You don't need Phyrexian Devourer and Necrotic Ooze in your list. You carry far too many 6 or greater cmc creatures. On a 4 man table it's doubtful you could take out the whole table through Ooze combo, even with a little luck.
Perhaps you misunderstood the combo. Necrotic Ooze only gains the activated ability, not the static ability, allowing you to stack as many counters on him as you want. It's also a combo that you can't respond to after the reanimation spell resolves, barring Trickbind or Sudden Death.
Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Perhaps you misunderstood the combo. Necrotic Ooze only gains the activated ability, not the static ability, allowing you to stack as many counters on him as you want. It's also a combo that you can't respond to after the reanimation spell resolves, barring Trickbind or Sudden Death.
Oops double post.
Ack, you are right for some reason I thought Ooze copied static abilities too.
It's an interesting card, but I think I would still run Impulse over it since it puts 100% of the control in your hands, and none in your opponent's. It might have more merit in a deck that had a bunch of things to discard, but this deck only wants to discard a handful of stuff. Good find either way!
The Torment Dream cycle cards are all solid in this archetype, but all of them have downsides or counterparts that are just better. I'm trying to mentally picture Nostalgic Dreams in all phases of the deck, and I think the biggest factor to me not running it is that Regrowth-type effects just aren't that valuable in this deck. I mean, I've even considered cutting Eternal Witness, but I kept it in here because I need to keep the creature count high. I might try and imagine if Witness was Nostalgic in some games and see if it would make any difference. But to me, I think both are inferior to Impulse, which not only helps me be proactive in the early game about finding combo pieces, but can be used to dig for redundancy at instant speed.
Major update. After playing the deck a few more times, it still performed well, but my strategy started to be split between going for broken Sylvan Primordial plays and going for combo. I've decided that yes, the Mike/Trike combo ONLY works with Victimize, and therefore should be cut in favor of amplifying the effect of Sylvan Primordial. Oftentimes, casting Sylvan Primordial followed by Progenitor Mimic or Stolen Identity led to a concession in itself, so this was the obvious path to take. Here is the change log:
Mikaeus the Unhallowed -> Stolen Identity
Replacing one win condition with another, Stolen Identity is definitely a powerful post-Primordial play. Also works very well with Tidespout Tyrant, the other all-star of the deck. Most of my games devolved into finding post Primordial actions, and this falls perfectly in line and is fetchable via Mystic Tutor and Personal Tutor.
Victimize -> Soul Exchange
Not sure if this is a good change yet, but Victimize loses a lot of power in a deck only running a handful of creatures worth reanimating. I wanted to maintain a decent reanimation count - perhaps Apprentice Necromancer or Body Double might be the better call here.
Preordain -> Jarad's Orders
Preordain is the most lacking of the three 1cmc dig cantrips. It has been replaced with a strong post-Primordial card that also sets up Mimeoplasm. It's a bit high on the curve, but I've finally been convinced to give it its due slot. Possible replacement would be Insidious Dreams for at least being an instant.
Trickster Mage -> Frantic Search
I've decided to cut the one looter that didn't provide some sort of card advantage. This may be a tempo loss, but still enables turn 2-3 reanimation without just straight losing cards.
Crop Rotation -> Show and Tell
The most questionable of my additions, I haven't tested this yet but I expect it to be quite good. You guys please talk me out of it! I see great potential in breaking this card, especially if your target is always Sylvan Primordial. Furthermore - in the trinity of requiring looter/target/reanimation, Show and Tell bypasses both looter and reanimation. Clearly with a potentially disastrous drawback though.
Bazaar of Baghdad -> Llanowar Wastes
Bazaar just hasn't been doing its job. It's a tempo loss and I can't recoup the card disadvantage without Loam, which is no longer in the deck because it was too slow. Even then, I would never tutor for Loam over a combo piece. A difficult cut.
Elvish Spirit Guide -> Green Sun's Zenith
GSZ gives me a post-Sylvan play (Fauna Shaman) and still provides T1 ramp if I have a T3 play. Dryad Arbor has been a surprising all-star in this deck for providing mana off of Survival, a creature to sacrifice for Diabolic Intent and Victimize (now Soul Exchange), as well as an additional forest for Primordial.
Turbulent Dreams -> Beast Within
I don't think either card is necessary in my deck, but when I realized Turbulent was NOT an instant, it went down several notches in my book. In goes Beast, but I think I would still prefer countermagic in this slot.
These changes give the deck more power plays instead of just being cogs that don't really operate well on their own. Looking forward to testing the new list! Still considering adding Arcane Denial and Counterspell as additional ways to protect my combo pieces.
Personally I think cutting Bazaar is a mistake.
It's been a huge powerhouse in every game I've played. Same for Victimize.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
I could be mistaken but I think you'll end up cutting Show and Tell pretty quickly. Dropping turn 2 Sylvan Primordial doesn't help that much if your opponents don't need mana anymore because they got to play their best spell for free.
Soul Exchange looks pretty questionable but nothing else comes to mind that's as cheap. Do you not get threshold quickly enough for Stitch Together or do you have a disposable creature more often?
Funny I also thought Turbulent Dreams was an instant when I started playing it. Makes a big difference don't it?
Personally I think cutting Bazaar is a mistake.
It's been a huge powerhouse in every game I've played. Same for Victimize.
Bazaar may be a powerhouse in your deck, but is it a powerhouse in my deck, featuring all of 7-8 cards that I actually want to enter the graveyard? Is it worth missing a land drop? Is there any way to recoup the card disadvantage?
And a few questions for Victimize - I don't run Mike anymore, invalidating its primary use. I, again, only run 7-8 creatures worth reanimating. I usually only see two over the course of a game, maybe three if it goes long, and almost never at the same time. I replace creature density with tutor density so I can have the targets I want, not "filler" targets. Do you still think it's worth playing now?
I could be mistaken but I think you'll end up cutting Show and Tell pretty quickly. Dropping turn 2 Sylvan Primordial doesn't help that much if your opponents don't need mana anymore because they got to play their best spell for free.
Soul Exchange looks pretty questionable but nothing else comes to mind that's as cheap. Do you not get threshold quickly enough for Stitch Together or do you have a disposable creature more often?
Funny I also thought Turbulent Dreams was an instant when I started playing it. Makes a big difference don't it?
@Show and Tell
This is hugely up for debate. I was doing some guesswork and thinking to myself what could POSSIBLY be better or worse than a Sylvan Primordial? The answer, as KoolMaqe has stated, is an Eldrazi. How many lists still run Eldrazi? How many of those lists keep hands with Eldrazi so that by the time I cast Show and Tell on turn 2-3, they'll 1-up me? Beyond this argument, any relevant permanent that is NOT a Darksteel Forge will be blown up by my Primordial trigger. The difference is I just paid 3 mana to put 3 dual lands into play, setting me up to win next turn. Now you may argue that the parity from Sylvan Primordial is no longer extremely favorable, and that is fair. Again, this is a new test/flex spot. A VERY interesting one.
@Soul Exchange
Definitely questionable, but since this deck moved away from mass looting, Threshold is harder to obtain than you'd think. Soul Exchange may potentially be exchanged for something more useful - it's "shaky", kind of like Diabolic Intent, but I've always managed to make it work somehow. I'm expecting the same from Exchange.
As a minor note, both of these cards sort of fulfill the same role (cheating a creature into play). If you can think of better replacements for these cards (and better than Stitch Together) while still staying at 3CMC or less, please, I'm all ears.
