Still haven't gotten around to finishing this post...
Time theme control deck is pretty much the version I play 99% of the time. It's a bit more fair to casual players. It also can be more consistent than AdNaus in cutthroat. If AdNaus doesn't happen fast or gets countered you are kind of boned.
This is not the current list but pretty close and can play out much the same. Key cards missing from in the list include Dig through Time, Alhamarrett's Archive and Tidespout T. But I dont remember what else, what came out and dont have access to the deck to check right now.
Ad Naus list needs some work. There are still some high CMC cards that need to be cut. I'll work on that when I finally finish the write-up. I have so little time to work on it so its going slowly.
Way too few lands. I'd cut all the clones for more lands. I'd also add more mana rocks.
Your pillow forting looks excellent (Sphere of Safety is worth considering). I think you could use more non creature removal, for removing things like artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, etc. Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere. I think any EDH multiplayer deck that runs blue needs to run Cylonic Rift. It's just way too good. I think Lightning Greaves/Diplomatic Immunity are must runs here.
This is a great list, very close to what my list will look like.
It seems a good idea to me to include a Leyline of Anticipation if you intend to win with Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance.
I was thinking about that last night well after I posted the list. It seems like the best way to have a chance at winning with Felidar or Test is to flash them in at the last possible second. However, they are only alternate/fun win cons so unless I need the Leyline for anything else its not worth the spot. The only other need I can really think of is to be able to wrath at instant speed if people declare attacks on me. Even then, my other removal should do the job there.
Pristine Talisman and what kind of game ending combo are you going for?
Pristine Talisman seems like a perfect rock for this deck. Good thing I have a bunch of them.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more this has to be an auto include in all Oloro decks. With him on the board it basically reads: "Tap: Gain 1 Life and Draw a Card"...Seems amazing. I've cut the Gilded Drake in the list and put the Talisman in my "card draw" section since that is how I plan to use it.
Finally, bringing out Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance once I get my life gain going and have a fort built with enough counters in hand to protect them to upkeep is my fun but unlikely to work game ending strategy.
Also the Urborg + Cabal Coffers combination gives me a lot of mana without having to go infinite to pump into Exsanguinate or Debt.
Way too few lands. I'd cut all the clones for more lands. I'd also add more mana rocks.
Agreed. This is just a working list I wanted to throw down on "paper" before I lost the idea I had in my head. The clones were put in the copy Oloro so I can get 4 life gained per upkeep or to copy the Magister Sphinx to set more people to 10. I'll probably cut the Body Double for sure. I guess I might have to cut one or two more. I'll almost definitely keep the Metamorph because of his utility.
I'm wondering if I really need the Serra Ascendant in there. Right now I'm seeing it as life gain and something potentially big to use as a blocker. It could also be a big body to swing for wins with if the non-creature stuff doesn't work but I'm not sure I need all or any of those uses.
Also I'm wondering about the Gilded Drake. Its a nice card to steal a big creature with but I'm not sure how often I'm going to care about that.
Your pillow forting looks excellent (Sphere of Safety is worth considering). I think you could use more non creature removal, for removing things like artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, etc. Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere. I think any EDH multiplayer deck that runs blue needs to run Cylonic Rift. It's just way too good. I think Lightning Greaves/Diplomatic Immunity are must runs here.
Sphere of Safety was one of the last cuts I made when paring down the pillowfort list. It's definitely going to get tested as I move towards the finished product.
Do you really think I need an O-Ring or D-Sphere in addition to all that?
I assume you are suggesting the Greaves and Diplomatic Immunity as protection either for Oloro or the Felidar Sovereign...Seems like a good idea. I'm going to try to see if I can find space for them.
This is a great list, very close to what my list will look like.
Thank you, I really appreciate that. I usually have trouble with the focus of my decks when building anything other then aggro. I really feel like this is one of the tightest, most focused non-aggro deck ideas I've had.
I like it. Looking forward to running this guy myself. This might merge with my Black/white EDH.
Looking good here man!
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I've been testing Tainted Aether, it's just totally unfair, especially when paired with Overburden, both underrated cards that work well in a pillow for EDH deck with few creatures. Pendrell Mists and Aether Barrier also are amazing.
I've been testing Tainted Aether, it's just totally unfair, especially when paired with Overburden, both underrated cards that work well in a pillow for EDH deck with few creatures. Pendrell Mists and Aether Barrier also are amazing.
