Still trying out everything that's been suggested. I've definitely decided that Sunforger should have a place in the deck, so I swapped Carnage Altar for it. I still think this deck could flow better in terms of weeding out cards that don't contribute much. Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Ragged Veins (although I have had some REALLY fun moments with this one), and Predator, Flagship are all the most likely culprits. I still haven't had as much time to play lately, so I'm still working on videos as well.
I've also finally completed (read: assembled something that looks like what I thought I had in mind originally) my new deck that I've been working on for the past month or so, so I'll be hopefully working on that some as well. I ended up going with Nin, the Pain Artist.
The deck that I mentioned with Vela the Night-Clad never came to be because I felt that the core design was too flawed after playing with it. It was going to be a deck that had things like
Now, I've seen UBR "choice" decks before (Browbeat and maybe one or two others would have been the only Red cards I would have played) that just give your opponents different choices usually. However, this would have been a bit different. The idea was that the theme of this deck would be to play cards which a rational opponent would suffer the most from. The "correct" choice for all of those cards is for someone to take the fall, but a rational player should think that someone else should take the fall instead of them. The idea originally came about from some kind of reverse-warped take on the Tragedy of the Commons.
There were two major flaws though. The first is that many players are in fact wise enough to just take the fall. This also makes them look good and me look bad. The bigger flaw though is that this deck doesn't work for the same reason that the Tariel deck does: resources in EDH are abundant and "the commons" are never-ending. Maybe if this were a 20 life format where blockbuster spells aren't expected to be played every game this would work. But 4 life from Aether Storm is only 1/10 of your life in EDH compared to 1/5 in a normal game. The same thing applies to the number of expected cards that you would draw in a normal game versus a game of EDH. Three cards from Standstill isn't that bad in the scheme of things if the game lasts a long time. Hesitation is even worse for the same reason. Sure, the table might pass for one round, but then someone will play a mana rock and kill it. It just doesn't have enough punch to it. I thought of adding stax effects to make resources less abundant, but didn't want to go that route because I hate playing against stax. If anyone still has suggestions for making it work though, I'd like to hear them.
You, sir, are a man after my own heart (with this deck). I love the idea and its construction. I have just a couple questions regarding your experience with the deck:
1) Have you ever run into a situation where you needed to interact more with the other players because the apparent/relative inactivity of the deck caused them to be overly suspicious of your actions?
2) If that's ever been a problem/if you thought it was going to become a problem what kinds of things might you change in the deck to run a better bluff?
3) In the vein of "You Make the Card", if you could design the perfect general for this deck (I'm assuming still in R/W/B), what would you make it?
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You, sir, are a man after my own heart (with this deck). I love the idea and its construction. I have just a couple questions regarding your experience with the deck:
1) Have you ever run into a situation where you needed to interact more with the other players because the apparent/relative inactivity of the deck caused them to be overly suspicious of your actions?
2) If that's ever been a problem/if you thought it was going to become a problem what kinds of things might you change in the deck to run a better bluff?
3) In the vein of "You Make the Card", if you could design the perfect general for this deck (I'm assuming still in R/W/B), what would you make it?
Thank you very much! As for the questions...
1. Absolutely.
2. I would say that not many people I've played against have been "fooled" by the deck's inactivity. Most players know that everyone is trying to win and when they see that at the end of your fifth turn, you've got out No Mercy, Thunderstaff, and Hissing Miasma, they know that something is up. As much as people want to be suspicious of you, the game usually doesn't go in a way in which they can act on their suspicions because of what the other two players are doing. What I imagine my thought process would be if I were to analyze the deck when playing against it if I had never played it before would probably be something like this:
Early game: He's played some defensive stuff, but nothing I can't get past easily later in the game. He might be suspicious, but I have to deal with the more immediate threats right now.
Mid game: Well...he's got the mana but hasn't played anything crazy yet. As soon as I finish off this other guy, I'll go after him before he can combo out or do something crazy. Although if he was going to combo out, he should have done it earlier than now.
Late game: I guess there wasn't any Insurrection or combo after all. Regardless of if he's got something or not, now is the time to attack him.
Sure, your defenses will look suspicious, but your opponent can't really ignore the Damia, Sage of Stone player who's ramping into their goodstuff and filling their hand with control pieces or the Tajic, Blade of the Legion player who's beginning to assemble a small army and buff all his dudes with vigilance and haste. As much as everyone would like to crack open your defenses (which they could easily do), since everyone else is beginning to establish themselves as threats, no one wants to leave themselves open. Additionally, if a player has poked another player for a few damage or made any aggressive moves towards them, that'll usually keep them off of you for quite a bit if not the entire game until one of those players loses. This is how I've found things generally work out in practice.