There is one more creature that I want to potentially add into the deck, and that is Sphinx Ambassador. Paired with my newly added Stolen Identity (and previously Progenitor Mimic), cloning her early on could lead to a very quick disaster, especially if I'm yoinking others' Sylvan Primordials.
Also, it's not that Brainstorm or Ponder are bad cards, it's just that they're "filler" spells that are waiting to replaced by relevant spells. I'm beginning to see the need for additional countermagic. Beast Within is an unrealistic card in this deck. It's a reactive card in a proactive deck. If I need to react to a permanent that is going to be a problem, that's what the three primary reanimation targets in my deck do. If there's something inhibiting my ability to combo off, Cylconic Rift is my one-out, and I am absolutely sure that this deck only needs one. I've played enough games to not care about having these type of answers to permanents. Countermagic, on the other hand, performs a role that Beast Within does not, and that is to protect what I am attempting to do. There are a lot choices, and I'd love some opinions:
Arcane Denial - the most practical and ideal for this deck. Since we have a minor issue with colors, this passes the test with flying colors.
Delay - the problem with this guy is that if removal is used, it's still going to happen, and I don't think it's as good as the other spells in this list.
Counterspell - standard. Mana CAN be an issue sometimes if I'm trying to protect myself while going off, but it's not that huge of a concern.
Forbid - the "tech". Can be used as a discard outlet for a reverse blowout. On the "very" expensive side.
Voidslime - has the ability to counter Crypt/Macabre effects. Having it in the right place at the right time? I'd say most likely not.
Plasm Capture - I can't always abuse the mana like other ramp decks. Being at 4CMC is too much of a hindrance to use when I'm trying to protect combos.
Again, thanks for your input. Would love to hear responses!
I like Forbid and Arcane Denial the most out of those. Forbid is really amazing and well worth the extra over Counterspell. It can still be used as a cancel or a discard outlet in a pinch but it really shines if you are already ahead on board. At that point any cards in your hand don't matter except Forbid so you just keep buying it back if anyone tries to disrupt your board state or create a dominating board state of their own. Obviously this might seem like a win more but I've played a lot of games where my board state would have been disrupted if I didn't have Counterspell with buyback.
Arcane Denial is just really efficient at what it does and the extra cards may or may not be used against you since this is multiplayer. Best case scenario is a 2 mana 1U hard counter that slowtrips and draws an opponent 2 cards they're going to use against another opponent. That obviously won't happen very often but there are times when it will and that's a pretty amazing best case scenario. If you're really desperate you can even counter one of your own spells which is pretty cool.
I have very little experience with Plasm Capture. Counterspell is ok as filler but not that great. Delay is amazing in Edric but mostly because if the spell you've countered ever resolves you've already lost so it's pretty much a hard counter for 1U! I think Voidslime is pretty good especially since it can shut down a lot of graveyard hate but Forbid is by far the better of the two in my opinion.
The more I play the deck, the more I miss certain interactions, and the more I begin to see the faults in the deck. In its incarnation before these changes, the deck lacked a certain sense of "gelling". The earliest lists had more focus, and as I played the deck more, I started to try and break the most powerful thing. But at what cost? I started to shoot for consistent turn 2-3 Primordial plays, but that left the rest of the deck with much to be desired. Sometimes, a turn 2 Primordial isn't even the most optimal play if there is absolutely no followup. Instead, I have now tuned the deck to have more options, better followup plays, a more consistent form of ramp, at the cost of losing some of my turn 2 plays. I think the trade off is fair and boosts the deck's options by a fair amount.
Why go back to mana dorks? For a few reasons. Number one: Natural Order. The correct answer to the Show and Tell replacement is indeed the tutor that can find Sylvan himself. This falls directly in line with the deck's goals and aids it in more than one way. Number two: we're upping the creature count again! That means more consistent Soul Exchange, Diabolic Intent, and cards to pitch to Survival. Number three: more ramp! Now that the ramp has been added back in, I'm more inclined to play cards like Jarad's Orders and Insidious Dreams. Adding three mana dorks boosts the consistency.
Next up: Sheoldred, Whispering One - is just not what she is in other reanimator decks. Rarely do I care about removal, and especially not removal as slow as this. Ontop of that, I rarely have all of my creatures in the yard for her to reanimate, causing her to bring back dorks and hurting my Mimeo plays later on. I've never really cared for having her early in the game - she causes a lot of fuss and doesn't really amp up the main gameplans in any way. Hard cut, but the more I think about it, the more it isn't.
Insidious Dreams is something I can finally run. While I don't think it's particularly amazing, it is a nice setup card like Jarad's Orders that I can now play with confidence. Read the Runes replaces Drowned Rusulka because they are almost the same card, but Read is slightly better now that dorks are here. The issue I have with Rusalka is that she reads: discard, THEN draw. This hurts, especially with top-of-deck tutors. While she still puts herself in the bin, Read the Runes can do the same thing with the dorks, but still has the ability to scale as the game goes longer.
It's an interesting turn of events, but I see this list shaping up more and more as I play it. Game plan A is now completely focused on Sylvan Primordial / Tidespout Tyrant cloning action, since they are the most powerful reanimation targets in the game when copied. Game plan A2 is to go for Ooze combo, which can still blow people out of the water from a single tutor.
With survival and natural order version adding lots of creatures how does rescue from the underworld look?.
It maximizes the EtB goodness
Rescue from the Underworld
For refrence
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Rescue from the Underworld, sacrifice a creature.
Choose target creature card in your graveyard. Return that card and the sacrificed card to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of your next upkeep. Exile Rescue from the Underworld.
With survival and natural order version adding lots of creatures how does rescue from the underworld look?.
It maximizes the EtB goodness
Rescue from the Underworld
For refrence
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Rescue from the Underworld, sacrifice a creature.
Choose target creature card in your graveyard. Return that card and the sacrificed card to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of your next upkeep. Exile Rescue from the Underworld.
Thanks for chiming in. Seems kinda cute, not sure if it's better than Victimize. I think a generic clone card would be just as effective solely because of the CMC. Sure this one can't be responded to by a removal spell, but I don't know if that alone is good enough.
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I have a huge update for the deck. I've been playing and tweaking it for two weeks now, and have come to several conclusions about how to best abuse the most powerful cards in the deck. I'll make a longer post about it later tonight, but expect some serious cuts and additions.
So after playing this deck several times and tuning it a bit more, I realized a few truisms.
A lot of reanimator targets in this deck don't make a big impact. In fact, I never even bother reanimating them at any point in the game. They become Mimeoplasm food.
The use of heavy looting is wasteful. The looters themselves are poor cards, especially in a deck that only wants to yard a handful of cards.
Instead of focusing on looting and reanimating, why not focus on the core of what reanimator is: cheating creatures into play. Natural Order is one of my most-tutored targets.
In my zealous effort to cheat Sylvan Primordial into play, I kind of forgot about the rest of the deck. I decided, against my will, to up the curve of the spells in the deck to have a much more powerful and resilient mid-late game.
I'm going to do this a bit differently, so let's start with what's coming out.
