1. Ramp into wheels. Wheels draw into more ramp, etc etc.
2. Cast Nekusar and pain permanents.
3. Setup heavy wheeling to burn or poison opponents out.
Broken Paths To Victory
A. Dream Halls
Perhaps the most busted card in this deck, having this in play means you are well on your way to victory. Wheeling draws you a ton of cards, which you can then play for free, allowing you to effectively power through the majority of your deck with ease. Important support card: Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
B. Mind Over Matter
A powerful enabler that allows you to untap artifact mana and lands at a whim. Paired with the heavy amount of card draw, MoM performs a similar role to Dream Halls. Less risky, but not as broken. This enchantment also creates nearly infinite mana artifact ramp cards, and has its own infinite with Temple Bell.
C. Hive Mind
An enabler in the sense that you'll cast less wheels while this is in play. Cast a single wheel, and deal up to 28 damage with Nekusar in play. Note that this card is dangerous, and I wouldn't cast it until you're ready to go off.
D. Infect Poison (Tainted Strike / Phyresis / Glistening Oil)
An alternative method to winning via burn. These are cheap enablers that also reduce the cost of winning by a large margin. Cast them on Nekusar before performing two wheels. This is by far one of the riskiest plays - I may end up taking these out if it's too easy to deal with Nekusar.
E. Notion Thief
EOT flash this guy in and draw up to 28 cards with your next wheel. From there, you can proceed to win via Psychosis Crawler or by setting up a big wheeling turn and then bouncing Notion Thief to your hand with Chain of Vapor.
Things to Keep in Mind
This is a chaos combo deck. Don't fall in love with your hands. If there's a pain card, and it's not convenient to cast, don't be afraid to wheel it away. The point is to build large amounts of mana first. Due to the random nature of the deck, you can't expect to have a linear game plan at all, so embrace what the heart of the cards gives you.
registered just to check out these lists. looking really solid.
have you considered additional ways of dealing damage, such as Niv-Mizzet? i can see your general getting tucked or killed over and over again being a problem. adding lightning greaves should help too.
I do observe it on your list, but even in a competitive metagame, surely your general needs either more counters or some shroud (like the greaves you are considering).
There are also unusually few tutors, wouldn't a few set up an alternative combo win should your general lack a window to do his thing?
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
registered just to check out these lists. looking really solid.
have you considered additional ways of dealing damage, such as Niv-Mizzet? i can see your general getting tucked or killed over and over again being a problem. adding lightning greaves should help too.
Thanks, it's what a quick gatherer search and some tinkering for an hour made.
I did consider playing more single-target damage outlets, but I just felt that they didn't do enough. The ones in the deck are aimed at hurting the table all at once, so I don't have to work harder for my wins. As it is, this list already looks difficult to win with in a high-powered meta.
And yes, one of my concerns was having to re-cast Nekusar over and over again. Honestly, his ability is interchangeable with the Underworld Dreams-type cards in the list already, so having just one out should be enough to deal some serious damage. Having him around only compounds that ability. But again, this is all baseless until I can give the deck a test run.
I do observe it on your list, but even in a competitive metagame, surely your general needs either more counters or some shroud (like the greaves you are considering).
There are also unusually few tutors, wouldn't a few set up an alternative combo win should your general lack a window to do his thing?
Yes, those are valid concerns. Lightning Greaves should be in this list. Perhaps tutors as well. I think I was caught up in the fact that I'm running both Mindlock Orb and Strangehold (which in hindsight, kind of hurts since I'm running all 9 fetches). Cards like Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor should probably be in the deck - that way I can get rid of some of the more expensive draw 7-s.
On that thought - I should be running Insidious Dreams. That looks to be the ultimate setup card for a big, big turn.
EDIT: based on your guys' feedback...
- Minds Aglow
- Prosperity
- Wheel of Fate
- Incindiary Command
- Magus of the Jar
- Past in Flames
+ Imperial Seal
+ Vampiric Tutor
+ Demonic Tutor
+ Insidious Dreams
+ Arcane Denial
+ Swan Song
Just being realistic here, the cards I cut are pretty underwhelming in their own rights - especially Prosperity and Minds Aglow. I want to be netting more cards than I'm paying for, and neither of those cards are worth tapping out for (I think). The tutors are important for finding the damage-combo pieces, but both Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal on turn 1 read: put target Mana Crypt on top of your library haha. Either way, it'd be folly not to play these even with Mindlock Orb in the deck. Ironically, I may be using my tutors to GET it. I chose black tutors only because there are things I want to fetch outside of instants and sorceries. MCR, Double posting is only allowed after 48 hours in the EDH forum. Creating a second account (BlueVortex) to have a conversation with yourself is still double posting. Please do not. -Galspanic
Yes, those are valid concerns. Lightning Greaves should be in this list. Perhaps tutors as well. I think I was caught up in the fact that I'm running both Mindlock Orb and Strangehold (which in hindsight, kind of hurts since I'm running all 9 fetches). Cards like Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor should probably be in the deck - that way I can get rid of some of the more expensive draw 7-s.
On that thought - I should be running Insidious Dreams. That looks to be the ultimate setup card for a big, big turn.
EDIT: based on your guys' feedback...
- Minds Aglow
- Prosperity
- Wheel of Fate
- Incindiary Command
- Magus of the Jar
- Past in Flames
+ Imperial Seal
+ Vampiric Tutor
+ Demonic Tutor
+ Insidious Dreams
+ Arcane Denial
+ Swan Song
Just being realistic here, the cards I cut are pretty underwhelming in their own rights - especially Prosperity and Minds Aglow. I want to be netting more cards than I'm paying for, and neither of those cards are worth tapping out for (I think). The tutors are important for finding the damage-combo pieces, but both Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal on turn 1 read: put target Mana Crypt on top of your library haha. Either way, it'd be folly not to play these even with Mindlock Orb in the deck. Ironically, I may be using my tutors to GET it. I chose black tutors only because there are things I want to fetch outside of instants and sorceries.
i like the changes. i'm not entirely sure about the counterspell choices, but i'm guessing it's because you're a 3-color deck so you're trying to keep the costs light. i would think about playing some more free counters, like commandeer or misdirection. they'll be easier to cast.
i also agree that some of the cruddier draw spells can be cut. you might want to check out Gaka's thread for more ideas too. you guys have lists that look pretty close, though yours is changing now.
still think you should be playing lightning greaves in the very least.
MCR, Double posting is only allowed after 48 hours in the EDH forum. Creating a second account (BlueVortex) to have a conversation with yourself is still double posting. Please do not. -Galspanic
Stranglehold only targets your opponents, so on your prior point it shouldn't be an issue, although Mindlock Orb is somewhat obstructive.
I like the changes, although am curious on your opinion concerning Jace Beleren, does he do enough and would Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas maybe do more for you? It's probably not necessary, but would helm combo or in the least Leyline of the Void fit in? You may want an a way to exile all the cards they draw and discard.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
i like the changes. i'm not entirely sure about the counterspell choices, but i'm guessing it's because you're a 3-color deck so you're trying to keep the costs light. i would think about playing some more free counters, like commandeer or misdirection. they'll be easier to cast.
i also agree that some of the cruddier draw spells can be cut. you might want to check out Gaka's thread for more ideas too. you guys have lists that look pretty close, though yours is changing now.
still think you should be playing lightning greaves in the very least.
I have this sort of crazy idea of booting some of the Howling Mine effects in favor of Fork effects. Why? Because you don't really want your opponents drawing extra cards when you don't have pain out already. Fork effects double as counters for counters, let you abuse the same things your opponents are abusing, and can double the effects of your wheels - worth way more than Howling Mine I would think. Let me know if I'm crazy though.
This is what I have in mind:
Howling Mine -> Fork
Anvil of Bogardan -> Reverberate
Kami of the Crescent Moon -> Twincast
Stranglehold only targets your opponents, so on your prior point it shouldn't be an issue, although Mindlock Orb is somewhat obstructive.
I like the changes, although am curious on your opinion concerning Jace Beleren, does he do enough and would Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas maybe do more for you? It's probably not necessary, but would helm combo or in the least Leyline of the Void fit in? You may want an a way to exile all the cards they draw and discard.
Mindlock Orb is too good to pass up I think, even when hurting myself. In a more competitive metagame, tutors are rampant, and these type of cards slow them down to a crawl. This is a rare deck that can actually afford to run it.
Jace Beleren is a howling mine effect, which to BlueVortex's comment, I think I might end up removing all howling mines eventually. They're just too slow, don't hit hard enough, and come out before I get my pain online.
About the Helm+Leyline combo, I feel that it's slightly lame and unnecessary. The Leyline SORT of helps the deck in that it can negate GY strategies, but I've never liked how relatively "meh" Helm is by itself. I'd prefer to stay on strategy and maximize.
I'm looking forward to seeing how this deck goes, if my comments havent indicated otherwise this will be the first of the new generals I try. This list looks very good already. This mighe be too slow, but Final Punishment could be an interesting play as well, especially if somehow copied, as would Wound Reflection, if your metagames let it get that late.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
MCR, Double posting is only allowed after 48 hours in the EDH forum. Creating a second account (BlueVortex) to have a conversation with yourself is still double posting. Please do not. -Galspanic
I just wanted to throw this out there for everyone to see, since there's blaring red text all over my posts. Yes, I did create a second account to bump myself and yes, I did think I was really clever while I was doing it. In hindsight, it was pretty dumb and I didn't even need to do such a ridiculous thing. I saw my post start slipping off the page and was hoping to keep it alive and running. So to those offended or weirded out, I apologize for becoming a bit overzealous.
If you want Fork effects how about Echo Mage or Meletis Charlatan? They'd both obviously allow you to copy your wheel effects, but they can also let you fight win counter wars and turn spot removal into mini Wrath effects.
I would be wary about running an overload of Fork effects, as this deck isn't necessarily all about that. I just added in a few as value plays and flexibility, and are hopefully better than Howling Mines.
Riptide Laboratory will save him from removal and allow you to recast him without tax
Hm, good idea, though I don't know if I'll ever have that mana sitting around. I've always found the card to be under-par, unless playing with Wizards that have ETB abilities. Usually I would just say yes, but the colored mana symbols in the deck have me a wee bit concerned.
I was thinking Words of Waste and Chains of Mephistopheles. But maybe I'm thinking of a version more heavily discard based.
I used to have Liliana's Caress and Megrim, but then I realized only half of my wheels actually force a discarded hand, and most wheels reset to 7. This means cards aren't actually getting discarded all that often.
Have you thought about Forced Fruition? It seems perfect for Nekusar.
Thought about it, but I also felt that it could be potentially win-more. If someone removes Nekusar, they can proceed to combo out, and it wouldn't be under my control. In fact, that seems to be the running theme of the deck - how is this actually going to match up?
The parasite is a good call, the Dragon Mage is a bit too expensive here. I thought about running the Words enchantments, but they all felt underwhelming to me in the sense that I'll never have the extra mana floating around.
You know what's really ridiculous in a deck full of Wheels? Dream Halls is really ridiculous. You can even play your commander for free!
Now this idea is good. HOWEVER, since we're wheeling like crazy, I expect everything I have to get blown up in the process by my opponents. I guess this is okay if you're trying for chaos, but it isn't how I planned to build the deck. Thoughts?
Now this idea is good. HOWEVER, since we're wheeling like crazy, I expect everything I have to get blown up in the process by my opponents. I guess this is okay if you're trying for chaos, but it isn't how I planned to build the deck. Thoughts?
I've been playing a Storm version of bobthefunny's U/R deck (it's filled with wheels) and this card is completely broken. My friend has a Niv-Mizzet deck that is very similar and when Dream Halls is dropped in either of these decks people will probably die. Sure if they hit instant speed removal and cast it they can slow you down but that doesn't happen too much in my experience (plus your counters all turn into FoW). The only real concern is that you're 3 color instead of 2 color which makes Halls a little worse but you can tutor for it much easier. I'd say try it out and see what happens.
I've been playing a Storm version of bobthefunny's U/R deck (it's filled with wheels) and this card is completely broken. My friend has a Niv-Mizzet deck that is very similar and when Dream Halls is dropped in either of these decks people will probably die. Sure if they hit instant speed removal and cast it they can slow you down but that doesn't happen too much in my experience (plus your counters all turn into FoW). The only real concern is that you're 3 color instead of 2 color which makes Halls a little worse but you can tutor for it much easier. I'd say try it out and see what happens.
Definitely will try. Added it to the deck.
At this point, I've pretty much taken out all of the howling mines except for Teferi's Puzzle Box and Temple Bell. I also replaced the Fork effects with more damage, such as Liliana's Caress or more ramp. The goal, to break parity with the wheels, is to ramp faster and take advantage of all the extra cards being drawn.
I also cut some of the odder Wheel effects for more practical ones. IE, Incendiary Command is pretty bad since it doesn't draw 7. I believe every mass draw spell I have in the deck now is pretty solid in its own right, without too many weird conditions.
I've tested a few sample hands, and while I thought this couldn't be a competitive deck, I might've been wrong? Early game, running ~20 ramp spells really allows me to come out the gates blazing fast. It's not uncommon to have a pain card or stax card and Nekusar out by turn 3-4. And after that, the wheels start turning and this deck moves quickly. Even if Nekusar is killed, you run so much ramp that you can just keep going without skipping a beat. This makes me want to cut hyper-defensive cards, like Arcane Denial or Lightning Greaves, and just go even more nuts on the pain, wheeling, and acceleration.
EDIT:
Looking at a few more powerful stax effects to help break parity with so much wheeling -
I like pretty much all those changes. There's enough wheels and tutors you don't need the janky ones and the Stax style cards seem like a fantastic way to break symmetry though you're not going to be able to go off with Arcane Laboratory. Really wish there was a sided effect of these :/
I agree, running one on a stick is likely going to give you more valuable than a one shot effect though.
Absolutely awesome card. You can be quite clever with it and keep the board relatively contained without drawing too much hate by just limiting everyone at say 6 lands, though of course you can get really mean by dropping something like Sunder.
Yea, I know that having a Fork on a stick is pretty good, I just don't feel the need for it. I'm actually still not sure if cutting the Forks is the right idea. Early game they're kind of whatever, but once you hit your stride, they become pretty nuts. I think I should probably at least play Increasing Vengeance.
I like pretty much all those changes. There's enough wheels and tutors you don't need the janky ones and the Stax style cards seem like a fantastic way to break symmetry though you're not going to be able to go off with Arcane Laboratory. Really wish there was a sided effect of these :/
Thanks Donald. My only questions now are really in the ratios and types of cards being played. Are Howling Mines better? I don't think so, but I may be wrong. The thought is that I don't want to give my opponents cards before I have pain out, and by giving them a few cards extra a turn, they will benefit a lot more than me cycling through their hand over and over again each turn. It's kind of a weird explanation, but incremental card gains versus wheeling is very different when you're trying to map out your situation, especially if there is a stax card involved. Basically, wheels are much more disruptive where Howling Mines are just giving your opponents free cards.
I'm also not 100% sure adding in the Megrim effects is the correct choice over running Forks, but 8 out of my 12 wheel effects also discard, and each discard is worth 2 pts of damage.
I never tried Howling Mines out in my build but I run stuff like Mana Flare and Helm of Awakening and still don't think Mines are worth a slot for the reasons you mentioned. Dunno if Megrim would be worth it, maybe that artifact that draws you cards every time they discard would be better (name escapes me). I'd also probably run Notion Thief because he's absurd with any wheel effect. Yeah they don't take damage and he's at odds with what you're trying to do but casting a draw 7 with him in play should be game (especially if you have Psychosis Crawler). Basically I don't think Megrim is bad I'd just look to other stuff that supports wheels first.
I never tried Howling Mines out in my build but I run stuff like Mana Flare and Helm of Awakening and still don't think Mines are worth a slot for the reasons you mentioned. Dunno if Megrim would be worth it, maybe that artifact that draws you cards every time they discard would be better (name escapes me). I'd also probably run Notion Thief because he's absurd with any wheel effect. Yeah they don't take damage and he's at odds with what you're trying to do but casting a draw 7 with him in play should be game (especially if you have Psychosis Crawler). Basically I don't think Megrim is bad I'd just look to other stuff that supports wheels first.
Geth's Grimoire, also that new card Waste Not that will be coming out soon should be a shoe in for this deck
i have played this deck just like this before just not with this commander and in 5 colors. Their are quite a few cards you run i did not. First i don't like the lock cards here at all. The package i ran inlcuded things like Hive Mind Mana Geyser Reiterate Fork effects Turnabout and as strange as it sounds i really liked possibility storm. Also i dont see a Lotus petal thats always seemed pretty good here. i also suggest running the tutors in your colors that are amazing. Why run another shuffler thats overcosted in time reversal to draw 7 when you run yawgwin and already run twister and spiral? just run mystical tutor and chain wheel into wheel for less.... i mean in a wheel deck even a cmc 2 tutor can be mana vie cabal ritual or LED. evacuation is a card that is pretty good in a slower deck but here it just feels tossed in and out of place rift is fine because rift into wheel is killer and it can bounce problems for 2 but evacuation is always 5 your goal is to puke cheap cards off draw 7 then kill with draw 7 so cards like that to me don't fit the bill. Urzas guilt? 4 mana for that? its just not very efficient i would just run ponder find another good draw 7. I dont even really like arcane denial because this deck really wents to be tapping out any counter over cmc 0-1 doesn't seem good to me. if you really want you could run swan song or somethign like that but id still probly take a preordain or a free mana exile dork or a red ritual. things like worn powerstone colation relic and even to some extent thran dynamo dont feel good here to me they just cost to much for where you want them. maybe take that slot on the curve for the auto win of notion thief. just use the other slots for brainstorm or preordain or SDT. also Tendrils ....
i have played this deck just like this before just not with this commander and in 5 colors. Their are quite a few cards you run i did not. First i don't like the lock cards here at all. The package i ran inlcuded things like Hive Mind Mana Geyser Reiterate Fork effects Turnabout and as strange as it sounds i really liked possibility storm. Also i dont see a Lotus petal thats always seemed pretty good here. i also suggest running the tutors in your colors that are amazing. Why run another shuffler thats overcosted in time reversal to draw 7 when you run yawgwin and already run twister and spiral? just run mystical tutor and chain wheel into wheel for less.... i mean in a wheel deck even a cmc 2 tutor can be mana vie cabal ritual or LED. evacuation is a card that is pretty good in a slower deck but here it just feels tossed in and out of place rift is fine because rift into wheel is killer and it can bounce problems for 2 but evacuation is always 5 your goal is to puke cheap cards off draw 7 then kill with draw 7 so cards like that to me don't fit the bill. Urzas guilt? 4 mana for that? its just not very efficient i would just run ponder find another good draw 7. I dont even really like arcane denial because this deck really wents to be tapping out any counter over cmc 0-1 doesn't seem good to me. if you really want you could run swan song or somethign like that but id still probly take a preordain or a free mana exile dork or a red ritual. things like worn powerstone colation relic and even to some extent thran dynamo dont feel good here to me they just cost to much for where you want them. maybe take that slot on the curve for the auto win of notion thief. just use the other slots for brainstorm or preordain or SDT. also Tendrils ....
fun deck though
This is sound advice, moxnix. And also the same advice that I think I needed to see. The way I've been pushing the deck, it does almost play out like a storm deck. My only gripe is questioning whether or not this would just be an inferior version of that deck without the lock cards. The lock cards are what sets it apart from just playing Grixis storm or combo. This is more like a Grixis Ramp/Burn deck. I could probably do without Mindlock Orb though.
I will add in some more efficient cards. I also agree that some of the higher CC mana rocks could be ditched. Notion Thief should come in here. Hive Mind seems like an amazing auto-win card here as well. I'm going to revisit the deck and retune the list entirely to be more cutthroat.
EDIT:
A bit premature, but I'm making a huge +/- 16 card changes to the maindeck. This will play more like a Ramp/Combo deck now more than ever, and I think it's good enough to compete in decent-powered metagames.
Out -
Urza's Guilt
Time Reversal
Memory Jar
Mindlock Orb
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Arena of the Ancients
Evacuation
Cyclonic Rift
Lightning Greaves
Thran Dynamo
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
Liliana's Caress
Megrim
Arcane Denial
Cursed Totem
In -
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Fork
Reverberate
Twincast
Increasing Vengeance
Reiterate
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Mana Geyser
Lotus Petal
Hive Mind
Turnabout
Notion Thief
Epic Experiment
This is sound advice, moxnix. And also the same advice that I think I needed to see. The way I've been pushing the deck, it does almost play out like a storm deck. My only gripe is questioning whether or not this would just be an inferior version of that deck without the lock cards. The lock cards are what sets it apart from just playing Grixis storm or combo. This is more like a Grixis Ramp/Burn deck. I could probably do without Mindlock Orb though.
I will add in some more efficient cards. I also agree that some of the higher CC mana rocks could be ditched. Notion Thief should come in here. Hive Mind seems like an amazing auto-win card here as well. I'm going to revisit the deck and retune the list entirely to be more cutthroat.
EDIT:
A bit premature, but I'm making a huge +/- 16 card changes to the maindeck. This will play more like a Ramp/Combo deck now more than ever, and I think it's good enough to compete in decent-powered metagames.
Out -
Urza's Guilt
Time Reversal
Memory Jar
Mindlock Orb
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Arena of the Ancients
Evacuation
Cyclonic Rift
Lightning Greaves
Thran Dynamo
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
Liliana's Caress
Megrim
Arcane Denial
Cursed Totem
In -
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Fork
Reverberate
Twincast
Increasing Vengeance
Reiterate
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Mana Geyser
Lotus Petal
Hive Mind
Turnabout
Notion Thief
Epic Experiment
good changes the only cut a question is Lilly's caress at 2 mana it's pretty good. I would however use minds desire/ tendrils possibly the mama flare Donald mentioned. What sets you apart from a typical faster AN based storm deck is your resilant it is not. Your wheel density combine with a slower curve from no ant lets you eat control cards all game. Also
Another suggestion that will seem odd . Telepathy. Mostly becuase you wheel so much the information is absolutely invałuable. And this card isn't very good but Leyline of anticipation is pretty funny in tgis kind of deck. Start copying tome spiral into copying time spiral into flashing petals in between spiral untaps and then flipping your entire deck with desire and tendrils killing the whole board while your dead on the stack to your original spirals draw due to MD. This decks pretty fun I've played it alot of differnt ways. I'll tell you now Once you figured out how to use it possibility storm gets quite silly and with dream
Halls draw 7s etc it's too much fun to pass up.
1 Nekusar, the Mindrazer
//Busted Spells
1 Notion Thief
1 Dream Halls
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Temple Bell
1 Otherworld Atlas
//Massive Wheels
1 Winds of Change
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Whispering Madness
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Time Reversal
1 Time Spiral
//Forks
1 Twincast
1 Fork
1 Reverberate
1 Increasing Vengeance
1 Reiterate
//Pain
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Molten Psyche
1 Phyrexian Tyranny
1 Spiteful Visions
1 Psychosis Crawler
//Walks
1 Time Warp
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Capture of Jingzhou
//Countermagic
1 Pact of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mana Drain
//Show Stoppers
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Torpor Orb
1 Stranglehold
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Impulse
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Grim Tutor
//Accleration
1 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Izzet Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Gilded Lotus
//Lands
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 River of Tears
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Graven Cairns
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Underground River
1 Shivan Reef
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
---
Basic Strategy
1. Ramp into wheels. Wheels draw into more ramp, etc etc.
2. Cast Nekusar and pain permanents.
3. Setup heavy wheeling to burn or poison opponents out.
Broken Paths To Victory
A. Dream Halls
Perhaps the most busted card in this deck, having this in play means you are well on your way to victory. Wheeling draws you a ton of cards, which you can then play for free, allowing you to effectively power through the majority of your deck with ease. Important support card: Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir.
B. Mind Over Matter
A powerful enabler that allows you to untap artifact mana and lands at a whim. Paired with the heavy amount of card draw, MoM performs a similar role to Dream Halls. Less risky, but not as broken. This enchantment also creates nearly infinite mana artifact ramp cards, and has its own infinite with Temple Bell.
C. Hive Mind
An enabler in the sense that you'll cast less wheels while this is in play. Cast a single wheel, and deal up to 28 damage with Nekusar in play. Note that this card is dangerous, and I wouldn't cast it until you're ready to go off.
D. Infect Poison (Tainted Strike / Phyresis / Glistening Oil)
An alternative method to winning via burn. These are cheap enablers that also reduce the cost of winning by a large margin. Cast them on Nekusar before performing two wheels. This is by far one of the riskiest plays - I may end up taking these out if it's too easy to deal with Nekusar.
E. Notion Thief
EOT flash this guy in and draw up to 28 cards with your next wheel. From there, you can proceed to win via Psychosis Crawler or by setting up a big wheeling turn and then bouncing Notion Thief to your hand with Chain of Vapor.
Things to Keep in Mind
This is a chaos combo deck. Don't fall in love with your hands. If there's a pain card, and it's not convenient to cast, don't be afraid to wheel it away. The point is to build large amounts of mana first. Due to the random nature of the deck, you can't expect to have a linear game plan at all, so embrace what the heart of the cards gives you.
Additional Ideas
Disruptive elements could be added to the deck as well. Thinking of:
Arena of the Ancients
Torpor Orb
Cursed Totem
Stranglehold
Land Equilibrium
They were once in the deck but were now taken out to add in more acceleration.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
have you considered additional ways of dealing damage, such as Niv-Mizzet? i can see your general getting tucked or killed over and over again being a problem. adding lightning greaves should help too.
There are also unusually few tutors, wouldn't a few set up an alternative combo win should your general lack a window to do his thing?
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
Thanks, it's what a quick gatherer search and some tinkering for an hour made.
I did consider playing more single-target damage outlets, but I just felt that they didn't do enough. The ones in the deck are aimed at hurting the table all at once, so I don't have to work harder for my wins. As it is, this list already looks difficult to win with in a high-powered meta.
And yes, one of my concerns was having to re-cast Nekusar over and over again. Honestly, his ability is interchangeable with the Underworld Dreams-type cards in the list already, so having just one out should be enough to deal some serious damage. Having him around only compounds that ability. But again, this is all baseless until I can give the deck a test run.
Yes, those are valid concerns. Lightning Greaves should be in this list. Perhaps tutors as well. I think I was caught up in the fact that I'm running both Mindlock Orb and Strangehold (which in hindsight, kind of hurts since I'm running all 9 fetches). Cards like Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Mystical Tutor should probably be in the deck - that way I can get rid of some of the more expensive draw 7-s.
On that thought - I should be running Insidious Dreams. That looks to be the ultimate setup card for a big, big turn.
EDIT: based on your guys' feedback...
- Minds Aglow
- Prosperity
- Wheel of Fate
- Incindiary Command
- Magus of the Jar
- Past in Flames
+ Imperial Seal
+ Vampiric Tutor
+ Demonic Tutor
+ Insidious Dreams
+ Arcane Denial
+ Swan Song
Just being realistic here, the cards I cut are pretty underwhelming in their own rights - especially Prosperity and Minds Aglow. I want to be netting more cards than I'm paying for, and neither of those cards are worth tapping out for (I think). The tutors are important for finding the damage-combo pieces, but both Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal on turn 1 read: put target Mana Crypt on top of your library haha. Either way, it'd be folly not to play these even with Mindlock Orb in the deck. Ironically, I may be using my tutors to GET it. I chose black tutors only because there are things I want to fetch outside of instants and sorceries.
MCR, Double posting is only allowed after 48 hours in the EDH forum. Creating a second account (BlueVortex) to have a conversation with yourself is still double posting. Please do not. -Galspanic
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
i like the changes. i'm not entirely sure about the counterspell choices, but i'm guessing it's because you're a 3-color deck so you're trying to keep the costs light. i would think about playing some more free counters, like commandeer or misdirection. they'll be easier to cast.
i also agree that some of the cruddier draw spells can be cut. you might want to check out Gaka's thread for more ideas too. you guys have lists that look pretty close, though yours is changing now.
still think you should be playing lightning greaves in the very least.
MCR, Double posting is only allowed after 48 hours in the EDH forum. Creating a second account (BlueVortex) to have a conversation with yourself is still double posting. Please do not. -Galspanic
I like the changes, although am curious on your opinion concerning Jace Beleren, does he do enough and would Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas maybe do more for you? It's probably not necessary, but would helm combo or in the least Leyline of the Void fit in? You may want an a way to exile all the cards they draw and discard.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
For sure. Added in Misdirection and Fellwar Stone over Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall. Realistically, those scenarios will be too rare to actually see happen.
I have this sort of crazy idea of booting some of the Howling Mine effects in favor of Fork effects. Why? Because you don't really want your opponents drawing extra cards when you don't have pain out already. Fork effects double as counters for counters, let you abuse the same things your opponents are abusing, and can double the effects of your wheels - worth way more than Howling Mine I would think. Let me know if I'm crazy though.
This is what I have in mind:
Howling Mine -> Fork
Anvil of Bogardan -> Reverberate
Kami of the Crescent Moon -> Twincast
EDIT:
Mindlock Orb is too good to pass up I think, even when hurting myself. In a more competitive metagame, tutors are rampant, and these type of cards slow them down to a crawl. This is a rare deck that can actually afford to run it.
Jace Beleren is a howling mine effect, which to BlueVortex's comment, I think I might end up removing all howling mines eventually. They're just too slow, don't hit hard enough, and come out before I get my pain online.
Tezzeret the Seeker helps me fetch out some of my most important cards, such as Temple Bell to go with Mind Over Matter, Lightning Greaves when I put it back in, Mindlock Orb against combo, Torpor Orb or Cursed Totem against annoying commanders, and untaps Mana Vault type cards when I'm going off. I think he's a huge asset to this list.
About the Helm+Leyline combo, I feel that it's slightly lame and unnecessary. The Leyline SORT of helps the deck in that it can negate GY strategies, but I've never liked how relatively "meh" Helm is by itself. I'd prefer to stay on strategy and maximize.
Jace Beleren -> Lightning Greaves
EDIT 2:
I should probably be playing Land Equilibrium.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
EDIT: Cavern of Souls likely would love to be here.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
I just wanted to throw this out there for everyone to see, since there's blaring red text all over my posts. Yes, I did create a second account to bump myself and yes, I did think I was really clever while I was doing it. In hindsight, it was pretty dumb and I didn't even need to do such a ridiculous thing. I saw my post start slipping off the page and was hoping to keep it alive and running. So to those offended or weirded out, I apologize for becoming a bit overzealous.
I would be wary about running an overload of Fork effects, as this deck isn't necessarily all about that. I just added in a few as value plays and flexibility, and are hopefully better than Howling Mines.
Hm, good idea, though I don't know if I'll ever have that mana sitting around. I've always found the card to be under-par, unless playing with Wizards that have ETB abilities. Usually I would just say yes, but the colored mana symbols in the deck have me a wee bit concerned.
I used to have Liliana's Caress and Megrim, but then I realized only half of my wheels actually force a discarded hand, and most wheels reset to 7. This means cards aren't actually getting discarded all that often.
Thought about it, but I also felt that it could be potentially win-more. If someone removes Nekusar, they can proceed to combo out, and it wouldn't be under my control. In fact, that seems to be the running theme of the deck - how is this actually going to match up?
The parasite is a good call, the Dragon Mage is a bit too expensive here. I thought about running the Words enchantments, but they all felt underwhelming to me in the sense that I'll never have the extra mana floating around.
Now this idea is good. HOWEVER, since we're wheeling like crazy, I expect everything I have to get blown up in the process by my opponents. I guess this is okay if you're trying for chaos, but it isn't how I planned to build the deck. Thoughts?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I've been playing a Storm version of bobthefunny's U/R deck (it's filled with wheels) and this card is completely broken. My friend has a Niv-Mizzet deck that is very similar and when Dream Halls is dropped in either of these decks people will probably die. Sure if they hit instant speed removal and cast it they can slow you down but that doesn't happen too much in my experience (plus your counters all turn into FoW). The only real concern is that you're 3 color instead of 2 color which makes Halls a little worse but you can tutor for it much easier. I'd say try it out and see what happens.
Definitely will try. Added it to the deck.
At this point, I've pretty much taken out all of the howling mines except for Teferi's Puzzle Box and Temple Bell. I also replaced the Fork effects with more damage, such as Liliana's Caress or more ramp. The goal, to break parity with the wheels, is to ramp faster and take advantage of all the extra cards being drawn.
I also cut some of the odder Wheel effects for more practical ones. IE, Incendiary Command is pretty bad since it doesn't draw 7. I believe every mass draw spell I have in the deck now is pretty solid in its own right, without too many weird conditions.
I've tested a few sample hands, and while I thought this couldn't be a competitive deck, I might've been wrong? Early game, running ~20 ramp spells really allows me to come out the gates blazing fast. It's not uncommon to have a pain card or stax card and Nekusar out by turn 3-4. And after that, the wheels start turning and this deck moves quickly. Even if Nekusar is killed, you run so much ramp that you can just keep going without skipping a beat. This makes me want to cut hyper-defensive cards, like Arcane Denial or Lightning Greaves, and just go even more nuts on the pain, wheeling, and acceleration.
EDIT:
Looking at a few more powerful stax effects to help break parity with so much wheeling -
Land Equilibrium
In the Eye of Chaos
Nether Void
Mana Web
Arcane Laboratory
Also thinking about more 1-shot acceleration, like Mana Geyser, Seething Song and Rain of Filth.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Very good! I think this should be put in the deck! I knew there were a bunch of these oddball stax cards that I was missing.
Yea, I know that having a Fork on a stick is pretty good, I just don't feel the need for it. I'm actually still not sure if cutting the Forks is the right idea. Early game they're kind of whatever, but once you hit your stride, they become pretty nuts. I think I should probably at least play Increasing Vengeance.
Close, but not quite. Look at King Leoric from Diablo 3.
Thanks Donald. My only questions now are really in the ratios and types of cards being played. Are Howling Mines better? I don't think so, but I may be wrong. The thought is that I don't want to give my opponents cards before I have pain out, and by giving them a few cards extra a turn, they will benefit a lot more than me cycling through their hand over and over again each turn. It's kind of a weird explanation, but incremental card gains versus wheeling is very different when you're trying to map out your situation, especially if there is a stax card involved. Basically, wheels are much more disruptive where Howling Mines are just giving your opponents free cards.
I'm also not 100% sure adding in the Megrim effects is the correct choice over running Forks, but 8 out of my 12 wheel effects also discard, and each discard is worth 2 pts of damage.
Last points of change, probably going to take out Arcane Denial for Increasing Vengeance and Lightning Greaves for Overburden.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Geth's Grimoire, also that new card Waste Not that will be coming out soon should be a shoe in for this deck
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
fun deck though
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
This is sound advice, moxnix. And also the same advice that I think I needed to see. The way I've been pushing the deck, it does almost play out like a storm deck. My only gripe is questioning whether or not this would just be an inferior version of that deck without the lock cards. The lock cards are what sets it apart from just playing Grixis storm or combo. This is more like a Grixis Ramp/Burn deck. I could probably do without Mindlock Orb though.
I will add in some more efficient cards. I also agree that some of the higher CC mana rocks could be ditched. Notion Thief should come in here. Hive Mind seems like an amazing auto-win card here as well. I'm going to revisit the deck and retune the list entirely to be more cutthroat.
EDIT:
A bit premature, but I'm making a huge +/- 16 card changes to the maindeck. This will play more like a Ramp/Combo deck now more than ever, and I think it's good enough to compete in decent-powered metagames.
Out -
Urza's Guilt
Time Reversal
Memory Jar
Mindlock Orb
Teferi's Puzzle Box
Arena of the Ancients
Evacuation
Cyclonic Rift
Lightning Greaves
Thran Dynamo
Coalition Relic
Worn Powerstone
Liliana's Caress
Megrim
Arcane Denial
Cursed Totem
In -
Mystical Tutor
Personal Tutor
Fork
Reverberate
Twincast
Increasing Vengeance
Reiterate
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Mana Geyser
Lotus Petal
Hive Mind
Turnabout
Notion Thief
Epic Experiment
EDIT 2:
Realized that if I'm just going to shoot for speed, I could probably not run Torpor Orb or Stranglehold. Adding in Seething Song and Simian Spirit Guide. Also put on the [Competitive] tag. Ish just got real.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
good changes the only cut a question is Lilly's caress at 2 mana it's pretty good. I would however use minds desire/ tendrils possibly the mama flare Donald mentioned. What sets you apart from a typical faster AN based storm deck is your resilant it is not. Your wheel density combine with a slower curve from no ant lets you eat control cards all game. Also
Another suggestion that will seem odd . Telepathy. Mostly becuase you wheel so much the information is absolutely invałuable. And this card isn't very good but Leyline of anticipation is pretty funny in tgis kind of deck. Start copying tome spiral into copying time spiral into flashing petals in between spiral untaps and then flipping your entire deck with desire and tendrils killing the whole board while your dead on the stack to your original spirals draw due to MD. This decks pretty fun I've played it alot of differnt ways. I'll tell you now Once you figured out how to use it possibility storm gets quite silly and with dream
Halls draw 7s etc it's too much fun to pass up.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429