If I were to make the deck more interactive though, that would be tricky because "interacting" usually means blowing something up or attacking someone in some way which the deck doesn't want to do. Playing stuff like Spurnmage Advocate might give the appearance of "playing with everyone else" possibly because it's a creature, but in general, it's a tough line to walk because of not wanting to make an enemy of anyone. Always open to suggestions in this area though.
3.
Helikos, the Black Sun 2WBR
Legendary Creature - Elemental
Flying
Whenever you're attacked, you may pay X life. X cannot be greater than 4. If you do, search your library for a red or white instant card with converted mana cost X and cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then shuffle your library.
1/5
I would probably have to run a little more life gain to make up for it, but a built in Sunforger that takes life as a requirement and only activates when you're attacked is something that I think would fit well. I thought about allowing it to search for Black cards, but that seems like it might be too powerful. But maybe it could, I dunno.
Thanks for sharing that video. Great to see the deck in action. I wish I had a digital version of the deck (and knew how to use software like trice) to make a video as well. I've had some excellent turn-around games. The last one was winning with Acidic Soil.
I'm excited for new sets to be released just to see what else I can find for this deck.
No problem! I hope to (eventually) make more. It was a weird game because
1. I started off with no White cards or Plains
2. I really didn't play any defense until the Crawlspace
3. I was against three aggro decks
4. No Blue
Also, glad that the deck is working out well for you in paper. Acidic Soil is probably my favorite card in the deck.
I was a little disappointed that the new Commander product won't have wedge colored Generals (or so it seems) since we already have so many more Shard colored Generals to choose from, but I guess it makes sense to do it that way.
Theros will hopefully have some interesting cards as well. I'm hoping that White has some sort of revenge, retribution, or redemption theme, any of which could aid the deck if the mechanics end up right for it.
Also, I've moved some sections down to the second post as well as added a Match-Ups section which has not yet been completed. The next update will be the next six ones probably.
Added another six play styles to the match-up section as well as expanded upon the opening paragraph of it a little. Also included Grand Abolisher and False Cure in the possible cards section.
doesnt Grand Abolissher go against the sentiment of the deck in forcing your opponents to do/not done something absolutely? He's super powerful, but does make you a target immediately.
doesnt Grand Abolissher go against the sentiment of the deck in forcing your opponents to do/not done something absolutely? He's super powerful, but does make you a target immediately.
Yeah, I agree, he's not on theme for the deck at all. I edited the two sections that talk about him (the Blink section in Match-Ups and the Cards I've Considered section) to make it more clear that I'm only suggesting him as a solution to a problem (not being able to target creatures because of sacrifice/blink/bounce) that the deck has no good ways around that I can think of. You're right though, if someone played him across from me, I'd be thinking about how long until they combo off.
I would like to have a more on theme solution to present, and it I found one, it would probably be an auto-include in the deck. While still kind of off theme, I think a card like
You Have My Permission To Die WW
Enchantment
When You Have My Permission to Die comes into play, draw a card.
Whenever a creature leaves the battlefield, put it into its controller's graveyard instead of anywhere else.
Finished the Match-Ups section as well as added Academy Rector to the Optimal Deck List and removed Hoard-Smelter Dragon from it. It seems like a great card for the deck since it can fetch a good number of defenses. When I feel like not being cheap, I'll spend the $16.14 to actually get it.
Played a game last night and lost (happens from time to time). One player got a 25/25 Thromak out which was promptly stolen by the Merieke player. I missed my opportunity to Backlash + Wild Ricochet for the kill as I didn't want to get the table's attention to me (this is actually and issue as I am usually playing arch enemy these days). He dropped a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur" target="blank">Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur with Stitched Together and that was game for everyone on the table.
One thing I noticed is that the runes of protection actually draw a fair amount of agro. People hate being stopped by them - even the threat of not being able to attack at will makes them unhappy. I had my runes blown up with in 2 turns of dropping any. Interesting dynamic.
I had a loss the other day too, but the good thing about the deck is that even when you lose, you can pack a ton of damage usually.
It came down to me, Riku of Two Reflections, and Chainer, Dementia Master. Riku was the big threat at the table. There was a Basandra, Battle Seraph player, but he conceded after Riku played Rite of Replication on my Archon of Justice and copied it with Riku's ability. Earlier in the game, Chainer had dealt us all four damage with Crypt Rats so we were all at 36. I had Hissing Miasma out. Riku decides to attack me with 10 Archons instead of the also defenseless Chainer and goes down to 26. I block with my Archon and Reflect Damage one of his back at him which puts him at 22 and me at 4. Next turn, Chainer uses Hellfire and gets rid of all of the remaining Archons, but it was early enough in the game that Riku was able to get me down to three lands, destroy any defenses I had, and Chainer down to four or five lands using all the dead Archons. The abridged version is that after that, I hit Riku with Divine Deflection for 3, Rakdos Charm for 5, and Acidic Soil for 15 giving the game to the Chainer player as there was no chance to win at that point. The Chainer player got a pretty good laugh out of it though.
As for the Runes, I've never seen them targeted too much unless there was nothing else on the field to blow up with enchantment removal. Usually they're not too oppressive unless I have Chromatic Lantern out because on average, I might have access to 3-4 white mana mid game maybe, and most players seem to see that as something they can eventually get around unless they're playing mono Red and can't find that Chaos Warp.
Another thing I've been wondering about is how playing in paper with the same group of people works with the deck and if that might have anything to do with people disliking the Runes. Are you arch enemy as this deck or just in general? Once people see Acidic Soil or Backlash and know all of the deck's tricks, I would think that the way the deck is viewed and played against might change since most of the time the people I'm playing against see nothing that can even deal damage in the deck until it's used to try to kill them. Have you noticed much difference in the playgroup you play with now when using the deck when compared to when you first started using it? I'd at least imagine that the "wow" factor would be dialed down since if they know what cards you might be playing, they won't be as surprised that you have the exact right card to turn the tides against an army of 400 Soldiers attacking you.
In the case that getting a compliment from an opponent becomes too infrequent because of familiarity with the deck, I've though of adding in a deck list that solely focuses on staying alive (whether that means keeping your opponents happy or not) and punishing excess by any means necessary for players who want to be more competitive. It would probably run more controllish things like Lightmine Field for defense as an example. However, that seems like it would almost be a different, "warped" version that might not even be considered the same deck since you'll be drawing a lot more hate.
Also, I'm testing Blood Oath currently as a possible replacement for Gaze of Adamaro. I'm not sure if it will be too inconsistent or not though. It might be good against artifact decks, creature only decks, and the like, but I still need to play the card a lot more to see how it does. Scrying Glass is a card that could go well with it, but people probably don't like having their hand revealed, and I'm not 100% positive Glasses of Urza is worth a slot. Anything that combos too well with it like Head Games or Jester's Mask feels like it goes against what the deck is trying to do. Playing it in a timely manner after someone else's mass bounce effect seems good though.
After some playtesting, I think Blood Oath would be a good addition to the deck in place of Gaze of Adamaro, so I've made that change. In fact, it won me the game I just played, but not by dealing any damage. I was up against a deck with Blue in it, they had 19 lands, 16 life, and I had Acidic Soil in hand. The problem? He had 4 cards in hand and some open mana. Blood Oath solved that problem by letting me know that there were in fact no counterspells (or anything else that could stop it) and it did 6 damage to boot.
I'm also playtesting Forcefield to see if it draws too much hate or not. It seems a bit more oppressive than most of the defensive cards in the deck. I'm also playtesting Orim's Prayer which HAPPENS to be a soft combat lock with Forcefield, although I'd run one without the other easy enough as they both work alright on their own. If Orim's Prayer works, I'll try out Righteous Cause, but I think that it might draw more aggro than the Prayer.
I had a loss the other day too, but the good thing about the deck is that even when you lose, you can pack a ton of damage usually.
It came down to me, Riku of Two Reflections, and Chainer, Dementia Master. Riku was the big threat at the table. There was a Basandra, Battle Seraph player, but he conceded after Riku played Rite of Replication on my Archon of Justice and copied it with Riku's ability. Earlier in the game, Chainer had dealt us all four damage with Crypt Rats so we were all at 36. I had Hissing Miasma out. Riku decides to attack me with 10 Archons instead of the also defenseless Chainer and goes down to 26. I block with my Archon and Reflect Damage one of his back at him which puts him at 22 and me at 4. Next turn, Chainer uses Hellfire and gets rid of all of the remaining Archons, but it was early enough in the game that Riku was able to get me down to three lands, destroy any defenses I had, and Chainer down to four or five lands using all the dead Archons. The abridged version is that after that, I hit Riku with Divine Deflection for 3, Rakdos Charm for 5, and Acidic Soil for 15 giving the game to the Chainer player as there was no chance to win at that point. The Chainer player got a pretty good laugh out of it though.
Even in that loss, it's still a pretty good showing for the deck. A nice way to exit from the game. I had a similar game a few weeks ago where i gave the game to the Thromak player by killing the monoB player with Acidic Soil.
Another thing I've been wondering about is how playing in paper with the same group of people works with the deck and if that might have anything to do with people disliking the Runes. Are you arch enemy as this deck or just in general?
I am Arch Enemy in general with whatever deck I play. The general rule of thumb is to always attack me, even if I'm not in the game.
This deck is known as my "janky" deck because it runs cards that other people have never heard of (like Delirium). After a few games with this deck, people know the tricks, so I think it has to be evolved as it's played to keep them guessing. It can't be a 100 card deck, it has to be a 150 card deck that only uses 100 cards at a time to keep the element of surprise.
Once people see Acidic Soil or Backlash and know all of the deck's tricks, I would think that the way the deck is viewed and played against might change since most of the time the people I'm playing against see nothing that can even deal damage in the deck until it's used to try to kill them. Have you noticed much difference in the playgroup you play with now when using the deck when compared to when you first started using it?
Yes, absolutely. This deck is now feared for it's explosive and out of nowhere wins. I rotate through my decks regularly, but I can't keep the surprises coming after the 4th or 5th game. By then, my opponents know what to expect from this deck and hold counterspells for the turn around cards.
I'd at least imagine that the "wow" factor would be dialed down since if they know what cards you might be playing, they won't be as surprised that you have the exact right card to turn the tides against an army of 400 Soldiers attacking you.
In the case that getting a compliment from an opponent becomes too infrequent because of familiarity with the deck, I've though of adding in a deck list that solely focuses on staying alive (whether that means keeping your opponents happy or not) and punishing excess by any means necessary for players who want to be more competitive. It would probably run more controllish things like Lightmine Field for defense as an example. However, that seems like it would almost be a different, "warped" version that might not even be considered the same deck since you'll be drawing a lot more hate.
i think evolving the deck is a great idea. On the topic of Lightmine field - it's a HUGE agro draw as no one will want to attack until it's off the field.
Also, I'm testing Blood Oath currently as a possible replacement for Gaze of Adamaro. I'm not sure if it will be too inconsistent or not though. It might be good against artifact decks, creature only decks, and the like, but I still need to play the card a lot more to see how it does. Scrying Glass is a card that could go well with it, but people probably don't like having their hand revealed, and I'm not 100% positive Glasses of Urza is worth a slot. Anything that combos too well with it like Head Games or Jester's Mask feels like it goes against what the deck is trying to do. Playing it in a timely manner after someone else's mass bounce effect seems good though.
Brilliant cards and finds!! I think this sort of change is what the deck needs. I will try these out next time I play as well. i think I am going to cut guiltfeeder for Blood Oath. I'm also running Ricochet Trap which I may swap out for Shunt; I have yet to actually pay the one R instead of the 3R.
As someone who also eschews "good" cards because of being a slave to a theme, I applaud you on your deck and not including some of the cards you could.
Have you considered Tainted Strike as a way to kill a player? I'm guessing that you wouldn't add it because randomly giving an unblocked attacking 10+ power creature infect isn't liable to give the "Well played" response you're looking for, and the slightly better giving a 10+ power creature infect and then Backlashing it isn't much better. Still thought I'd mention it.
What's your screen name on MTGO? I'm sure I've played against this deck, but not sure (I'm dj_phobos). And if you want, I'll add you to my MTGO player network thread.
This deck is known as my "janky" deck because it runs cards that other people have never heard of (like Delirium). After a few games with this deck, people know the tricks, so I think it has to be evolved as it's played to keep them guessing. It can't be a 100 card deck, it has to be a 150 card deck that only uses 100 cards at a time to keep the element of surprise.
Yes, absolutely. This deck is now feared for it's explosive and out of nowhere wins. I rotate through my decks regularly, but I can't keep the surprises coming after the 4th or 5th game. By then, my opponents know what to expect from this deck and hold counterspells for the turn around cards.
i think evolving the deck is a great idea. On the topic of Lightmine field - it's a HUGE agro draw as no one will want to attack until it's off the field.
I've actually been reconsidering Delirium lately, but still need to playtest it more. Running more than 100 cards in the paper deck and having them rotate sounds like a good idea to mix things up. Making a deck that focuses more on the "punishing excess" part of the deck as opposed to the "getting them to thank you" part is on my list of things to do I suppose. It would have a more control oriented build that uses "more competitive" cards.
As someone who also eschews "good" cards because of being a slave to a theme, I applaud you on your deck and not including some of the cards you could.
Have you considered Tainted Strike as a way to kill a player? I'm guessing that you wouldn't add it because randomly giving an unblocked attacking 10+ power creature infect isn't liable to give the "Well played" response you're looking for, and the slightly better giving a 10+ power creature infect and then Backlashing it isn't much better. Still thought I'd mention it.
What's your screen name on MTGO? I'm sure I've played against this deck, but not sure (I'm dj_phobos). And if you want, I'll add you to my MTGO player network thread.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm trying to stay away from Poison and Infect like you said. The closest thing that was ever in the deck that somewhat reminds me of it even a little is Ragged Veins on an opponent's creature when they're being attacked by someone else. If I've played you on MTGO, it would have been when the deck was first starting out I think. I have seen a user named PhenPhen use this deck as well though. I just happened to watch a game he was playing and it turned out he was playing this deck. I go by Rachmiel on MTGO too, and I made a post in the network thread just a second ago.
Out of those four, I like Return to Dust the most since an Aura Shards can really throw a wrench in the game plan. Encroaching Wastes could be good. I just need to make sure I'm consistently drawing enough colored mana. Pilgrim's Eye could help with that and at least provide a chump blocker, so I'll have to test it. I'm not as sure about Terrain Generator just because I've found that I usually don't have enough land in hand to make major use of it most of the time and would rather have that colored mana since some of the defensive stuff like Hissing Miasma costs two colored. I also would like to find something to protect the defense cards. Since Privileged Position isn't in the deck's colors, that kind of stinks as it's probably the best. Boros Charm COULD work but I'm not a fan of one time effects usually except for the turnaround cards, and I don't really want to go the route of using a creature that gives them shroud since the average life of a creature seems way too short.
No Mercy is already in the deck, but that's the right idea!
Also, on the topic of No Mercy effects, are there any thoughts on replacing Dread with Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts or just using her in the deck in general? Positives are that it can make spirits (which could be negative actually if I need to Rakdos Charm), it can act as a more solid wall than Dread (vigilance helps as well), and she can always go unblocked. Negatives are that she's 1 less power, can be used against me with reanimation, and costs 1 more (although she is less color intensive which could be a positive). I still need to playtest her, but I'd like to hear any opinions.
Mainly trying to make the deck a bit faster (more cards, more mana). Also have been wanting to have access to more mana in the late game for more robust Divine Deflections or the ability to shoot off even more kill spells at once. All the good mana doublers seem to either be in Green or only affect one color like Caged Sun though.
I've also begun to notice situations pop up once every so often where I have the opportunity to use a kill spell to get rid of the strongest opponent and have a very good chance of beating the other two remaining players after that due to the board state. Usually I take it (and win), but I'm beginning to also try passing on situations like that as they never produce the desired effect. In fact, if you don't win with a kill spell, it's usually a long, drawn out slugfest with Tariel hitting someone as she reanimates their stuff while you sit cozily behind your defenses. I might lose a bit more, but it might be worth it.
Also on the to-do list is still the "competitive" version of the deck, and maybe a version that cuts out all of the defensive cards in favor of cards that still aren't threatening but interact more with other players somehow? Cards like Solemn Simulacrum are good for that because they provide value, sit on the table and look pretty without being too scary, and don't make it seem like you're walling yourself off to the world. I'll have to experiment some more with that.
Updated the second post with another video replay which can also be found here. Highest video quality and full screen recommended.
This actually ended up being a one on one game pretty quickly. I think it's still a good showing of the deck though.
Also playing around with removing Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs. I think Survival Cache is an interesting card, but not sure if it's going to be effective enough. Sunstone also looks interesting, but I don't think it's on MTGO. Trying it out now as well as everything else above.
I've also finally completed (read: assembled something that looks like what I thought I had in mind originally) my new deck that I've been working on for the past month or so, so I'll be hopefully working on that some as well. I ended up going with Nin, the Pain Artist.
The deck that I mentioned with Vela the Night-Clad never came to be because I felt that the core design was too flawed after playing with it. It was going to be a deck that had things like
Standstill
Hesitation
Lethal Vapors
Temporal Extortion
Aether Storm
Now, I've seen UBR "choice" decks before (Browbeat and maybe one or two others would have been the only Red cards I would have played) that just give your opponents different choices usually. However, this would have been a bit different. The idea was that the theme of this deck would be to play cards which a rational opponent would suffer the most from. The "correct" choice for all of those cards is for someone to take the fall, but a rational player should think that someone else should take the fall instead of them. The idea originally came about from some kind of reverse-warped take on the Tragedy of the Commons.
There were two major flaws though. The first is that many players are in fact wise enough to just take the fall. This also makes them look good and me look bad. The bigger flaw though is that this deck doesn't work for the same reason that the Tariel deck does: resources in EDH are abundant and "the commons" are never-ending. Maybe if this were a 20 life format where blockbuster spells aren't expected to be played every game this would work. But 4 life from Aether Storm is only 1/10 of your life in EDH compared to 1/5 in a normal game. The same thing applies to the number of expected cards that you would draw in a normal game versus a game of EDH. Three cards from Standstill isn't that bad in the scheme of things if the game lasts a long time. Hesitation is even worse for the same reason. Sure, the table might pass for one round, but then someone will play a mana rock and kill it. It just doesn't have enough punch to it. I thought of adding stax effects to make resources less abundant, but didn't want to go that route because I hate playing against stax. If anyone still has suggestions for making it work though, I'd like to hear them.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
1) Have you ever run into a situation where you needed to interact more with the other players because the apparent/relative inactivity of the deck caused them to be overly suspicious of your actions?
2) If that's ever been a problem/if you thought it was going to become a problem what kinds of things might you change in the deck to run a better bluff?
3) In the vein of "You Make the Card", if you could design the perfect general for this deck (I'm assuming still in R/W/B), what would you make it?
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
Thank you very much! As for the questions...
1. Absolutely.
2. I would say that not many people I've played against have been "fooled" by the deck's inactivity. Most players know that everyone is trying to win and when they see that at the end of your fifth turn, you've got out No Mercy, Thunderstaff, and Hissing Miasma, they know that something is up. As much as people want to be suspicious of you, the game usually doesn't go in a way in which they can act on their suspicions because of what the other two players are doing. What I imagine my thought process would be if I were to analyze the deck when playing against it if I had never played it before would probably be something like this:
Early game: He's played some defensive stuff, but nothing I can't get past easily later in the game. He might be suspicious, but I have to deal with the more immediate threats right now.
Mid game: Well...he's got the mana but hasn't played anything crazy yet. As soon as I finish off this other guy, I'll go after him before he can combo out or do something crazy. Although if he was going to combo out, he should have done it earlier than now.
Late game: I guess there wasn't any Insurrection or combo after all. Regardless of if he's got something or not, now is the time to attack him.
Sure, your defenses will look suspicious, but your opponent can't really ignore the Damia, Sage of Stone player who's ramping into their goodstuff and filling their hand with control pieces or the Tajic, Blade of the Legion player who's beginning to assemble a small army and buff all his dudes with vigilance and haste. As much as everyone would like to crack open your defenses (which they could easily do), since everyone else is beginning to establish themselves as threats, no one wants to leave themselves open. Additionally, if a player has poked another player for a few damage or made any aggressive moves towards them, that'll usually keep them off of you for quite a bit if not the entire game until one of those players loses. This is how I've found things generally work out in practice.
If I were to make the deck more interactive though, that would be tricky because "interacting" usually means blowing something up or attacking someone in some way which the deck doesn't want to do. Playing stuff like Spurnmage Advocate might give the appearance of "playing with everyone else" possibly because it's a creature, but in general, it's a tough line to walk because of not wanting to make an enemy of anyone. Always open to suggestions in this area though.
3.
Helikos, the Black Sun 2WBR
Legendary Creature - Elemental
Flying
Whenever you're attacked, you may pay X life. X cannot be greater than 4. If you do, search your library for a red or white instant card with converted mana cost X and cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then shuffle your library.
1/5
I would probably have to run a little more life gain to make up for it, but a built in Sunforger that takes life as a requirement and only activates when you're attacked is something that I think would fit well. I thought about allowing it to search for Black cards, but that seems like it might be too powerful. But maybe it could, I dunno.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Guiltfeeder, and Predator, Flagship are still looking at the chopping block.
Also, finally did a video of the deck which can be found in the second post.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I'm excited for new sets to be released just to see what else I can find for this deck.
1. I started off with no White cards or Plains
2. I really didn't play any defense until the Crawlspace
3. I was against three aggro decks
4. No Blue
Also, glad that the deck is working out well for you in paper. Acidic Soil is probably my favorite card in the deck.
I was a little disappointed that the new Commander product won't have wedge colored Generals (or so it seems) since we already have so many more Shard colored Generals to choose from, but I guess it makes sense to do it that way.
Theros will hopefully have some interesting cards as well. I'm hoping that White has some sort of revenge, retribution, or redemption theme, any of which could aid the deck if the mechanics end up right for it.
Also, I've moved some sections down to the second post as well as added a Match-Ups section which has not yet been completed. The next update will be the next six ones probably.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Yeah, I agree, he's not on theme for the deck at all. I edited the two sections that talk about him (the Blink section in Match-Ups and the Cards I've Considered section) to make it more clear that I'm only suggesting him as a solution to a problem (not being able to target creatures because of sacrifice/blink/bounce) that the deck has no good ways around that I can think of. You're right though, if someone played him across from me, I'd be thinking about how long until they combo off.
I would like to have a more on theme solution to present, and it I found one, it would probably be an auto-include in the deck. While still kind of off theme, I think a card like
You Have My Permission To Die WW
Enchantment
When You Have My Permission to Die comes into play, draw a card.
Whenever a creature leaves the battlefield, put it into its controller's graveyard instead of anywhere else.
would be pretty funny.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
One thing I noticed is that the runes of protection actually draw a fair amount of agro. People hate being stopped by them - even the threat of not being able to attack at will makes them unhappy. I had my runes blown up with in 2 turns of dropping any. Interesting dynamic.
It came down to me, Riku of Two Reflections, and Chainer, Dementia Master. Riku was the big threat at the table. There was a Basandra, Battle Seraph player, but he conceded after Riku played Rite of Replication on my Archon of Justice and copied it with Riku's ability. Earlier in the game, Chainer had dealt us all four damage with Crypt Rats so we were all at 36. I had Hissing Miasma out. Riku decides to attack me with 10 Archons instead of the also defenseless Chainer and goes down to 26. I block with my Archon and Reflect Damage one of his back at him which puts him at 22 and me at 4. Next turn, Chainer uses Hellfire and gets rid of all of the remaining Archons, but it was early enough in the game that Riku was able to get me down to three lands, destroy any defenses I had, and Chainer down to four or five lands using all the dead Archons. The abridged version is that after that, I hit Riku with Divine Deflection for 3, Rakdos Charm for 5, and Acidic Soil for 15 giving the game to the Chainer player as there was no chance to win at that point. The Chainer player got a pretty good laugh out of it though.
As for the Runes, I've never seen them targeted too much unless there was nothing else on the field to blow up with enchantment removal. Usually they're not too oppressive unless I have Chromatic Lantern out because on average, I might have access to 3-4 white mana mid game maybe, and most players seem to see that as something they can eventually get around unless they're playing mono Red and can't find that Chaos Warp.
Another thing I've been wondering about is how playing in paper with the same group of people works with the deck and if that might have anything to do with people disliking the Runes. Are you arch enemy as this deck or just in general? Once people see Acidic Soil or Backlash and know all of the deck's tricks, I would think that the way the deck is viewed and played against might change since most of the time the people I'm playing against see nothing that can even deal damage in the deck until it's used to try to kill them. Have you noticed much difference in the playgroup you play with now when using the deck when compared to when you first started using it? I'd at least imagine that the "wow" factor would be dialed down since if they know what cards you might be playing, they won't be as surprised that you have the exact right card to turn the tides against an army of 400 Soldiers attacking you.
In the case that getting a compliment from an opponent becomes too infrequent because of familiarity with the deck, I've though of adding in a deck list that solely focuses on staying alive (whether that means keeping your opponents happy or not) and punishing excess by any means necessary for players who want to be more competitive. It would probably run more controllish things like Lightmine Field for defense as an example. However, that seems like it would almost be a different, "warped" version that might not even be considered the same deck since you'll be drawing a lot more hate.
Also, I'm testing Blood Oath currently as a possible replacement for Gaze of Adamaro. I'm not sure if it will be too inconsistent or not though. It might be good against artifact decks, creature only decks, and the like, but I still need to play the card a lot more to see how it does. Scrying Glass is a card that could go well with it, but people probably don't like having their hand revealed, and I'm not 100% positive Glasses of Urza is worth a slot. Anything that combos too well with it like Head Games or Jester's Mask feels like it goes against what the deck is trying to do. Playing it in a timely manner after someone else's mass bounce effect seems good though.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I'm also playtesting Forcefield to see if it draws too much hate or not. It seems a bit more oppressive than most of the defensive cards in the deck. I'm also playtesting Orim's Prayer which HAPPENS to be a soft combat lock with Forcefield, although I'd run one without the other easy enough as they both work alright on their own. If Orim's Prayer works, I'll try out Righteous Cause, but I think that it might draw more aggro than the Prayer.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Even in that loss, it's still a pretty good showing for the deck. A nice way to exit from the game.
I am Arch Enemy in general with whatever deck I play. The general rule of thumb is to always attack me, even if I'm not in the game.
This deck is known as my "janky" deck because it runs cards that other people have never heard of (like Delirium). After a few games with this deck, people know the tricks, so I think it has to be evolved as it's played to keep them guessing. It can't be a 100 card deck, it has to be a 150 card deck that only uses 100 cards at a time to keep the element of surprise.
Yes, absolutely. This deck is now feared for it's explosive and out of nowhere wins. I rotate through my decks regularly, but I can't keep the surprises coming after the 4th or 5th game. By then, my opponents know what to expect from this deck and hold counterspells for the turn around cards.
i think evolving the deck is a great idea. On the topic of Lightmine field - it's a HUGE agro draw as no one will want to attack until it's off the field.
Brilliant cards and finds!! I think this sort of change is what the deck needs. I will try these out next time I play as well. i think I am going to cut guiltfeeder for Blood Oath. I'm also running Ricochet Trap which I may swap out for Shunt; I have yet to actually pay the one R instead of the 3R.
Have you considered Tainted Strike as a way to kill a player? I'm guessing that you wouldn't add it because randomly giving an unblocked attacking 10+ power creature infect isn't liable to give the "Well played" response you're looking for, and the slightly better giving a 10+ power creature infect and then Backlashing it isn't much better. Still thought I'd mention it.
What's your screen name on MTGO? I'm sure I've played against this deck, but not sure (I'm dj_phobos). And if you want, I'll add you to my MTGO player network thread.
Edit: Some more suggestions:
For mana "accel" - Pilgrim's Eye, Terrain Generator
For removal - Encroaching Wastes, Return to Dust
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I've actually been reconsidering Delirium lately, but still need to playtest it more. Running more than 100 cards in the paper deck and having them rotate sounds like a good idea to mix things up. Making a deck that focuses more on the "punishing excess" part of the deck as opposed to the "getting them to thank you" part is on my list of things to do I suppose. It would have a more control oriented build that uses "more competitive" cards.
Thanks! Yeah, I'm trying to stay away from Poison and Infect like you said. The closest thing that was ever in the deck that somewhat reminds me of it even a little is Ragged Veins on an opponent's creature when they're being attacked by someone else. If I've played you on MTGO, it would have been when the deck was first starting out I think. I have seen a user named PhenPhen use this deck as well though. I just happened to watch a game he was playing and it turned out he was playing this deck. I go by Rachmiel on MTGO too, and I made a post in the network thread just a second ago.
Out of those four, I like Return to Dust the most since an Aura Shards can really throw a wrench in the game plan. Encroaching Wastes could be good. I just need to make sure I'm consistently drawing enough colored mana. Pilgrim's Eye could help with that and at least provide a chump blocker, so I'll have to test it. I'm not as sure about Terrain Generator just because I've found that I usually don't have enough land in hand to make major use of it most of the time and would rather have that colored mana since some of the defensive stuff like Hissing Miasma costs two colored. I also would like to find something to protect the defense cards. Since Privileged Position isn't in the deck's colors, that kind of stinks as it's probably the best. Boros Charm COULD work but I'm not a fan of one time effects usually except for the turnaround cards, and I don't really want to go the route of using a creature that gives them shroud since the average life of a creature seems way too short.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
It draws no hate in my meta as 80% are combo of some sort.
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Also, on the topic of No Mercy effects, are there any thoughts on replacing Dread with Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts or just using her in the deck in general? Positives are that it can make spirits (which could be negative actually if I need to Rakdos Charm), it can act as a more solid wall than Dread (vigilance helps as well), and she can always go unblocked. Negatives are that she's 1 less power, can be used against me with reanimation, and costs 1 more (although she is less color intensive which could be a positive). I still need to playtest her, but I'd like to hear any opinions.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
out Hoard-Smelter Dragon, in Reliquary Tower
out Predator, Flagship, in Forcefield
out Guiltfeeder, in Orim's Prayer
out Inheritance, in Gilded Lotus
Mainly trying to make the deck a bit faster (more cards, more mana). Also have been wanting to have access to more mana in the late game for more robust Divine Deflections or the ability to shoot off even more kill spells at once. All the good mana doublers seem to either be in Green or only affect one color like Caged Sun though.
I've also begun to notice situations pop up once every so often where I have the opportunity to use a kill spell to get rid of the strongest opponent and have a very good chance of beating the other two remaining players after that due to the board state. Usually I take it (and win), but I'm beginning to also try passing on situations like that as they never produce the desired effect. In fact, if you don't win with a kill spell, it's usually a long, drawn out slugfest with Tariel hitting someone as she reanimates their stuff while you sit cozily behind your defenses. I might lose a bit more, but it might be worth it.
Also on the to-do list is still the "competitive" version of the deck, and maybe a version that cuts out all of the defensive cards in favor of cards that still aren't threatening but interact more with other players somehow? Cards like Solemn Simulacrum are good for that because they provide value, sit on the table and look pretty without being too scary, and don't make it seem like you're walling yourself off to the world. I'll have to experiment some more with that.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
This actually ended up being a one on one game pretty quickly. I think it's still a good showing of the deck though.
Also playing around with removing Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs. I think Survival Cache is an interesting card, but not sure if it's going to be effective enough. Sunstone also looks interesting, but I don't think it's on MTGO. Trying it out now as well as everything else above.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU