I consider this Primer one of the most important pieces of writing in Commander history
Totally agree with you there; Rach's knowledge and implementation of human psychology is spot-on.
once you take your first lump the crown is a great way to make other players logically avoid you (someone else has the crown and you have 1/1 Deathtouch dorks), but I'd worry by adding stuff like Marchesa's Decree, Palace Jailer, Knights of the Black Rose, etc, that you would start to draw a lot of ire because "you're trying to fort up and abuse the Monarch mechanic".
This makes sense. I've begun ordering cards I know I'll use and I'm looking to test within the next 2 weeks. I'll report back when I do.
Quick question: How do you guys deal with cards like Exsanguinate?
Don't bury the lead. This is the most interesting angle I've seen a deck take with respect to its goals.
Actively punishing people for trying to burst a win either through excess tokens, huge voltron, or some other means while being inefficient/weak to moderate levels of aggression. I like that core concept a lot.
I think the problem I have is that the card choices are incredibly narrow, so it seems like a hand is going to be a lot of do/nothing. It also feels anti climatic that the majority of punishments are just burn to the face. Sac outlets remove your ability to kill players from the damage redirection route.
Certainly cards like Rakdos Charm are flexible enough to have use when you're not facing the token swarm, but Acidic Soil just seems incredibly niche/meta dependent. I suppose it's an efficient burn spell however, and helps you take down multiple players, but this style of play just seems not very interactive. Just sit sit sit sit burn for 10 burn for 20.
I do very much like the idea of punishing excess, but I don't feel that there's too many extant cards that do so in a satisfactory manner. Tokens, voltron, ramp, card draw, activated abilities. I'll have to think on this.
It also feels anti climatic that the majority of punishments are just burn to the face.
You haven't lived until you've Blood Oathed someone for 42, fizzling another player's Garruk, Apex Predator -3 activation on a 30+ power Sturmgeist via player removal.
Half the joy of the deck is the clever interactions and surprise. If instead of damage you ran cards that destroyed creatures or lands or hands as the method of punishment, you destroy the feel-good factor. Someone is left resenting their weakened board state but has to endure while you figure out how to finish winning, and you've made yourself a target by tipping your hand.
The deck is very unassuming from across the table, though repeat opponents learn to pick off your early defensive permanents. Even still, the deck is fun to play as or against. For me, my Queen Marchesa version boasts one of my better win rates yet is still fun to lose as. Games tend to always end in memorable fashion, in either case.
My Queen Marchesa version is my favorite deck of all time. I have been running and evolving it for over a year. This thread was a significant inspiration, but I feel like I have taken it beyond what it was a few years ago, and my version is significantly more powerful, but retains the feel good and exciting swing wins of the original. Tariel was an interesting general, but the Queen was born for this role. Check out the link in my sig. It will be worth your time.
erfunk, do you have a deck list posted, I always like seeing what people do with Queen Marchesa and what people do with Mardu Aikido. I would like to see yours.
I am testing queen marchesa running your listing minus, those cards that are too costly or hard to find.
Can i ask you a few questions?
1. If you don't play burning wish, what do you replace it with?
2. many times where I have queen in play, i have alot of rattlesnake cards in hand which i don't need to cast...so what do you usually do, when your queen can hold the board?
3. What are the cards you think is the most crucial in your deck?
1. Burning Wish can easily be replaced with any of the cards in the Wishboard. Burning Wish just allows you to select on the fly, but any choice is a fine one.
2. Hold cards in hand if you don't need them on the board. Sometimes, a card, no matter what it is, is all you need. Discarding to Solitary Confinement is sometimes key to your game.
3. That is a very tough question. The deck is all about subtle synergy. Each card is much more powerful in context, and the effect on the table is much more than the text on the card would imply. For the most part, Rattlesnakes > Pillow Fort > Control > Wincons > Ramp/Fixing > Tutors, but each reinforces and is reinforced by the other categories. It is definitely more important to have a strong mix of all of them than to have a a single category that is fleshed out to it's maximal capacity. Probably seeing a list would make it easier for me to advise you.
