On the tango lands, as I've said, they're a user preference. You'll notice, people are pretty evenly split on them. I have no plans to revert to the check lands, but you're absolutely free to prefer them to the tango lands.
I like the Battle Lands. Especially since I use Nissa, Worldwaker. She gets dumb with ramp.
Have you tried Dictate of Karametra in that slot? It's been in my maybeboard for a while.
Yes, and unfortunately it didn't work in the kind of deck I run. I don't have the combo potential to pull a win off it as frequently as I needed to (I was relying waaaaay to much on Grand Abolisher to make it work), and even if we wanted to, we're not in the right colors to lock down other players to prevent them from really benefiting it if we can't win.
Long story short, it's too Sony for my tastes and I don't have the right kind of deck to capitalize on it.
On the tango lands, as I've said, they're a user preference. You'll notice, people are pretty evenly split on them. I have no plans to revert to the check lands, but you're absolutely free to prefer them to the tango lands.
I like the Battle Lands. Especially since I use Nissa, Worldwaker. She gets dumb with ramp.
As you'll notice, it's a pretty divided issue. I've really enjoyed being able to find them with basic land type matters cards, and they're rarely an inconvenience, but a lot of people like the security the check lands provide.
Nice primer! I too play Marath, so I dropped in to ask a question: I run Mirari's Wake and fear being unable to send Marath back to the command zone due to the anthem effect. I like being able to send Marath back to the command zone to recharge and grow! Without counters and Mirari's Wake on the field, Marath just turns into a 1/1 with no relevant abilities. Have you encountered any circumstances where this has been an issue? I know that it's a very specific circumstance but I'm just curious.
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EDH WURRuhan of the Fomori[Primer] | WGR Marath, Will of the Wild | WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician | WUB Sharuum, the Hegemon | WBGR Tymna the Weaver / Tana, the Bloodsower | BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots | BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Nice primer! I too play Marath, so I dropped in to ask a question: I run Mirari's Wake and fear being unable to send Marath back to the command zone due to the anthem effect. I like being able to send Marath back to the command zone to recharge and grow! Without counters and Mirari's Wake on the field, Marath just turns into a 1/1 with no relevant abilities. Have you encountered any circumstances where this has been an issue? I know that it's a very specific circumstance but I'm just curious.
You can use Marath's ability to deal damage to himself, so you can use one activation to put a point of damage on him so that he dies, despite the anthem.
Edit: Typically, I play around leaving enough mana up to kill Marath by removing half of his counters to deal damage, so I've actually never ran in to a situation where I couldn't kill him even with an anthem. Even if someone tried to remove the counters for you, all it takes is one point of damage to get around Mirari and have him die.
Nice primer! I too play Marath, so I dropped in to ask a question: I run Mirari's Wake and fear being unable to send Marath back to the command zone due to the anthem effect. I like being able to send Marath back to the command zone to recharge and grow! Without counters and Mirari's Wake on the field, Marath just turns into a 1/1 with no relevant abilities. Have you encountered any circumstances where this has been an issue? I know that it's a very specific circumstance but I'm just curious.
That's a problem solved by an appropriate number of sacrifice outlets and removal spells. In the rare situation where you're stuck with a marath on the board, you could use your own removal, or better sacrifice it to the likes of Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar.
Small heads up on what I've been doing, because I'm not quite ready for an update yet. I've been testing the following changes (in no particular order):
I haven't really seen enough of the cards one way or another to make the changes official, but I've liked them so far. I did test Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, and while all of her abilities are good for this deck in theory, none of them outside of her ultimate are particularly impactful, so I don't think I'll be adding her.
I agree. Birds of Paradise are very strong in the opening hand but being bad topdecks later in the game is the reason why many green decks don't run them. In Marath however they really shine.
With the commander as a threedrop there is always at least one possibility to capitalize on the very early mana boost. Cards like Evolutionary Leap and Skullclamp help that their value doesn't decrease in the mid to lategame and I found flying to be very relevant with a commander that can put counters on creatures. This deck (at least my version) can sometimes be a bit weak to flyers and having a 5/6 BoP strongly discourages all those Angels, Dragons and Demons coming at my face.
I could see Wood Elves or Kodama's Reach being cut for those.
Cards like Evolutionary Leap and Skullclamp help that their value doesn't decrease in the mid to lategame and I found flying to be very relevant with a commander that can put counters on creatures.
I should note, that I almost never put counters on other creatures aside from Marath, as spot removal is just as common (if not more common) than board wipes. That birds is clampable is really it's only saving grace in my eyes, as mana dorks (going off of my other decks) suffer the same problems I had with Dryad Arbor, in that I can't keep them alive and/or in play, and that can slow me down if I do end up needing the mana for colors, or just the ramp in general. I've run birds in an Animar list, because that deck was trying to get off the ground and combo out as quickly as possible, and it had to have Animar in play as early as possible to do so. This deck, because I've put more in to control, is much slower and while a turn 2 Marath is nice, it isn't as critical to my game plan. This would obviously change if I were running a more combo based build.
The arguments you bring are exactly why I shied away from mana dorks in Commander for a long time. However I discovered that the t1 bird produces such a tempo advantage, that it doesn't matter too much if it gets wiped away a few turns later because by then,there's a good chance that you have turned this tempo advantage into more lands and cards. The difference to Dryad Arbor is that the birds don't cost you a landdrop (except, of course, if you get the arbor form GSZ) and thus cost less tempo if they get removed. The fact that they can produce all colors also makes them much better.
I also almost never pump counters on creatures, but I found it worth it to put them on small flyers. If they get removed by a Path or Terminate, you gotta be psyched that they had to use it on a bird!
But in the end it comes down to personal preference and if you feel that Birds of Paradise are not worth it, I can certainly understand that.
Why not opal palace? It has great synergy with marath.
It's more of a trap card for Marath players. It certainly still works well with him, but you slow yourself down a lot.
As far as my particular list goes, it's competing for a colorless slot, so it would be replacing another colorless card, as I've already stretched my nonbasic count. It mostly comes down between it and Gavony Township, and I prefer Township because this deck goes wide more often than trying to go tall, while still providing extra counters for Marath.
The arguments you bring are exactly why I shied away from mana dorks in Commander for a long time. However I discovered that the t1 bird produces such a tempo advantage, that it doesn't matter too much if it gets wiped away a few turns later because by then,there's a good chance that you have turned this tempo advantage into more lands and cards.
Keep in mind that I'm not against dorks as far as commander as a whole goes. I've run birds in other decks (even one currently), and I do have and elves deck that they are pretty central too. That said, getting off of the ground early on isn't where this deck has issues with mana. It's later where I want the extra lands, long after the point where birds has likely been dealt with.
But, like I said, there are certainly Marath lists that I can see it being much more essential in (competitive and/or combo lists, for example), and it's not a bad card so you could make an argue for preference in any Marath deck.
I have actually liked Opal Palace a lot in my build, 5 mana is a lot to spend to justify in Gavony Township at times, especially if your board isn't that wide yet, or if you have counter doublers out like Hardened Scales, where you can 1:1 mana to counters on Marath or anything else. Opal Palace on the other hand is +1 to the mana cost of your Commander, for a fair bonus. Even on the first cast, having a 4/4 marath for 4 can be useful. As you go further into the game, getting +2, or +3 counters for 1 mana is nice. Also, it can filter your mana in extreme circumstances, and I have filtered excess sol ring mana into colored before, even for non-commander uses. Further, it helps fix the Commander cost in situations where you keep 2 color hands.
That all said, the fact that Opal Palace can only be used on your Commander, and can only be used on those times you need to recast your commander... well, that's a lot of limitations during the game...
Gavony on the other hand can be held up for an opponent's turn, leaving mana to work with, and has greater utility overall.
I specifically run Gavony Township because it has more opportunities beyond just Marath, especially when my list has a token theme.
I look at Opal Palace as a trap not because it's not useful, but because a lot of people look at it, and add it without taking the time to consider if it's limited use and the delay are worth it for their deck composition (it can only be used on Marath, you need to be frequently casting him, etc.).
I'm cutting two of the slowest (and most expensive) token generators in favor of some added utility cards. I've really liked Verdant Confluence, and it's flexibility guarantees that it's not going to be a dead draw. I'm also finally adding the original Garruk in to the list because in addition to having some of the more expensive cards such as Gaea's Cradle that I can use with him now, I also have moved more from a straight token theme to more of a control based list, and he fits that theme quite nicely.
I've mentioned potentially adding Mina and Denn, Wildborn and Xenagos, God of Revels but I haven't really decided on cuts that I'm comfortable with yet, and in the case of Mina and Denn, I'm not sure if they're the right fit for this list.
I'll vouch that Mina & denn are definitely nuts with other additional land drop effects and megalands like cradle & nykthos.
I do run them as the commander of my elf tribal deck, so I know that they can be bonkers, I just haven't really seen them outside of late into a game yet. ^.^
I like Mina and Denn a lot with Cradle. Assemble the legion is a touch on the slow side, but it typically becomes a monster late game. I tend to play multiplayer games with at least 4 people, and it's an amazing card if left unchecked.
I haven't used Garruk Wildspeaker, but given the obvious synergy with Cradle, I'll be including him. I used to run Rith, the Awakener. Let him go because he seemed slow/always ate a path. I miss him, going to have to acquire one.
My list is lower on average CMC's - running a few things like Dualcaster Mage and Imperial Recruiter.
With so many CIP abilities, I've found Eldrazi Displacer to be pretty darn fantastic for those and innumerable other purposes.
I like Mina and Denn a lot with Cradle. Assemble the legion is a touch on the slow side, but it typically becomes a monster late game. I tend to play multiplayer games with at least 4 people, and it's an amazing card if left unchecked.
I haven't used Garruk Wildspeaker, but given the obvious synergy with Cradle, I'll be including him. I used to run Rith, the Awakener. Let him go because he seemed slow/always ate a path. I miss him, going to have to acquire one.
There was a debate within the last page or two about Assemble, and I decided that it would be a good fit to cut for something more versatile (and quicker), like Garruk Wildspeaker.
I also used to run Rith, but cut him for being too slow and too conditional (needing to actually connect with someone, pay mana, and have a certain number of green permanents in play) on top of a high casting cost. I do like him though, and Vash9177 has a pretty good primer for the dragon.
My list is lower on average CMC's - running a few things like Dualcaster Mage and Imperial Recruiter.
With so many CIP abilities, I've found Eldrazi Displacer to be pretty darn fantastic for those and innumerable other purposes.
I don't run as many ETB effects as I used to, but it's definitely a good add in an ETB based toolbox varient.
What is the opinion on Gisela, Blade of the Goldnight? In addition skewing any kind of damage race decidedly in our favor, she doubles Marath's pinging ability as well as Purophoros' triggers. Besides the high cmc, are there any other deterrences to play the card?
What is the opinion on Gisela, Blade of the Goldnight? In addition skewing any kind of damage race decidedly in our favor, she doubles Marath's pinging ability as well as Purophoros' triggers. Besides the high cmc, are there any other deterrences to play the card?
She can potentially backfire if you need to kill someone thing with Marath on your side of the field (like preventing something like himself or Linvala from being stolen, or Insurrection type effects).
Otherwise, it largely depends on how much your deck relies on damage. Most combo decks won't care about her at all, but a burn or primarily aggro variant might want the extra damage.
I like the Battle Lands. Especially since I use Nissa, Worldwaker. She gets dumb with ramp.
Long story short, it's too Sony for my tastes and I don't have the right kind of deck to capitalize on it.
As you'll notice, it's a pretty divided issue. I've really enjoyed being able to find them with basic land type matters cards, and they're rarely an inconvenience, but a lot of people like the security the check lands provide.
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Edit: Typically, I play around leaving enough mana up to kill Marath by removing half of his counters to deal damage, so I've actually never ran in to a situation where I couldn't kill him even with an anthem. Even if someone tried to remove the counters for you, all it takes is one point of damage to get around Mirari and have him die.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Dragon Broodmother ---> Verdant Confluence
Assemble the Legion ---> Xenagos, God of Revels/Garruk Wildspeaker
Trostani, Voice of Selesnya ---> Mina and Denn, Wildborn
I haven't really seen enough of the cards one way or another to make the changes official, but I've liked them so far. I did test Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, and while all of her abilities are good for this deck in theory, none of them outside of her ultimate are particularly impactful, so I don't think I'll be adding her.
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With the commander as a threedrop there is always at least one possibility to capitalize on the very early mana boost. Cards like Evolutionary Leap and Skullclamp help that their value doesn't decrease in the mid to lategame and I found flying to be very relevant with a commander that can put counters on creatures. This deck (at least my version) can sometimes be a bit weak to flyers and having a 5/6 BoP strongly discourages all those Angels, Dragons and Demons coming at my face.
I could see Wood Elves or Kodama's Reach being cut for those.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
I would be looking at something like Secure the Wastes as a cut, because I prefer land ramp to creature ramp.
I'm not opposed to trying it as a card, but it does seem like it will suffer the same problems as Arbor did.
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I also almost never pump counters on creatures, but I found it worth it to put them on small flyers. If they get removed by a Path or Terminate, you gotta be psyched that they had to use it on a bird!
But in the end it comes down to personal preference and if you feel that Birds of Paradise are not worth it, I can certainly understand that.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
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UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
As far as my particular list goes, it's competing for a colorless slot, so it would be replacing another colorless card, as I've already stretched my nonbasic count. It mostly comes down between it and Gavony Township, and I prefer Township because this deck goes wide more often than trying to go tall, while still providing extra counters for Marath.
Keep in mind that I'm not against dorks as far as commander as a whole goes. I've run birds in other decks (even one currently), and I do have and elves deck that they are pretty central too. That said, getting off of the ground early on isn't where this deck has issues with mana. It's later where I want the extra lands, long after the point where birds has likely been dealt with.
But, like I said, there are certainly Marath lists that I can see it being much more essential in (competitive and/or combo lists, for example), and it's not a bad card so you could make an argue for preference in any Marath deck.
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That all said, the fact that Opal Palace can only be used on your Commander, and can only be used on those times you need to recast your commander... well, that's a lot of limitations during the game...
Gavony on the other hand can be held up for an opponent's turn, leaving mana to work with, and has greater utility overall.
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I look at Opal Palace as a trap not because it's not useful, but because a lot of people look at it, and add it without taking the time to consider if it's limited use and the delay are worth it for their deck composition (it can only be used on Marath, you need to be frequently casting him, etc.).
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Out
Assemble the Legion
Dragon Broodmother
In
Garruk Wildspeaker
Verdant Confluence
I'm cutting two of the slowest (and most expensive) token generators in favor of some added utility cards. I've really liked Verdant Confluence, and it's flexibility guarantees that it's not going to be a dead draw. I'm also finally adding the original Garruk in to the list because in addition to having some of the more expensive cards such as Gaea's Cradle that I can use with him now, I also have moved more from a straight token theme to more of a control based list, and he fits that theme quite nicely.
I've mentioned potentially adding Mina and Denn, Wildborn and Xenagos, God of Revels but I haven't really decided on cuts that I'm comfortable with yet, and in the case of Mina and Denn, I'm not sure if they're the right fit for this list.
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I haven't used Garruk Wildspeaker, but given the obvious synergy with Cradle, I'll be including him. I used to run Rith, the Awakener. Let him go because he seemed slow/always ate a path. I miss him, going to have to acquire one.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
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UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
With so many CIP abilities, I've found Eldrazi Displacer to be pretty darn fantastic for those and innumerable other purposes.
I also used to run Rith, but cut him for being too slow and too conditional (needing to actually connect with someone, pay mana, and have a certain number of green permanents in play) on top of a high casting cost. I do like him though, and Vash9177 has a pretty good primer for the dragon.
Fair points, both of you on Mina and Denn, I'll see what I'm comfortable cutting.
The plus side of Craterhoof is that even if they exile him, the damage has been done.
I don't run as many ETB effects as I used to, but it's definitely a good add in an ETB based toolbox varient.
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What is the opinion on Gisela, Blade of the Goldnight? In addition skewing any kind of damage race decidedly in our favor, she doubles Marath's pinging ability as well as Purophoros' triggers. Besides the high cmc, are there any other deterrences to play the card?
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
Otherwise, it largely depends on how much your deck relies on damage. Most combo decks won't care about her at all, but a burn or primarily aggro variant might want the extra damage.
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