DEN makes some cards like Venser and Zealous markedly better. It's never awful, but there's usually a better cascade unless you're trying to win. As to lucking into a combo...he combos with almost every critter I run.
Edit to avoid double post:
Highlighting some differences that haven't been well-discussed... Kessig Wolf Run. This card matters. You have a ramp deck and this is a great sink for all of that extra mana. Remember that you can even pump an opponent's creature to screw up combat. Removal on Wanderer is also generally a good thing because it enables us to recast it..
Tolaria West. Transmutes into utility lands, Ancient Tomb, and Mana Crypt. We run it mostly because it transmutes into Mana Crypt and therefore counts as a three mana ramp spell that gives two mana back immediately.
Cavern of Souls. Tuck is a thing and it's definitely our biggest weakness. This addresses that pretty painlessly.
Sylvan Library. Library manipulation and draw engine in one for a measly two-mana investment. Is that time that could have been spent ramping? Sure. But I'd rather ramp into known threats later than a likely fizzle earlier.
Hellkite Tyrant. Memnarch and Sharuum are known and likely contenders for tier 1 competitive generals. This gives them both fits and can even prompt a scoop.
Cyclonic Rift. Yes, it's a dead cascade, but wiping the board is insanely good. Friends who play very competitively consider this the best blue card in EDH.
Insurrection. The cascade mechanic skips right over this, preventing timing issues. This card usually prompts people to scoop. It's obscenely good and probably the best red card in EDH. We ramp and can easily support the CMC, so there's no reason not to run this.
Overgrowth. In theory, Overgrowth on a basic meets our highest test for ramp: two mana back immediately for 3 mana invested. It also sets us up to be two-for-one-ed. Can those who play it comment on how often that happens in testing?
Tier 1 strategies we fail to address:
Graveyard recursion ala Hermit Druid and/or Mimeoplasm
-We have only sparing countermagic/removal.
Animar swarm
-Mostly clone effects and Insurrection.
Quick response: those are all very good card suggestions, all of which I have put thought into after seeing them on your list, and all of which deserve to be addressed. Many if not all of them will be added at least for the purpose of testing due to your recommendation. I will have a more in-depth response after work, as well as my history with Overgrowth.
I also want to add Thada Adel to tier 1 strategies that really hurt us (and that Hellkite Tyrant helps us to address). Good stuff, good post. I'll also get back to you on what you posted on your thread, but I am allowed to double-post on this one because it's mine, so I can afford a place-holder comment on this thread. Thanks!
Few things-
First: you don't seem to like infinite combos, which is odd considering the choice of general...
Second: Much of your ramp could be upgraded I think, though it would take me a bit to compile a list of options.
Third: You may, since you run more ramp than other decks of Maelstrom, need more card draw, as often, it seems, you will run into a lot of mana and nothing to do with it.
Finally, and MOST IMPORTANT: I find your lack of Kiki-Jiki disturbing.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RUGMaelstrom WanderRUG < That's a link
Please look at and comment on the above! Looking for any advice and thoughts!
Infinite combos come with a social cost. It's one thing to Rite of Replication Purphoros (40 to each player). It's another to do infinite damage to each player. In practice they have the same effect, but some people dislike the idea of "infinite." That's why I like DEN/Kiki with Sylvan Primordial as an early TnN finisher over DEN-Palinchron. Also, you wreck the board state instead of just wanking in a corner before walking away.
Upgrading ramp isn't straightforward, but pointing out anything we've overlooked would be appreciated. Between the two of us, I'm fairly confident that we exhaust the best options.
Kiki-Jiki is a backup DEN. He's not particularly resilient and does little in a vacuum where DEN can usually at least pair with Maelstrom to protect both. He's very very good, but it's not clear that he outclasses DEN.
Few things-
First: you don't seem to like infinite combos, which is odd considering the choice of general...
Second: Much of your ramp could be upgraded I think, though it would take me a bit to compile a list of options.
Third: You may, since you run more ramp than other decks of Maelstrom, need more card draw, as often, it seems, you will run into a lot of mana and nothing to do with it.
Finally, and MOST IMPORTANT: I find your lack of Kiki-Jiki disturbing.
I am absolutely all ears when it comes to ramp; in my opinion this is the most important part of making this deck competitive.
As for infinite combos, I feel as if just winning the game is just as good as "going infinite". I think a lot of people get a little too hot and bothered by the word "infinite", and play cards that are otherwise poor because they allow them to go infinite. I am perfectly happy just winning the game. Now, I do have an unreasonable dislike of DEN, and I am going to have to get over it. That guy is going in, and clearly belongs, I think.