I have built my queen on leftover cards, as i need a noob friendly deck, doubt i would spend $ on cards that cost more than $10. I am sure they are are people who is interested in a more budget friendly listing of yours that work
If you are looking for ways to make it more budget, I suggest looking at a budget mana base. That is a good start. The mana base I list makes the deck work smoother, but is absolutely not necessary to make the deck work. The tutors are also a good place to trim, especially for a deck meant for inexperienced players. Not knowing what to go get makes the tutors less valuable anyway, so trimming them may not be as bad as it may seem. It may seem like the tutors are there for reactive control, but really they are there for proactive control, and this is something that requires knowledge not just of your deck, but also your opponents. The tutors make more difference for experienced players who know how to anticipate more than react. The ramp in the deck is not overly expensive, and there are other alternatives that are cheaper for the expensive parts, and wouldn't hurt too much to sub out. The control is not overly expensive, aside from a few staples, and there are alternatives to things like Path to Exile that are workable, if not quite as optimized. The control does not have the expensive board wipes that can make a control deck super expensive. There are a few Pillow cards that are expensive, and a few Rattlesnake cards that are expensive, but these have alternatives that are cheap. The key Aikido cards are all pretty cheap, a few bucks each for the most expensive, with Price of Progress, Acidic Soil, Backlash, Delirium, Disrupt Decorum, Rakdos Charm, Deflecting Palm, and Comeuppance being pretty key to making this feel like it does when played, and this list can easily be added to with some of the other Aikido cards in the original Rachmiel list being great additions, and are often very budget friendly. Some of the bombs like Serra Ascendant, Gisella, Blade of Goldnight, and Master of Cruelties are not cheap, but these are just optimized placeholders for any appropriate big bomb, and could be substituted. Some people think that eliminating them may reduce the threat level anyway, so you may not miss them at all.
For a budget version, I would say you should start with getting a good Rattlesnake army that fits your budget, deploy it behind a pillow fort that is subtle and fits your budget. This may be a challenge, since my Pillow Fort has a lot of value caught up in key cards. Fortunately, Rachmiel has multiple alternatives in his list that are more budget friendly, and the Rattlesnakes are usually as effective for most of the game as the Pillow, so adjust yours as necessary. Add in as many of the Aikido cards as you can, especially the list of cards above. These make the deck feel like an Aikido martial arts master. Add in as optimized a spot removal control core as you can, and recognize that there are many alternatives in Mardu that would work, and are cheap. Optimize your mana base as your budget allows, and don't feel like the readily available cheaper alternatives for various taplands will ruin the deck. Being a little slow is not the end of the world, and you can often play around these without even noticing. Don't forget that there are cheap tutors in the form of Transmute spells, and those spells have actual uses besides the Transmute that fit the deck as well.
With all that said, I am not sure this is a noob friendly deck, even with a budget version. It takes a lot of understanding of what the deck can do, what is dangerous to the deck, what is actually valuable and progresses your strategy even if it is dangerous, what other decks can play that can beat you, and most importantly, how to play so that you are not the target, while still bringing your opponents into striking distance. It plays a lot of cards that are modal to gain virtual card advantage, falsely lowering the threat level, and some cardfiltering that is often an invisible increase in power. These make the deck much more powerful than people realize. Making it budget will definitely decrease the power some, and not knowing how each piece in the puzzle supports a game that is open for a win from you will potentially mean a lot of losses. This could be frustrating for an inexperienced player. It is definitely not an easy deck to win with, but even if you lose, it can be fun. When you get it, your win rate goes way up, and the victories can be the stuff of legends. When your playgroup starts to clue in, it can definitely change how people play, tightening the competitiveness of everyone in the meta. I feel like this is best used by an experienced player who wants to ensure super exciting games, test their skill, and be able to play with opponents of all skill levels and all deck power, tightening the competitiveness of all involved. It is best played against inexperienced players, not by inexperienced players.
I was able to actually play this deck (or magic) for the first time in 9ish years. I took this to a game store and got in 2 games.
First off, lots has changed in 9 years - the power level of decks is far higher than it used to be. I had no ways of dealing with a krark and sakashima deck copying and doubling all its spells. We don't have enough new stack interaction and I sorely missed a way to stop those shenanigans.
Game report:
Game 1:
Opponents: Scarab God, Krark/Sakashima, Nikya of the Old Ways
Just could not keep up with the strong and large number of creatures from the RG commander. Krark/Sakashima did nothing because of mana screw. Scarab God was mildly annoying with mill, but really the 8 creatures of powers 6 - 9 really did the job. Mostly it was the combo of Bane of Progress with Ilharg, the Raze-Boar wiping out all our defenses that made this game a blowout.
Game 2:
Opponents: Scarab God, Krark/Sakashima, Nikya of the Old Ways, Commander Greven il-Vec
This time around we had some defenses up, but it didn't matter 1 bit. The Greven player was running what I would call a Duel Commander. He was capable of taking out a player via commander damage through [c]Lake of the Dead]] and a Liliana of the get BBBB ability. He took out the Scarab God player, but the real issue was the Krark/Skashima player who was able to generate insane mana with treasures and rituals then have enough copies of krark to lightening bolt us all to death.
There was no way to interact with his stack based deck with ours. I don't know if there are defenses against that type of deck in RWB outside of stax like Rule of Law which is very much against the idea of this deck.
Anyway, I still love this deck, but I think it may not be able to compete with tuned decks in 2022.
Totally agree with you there; Rach's knowledge and implementation of human psychology is spot-on.
This makes sense. I've begun ordering cards I know I'll use and I'm looking to test within the next 2 weeks. I'll report back when I do.
Quick question: How do you guys deal with cards like Exsanguinate?
Reverberate and other Fork variants are my go-to answers for Exsanguinate, though I'm usually the guy that's casting Exsanguinate.
Actively punishing people for trying to burst a win either through excess tokens, huge voltron, or some other means while being inefficient/weak to moderate levels of aggression. I like that core concept a lot.
I think the problem I have is that the card choices are incredibly narrow, so it seems like a hand is going to be a lot of do/nothing. It also feels anti climatic that the majority of punishments are just burn to the face. Sac outlets remove your ability to kill players from the damage redirection route.
Certainly cards like Rakdos Charm are flexible enough to have use when you're not facing the token swarm, but Acidic Soil just seems incredibly niche/meta dependent. I suppose it's an efficient burn spell however, and helps you take down multiple players, but this style of play just seems not very interactive. Just sit sit sit sit burn for 10 burn for 20.
I do very much like the idea of punishing excess, but I don't feel that there's too many extant cards that do so in a satisfactory manner. Tokens, voltron, ramp, card draw, activated abilities. I'll have to think on this.
Magic Realms: Magic as a portable board game
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
You haven't lived until you've Blood Oathed someone for 42, fizzling another player's Garruk, Apex Predator -3 activation on a 30+ power Sturmgeist via player removal.
Half the joy of the deck is the clever interactions and surprise. If instead of damage you ran cards that destroyed creatures or lands or hands as the method of punishment, you destroy the feel-good factor. Someone is left resenting their weakened board state but has to endure while you figure out how to finish winning, and you've made yourself a target by tipping your hand.
The deck is very unassuming from across the table, though repeat opponents learn to pick off your early defensive permanents. Even still, the deck is fun to play as or against. For me, my Queen Marchesa version boasts one of my better win rates yet is still fun to lose as. Games tend to always end in memorable fashion, in either case.
erfunk, do you have a deck list posted, I always like seeing what people do with Queen Marchesa and what people do with Mardu Aikido. I would like to see yours.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
I am testing queen marchesa running your listing minus, those cards that are too costly or hard to find.
Can i ask you a few questions?
1. If you don't play burning wish, what do you replace it with?
2. many times where I have queen in play, i have alot of rattlesnake cards in hand which i don't need to cast...so what do you usually do, when your queen can hold the board?
3. What are the cards you think is the most crucial in your deck?
2. Hold cards in hand if you don't need them on the board. Sometimes, a card, no matter what it is, is all you need. Discarding to Solitary Confinement is sometimes key to your game.
3. That is a very tough question. The deck is all about subtle synergy. Each card is much more powerful in context, and the effect on the table is much more than the text on the card would imply. For the most part, Rattlesnakes > Pillow Fort > Control > Wincons > Ramp/Fixing > Tutors, but each reinforces and is reinforced by the other categories. It is definitely more important to have a strong mix of all of them than to have a a single category that is fleshed out to it's maximal capacity. Probably seeing a list would make it easier for me to advise you.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
Thanks for your timely reply.
I have built my queen on leftover cards, as i need a noob friendly deck, doubt i would spend $ on cards that cost more than $10. I am sure they are are people who is interested in a more budget friendly listing of yours that work
For a budget version, I would say you should start with getting a good Rattlesnake army that fits your budget, deploy it behind a pillow fort that is subtle and fits your budget. This may be a challenge, since my Pillow Fort has a lot of value caught up in key cards. Fortunately, Rachmiel has multiple alternatives in his list that are more budget friendly, and the Rattlesnakes are usually as effective for most of the game as the Pillow, so adjust yours as necessary. Add in as many of the Aikido cards as you can, especially the list of cards above. These make the deck feel like an Aikido martial arts master. Add in as optimized a spot removal control core as you can, and recognize that there are many alternatives in Mardu that would work, and are cheap. Optimize your mana base as your budget allows, and don't feel like the readily available cheaper alternatives for various taplands will ruin the deck. Being a little slow is not the end of the world, and you can often play around these without even noticing. Don't forget that there are cheap tutors in the form of Transmute spells, and those spells have actual uses besides the Transmute that fit the deck as well.
With all that said, I am not sure this is a noob friendly deck, even with a budget version. It takes a lot of understanding of what the deck can do, what is dangerous to the deck, what is actually valuable and progresses your strategy even if it is dangerous, what other decks can play that can beat you, and most importantly, how to play so that you are not the target, while still bringing your opponents into striking distance. It plays a lot of cards that are modal to gain virtual card advantage, falsely lowering the threat level, and some cardfiltering that is often an invisible increase in power. These make the deck much more powerful than people realize. Making it budget will definitely decrease the power some, and not knowing how each piece in the puzzle supports a game that is open for a win from you will potentially mean a lot of losses. This could be frustrating for an inexperienced player. It is definitely not an easy deck to win with, but even if you lose, it can be fun. When you get it, your win rate goes way up, and the victories can be the stuff of legends. When your playgroup starts to clue in, it can definitely change how people play, tightening the competitiveness of everyone in the meta. I feel like this is best used by an experienced player who wants to ensure super exciting games, test their skill, and be able to play with opponents of all skill levels and all deck power, tightening the competitiveness of all involved. It is best played against inexperienced players, not by inexperienced players.
WUBSente: The Politics and Metaphor of Stones
My Vampire Hunter Kit Innistrad Themed Cube!
I was able to actually play this deck (or magic) for the first time in 9ish years. I took this to a game store and got in 2 games.
First off, lots has changed in 9 years - the power level of decks is far higher than it used to be. I had no ways of dealing with a krark and sakashima deck copying and doubling all its spells. We don't have enough new stack interaction and I sorely missed a way to stop those shenanigans.
Game report:
Game 1:
Opponents: Scarab God, Krark/Sakashima, Nikya of the Old Ways
Just could not keep up with the strong and large number of creatures from the RG commander. Krark/Sakashima did nothing because of mana screw. Scarab God was mildly annoying with mill, but really the 8 creatures of powers 6 - 9 really did the job. Mostly it was the combo of Bane of Progress with Ilharg, the Raze-Boar wiping out all our defenses that made this game a blowout.
Game 2:
Opponents: Scarab God, Krark/Sakashima, Nikya of the Old Ways, Commander Greven il-Vec
This time around we had some defenses up, but it didn't matter 1 bit. The Greven player was running what I would call a Duel Commander. He was capable of taking out a player via commander damage through [c]Lake of the Dead]] and a Liliana of the get BBBB ability. He took out the Scarab God player, but the real issue was the Krark/Skashima player who was able to generate insane mana with treasures and rituals then have enough copies of krark to lightening bolt us all to death.
There was no way to interact with his stack based deck with ours. I don't know if there are defenses against that type of deck in RWB outside of stax like Rule of Law which is very much against the idea of this deck.
Anyway, I still love this deck, but I think it may not be able to compete with tuned decks in 2022.
Ps- a card similar to Volcanic Torrent would be amazing..
Something like:
Mana Wake 2RW
Instant
Split Second
Mana Wake deals damage to each player equal to the number of spells that player has cast this turn.