Brutal, but a little to Stax for what I'm going for. They would just make me the hated guy at the table as my playgroup learns the deck. They already hate when I play my GAAIV deck and its not even full blown Stax. I might rotate a few of them in and out of the deck. I'm definitely going to pick them up to add in for more competitive environments.
I have to run the Coffers/Urborg combo because of the rules in my playgroup. We limit the number of activated abilities per turn so I can't actually go infinite with my infinite mana combos (I've included them for other playgroups and the few times we don't use our own rules). So the Coffers/Urborg combo is just another way to get tons of mana to sink into the X spells.
In a perfect world where I wasn't playing somewhere limiting me like this I'd probably look at other options.
Collective Restraint looks like a good replacement for Windborn. I was already thinking about cutting Wound Reflection. My brother already runs it in another deck and it never seems to last in our playgroup. The only reason I was running it was because of the same reasons I was running the Coffers/Urborg combo. With our playgroup rules I can't go infinite mana so I need to double up on whatever I can manage to do with Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless.
I've tried running the Chalice in vampire life gain decks before and it rarely did work. I guess I could give it a tryout in this deck. Seems like it could do work.
Solitary Confinement seems really good with Oloro, since he provides the card draw needed to power it.
I have a hard time running cards that skip draw steps unless they provide draw options of their own (like Necropotence). My card draw engines don't always work as well as I'd hope. Also I'm not sure it works well with Oloro. His life gain is a triggered ability that I believe targets you (though it doesn't read "target" so it might not work that way). Therefore with Solitary Confinement out you can't gain life from him. I could be wrong though. I probably am.
Speaking of card draw...What do we think about Erebos, God of the Dead in this deck? His ability could give you card draw off the Oloro life gain (sort of) even when Oloro is in the command zone.
I think Erebos is a meta call. I doubt he'll ever be a creature in this list and there are better card draw options for esper. You're spending 6 mana to draw that first card, 8 mana for 2 cards, 10 for 3, etc.
Now, if you're up against other lifegain decks, he's fantastic and an easy inclusion. But that lifegain hoser has to be relevant.
I'm also not a fan of wound/boon reflections. They seem like "win more" cards.
It sounds weird, but I'm not a huge fan of Jace, the Mind Sculptor here either. It would be different if you were running the full cycle of fetchlands but I don't see you shuffling enough for his brainstorm to be sexy. Your pillowfort doesn't protect him.
Otherwise I like the list. I do believe that creature-light Esper will be and has always been the superior choice only because you get to jam in an absurdly high volume of the very best board wipes in the format. I personally enjoy more interactive creature-emphasis lists though.
I think Erebos is a meta call. I doubt he'll ever be a creature in this list and there are better card draw options for esper. You're spending 6 mana to draw that first card, 8 mana for 2 cards, 10 for 3, etc.
Now, if you're up against other lifegain decks, he's fantastic and an easy inclusion. But that lifegain hoser has to be relevant.
I'm also not a fan of wound/boon reflections. They seem like "win more" cards.
It sounds weird, but I'm not a huge fan of Jace, the Mind Sculptor here either. It would be different if you were running the full cycle of fetchlands but I don't see you shuffling enough for his brainstorm to be sexy. Your pillowfort doesn't protect him.
Otherwise I like the list. I do believe that creature-light Esper will be and has always been the superior choice only because you get to jam in an absurdly high volume of the very best board wipes in the format. I personally enjoy more interactive creature-emphasis lists though.
Thanks for the input. I wasn't high on Erebus but I saw him suggested somewhere else (actually it was in the thread for your list LOL) and he seemed interesting at least. You might end up being correct about Jace. Do you think Karn Liberated, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Venser, the Sojourner would be worthwhile planeswalkers here? Venser could be useful to bounce Palinchron (and the monoliths) to help guarantee I have mana for instants on other people's turns. Or to bounce the Magister Sphinx to set more people to 10. Tamiyo can tap down troublesome creatures and Karn is...well he is Karn.
Generally I feel that planeswalkers underperform in EDH. They're overpriced the turn they come out and need a couple turns on the board before they become worth it. Unfortunately, in EDH it's way too hard to protect them long enough for that to happen. The only one I really like is Elspeth 3.0 since she's a legit board wipe.
As for the time stretches, sure one can help. But it depends how far down the insta-win hole you want to go. If you really want to push it, then double the ramp, double the tutors, throw in a time stretch or two and then drop a win con down with maybe a counter as backup. Easy peasy.