Almost all of these cards have been put in the basket as "looks better on paper". No doubt, these are all playable cards, but in my particular build, they are lacking. Here's what's coming in and why:
So what's going on here? First off, Stolen Identity was added back in for its absolutely back-breaking effect when used on Sylvan Primordial. Unfortunately, even though Tidespout Tyrant was a good choice to clone, the fact that I couldn't abuse any loops (lack of artifact mana), made him not worth really playing in the deck. The Windfall-esque cards were added in not only as ways to cheaply refuel after ramping/tutoring into Primordial, but also help fuel Mimeo to be used as a reanimation spell after you tutor for the Ooze combo. Lotus Cobra and Deathrite Shaman were added as additional mana dorks to sacrifice to Natural Order. Lastly, moxnix on here suggested the use of Thoughtseize. I believe Cabal Therapy to be stronger, solely because it has more synergy with the deck. Yes, it is much worse when used as a defensive discard spell, but when used as a discard outlet + sacrifice outlet, it does wonders for this deck. I haven't drawn it yet, but I am expecting to get great mileage out of it.
Ramp is good when you're a combo deck, and Lion's Eye Diamond is perfect for discarding the combo pieces you've drawn while providing early mana for Mimeo. LED is also great with any of the Windfall effects or tutors. Has been an all-star.
Quality of life inclusions that are more effective than the plethora of tutors I was running. I used to get really clunky tutoring hands that I absolutely hated, since half of them would telegraph what I was attempting to do.
So far liking the changes a lot. Looking forward to more ideas. I guess the one thing I would love for the deck are more powerful reanimation targets that can really tilt the game in your favor, ala Sylvan Primordial and Jin-Gitaxias. Unfortunately, the only other one I had on my mind was Griselbanned
EDIT:
Also on the chopping block (opinions welcome here) -
Sup man I love the recent changes looks much more focused and consistant. Play reccuring insight and Or time spiral in the leviathan dance slots. Also notion Thier is very good in
A blue meta running 5 wheels
Sup man I love the recent changes looks much more focused and consistant. Play reccuring insight and Or time spiral in the leviathan dance slots. Also notion Thier is very good in
A blue meta running 5 wheels
Thanks man.
I have two gripes with Time Spiral and Recurring Insight:
Time Spiral removes my yard. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I'm not 100% GY dependant, but I lose any cards that may or may not have been part of setting up for reanimation. Granted, drawing fresh and resetting your lands is something the deck might want to lean towards as it moves away from mass reanimation and focuses purely on "cheating" things into play. What do you think?
Drawing too many cards hurts the Necrotic Ooze combo. The deck has a 2.63 avg cmc - barely enough to kill the table, given I draw/use about 20-30 cards, and that the biggest targets in the deck will be in the yard at the time of combo. Recurring Insight is too heavy of a hitter, and drawing into combo pieces that need to be binned is always annoying.
Time Spiral is an interesting proposition though. The same logic that goes for Recurring Insight applies to Notion Thief - I don't want to draw TOO many cards What do you think of cards like Impulse or Strategic Planning? Scroll Rack? Maybe even try Tolarian Winds?
I have two gripes with Time Spiral and Recurring Insight:
Time Spiral removes my yard. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I'm not 100% GY dependant, but I lose any cards that may or may not have been part of setting up for reanimation. Granted, drawing fresh and resetting your lands is something the deck might want to lean towards as it moves away from mass reanimation and focuses purely on "cheating" things into play. What do you think?
Drawing too many cards hurts the Necrotic Ooze combo. The deck has a 2.63 avg cmc - barely enough to kill the table, given I draw/use about 20-30 cards, and that the biggest targets in the deck will be in the yard at the time of combo. Recurring Insight is too heavy of a hitter, and drawing into combo pieces that need to be binned is always annoying.
Time Spiral is an interesting proposition though. The same logic that goes for Recurring Insight applies to Notion Thief - I don't want to draw TOO many cards What do you think of cards like Impulse or Strategic Planning? Scroll Rack? Maybe even try Tolarian Winds?
I like Time spiral more anyway but ill admit in goldfishing your deck i just assumed your combo was instant win i didn't draw the rest of the deck and count. Imagine a typical draw turn 1 dork turn 2 tutor turn 3 SP off natural order. Now your turn 4 play can end the game very easy which is why prog mimic is awesome but whats more awesome? casting time spiral getting a new hand and untaping 6 then playing the mimic or a cheap clone and passing with a counter or puking 3 more mana and wind falling again or hitting entomb reanimate and lopping a jin gix next to your SP. In fact the shuffle effect is quite awesome if your worried about your combo. but with recurring i mean drawing 14 card when your up 4 lands + on everyone is fricking huge. maybe you cant combo but you can just clone lock them out and counter and beat down i dunno defiantly try spiral
I thought I had posted something yesterday but I guess not. Anyways I think moxnix is on point here, if you've drawn so many cards you combo no longer works I'd think you should be able to win fairly easily unless the game has gone very long.
I like Time spiral more anyway but ill admit in goldfishing your deck i just assumed your combo was instant win i didn't draw the rest of the deck and count. Imagine a typical draw turn 1 dork turn 2 tutor turn 3 SP off natural order. Now your turn 4 play can end the game very easy which is why prog mimic is awesome but whats more awesome? casting time spiral getting a new hand and untaping 6 then playing the mimic or a cheap clone and passing with a counter or puking 3 more mana and wind falling again or hitting entomb reanimate and lopping a jin gix next to your SP. In fact the shuffle effect is quite awesome if your worried about your combo. but with recurring i mean drawing 14 card when your up 4 lands + on everyone is fricking huge. maybe you cant combo but you can just clone lock them out and counter and beat down i dunno defiantly try spiral
Thanks for chiming in again. I was about to hop on board the Recurring Insight train, but you might be right about Time Spiral. In that same vein, what do you think about Time Twister? Probably not better than spiral.
Either way, I took some suggestions that you made to DTrain (and also the same suggestions Donald made) and am going to push the deck a bit more in terms of early speed. IMO the one primary advantage this deck has over other goodstuff BUG decks is the ability to do broken things a turn or two quicker than average. It's more streaky, but the tradeoff is more explosive early plays at the cost of prolonged consistency.
I'm considering making room for that Time Spiral. Perhaps it's better here than Impulse, but since I'm going down to 33 lands, I feel like running more digging cantrips is important. I was originally going to play Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy mainly because it's a non-discriminate answer and can hit elephant tokens made from cloning Terastadon (it actually became a problem before lol). However, in general, this deck is so proactive that running these types of generic answers is really, really underwhelming. I usually want to impose my will onto my opponents, and if it doesn't work, try again. The control style is oppressive, not reactive, which leads me to believe that the final slot should indeed be Time Sprial. Having too many top-end cards might be bad though, so perhaps Strategic Planning should also be considered in that slot.
As for the other cuts, Muddle the Mixture is probably the most questionable, but I find myself hardly ever palming countermagic. I almost always use it as an over-costed, poor tutor. Same goes with Insidious Dreams. At 4CMC, it's a very slow setup card and can't be taken advantage of until I'm almost already winning. At that point, it might as well be a more efficient tutor or a digging cantrip that'll help me setup better. Exotic Orchard was cut for Mox Diamond - that's probably wrong, but I'm going down to 33 lands anyways and off-setting it by lowering the curve and implementing more draw/filtering.
Let me know what you agree and disagree with here. Thanks bud
Thanks for chiming in again. I was about to hop on board the Recurring Insight train, but you might be right about Time Spiral. In that same vein, what do you think about Time Twister? Probably not better than spiral.
Either way, I took some suggestions that you made to DTrain (and also the same suggestions Donald made) and am going to push the deck a bit more in terms of early speed. IMO the one primary advantage this deck has over other goodstuff BUG decks is the ability to do broken things a turn or two quicker than average. It's more streaky, but the tradeoff is more explosive early plays at the cost of prolonged consistency.
