One thing I would suggest for all Prossh lists is to include a healthy amount of card draw. After playing a list similar to this one, the biggest problem is keeping a steady flow of threats. It's too easy to wrath Prossh or use snipe removal on our important enchantments / artifacts. I've been relying a lot more on the Natural Order -> Craterhoof play to win games, usually after the second cast of Prossh. I also think the inclusion of more disruption elements would also be helpful. After scouring some of the French 1v1 lists, the inclusion of Blood Moon might be a decent way to halt decks temporarily while you 1-shot each person. Another set of cards I've been looking at to bypass these issues are haste enablers. While they're pretty "meh", I think they help immensely in combating sweepers. The question then comes: do we play cheap haste enablers to surprise burst with Prossh (ie Mass Hysteria)? Do we play resilient / well-costed enablers (ie Fervor)? Or do we play some crazy enablers like Ogre Battledriver, which also happens to combo with Food Chain?
I'm not 100% sold on Xenagos yet, although he is a welcome, indestructible threat that is a nice change of pace from the otherwise fragile Beastmaster / Animosity / Coat. The issue is that Prossh becomes "useless" after you snipe someone, leading me to believe that a simple Berserk / Hit/Run / Tears of Rage would just be more effective.
I've been pretty lukewarm to haste enablers, but I do play a more combo focused deck. Even when I win with Craterhoof Behemoth, it's because I've generated a HUGE amount of creatures the turn before. I know this is risky, but so far I haven't been blown out to bad, and if I am, then so was someone else. But, I have toyed with them, and I left one in my deck, Urabrask the Hidden, so I can have something to just plop down next to Craterhoof Behemoth if I Tooth and Nail.
BNG was a very disappointing set in my eyes, and doubly so for Prossh. I think the new Xenagos has some promise in the right Prossh build, and Feverous may have that build. Mine is much less focused on creatures so I will have to pass, as it'd ONLY be good with Prossh in my deck and only once. It's on my radar though, as I could be wrong. But yes, berserk may be just as good in that slot.
My LGS has a Gaea's Cradle and I want it so bad, but the price tag is scary. Unfortunately, it'd be put in my Polukranos deck, as I think I'd get about 1000% more mileage out of it in that deck, than my Prossh deck. Great card, wish I had 2-3 of them.:nod:
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One thing I would suggest for all Prossh lists is to include a healthy amount of card draw. After playing a list similar to this one, the biggest problem is keeping a steady flow of threats. It's too easy to wrath Prossh or use snipe removal on our important enchantments / artifacts. I've been relying a lot more on the Natural Order -> Craterhoof play to win games, usually after the second cast of Prossh. I also think the inclusion of more disruption elements would also be helpful. After scouring some of the French 1v1 lists, the inclusion of Blood Moon might be a decent way to halt decks temporarily while you 1-shot each person. Another set of cards I've been looking at to bypass these issues are haste enablers. While they're pretty "meh", I think they help immensely in combating sweepers. The question then comes: do we play cheap haste enablers to surprise burst with Prossh (ie Mass Hysteria)? Do we play resilient / well-costed enablers (ie Fervor)? Or do we play some crazy enablers like Ogre Battledriver, which also happens to combo with Food Chain?
I'm not 100% sold on Xenagos yet, although he is a welcome, indestructible threat that is a nice change of pace from the otherwise fragile Beastmaster / Animosity / Coat. The issue is that Prossh becomes "useless" after you snipe someone, leading me to believe that a simple Berserk / Hit/Run / Tears of Rage would just be more effective.
The card draw that I'm running in my list is pretty bonkers. I agree that it absolutely needs to be in there, but between Disciple of Bolas, Skullmulcher, Skullclamp, Fecundity, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, and Garruk, Primal Hunter, plus the tutors (Survival of the Fittest, Diabolic Intent, Tooth and Nail, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Runescarred Demon) I don't have any problem with card draw. At all. I usually actually burn my tutors on card draw engines instead of wincons. If I'm drawing 6+ cards off of 1 I'm really likely to hit a wincon, and have my hand refilled instead of burning a tutor on a wincon, have it countered/disrupted and be left with squat. The people I play against know my list pretty well too so the card draw usually goes off because they want to hold their disruption for the Food Chain.
I don't play the snipe route, that's more big's style than mine. My list is super early huge threat, preferably killing the entire table at once through Craterhoof, Beastmaster, or going infinite with Food Chain. I think if you're going that route then a more disruptive style would be good. I would almost recommend a stax list, honestly. You can run things like Contamination and Braids, Cabal Minion without the bat of an eye because of the amount of permanents this list tends to generate.
The haste enablers I haven't seemed to need yet, other than Sarkhan Vol. Most people don't wrath once Prossh hits, so I have another turn to do something degenerate. They know if they wrath I just cast him again and get even more kobolds ^.^ I tested the Battledriver, and it just didn't work. It was always there, but it forced me to swing that turn to take advantage of it, and the power it offered wasn't enough to kill anyone so it got cut. I don't like Fervor, it doesn't do anything other than haste. If you're going to run haste than I would recommend either Sarkhan Vol, Anger (can pitch to Survival) or Urabrask, like big's running. These all fill more than 1 role, hence them being viable. And Xenagos is superior to all the 1 shot effects because it sticks, and offers that bonus over and over. I mean, sure, you can one shot someone the turn Prossh comes into play with Xenagos being there, but you also get to at least 10 someone else with him the next turn, and the one after, as long as Xenagos sticks. I think it's infinitely superior to any type of 1 shot effect, without question.
You're welcome to post your list if you want any recommendations! We'd both be happy to go over it with you.
I've been pretty lukewarm to haste enablers, but I do play a more combo focused deck. Even when I win with Craterhoof Behemoth, it's because I've generated a HUGE amount of creatures the turn before. I know this is risky, but so far I haven't been blown out to bad, and if I am, then so was someone else. But, I have toyed with them, and I left one in my deck, Urabrask the Hidden, so I can have something to just plop down next to Craterhoof Behemoth if I Tooth and Nail.
BNG was a very disappointing set in my eyes, and doubly so for Prossh. I think the new Xenagos has some promise in the right Prossh build, and Feverous may have that build. Mine is much less focused on creatures so I will have to pass, as it'd ONLY be good with Prossh in my deck and only once. It's on my radar though, as I could be wrong. But yes, berserk may be just as good in that slot.
My LGS has a Gaea's Cradle and I want it so bad, but the price tag is scary. Unfortunately, it'd be put in my Polukranos deck, as I think I'd get about 1000% more mileage out of it in that deck, than my Prossh deck. Great card, wish I had 2-3 of them.:nod:
Heh, I know what you mean. I'm working on finishing out my Ghave, Guru of Spores Stax list (It's really, really mean >.< I love it XD) and I'd love to have one for that too. I got mine for $90 and it was in pretty good shape, so I"m happy.Can't wait to test it out
That's interesting that your playgroup doesn't wrath Prossh. I think I've already put the fear of god in them - they tend to blow everything I have up (especially mana ramp) to try and keep me down. I don't play Survival / Pod personally; I think those two are better reserved for a creature-centric general (imo), like Adun or Karador. I do play Natural Order, Chord of Calling, and Tooth and Nail as my big game-winners though.
Let me talk about my little journey with Prossh, since I've been messing with lists for the past two months and I still haven't come to a conclusion. Maybe you guys can help me out.
My issue with Stax Prossh is that stax is hard to play in general. The strongest card with him is undoubtedly Possessed Portal. Unfortunately, this deck is a little wonky because the general costs so much mana and needs a lot of things to go correctly in order to profit from the circumstances. Because he actually exceeds the cost of the lock pieces, it's always awkward to set up the scenarios, and of course you're more vulnerable to sweepers than ever. It's rough to play MLD / land hate because Prossh needs the mana. That said, the deck still works okay. Being able to basically counteract Contamination and Possessed Portal are pretty huge.
I also worked on a Blitz Food Chain list which was actually pretty strong until people started to catch on to it. It ran a ton of mana dorks, anti-countermagic (yes, even REB), followed by all of the creature-based FC combo enablers. Because Food Chain can only be used to cast creatures, that's when I learned the value of Ogre Battledriver. In ben's primer, he mentions that he's sometimes 1 or 2 mana short of winning - having all creature-based win conditions, backed by mana dorks to sacrifice to Food Chain for acceleration, makes the deck extremely fast and volatile. Unfortunately it's a glass-cannon archetype that only works a few times before people learn how to stop you. It's purely an inferior version of Hermit Druid.
Lastly, aggro Prossh is interesting. It's almost like a weird ramp-hyper-voltron deck that has access to several broken plays and mini-combos. It's kind of somewhere in between Maelstrom Wanderer and Damia. It's a rush to play, which I like, but can also be fragile (especially the combo portion). That's why I want to fill the deck with resilience, redundancy, and threat density. I have a handful of slots that I want to dedicate to TRUE threats or broken cards that lock the game down that Prossh can safely ignore. Examples of these might be The Abyss and Braids, Cabal Minion. The irony is that in aggro Prossh, you want to keep all of your tokens - and therin lies my dilemma. I'm not entirely sure you can have both. Prossh is the greatest threat on his own, but unfortunately there are only a select few cards that really jive with him (Beasmaster Ascension and friends). Not crazy about the 1-shot effects, although I would run Berserk since it has its uses outside of killing a player. I'm not sure what other avenue to look down: do I dedicate those extra slots to more combos? Do I try to find another avenue of attack? Or should I just put in more resilience and removal? I kind of want to make a soft-lock list that includes backbreaking cards like Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, The Abyss, and a few other hyper-annoying cards to keep my opponents down while I bash them over and over again. Otherwise, I'm not sure that this deck has an advantage over its blue counterparts.
That's interesting that your playgroup doesn't wrath Prossh. I think I've already put the fear of god in them - they tend to blow everything I have up (especially mana ramp) to try and keep me down. I don't play Survival / Pod personally; I think those two are better reserved for a creature-centric general (imo), like Adun or Karador. I do play Natural Order, Chord of Calling, and Tooth and Nail as my big game-winners though.
Let me talk about my little journey with Prossh, since I've been messing with lists for the past two months and I still haven't come to a conclusion. Maybe you guys can help me out.
My issue with Stax Prossh is that stax is hard to play in general. The strongest card with him is undoubtedly Possessed Portal. Unfortunately, this deck is a little wonky because the general costs so much mana and needs a lot of things to go correctly in order to profit from the circumstances. Because he actually exceeds the cost of the lock pieces, it's always awkward to set up the scenarios, and of course you're more vulnerable to sweepers than ever. It's rough to play MLD / land hate because Prossh needs the mana. That said, the deck still works okay. Being able to basically counteract Contamination and Possessed Portal are pretty huge.
I also worked on a Blitz Food Chain list which was actually pretty strong until people started to catch on to it. It ran a ton of mana dorks, anti-countermagic (yes, even REB), followed by all of the creature-based FC combo enablers. Because Food Chain can only be used to cast creatures, that's when I learned the value of Ogre Battledriver. In ben's primer, he mentions that he's sometimes 1 or 2 mana short of winning - having all creature-based win conditions, backed by mana dorks to sacrifice to Food Chain for acceleration, makes the deck extremely fast and volatile. Unfortunately it's a glass-cannon archetype that only works a few times before people learn how to stop you. It's purely an inferior version of Hermit Druid.
Lastly, aggro Prossh is interesting. It's almost like a weird ramp-hyper-voltron deck that has access to several broken plays and mini-combos. It's kind of somewhere in between Maelstrom Wanderer and Damia. It's a rush to play, which I like, but can also be fragile (especially the combo portion). That's why I want to fill the deck with resilience, redundancy, and threat density. I have a handful of slots that I want to dedicate to TRUE threats or broken cards that lock the game down that Prossh can safely ignore. Examples of these might be The Abyss and Braids, Cabal Minion. The irony is that in aggro Prossh, you want to keep all of your tokens - and therin lies my dilemma. I'm not entirely sure you can have both. Prossh is the greatest threat on his own, but unfortunately there are only a select few cards that really jive with him (Beasmaster Ascension and friends). Not crazy about the 1-shot effects, although I would run Berserk since it has its uses outside of killing a player. I'm not sure what other avenue to look down: do I dedicate those extra slots to more combos? Do I try to find another avenue of attack? Or should I just put in more resilience and removal? I kind of want to make a soft-lock list that includes backbreaking cards like Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, The Abyss, and a few other hyper-annoying cards to keep my opponents down while I bash them over and over again. Otherwise, I'm not sure that this deck has an advantage over its blue counterparts.
Questions
Thanks guys!
It sounds like you're trying to mix a bunch of strategies into one deck, which I haven't found to be that effective in my experience. Trying to play a smash deck then throwing in something like Torpor Orb just neuters half the deck because a lot of the wincons for that stile of deck are CIPT abilities (Craterhoof, Purphorous, Tooth and Nail etc). Trying to play a control list then putting token synergy cards in also doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If I were in your position I would focus on building 1 deck with 1 strategy, and only putting cards in that benefit that strategy. The list I came up with is a hyper-ramp smash list with a couple of peices of spot removal if something truly horrible hits the board. It's basically an aggro list with a combo thrown in for resiliency, so Aggro/Combo. Big's list is a Control/Combo list focused on blowing out other people's resources until he can win with Food Chain or Craterhoff or whatever.
If you did do a stax list then I would play Stax/Combo, and cut every wincon other than Food chain+purphoros/Goblin Bombardment, Craterhoof, and maybe Exsanguinate and fill the deck with stax effects.
It really does sound like you need to focus on one of the above strategies instead of all 3. Putting all 3 types of cards in the deck makes the potency of any 1 strategy a lot weaker, hence it's not nearly as effective.
My playgroup and I have been playing for almost 6 years together now and all of their decks are hyper-competitive. With my list I"m now winning more than 50% of the games I play against them. It's definitely effective, I have no hesitations about my list. I would try one of ours out if you get a chance, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Again, if you feel like posting your list I'm sure we can go over it and offer some suggestions ^.^
It sounds like you're trying to mix a bunch of strategies into one deck, which I haven't found to be that effective in my experience. Trying to play a smash deck then throwing in something like Torpor Orb just neuters half the deck because a lot of the wincons for that stile of deck are CIPT abilities (Craterhoof, Purphorous, Tooth and Nail etc). Trying to play a control list then putting token synergy cards in also doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If I were in your position I would focus on building 1 deck with 1 strategy, and only putting cards in that benefit that strategy. The list I came up with is a hyper-ramp smash list with a couple of peices of spot removal if something truly horrible hits the board. It's basically an aggro list with a combo thrown in for resiliency, so Aggro/Combo. Big's list is a Control/Combo list focused on blowing out other people's resources until he can win with Food Chain or Craterhoff or whatever.
If you did do a stax list then I would play Stax/Combo, and cut every wincon other than Food chain+purphoros/Goblin Bombardment, Craterhoof, and maybe Exsanguinate and fill the deck with stax effects.
It really does sound like you need to focus on one of the above strategies instead of all 3. Putting all 3 types of cards in the deck makes the potency of any 1 strategy a lot weaker, hence it's not nearly as effective.
My playgroup and I have been playing for almost 6 years together now and all of their decks are hyper-competitive. With my list I"m now winning more than 50% of the games I play against them. It's definitely effective, I have no hesitations about my list. I would try one of ours out if you get a chance, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Again, if you feel like posting your list I'm sure we can go over it and offer some suggestions ^.^
Yea you are absolutely right. I've been trying to fit in as many good strategies as I can, causing me to really limit the power of each potential set of plays. Sage advice
Anyways, here's the Stax version of the list I've basically been working on for the past month or so. It's in a solid spot, but could use some spitshine before I can say that I'm truly happy with it. Your suggestion of only playing Food Chain and Craterhoof was EXACTLY how I had my list set up, so I think we're mentally on the same page haha.
The stax cards I chose because they are the ones that I can break parity with. Cards like Winter Orb are pretty rough even for us, so I tried to avoid overly-symmetrical effects. I play lots of smoothing card draw and lots of ramp - I think it's one of the keys to this archetype's success. The best card in the deck without a doubt is Possessed Portal, and it has won me more games than anything else (Contamination takes a close second). I've included a few other big token producers to break parity with said cards. I also might be a bit overkill on basics.
Note that I play Natural Order and Pod in a list with very few creatures - I generally use it on Prossh since he has no other function other than to make tokens and combo with finishers. It also gives me additional sac outlets for continuing to play Prossh for more tokens.
1) Have any of you had issues with getting set back pretty hard by Vandalblast/Austere Command/Bane of Progress? I've been afraid of ending up on the wrong end of them quite a few times, so I've focused hard on land ramp instead of mana rocks to do the dirty things that Prossh does.
2) Would you guys be interested in seeing a token-focused list and offering feedback? It's performed far beyond my expectations, but I feel like more sets of eyes on it would help me focus it a little bit better instead of "oops, I hit Tooth and Nail/Birthing Pod" every game.
1) I haven't, but I know my meta very well, and can play around them. On Wednesday I way over extended my mana rocks in one game, but only because I knew they were safe. Ramping without mana rock is fine, but you'll lose a bit of explosiveness. Also, I like ramp like Wood Elves or Farhaven Elf as it leaves some fodder behind later, but traditional ramp is good too. It really depends on your meta, if it's full of Bane of Progress, and Austere Command I wouldn't fault you from moving away from mana rocks.
2) Of course! I think tokens is a great way to take Prossh.
@MCR: I've never considered Prossh as an all out stax deck, I do love Grave Pact in my list though. People just see Grave Pact come down, make the simple connection with my general and immediately panic, but that's the closest I've come to stax. I can't make any suggestions, but it's an interesting list to look through.:thumbsup:
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The plan is simple: ramp hard in the first 3-4 turns, tutor for a card draw engine, and just slam value permanents until I can find or tutor for Pod, Warp World, or T&N, usually around turns 7-9. The main thing I've run into is not necessarily needing the token double enchants...they're beginning to feel like win-more cards and they set me back a turn if I want to set up a nice Prossh cast. However, landing them in a long game or off a Warp World or big mana turn with Xenagos...I don't know. I'm attached to them because BIG DUMB THINGS, but I probably shouldn't be in the name of brutal efficiency.
Other things that come in and out at will:
Sepulchral Primordial and Molten Primordial: my meta is literally awash with blue. The thing is most times, there aren't going to be big value creatures in the yard or on the board, except for the times I don't have them in my deck (Avacyn showed up two nights ago. I was sad beyond words). I go back and forth.
Rampaging Baloths: For the amount of land-based ramp I have, I'm kinda surprised I'm not playing them. I originally told myself I was waiting until I picked up fetches, but it honestly shouldn't matter because I can spike tons of value from a ton of sources in my deck. The other problem...
Dragonlair Spider: ...is that there's an embarrassment of riches in the token-generating 6-drop slot. Prossh obviously, Wurmcoil leaving value behind after a wrath, Grave Titan dumping tokens everywhere, Dragon Broodmother sitting there looking pretty and quietly building an air defense force before Craterhoof shows up, and the list goes on. I even ended up cutting Broodmate Dragon just 'cause there's too much good stuff. How much is too much?
Urabrask the Hidden: Honestly, I have to actually find one first. But there aren't very many times that I absolutely NEED the haste to get things done. I've been through a ton of them through the development of the deck (Hammer of Purphoros, Fires of Yavimaya, Fervor, Anger, Ogre Battledriver, etc).
First, I love me some Rogue's Passage, that card will just win a game one night for you. But it's a bit of a heavy investment, so it's up to you, but it's one of my favorite ways to ensure I kill someone. Next, I'd add a Food Chain. Yes, it's a dirty infinite combo, but you already have one in there, and Food Chain is good enough that it'll help your deck function regardless. Imagine having it out, and just using tokens laying around to cast more creatures than you normally could have.
The plan is simple: ramp hard in the first 3-4 turns, tutor for a card draw engine, and just slam value permanents until I can find or tutor for Pod, Warp World, or T&N, usually around turns 7-9. The main thing I've run into is not necessarily needing the token double enchants...they're beginning to feel like win-more cards and they set me back a turn if I want to set up a nice Prossh cast. However, landing them in a long game or off a Warp World or big mana turn with Xenagos...I don't know. I'm attached to them because BIG DUMB THINGS, but I probably shouldn't be in the name of brutal efficiency.
I would cut Primal Vigor, if you're feeling this way then 3 doubling enchantments is probably too many, and Primal Vigor does affect everyone, so minus well cut the symmetrical one in favor of keeping the two that ONLY help you.
Other things that come in and out at will:
Sepulchral Primordial and Molten Primordial: my meta is literally awash with blue. The thing is most times, there aren't going to be big value creatures in the yard or on the board, except for the times I don't have them in my deck (Avacyn showed up two nights ago. I was sad beyond words). I go back and forth.
I'm kinda meh on both of these cards, I'd just leave them out permanently. I don't think stealing cards out of the yard is something this deck wants to do, same with stealing other creatures. It does plenty on its own.
Rampaging Baloths: For the amount of land-based ramp I have, I'm kinda surprised I'm not playing them. I originally told myself I was waiting until I picked up fetches, but it honestly shouldn't matter because I can spike tons of value from a ton of sources in my deck. The other problem...
Even with fetches this guy doesn't quite do enough for me. I think he reads better than he actually plays.
Dragonlair Spider: ...is that there's an embarrassment of riches in the token-generating 6-drop slot. Prossh obviously, Wurmcoil leaving value behind after a wrath, Grave Titan dumping tokens everywhere, Dragon Broodmother sitting there looking pretty and quietly building an air defense force before Craterhoof shows up, and the list goes on. I even ended up cutting Broodmate Dragon just 'cause there's too much good stuff. How much is too much?
You're very right, there are a lot of good six drops. I think Dragonlair Spider is not as good as anything you mentioned. I'd just keep the best X amount of 6 drops, and ignore the rest. Finding that perfect amount of 6 drops will be hard. Personally, I keep the number as low as possible, but it makes my deck a little less fun. Having more makes your deck a little more vulnerable to mana issues, but if it's more fun, and your meta can allow for it, then go for it. You look like you're doing find in this department already.
Urabrask the Hidden: Honestly, I have to actually find one first. But there aren't very many times that I absolutely NEED the haste to get things done. I've been through a ton of them through the development of the deck (Hammer of Purphoros, Fires of Yavimaya, Fervor, Anger, Ogre Battledriver, etc).
Ogre Battledriver is probably the best haste enabler in your deck, so I'd just ignore Urabrask as long as the Battledriver is there. In fact, I'm likely to replace Urabrask in my list with Battledriver in my next update.
Overall, I love the list. It's probably almost exactly how I'd build a token based Prossh list, only you've had some better ideas. I don't think much needs to change, outside of a few things that I just don't like due to personal opinion but aren't necessarily wrong. Thanks for sharing.:)
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IMO - 1-shot token makers are pretty underwhelming. I'd consider playing Awakening Zone over Siege-Gang and Wurmcoil. The tutors can be replaced with better black tutors (if you have access to them), and the mana ramp I prefer to use mana rocks for quicker acceleration. You could add in some more broken engines, like Survival of the Fittest, or power cards like Natural Order (why isn't EVERYONE in here playing this card, other than budget reasons?). I'd also consider a wee-bit more card draw, but otherwise the list looks fantastic. I may actually play this version of the deck with my changes
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest looks fun, and each card looks like it could do something. I haven't really considered it for my list, and I own both cards. How do you like them?
Also, I don't think you meant to put skycloud expanse in your list.;)
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Survival is amazing, but I like it more when you can abuse the fact you're ditching cards from your hand to your graveyard. Still, it's an excellent tutor, so it may be worth it if you feel like you want to spend the money on it. Though I feel your deck is fairly borderline on whether it can operate with it, but it wouldn't take much changes to get a lot of mileage out of it. You could remove the dynamo and lotus and replace them with some cheaper creatures, and throw in some more mid-rangey utility creatures to have plenty of fodder for Survival, and then you have one of the best tutors in the game. Really depends how far you want to go down that rabbit hole. I don't run it in my Prossh deck, and in your decks current state I don't think I'd run it in yours. Because I don't, Feverous might be able to answer the survival question a bit better than I can.
I think coalition relic is a fine replacement for the elder, as I agree, it's a slow and clunky card.
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On the topic of Survival, I would say that running anything less than ~20 creatures decreases its value significantly. I would also say that not running some sort of reanimator / recursion subtheme also diminishes its potential. I used to play it in my list, but then I realized that I was going out of my way to make one card good. Although it is a great card, it might not always be the best fit for your deck. Prossh, to me, suffers from a rare disease of being able to be built in too many ways. In that sense, I decided to focus on the things that work well with the general, and not necessarily just "good stuff" in the colors. I'll leave the Survival abuse to generals like Adun, Mimeoplasm, or Karador.
I have yet to lose a game where Survival stuck. It allows me to get anything I need, and most of my kills are creature based either through Craterhoof Behemoth or Purphoros, God of the Forge. It also allows me to get the Runescarred Demon to tutor up a non-creature wincon, my Duplicant to answer a threat, or just some mana ramp with a Wood Elves if I need it. If I need card draw I can get my Disciple of Bolas or Skullmulcher. It's absurdly powerful, especially late game where I draw into a mana dork and can pitch to get a game ending threat. I wouldn't recommend it if you're not playing the dork ramp, though. I play what, 6 1 drop creatures? They're not as useful late game except as fodder, hence survival being so strong in my list. I don't need reanimator shenanigans to make it an absurdly powerful card though. Ay recurring tutor usually wins the game on the spot if left unchecked, and Survival is no different from any of the others.
Hey guys, the artist formerly known as Saxman here (yay for name changes). So I went ahead and picked up a Food Chain. After actually playing with it, I understand. Most games end with "Welp, I guess I win now". It's pretty silly. Two small notes, though:
1) Lowering my overall CMC and ratcheting up the removal (think Black Sun's Zenith and Toxic Deluge) is working out slowly but surely for me. I don't get to play the stay-in-second-place game nearly as well, but I also don't have Geist of Saint Traft and Solemn Simulacrum trying to put me into the dumpster until I finish setting up nearly as often either.
2) Threat density is super important, as I found out. Apparently, Sadistic Sacrament is a card. Furthermore, it's kind of hard to win when you're missing 15 threats. Hard, but not impossible (thanks for the random Knowledge Pool, Deveri!). If you're creature or token based, Sarkhan Vol is pretty doggone good.
Bonus thought experiment: Is there room to create hand disruption outside of Sadistic Hypnotist?
Yes, with the amount of ramp the list runs you can get away with a Myojin of Night's Reach if you're so inclined. jsut remember that TaN doesn't get the counter because it doesn't cast it, it puts it into play. That's what I would recommend though, if that card hits it's usually gg. The Hypnotist is one of my favorite cards to play of all time though So much hurt in that little 5 drop >.<
I've begun loading the deck up with removal and shaving down on "cute" spells. Basically, if a card is not A. good on its own or B. directly good with the commander, it gets the boot. I was originally playing a Jund combo deck with too many moving pieces, causing tons of conflict in game plan. After ironing out the list, it performs much smoother.
@Saxman
I too found that the token doublers were a bit gratuitous. Fairly bad topdecks, and a bit too expensive to boot. The token generation can be overkill at times, and is generally not needed to win. On the flipside, individually powerful token generators like Avenger of Zendikar are still highly welcome. I also started dedicating more slots to card draw and removal. This deck does not have a strong early game, as most of the combos are expensive, so filling the early turns with cheap ramp, cheap draw, and cheap removal help you transition without the feeling of sitting in your chair twiddling your thumbs as faster commanders do broken things.
There are a few cards I'd like everyone's opinions on. I'm trying to shave the fat, and there have been some "solid" but not "great" cards in my list.
Dragon Broodmother: this is a good card, but in an aggro-combo list, she doesn't exactly fit the bill for any particular plan. I haven't drawn her in any of my games, but I haven't gone out of my way to tutor for her either. The two most tutored-for creatures in the deck are Purphoros, God of the Forge and Craterhoof Behemoth - would she be better reserved as a different kind of threat? Hand disruption perhaps?
Champion of Lambholt: I also have not drawn this card yet, so it's hard for me to gauge its power. On first cast of Prossh, she becomes an 8/8. Sizeable, but just asking for a wrath. I suppose her unblockable clause makes her more valuable, but wouldn't something that packs a bigger punch just be better in this slot? I'm thinking of a constant like Homura, Human Ascendant or a defensive card / sac outlet like Eldrazi Monument.
Haste Issue: I think haste is important in this deck, but maybe because I play in a metagame that is a bit heavier on answers. I added Jarad's Orders and Anger do the deck, but not being instant-speed makes the tutor clunky. IE: I'm going to tutor for Craterhoof and Anger - watch me as I telegraph the table kill in sloooowwwww moootttiooonnnnn. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure haste is necessary. Playing the deck more, I tend to drop the pumps AFTER I've played Prossh, both to avoid spot removal and to act as an element of surprise. Haste does nothing on its own, and I think I want to remove it (outside of Sarkhan Vol, who has been better than I thought he would be).
If all of these leave, I'm not sure what I want to fill the slots with. I want more threats, but I'm not sure where else to look. I've got enablers: Food Chain, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Tooth and Nail - all of which have very clear goals and I don't want to muddy that up with semi-useful cards. Do I just play more answers then? I'm running around 12 removal spells (which I think is pretty high). Perhaps looking at adding some sort of engine or heavy-hitters (Myojin and Sad Sac have been mentioned) that attack opponents at a different angle. Suggestions would be welcome.
Dragon Broodmother is a card I never even put in my deck. I really think her red commitment is high, and more importantly the fact she takes a cycle around the table to really do anything hurts her. I found Mitotic Slime to just work wonders with Prossh, and thus went with it over the objectively better Dragon Broodmother.
I agree with haste not being super important in this deck, so I'd probably cut Anger. Haste is still useful though, and I play Urabrask, the Hiddenif I want to tutor up a hasty win condition. Other than that, I think I only win with creatures attacking when I attack with Craterhoof Behemoth so I may even cut Urabrask.
Champion of Lambholt is a card I really really want to try, but haven't worked her into the deck yet. My deck is heavily combo focused, but the upside the champion offers is very appealing so I'm thinking I may try her out. If you do get her out please let me know how it works out for you!
If your meta won't complain like a bunch of five year olds then I say adding some disruption engines like the myojin is a good idea, but I haven't touched those cards because my meta would complain like a bunch of five year olds. Sac outlets are a good plan of attack too, phyrexian altar, ashnod's altar, maybe even altar of dementia if you generate creatures with some power. Cheaper token generators may also be a good idea for replacements. I like saproling symbiosis and even Awakening Zone and if I had it Bitterblossom all seem good.
In the end, I'd just add mitotic slime. I LOVE that card, though it may not be as good as I think it is....it's good, play it.
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MCR, hoestly you're list looks pretty good. The only other thing I don't see you running is Skullmulcher which I consider a must include in this deck. It's a card draw engine that enables an infinite draw off of food chain and becomes huge. Other than that I feel that Prossh himself is enough of a threat that having a deck filled with mostly enablers is fine. I mean, you have a huge, veiney jund dragon, right?! Nuff said ^.^
Thanks for the response guys. Skullmulcher was kind of iffy for me solely because I don't actually want to snackrifice my tokens. I guess he's okay on first cast, so I'll shove him in and try it out.
I'm probably going to add in Phyrexian Altar, Ashnod's Altar, and Sadistic Hypnotist as more sac outlets. Since I don't run token doublers, it's important that I have a way to reset Prossh when needed. Although now I'm doubling back on the enchantments since they combo with the altars. Decisions, decisions.
I'm also not sure what adding token producers really does for the deck. I really only care about amplifying my kobolds, so the only cards my token generators would turn on are things like Skullclamp and...Vicious Shadows? Realistically? I don't know. They seem really underwhelming, the whole bunch: Bitterblossom, Awakening Zone, Mycoloth, Mitotic Slime, Dragon Broodmother, Grave Titan, etc.
I'll say a few words about the token guys. Some of them are relatively useless, all things considered (Awakening Zone, Mycoloth, and especially Mitotic Slime...oh boy did I want that card to work so badly, but it never did). After much trial and error, I shaved it down to my current package plus a couple of extra guys I think I mentioned earlier. Grave Titan is just raw value. 6 mana, 10 power, and it gets out of control really quick. The same thing applies to Dragon Broodmother, although I personally have meta reasons for running it, namely protecting myself from Karrthus's lackeys, Jenara/Derevi, Avacyn, and pretty much every other flying threat not named Iona or Shivan Dragon. They give you something to do outside of assembling combo pieces or an alternate win-con or big defense against the table turning on you.
My other reason for running them is getting free value from Warp World. Getting anywhere from 5 extra to twice as many as someone else's permanents is pretty disgusting. I usually aim for a turn 7 Warp World unless table conditions dictate I need answers.
I'll say a few words about the token guys. Some of them are relatively useless, all things considered (Awakening Zone, Mycoloth, and especially Mitotic Slime...oh boy did I want that card to work so badly, but it never did). After much trial and error, I shaved it down to my current package plus a couple of extra guys I think I mentioned earlier. Grave Titan is just raw value. 6 mana, 10 power, and it gets out of control really quick. The same thing applies to Dragon Broodmother, although I personally have meta reasons for running it, namely protecting myself from Karrthus's lackeys, Jenara/Derevi, Avacyn, and pretty much every other flying threat not named Iona or Shivan Dragon. They give you something to do outside of assembling combo pieces or an alternate win-con or big defense against the table turning on you.
My other reason for running them is getting free value from Warp World. Getting anywhere from 5 extra to twice as many as someone else's permanents is pretty disgusting. I usually aim for a turn 7 Warp World unless table conditions dictate I need answers.
I can see why you would run some of the token producers. I guess I've taken more of a "control" stance, opting to play a lot more generic card draw and removal spells. It's been working out, as I fill my turns with answers and play only what I consider the most "brutal" threats. I'm still on the fence about both Grave Titan and Dragon Broodmother. Have they really been that insane for you? In the past, they've just been generic beatsticks for me. Sure they represent a decent clock, but facing down a table of 120 life, it's generally too insignificant for my tastes (and my meta, I think). If you can convince me otherwise, I would love to hear an argument, cause I like both cards theoretically
I haven't had a chance to play my deck for the past two weeks, but I'm planning to very soon. I'm still a bit iffy on Champion of Lambholt as well as some of the walkers (Sarkhan Vol and Xenagos in particular). I'm considering adding Xenagos, God of Revels as mentioned by Ferverous. He just seems like a powerful threat on paper, and turns Prossh into a 1-shot machine. His resilience is also highly welcome. Another card I've been bouncing around in my head is Eldrazi Monument. First off, I think all abilities on the card match this deck perfectly - evasion, pump, indestructibility. Secondly, while most people may see the sacrificing as a drawback, it can actually be a plus, especially when you're looking for ways to re-cast Prossh. I think adding those two cards will provide a huge boost in both threat density and resilience for the aggro plan.
Regarding haste, I finally cut almost all haste-enablers (outside of Sarkhan Vol). There are plenty of ways to end the game via Food Chain, with cards that have impact outside of just granting haste.
Lastly, I want to talk about the types of removal I put in this deck. I tend to dislike the expensive "all purpose" removal, like Beast Within and Chaos Warp. They tie up turns and keep you from playing both threat and answer. As Jund, I believe it's important to look at how your turns play out and how the mana stacks up. In that regard, I'm playing either hyper-efficient removal (ie. Nature's Claim) or X-for-1s (ie. Fire Covenant). To compete with the heavy ramp, blue, and GY-combo decks in my metagame, this combination of spells helps me keep up with those brutal strategies. Just some food for thought.
I love the token producers in my deck, but I like them en masse rather than coming out once in small numbers, like Grave Titan which is a card I've never been impressed with when playing against it. My deck is definitely built to abuse the tokens though, so that's why I like cards like awakening zone and mitotic slime. The point about the 120 life is excellent and I agree with the notion that Grave Titan just kinda fails at tackling that problem. I think you gotta look at how you use those 3 creatures Grave Titan produces, for me 3 isn't good enough, as I want 5, 10, 15+ creature tokens in play. The Broodmother comes closer to giving me this, but she's expensive and has a super awkward casting cost. For me something like Awakening Zone is the perfect card that people would ignore for 5 turns dealing with my threats, and then I plop a craterhoof behemoth that is significantly larger as a result, plus it produces mana! But even then I'm on the edge with these kind of cards, they are slow, and we like to be explosive.
Yah, Xenagos, God of Revels seems like he could be a good fit for Prossh, will have to try and get my hands on one at some point and try him out, but he's a touch expensive right now for my tastes. Eldrazi Monument has always intrigued me but I always have to draw away from it as I very rarely attack with my tokens. They are always being sacrificed to something, so I can't really justify the slot on a card that won't win me the game. I can see it being good if you definitely focus on attacking with your tokens, but my deck just wants to plop out a huge amount and win with some combo so I pass on it.
I think I'll go through my deck and work in cheaper removal like Nature's Claim and Vandalblast as you make a good point about needing cheap removal, but I still love Chaos Warp, it's 3cmc but it'll solve a lot of problems.
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I'm not 100% sold on Xenagos yet, although he is a welcome, indestructible threat that is a nice change of pace from the otherwise fragile Beastmaster / Animosity / Coat. The issue is that Prossh becomes "useless" after you snipe someone, leading me to believe that a simple Berserk / Hit/Run / Tears of Rage would just be more effective.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
BNG was a very disappointing set in my eyes, and doubly so for Prossh. I think the new Xenagos has some promise in the right Prossh build, and Feverous may have that build. Mine is much less focused on creatures so I will have to pass, as it'd ONLY be good with Prossh in my deck and only once. It's on my radar though, as I could be wrong. But yes, berserk may be just as good in that slot.
My LGS has a Gaea's Cradle and I want it so bad, but the price tag is scary. Unfortunately, it'd be put in my Polukranos deck, as I think I'd get about 1000% more mileage out of it in that deck, than my Prossh deck. Great card, wish I had 2-3 of them.:nod:
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
The card draw that I'm running in my list is pretty bonkers. I agree that it absolutely needs to be in there, but between Disciple of Bolas, Skullmulcher, Skullclamp, Fecundity, Sylvan Library, Phyrexian Arena, and Garruk, Primal Hunter, plus the tutors (Survival of the Fittest, Diabolic Intent, Tooth and Nail, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Runescarred Demon) I don't have any problem with card draw. At all. I usually actually burn my tutors on card draw engines instead of wincons. If I'm drawing 6+ cards off of 1 I'm really likely to hit a wincon, and have my hand refilled instead of burning a tutor on a wincon, have it countered/disrupted and be left with squat. The people I play against know my list pretty well too so the card draw usually goes off because they want to hold their disruption for the Food Chain.
I don't play the snipe route, that's more big's style than mine. My list is super early huge threat, preferably killing the entire table at once through Craterhoof, Beastmaster, or going infinite with Food Chain. I think if you're going that route then a more disruptive style would be good. I would almost recommend a stax list, honestly. You can run things like Contamination and Braids, Cabal Minion without the bat of an eye because of the amount of permanents this list tends to generate.
The haste enablers I haven't seemed to need yet, other than Sarkhan Vol. Most people don't wrath once Prossh hits, so I have another turn to do something degenerate. They know if they wrath I just cast him again and get even more kobolds ^.^ I tested the Battledriver, and it just didn't work. It was always there, but it forced me to swing that turn to take advantage of it, and the power it offered wasn't enough to kill anyone so it got cut. I don't like Fervor, it doesn't do anything other than haste. If you're going to run haste than I would recommend either Sarkhan Vol, Anger (can pitch to Survival) or Urabrask, like big's running. These all fill more than 1 role, hence them being viable. And Xenagos is superior to all the 1 shot effects because it sticks, and offers that bonus over and over. I mean, sure, you can one shot someone the turn Prossh comes into play with Xenagos being there, but you also get to at least 10 someone else with him the next turn, and the one after, as long as Xenagos sticks. I think it's infinitely superior to any type of 1 shot effect, without question.
You're welcome to post your list if you want any recommendations! We'd both be happy to go over it with you.
Heh, I know what you mean. I'm working on finishing out my Ghave, Guru of Spores Stax list (It's really, really mean >.< I love it XD) and I'd love to have one for that too. I got mine for $90 and it was in pretty good shape, so I"m happy.Can't wait to test it out
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Let me talk about my little journey with Prossh, since I've been messing with lists for the past two months and I still haven't come to a conclusion. Maybe you guys can help me out.
My issue with Stax Prossh is that stax is hard to play in general. The strongest card with him is undoubtedly Possessed Portal. Unfortunately, this deck is a little wonky because the general costs so much mana and needs a lot of things to go correctly in order to profit from the circumstances. Because he actually exceeds the cost of the lock pieces, it's always awkward to set up the scenarios, and of course you're more vulnerable to sweepers than ever. It's rough to play MLD / land hate because Prossh needs the mana. That said, the deck still works okay. Being able to basically counteract Contamination and Possessed Portal are pretty huge.
I also worked on a Blitz Food Chain list which was actually pretty strong until people started to catch on to it. It ran a ton of mana dorks, anti-countermagic (yes, even REB), followed by all of the creature-based FC combo enablers. Because Food Chain can only be used to cast creatures, that's when I learned the value of Ogre Battledriver. In ben's primer, he mentions that he's sometimes 1 or 2 mana short of winning - having all creature-based win conditions, backed by mana dorks to sacrifice to Food Chain for acceleration, makes the deck extremely fast and volatile. Unfortunately it's a glass-cannon archetype that only works a few times before people learn how to stop you. It's purely an inferior version of Hermit Druid.
Lastly, aggro Prossh is interesting. It's almost like a weird ramp-hyper-voltron deck that has access to several broken plays and mini-combos. It's kind of somewhere in between Maelstrom Wanderer and Damia. It's a rush to play, which I like, but can also be fragile (especially the combo portion). That's why I want to fill the deck with resilience, redundancy, and threat density. I have a handful of slots that I want to dedicate to TRUE threats or broken cards that lock the game down that Prossh can safely ignore. Examples of these might be The Abyss and Braids, Cabal Minion. The irony is that in aggro Prossh, you want to keep all of your tokens - and therin lies my dilemma. I'm not entirely sure you can have both. Prossh is the greatest threat on his own, but unfortunately there are only a select few cards that really jive with him (Beasmaster Ascension and friends). Not crazy about the 1-shot effects, although I would run Berserk since it has its uses outside of killing a player. I'm not sure what other avenue to look down: do I dedicate those extra slots to more combos? Do I try to find another avenue of attack? Or should I just put in more resilience and removal? I kind of want to make a soft-lock list that includes backbreaking cards like Torpor Orb, Stranglehold, The Abyss, and a few other hyper-annoying cards to keep my opponents down while I bash them over and over again. Otherwise, I'm not sure that this deck has an advantage over its blue counterparts.
Questions
Thanks guys!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It sounds like you're trying to mix a bunch of strategies into one deck, which I haven't found to be that effective in my experience. Trying to play a smash deck then throwing in something like Torpor Orb just neuters half the deck because a lot of the wincons for that stile of deck are CIPT abilities (Craterhoof, Purphorous, Tooth and Nail etc). Trying to play a control list then putting token synergy cards in also doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If I were in your position I would focus on building 1 deck with 1 strategy, and only putting cards in that benefit that strategy. The list I came up with is a hyper-ramp smash list with a couple of peices of spot removal if something truly horrible hits the board. It's basically an aggro list with a combo thrown in for resiliency, so Aggro/Combo. Big's list is a Control/Combo list focused on blowing out other people's resources until he can win with Food Chain or Craterhoff or whatever.
If you did do a stax list then I would play Stax/Combo, and cut every wincon other than Food chain+purphoros/Goblin Bombardment, Craterhoof, and maybe Exsanguinate and fill the deck with stax effects.
It really does sound like you need to focus on one of the above strategies instead of all 3. Putting all 3 types of cards in the deck makes the potency of any 1 strategy a lot weaker, hence it's not nearly as effective.
My playgroup and I have been playing for almost 6 years together now and all of their decks are hyper-competitive. With my list I"m now winning more than 50% of the games I play against them. It's definitely effective, I have no hesitations about my list. I would try one of ours out if you get a chance, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Again, if you feel like posting your list I'm sure we can go over it and offer some suggestions ^.^
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Yea you are absolutely right. I've been trying to fit in as many good strategies as I can, causing me to really limit the power of each potential set of plays. Sage advice
Anyways, here's the Stax version of the list I've basically been working on for the past month or so. It's in a solid spot, but could use some spitshine before I can say that I'm truly happy with it. Your suggestion of only playing Food Chain and Craterhoof was EXACTLY how I had my list set up, so I think we're mentally on the same page haha.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Busted Green Cards
1 Food Chain
1 Birthing Pod
1 Natural Order
//Food Chain Combo
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
//N-O Targets
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Verdant Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Stax
1 Tangle Wire
1 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Contamination
1 Pox
1 Death Cloud
1 Mind Slash
1 Smokestack
1 Stranglehold
1 The Abyss
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Grave Pact
1 Possessed Portal
//Removal
1 Shattering Spree
1 Vandalblast
1 Hull Breach
1 Fire Covenant
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Damnation
//Recursive Value
1 Noxious Revival
1 Goblin Welder
1 Awakening Zone
1 Eternal Witness
1 Crop Rotation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Grim Tutor
//Draw
1 Skullclamp
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
1 Read the Bones
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Eye
1 Memory Jar
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
//Ramp
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Talisman of Impulse
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Gruul Signet
1 Golgari Signet
1 Coalition Relic
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Black Market
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Great Furnace
1 Tree of Tales
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Graven Cairns
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
4 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Mountain
The stax cards I chose because they are the ones that I can break parity with. Cards like Winter Orb are pretty rough even for us, so I tried to avoid overly-symmetrical effects. I play lots of smoothing card draw and lots of ramp - I think it's one of the keys to this archetype's success. The best card in the deck without a doubt is Possessed Portal, and it has won me more games than anything else (Contamination takes a close second). I've included a few other big token producers to break parity with said cards. I also might be a bit overkill on basics.
Note that I play Natural Order and Pod in a list with very few creatures - I generally use it on Prossh since he has no other function other than to make tokens and combo with finishers. It also gives me additional sac outlets for continuing to play Prossh for more tokens.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
1) Have any of you had issues with getting set back pretty hard by Vandalblast/Austere Command/Bane of Progress? I've been afraid of ending up on the wrong end of them quite a few times, so I've focused hard on land ramp instead of mana rocks to do the dirty things that Prossh does.
2) Would you guys be interested in seeing a token-focused list and offering feedback? It's performed far beyond my expectations, but I feel like more sets of eyes on it would help me focus it a little bit better instead of "oops, I hit Tooth and Nail/Birthing Pod" every game.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
2) Of course! I think tokens is a great way to take Prossh.
@MCR: I've never considered Prossh as an all out stax deck, I do love Grave Pact in my list though. People just see Grave Pact come down, make the simple connection with my general and immediately panic, but that's the closest I've come to stax. I can't make any suggestions, but it's an interesting list to look through.:thumbsup:
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
1 Parallel Lives
1 Primal Vigor
1 Doubling Season
1 Birthing Pod
1 Warp World
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Sol Ring
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Cultivate
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Wood Elves
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Jarad's Orders
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Goblin Matron
1 Rune-scarred Demon
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Harmonize
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Bitterblossom
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Grave Titan
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Coat of Arms
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Anger
1 Acidic Slime
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Vandalblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terminate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Putrefy
1 Krosan Grip
1 Decree of Pain
7 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple of the False God
1 Command Tower
1 Savage Lands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Kher Keep
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Strip Mine
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Llanowar Wastes
The plan is simple: ramp hard in the first 3-4 turns, tutor for a card draw engine, and just slam value permanents until I can find or tutor for Pod, Warp World, or T&N, usually around turns 7-9. The main thing I've run into is not necessarily needing the token double enchants...they're beginning to feel like win-more cards and they set me back a turn if I want to set up a nice Prossh cast. However, landing them in a long game or off a Warp World or big mana turn with Xenagos...I don't know. I'm attached to them because BIG DUMB THINGS, but I probably shouldn't be in the name of brutal efficiency.
Other things that come in and out at will:
Sepulchral Primordial and Molten Primordial: my meta is literally awash with blue. The thing is most times, there aren't going to be big value creatures in the yard or on the board, except for the times I don't have them in my deck (Avacyn showed up two nights ago. I was sad beyond words). I go back and forth.
Rampaging Baloths: For the amount of land-based ramp I have, I'm kinda surprised I'm not playing them. I originally told myself I was waiting until I picked up fetches, but it honestly shouldn't matter because I can spike tons of value from a ton of sources in my deck. The other problem...
Dragonlair Spider: ...is that there's an embarrassment of riches in the token-generating 6-drop slot. Prossh obviously, Wurmcoil leaving value behind after a wrath, Grave Titan dumping tokens everywhere, Dragon Broodmother sitting there looking pretty and quietly building an air defense force before Craterhoof shows up, and the list goes on. I even ended up cutting Broodmate Dragon just 'cause there's too much good stuff. How much is too much?
Urabrask the Hidden: Honestly, I have to actually find one first. But there aren't very many times that I absolutely NEED the haste to get things done. I've been through a ton of them through the development of the deck (Hammer of Purphoros, Fires of Yavimaya, Fervor, Anger, Ogre Battledriver, etc).
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
I would cut Primal Vigor, if you're feeling this way then 3 doubling enchantments is probably too many, and Primal Vigor does affect everyone, so minus well cut the symmetrical one in favor of keeping the two that ONLY help you.
I'm kinda meh on both of these cards, I'd just leave them out permanently. I don't think stealing cards out of the yard is something this deck wants to do, same with stealing other creatures. It does plenty on its own.
Even with fetches this guy doesn't quite do enough for me. I think he reads better than he actually plays.
You're very right, there are a lot of good six drops. I think Dragonlair Spider is not as good as anything you mentioned. I'd just keep the best X amount of 6 drops, and ignore the rest. Finding that perfect amount of 6 drops will be hard. Personally, I keep the number as low as possible, but it makes my deck a little less fun. Having more makes your deck a little more vulnerable to mana issues, but if it's more fun, and your meta can allow for it, then go for it. You look like you're doing find in this department already.
Ogre Battledriver is probably the best haste enabler in your deck, so I'd just ignore Urabrask as long as the Battledriver is there. In fact, I'm likely to replace Urabrask in my list with Battledriver in my next update.
Overall, I love the list. It's probably almost exactly how I'd build a token based Prossh list, only you've had some better ideas. I don't think much needs to change, outside of a few things that I just don't like due to personal opinion but aren't necessarily wrong. Thanks for sharing.:)
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
The only cards that I would change out (personal preference) are:
Darksteel Ingot
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Wood Elves
Solemn Simulacrum
Rune-Scarred Demon
Goblin Matron
Siege-Gang Commander
Wurmcoil Engine
IMO - 1-shot token makers are pretty underwhelming. I'd consider playing Awakening Zone over Siege-Gang and Wurmcoil. The tutors can be replaced with better black tutors (if you have access to them), and the mana ramp I prefer to use mana rocks for quicker acceleration. You could add in some more broken engines, like Survival of the Fittest, or power cards like Natural Order (why isn't EVERYONE in here playing this card, other than budget reasons?). I'd also consider a wee-bit more card draw, but otherwise the list looks fantastic. I may actually play this version of the deck with my changes
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Also, I hate Opal Palace, I'd replace that thing fast. Yes, it fixes, but at a large cost, I'd rather run Forbidden Orchard, or Reflecting Pool in its place.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest looks fun, and each card looks like it could do something. I haven't really considered it for my list, and I own both cards. How do you like them?
Also, I don't think you meant to put skycloud expanse in your list.;)
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
I think coalition relic is a fine replacement for the elder, as I agree, it's a slow and clunky card.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
1) Lowering my overall CMC and ratcheting up the removal (think Black Sun's Zenith and Toxic Deluge) is working out slowly but surely for me. I don't get to play the stay-in-second-place game nearly as well, but I also don't have Geist of Saint Traft and Solemn Simulacrum trying to put me into the dumpster until I finish setting up nearly as often either.
2) Threat density is super important, as I found out. Apparently, Sadistic Sacrament is a card. Furthermore, it's kind of hard to win when you're missing 15 threats. Hard, but not impossible (thanks for the random Knowledge Pool, Deveri!). If you're creature or token based, Sarkhan Vol is pretty doggone good.
Bonus thought experiment: Is there room to create hand disruption outside of Sadistic Hypnotist?
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
@Saxman
I too found that the token doublers were a bit gratuitous. Fairly bad topdecks, and a bit too expensive to boot. The token generation can be overkill at times, and is generally not needed to win. On the flipside, individually powerful token generators like Avenger of Zendikar are still highly welcome. I also started dedicating more slots to card draw and removal. This deck does not have a strong early game, as most of the combos are expensive, so filling the early turns with cheap ramp, cheap draw, and cheap removal help you transition without the feeling of sitting in your chair twiddling your thumbs as faster commanders do broken things.
There are a few cards I'd like everyone's opinions on. I'm trying to shave the fat, and there have been some "solid" but not "great" cards in my list.
Dragon Broodmother: this is a good card, but in an aggro-combo list, she doesn't exactly fit the bill for any particular plan. I haven't drawn her in any of my games, but I haven't gone out of my way to tutor for her either. The two most tutored-for creatures in the deck are Purphoros, God of the Forge and Craterhoof Behemoth - would she be better reserved as a different kind of threat? Hand disruption perhaps?
Champion of Lambholt: I also have not drawn this card yet, so it's hard for me to gauge its power. On first cast of Prossh, she becomes an 8/8. Sizeable, but just asking for a wrath. I suppose her unblockable clause makes her more valuable, but wouldn't something that packs a bigger punch just be better in this slot? I'm thinking of a constant like Homura, Human Ascendant or a defensive card / sac outlet like Eldrazi Monument.
Haste Issue: I think haste is important in this deck, but maybe because I play in a metagame that is a bit heavier on answers. I added Jarad's Orders and Anger do the deck, but not being instant-speed makes the tutor clunky. IE: I'm going to tutor for Craterhoof and Anger - watch me as I telegraph the table kill in sloooowwwww moootttiooonnnnn. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure haste is necessary. Playing the deck more, I tend to drop the pumps AFTER I've played Prossh, both to avoid spot removal and to act as an element of surprise. Haste does nothing on its own, and I think I want to remove it (outside of Sarkhan Vol, who has been better than I thought he would be).
If all of these leave, I'm not sure what I want to fill the slots with. I want more threats, but I'm not sure where else to look. I've got enablers: Food Chain, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Tooth and Nail - all of which have very clear goals and I don't want to muddy that up with semi-useful cards. Do I just play more answers then? I'm running around 12 removal spells (which I think is pretty high). Perhaps looking at adding some sort of engine or heavy-hitters (Myojin and Sad Sac have been mentioned) that attack opponents at a different angle. Suggestions would be welcome.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
//Power Cards
1 Food Chain
1 Birthing Pod
1 Natural Order
1 Tooth and Nail
//Combo Pieces
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Vicious Shadows
//Aggro
1 Shared Animosity
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Coat of Arms
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
//Token Generators
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Chancellor of the Forge
//Tutors
1 Crop Rotation
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Grim Tutor
1 Jarad's Orders
//Card Draw
1 Skullclamp
1 Night's Whisper
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
1 Read the Bones
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
1 Harmonize
1 Eternal Witness
1 Anger
//Disruption
1 Nature's Claim
1 Innocent Blood
1 Vandalblast
1 Hull Breach
1 Beast Within
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ashes to Ashes
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Decree of Pain
//Stax
1 The Abyss
1 Stranglehold
//Ramp
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Explore
1 Restore
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Coalition Relic
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Black Market
//Lands
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Graven Cairns
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I agree with haste not being super important in this deck, so I'd probably cut Anger. Haste is still useful though, and I play Urabrask, the Hiddenif I want to tutor up a hasty win condition. Other than that, I think I only win with creatures attacking when I attack with Craterhoof Behemoth so I may even cut Urabrask.
Champion of Lambholt is a card I really really want to try, but haven't worked her into the deck yet. My deck is heavily combo focused, but the upside the champion offers is very appealing so I'm thinking I may try her out. If you do get her out please let me know how it works out for you!
If your meta won't complain like a bunch of five year olds then I say adding some disruption engines like the myojin is a good idea, but I haven't touched those cards because my meta would complain like a bunch of five year olds. Sac outlets are a good plan of attack too, phyrexian altar, ashnod's altar, maybe even altar of dementia if you generate creatures with some power. Cheaper token generators may also be a good idea for replacements. I like saproling symbiosis and even Awakening Zone and if I had it Bitterblossom all seem good.
In the end, I'd just add mitotic slime. I LOVE that card, though it may not be as good as I think it is....it's good, play it.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
I'm probably going to add in Phyrexian Altar, Ashnod's Altar, and Sadistic Hypnotist as more sac outlets. Since I don't run token doublers, it's important that I have a way to reset Prossh when needed. Although now I'm doubling back on the enchantments since they combo with the altars. Decisions, decisions.
I'm also not sure what adding token producers really does for the deck. I really only care about amplifying my kobolds, so the only cards my token generators would turn on are things like Skullclamp and...Vicious Shadows? Realistically? I don't know. They seem really underwhelming, the whole bunch: Bitterblossom, Awakening Zone, Mycoloth, Mitotic Slime, Dragon Broodmother, Grave Titan, etc.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
My other reason for running them is getting free value from Warp World. Getting anywhere from 5 extra to twice as many as someone else's permanents is pretty disgusting. I usually aim for a turn 7 Warp World unless table conditions dictate I need answers.
GWURafiq of the TempoGWU
I can see why you would run some of the token producers. I guess I've taken more of a "control" stance, opting to play a lot more generic card draw and removal spells. It's been working out, as I fill my turns with answers and play only what I consider the most "brutal" threats. I'm still on the fence about both Grave Titan and Dragon Broodmother. Have they really been that insane for you? In the past, they've just been generic beatsticks for me. Sure they represent a decent clock, but facing down a table of 120 life, it's generally too insignificant for my tastes (and my meta, I think). If you can convince me otherwise, I would love to hear an argument, cause I like both cards theoretically
I haven't had a chance to play my deck for the past two weeks, but I'm planning to very soon. I'm still a bit iffy on Champion of Lambholt as well as some of the walkers (Sarkhan Vol and Xenagos in particular). I'm considering adding Xenagos, God of Revels as mentioned by Ferverous. He just seems like a powerful threat on paper, and turns Prossh into a 1-shot machine. His resilience is also highly welcome. Another card I've been bouncing around in my head is Eldrazi Monument. First off, I think all abilities on the card match this deck perfectly - evasion, pump, indestructibility. Secondly, while most people may see the sacrificing as a drawback, it can actually be a plus, especially when you're looking for ways to re-cast Prossh. I think adding those two cards will provide a huge boost in both threat density and resilience for the aggro plan.
Regarding haste, I finally cut almost all haste-enablers (outside of Sarkhan Vol). There are plenty of ways to end the game via Food Chain, with cards that have impact outside of just granting haste.
Lastly, I want to talk about the types of removal I put in this deck. I tend to dislike the expensive "all purpose" removal, like Beast Within and Chaos Warp. They tie up turns and keep you from playing both threat and answer. As Jund, I believe it's important to look at how your turns play out and how the mana stacks up. In that regard, I'm playing either hyper-efficient removal (ie. Nature's Claim) or X-for-1s (ie. Fire Covenant). To compete with the heavy ramp, blue, and GY-combo decks in my metagame, this combination of spells helps me keep up with those brutal strategies. Just some food for thought.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Yah, Xenagos, God of Revels seems like he could be a good fit for Prossh, will have to try and get my hands on one at some point and try him out, but he's a touch expensive right now for my tastes. Eldrazi Monument has always intrigued me but I always have to draw away from it as I very rarely attack with my tokens. They are always being sacrificed to something, so I can't really justify the slot on a card that won't win me the game. I can see it being good if you definitely focus on attacking with your tokens, but my deck just wants to plop out a huge amount and win with some combo so I pass on it.
I think I'll go through my deck and work in cheaper removal like Nature's Claim and Vandalblast as you make a good point about needing cheap removal, but I still love Chaos Warp, it's 3cmc but it'll solve a lot of problems.
"I've always been a fan of reality by popular vote" - Stephen Colbert (in response to Don McLeroy)
GPolukranos, Kill ALL the Things!G