanswered. Qasali does the exact opposite of what we want. It doesn't attack well in swarms and it only provides parity, not incremental advantage.
Daring Thief. It's the late game, would you rather have Fyndhorn Elves or the biggest fatty on the table? You get to make a switch at least once a turn. I'm declaring this a new staple. Voidmage Prodigy drew disproportionate hate and leaving UU up never made much sense.
I miss early land drops way too often and Mana Confluence is great. Bribery tends to be too little too late and seldom if ever fits into our strategy. If Ajani isn't working out, Bribery will take its place.
The more I stare at this list, the less I'm sure that Godsend has a place. It's just one more permanent that will draw way more hate than it deserves while somebody else combos out. Honestly, I'm starting to feel like this is a troll deck. Every card seems to scream at people, "OMG KILL IT WITH FYRE!" even as somebody resolves their Genesis Wave with X=14. Now if I could have 20 more copies of Gaddock Teeg...
Qasali Pridemage -> Daring Thief
Voidmage Prodigy -> Spawnwrithe
Bribery -> Mana Confluence
Tezzeret the Seeker -> Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Cyclonic Rift -> Godsend
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I've updated the original post to reflect a massive number of updates. Daring Thief and Surgespanner have been extremely strong in testing as a way of dodging huge critters. Adding Opposition and Nature's Will was overdue. Stasis came out because it was simply never my first choice. It's a very fragile combo because you suddenly rely on vigilance and/or double strike instead of utility creatures. So you're running out a bad creature or support card to get roughly the same effect Winter Orb effects already give you.
I cut Edric for being win-more. Tezzeret went back in to reflect the fact that one of Winter Orb, Birthing Pod, or Bident will usually win you the game. Null Rod, Stony Silence, or Linvala, Keeper of Silence could reasonably go in, too. We have some issues with swarms. Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile is ridiculously strong against swarms and comes with the added bonus making it very hard to profitably block our swarm.
The win rate in three player games on Cockatrice since making these changes is 8 wins in 8 matches.
One minor change: Brigid -> Sol Ring. So many 4 cmc cards that need 2 colorless that adding it back in was justified. Nature's Will has been an all-star as has Opposition.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420