Kiki played his way out of my list. He is a really bad cascade in almost every early scenario (in my list; I don't run a lot of attractive etb targets) and is dreadful to hardcast with :symr::symr::symr: in his casting cost. I think perhaps it is a simple issue of my particular build vs. others, because I have heard plenty of people vouch for Kiki.
Highlighting some differences that haven't been well-discussed... Kessig Wolf Run. This card matters. You have a ramp deck and this is a great sink for all of that extra mana. Remember that you can even pump an opponent's creature to screw up combat. Removal on Wanderer is also generally a good thing because it enables us to recast it..
I am definitely going to have to try this out. With our mana production, this makes Wanderer alone lethal, even off of "bad" (see: ramp) cascades. My inevitable inclusion of Tolaria West (to be discussed momentarily) makes it that much better, adding utility to the already impressive transmute land, and symbiotically adding another easy means of finding this potential finisher.
Tolaria West. Transmutes into utility lands, Ancient Tomb, and Mana Crypt. We run it mostly because it transmutes into Mana Crypt and therefore counts as a three mana ramp spell that gives two mana back immediately.
No disagreement here. This is a completely uncounterable (er, ok, Stifle, but whatever) means of ramping +2 (or net +1 depending on scenario) if it goes for Ancient Tomb, or a non-conditional +2 for Mana Crypt. The only thing that gives me any worry with this guy is the :symu::symu:, but I don't predict that it will become an issue, and I have a lot of trust in ambivalentduck's testing, which leads me to think this will be a no-brainer.
Cavern of Souls. Tuck is a thing and it's definitely our biggest weakness. This addresses that pretty painlessly.
This doesn't strike me as a huge upgrade (as far as percentages), but it does seem like a no-brainer. I didn't want to spend the money on an extra Cavern, but I think my brother cut ours from his Thada list, which would mean it is up for grabs. This doesn't seem like a high priority for someone looking to put this together from the ground up, but I see no reason not to run it. Especially with Tolaria West to help find it versus permission decks.
Sylvan Library. Library manipulation and draw engine in one for a measly two-mana investment. Is that time that could have been spent ramping? Sure. But I'd rather ramp into known threats later than a likely fizzle earlier.
Yeah, I only own one and it is already spoken for, otherwise this would be included in my list. I'll get another one sooner or later, I'm just annoyed that they are hovering around $10 still. This isn't the super explosive opening we look for, but some cards are just that good, and this is one of them. Also, it tends to be the second casting of Maelstrom Wanderer that spells doom for a competitive table, and adding a cheap, super-utility card like this gives us a lot more resilience, and help us recover from a bad cascade or a board wipe.
Hellkite Tyrant. Memnarch and Sharuum are known and likely contenders for tier 1 competitive generals. This gives them both fits and can even prompt a scoop.
Man, I was really excited for this guy, but I swear every time I dropped him he got cloned, and typically with haste, and it just became a game of steal the artifacts. Maybe I didn't give him a fair shake, but he just never lived up to the possibilities for me. Have you had better luck in testing? Like, I literally got 0 good results from this card, which was really a bummer because I had high hopes when I saw it printed.
Cyclonic Rift. Yes, it's a dead cascade, but wiping the board is insanely good. Friends who play very competitively consider this the best blue card in EDH.
I love this card, but in more reactive decks. My history with this in proactive decks has been poor, because it has either been super win-more (really didn't affect the outcome), or it has been underwhelming when playing from behind (I basically buy a draw phase while everyone else reuses all their ETB triggers, and that is if not one player has a counter, because the whooooole table want to shut this card down. Have you had good results with it?
Insurrection. The cascade mechanic skips right over this, preventing timing issues. This card usually prompts people to scoop. It's obscenely good and probably the best red card in EDH. We ramp and can easily support the CMC, so there's no reason not to run this.
Yeah, this is a game ender. I need to at least test it. I swear I thought I had one, maybe it's in one of my non-competitive decks...
Overgrowth. In theory, Overgrowth on a basic meets our highest test for ramp: two mana back immediately for 3 mana invested. It also sets us up to be two-for-one-ed. Can those who play it comment on how often that happens in testing?
This is a card that scales better for competitive play than more casual play. In casual, it'll get Acidic Slimed off or something, but in competitive play, no one wants to waste a Strip Mine on our forest when Edric, Teeg, and any other plays Gaea's Cradle with loads of ways to find it, or the decks need to make sure a Homeward Path doesn't stick. It'll get nabbed randomly by a Sylvan Primordial or a Terastadon, but almost never before the first Wanderer, and less often by far than it benefiting us with a Garruk Wildspeaker or something of the sort.
Tier 1 strategies we fail to address:
Graveyard recursion ala Hermit Druid and/or Mimeoplasm
-We have only sparing countermagic/removal.
Animar swarm
-Mostly clone effects and Insurrection.
I find Hermit Druid decks to be less consistently fast than us, but that may not hold up across the board. I have played against good junk reanimator-ish decks, but not extensively. It can be rough if they get an early Druid or Exploration, but in my experience we are more consistently fast.
We could conceivably add utility guys like Scavenging Ooze, but I don't find that particularly palatable. We have access to a lot of creature stealing, and I feel as if that is perhaps a better means of controlling reanimator decks. Let them do the work for us. Perhaps a naive thought, though.
As for Mimeo... those decks can be tough, but they tend to be durdly enough that they fight with the attrition-based decks at the table. But BUG is a really strong color combination, and if they ever got access to a more compelling, lower cmc general, I would be much more worried. Have you have many specific problems with Mimeo you feel should be addressed? I play against 3 different versions, and outside of just typical BUG problems, the decks aren't particularly hard on us in specifically in my testing.
As for Animar... I have never played a particularly well-tuned version, but it philosophically has issues, and in practice as well. It can be very aggravating with the right draws, but it needs to find the perfect balance of low-cmc creatures/cheap tokens, high cmc creatures for payoff, and card draw to reload. I find Animar strategies to typically be very fragile, far more than our own, and I would list lack of resiliency as one of our biggest weaknesses.
Thada is a general I really struggle to combat. The early islandwalk steals our best ramp artifacts, it plays its own ramp artifacts, it takes everyone else's ramp artifacts (still see islandwalk), then it sits behind countermagic to protect its overdeveloped board state. It has access to all of the card draw, all of the powerful counters, all of the time walks, Memnarch, Treachery... it's a really brutal match up for us. It also gets to steal anyone's Oblivion Stone to deal with our explosive starts. On top of all of this, if you try to avoid playing islands to you can't get walked over, it can drop Back to Basics, which is another wrecking ball of a card if we aren't prepared for it. Even if we play a high percentage of basics, it is really strong at cutting us off of our colors. I would love to hear some suggestions to combat this strategy, as it has been a thorn in my side for a long time now. Typically the answer is 1cmc spot removal, but those are just dreadful in our deck.
Edit: Not that I own any anymore, but should LED be considered for this deck?
Man, I was really excited for this guy, but I swear every time I dropped him he got cloned, and typically with haste, and it just became a game of steal the artifacts. Maybe I didn't give him a fair shake, but he just never lived up to the possibilities for me. Have you had better luck in testing? Like, I literally got 0 good results from this card, which was really a bummer because I had high hopes when I saw it printed.
Right. You want the game to devolve into "steal the artifacts." All of a sudden, the entire table is fighting over a silly card while you ignore that fight and actually win.
I love this card, but in more reactive decks. My history with this in proactive decks has been poor, because it has either been super win-more (really didn't affect the outcome), or it has been underwhelming when playing from behind (I basically buy a draw phase while everyone else reuses all their ETB triggers, and that is if not one player has a counter, because the whooooole table want to shut this card down. Have you had good results with it?
Yes. It breaks pillow forts. You hold onto it until you can use it to screw the pillowfort player OR against the last player standing against you. Timing is key and you don't just wipe the board for fun.
This is a card that scales better for competitive play than more casual play. In casual, it'll get Acidic Slimed off or something, but in competitive play, no one wants to waste a Strip Mine on our forest when Edric, Teeg, and any other plays Gaea's Cradle with loads of ways to find it, or the decks need to make sure a Homeward Path doesn't stick. It'll get nabbed randomly by a Sylvan Primordial or a Terastadon, but almost never before the first Wanderer, and less often by far than it benefiting us with a Garruk Wildspeaker or something of the sort.
Makes sense. I'll test it.
As for Mimeo... those decks can be tough, but they tend to be durdly enough that they fight with the attrition-based decks at the table. But BUG is a really strong color combination, and if they ever got access to a more compelling, lower cmc general, I would be much more worried. Have you have many specific problems with Mimeo you feel should be addressed? I play against 3 different versions, and outside of just typical BUG problems, the decks aren't particularly hard on us in specifically in my testing.
I run a few answers, but I'm mostly reliant on the BUG player getting greedy and trying to win first.
Thada is a general I really struggle to combat. The early islandwalk steals our best ramp artifacts, it plays its own ramp artifacts, it takes everyone else's ramp artifacts (still see islandwalk), then it sits behind countermagic to protect its overdeveloped board state. It has access to all of the card draw, all of the powerful counters, all of the time walks, Memnarch, Treachery... it's a really brutal match up for us. It also gets to steal anyone's Oblivion Stone to deal with our explosive starts. On top of all of this, if you try to avoid playing islands to you can't get walked over, it can drop Back to Basics, which is another wrecking ball of a card if we aren't prepared for it. Even if we play a high percentage of basics, it is really strong at cutting us off of our colors. I would love to hear some suggestions to combat this strategy, as it has been a thorn in my side for a long time now. Typically the answer is 1cmc spot removal, but those are just dreadful in our deck.
Devastation Tide seems reasonable. Gruul Charm and Brand are also technically options. Wake of Destruction is pretty brutal much later as he's likely on Snow-Covered Islands. You can also run Vedalken Shackles if your meta is so swarmed with microgenerals.
Edit: Not that I own any anymore, but should LED be considered for this deck?
I don't think it's worth it, but it was worth thinking about.
After some testing, we're really answer-light. I got in to a few four player games today where two of the people would be Johnny or Timmy with NO idea what they were doing: playing combo pieces that fed the rest of the table while they advanced their board state at an abysmal rate and ran no answers. The dedicated combo decks wrecked me.
That said, some bright spots. Thada Adel is actually very strong in this deck. Somberwald Sage is not very strong in testing. I frequently would have preferred two colorless for more ramp instead of three colored for critters I didn't have in hand. Prophet of Kruphix was useless. Teferi is a double-edged sword because copies of it shut down our general. Mystic Remora is extremely good because it gives opponents little choice: most must feed your hand.
Additionally, Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid also already have the ability of a leveled up Joraga Treespeaker. Yes, I'm aware of the format and building redundancy into the deck, but then why have these cards instead of more Elves?
Additionally, Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid also already have the ability of a leveled up Joraga Treespeaker. Yes, I'm aware of the format and building redundancy into the deck, but then why have these cards instead of more Elves?
First and foremost, sorry for the lack of activity on this thread, I've only managed three games over the past month or so, and even in those I was playing against my deck, rather than with it.
Now, to address Joraga, he is never meant to be fully leveled up. What he is, however, is a better version of the Fyndhorn Elder bunch. He taps for two after a three mana investment, however Joraga gives you the ability to start turn one. The on turn two you level him and immediately have the level up investment back. So you have essentially a turn one Fyndhorn Elder, all while retaining the ability to play turn two powerhouses like Rofellos, Grim Monolith, etc.
Llanowar Elves and its variants spend a card to only advance one turn off of the Wanderer clock. This is a poor investment of a card for us.
I am not sure what particular good Seedborn Muse does for us. Most of our splashy plays are sorcery speed, so the untap doesn't do a whole lot of good. Certainly not enough to justify a card slot. Prophet is largely the same, although he does allow us to EOT creatures. But even then, he runs our guys into our opponents wrath effects rather than coming in for value with haste. The card just doesn't do much of anything in the strategy this particular style of build is running.
Coiling Oracle is almost strictly worse than Rampant Growth variants for us, unless he gets hooked to DEN, although that is just about the least broken DEN combo we offer ;P I did run Oracle for a good while, though. It is a fine card, just didn't make the cut.
Unexpected Results... I ran this as a joke before I had the deck at all tuned well, and it lived up to its joke status. It was an easy cut. There are too many good things we can do to submit ourselves to random effects that are never broken.
Got in about 5 games tonight with the new build, albeit in 1v1 competition vs my Jenara deck. The changes have tested very well so far, allowing for a more versatile means of attack, mainly the ability to pick when to explode rather than just kind of having to go for it, and if they stop it they stop it. I won one particularly grindy game against Jenara, and while I had an incredible draw, Jenara (at least my build of it) is about as grindy as they come, so to win a war of attrition against that deck speaks volumes, even taking a very good hand into account.
It is probably worth noting that Brutalizer Exarch never found its way in, getting cut last-minute to bring back Phantasmal Image. I was initially worried about needing an extra DEN target, and realized I have enough very strong DEN targets as is.
Deadeye himself made appearances in three (maybe four?) of the games. In the last game it was a TnN win, pretty straight forward. He didn't do a ton in his other appearances, but is just a lightning rod for hate, so he is a fantastic diversionary tactic. Almost had a jean-creaming flip of Arcanis the Omnipotent and DEN off of Wanderer, but Wanderer ate a Hinder, and without haste it is not a particularly beneficial soulbond. Arcanis did his thing, though, drawing me 9 cards before my opponent scooped to Regrowth on Time Stretch.
Jace was... well, Jace. And while he has a tendency to sit in my hand in favor of explosive openings, he ate a Force of Will in one game, and did his thing in another. Adds both resiliency and threat density, which is huge for this deck.
Thada didn't have a great showing, but only came out once, and stole a Sol Ring which contributed to a win. Blue collar, but not particularly enticing. Knowing her potential though, I will continue to give her every opportunity to prove herself.
Fabricate and Tolaria West were both awesome. I wish I had a high end artifact for Fabricate, but there is just nothing I want to run, and it does its job very well regardless.
Didn't see Kessig outside of goldfishing. Another good attrition card, it would seem, though, as it allows for grindy wins.
Regrowth was just awesome. Any realistic means of recurring our time walks is just terrific. I hope it continues to test as well as it did tonight.
This was obviously a small sample size, and not even in multiplayer, but I could sense a different feel with some of the new cards. I have high hopes for the upcoming Sylvan Library, and obviously Bribery. I think my cuts for them are Natural Order, which without Craterhoof has left mostly Witness as a target (can get Avenger, but I am not looking for extra Avenger tutors), and maybe a ramp piece.
Oh, Blatant Thievery also showed up, and I was impressed by its ability to impact even a 1v1 game. Can't wait to try it in multiplayer.
Jace is very good, but realistically can be omitted. Not even close to a reasonable effect to dollar ratio. I have loved it every time I've gotten the guy, and he is one of the suite of cards that allows us to play a slower tempo and pick and choose our opening, rather than just trying to brute force through everybody. Cards like Jace, Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack, and the like are the main proponents that allow us to do this type of game plan (in my experience). As such, Jace is very nice, he provides versatility and resiliency, all while working toward our singularly proactive plan as well. He fits like a glove. But if I were to pick up one money card for this deck, it would be Mana Crypt (idk why I bother linking that one since it is not recognized).
It is probably worth noting that Brutalizer Exarch never found its way in, getting cut last-minute to bring back Phantasmal Image. I was initially worried about needing an extra DEN target, and realized I have enough very strong DEN targets as is.
Exarch is the only DEN target that tutors DEN and then does something relevant after DEN hits. Just saying'...
Thada didn't have a great showing, but only came out once, and stole a Sol Ring which contributed to a win. Blue collar, but not particularly enticing. Knowing her potential though, I will continue to give her every opportunity to prove herself.
I play her like a repeatable Fabricate without "haste." She finds me a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring every turn. If I'm flooded with mana, I'll use someone's SDT as a draw engine. (Tap to put it on top of their library, Thada it again.)
Have you tried Wildfire, Greater Good, or Mystic Remora?
Lmao, that's funny, I just commented on your thread about my GG experienc
Mystic Remora I have not tried yet. I on't own one, and while they are not expensive, I have simply not gotten around to ordering one yet. None of my locals have one.
Yeah, with one of the better decks in my meta being Thada, I am very willing to give a decent number of chances for that card to prove itself. Very powerful card. Plus, with our ramp, lets us snap other players high CMC artifacts later in the game. Memnarchs, Blightsteels, Slavers, etc.
I have not tried Wildfire as I am nearly 100% certain it would not be a good effect in my meta. Too many decks with counters, too much instant speed removal.
I have not tried Wildfire as I am nearly 100% certain it would not be a good effect in my meta. Too many decks with counters, too much instant speed removal.
Wildfire is only bad against other non-critter ramp decks. In the Standard season that Kai Budde won with Wildfire, he was up against a lot of stompy and draw-go. Wildfire is actually good against blue control decks.
Thada is a non-creature ramp-control deck. Edric runs a massive number of counters. Zur is packed with counters. Jenara a non-creature-based ramp deck with adequate counters. Mono black (both Chainer and Sheoldred) are non-creature based ramp decks. Animar (the one I face) is poorly built and not a threat. Gaddock Teeg lock out Wildfire. This is a sampling of what I am likely to face. Oh, Rafiq, also, which is non-creature based ramp and plays counters. Most of the decks are not control, per say. Probably only Thada, Thrax, and Sen Triplets are control decks that I run into. Thrax isn't scary, Thada is basically immune. All pack 1cmc instant-speed removal. Mine is just not a good meta for Wildfire. Mostly UGx ramp and non-G artifact ramp. Pretty much all have potential combo finishers. It would be very effective against Kaalia, which sees some play. Also there is another Wanderer deck. My Wanderer and Edric are the creature-based rampers in our meta (Edric much more than me). What scares me is that since almost all of the decks run counters, either it will not resolve, or worse yet it will be allowed to resolve by someone in a better position to leverage it than me.
This deck has been the absolute nuts in my meta. Nigh unstoppable, with zero losses. The only things that seem to slow this deck down are complete board wipes, and getting Wanderer tucked. I've only gotten him tucked once with chaos warp, and ended up top decking a Brutalizer Exarch. Kind of hilarious. The other fastest deck in my meta has been Kaalia, but Wanderer seems to outrace her fairly well most of the time.
Glad it's been working out for you. Sometimes I forget that a lot of our conversation about the deck is not actually in this thread
I do want to apologize for being lazy/lacking feedback and time to work more on ideas for the more budget version of the deck. I have had a hard enough time getting any opportunities to test my own version, it has seemed silly to dedicate much time to hypothetical builds. Finally have been getting some games in recently, though.
Faced a mirror match tonight with a guy running Urabrask the Hidden pretty good at shutting Wanderer down. Basically we canceled each other out and enabled the Roon player to infinite turn by turn 7.
Quick response: those are all very good card suggestions, all of which I have put thought into after seeing them on your list, and all of which deserve to be addressed. Many if not all of them will be added at least for the purpose of testing due to your recommendation. I will have a more in-depth response after work, as well as my history with Overgrowth.
I also want to add Thada Adel to tier 1 strategies that really hurt us (and that Hellkite Tyrant helps us to address). Good stuff, good post. I'll also get back to you on what you posted on your thread, but I am allowed to double-post on this one because it's mine, so I can afford a place-holder comment on this thread. Thanks!
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
First: you don't seem to like infinite combos, which is odd considering the choice of general...
Second: Much of your ramp could be upgraded I think, though it would take me a bit to compile a list of options.
Third: You may, since you run more ramp than other decks of Maelstrom, need more card draw, as often, it seems, you will run into a lot of mana and nothing to do with it.
Finally, and MOST IMPORTANT: I find your lack of Kiki-Jiki disturbing.
Please look at and comment on the above! Looking for any advice and thoughts!
Upgrading ramp isn't straightforward, but pointing out anything we've overlooked would be appreciated. Between the two of us, I'm fairly confident that we exhaust the best options.
Kiki-Jiki is a backup DEN. He's not particularly resilient and does little in a vacuum where DEN can usually at least pair with Maelstrom to protect both. He's very very good, but it's not clear that he outclasses DEN.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I am absolutely all ears when it comes to ramp; in my opinion this is the most important part of making this deck competitive.
As for infinite combos, I feel as if just winning the game is just as good as "going infinite". I think a lot of people get a little too hot and bothered by the word "infinite", and play cards that are otherwise poor because they allow them to go infinite. I am perfectly happy just winning the game. Now, I do have an unreasonable dislike of DEN, and I am going to have to get over it. That guy is going in, and clearly belongs, I think.
Kiki played his way out of my list. He is a really bad cascade in almost every early scenario (in my list; I don't run a lot of attractive etb targets) and is dreadful to hardcast with :symr::symr::symr: in his casting cost. I think perhaps it is a simple issue of my particular build vs. others, because I have heard plenty of people vouch for Kiki.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
No disagreement here. This is a completely uncounterable (er, ok, Stifle, but whatever) means of ramping +2 (or net +1 depending on scenario) if it goes for Ancient Tomb, or a non-conditional +2 for Mana Crypt. The only thing that gives me any worry with this guy is the :symu::symu:, but I don't predict that it will become an issue, and I have a lot of trust in ambivalentduck's testing, which leads me to think this will be a no-brainer.
This doesn't strike me as a huge upgrade (as far as percentages), but it does seem like a no-brainer. I didn't want to spend the money on an extra Cavern, but I think my brother cut ours from his Thada list, which would mean it is up for grabs. This doesn't seem like a high priority for someone looking to put this together from the ground up, but I see no reason not to run it. Especially with Tolaria West to help find it versus permission decks.
Yeah, I only own one and it is already spoken for, otherwise this would be included in my list. I'll get another one sooner or later, I'm just annoyed that they are hovering around $10 still. This isn't the super explosive opening we look for, but some cards are just that good, and this is one of them. Also, it tends to be the second casting of Maelstrom Wanderer that spells doom for a competitive table, and adding a cheap, super-utility card like this gives us a lot more resilience, and help us recover from a bad cascade or a board wipe.
Man, I was really excited for this guy, but I swear every time I dropped him he got cloned, and typically with haste, and it just became a game of steal the artifacts. Maybe I didn't give him a fair shake, but he just never lived up to the possibilities for me. Have you had better luck in testing? Like, I literally got 0 good results from this card, which was really a bummer because I had high hopes when I saw it printed.
I love this card, but in more reactive decks. My history with this in proactive decks has been poor, because it has either been super win-more (really didn't affect the outcome), or it has been underwhelming when playing from behind (I basically buy a draw phase while everyone else reuses all their ETB triggers, and that is if not one player has a counter, because the whooooole table want to shut this card down. Have you had good results with it?
Yeah, this is a game ender. I need to at least test it. I swear I thought I had one, maybe it's in one of my non-competitive decks...
This is a card that scales better for competitive play than more casual play. In casual, it'll get Acidic Slimed off or something, but in competitive play, no one wants to waste a Strip Mine on our forest when Edric, Teeg, and any other plays Gaea's Cradle with loads of ways to find it, or the decks need to make sure a Homeward Path doesn't stick. It'll get nabbed randomly by a Sylvan Primordial or a Terastadon, but almost never before the first Wanderer, and less often by far than it benefiting us with a Garruk Wildspeaker or something of the sort.
I find Hermit Druid decks to be less consistently fast than us, but that may not hold up across the board. I have played against good junk reanimator-ish decks, but not extensively. It can be rough if they get an early Druid or Exploration, but in my experience we are more consistently fast.
We could conceivably add utility guys like Scavenging Ooze, but I don't find that particularly palatable. We have access to a lot of creature stealing, and I feel as if that is perhaps a better means of controlling reanimator decks. Let them do the work for us. Perhaps a naive thought, though.
As for Mimeo... those decks can be tough, but they tend to be durdly enough that they fight with the attrition-based decks at the table. But BUG is a really strong color combination, and if they ever got access to a more compelling, lower cmc general, I would be much more worried. Have you have many specific problems with Mimeo you feel should be addressed? I play against 3 different versions, and outside of just typical BUG problems, the decks aren't particularly hard on us in specifically in my testing.
As for Animar... I have never played a particularly well-tuned version, but it philosophically has issues, and in practice as well. It can be very aggravating with the right draws, but it needs to find the perfect balance of low-cmc creatures/cheap tokens, high cmc creatures for payoff, and card draw to reload. I find Animar strategies to typically be very fragile, far more than our own, and I would list lack of resiliency as one of our biggest weaknesses.
Thada is a general I really struggle to combat. The early islandwalk steals our best ramp artifacts, it plays its own ramp artifacts, it takes everyone else's ramp artifacts (still see islandwalk), then it sits behind countermagic to protect its overdeveloped board state. It has access to all of the card draw, all of the powerful counters, all of the time walks, Memnarch, Treachery... it's a really brutal match up for us. It also gets to steal anyone's Oblivion Stone to deal with our explosive starts. On top of all of this, if you try to avoid playing islands to you can't get walked over, it can drop Back to Basics, which is another wrecking ball of a card if we aren't prepared for it. Even if we play a high percentage of basics, it is really strong at cutting us off of our colors. I would love to hear some suggestions to combat this strategy, as it has been a thorn in my side for a long time now. Typically the answer is 1cmc spot removal, but those are just dreadful in our deck.
Edit: Not that I own any anymore, but should LED be considered for this deck?
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Right. You want the game to devolve into "steal the artifacts." All of a sudden, the entire table is fighting over a silly card while you ignore that fight and actually win.
Yes. It breaks pillow forts. You hold onto it until you can use it to screw the pillowfort player OR against the last player standing against you. Timing is key and you don't just wipe the board for fun.
Makes sense. I'll test it.
I run a few answers, but I'm mostly reliant on the BUG player getting greedy and trying to win first.
Devastation Tide seems reasonable. Gruul Charm and Brand are also technically options. Wake of Destruction is pretty brutal much later as he's likely on Snow-Covered Islands. You can also run Vedalken Shackles if your meta is so swarmed with microgenerals.
I don't think it's worth it, but it was worth thinking about.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
That said, some bright spots. Thada Adel is actually very strong in this deck. Somberwald Sage is not very strong in testing. I frequently would have preferred two colorless for more ramp instead of three colored for critters I didn't have in hand. Prophet of Kruphix was useless. Teferi is a double-edged sword because copies of it shut down our general. Mystic Remora is extremely good because it gives opponents little choice: most must feed your hand.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I have a few questions about perceived inconsistencies in your card choices.
But not:
Additionally, Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid also already have the ability of a leveled up Joraga Treespeaker. Yes, I'm aware of the format and building redundancy into the deck, but then why have these cards instead of more Elves?
Next point, why not run Seedborn Muse or the latest improvement, Prophet of Kruphix? I also see Unexpected Results and Coiling Oracle as very good inclusions, even from a competitive standpoint.
First and foremost, sorry for the lack of activity on this thread, I've only managed three games over the past month or so, and even in those I was playing against my deck, rather than with it.
Now, to address Joraga, he is never meant to be fully leveled up. What he is, however, is a better version of the Fyndhorn Elder bunch. He taps for two after a three mana investment, however Joraga gives you the ability to start turn one. The on turn two you level him and immediately have the level up investment back. So you have essentially a turn one Fyndhorn Elder, all while retaining the ability to play turn two powerhouses like Rofellos, Grim Monolith, etc.
Llanowar Elves and its variants spend a card to only advance one turn off of the Wanderer clock. This is a poor investment of a card for us.
I am not sure what particular good Seedborn Muse does for us. Most of our splashy plays are sorcery speed, so the untap doesn't do a whole lot of good. Certainly not enough to justify a card slot. Prophet is largely the same, although he does allow us to EOT creatures. But even then, he runs our guys into our opponents wrath effects rather than coming in for value with haste. The card just doesn't do much of anything in the strategy this particular style of build is running.
Coiling Oracle is almost strictly worse than Rampant Growth variants for us, unless he gets hooked to DEN, although that is just about the least broken DEN combo we offer ;P I did run Oracle for a good while, though. It is a fine card, just didn't make the cut.
Unexpected Results... I ran this as a joke before I had the deck at all tuned well, and it lived up to its joke status. It was an easy cut. There are too many good things we can do to submit ourselves to random effects that are never broken.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
+
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Edit: It should also be noted that I have a Sylvan Library, Palinchron (will swap with P. Drake), and Bribery coming in the mail for the deck as well.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
It is probably worth noting that Brutalizer Exarch never found its way in, getting cut last-minute to bring back Phantasmal Image. I was initially worried about needing an extra DEN target, and realized I have enough very strong DEN targets as is.
Deadeye himself made appearances in three (maybe four?) of the games. In the last game it was a TnN win, pretty straight forward. He didn't do a ton in his other appearances, but is just a lightning rod for hate, so he is a fantastic diversionary tactic. Almost had a jean-creaming flip of Arcanis the Omnipotent and DEN off of Wanderer, but Wanderer ate a Hinder, and without haste it is not a particularly beneficial soulbond. Arcanis did his thing, though, drawing me 9 cards before my opponent scooped to Regrowth on Time Stretch.
Jace was... well, Jace. And while he has a tendency to sit in my hand in favor of explosive openings, he ate a Force of Will in one game, and did his thing in another. Adds both resiliency and threat density, which is huge for this deck.
Thada didn't have a great showing, but only came out once, and stole a Sol Ring which contributed to a win. Blue collar, but not particularly enticing. Knowing her potential though, I will continue to give her every opportunity to prove herself.
Fabricate and Tolaria West were both awesome. I wish I had a high end artifact for Fabricate, but there is just nothing I want to run, and it does its job very well regardless.
Didn't see Kessig outside of goldfishing. Another good attrition card, it would seem, though, as it allows for grindy wins.
Regrowth was just awesome. Any realistic means of recurring our time walks is just terrific. I hope it continues to test as well as it did tonight.
This was obviously a small sample size, and not even in multiplayer, but I could sense a different feel with some of the new cards. I have high hopes for the upcoming Sylvan Library, and obviously Bribery. I think my cuts for them are Natural Order, which without Craterhoof has left mostly Witness as a target (can get Avenger, but I am not looking for extra Avenger tutors), and maybe a ramp piece.
Oh, Blatant Thievery also showed up, and I was impressed by its ability to impact even a 1v1 game. Can't wait to try it in multiplayer.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Exarch is the only DEN target that tutors DEN and then does something relevant after DEN hits. Just saying'...
I play her like a repeatable Fabricate without "haste." She finds me a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring every turn. If I'm flooded with mana, I'll use someone's SDT as a draw engine. (Tap to put it on top of their library, Thada it again.)
Have you tried Wildfire, Greater Good, or Mystic Remora?
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Mystic Remora I have not tried yet. I on't own one, and while they are not expensive, I have simply not gotten around to ordering one yet. None of my locals have one.
Yeah, with one of the better decks in my meta being Thada, I am very willing to give a decent number of chances for that card to prove itself. Very powerful card. Plus, with our ramp, lets us snap other players high CMC artifacts later in the game. Memnarchs, Blightsteels, Slavers, etc.
I have not tried Wildfire as I am nearly 100% certain it would not be a good effect in my meta. Too many decks with counters, too much instant speed removal.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Wildfire is only bad against other non-critter ramp decks. In the Standard season that Kai Budde won with Wildfire, he was up against a lot of stompy and draw-go. Wildfire is actually good against blue control decks.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
This deck has been the absolute nuts in my meta. Nigh unstoppable, with zero losses. The only things that seem to slow this deck down are complete board wipes, and getting Wanderer tucked. I've only gotten him tucked once with chaos warp, and ended up top decking a Brutalizer Exarch. Kind of hilarious. The other fastest deck in my meta has been Kaalia, but Wanderer seems to outrace her fairly well most of the time.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Glad Maelstrom is doing well for you.
Exact list?
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I do want to apologize for being lazy/lacking feedback and time to work more on ideas for the more budget version of the deck. I have had a hard enough time getting any opportunities to test my own version, it has seemed silly to dedicate much time to hypothetical builds. Finally have been getting some games in recently, though.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort