See, this is interesting. If I am playing in a game with more than four total people, I sure hope someone does something big and wins by turn 5-6 at the latest. Going to turn eight with eight people is like playing a 32 turn game in a duel, except you can't see what half of the people are doing
But for me, the best way to keep the locals from getting too salty is simple: I let them play my other decks. I make sure to carry around 3-4 other decks around the same level as the one I am trying to tune, and if they are always free to use them if they would like. While explosive, Wanderer is certainly not the best of my decks (I am the keeper of my and my brother's EDH decks), I just find it to be the most fun to play. And if I am sitting down with my competitive group, I am definitely not playing the best deck in the match.
That said, advising you to build a bunch of other decks as good or better than the one you are trying to run is not great economical advice. If you don't have the spare cards lying around, I don't really know what to tell you. My other thing is that if no one has decks up to par, I tell them I just want to play one game with Wanderer to test out my recent changes and evaluate the state it's in, and then I play with my lower tier decks afterward. If you have no other decks at all, maybe play one of theirs? If they have no other decks... uh, you sound pretty screwed.
The reason I was asking in part is because we have an EDH league tournament and no one likes it when I play Maelstrom, but I mean, I built Maelstrom Wanderer to win. I don't play it in casual anymore, I made a semi competitive Marath deck whenever I am playing in a non tournament setting.
For the long turns, the people at our shop really like long turned games, people get kind of bent out of shape when the game ends anywhere before turn 10.
As for letting them play my other decks, well I don't really have the budget to make any decks better than Maelstrom, nor do I really think that I could. The build I use isn't quite explosive as yours so it tends to hold its own very easily against many decks that aren't packing as much power. I would honestly say out of the 10 or 12 people that attend our EDH league, I am legitimately only scared of one other person there. There have been games where I have eliminated that one person and successfully 1v10 the rest of the table without much difficulty.
Ill try that bit about playing it only to play test for fine tuning, and then swapping to a weaker deck, or playing one of theirs, but should I just play Marath for league? or tell my commander league to get good and stop being salty? I wouldn't actually say that, but its really tempting.
What decks do you have that are more consistent or better than Maelstrom? I really like the idea of over ramping into giant fatties.
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I do have her, I just like doing silly little combo's like Marath + doubling season + purphoros. If I wanted to make my Marath deck more competitive, I would probably run Mayael instead as a commander, yeah. How good can Mayael get? is it tournament competitive? Running Naya in EDH just feels like you are waiting to be blown out by counterspells and removal.
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What decks do you have that are more consistent or better than Maelstrom? I really like the idea of over ramping into giant fatties.
Well, probably the best deck is Thada Adel, Acquisitor. After that is either Wanderer or Jenara, Asura of War. Those flip-flop based on metagame issues, as the Jenara deck is super resilient and consistent, whereas Wanderer is far more explosive and powerful. Probably a half-tier behind is Chainer, Dementia Master, because while MBC is fun and has good high-end, it isn't fast enough to consistently have a good chance against the other decks. It is close enough to be a competitive option, but definitely needs the most help/luck. I guess Gaddock Teeg can also compete, but just because of how squirrelly his ability is, not because the deck is built particularly well. More of gimmick with a chance because he can shut down everyone at once by being such a dick. The rest of my decks are based on the new commander precons, albeit heavily modded, but they are not close to the same level. Teeg tends to realistically be on that level, but his ability can really cause some mayhem, so he is a competitive option at times.
At some point I will have links for reference (for the worthwhile ones), but I am a bit lazy as of right now. Er, the Chainer list is in my sig, although not fully up to date.
I do have her, I just like doing silly little combo's like Marath + doubling season + purphoros. If I wanted to make my Marath deck more competitive, I would probably run Mayael instead as a commander, yeah. How good can Mayael get? is it tournament competitive? Running Naya in EDH just feels like you are waiting to be blown out by counterspells and removal.
I actually happen to think, personally, that Marath is much stronger than Mayael. Mayael lends itself to certain combo wins like Palinchron and enables blue, but Marath is a much stronger card in a vacuum, and doesn't create as many deck building paradoxes. Such as: in Mayael you want lots of small guys to get the engine going, lots of big guys as pay off, and the ability to draw lots of cards to keep the steam rolling. That is ridiculously hard to balance while trying to also include the aspects that blue offers that help the deck. Imo neither one has any business trying to be tier 1 competitive, but, like all commanders you can build a good deck around them if you have the inspiration and will to do so.
Er, not to fully derail the Maelstrom Wanderer conversation, though
Commentary: Kiki didn't do nearly enough. I have too few creatures I want to copy. I already instantly win off of TnN with Craterhoof/Avenger, both of whom have independently tested much stronger than Kiki or Zealous Conscripts. Conscripts absolutely never mattered without Kiki, and Kiki wasn't useful enough on his own. On the other hand, because of my man-ramp plan, Craterhoof is amazing, and Avenger is very good by himself (good Natural Order target if I get NO in the early game). The things that stop Avenger/Hoof also stop Kiki/Conscripts.
Boundless Realms was a place holder the whole time. Never meant to make the final deck. Baloths and Roil are too fragile/inconsistent (although I have not tested them a ton).
Mana Drain... it's good if I draw it early and have :symu::symu: open on turn two, no other turn two plays, and something to do with the mana afterward (ideally cast Wanderer, but typically not the case). It forces me into the wrong direction early, pushing for :symu::symu: early instead of :symg::symg:. It will very likely be the last of all of the cards on the chopping block to be cut, but it does not seem to be good enough for the optimized version. Additionally, it has been pointed out to me that it is in fact a horrible cascade rather than simply mediocre-to-poor, as it gives you the mana on your next main phase, not your next pre-combat main phase. So if we cast Wanderer main phase one like we should (haste matters), we cannot recast him with the drain mana.
New title! I think it's cool, but I'm a bit of a nerd, so my perception of cool is skewed ;p
I do love a good Tolkien reference, though.
Anyway, I'm looking for ways to spice up my OP and generate some new discussion/buzz. What would you guys like to see me add to this page, how would you like me to change or improve my formatting, or what other suggestions might the people of the forums have for me?
I want to include a segment with some of the different suites and packages, allowing people to see both how I am using certain cards synergistically, as well as showing how to easily cut a whole group of cards at once if you don't like to do things the exact same way I do. I also plan to add a short guide on how to play the deck in different situations, mulligans, and how we deal with different strategies; what game states make certain cards more important, and little tricks to get past those tough decks that may be really posing troubles for us. For a segment like that, however, I am more than happy to listen to suggestions for certain decks that are trouble, as well as good ways to overcome the adversity we face from them. I can only draw from my experience, and would love any suggestions or feedback.
I should have a good financial window to snag a lot of the remaining cards I plan to run (at least Bribery, Blatant Thievery, Fabricate, and Arcanis the Omnipotent, and possibly Exploration, which I am not 100% sold on (poor cascade), but has plenty of upside.
This also seems like a good time to thank everyone for their contributions so far, very notably Tazriel and ambivalentduck. I have gotten a lot of great suggestions, and am finally getting a chance to test and implement them. Very exciting!!
I think a great segment would be a "less competitive budget section" Or a good starting place to start building this deck without sinking a ton of money in quite yet.
How is the deck w.o fetches? I have 4/8 of them :\ Also, Mana Crypts/Mana Drain/ The oldschool duals are a bit out of my reach.
I'd go as far as saying that Mana Crypt is more important more any two fetches because it enables Trinket Mage/Fabricate/Tolaria West to be three mana ramp spells that immediately give you two mana back. Stomping Ground and Breeding Pool are important because of the ramp spells that find forests.
Yes, fetches and duals help, but Ruination/Blood Moon/etc can make up for losing them.
I'd go as far as saying that Mana Crypt is more important more any two fetches because it enables Trinket Mage/Fabricate/Tolaria West to be three mana ramp spells that immediately give you two mana back. Stomping Ground and Breeding Pool are important because of the ramp spells that find forests.
Yes, fetches and duals help, but Ruination/Blood Moon/etc can make up for losing them.
Makes sense.
I have multiples of the zend fetches, as I used to play RUG when it was in standard. I'd be willing to trade a few of those for a mana crypt if I needed to.
I plan to put in a budget version here within the next week or so, which will give me time to get a full list ready. However, the real cost of the deck comes from the mana base and the ramp spells. Cut out Mana Crypt ~$80, the ABU duals ~$270 total, cut the Godo + Sword package $40-50 (and not worth it), the Onslaught fetches ~$200, and Temporal Manipulation ~$40, and all of sudden you have apretty affordable deck. I would try to spend money on things like Grim Monolith and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (the pair will probably set you back about $30), but even those are not necessary. The meat and potatoes of the ramp suite are cheap. So replace the expensive ones with Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. Add in splashy spells of your choice to cascade with, and you probably are set back to expecting a turn 5.5 Wanderer instead of turn 4, but still with turn 4 capability (especially if you have Grim and Rofellos).
So, the question that remains is whether or not in your meta it is worth playing a deck that "goes off" on turn 5-6 consistently. If that is too slow, I wouldn't bother, because this deck is not good at winning wars of attrition. But even that being said, we have stripped it down from it's pricier cards, and the ones that are still a bit more costly are just good cards to have in general.
As far as any specific card swaps, or specific cards you can't/don't want to get, I'm more than happy to address those specifically, but I have a hard time guessing what people do and don't have.
Also, I would try to get a copy of the shock lands, because they are very solid with the search for "forest" cards, but even these are not necessary. But you may also have to broaden your land ramp spells to accommodate the increasing difficulty in getting your colors down in time (I don't anticipate that being much of a problem, but I didn't start with a budget version and work my way up, so I have not experienced putting together this deck from ground up)
Really looking forward to a "budget" version of the deck. You're right, once you drop the mentioned cards, this deck isn't THAT expensive. Especially for how fun it looks to play.
The challenging part is trying to figure out what to include when the sword package+temporal manipulation + Natural Order is dropped.
Natural Order is a dicey inclusion since Wanderer isn't in play when Order's additional cost needs to be paid. That said, Wanderer is probably a particularly poor candidate for budget play due to its reliance on artifact ramp and splashy/undercosted spells.
Have either of you (duck or coupon) considered Memory Jar? I've been testing it the past week and it has been pretty good. If you run a lot of mana rocks it's even better. I'm generally able to cast half the cards I draw off the jar.
Natural Order is a dicey inclusion since Wanderer isn't in play when Order's additional cost needs to be paid. That said, Wanderer is probably a particularly poor candidate for budget play due to its reliance on artifact ramp and splashy/undercosted spells.
I was able to keep most of the ramp and other parts of the deck. I do miss a bunch of the fetches.
I don't play competitively anymore, so if it's reliable enough to have some fun by turn 5~6, that's fine with me.
Have either of you (duck or coupon) considered Memory Jar? I've been testing it the past week and it has been pretty good. If you run a lot of mana rocks it's even better. I'm generally able to cast half the cards I draw off the jar.
I'd have to test it. First impression: it stocks the graveyard, which can get ugly against reanimator decks. It also loads up everyone's hand with use-it-or-lose-it instant-speed removal. Since most of your board development is lands, that actually gives them ammunition to wreck one another's boards with.
Natural Order is a dicey inclusion since Wanderer isn't in play when Order's additional cost needs to be paid.
Natural Order works much better in my build because of the man-ramp plan. It is still possible to get a dud hit off of it, but not very likely. Additionally, we can simply hardcast is on t3 for Sylvan Primordial, which more than makes up for the unlikely scenario of whiffing on it off of a cascade. That is how my testing has shown so far, at least.
Have either of you (duck or coupon) considered Memory Jar? I've been testing it the past week and it has been pretty good. If you run a lot of mana rocks it's even better. I'm generally able to cast half the cards I draw off the jar.
I have not looked into it yet. Partially because I only own one, and it is in my Chainer deck. The bigger issue is that I really want effects that happen the turn they hit play. It is unlikely that we will be activating the jar that turn if we cascade into it (rare to have enough mana to effectively utilize it in that regard) or if we cast it from hand. The effect is unreal. Drawing a fresh hand with untapped mana is nutty nutty nutty. So I am very open to listening to anyone else's testing results with it. But I do not have any immediate plans to acquire another one to test for this deck.
Lmao, as for the rocks (and I do run them), I have never seen a deck that draws out its opponents Oblivion Stones as frequently as Wanderer. Everyone goes for their stones all the time (and I play against Thada, so she gets her stones, my opponents stones, my stone... UGH), so my rock-based ramping rarely lives longer than my man-based ramping.
I was able to keep most of the ramp and other parts of the deck. I do miss a bunch of the fetches.
I don't play competitively anymore, so if it's reliable enough to have some fun by turn 5~6, that's fine with me.
That was my exact goal in the budget list. I think you will find it does nasty, nasty things by 5-6, essentially every game. Still some t3, t4 potential, just not as much. At some point I think I will add an order of priorities for the more expensive cards, as people who enjoy the budget version look to potentially build toward a non-budget version.
Updates! Budget List now available on second post (albeit thus far without any discussion or card explanatios). For any and all interested, I would love to hear some feedback and see where I can improve the budget list, or if there are any directions I went with it that you just don't like. Also, if too many of the cards still seem pricey, holla atcha boy. I'll revisit my choices and try to accommodate all you wonderful, lovely people.
Also, I updated the OP to include a Packages spoiler that briefly detail some of the different packages we run or can run, and why certain cards do or do not belong within the confines of those particular packages.
One last thing, the Card Choices section has now been spoilered to avoid too much scrolling on the OP. Good or bad? Feedback valued.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the views and the commentary, keep letting me know why I'm awesome, why I suck, and why your versions are better. That's how we all keep getting better 'round here. Peace, folks, have a good one
That was my exact goal in the budget list. I think you will find it does nasty, nasty things by 5-6, essentially every game. Still some t3, t4 potential, just not as much. At some point I think I will add an order of priorities for the more expensive cards, as people who enjoy the budget version look to potentially build toward a non-budget version.
Am I allowed to tell you I love you? That's exactly what I was looking for!
Updates! Budget List now available on second post (albeit thus far without any discussion or card explanatios). For any and all interested, I would love to hear some feedback and see where I can improve the budget list, or if there are any directions I went with it that you just don't like. Also, if too many of the cards still seem pricey, holla atcha boy. I'll revisit my choices and try to accommodate all you wonderful, lovely people.
Also, I updated the OP to include a Packages spoiler that briefly detail some of the different packages we run or can run, and why certain cards do or do not belong within the confines of those particular packages.
One last thing, the Card Choices section has now been spoilered to avoid too much scrolling on the OP. Good or bad? Feedback valued.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the views and the commentary, keep letting me know why I'm awesome, why I suck, and why your versions are better. That's how we all keep getting better 'round here. Peace, folks, have a good one
Again, AMAZING job with all of this work. Well done.
In response to the first post, Tolaria West is absent from the NBL section. It's essentially a 1UU tutor for Mana Crypt or Cavern/Kessig/Ancient Tomb.
When you build this deck on a budget, you become more of a Tooth and Nail deck. You still have Mystical/Tooth/Knowledge Exploitation as well as Deadeye and Palinchron. You lose some of the stronger ramp effects (Mana Crypt, Mana Drain) and utility effects (Jace TMS, Temporal Manipulation, Cryptic Command, Intuition). I don't think the loss of fetches/duals is that big a thing. You probably need Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground, but those are both in Standard right now.
I'm pretty sure that the right Tooth and Nail package is Palinchron-Deadeye(-Maelstrom) with a backup package for when Maelstrom or a suitable substitute isn't available. The primary package is so strong that I doubt it's ever in question. Craterhoof is particularly weak to spot removal. Other options include:
1) Palinchron-Witness to let you recast Tooth for two additional mana finding Deadeye and Venser. For yet another two mana, you make infi mana and infi tokens, and cast Tooth infi times off Witness recursion. In theory, Venser wipes everyone else's board and gives you a counter wall to win at your leisure. Instead of Venser, you could also use Frost/Inferno Titan.
2) Zealous + Kiki gives a zero additional mana infi 3/3s strategy that's weak to spot removal (but really no more than spot removal on Witness above).
3) Kiki + Sylvan Primordial
4) Avenger of Zendikar + Glen Elendra, because...do you really need to win on the spot?
5) Kiki + Chancellor of the Spires, potentially infi turns. Really screws up graveyard strategies.
6) Tandem + Niv Firemind
7) Avenger of Zendikar + Sylvan Primordial because a pile of 3/4s is usually pretty good, as it destroying each opponent's best permament.
In response to the first post, Tolaria West is absent from the NBL section. It's essentially a 1UU tutor for Mana Crypt or Cavern/Kessig/Ancient Tomb.
When you build this deck on a budget, you become more of a Tooth and Nail deck. You still have Mystical/Tooth/Knowledge Exploitation as well as Deadeye and Palinchron. You lose some of the stronger ramp effects (Mana Crypt, Mana Drain) and utility effects (Jace TMS, Temporal Manipulation, Cryptic Command, Intuition). I don't think the loss of fetches/duals is that big a thing. You probably need Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground, but those are both in Standard right now.
I'm pretty sure that the right Tooth and Nail package is Palinchron-Deadeye(-Maelstrom) with a backup package for when Maelstrom or a suitable substitute isn't available. The primary package is so strong that I doubt it's ever in question. Craterhoof is particularly weak, Palinchron-Witness lets you recast Tooth for two additional mana finding Deadeye and Venser. Make infi mana and infi tokens, and cast Tooth infi times off Witness recursion. In theory, Venser wipes everyone else's board and gives you a counter wall to win at your leisure.
I'm going to try to fit in Palinchron, but outside of DEN, it seems weak. I am not a big fan of putting a dude in who is poor in his own right. But that is a very strong combo, so it definitely deserves some thought.
Same goes with DEN, who outside of TnN or lucking into a combo is fairly poor. He played his way out of my earlier builds, albeit builds without TnN. I'll throw him back in and give it a whirl. I have slots available for Roil and Baloths, might as well use em
Venser is another guy who got the axe in my earlier builds. How do you tend to use him, he always seemed very mediocre to me?
I like using Hoof, but I am not married to the idea. He is very strong in his own right with the number of dorks in the deck, and the times I have gotten him out (be it through hard-casting or TnN) he has ended the game. He is also another guy who is nutty if you happen to get DEN outside of a TnN.
LOL, I think my brutal hatred of DEN is clouding my judgement
DEN makes some cards like Venser and Zealous markedly better. It's never awful, but there's usually a better cascade unless you're trying to win. As to lucking into a combo...he combos with almost every critter I run.
Edit to avoid double post:
Highlighting some differences that haven't been well-discussed... Kessig Wolf Run. This card matters. You have a ramp deck and this is a great sink for all of that extra mana. Remember that you can even pump an opponent's creature to screw up combat. Removal on Wanderer is also generally a good thing because it enables us to recast it..
Tolaria West. Transmutes into utility lands, Ancient Tomb, and Mana Crypt. We run it mostly because it transmutes into Mana Crypt and therefore counts as a three mana ramp spell that gives two mana back immediately.
Cavern of Souls. Tuck is a thing and it's definitely our biggest weakness. This addresses that pretty painlessly.
Sylvan Library. Library manipulation and draw engine in one for a measly two-mana investment. Is that time that could have been spent ramping? Sure. But I'd rather ramp into known threats later than a likely fizzle earlier.
Hellkite Tyrant. Memnarch and Sharuum are known and likely contenders for tier 1 competitive generals. This gives them both fits and can even prompt a scoop.
Cyclonic Rift. Yes, it's a dead cascade, but wiping the board is insanely good. Friends who play very competitively consider this the best blue card in EDH.
Insurrection. The cascade mechanic skips right over this, preventing timing issues. This card usually prompts people to scoop. It's obscenely good and probably the best red card in EDH. We ramp and can easily support the CMC, so there's no reason not to run this.
Overgrowth. In theory, Overgrowth on a basic meets our highest test for ramp: two mana back immediately for 3 mana invested. It also sets us up to be two-for-one-ed. Can those who play it comment on how often that happens in testing?
Tier 1 strategies we fail to address:
Graveyard recursion ala Hermit Druid and/or Mimeoplasm
-We have only sparing countermagic/removal.
Animar swarm
-Mostly clone effects and Insurrection.
The reason I was asking in part is because we have an EDH league tournament and no one likes it when I play Maelstrom, but I mean, I built Maelstrom Wanderer to win. I don't play it in casual anymore, I made a semi competitive Marath deck whenever I am playing in a non tournament setting.
For the long turns, the people at our shop really like long turned games, people get kind of bent out of shape when the game ends anywhere before turn 10.
As for letting them play my other decks, well I don't really have the budget to make any decks better than Maelstrom, nor do I really think that I could. The build I use isn't quite explosive as yours so it tends to hold its own very easily against many decks that aren't packing as much power. I would honestly say out of the 10 or 12 people that attend our EDH league, I am legitimately only scared of one other person there. There have been games where I have eliminated that one person and successfully 1v10 the rest of the table without much difficulty.
Ill try that bit about playing it only to play test for fine tuning, and then swapping to a weaker deck, or playing one of theirs, but should I just play Marath for league? or tell my commander league to get good and stop being salty? I wouldn't actually say that, but its really tempting.
What decks do you have that are more consistent or better than Maelstrom? I really like the idea of over ramping into giant fatties.
Play Mayael the Anima?
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I do have her, I just like doing silly little combo's like Marath + doubling season + purphoros. If I wanted to make my Marath deck more competitive, I would probably run Mayael instead as a commander, yeah. How good can Mayael get? is it tournament competitive? Running Naya in EDH just feels like you are waiting to be blown out by counterspells and removal.
Well, probably the best deck is Thada Adel, Acquisitor. After that is either Wanderer or Jenara, Asura of War. Those flip-flop based on metagame issues, as the Jenara deck is super resilient and consistent, whereas Wanderer is far more explosive and powerful. Probably a half-tier behind is Chainer, Dementia Master, because while MBC is fun and has good high-end, it isn't fast enough to consistently have a good chance against the other decks. It is close enough to be a competitive option, but definitely needs the most help/luck. I guess Gaddock Teeg can also compete, but just because of how squirrelly his ability is, not because the deck is built particularly well. More of gimmick with a chance because he can shut down everyone at once by being such a dick. The rest of my decks are based on the new commander precons, albeit heavily modded, but they are not close to the same level. Teeg tends to realistically be on that level, but his ability can really cause some mayhem, so he is a competitive option at times.
At some point I will have links for reference (for the worthwhile ones), but I am a bit lazy as of right now. Er, the Chainer list is in my sig, although not fully up to date.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I actually happen to think, personally, that Marath is much stronger than Mayael. Mayael lends itself to certain combo wins like Palinchron and enables blue, but Marath is a much stronger card in a vacuum, and doesn't create as many deck building paradoxes. Such as: in Mayael you want lots of small guys to get the engine going, lots of big guys as pay off, and the ability to draw lots of cards to keep the steam rolling. That is ridiculously hard to balance while trying to also include the aspects that blue offers that help the deck. Imo neither one has any business trying to be tier 1 competitive, but, like all commanders you can build a good deck around them if you have the inspiration and will to do so.
Er, not to fully derail the Maelstrom Wanderer conversation, though
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Holy cow, I entirely thought of Animar.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
That makes a whole lot of sense. I was thinking to myself, "am I missing something here, does this dude know something I don't".
Cards that will eventually be cut: Roil Elemental, Rampaging Baloths, Boundless Realms, and in all likelihood Mana Drain.
Cards that will eventually be added: Bribery, Blatant Thievery, Fabricate, possibly Exploration, and really eventually Capture of Jingzhou.
Commentary: Kiki didn't do nearly enough. I have too few creatures I want to copy. I already instantly win off of TnN with Craterhoof/Avenger, both of whom have independently tested much stronger than Kiki or Zealous Conscripts. Conscripts absolutely never mattered without Kiki, and Kiki wasn't useful enough on his own. On the other hand, because of my man-ramp plan, Craterhoof is amazing, and Avenger is very good by himself (good Natural Order target if I get NO in the early game). The things that stop Avenger/Hoof also stop Kiki/Conscripts.
Boundless Realms was a place holder the whole time. Never meant to make the final deck. Baloths and Roil are too fragile/inconsistent (although I have not tested them a ton).
Mana Drain... it's good if I draw it early and have :symu::symu: open on turn two, no other turn two plays, and something to do with the mana afterward (ideally cast Wanderer, but typically not the case). It forces me into the wrong direction early, pushing for :symu::symu: early instead of :symg::symg:. It will very likely be the last of all of the cards on the chopping block to be cut, but it does not seem to be good enough for the optimized version. Additionally, it has been pointed out to me that it is in fact a horrible cascade rather than simply mediocre-to-poor, as it gives you the mana on your next main phase, not your next pre-combat main phase. So if we cast Wanderer main phase one like we should (haste matters), we cannot recast him with the drain mana.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I do love a good Tolkien reference, though.
Anyway, I'm looking for ways to spice up my OP and generate some new discussion/buzz. What would you guys like to see me add to this page, how would you like me to change or improve my formatting, or what other suggestions might the people of the forums have for me?
I want to include a segment with some of the different suites and packages, allowing people to see both how I am using certain cards synergistically, as well as showing how to easily cut a whole group of cards at once if you don't like to do things the exact same way I do. I also plan to add a short guide on how to play the deck in different situations, mulligans, and how we deal with different strategies; what game states make certain cards more important, and little tricks to get past those tough decks that may be really posing troubles for us. For a segment like that, however, I am more than happy to listen to suggestions for certain decks that are trouble, as well as good ways to overcome the adversity we face from them. I can only draw from my experience, and would love any suggestions or feedback.
I should have a good financial window to snag a lot of the remaining cards I plan to run (at least Bribery, Blatant Thievery, Fabricate, and Arcanis the Omnipotent, and possibly Exploration, which I am not 100% sold on (poor cascade), but has plenty of upside.
This also seems like a good time to thank everyone for their contributions so far, very notably Tazriel and ambivalentduck. I have gotten a lot of great suggestions, and am finally getting a chance to test and implement them. Very exciting!!
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
How is the deck w.o fetches? I have 4/8 of them :\ Also, Mana Crypts/Mana Drain/ The oldschool duals are a bit out of my reach.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Yes, fetches and duals help, but Ruination/Blood Moon/etc can make up for losing them.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Makes sense.
I have multiples of the zend fetches, as I used to play RUG when it was in standard. I'd be willing to trade a few of those for a mana crypt if I needed to.
Thanks for the input
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
So, the question that remains is whether or not in your meta it is worth playing a deck that "goes off" on turn 5-6 consistently. If that is too slow, I wouldn't bother, because this deck is not good at winning wars of attrition. But even that being said, we have stripped it down from it's pricier cards, and the ones that are still a bit more costly are just good cards to have in general.
As far as any specific card swaps, or specific cards you can't/don't want to get, I'm more than happy to address those specifically, but I have a hard time guessing what people do and don't have.
Also, I would try to get a copy of the shock lands, because they are very solid with the search for "forest" cards, but even these are not necessary. But you may also have to broaden your land ramp spells to accommodate the increasing difficulty in getting your colors down in time (I don't anticipate that being much of a problem, but I didn't start with a budget version and work my way up, so I have not experienced putting together this deck from ground up)
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
The challenging part is trying to figure out what to include when the sword package+temporal manipulation + Natural Order is dropped.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I was able to keep most of the ramp and other parts of the deck. I do miss a bunch of the fetches.
I don't play competitively anymore, so if it's reliable enough to have some fun by turn 5~6, that's fine with me.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
I'd have to test it. First impression: it stocks the graveyard, which can get ugly against reanimator decks. It also loads up everyone's hand with use-it-or-lose-it instant-speed removal. Since most of your board development is lands, that actually gives them ammunition to wreck one another's boards with.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Natural Order works much better in my build because of the man-ramp plan. It is still possible to get a dud hit off of it, but not very likely. Additionally, we can simply hardcast is on t3 for Sylvan Primordial, which more than makes up for the unlikely scenario of whiffing on it off of a cascade. That is how my testing has shown so far, at least.
I have not looked into it yet. Partially because I only own one, and it is in my Chainer deck. The bigger issue is that I really want effects that happen the turn they hit play. It is unlikely that we will be activating the jar that turn if we cascade into it (rare to have enough mana to effectively utilize it in that regard) or if we cast it from hand. The effect is unreal. Drawing a fresh hand with untapped mana is nutty nutty nutty. So I am very open to listening to anyone else's testing results with it. But I do not have any immediate plans to acquire another one to test for this deck.
Lmao, as for the rocks (and I do run them), I have never seen a deck that draws out its opponents Oblivion Stones as frequently as Wanderer. Everyone goes for their stones all the time (and I play against Thada, so she gets her stones, my opponents stones, my stone... UGH), so my rock-based ramping rarely lives longer than my man-based ramping.
Edit:
That was my exact goal in the budget list. I think you will find it does nasty, nasty things by 5-6, essentially every game. Still some t3, t4 potential, just not as much. At some point I think I will add an order of priorities for the more expensive cards, as people who enjoy the budget version look to potentially build toward a non-budget version.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Also, I updated the OP to include a Packages spoiler that briefly detail some of the different packages we run or can run, and why certain cards do or do not belong within the confines of those particular packages.
One last thing, the Card Choices section has now been spoilered to avoid too much scrolling on the OP. Good or bad? Feedback valued.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the views and the commentary, keep letting me know why I'm awesome, why I suck, and why your versions are better. That's how we all keep getting better 'round here. Peace, folks, have a good one
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Am I allowed to tell you I love you? That's exactly what I was looking for!
Again, AMAZING job with all of this work. Well done.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
When you build this deck on a budget, you become more of a Tooth and Nail deck. You still have Mystical/Tooth/Knowledge Exploitation as well as Deadeye and Palinchron. You lose some of the stronger ramp effects (Mana Crypt, Mana Drain) and utility effects (Jace TMS, Temporal Manipulation, Cryptic Command, Intuition). I don't think the loss of fetches/duals is that big a thing. You probably need Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground, but those are both in Standard right now.
I'm pretty sure that the right Tooth and Nail package is Palinchron-Deadeye(-Maelstrom) with a backup package for when Maelstrom or a suitable substitute isn't available. The primary package is so strong that I doubt it's ever in question. Craterhoof is particularly weak to spot removal. Other options include:
1) Palinchron-Witness to let you recast Tooth for two additional mana finding Deadeye and Venser. For yet another two mana, you make infi mana and infi tokens, and cast Tooth infi times off Witness recursion. In theory, Venser wipes everyone else's board and gives you a counter wall to win at your leisure. Instead of Venser, you could also use Frost/Inferno Titan.
2) Zealous + Kiki gives a zero additional mana infi 3/3s strategy that's weak to spot removal (but really no more than spot removal on Witness above).
3) Kiki + Sylvan Primordial
4) Avenger of Zendikar + Glen Elendra, because...do you really need to win on the spot?
5) Kiki + Chancellor of the Spires, potentially infi turns. Really screws up graveyard strategies.
6) Tandem + Niv Firemind
7) Avenger of Zendikar + Sylvan Primordial because a pile of 3/4s is usually pretty good, as it destroying each opponent's best permament.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I'm going to try to fit in Palinchron, but outside of DEN, it seems weak. I am not a big fan of putting a dude in who is poor in his own right. But that is a very strong combo, so it definitely deserves some thought.
Same goes with DEN, who outside of TnN or lucking into a combo is fairly poor. He played his way out of my earlier builds, albeit builds without TnN. I'll throw him back in and give it a whirl. I have slots available for Roil and Baloths, might as well use em
Venser is another guy who got the axe in my earlier builds. How do you tend to use him, he always seemed very mediocre to me?
I like using Hoof, but I am not married to the idea. He is very strong in his own right with the number of dorks in the deck, and the times I have gotten him out (be it through hard-casting or TnN) he has ended the game. He is also another guy who is nutty if you happen to get DEN outside of a TnN.
LOL, I think my brutal hatred of DEN is clouding my judgement
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Edit to avoid double post:
Highlighting some differences that haven't been well-discussed...
Kessig Wolf Run. This card matters. You have a ramp deck and this is a great sink for all of that extra mana. Remember that you can even pump an opponent's creature to screw up combat. Removal on Wanderer is also generally a good thing because it enables us to recast it..
Tolaria West. Transmutes into utility lands, Ancient Tomb, and Mana Crypt. We run it mostly because it transmutes into Mana Crypt and therefore counts as a three mana ramp spell that gives two mana back immediately.
Cavern of Souls. Tuck is a thing and it's definitely our biggest weakness. This addresses that pretty painlessly.
Sylvan Library. Library manipulation and draw engine in one for a measly two-mana investment. Is that time that could have been spent ramping? Sure. But I'd rather ramp into known threats later than a likely fizzle earlier.
Hellkite Tyrant. Memnarch and Sharuum are known and likely contenders for tier 1 competitive generals. This gives them both fits and can even prompt a scoop.
Cyclonic Rift. Yes, it's a dead cascade, but wiping the board is insanely good. Friends who play very competitively consider this the best blue card in EDH.
Insurrection. The cascade mechanic skips right over this, preventing timing issues. This card usually prompts people to scoop. It's obscenely good and probably the best red card in EDH. We ramp and can easily support the CMC, so there's no reason not to run this.
Overgrowth. In theory, Overgrowth on a basic meets our highest test for ramp: two mana back immediately for 3 mana invested. It also sets us up to be two-for-one-ed. Can those who play it comment on how often that happens in testing?
Tier 1 strategies we fail to address:
Graveyard recursion ala Hermit Druid and/or Mimeoplasm
-We have only sparing countermagic/removal.
Animar swarm
-Mostly clone effects and Insurrection.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420