I'm considering making room for that Time Spiral. Perhaps it's better here than Impulse, but since I'm going down to 33 lands, I feel like running more digging cantrips is important. I was originally going to play Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy mainly because it's a non-discriminate answer and can hit elephant tokens made from cloning Terastadon (it actually became a problem before lol). However, in general, this deck is so proactive that running these types of generic answers is really, really underwhelming. I usually want to impose my will onto my opponents, and if it doesn't work, try again. The control style is oppressive, not reactive, which leads me to believe that the final slot should indeed be Time Sprial. Having too many top-end cards might be bad though, so perhaps Strategic Planning should also be considered in that slot.
As for the other cuts, Muddle the Mixture is probably the most questionable, but I find myself hardly ever palming countermagic. I almost always use it as an over-costed, poor tutor. Same goes with Insidious Dreams. At 4CMC, it's a very slow setup card and can't be taken advantage of until I'm almost already winning. At that point, it might as well be a more efficient tutor or a digging cantrip that'll help me setup better. Exotic Orchard was cut for Mox Diamond - that's probably wrong, but I'm going down to 33 lands anyways and off-setting it by lowering the curve and implementing more draw/filtering.
Let me know what you agree and disagree with here. Thanks bud
Got to test a few hands tonight. Happy with both the quick mana and big draw effects. Haven't really run into a situation where Time Spiral was bad, and I think it's a good call. The honest truth is that this deck is no longer truly focused on discard -> reanimation, but about abusing Sylvan Primordial, and all of these 6CMC spells really push that strategy.
The one thing I felt lacking was increased # of protection. At first I didn't like countermagic, but the way this deck has shaped up, I think it's almost necessary to ensure things run more smoothly. I think adding 2 to 3 more low-cost counterspells increases my chances of drawing some protection for either my Sylvan Primordial or Ooze combo. I'm not too keen on Misdirection because I actually don't run a density of blue cards (I almost considered cutting FoW, but kept it for the versatility), but of the cheap counters these are the ones I'm considering:
Of these, Swan Song is my favorite. It covers the most range for its cost and the drawback is completely negligible. Dispel meets Envelop with the added bonus of being able to counter enchantments. The rest all have their pros and cons, but let me detail the cards I'm considering cutting:
These two creatures are almost always better on paper than they are in practice. This deck doesn't like "roundabout" cards or "insurance" cards. The more I play the deck, the more I realize that I get ahead pretty fast and it's more important to protect myself as people gang up on me. Thankfully Sylvan Primordial makes it a bit harder to retaliate. Impulse isn't bad persay, but being a 2-drop makes it much less desireable than the 1-drop cantrips. I would rather have countermagic in this slot, as protecting my Sylvan Primordial cloning action is fairly important.
Opinions welcome!
EDIT:
I totally missed Donald's comment. Actually, the deck does about 120 damage after using about 30 cards. This is both testing from actually going off and goldfishing (even though the average CMC is around 2.5, the deck yards most of its high-costed cards). Honestly, that's plenty, and especially since I've increased the CMC of non-reanimator target spells, it'll be much easier to maintain that ratio. If the game has gone that long, people will have sustained damage, and it's no problem. This deck is starting to look more and more like a streamlined, efficient, cheating-control deck, much like Legacy Reanimator, which is exactly what I intended to do with it. Thanks for the help you guys!
Got to play the deck a few more times in a ramp-based metagame. The games went well for the most part, ended the night 4-2. The games I lost were mainly to poor draws (too much mana) or they just had the answers. If I'm able to have a 50%+ win ratio against a table of UGx ramp decks, I am happy. I attribute this to the fact that I'm about a turn or two faster than the average Rafiq/Jenara type list, and that's all the advantage I need. They started to wise-up towards the end and gang up on me, which was expected. I managed to fight through a few tough games, but perhaps the thing I love most about this deck is that there are two completely different angles of attack that make it difficult to combat. Flash and Natural Order relinquish this deck from the traditional shackles that pure reanimator lists suffer from. This list can also be quite explosive. Throughout the night, I had all of these occur:
Turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias
Turn 3 Sylvan Primordial into turn 4 Stolen Identity
Turn 2 Necrotic Ooze win; turn 1 Imperial Seal for Buried Alive, turn 2 Mana Vault > Dark Ritual > Buried Alive > Dance of the Dead
These are the most ideal and powerful avenues this deck is capable of. I played a few grindier games, and I'm glad that I included a bunch of "soft" hard counters. The time they buy is tremendous. While I may not be as quick as a pure combo deck, I am potentially the fastest UGx ramp deck and walk the fence between dedicated combo and broken plays.
Anyways, enough tooting my horn. It's time to talk about the changes. Some of these have already been made from previous posts, but I'll go ahead and combine all of them here and update my OP.
About the cuts, a lot of people might give me flack for cutting Terastadon. The truth is, I am the aggressor, and Terastadon wastes a lot of resources for a medium level of disruption. I will never go for it on turns 3-4, as Sylvan Primordial is optimal. IF the game ever goes later than that, I'd play the answer game and sculpt a hand to shoot for Necrotic Ooze combo. I just didn't care to ever use or see it; couple that fact with the significant decrease in discard/reanimate spells, and we have ourselves an over-costed dud.
My theory with this deck has changed slightly. I used to want to play cards like Phantasmal Image and Gilded Drake. Now? I don't care to interact! They're a waste of space! What am I going to copy or steal that will win me the game, barring another Sylvan Primordial. If someone else Primordialed before me, they're probably going to win. Good thing I'm usually the first to get one out, barring someone's turn 2-3 Bribery. That's partially why I've opted to include so many more instant-speed answers. The problem I have right now is protecting my expensive enablers and my assembled Primordial combos - adding mana and countermagic has helped solve much of it.
As for the followup plays to Sylvan Primordial, I decided to cut Recurring Insight and Time Spiral in favor of Necrologia. The former two blue juggernaut draw spells were fine, but they're high on the curve. I can't realistically cast them without Sylvan Primordial. They also don't solve my need to discard combo pieces - something that Necrologia does perfectly. Of the games I won, 3 of them were off the back of Necrotic Ooze, and I always had enough cards to finish the job, so Time Spiral is not so necessary. Time Spiral also hurt me one time cause I couldn't find another creature to yard for Mimeoplasm, and I only had one tutor for Buried Alive. Too many potential headaches - better to just play the safer draw spell IMO. And the reason I cut both is because my hands were starting to turn clunky. Mana dorks + 33 lands does not equate the ability to cast 6 drops on time and consistently if the Primordial plan fails (like it did twice tonight).
Anyways, I'm rambling on. Love the deck, think the list is pretty close to exactly how I want it. Of course, I'd love to have Griselbanned to round it out, but I can't be too greedy The next step for me is to play this deck in a metagame full of other optimized top-tier generals, like Sharuum, Arcum, Oona, and Zur to really gauge its power.
EDIT:
Also, I'm probably going to see a bit more GY hate pop up in the future. I have a few slots dedicated to answers. While they're a bit generic right now, I have no problem changing Cyclonic Rift, Beast Within, and Putrefy to Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim and Abrupt Decay to increase the overall speed of the deck. I chose the former three removal spells because they are the most flexible, instant-speed answers available to me in these colors. You could argue against Putrefy, but it hits just about everything I would care to hit.