Can you fit Replenish or Empty the Vaults in here? You’ve got enough stuff that gets recurred off of it, resolving one of the spells seems like it should just win you the game. How important is Leyline of Anticipation here?
Generally I feel that planeswalkers underperform in EDH. They're overpriced the turn they come out and need a couple turns on the board before they become worth it. Unfortunately, in EDH it's way too hard to protect them long enough for that to happen. The only one I really like is Elspeth 3.0 since she's a legit board wipe.
As for the time stretches, sure one can help. But it depends how far down the insta-win hole you want to go. If you really want to push it, then double the ramp, double the tutors, throw in a time stretch or two and then drop a win con down with maybe a counter as backup. Easy peasy.
Karn does work no matter what. At the very least he is a one shot exile permanent. A little pricey at 7 mana but it can deal with ANYTHING. If you can hold him a few turns he is so amazing. Probably the best PW in the game.
I actually see planeswalkers do a lot of work in my playgroup but do never go ultimate. The problem I see with running Tamiyo or Venser here is that I just don't have all that much PW protection. People will be willing to pay my pillowfort taxes to eliminate them.
I agree about the extra turn cards...Unless I'm fully committing to them as part of the main win con they just aren't worth it.
Can you fit Replenish or Empty the Vaults in here? You’ve got enough stuff that gets recurred off of it, resolving one of the spells seems like it should just win you the game. How important is Leyline of Anticipation here?
Replenish isn't worth it I don't think. I think you mean Open the Vaults with the other card...Again I'm not sure its worth it. The fort is part of the strategy but not 100% vital enough to warrant cards dedicated to rebuilding it.
We discussed Leyline earlier in the thread. I'm going to test it for how it might enable the Felidar/Test win-con.
Generally I feel that planeswalkers underperform in EDH. They're overpriced the turn they come out and need a couple turns on the board before they become worth it. Unfortunately, in EDH it's way too hard to protect them long enough for that to happen. The only one I really like is Elspeth 3.0 since she's a legit board wipe.
As for the time stretches, sure one can help. But it depends how far down the insta-win hole you want to go. If you really want to push it, then double the ramp, double the tutors, throw in a time stretch or two and then drop a win con down with maybe a counter as backup. Easy peasy.
I think Sorin's still solid at bringing some degenerate lifegain combo back to 10. Or maybe it's just because he's my favorite planeswalker so I'll use him whenever I can (as a character at least, my favorite).
I received most of the cards I needed for the deck in the mail today so I've been testing it and its been performing beautifully.
There had been some question about the value of the Leyline of Anticipation...Pretty much every time I've played the card I've won with a Test of Endurance or Felidar Sovereign. I just draw cards until I have a few counters and a tutor. Tutor for either the Sovereign or Test then cast it end of the turn before my upkeep with counter support. It is surprisingly consistent.
Norn's Annex is my second favorite pillow next to Sphere of Safety; not many people want to pay 2 life per creature.
I've been playing Sphere of Safety in my last few builds. I usually get it out with at least 3 or 4 other enchantments so it gets crazy powerful. I think its in the list I originally posted but right now Norn's Annex is sitting my "cards to test pile right now". I might pull Propaganda out for it. At first I was like...Propaganda's CMC is so much more appealing. However, seeing all the life gain I get from Oloro, I'm perfectly willing to pay phyrexian for Norn's.
An analysis of cards in the pre-con Oloro deck that aren't in my deck that I might be considering.
Preview of that analysis:
Serra Avatar: Another potential win-con. However, to fully utilize this card I'd have to also include stuff to make her unblockable. Rogue's Passage is a good choice here since I'd only have to swap a land. Venser, the Sojourner is also a possibility.
Toxic Deluge: Potentially crazy powerful board wipe in this deck. Especially if I include ways to recur and reuse it.
Also, I'll be looking at cards from the other decks that might fit in well here. One card I'm already thinking about is Baleful Force. Personally, I'm shocked that card was created for the Jeleva deck and not the Oloro deck.
I just have a question regarding your choice of Magister Sphinx and Sorin. Do these cards really help you win faster? Since you're going for combo, you'll probably finish everyone off with huge life loss so having them at 10 or 40 life shouldn't matter. Could tutors and/or card draw replace them? I'm just concerned that you're giving your opponents tools they could clone/bribery/reanimate which could upset your entire life gain gameplay.
Edit: Some of the cards in my list that you might also like to consider.
I just have a question regarding your choice of Magister Sphinx and Sorin. Do these cards really help you win faster? Since you're going for combo, you'll probably finish everyone off with huge life loss so having them at 10 or 40 life shouldn't matter. Could tutors and/or card draw replace them? I'm just concerned that you're giving your opponents tools they could clone/bribery/reanimate which could upset your entire life gain gameplay.
Edit: Some of the cards in my list that you might also like to consider.
Honestly, Sorin and Magister Sphinx are in there because of one of the playgroups I play in. I can't actual get infinite mana in that playgroup because we limit activated abilities per turn so I have Sorin and Sphinx in there when I can only get 10-20 mana for the X spells.
Ashen Rider is great just casting it once but if I can get the Deadeye Navigator bonded to it...People's boards disappear really quickly.
Daxos is sometimes a little to aggro for what I want. Once he starts exiling people's cards I become a target. I'm also rethinking the Serra Ascendant for the same reason.
Nice deck man I'm definitely subscribing to this thread. I've found a lot of cards I want run after reading this thread and looking at your deck list. The only thing I don't like are Sorin and Magister Sphinx. To me they are a little to "mean", I don't like the idea of playing one card early on that instantly drops someone to 10. I run the X spells in my deck and those are "mean" cards to but they take more mana to make them effective. Thats just me though. I like that your deck and a lot of win cons and every game must be a little different from the last.
Nice deck man I'm definitely subscribing to this thread. I've found a lot of cards I want run after reading this thread and looking at your deck list. The only thing I don't like are Sorin and Magister Sphinx. To me they are a little to "mean", I don't like the idea of playing one card early on that instantly drops someone to 10. I run the X spells in my deck and those are "mean" cards to but they take more mana to make them effective. Thats just me though. I like that your deck and a lot of win cons and every game must be a little different from the last.
I know what you mean with Sorin and the Sphinx (its even worse when you bond Deadeye to the Sphinx hehehe...).
I most of the games I play so far I don't really need to use them because I just durtle around while everyone else puts each other low enough for my X spells but I like having them "just in case". I did win a game the other night because I was able to set the main threat to 10 right before using Exsanguinate. The Exsanguinate eliminated all but one opponent and I was at a huge advantage 1v1 against him.
Like I said in my last post, I'm actually tempted to remove everything that might potentially put a target on my head (like the Serra Ascendant) because they threaten my game strategy. Mostly I just like hiding in the corner with this deck while everyone else goes after each other.
One thing I've been shocked about since I've been testing it is that Oloro on his own actually draws aggro. I don't mean when I summon him (because I almost never do, only when I'm in topdeck mode and rarely then) I mean just sitting in my command zone. I was surprised how much people actually care about your life gain.
Time theme control deck is pretty much the version I play 99% of the time. It's a bit more fair to casual players. It also can be more consistent than AdNaus in cutthroat. If AdNaus doesn't happen fast or gets countered you are kind of boned.
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Enlightened Tutor
Counters (10):
1 Pact of Negation
1 Swan Song
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Spell Crumple
1 Hinder
1 Force of Will
1 Cryptic Command
1 Forbid
1 Mindbreak Trap
Removal (7):
1 Oblation
1 Return to Dust
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Cyclonic Rift
Ramp (8):
1 Sol Ring
1 Azorius Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Windfall
Time Package (6):
1 Time Stretch
1 Time Warp
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Plea for Power
Draw/Deck Manipulation (9):
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Recurring Insight
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Treasure Cruise
Win Conditions (4):
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Demonic Consultation
Good Stuff (11):
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Clever Imposter
1 Gilded Drake
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Rhystic Study
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Future Sight
1 Notion Thief
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Vesuva
1 Tolaria West
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Temple of the False God
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Mystic Gate
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Island
3 Swamp
1 Plains
This is not the current list but pretty close and can play out much the same. Key cards missing from in the list include Dig through Time, Alhamarrett's Archive and Tidespout T. But I dont remember what else, what came out and dont have access to the deck to check right now.
AdNaus List:
6 Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Creatures (9):
2 Gilded Drake
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Etherium Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
5 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Enchantments (4):
1 Land Tax
3 Necropotence
5 Future Sight
6 Mind Over Matter
Instants (29):
0 Pact of Negation
1 Dark Ritual
1 Brainstorm
1 Peek
1 Swan Song
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Dispel
1 Spell Pierce
2 Shred Memory
2 Counterspell
2 Mana Drain
2 Muddle the Mixture
2 Memory Lapse
2 Remand
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Oblation
3 Faerie Trickery
3 Forbid
3 Hinder
3 Spell Crumple
4 Return to Dust
5 Force of Will
5 Ad Nauseam
1 Ponder
1 Serum Visions
1 Preordain
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Cruel Tutor
3 Beseech the Queen
3 Yawgoth's Will
3 Vindicate
4x Debt to the Deathless
Artifacts (14):
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
0 Mox Opal
0 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dimir Signet
2 Azorius Signet
2 Orzhov Signet
2 Fellwar Stone
3 Chromatic Lantern
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gilded Lotus
Lands (34):
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Tainted Isle
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Tolaria West
1 Underground Sea
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Temple of the False God
1 Command Tower
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Scrubland
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Watery Grave
1 Tundra
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Godless Shrine
1 Vesuva
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Ancient Tomb
Ad Naus list needs some work. There are still some high CMC cards that need to be cut. I'll work on that when I finally finish the write-up. I have so little time to work on it so its going slowly.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Your pillow forting looks excellent (Sphere of Safety is worth considering). I think you could use more non creature removal, for removing things like artifacts, planeswalkers, enchantments, etc. Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere. I think any EDH multiplayer deck that runs blue needs to run Cylonic Rift. It's just way too good. I think Lightning Greaves/Diplomatic Immunity are must runs here.
This is a great list, very close to what my list will look like.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I was considering Sphinx's Rev but ran out of spots. As I pare down the list it might make it in but right now getting more mana in is the priority.
I was thinking about that last night well after I posted the list. It seems like the best way to have a chance at winning with Felidar or Test is to flash them in at the last possible second. However, they are only alternate/fun win cons so unless I need the Leyline for anything else its not worth the spot. The only other need I can really think of is to be able to wrath at instant speed if people declare attacks on me. Even then, my other removal should do the job there.
Pristine Talisman seems like a perfect rock for this deck. Good thing I have a bunch of them.
EDIT: The more I think about it the more this has to be an auto include in all Oloro decks. With him on the board it basically reads: "Tap: Gain 1 Life and Draw a Card"...Seems amazing. I've cut the Gilded Drake in the list and put the Talisman in my "card draw" section since that is how I plan to use it.
Game ending combos include the Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond combo. Exquisite Blood + Oloro + an infinite mana generation engine (possibilities include Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron, Power Artifact + Basalt Monolith and Power Artifact + Grim Monolith).
Also available are the infinite mana combos + Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless or setting people to 10 with Sorin Markov, the Magister Sphinx and copies of the Magister Sphinx then using Exsanguinate or Debt.
Finally, bringing out Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance once I get my life gain going and have a fort built with enough counters in hand to protect them to upkeep is my fun but unlikely to work game ending strategy.
Also the Urborg + Cabal Coffers combination gives me a lot of mana without having to go infinite to pump into Exsanguinate or Debt.
Agreed. This is just a working list I wanted to throw down on "paper" before I lost the idea I had in my head. The clones were put in the copy Oloro so I can get 4 life gained per upkeep or to copy the Magister Sphinx to set more people to 10. I'll probably cut the Body Double for sure. I guess I might have to cut one or two more. I'll almost definitely keep the Metamorph because of his utility.
I'm wondering if I really need the Serra Ascendant in there. Right now I'm seeing it as life gain and something potentially big to use as a blocker. It could also be a big body to swing for wins with if the non-creature stuff doesn't work but I'm not sure I need all or any of those uses.
Also I'm wondering about the Gilded Drake. Its a nice card to steal a big creature with but I'm not sure how often I'm going to care about that.
Sphere of Safety was one of the last cuts I made when paring down the pillowfort list. It's definitely going to get tested as I move towards the finished product.
I am running Cyc Rift. I also have Oblation, Venser, Shaper Savant, Spin into Myth, Vindicate and Jace, the Mind Sculptor (if necessary...not the preferred use) to destroy, bounce or tuck most non-creature permanents. And Hero's Downfall to deal with planeswalkers.
Do you really think I need an O-Ring or D-Sphere in addition to all that?
I assume you are suggesting the Greaves and Diplomatic Immunity as protection either for Oloro or the Felidar Sovereign...Seems like a good idea. I'm going to try to see if I can find space for them.
Thank you, I really appreciate that. I usually have trouble with the focus of my decks when building anything other then aggro. I really feel like this is one of the tightest, most focused non-aggro deck ideas I've had.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Looking good here man!
I don't think it makes sense to run Cabal Coffers/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, a little too niche, but if you really like it, I'd probably look at Expedition Map.
Collective Restraint is basically a more resilient and potentially more taxing Windborn Muse. I'd also cut Wound Reflection, it's basically win more. Chalice of Life is really great, very easy to flip here.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Brutal, but a little to Stax for what I'm going for. They would just make me the hated guy at the table as my playgroup learns the deck. They already hate when I play my GAAIV deck and its not even full blown Stax. I might rotate a few of them in and out of the deck. I'm definitely going to pick them up to add in for more competitive environments.
I have to run the Coffers/Urborg combo because of the rules in my playgroup. We limit the number of activated abilities per turn so I can't actually go infinite with my infinite mana combos (I've included them for other playgroups and the few times we don't use our own rules). So the Coffers/Urborg combo is just another way to get tons of mana to sink into the X spells.
In a perfect world where I wasn't playing somewhere limiting me like this I'd probably look at other options.
Collective Restraint looks like a good replacement for Windborn. I was already thinking about cutting Wound Reflection. My brother already runs it in another deck and it never seems to last in our playgroup. The only reason I was running it was because of the same reasons I was running the Coffers/Urborg combo. With our playgroup rules I can't go infinite mana so I need to double up on whatever I can manage to do with Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless.
I've tried running the Chalice in vampire life gain decks before and it rarely did work. I guess I could give it a tryout in this deck. Seems like it could do work.
I have a hard time running cards that skip draw steps unless they provide draw options of their own (like Necropotence). My card draw engines don't always work as well as I'd hope. Also I'm not sure it works well with Oloro. His life gain is a triggered ability that I believe targets you (though it doesn't read "target" so it might not work that way). Therefore with Solitary Confinement out you can't gain life from him. I could be wrong though. I probably am.
Speaking of card draw...What do we think about Erebos, God of the Dead in this deck? His ability could give you card draw off the Oloro life gain (sort of) even when Oloro is in the command zone.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Now, if you're up against other lifegain decks, he's fantastic and an easy inclusion. But that lifegain hoser has to be relevant.
I'm also not a fan of wound/boon reflections. They seem like "win more" cards.
It sounds weird, but I'm not a huge fan of Jace, the Mind Sculptor here either. It would be different if you were running the full cycle of fetchlands but I don't see you shuffling enough for his brainstorm to be sexy. Your pillowfort doesn't protect him.
Otherwise I like the list. I do believe that creature-light Esper will be and has always been the superior choice only because you get to jam in an absurdly high volume of the very best board wipes in the format. I personally enjoy more interactive creature-emphasis lists though.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
Thanks for the input. I wasn't high on Erebus but I saw him suggested somewhere else (actually it was in the thread for your list LOL) and he seemed interesting at least. You might end up being correct about Jace. Do you think Karn Liberated, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Venser, the Sojourner would be worthwhile planeswalkers here? Venser could be useful to bounce Palinchron (and the monoliths) to help guarantee I have mana for instants on other people's turns. Or to bounce the Magister Sphinx to set more people to 10. Tamiyo can tap down troublesome creatures and Karn is...well he is Karn.
Also, what about Wall of Denial to shore up the fort?
I'm also debating Time Warp and Time Stretch to give myself a better chance at the unconventional Felidar Sovereign or Test of Endurance win.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
As for the time stretches, sure one can help. But it depends how far down the insta-win hole you want to go. If you really want to push it, then double the ramp, double the tutors, throw in a time stretch or two and then drop a win con down with maybe a counter as backup. Easy peasy.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
Karn does work no matter what. At the very least he is a one shot exile permanent. A little pricey at 7 mana but it can deal with ANYTHING. If you can hold him a few turns he is so amazing. Probably the best PW in the game.
I actually see planeswalkers do a lot of work in my playgroup but do never go ultimate. The problem I see with running Tamiyo or Venser here is that I just don't have all that much PW protection. People will be willing to pay my pillowfort taxes to eliminate them.
I agree about the extra turn cards...Unless I'm fully committing to them as part of the main win con they just aren't worth it.
Replenish isn't worth it I don't think. I think you mean Open the Vaults with the other card...Again I'm not sure its worth it. The fort is part of the strategy but not 100% vital enough to warrant cards dedicated to rebuilding it.
We discussed Leyline earlier in the thread. I'm going to test it for how it might enable the Felidar/Test win-con.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I think Sorin's still solid at bringing some degenerate lifegain combo back to 10. Or maybe it's just because he's my favorite planeswalker so I'll use him whenever I can (as a character at least, my favorite).
There had been some question about the value of the Leyline of Anticipation...Pretty much every time I've played the card I've won with a Test of Endurance or Felidar Sovereign. I just draw cards until I have a few counters and a tutor. Tutor for either the Sovereign or Test then cast it end of the turn before my upkeep with counter support. It is surprisingly consistent.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
I've been playing Sphere of Safety in my last few builds. I usually get it out with at least 3 or 4 other enchantments so it gets crazy powerful. I think its in the list I originally posted but right now Norn's Annex is sitting my "cards to test pile right now". I might pull Propaganda out for it. At first I was like...Propaganda's CMC is so much more appealing. However, seeing all the life gain I get from Oloro, I'm perfectly willing to pay phyrexian for Norn's.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
An analysis of cards in the pre-con Oloro deck that aren't in my deck that I might be considering.
Preview of that analysis:
Serra Avatar: Another potential win-con. However, to fully utilize this card I'd have to also include stuff to make her unblockable. Rogue's Passage is a good choice here since I'd only have to swap a land. Venser, the Sojourner is also a possibility.
Toxic Deluge: Potentially crazy powerful board wipe in this deck. Especially if I include ways to recur and reuse it.
Also, I'll be looking at cards from the other decks that might fit in well here. One card I'm already thinking about is Baleful Force. Personally, I'm shocked that card was created for the Jeleva deck and not the Oloro deck.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Because new players don't like to lose life in a gain-life deck blabla... Wizard, please stop this! Everyone love losing life!
I just have a question regarding your choice of Magister Sphinx and Sorin. Do these cards really help you win faster? Since you're going for combo, you'll probably finish everyone off with huge life loss so having them at 10 or 40 life shouldn't matter. Could tutors and/or card draw replace them? I'm just concerned that you're giving your opponents tools they could clone/bribery/reanimate which could upset your entire life gain gameplay.
Edit: Some of the cards in my list that you might also like to consider.
Faster mana:
Mana Crypt
Ancient Tomb
Orzhov Signet
Azorius Signet
Dimir Signet
Additional life gain/loss:
Divinity of Pride
Vizkopa Guildmage
Blind Obedience
Beacon of Immortality
Other stuff:
Academy Rector
WBR: Kaalia of the Vast
GWU: Rafiq of the Many
WUB: Sydri, Galvanic Genius
URG: Riku of Two Reflections
BRG: Kresh the Bloodbraided
WUBRG: Sliver Overlord
Honestly, Sorin and Magister Sphinx are in there because of one of the playgroups I play in. I can't actual get infinite mana in that playgroup because we limit activated abilities per turn so I have Sorin and Sphinx in there when I can only get 10-20 mana for the X spells.
I've been testing Ashen Rider and Daxos of Meletis in the deck and had some very good results.
Ashen Rider is great just casting it once but if I can get the Deadeye Navigator bonded to it...People's boards disappear really quickly.
Daxos is sometimes a little to aggro for what I want. Once he starts exiling people's cards I become a target. I'm also rethinking the Serra Ascendant for the same reason.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
You've given me ideas for my list :] thanks
EDH
UWB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
GGG Azusa, Lost but Seeking
I know what you mean with Sorin and the Sphinx (its even worse when you bond Deadeye to the Sphinx hehehe...).
I most of the games I play so far I don't really need to use them because I just durtle around while everyone else puts each other low enough for my X spells but I like having them "just in case". I did win a game the other night because I was able to set the main threat to 10 right before using Exsanguinate. The Exsanguinate eliminated all but one opponent and I was at a huge advantage 1v1 against him.
Like I said in my last post, I'm actually tempted to remove everything that might potentially put a target on my head (like the Serra Ascendant) because they threaten my game strategy. Mostly I just like hiding in the corner with this deck while everyone else goes after each other.
One thing I've been shocked about since I've been testing it is that Oloro on his own actually draws aggro. I don't mean when I summon him (because I almost never do, only when I'm in topdeck mode and rarely then) I mean just sitting in my command zone. I was surprised how much people actually care about your life gain.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB