Excellent list. Loving the updates. I'll be doing some of my own as soon as I get some real play test sessions in. So far, it's looking like I'm still going to be shooting for some sort of hybrid pain / spellslinger build.
Your list was a starting point for me. Built it to goldfish a bit... Holy crap this deck can get nutty draws. A few card differences (no Timetwister, U/x duals, Moxen, etc) due to cost or non-ownership. Only issue I have is when I run out of gas. Tossed in 1 Eldrazi Titan to fix that. Hive Mind, while awesome, usually just sits in my hand or gets pitched to Dream Halls. Yawg's Will is nuts with Dream Halls out, which I've been testing. I'm interested to see where yours goes.
As soon as I saw this card I knew I was going to be building a deck around him. Of course the infect win plan was one that quickly came to mind but I want to have fun with people not make them want to flip the table on me. My version of the deck is going to sit back and draw everyone cards in the beginning of of cards like hollowing mine and prosperity/ skyscribing, sit behind a few choice counter spells for big threats, play wheel of fortune effects and sweepers for big boards.
Heh, I hadn't considered Curiosity. I think if we put it on our general he will become a bigger target than he already is. On Niv-V1 it's funny. I'm not to fond of infinite combos, so I always try to win by some other means. I use the Temble Bell/Mind Over Matter combo to help dig, not win. Madness on the Tar Pit would be nifty, I'll have to use that one. Since I don't have all the duals, I might try it out in the Sea slot. I'm running Niv-v1 and, while great, he's been kinda "meh" for me. Testing is ongoing there. I am running Yawg's will and Snapcaster. While I don't want to be exiling cards since I have Kozi to refill my library, Will helps to keep you from running out of gas (works REALLY well with Dream Halls). As for the wand, I don't really want to be attacking with my general, even if he can one-shot anyone. That may just be due to my meta. While Mine and Prosperity effects are fun, I just don't like giving my opponents any gas while I'm trying to set up my infernal machine (constant wheels, refill the library, repeat).
Whenever Waste Not (YMTC) is printed, you might need to make room for it:
One good wheel should net you a fist full of new cards to continue to combo off and extra to help cast those cards. (Oh, and zombies.)
I have it proxied up. I just wish it was mana of any color, because for all intensive purposes, all of our wheels are UR. It will allow us to spam tutors and throw down all our mana rocks, which is nice, the real kicker is the draws. I cant wait to see it in action!
But yeah, I recently posted my list to it's own topic. It's basically the OP with a few budget minded cuts, and more draw and weak wheel effects where MCR has Timetwister and Infect. I definitely want to do a surprise infect someday but since lifegain isnt a problem in my meta, I dont think I'll need it with how consistent it is. I typically Partial into
Land, Land, Pain, Wheel, Tutor, Mana Rock/Accel, [X]
Which is exactly what I want to do. I love the concept, since my Melek deck was struggling to do just this, or combo off. Many thanks to contributors.
A key card I like to run is Whirlpool Warrior. She allows me to try out a new hand, and then for another red mana, Winds of Change essentially. A four mana wheel on a stick isnt bad, especially if i can land it, grab answers, and then use her later, or in response to someone else's Tutor to stop them from stopping me
Waste Not is an auto include for sure but we will see if that card really gets printed at 2 CMC with that crazy of an effect. I would say the card it resembles closest is Primeval Bounty and that's 6 CMC ,which for that game changing of an effect is fair, so I would be a little surprised to see waste not only cost 2. That card along side something like Ogre Battledriver could win the game after a wheel effect or two. I like to fill up my opponents hands with cards because most of the people I play with dont see this as a threat so I'm kept alive for a long time. Than I combo off and win. I just try not to play cards that put a target on my back unless it wins me the game in doing so. Also Sire of Insanity along with megrim effects when my opponents can end a game very quick. So what do you guys this is the right number of sweeper and counter spells for a list life this?
What are the best of each in our colors?
Derp I meant Yawgs Will!. Bargain can burn in hell! Diminishing Returns is not that bad. I'm going to give it run, but how many wheel effects do you really need.
Derp I meant Yawgs Will!. Bargain can burn in hell! Diminishing Returns is not that bad. I'm going to give it run, but how many wheel effects do you really need.
I'm not running D-Returns because it's "draw up-to", meaning you can't force your opponents to draw cards. Food for thought.
Are people seriously milling themselves? Can you elaborate how? In all honesty i just dont see how that can be happening, as Half of our wheels shuffle cards back in, some even shuffle your wheels in the graveyard in!
Also, resolving time spiral and molten psyche as the 2-4th wheels in a chain are my most satisfying plays. Literally the MVPs of the deck. TS resets you so you can continue churning out plays and enable you to have more gas, and MS ends games after 2-3 wheels, even with only one punishment effect out
Lets say
1 wheel and general = 7 damage
Plus MS = 7+7+14=28
21 damage is insane for 3 mana!
Then,
2 normal punishment effects when drawing
1 wheel = 14
Plus ms. 14+14+14= 42, game over.
These are average punishment effects and wheels that are d7's. If someone has more cards in hand, it gets deadlier. However, we want them to have cards in hand, but we dont want them to answer us. Going off when theyre tapped out, or with Teferi is the goal. And its a beautiful thing!
So you are running 9 fetch lands and only 6 targets. Has that not been a problem for you? Yes we know urborg makes them tap for black but you have already talked about your reasoning for running few tutors.
So you are running 9 fetch lands and only 6 targets. Has that not been a problem for you? Yes we know urborg makes them tap for black but you have already talked about your reasoning for running few tutors.
I've been playing with this type of mana base setup across several tri-color generals for years now, and the times I was unable to search for a land I can count on one hand. The only time it's a real issue is if you play Sylvan Primordial, which this deck does not.
Has anyone tried Teferi's Puzzle Box? I know you can't Fork it, and its slower, but it seems like it could fit in pretty well. I was thinking of transforming my current Jeleva build to a Nekusar build with a Chains of Mephistopheles lock.
Has anyone tried Teferi's Puzzle Box? I know you can't Fork it, and its slower, but it seems like it could fit in pretty well. I was thinking of transforming my current Jeleva build to a Nekusar build with a Chains of Mephistopheles lock.
Along with waste not and library of leng, they've been recommended on every page now by posters. All are great. I may try puzzlebox out soon. I run whirlpool warrior as my singleshot puzzlebox on myself, and a wheel for a single red.
I wish i could afford chains though...and timetwister. Im quite jealous.
I run it in my build, as it does make a target for removal, it's also another spell out of someone's hand. It does make it slow and tedious but with all the hate from drawing cards in my build, barely anyone actually removes it because it helps them get rid of a dead hand (hopefully).
I played a version of this last night. Player to my right cast Time Stretch. I played Lim-Dul's Vault until I could find a fork effect, put it on the top, and then activated Temple Bell. Fun
times.
I have a very similar deck to OP.. This list has a lot of trouble against aggro or creature heavy builds.. Even with 3-4 board wipes, spot removal, counters, etc...
Any luck testing with pillowfort effects ie propoganda, meekstone, etc ?
Played 3 games with nekusar yesterday and won them all, it's been incredibly fun so far, let me just say, puzzle box has been great for me not sure what you other people have experienced. It's a lot of disruption and it keeps the damage high, you can stack nekusar on the stack first and eek out 2 extra damage from it as well.
I have a very similar deck to OP.. This list has a lot of trouble against aggro or creature heavy builds.. Even with 3-4 board wipes, spot removal, counters, etc...
Any luck testing with pillowfort effects ie propoganda, meekstone, etc ?
I'm a big fan of threat density over reactivity, but if I were worried about it I'd definitely go pillow fort before wrath and such, they do a bit more work against multiple players, maybe 2-3 boardwipes and 2-4 pillowfort then 3-5 spot removal, I run 0 counters, but if I did it'd be 1-2 and it'd be force and pact of negation.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Excellent list. Loving the updates. I'll be doing some of my own as soon as I get some real play test sessions in. So far, it's looking like I'm still going to be shooting for some sort of hybrid pain / spellslinger build.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
URGEDH Biovisionary.dec BShirei WBSelenia
The brain is the muscle that pumps stupid through the body
A few cards I haven't seen much mention of are:
Sire of Insanity
Havengul Lich - I plan on playing more creatures than your list. Snapcaster Mage, Trinket Mage, Archaeomancer , Both versions of Niv-Mizzet
Creeping Tar Pit - really good target for Whispering Madness
Diviner's Wand
Wound Reflection - Painful Quandary
Edit: Forgot this card
Curiosity is insane turning the general into a pseudo consecrated sphinx and also just wins with Niv- Mizzet
URGEDH Biovisionary.dec BShirei WBSelenia
The brain is the muscle that pumps stupid through the body
One good wheel should net you a fist full of new cards to continue to combo off and extra to help cast those cards. (Oh, and zombies.)
Thread | Draft
I have it proxied up. I just wish it was mana of any color, because for all intensive purposes, all of our wheels are UR. It will allow us to spam tutors and throw down all our mana rocks, which is nice, the real kicker is the draws. I cant wait to see it in action!
But yeah, I recently posted my list to it's own topic. It's basically the OP with a few budget minded cuts, and more draw and weak wheel effects where MCR has Timetwister and Infect. I definitely want to do a surprise infect someday but since lifegain isnt a problem in my meta, I dont think I'll need it with how consistent it is. I typically Partial into
Land, Land, Pain, Wheel, Tutor, Mana Rock/Accel, [X]
Which is exactly what I want to do. I love the concept, since my Melek deck was struggling to do just this, or combo off. Many thanks to contributors.
A key card I like to run is Whirlpool Warrior. She allows me to try out a new hand, and then for another red mana, Winds of Change essentially. A four mana wheel on a stick isnt bad, especially if i can land it, grab answers, and then use her later, or in response to someone else's Tutor to stop them from stopping me
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
What are the best of each in our colors?
A few more cards I forgot(I dont play all of these just stuff to consider):
Malfegor
Forced Fruition?
Words of Waste - Words of war - [CARD]Words of
Wind[/CARD]
I would also think Library of Leng is a must. The ability seems so powerful with all the wheel effects.
CardboardCreationism
ETSY COUNTERS
CardboardCreationism
ETSY COUNTERS
I'm not running D-Returns because it's "draw up-to", meaning you can't force your opponents to draw cards. Food for thought.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Also, resolving time spiral and molten psyche as the 2-4th wheels in a chain are my most satisfying plays. Literally the MVPs of the deck. TS resets you so you can continue churning out plays and enable you to have more gas, and MS ends games after 2-3 wheels, even with only one punishment effect out
Lets say
1 wheel and general = 7 damage
Plus MS = 7+7+14=28
21 damage is insane for 3 mana!
Then,
2 normal punishment effects when drawing
1 wheel = 14
Plus ms. 14+14+14= 42, game over.
These are average punishment effects and wheels that are d7's. If someone has more cards in hand, it gets deadlier. However, we want them to have cards in hand, but we dont want them to answer us. Going off when theyre tapped out, or with Teferi is the goal. And its a beautiful thing!
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Nicol Bolas, a balance of Vorthos and PowerUBR
Nath of the Gilt LeafBG
Others
Squee, Goblin of AwesomenessR
Nekusar, the Mindblazer!UBR
Vela the NightcladUB
I used to be a world champion, but then I took a wolf to the knee. And three Galvanic Blasts to the face.
Concerning when returning to Kamigawa would be acceptable
I've been playing with this type of mana base setup across several tri-color generals for years now, and the times I was unable to search for a land I can count on one hand. The only time it's a real issue is if you play Sylvan Primordial, which this deck does not.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
EDH Decks:
B Toshiro Umezawa B
W Mikaeus, the Lunarch W
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born BU
BGU The Mimeoplasm UGB
GUW Rubinia Soulsinger WUG
GRB Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper BRG
Along with waste not and library of leng, they've been recommended on every page now by posters. All are great. I may try puzzlebox out soon. I run whirlpool warrior as my singleshot puzzlebox on myself, and a wheel for a single red.
I wish i could afford chains though...and timetwister. Im quite jealous.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I run it in my build, as it does make a target for removal, it's also another spell out of someone's hand. It does make it slow and tedious but with all the hate from drawing cards in my build, barely anyone actually removes it because it helps them get rid of a dead hand (hopefully).
times.
Any luck testing with pillowfort effects ie propoganda, meekstone, etc ?
I'm a big fan of threat density over reactivity, but if I were worried about it I'd definitely go pillow fort before wrath and such, they do a bit more work against multiple players, maybe 2-3 boardwipes and 2-4 pillowfort then 3-5 spot removal, I run 0 counters, but if I did it'd be 1-2 and it'd be force and pact of negation.
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
There's a few tips in here that I hadn't thought of - so I'll swap mine over soon and see what comes of this build and report back here at some point.