Got to play the deck a few more times in a ramp-based metagame. The games went well for the most part, ended the night 4-2. The games I lost were mainly to poor draws (too much mana) or they just had the answers. If I'm able to have a 50%+ win ratio against a table of UGx ramp decks, I am happy. I attribute this to the fact that I'm about a turn or two faster than the average Rafiq/Jenara type list, and that's all the advantage I need. They started to wise-up towards the end and gang up on me, which was expected. I managed to fight through a few tough games, but perhaps the thing I love most about this deck is that there are two completely different angles of attack that make it difficult to combat. Flash and Natural Order relinquish this deck from the traditional shackles that pure reanimator lists suffer from. This list can also be quite explosive. Throughout the night, I had all of these occur:
Turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias
Turn 3 Sylvan Primordial into turn 4 Stolen Identity
Turn 2 Necrotic Ooze win; turn 1 Imperial Seal for Buried Alive, turn 2 Mana Vault > Dark Ritual > Buried Alive > Dance of the Dead
These are the most ideal and powerful avenues this deck is capable of. I played a few grindier games, and I'm glad that I included a bunch of "soft" hard counters. The time they buy is tremendous. While I may not be as quick as a pure combo deck, I am potentially the fastest UGx ramp deck and walk the fence between dedicated combo and broken plays.
Anyways, enough tooting my horn. It's time to talk about the changes. Some of these have already been made from previous posts, but I'll go ahead and combine all of them here and update my OP.
About the cuts, a lot of people might give me flack for cutting Terastadon. The truth is, I am the aggressor, and Terastadon wastes a lot of resources for a medium level of disruption. I will never go for it on turns 3-4, as Sylvan Primordial is optimal. IF the game ever goes later than that, I'd play the answer game and sculpt a hand to shoot for Necrotic Ooze combo. I just didn't care to ever use or see it; couple that fact with the significant decrease in discard/reanimate spells, and we have ourselves an over-costed dud.
My theory with this deck has changed slightly. I used to want to play cards like Phantasmal Image and Gilded Drake. Now? I don't care to interact! They're a waste of space! What am I going to copy or steal that will win me the game, barring another Sylvan Primordial. If someone else Primordialed before me, they're probably going to win. Good thing I'm usually the first to get one out, barring someone's turn 2-3 Bribery. That's partially why I've opted to include so many more instant-speed answers. The problem I have right now is protecting my expensive enablers and my assembled Primordial combos - adding mana and countermagic has helped solve much of it.
As for the followup plays to Sylvan Primordial, I decided to cut Recurring Insight and Time Spiral in favor of Necrologia. The former two blue juggernaut draw spells were fine, but they're high on the curve. I can't realistically cast them without Sylvan Primordial. They also don't solve my need to discard combo pieces - something that Necrologia does perfectly. Of the games I won, 3 of them were off the back of Necrotic Ooze, and I always had enough cards to finish the job, so Time Spiral is not so necessary. Time Spiral also hurt me one time cause I couldn't find another creature to yard for Mimeoplasm, and I only had one tutor for Buried Alive. Too many potential headaches - better to just play the safer draw spell IMO. And the reason I cut both is because my hands were starting to turn clunky. Mana dorks + 33 lands does not equate the ability to cast 6 drops on time and consistently if the Primordial plan fails (like it did twice tonight).
Anyways, I'm rambling on. Love the deck, think the list is pretty close to exactly how I want it. Of course, I'd love to have Griselbanned to round it out, but I can't be too greedy The next step for me is to play this deck in a metagame full of other optimized top-tier generals, like Sharuum, Arcum, Oona, and Zur to really gauge its power.
EDIT:
Also, I'm probably going to see a bit more GY hate pop up in the future. I have a few slots dedicated to answers. While they're a bit generic right now, I have no problem changing Cyclonic Rift, Beast Within, and Putrefy to Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim and Abrupt Decay to increase the overall speed of the deck. I chose the former three removal spells because they are the most flexible, instant-speed answers available to me in these colors. You could argue against Putrefy, but it hits just about everything I would care to hit.
Love how the decks coming looks like something I would play now ;). I like all your changes but preordain for one of the cmc 2 counters at a compeitive table I think that's arcane denial despite the cantrip giving 2 cards to a degenerate ddck makes it the weaker add in my eyes but really unjust don't like preordain cut your list is fast enough that it is just raw consistancy / thinning.
Love how the decks coming looks like something I would play now ;). I like all your changes but preordain for one of the cmc 2 counters at a compeitive table I think that's arcane denial despite the cantrip giving 2 cards to a degenerate ddck makes it the weaker add in my eyes but really unjust don't like preordain cut your list is fast enough that it is just raw consistancy / thinning.
Thanks!
I was on the fence about cutting the cantrip, as it is the weakest of the three. I agree that some of my countermagic could use a bit of rework. I actually don't really like FoW, since I often don't have an extra blue card to pitch. Thinking about Dispel, although I've tuned my list to have cheap hard counters that can hit more things. Perhaps Negate.
Perhaps you misunderstood the combo. Necrotic Ooze only gains the activated ability, not the static ability, allowing you to stack as many counters on him as you want. It's also a combo that you can't respond to after the reanimation spell resolves, barring Trickbind or Sudden Death.
Oops double post.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
Nin's theft
Mill all decks
bruna blink
Ack, you are right for some reason I thought Ooze copied static abilities too.
I like your list. Looks fast and deadly.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
It's an interesting card, but I think I would still run Impulse over it since it puts 100% of the control in your hands, and none in your opponent's. It might have more merit in a deck that had a bunch of things to discard, but this deck only wants to discard a handful of stuff. Good find either way!
The Torment Dream cycle cards are all solid in this archetype, but all of them have downsides or counterparts that are just better. I'm trying to mentally picture Nostalgic Dreams in all phases of the deck, and I think the biggest factor to me not running it is that Regrowth-type effects just aren't that valuable in this deck. I mean, I've even considered cutting Eternal Witness, but I kept it in here because I need to keep the creature count high. I might try and imagine if Witness was Nostalgic in some games and see if it would make any difference. But to me, I think both are inferior to Impulse, which not only helps me be proactive in the early game about finding combo pieces, but can be used to dig for redundancy at instant speed.
Thanks bud, I really appreciate that coming from you!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Mikaeus the Unhallowed -> Stolen Identity
Replacing one win condition with another, Stolen Identity is definitely a powerful post-Primordial play. Also works very well with Tidespout Tyrant, the other all-star of the deck. Most of my games devolved into finding post Primordial actions, and this falls perfectly in line and is fetchable via Mystic Tutor and Personal Tutor.
Victimize -> Soul Exchange
Not sure if this is a good change yet, but Victimize loses a lot of power in a deck only running a handful of creatures worth reanimating. I wanted to maintain a decent reanimation count - perhaps Apprentice Necromancer or Body Double might be the better call here.
Preordain -> Jarad's Orders
Preordain is the most lacking of the three 1cmc dig cantrips. It has been replaced with a strong post-Primordial card that also sets up Mimeoplasm. It's a bit high on the curve, but I've finally been convinced to give it its due slot. Possible replacement would be Insidious Dreams for at least being an instant.
Trickster Mage -> Frantic Search
I've decided to cut the one looter that didn't provide some sort of card advantage. This may be a tempo loss, but still enables turn 2-3 reanimation without just straight losing cards.
Crop Rotation -> Show and Tell
The most questionable of my additions, I haven't tested this yet but I expect it to be quite good. You guys please talk me out of it! I see great potential in breaking this card, especially if your target is always Sylvan Primordial. Furthermore - in the trinity of requiring looter/target/reanimation, Show and Tell bypasses both looter and reanimation. Clearly with a potentially disastrous drawback though.
Bazaar of Baghdad -> Llanowar Wastes
Bazaar just hasn't been doing its job. It's a tempo loss and I can't recoup the card disadvantage without Loam, which is no longer in the deck because it was too slow. Even then, I would never tutor for Loam over a combo piece. A difficult cut.
Elvish Spirit Guide -> Green Sun's Zenith
GSZ gives me a post-Sylvan play (Fauna Shaman) and still provides T1 ramp if I have a T3 play. Dryad Arbor has been a surprising all-star in this deck for providing mana off of Survival, a creature to sacrifice for Diabolic Intent and Victimize (now Soul Exchange), as well as an additional forest for Primordial.
Turbulent Dreams -> Beast Within
I don't think either card is necessary in my deck, but when I realized Turbulent was NOT an instant, it went down several notches in my book. In goes Beast, but I think I would still prefer countermagic in this slot.
These changes give the deck more power plays instead of just being cogs that don't really operate well on their own. Looking forward to testing the new list! Still considering adding Arcane Denial and Counterspell as additional ways to protect my combo pieces.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It's been a huge powerhouse in every game I've played. Same for Victimize.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
Soul Exchange looks pretty questionable but nothing else comes to mind that's as cheap. Do you not get threshold quickly enough for Stitch Together or do you have a disposable creature more often?
Funny I also thought Turbulent Dreams was an instant when I started playing it. Makes a big difference don't it?
I play Show and Tell!
Both players play a F/D Card.
Flip, Primordial!
Flip, Ulamog!
......Lame.....
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
Bazaar may be a powerhouse in your deck, but is it a powerhouse in my deck, featuring all of 7-8 cards that I actually want to enter the graveyard? Is it worth missing a land drop? Is there any way to recoup the card disadvantage?
And a few questions for Victimize - I don't run Mike anymore, invalidating its primary use. I, again, only run 7-8 creatures worth reanimating. I usually only see two over the course of a game, maybe three if it goes long, and almost never at the same time. I replace creature density with tutor density so I can have the targets I want, not "filler" targets. Do you still think it's worth playing now?
@Show and Tell
This is hugely up for debate. I was doing some guesswork and thinking to myself what could POSSIBLY be better or worse than a Sylvan Primordial? The answer, as KoolMaqe has stated, is an Eldrazi. How many lists still run Eldrazi? How many of those lists keep hands with Eldrazi so that by the time I cast Show and Tell on turn 2-3, they'll 1-up me? Beyond this argument, any relevant permanent that is NOT a Darksteel Forge will be blown up by my Primordial trigger. The difference is I just paid 3 mana to put 3 dual lands into play, setting me up to win next turn. Now you may argue that the parity from Sylvan Primordial is no longer extremely favorable, and that is fair. Again, this is a new test/flex spot. A VERY interesting one.
@Soul Exchange
Definitely questionable, but since this deck moved away from mass looting, Threshold is harder to obtain than you'd think. Soul Exchange may potentially be exchanged for something more useful - it's "shaky", kind of like Diabolic Intent, but I've always managed to make it work somehow. I'm expecting the same from Exchange.
As a minor note, both of these cards sort of fulfill the same role (cheating a creature into play). If you can think of better replacements for these cards (and better than Stitch Together) while still staying at 3CMC or less, please, I'm all ears.
Next up for cuts:
There is one more creature that I want to potentially add into the deck, and that is Sphinx Ambassador. Paired with my newly added Stolen Identity (and previously Progenitor Mimic), cloning her early on could lead to a very quick disaster, especially if I'm yoinking others' Sylvan Primordials.
Also, it's not that Brainstorm or Ponder are bad cards, it's just that they're "filler" spells that are waiting to replaced by relevant spells. I'm beginning to see the need for additional countermagic. Beast Within is an unrealistic card in this deck. It's a reactive card in a proactive deck. If I need to react to a permanent that is going to be a problem, that's what the three primary reanimation targets in my deck do. If there's something inhibiting my ability to combo off, Cylconic Rift is my one-out, and I am absolutely sure that this deck only needs one. I've played enough games to not care about having these type of answers to permanents. Countermagic, on the other hand, performs a role that Beast Within does not, and that is to protect what I am attempting to do. There are a lot choices, and I'd love some opinions:
Arcane Denial - the most practical and ideal for this deck. Since we have a minor issue with colors, this passes the test with flying colors.
Delay - the problem with this guy is that if removal is used, it's still going to happen, and I don't think it's as good as the other spells in this list.
Counterspell - standard. Mana CAN be an issue sometimes if I'm trying to protect myself while going off, but it's not that huge of a concern.
Forbid - the "tech". Can be used as a discard outlet for a reverse blowout. On the "very" expensive side.
Voidslime - has the ability to counter Crypt/Macabre effects. Having it in the right place at the right time? I'd say most likely not.
Plasm Capture - I can't always abuse the mana like other ramp decks. Being at 4CMC is too much of a hindrance to use when I'm trying to protect combos.
Again, thanks for your input. Would love to hear responses!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Arcane Denial is just really efficient at what it does and the extra cards may or may not be used against you since this is multiplayer. Best case scenario is a 2 mana 1U hard counter that slowtrips and draws an opponent 2 cards they're going to use against another opponent. That obviously won't happen very often but there are times when it will and that's a pretty amazing best case scenario. If you're really desperate you can even counter one of your own spells which is pretty cool.
I have very little experience with Plasm Capture. Counterspell is ok as filler but not that great. Delay is amazing in Edric but mostly because if the spell you've countered ever resolves you've already lost so it's pretty much a hard counter for 1U! I think Voidslime is pretty good especially since it can shut down a lot of graveyard hate but Forbid is by far the better of the two in my opinion.
The more I play the deck, the more I miss certain interactions, and the more I begin to see the faults in the deck. In its incarnation before these changes, the deck lacked a certain sense of "gelling". The earliest lists had more focus, and as I played the deck more, I started to try and break the most powerful thing. But at what cost? I started to shoot for consistent turn 2-3 Primordial plays, but that left the rest of the deck with much to be desired. Sometimes, a turn 2 Primordial isn't even the most optimal play if there is absolutely no followup. Instead, I have now tuned the deck to have more options, better followup plays, a more consistent form of ramp, at the cost of losing some of my turn 2 plays. I think the trade off is fair and boosts the deck's options by a fair amount.
Brainstorm -> Elves of Deep Shadow
Ponder -> Llanowar Elves
Carpet of Flowers ->Elvish Mystic
Mox Diamond ->Fyndhorn Elves
Eternal Witness -> Arbor Elf
Show and Tell -> Natural Order
Sheoldred, Whispering One -> Insidious Dreams
Drowned Rusalka -> Read the Runes
Why go back to mana dorks? For a few reasons. Number one: Natural Order. The correct answer to the Show and Tell replacement is indeed the tutor that can find Sylvan himself. This falls directly in line with the deck's goals and aids it in more than one way. Number two: we're upping the creature count again! That means more consistent Soul Exchange, Diabolic Intent, and cards to pitch to Survival. Number three: more ramp! Now that the ramp has been added back in, I'm more inclined to play cards like Jarad's Orders and Insidious Dreams. Adding three mana dorks boosts the consistency.
Next up: Sheoldred, Whispering One - is just not what she is in other reanimator decks. Rarely do I care about removal, and especially not removal as slow as this. Ontop of that, I rarely have all of my creatures in the yard for her to reanimate, causing her to bring back dorks and hurting my Mimeo plays later on. I've never really cared for having her early in the game - she causes a lot of fuss and doesn't really amp up the main gameplans in any way. Hard cut, but the more I think about it, the more it isn't.
Insidious Dreams is something I can finally run. While I don't think it's particularly amazing, it is a nice setup card like Jarad's Orders that I can now play with confidence. Read the Runes replaces Drowned Rusulka because they are almost the same card, but Read is slightly better now that dorks are here. The issue I have with Rusalka is that she reads: discard, THEN draw. This hurts, especially with top-of-deck tutors. While she still puts herself in the bin, Read the Runes can do the same thing with the dorks, but still has the ability to scale as the game goes longer.
It's an interesting turn of events, but I see this list shaping up more and more as I play it. Game plan A is now completely focused on Sylvan Primordial / Tidespout Tyrant cloning action, since they are the most powerful reanimation targets in the game when copied. Game plan A2 is to go for Ooze combo, which can still blow people out of the water from a single tutor.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It maximizes the EtB goodness
Rescue from the Underworld
For refrence
Instant
As an additional cost to cast Rescue from the Underworld, sacrifice a creature.
Choose target creature card in your graveyard. Return that card and the sacrificed card to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of your next upkeep. Exile Rescue from the Underworld.
Thanks for chiming in. Seems kinda cute, not sure if it's better than Victimize. I think a generic clone card would be just as effective solely because of the CMC. Sure this one can't be responded to by a removal spell, but I don't know if that alone is good enough.
---
I have a huge update for the deck. I've been playing and tweaking it for two weeks now, and have come to several conclusions about how to best abuse the most powerful cards in the deck. I'll make a longer post about it later tonight, but expect some serious cuts and additions.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I'm going to do this a bit differently, so let's start with what's coming out.
OUT
-Tidespout Tyrant
-Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
-Soul Exchange
-Exhume
-Personal Tutor
-Worldly Tutor
-Sylvan Tutor
-Jarad's Orders
-Read the Runes
-Hapless Researcher
-Magus of the Bazaar
-Merfolk Looter
-Thought Courier
-Looter il-Kor
-Llawan, Cephalid Empress
-Llanowar Mentor
-Diabolic Intent
Almost all of these cards have been put in the basket as "looks better on paper". No doubt, these are all playable cards, but in my particular build, they are lacking. Here's what's coming in and why:
Enhancing the Sylvan Primordial Plan
+Stolen Identity
+Whispering Madness
+Memory Jar
+Lotus Cobra
+Deathrite Shaman
+Cabal Therapy
So what's going on here? First off, Stolen Identity was added back in for its absolutely back-breaking effect when used on Sylvan Primordial. Unfortunately, even though Tidespout Tyrant was a good choice to clone, the fact that I couldn't abuse any loops (lack of artifact mana), made him not worth really playing in the deck. The Windfall-esque cards were added in not only as ways to cheaply refuel after ramping/tutoring into Primordial, but also help fuel Mimeo to be used as a reanimation spell after you tutor for the Ooze combo. Lotus Cobra and Deathrite Shaman were added as additional mana dorks to sacrifice to Natural Order. Lastly, moxnix on here suggested the use of Thoughtseize. I believe Cabal Therapy to be stronger, solely because it has more synergy with the deck. Yes, it is much worse when used as a defensive discard spell, but when used as a discard outlet + sacrifice outlet, it does wonders for this deck. I haven't drawn it yet, but I am expecting to get great mileage out of it.
Enhancing the Necrotic Ooze Combo
+Insidious Dreams
+Muddle the Mixture
+Dark Ritual
+Lion's Eye Diamond
Ramp is good when you're a combo deck, and Lion's Eye Diamond is perfect for discarding the combo pieces you've drawn while providing early mana for Mimeo. LED is also great with any of the Windfall effects or tutors. Has been an all-star.
Increasing Resilience / Consistency
+Kederekt Leviathan
+Brainstorm
+Ponder
+Dark Confidant
+Preordain
+Eternal Witness
+Nostalgic Dreams
+Putrefy
Quality of life inclusions that are more effective than the plethora of tutors I was running. I used to get really clunky tutoring hands that I absolutely hated, since half of them would telegraph what I was attempting to do.
So far liking the changes a lot. Looking forward to more ideas. I guess the one thing I would love for the deck are more powerful reanimation targets that can really tilt the game in your favor, ala Sylvan Primordial and Jin-Gitaxias. Unfortunately, the only other one I had on my mind was Griselbanned
EDIT:
Also on the chopping block (opinions welcome here) -
Fauna Shaman
Kedrekt Leviathan (and Dance of the Dead with it)
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
A blue meta running 5 wheels
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Thanks man.
I have two gripes with Time Spiral and Recurring Insight:
Time Spiral is an interesting proposition though. The same logic that goes for Recurring Insight applies to Notion Thief - I don't want to draw TOO many cards What do you think of cards like Impulse or Strategic Planning? Scroll Rack? Maybe even try Tolarian Winds?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I like Time spiral more anyway but ill admit in goldfishing your deck i just assumed your combo was instant win i didn't draw the rest of the deck and count. Imagine a typical draw turn 1 dork turn 2 tutor turn 3 SP off natural order. Now your turn 4 play can end the game very easy which is why prog mimic is awesome but whats more awesome? casting time spiral getting a new hand and untaping 6 then playing the mimic or a cheap clone and passing with a counter or puking 3 more mana and wind falling again or hitting entomb reanimate and lopping a jin gix next to your SP. In fact the shuffle effect is quite awesome if your worried about your combo. but with recurring i mean drawing 14 card when your up 4 lands + on everyone is fricking huge. maybe you cant combo but you can just clone lock them out and counter and beat down i dunno defiantly try spiral
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Thanks for chiming in again. I was about to hop on board the Recurring Insight train, but you might be right about Time Spiral. In that same vein, what do you think about Time Twister? Probably not better than spiral.
Either way, I took some suggestions that you made to DTrain (and also the same suggestions Donald made) and am going to push the deck a bit more in terms of early speed. IMO the one primary advantage this deck has over other goodstuff BUG decks is the ability to do broken things a turn or two quicker than average. It's more streaky, but the tradeoff is more explosive early plays at the cost of prolonged consistency.
Here's what that looks like:
-Kedrekt Leviathan
-Dance of the Dead
-Muddle the Mixture
-Insidious Dreams
-Exotic Orchard
-Putrefy
+Recurring Insight
+Impulse
+Lotus Petal
+Elvish Spirit Guide
+Mox Diamond
+ ?
I'm considering making room for that Time Spiral. Perhaps it's better here than Impulse, but since I'm going down to 33 lands, I feel like running more digging cantrips is important. I was originally going to play Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy mainly because it's a non-discriminate answer and can hit elephant tokens made from cloning Terastadon (it actually became a problem before lol). However, in general, this deck is so proactive that running these types of generic answers is really, really underwhelming. I usually want to impose my will onto my opponents, and if it doesn't work, try again. The control style is oppressive, not reactive, which leads me to believe that the final slot should indeed be Time Sprial. Having too many top-end cards might be bad though, so perhaps Strategic Planning should also be considered in that slot.
As for the other cuts, Muddle the Mixture is probably the most questionable, but I find myself hardly ever palming countermagic. I almost always use it as an over-costed, poor tutor. Same goes with Insidious Dreams. At 4CMC, it's a very slow setup card and can't be taken advantage of until I'm almost already winning. At that point, it might as well be a more efficient tutor or a digging cantrip that'll help me setup better. Exotic Orchard was cut for Mox Diamond - that's probably wrong, but I'm going down to 33 lands anyways and off-setting it by lowering the curve and implementing more draw/filtering.
Let me know what you agree and disagree with here. Thanks bud
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Play the spiral and yes I like these changes.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Got to test a few hands tonight. Happy with both the quick mana and big draw effects. Haven't really run into a situation where Time Spiral was bad, and I think it's a good call. The honest truth is that this deck is no longer truly focused on discard -> reanimation, but about abusing Sylvan Primordial, and all of these 6CMC spells really push that strategy.
The one thing I felt lacking was increased # of protection. At first I didn't like countermagic, but the way this deck has shaped up, I think it's almost necessary to ensure things run more smoothly. I think adding 2 to 3 more low-cost counterspells increases my chances of drawing some protection for either my Sylvan Primordial or Ooze combo. I'm not too keen on Misdirection because I actually don't run a density of blue cards (I almost considered cutting FoW, but kept it for the versatility), but of the cheap counters these are the ones I'm considering:
Dispel
Swan Song
Arcane Denial
Muddle the Mixture
Forbid
Of these, Swan Song is my favorite. It covers the most range for its cost and the drawback is completely negligible. Dispel meets Envelop with the added bonus of being able to counter enchantments. The rest all have their pros and cons, but let me detail the cards I'm considering cutting:
Eternal Witness
Gilded Drake
Impulse
These two creatures are almost always better on paper than they are in practice. This deck doesn't like "roundabout" cards or "insurance" cards. The more I play the deck, the more I realize that I get ahead pretty fast and it's more important to protect myself as people gang up on me. Thankfully Sylvan Primordial makes it a bit harder to retaliate. Impulse isn't bad persay, but being a 2-drop makes it much less desireable than the 1-drop cantrips. I would rather have countermagic in this slot, as protecting my Sylvan Primordial cloning action is fairly important.
Opinions welcome!
EDIT:
I totally missed Donald's comment. Actually, the deck does about 120 damage after using about 30 cards. This is both testing from actually going off and goldfishing (even though the average CMC is around 2.5, the deck yards most of its high-costed cards). Honestly, that's plenty, and especially since I've increased the CMC of non-reanimator target spells, it'll be much easier to maintain that ratio. If the game has gone that long, people will have sustained damage, and it's no problem. This deck is starting to look more and more like a streamlined, efficient, cheating-control deck, much like Legacy Reanimator, which is exactly what I intended to do with it. Thanks for the help you guys!
EDIT 2:
Also considering cards like See Beyond and Lat-Nam's Legacy. Great for resetting Buried Alive.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Got to play the deck a few more times in a ramp-based metagame. The games went well for the most part, ended the night 4-2. The games I lost were mainly to poor draws (too much mana) or they just had the answers. If I'm able to have a 50%+ win ratio against a table of UGx ramp decks, I am happy. I attribute this to the fact that I'm about a turn or two faster than the average Rafiq/Jenara type list, and that's all the advantage I need. They started to wise-up towards the end and gang up on me, which was expected. I managed to fight through a few tough games, but perhaps the thing I love most about this deck is that there are two completely different angles of attack that make it difficult to combat. Flash and Natural Order relinquish this deck from the traditional shackles that pure reanimator lists suffer from. This list can also be quite explosive. Throughout the night, I had all of these occur:
These are the most ideal and powerful avenues this deck is capable of. I played a few grindier games, and I'm glad that I included a bunch of "soft" hard counters. The time they buy is tremendous. While I may not be as quick as a pure combo deck, I am potentially the fastest UGx ramp deck and walk the fence between dedicated combo and broken plays.
Anyways, enough tooting my horn. It's time to talk about the changes. Some of these have already been made from previous posts, but I'll go ahead and combine all of them here and update my OP.
- Kederekt Leviathan
- Terastadon
- Phantasmal Image
- Necromancy
- Insidious Dreams
- Careful Study
- Preordain
- Gilded Drake
- Twilight Mire
+ Personal Tutor
+ Necrologia
+ Swan Song
+ Arcane Denial
+ Delay
+ Elvish Spirit Guide
+ Lotus Petal
+ Mox Diamond
About the cuts, a lot of people might give me flack for cutting Terastadon. The truth is, I am the aggressor, and Terastadon wastes a lot of resources for a medium level of disruption. I will never go for it on turns 3-4, as Sylvan Primordial is optimal. IF the game ever goes later than that, I'd play the answer game and sculpt a hand to shoot for Necrotic Ooze combo. I just didn't care to ever use or see it; couple that fact with the significant decrease in discard/reanimate spells, and we have ourselves an over-costed dud.
My theory with this deck has changed slightly. I used to want to play cards like Phantasmal Image and Gilded Drake. Now? I don't care to interact! They're a waste of space! What am I going to copy or steal that will win me the game, barring another Sylvan Primordial. If someone else Primordialed before me, they're probably going to win. Good thing I'm usually the first to get one out, barring someone's turn 2-3 Bribery. That's partially why I've opted to include so many more instant-speed answers. The problem I have right now is protecting my expensive enablers and my assembled Primordial combos - adding mana and countermagic has helped solve much of it.
As for the followup plays to Sylvan Primordial, I decided to cut Recurring Insight and Time Spiral in favor of Necrologia. The former two blue juggernaut draw spells were fine, but they're high on the curve. I can't realistically cast them without Sylvan Primordial. They also don't solve my need to discard combo pieces - something that Necrologia does perfectly. Of the games I won, 3 of them were off the back of Necrotic Ooze, and I always had enough cards to finish the job, so Time Spiral is not so necessary. Time Spiral also hurt me one time cause I couldn't find another creature to yard for Mimeoplasm, and I only had one tutor for Buried Alive. Too many potential headaches - better to just play the safer draw spell IMO. And the reason I cut both is because my hands were starting to turn clunky. Mana dorks + 33 lands does not equate the ability to cast 6 drops on time and consistently if the Primordial plan fails (like it did twice tonight).
Anyways, I'm rambling on. Love the deck, think the list is pretty close to exactly how I want it. Of course, I'd love to have Griselbanned to round it out, but I can't be too greedy The next step for me is to play this deck in a metagame full of other optimized top-tier generals, like Sharuum, Arcum, Oona, and Zur to really gauge its power.
EDIT:
Also, I'm probably going to see a bit more GY hate pop up in the future. I have a few slots dedicated to answers. While they're a bit generic right now, I have no problem changing Cyclonic Rift, Beast Within, and Putrefy to Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim and Abrupt Decay to increase the overall speed of the deck. I chose the former three removal spells because they are the most flexible, instant-speed answers available to me in these colors. You could argue against Putrefy, but it hits just about everything I would care to hit.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Love how the decks coming looks like something I would play now ;). I like all your changes but preordain for one of the cmc 2 counters at a compeitive table I think that's arcane denial despite the cantrip giving 2 cards to a degenerate ddck makes it the weaker add in my eyes but really unjust don't like preordain cut your list is fast enough that it is just raw consistancy / thinning.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Thanks!
I was on the fence about cutting the cantrip, as it is the weakest of the three. I agree that some of my countermagic could use a bit of rework. I actually don't really like FoW, since I often don't have an extra blue card to pitch. Thinking about Dispel, although I've tuned my list to have cheap hard counters that can hit more things. Perhaps Negate.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain