Derevi simply isn't going to race Wanderer or Krenko without disrupting them. If you want to ramp, this is the wrong general. We're actually markedly less capable of abusing Sol Ring and Mana Crypt than a deck with a greater concentration of high CMC, splashy spells. Again, see Derevi's ban in duel commander. What I've seen in the 1v1 lists (and why Derevi got banned in duel commander) is that they can lock the opponent out and do so very early on.
I don't think the list I've posted nails that formula, but the virtual card advantage that can come from the word "can't" is massive. Many decks simply cannot function or even do anything on three lands. Ie. Maelstrom Wanderer, Prossh, Marath, and Azusa are dead in the water.
It seems like the challenge of building the "optimal" Derevi deck is having enough locks pieces, but not so many that they'll be redundant dead draws, that you're the only one playing Magic. Because you can't always lock before your opponents explode, you also need reset switches, proactive answers, and the ability to combo out quickly when necessary too.
Derevi simply isn't going to race Wanderer or Krenko without disrupting them. If you want to ramp, this is the wrong general. We're actually markedly less capable of abusing Sol Ring and Mana Crypt than a deck with a greater concentration of high CMC, splashy spells. Again, see Derevi's ban in duel commander. What I've seen in the 1v1 lists (and why Derevi got banned in duel commander) is that they can lock the opponent out and do so very early on.
I don't think the list I've posted nails that formula, but the virtual card advantage that can come from the word "can't" is massive. Many decks simply cannot function or even do anything on three lands. Ie. Maelstrom Wanderer, Prossh, Marath, and Azusa are dead in the water.
It seems like the challenge of building the "optimal" Derevi deck is having enough locks pieces, but not so many that they'll be redundant dead draws, that you're the only one playing Magic. Because you can't always lock before your opponents explode, you also need reset switches, proactive answers, and the ability to combo out quickly when necessary too.
There are many ways to build Derevi. But at its core it is a tempo deck. Take a look at Jos' list a little way up. It builds an insane amount of early game board presence. Much faster than anything I've ever seen. Derevi abuses anything that taps, so stuff that taps for more than 1 mana: Karoo lands, mana rocks, or you name them, become enablers for us to reach our high cc splashly spells. My enablers of choice are: Bloom Tender, Somberwald Sage, Gilded Lotus, Gaea's Cradle, and Nykthos. But every build has their own.
To be precise Derevi doesn't completely lock people out - it soft-locks the table and slows opponents down. A complete lock consists of Loxodon Gatekeeper/Kismet/Frozen Aether with Stasis and Heliod/Reconnaissance in play. Getting all 3 pieces in play together is extremely difficult and not worth the effort imo. Slowing opponents is often the equivalent of crippling them when we have as many draw and tutors as we carry to get to our finisher.
I think the optimal Derevi deck looks something close to Jos' list with a bit more emphasis on a finisher. It'll have the fastest start in 9/10 games and by turn 4 look to finish the table
Jos was a bit disruption light. It's not clear to me that he plays in a meta with Wanderer/Animar/Krenko/Sharuum. If you haven't stopped them from winning by turn 3-4, one of them has won.
Yeah, it doesn't run many answers. However, what it does is impose its will on the table and makes the table answer him. My meta is combo-heavy and I've found disruption and instant speed answers are required. So I do carry quite a bit of extra stuff to slow opponents down.
Slowly moving towards more of an aggressive start. Picked up a Slithermuse Foil and am cutting Ephara. Ephara is just too slow. By the time I cast her most of my creatures are on the table. Slithermuse can replace the cards I've dropped and makes more sense
The problem with Norn is that he's an insanely effective Bribery target. I'm thinking Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder is the best bet for pump: infi pump and infi life. You only lose to general damage and decking.
I'm pretty sure a Stasis-oriented build is the best option: Stasis + vigilance effect/double strike/Geist of St Traft + Derevi = lock. Within that theme, the problem is that you first have to stop everyone else from going off. And like you said, your meta doesn't include the blazing-fast combo generals. Derevi's ability to come out of the command zone at instant speed with no counter response was stupid good in 1v1 because it meant that your countermagic could stall your opponent, but they couldn't meaningfully interact with you. In multiplayer, you can't counter everything and an elf swarm won't deal the 60ish damage you need to win the game. By contrast, it might easily have dealt the 30 to win a French duel.
Because you can't deal enough damage quickly enough (or maybe you just need a Beastmaster Ascension-like effect), you have to combo out or lock everyone else out. Some people in this thread have noticed that with enough card advantage, you can dork swarm and counter what needs to be countered. The issue is that you're really limited to the same tools as everyone else. In other words, when it works, it'll really work, but otherwise it's precarious. While dork swarming can feed an ever-growing dork swarm via Coastal Piracy/Edric/Bident, it implies committing to flooding the board in a way that can get you singled out as an archenemy.
So multiplayer Derevi has this fundamental bifurcation between control and swarm. If you try to split the difference, you end up with an awful deck. Swarm Derevi wants to turn attack steps into cards and mana in a self-feeding way. Combo-control Derevi wants to turn other people's untap steps into as little as possible. While a few cards overlap, the combo-control version needs vigilance-like effects to sustain Stasis and requires very different tutoring to be able to consistently find it. Why Stasis over Swarm? Because Swarm doesn't beat Maelstrom Wanderer/Krenko/etc. It can't race a turn 4 win. Even if you assume there's a turn 5...not happening. It just doesn't have an insta-win combo or exponential growth. If you want Tooth and Nail for Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder, that's probably the closest you can get to an insta-win. Throw in some more Rogues and you can Knowledge Exploitation for it instead.
I guess my disagreement is based on how one might define "faster." Derevi makes a lot of colored mana and can dump a weenie swarm onto the table in the first few turns and leverage Edric/Piracy effects to keep the swarm coming. The swarm is linear, though, not exponential. You also have to defend an obvious, early, and growing threat against an entire table's sweepers.
As to the god turn, it's saccing Academy Rector to Birthing Pod to get Stasis and Prophet of Kruphix. You untap, you tap people down, nobody else gets to untap. Drawing a bunch of cards makes victory likely, but it's no guarantee.
The two strategies (swarm and combo) have a lot in common, though. In particular, they optimally fall back on one-another. Ie. Stasis to beat pillow fort, swarm to beat "pure" control. Combo > Aggro > Control > Combo. Wanderer, Animar, Prossh, Mimeoplasm, and Krenko can play aggro and combo. Sharuum and Zur can play combo and control. 5C Druid is usually "pure" combo. Pure aggro and pure control tend to fair poorly if only because they're unreliable against likely board states. Maybe Karador could be called aggro-control, but it's not tier 1. The 1v1 Derevi build is certainly aggro-control and translates horribly to multiplayer. Spell Pierce and its cousins just lose too much against a table with more than 30 life combined. So where reactive control (counterspells, instant speed removal) are great against a lone opponent, multiplayer just presents too many threats per turn to stop them all. Worse, there are no wrong threats (sort of...I'm looking at you Quarum Trench Gnomes), there are plenty of wrong answers.
There's a sweet spot to find between accelerators needed for a fast start and card quality to remain competitive if plan A fails. And a lot of times I do happen to see plan A fail. Basically the question is how many accelerators can we get away with before they become a noticeable factor in our loss rate. And that is highly meta dependent.
So I played just 1 game with Derevi last Sat against Derevi, Prosh, and Zur. It was quite a long game with denial/lock pieces almost constantly in play. Both Derevi decks got turn 2 Bloom Tenders in play but Zur put out Contamination. I played Birthing Pod fetching Aven Mindcensor out to slow opponents down. Not long later I put out Gilded Lotus and Winter Orb. Derevi got tucked. Then the other Derevi took over the game with Prophet of Kruphix in conjunction with my Winter Orb. He played Ephara, Voidmage Prodigy, and Glen Elendra Archmage. Was 3 vs 1 at that point and after we cleared his board he played Stasis and Nature's Will. Luckily he had no creatures besides enchantment Ephara. Zur played Necro but his life became a factor and Derevi focused on and soon successfully took him out. Before he died Zur's Chain of Vapor did a lot of work. I played my Orb got out Gilded Lotus, Somberwald, Aven Mindcensor, and Captain Sisay over the next 2 turns. The Orb crippled Derevi. He tutored for a Gilded Drake and played it taking my Somberwald. I tutored for Elesh Norn and that was game for Derevi. Prosh succumbed later. Was a 2 hour game. Ephara was a large factor in 2 of our games that evening. She's going in. Also made some other changes
Honestly, two Derevi decks at the table makes the game 1v1 because there will always be Stasis pieces in play.
Lol, Zur remarked similarly. He said each Derevi deck feeds off the other. Swapped out Derevi for Azusa after that.
Stealing is better than clone effects after the legend rule change. Sower of Temptation and Roil Elemental are possibilities I'm looking at. I'm testing out Mentor of the Meek but so far it looks unimpressive. I think I'd rather have one of those 2, Timetwister, or Terastodon. Slots are precious now. Not much room to play with
I didn't have much success with tax effects in the past. And we need our artifacts. Archangel of Thune + Spike feeder doesn't stop triggers which activate on attacking, like Zur for example. It does stop Craterhoof but there are a lot of things it doesn't.
Edit: oops I read Spike Feeder wrong. I can see the combo but the two creatures aren't too useful outside of being on the field together. Spike feeder is really bad by itself
Archangel pumps all of your critters whenever it attacks or blocks, no small thing. Spike Feeder has some cute combat tricks, too. The ability to move counters also feeds Glen Elendra and can make general damage from Derevi more of a threat.
Archangel pumps all of your critters whenever it attacks or blocks, no small thing. Spike Feeder has some cute combat tricks, too. The ability to move counters also feeds Glen Elendra and can make general damage from Derevi more of a threat.
That's more for a list built around abusing tokens or counters. You would maybe include Felidar Sovereign, Serra Ascendant, Master Biomancer, Woodfall Primus, Avenger, sac outlets, etc. It's a poor fit here. You've got to take into consideration whether or not a card can help you reach the goal you are trying to achieve. Our win conditions are lockdown or combo. Making attackers infinitely big is not needed. Also it can be more easily done with Mirror Entity in conjuction with Deadeye and Bloom Tender or Gilded Lotus or Nykthos without having to add 2 extra cards.
The cost here is 2 extra card slots to be freed up. Whereas Mirror would just cost 1 slot. In addition Archangel + Spike feeder is really slow to assemble and inferior in both flexibility and speed to Deadeye Navigator. The basic plan here is tutor for Bloom Tender, play Derevi -> options. If we have a T1 elf and Deadeye in hand we can go infinite as early as T3. But normally we don't and we just unload our hand in the next 2 turns. Mirror Entity, Archangel, Spike Feeder would all be very mediocre here.
Surprisingly Sakura-Tribe Scout has tested quite well. With 4 land opening hands we can usually get out Derevi turn 2 and go into turn 3 with 4 lands in play and 2 potential attackers. Might have to pick up Skyshroud Ranger too. Being able to refill our hand becomes more important. Maybe Stroke of Genius for that and to assist in a combo finish
They're decent in aggro style Derevi. I gravitate toward strategies which can kill off the table in one turn so no one has to wait for a new game to start. I call it killing the table humanely.
Is there any reason you would chose not to run blue sun zenith instead of Stroke? I use Blue Sun to fill my hand prior to comboing, and then usually use it to kill everyone off after the combo.
But, I also play in a group that also has a Zur deck that actively uses Rest in Peace, so I usually cannot recur stroke with Eternal Witness either.
Rest in Peace would certainly cause problems. The reason for Stroke is its just one blue. When I go infinite 4/5 times I have Bloom Tender with Deadeye. Which means not enough blue mana, only infinite green and white. With Stroke (I usually have at least 1 blue after I go infinite) I can target myself and grab my whole deck, play Gilded Lotus to generate infinite blue mana, then deck all my opponents with repeated Strokes via Eternal Witness. However this would not be an option with Rest and Peace in play. But in summary, it is the one blue that is the best reason in my eyes to run Stroke over Blue Suns. Also great during combat with Gilded Lotus, Bloom Tender, or Cradle in play with no other options.
I have a very similar deck --- and would like some advice.
How are you using Static Orb and Stasis? I can't seem to wrap my head around these. I get that with Stasis, you can have a couple creatures out to swing and untap the Blue that is required to keep it in play, but I feel like that's all you get out of it. Are you simply locking everything down, and only swinging with a couple of creatures each turn until you kill off your oppenents? (If so, that's fine, I just want to be sure that it's supposed to work that way )
Static orb, how and when do you tap/untap this? Do you just keep it untapped the whole time?
I figured as much. And as you saw when I play I have to fight with rest in peace early on.
Another suggestion, why not run the Reveillark combo?
If you switched Body Double with Karmic Guide and Kamahl with Mirror entity and found a slot for Reveillark, that is another infinite combo that can produce infinite mana.
I realize this this a 3 card combo + your general, but I have found it invaluable. Reveillark also helps studder any wrath effect without the combo. Karmic Guide and Mirror Entity are suitable replacements for the mentioned cards. I do agree that Kamahl with big mana is leagues better that Mirror Entity. I just likethe option of a back up/alternate combo should dead eye go missing in some way.
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I don't think the list I've posted nails that formula, but the virtual card advantage that can come from the word "can't" is massive. Many decks simply cannot function or even do anything on three lands. Ie. Maelstrom Wanderer, Prossh, Marath, and Azusa are dead in the water.
It seems like the challenge of building the "optimal" Derevi deck is having enough locks pieces, but not so many that they'll be redundant dead draws, that you're the only one playing Magic. Because you can't always lock before your opponents explode, you also need reset switches, proactive answers, and the ability to combo out quickly when necessary too.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
There are many ways to build Derevi. But at its core it is a tempo deck. Take a look at Jos' list a little way up. It builds an insane amount of early game board presence. Much faster than anything I've ever seen. Derevi abuses anything that taps, so stuff that taps for more than 1 mana: Karoo lands, mana rocks, or you name them, become enablers for us to reach our high cc splashly spells. My enablers of choice are: Bloom Tender, Somberwald Sage, Gilded Lotus, Gaea's Cradle, and Nykthos. But every build has their own.
To be precise Derevi doesn't completely lock people out - it soft-locks the table and slows opponents down. A complete lock consists of Loxodon Gatekeeper/Kismet/Frozen Aether with Stasis and Heliod/Reconnaissance in play. Getting all 3 pieces in play together is extremely difficult and not worth the effort imo. Slowing opponents is often the equivalent of crippling them when we have as many draw and tutors as we carry to get to our finisher.
I think the optimal Derevi deck looks something close to Jos' list with a bit more emphasis on a finisher. It'll have the fastest start in 9/10 games and by turn 4 look to finish the table
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Yes I have. Picked up a nice foil too. Sadly UUU is difficult to come by and the number of wizards I'm running has steadily declined
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I'm pretty sure a Stasis-oriented build is the best option: Stasis + vigilance effect/double strike/Geist of St Traft + Derevi = lock. Within that theme, the problem is that you first have to stop everyone else from going off. And like you said, your meta doesn't include the blazing-fast combo generals. Derevi's ability to come out of the command zone at instant speed with no counter response was stupid good in 1v1 because it meant that your countermagic could stall your opponent, but they couldn't meaningfully interact with you. In multiplayer, you can't counter everything and an elf swarm won't deal the 60ish damage you need to win the game. By contrast, it might easily have dealt the 30 to win a French duel.
Because you can't deal enough damage quickly enough (or maybe you just need a Beastmaster Ascension-like effect), you have to combo out or lock everyone else out. Some people in this thread have noticed that with enough card advantage, you can dork swarm and counter what needs to be countered. The issue is that you're really limited to the same tools as everyone else. In other words, when it works, it'll really work, but otherwise it's precarious. While dork swarming can feed an ever-growing dork swarm via Coastal Piracy/Edric/Bident, it implies committing to flooding the board in a way that can get you singled out as an archenemy.
So multiplayer Derevi has this fundamental bifurcation between control and swarm. If you try to split the difference, you end up with an awful deck. Swarm Derevi wants to turn attack steps into cards and mana in a self-feeding way. Combo-control Derevi wants to turn other people's untap steps into as little as possible. While a few cards overlap, the combo-control version needs vigilance-like effects to sustain Stasis and requires very different tutoring to be able to consistently find it. Why Stasis over Swarm? Because Swarm doesn't beat Maelstrom Wanderer/Krenko/etc. It can't race a turn 4 win. Even if you assume there's a turn 5...not happening. It just doesn't have an insta-win combo or exponential growth. If you want Tooth and Nail for Archangel of Thune and Spike Feeder, that's probably the closest you can get to an insta-win. Throw in some more Rogues and you can Knowledge Exploitation for it instead.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
As to the god turn, it's saccing Academy Rector to Birthing Pod to get Stasis and Prophet of Kruphix. You untap, you tap people down, nobody else gets to untap. Drawing a bunch of cards makes victory likely, but it's no guarantee.
The two strategies (swarm and combo) have a lot in common, though. In particular, they optimally fall back on one-another. Ie. Stasis to beat pillow fort, swarm to beat "pure" control. Combo > Aggro > Control > Combo. Wanderer, Animar, Prossh, Mimeoplasm, and Krenko can play aggro and combo. Sharuum and Zur can play combo and control. 5C Druid is usually "pure" combo. Pure aggro and pure control tend to fair poorly if only because they're unreliable against likely board states. Maybe Karador could be called aggro-control, but it's not tier 1. The 1v1 Derevi build is certainly aggro-control and translates horribly to multiplayer. Spell Pierce and its cousins just lose too much against a table with more than 30 life combined. So where reactive control (counterspells, instant speed removal) are great against a lone opponent, multiplayer just presents too many threats per turn to stop them all. Worse, there are no wrong threats (sort of...I'm looking at you Quarum Trench Gnomes), there are plenty of wrong answers.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Just a note Prophet doesn't work with Stasis.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Also, I'm finding that Kataki/Energy Flux/Spikefeeder of Thune are rock solid inclusions and I recommend them to all.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Lol, Zur remarked similarly. He said each Derevi deck feeds off the other. Swapped out Derevi for Azusa after that.
Stealing is better than clone effects after the legend rule change. Sower of Temptation and Roil Elemental are possibilities I'm looking at. I'm testing out Mentor of the Meek but so far it looks unimpressive. I think I'd rather have one of those 2, Timetwister, or Terastodon. Slots are precious now. Not much room to play with
I didn't have much success with tax effects in the past. And we need our artifacts. Archangel of Thune + Spike feeder doesn't stop triggers which activate on attacking, like Zur for example. It does stop Craterhoof but there are a lot of things it doesn't.
Edit: oops I read Spike Feeder wrong. I can see the combo but the two creatures aren't too useful outside of being on the field together. Spike feeder is really bad by itself
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
That's more for a list built around abusing tokens or counters. You would maybe include Felidar Sovereign, Serra Ascendant, Master Biomancer, Woodfall Primus, Avenger, sac outlets, etc. It's a poor fit here. You've got to take into consideration whether or not a card can help you reach the goal you are trying to achieve. Our win conditions are lockdown or combo. Making attackers infinitely big is not needed. Also it can be more easily done with Mirror Entity in conjuction with Deadeye and Bloom Tender or Gilded Lotus or Nykthos without having to add 2 extra cards.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
But, I also play in a group that also has a Zur deck that actively uses Rest in Peace, so I usually cannot recur stroke with Eternal Witness either.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
How are you using Static Orb and Stasis? I can't seem to wrap my head around these. I get that with Stasis, you can have a couple creatures out to swing and untap the Blue that is required to keep it in play, but I feel like that's all you get out of it. Are you simply locking everything down, and only swinging with a couple of creatures each turn until you kill off your oppenents? (If so, that's fine, I just want to be sure that it's supposed to work that way )
Static orb, how and when do you tap/untap this? Do you just keep it untapped the whole time?
Also, you ever consider Arcanis The Omnipotent?
Thanks!
Another suggestion, why not run the Reveillark combo?
If you switched Body Double with Karmic Guide and Kamahl with Mirror entity and found a slot for Reveillark, that is another infinite combo that can produce infinite mana.
I realize this this a 3 card combo + your general, but I have found it invaluable. Reveillark also helps studder any wrath effect without the combo. Karmic Guide and Mirror Entity are suitable replacements for the mentioned cards. I do agree that Kamahl with big mana is leagues better that Mirror Entity. I just likethe option of a back up/alternate combo should dead eye go missing in some way.