Added in Gilded Lotus and Forcefield and removed Guiltfeeder and Predator, Flagship. Also rearranged the individual card explanations so they're in alphabetical order as opposed to by type then alphabetical order. Added a little section at the top as well.
Had an interesting game today that kind of brought something about the deck to light. It was down to me and a Darien, King of Kjeldor player as he had wiped out the other two (Momir Vig, Simic Visionary that had been the big threat the whole game but was temporarily disabled by the Maga, Traitor to Mortals player because of a board wipe) with an army of 15/15 soldiers. I was able to hold him off for a turn with a Batwing Brume which I got from an Increasing Ambition. This put him at 22 life, and his Darien was a 22/22. I had Dong Zhou, the Tyrant in my hand, but he gained 1 life with a Pristine Talisman. I thought that would have been a great end, but instead I had to flashback Increasing Ambition, grabbing Increasing Vengeance and Rakdos Charm to finish the game. I also had Wild Ricochet and Reflect Damage in hand, but those wouldn't have done me any good against a horde of 15/15 tokens.
I guess the main thing is, I won, but no thank you this time. Probably because I had to tutor three times in a row to win, and I think it was pretty obvious what I tutored for. So I'm thinking of removing the tutors from the main deck, but maybe putting them into the "cutthroat" list when I finish it. Instead, maybe I'll replace them with something along the lines of Phyrexian Arena, Staff of Nin, or other consistent card draw? It might make the deck more inconsistent overall, but when trying to juggle the objective of winning and the deck's stated objective, there seem to be certain things which just might not be able to be compromised on. There's no guarantee that if I had been able to make the same plays without tutoring that there would have been a nicer ending, but I feel like tutoring for this win was detrimental to the strategy. In the past when I've tutored for something like Mind's Eye, that's helped greatly. I suppose just putting in more things like Mind's Eye will raise the probability of getting some good drawing power. Sunforger falls along the same lines potentially. It's just not as amazing if you're allowed to pull the right card out of your library. So, the three tutors in the deck (Increasing Ambition, Diabolic Tutor, and Sunforger) are potential chopping block candidates at the moment.
Notes are in the Change Log. Still considering Terrain Generator and Return to Dust and considering removing Inheritance as I think I have less cost intensive draw/mana accel options now.
Also added a deck by function section and added two paragraphs to the end of the "Making Them Stroke Your Ego" section explaining some things not to do as well as briefly touching upon why the deck doesn't run creature spot removal.
Here's the Stax section from the second post in the Match-Ups section (in case you haven't read it):
Quote from Rachmiel »
Stax decks are good match-ups if the stax deck doesn't end up winning the whole thing. They're also good if they're more focused on keeping creatures off the field than anything else. If a Stax deck is able to set itself up successfully and lock down the game, there's not much you can do as your lands, artifacts, and enchantments slowly get put into the graveyard. At the very best, you do have Martyr's Bond if you can get it out, but a good Stax deck should probably be running some enchantment hate. If the Stax deck makes an attempt to lock the board but gets triple teamed (which will often be the case), all they've ended up doing is slowing down the game a bit which is good for this deck. At the very least, you will not want to be aligned with them in any way socially during the game as they will be enemy of the state almost no matter what. Thankfully, since resources are so abundant in EDH and many decks are very explosive with their ramping, Stax decks can sometimes have a harder time making a quick lock.
I honestly haven't run into too many Stax decks on MTGO. But the basic rules are
They're destroying everything - Bad. We need mana and defense.
They're destroying mainly/only creatures - Good. We don't run many of those.
Your other opponents are losing to the stax player - Bad. Abundant resources are preferable to a barren board.
Your other opponents are aggressively destroying the stax player - Good. The focus isn't on you, and you now have plenty of time to build up resources to set up for the kill.
If you're left alone with a stax player, you're probably in for a bad time due to the nature of the deck. If they plan to grind out a win without playing anything flashy, big, or stupidly strong, you're toast. If they leave you with even three mana and they plan on finishing the game with a token horde, you have the chance for something like Batwing Brume or Rakdos Charm. Stax players usually like to use artifacts and enchantments, so Austere Command usually won't wreck your defenses here. If your kill spells are like fire, then flashy, big, stupidly strong stuff is like oxygen for it to feed off of. Without your opponents having abundant resources, you'll have a difficult time beating them. Usually when someone is capable of ending the game, they have something that can be used against them. The deck is high stakes by design since your best opportunity to kill an opponent is right before they kill you. You can also consider adding some kind of token production to the deck as a countermeasure to stax if your meta is heavy in it. To reiterate though, stax decks are great match-ups if they don't end up taking down the board completely since they can help you stall for time.
Well, there weren't too many cards that look like they'd be great for this deck in Theros. Here are the ones that are the most noteworthy or I feel should be at least mentioned.
Heliod, God of the Sun: Most likely, he'd never make it to creature form in 99% of the games which basically just makes him a glorified Sacred Mesa without the flying, and Tariel already has vigilance. I don't think an extra blocker with no evasion for four mana works for this deck.
Spear of Heliod: The first ability is pretty useless in this deck since we don't run creatures really. The second ability is just a worse No Mercy or Dread, so this one's out.
Erebos, God of the Dead: Here we go. Super Greed. I'm still a bit hesitant of running the black life for draw type cards though. Like Heliod, he'll probably never make it to creature form either. The part about not letting opponents gain life seems like it would make them not like me, so I'm not too thrilled about him overall.
Stormbreath Dragon: In order to "surprise" an opponent, I'd need 12 mana to activate the whole thing. I'd take it in a heartbeat with no body as an instant at 5 mana, but it seems way too costly here. REALLY wishing it was an instant for something like 3RR. :/
Burnished Hart: Six mana over two turns is a bit costly as Armillary Sphere can be popped a turn earlier. It also can take up that valuable third or fourth turn drop that would normally be filled by a defensive card. It does stand in as a blocker though. I'll reserve judgment on this one until I see it in action more. Leaning towards no though.
Temple of Silence and Temple of Triumph: Why not? If they end up being cheap enough, I'll pick them up as replacements in the main deck for two of the Guildgates. I'll update the optimized list to reflect that in the meantime.
Also, I had a good game today. I ended up getting a couple lols and a nice after playing Netherborn Phalanx the turn after someone played Storm Herd. It almost got the other players too, but not quite. Ended up winning, but the compliment came in the middle of the game. I normally wouldn't play it then, but I was going to definitely lose next turn otherwise since I didn't have a Batwing Brume in hand or anything like Thunderstaff, Crawlspace, or Righteous Cause out. On a similar note, I had a game the other day where I got to cast Wild Ricochet on Phthisis targeting something like two 17/18 creatures (the player had an army of at least 12 of them).
Theros Update: Erebos, God of the Dead: Here we go. Super Greed. I'm still a bit hesitant of running the black life for draw type cards though. Like Heliod, he'll probably never make it to creature form either. The part about not letting opponents gain life seems like it would make them not like me, so I'm not too thrilled about him overall.
I think Im in the minority, but I am not impressed with this guy vs Greed. He's more life to use and being indestructible, while awesome, is only a factor while he's not a creature. In this deck, he's better than most other decks where he will have devotion, but I still think we could get enough mileage out of greed.
I think Im in the minority, but I am not impressed with this guy vs Greed. He's more life to use and being indestructible, while awesome, is only a factor while he's not a creature. In this deck, he's better than most other decks where he will have devotion, but I still think we could get enough mileage out of greed.
I like Greed a bit better than some of the other black card draw just because it's controllable. I'd be a lot more comfortable running it if there were more ways to negate the life loss other than Righteous Cause though, but I also don't want to run life gain for the sake of life gain. I think of Righteous Cause more like a Thunderstaff that also activates when other people are attacked.
Edit: Had another good game today where the deck got compliments multiple times...but it was during the middle of the game. Which is fine I guess. Ended up winning that one as well since I was playing mainly against two aggro players and that's basically this deck's bread and butter.
Soul Conduit: While I'm fairly sure of the other two, I'm not quite as sure on this one. Repay in Kind already does what I want this to, but it has been useful in the past.
Thanks to cryogen and the others for looking over the thread.
Also a special thanks to trancekat for basically being here for the entire life of the thread and offering great suggestions such as Increasing Vengeance.
I've added spoilers to the table of contents so it looks a little nicer. I've also added a subsection in the Deck Strategy section called "Your Role in This Deck". Finally, I've added a Set Updates section which includes the Theros post on this page.
Congrats!! Well deserved! Glad I can help a little bit with you awesome deck idea! Thank you again for sharing it and updating it. I love playing this deck.
Congrats!! Well deserved! Glad I can help a little bit with you awesome deck idea! Thank you again for sharing it and updating it. I love playing this deck.
I've been searching for two cards to replace Martyr's Bond and Inheritance with, and at this point, the two most likely would be Return to Dust and Burnished Hart. For both cards, I'd like to wait for the release of Theros on MTGO probably (Burnished Hart so I can actually try it out and RtD so I can see just how big of a splash the God cards end up making). Torpor Orb would be super appealing for stopping both Purphoros, God of the Forge and Aura Shards (not to mention Sylvan Primordial and Deadeye Navigator), but it would probably make me enemy of the state. Trading Post looks interesting, but not quite sure I could get quite enough mileage out of it in this deck or not.
I had an interesting game today that brought up a deck interaction I hadn't seen before. I had Phyrexian Unlife, Hissing Miasma, Blood Reckoning, and Righteous Cause out. After an intense and loooong back and forth between Isperia, Supreme Judge and Braids, Conjurer Adept (not group hug), the Sliver Queen player (who had overextended early and basically been left in the dust most of the game) plays Nature's Revolt and Massacre Wurm. This instantly knocks out Braids, puts me to about 15, and puts Isperia close to death so he concedes. I'm attacked for a bit of damage, putting me somewhere around 7 I think.
I end up winning because he accidentally attacked with too many creatures, but the cool thing I had never seen before involves Phyrexian Unlife and Righteous Cause. Because of this ruling:
Phyrexian Unlife won't affect damage that reduces your life total from a positive number to 0 or less. For example, if you're at 3 life and are dealt 5 damage, you'll end up at -2 life. The next time you're dealt damage, it will be dealt as though its source had infect.
I ended up at -5 life...then after he attacked again the next turn, I ended up at -7 life with no poison counters. It's because I gained more life with Righteous Cause (which we had both auto-yielded to so the whole thing happened very quickly). Either way, he accidentally attacked with too much, but I found that pretty funny.
Also, I've been having some good games recently with being complimented whether I ended up winning or not. Mirror Strike into a 55/55 Omnath, Locus of Mana is always good for a laugh. Still waiting to try out Burnished Hart. Also, I'm subbing in Survival Cache in the meantime, and it actually hasn't been that bad for me so far.
Had a pretty good and GRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINDY game against Glissa Stax the other day. Finally finished it with a Netherborn Phalanx followed immediately by a Stronghold Discipline after he had played Avenger of Zendikar. I got lucky because he had tapped out that turn and just played Claws of Gix. A "Very good game" followed.
Had a nice game with MTGS' own Donald by chance today. He was playing Maelstrom Wanderer group hug/chaos which made our game...interesting lol. His Eye of the Storm and Grip of Chaos helped me to hit the Thassa, God of the Sea player with Rakdos Charm over and over since he had five creatures out. Erebos, God of the Dead was there too and he wasn't quite as scary as I had imagined...even if he did neuter my Sun Droplet and I think I had let my imagination run wild with how bad he would be to play against. I THINK I would have won if the game didn't bug out. Thasa would have had to be able to deal with a lethal Acidic Soil followed by an also lethal Netherborn Phalanx. Something like Time Stop would have worked as well if they didn't have two counterspells. I had only seen one counterspell in their deck the whole game though (Spell Crumple), and they had five cards in hand. Didn't get a chance to ask him what he was holding after the game. :/ Erebos and Wanderer were already out at that point. Either way, it was a pretty fun game.
Well, here's the Commander 2013 update. Really wish there had been some bi-colored legends. If anyone wants me to elaborate more on any card, I can, but I just didn't see much for the deck in this set. The update can also be found in the second post on the first page.
I was really excited for this set. I really was. All it ended up giving was a bunch of things that are good against this deck though (I'm looking at you Bane of Progress and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic). :/ Oh well. The general that I thought was the most interesting was Shattergang Brothers although I wish the art were different. Anyway, here are my thoughts on some of the cards that I think are worth commenting on.
Mystic Barrier: We want cards that allow everyone to attack each other. Limiting who everyone can attack isn't our style here and is a bit too controlling.
Serene Master: This is a really funny card, and if EDH decks had 1,000 cards in them, I might put this one in. I just don't think it's versatile enough to deserve a slot without flying or something else.
Baleful Force: We still don't run enough life gain to really take advantage of Black's life for cards stuff. Even if we did, running big creatures that can smash face (besides Dread I guess) isn't what we want to do.
Price of Knowledge: Close, but we don't want to be advertising our kill cards and waving them in front of our opponents until we actually kill them.
Terra Ravager: Again, the effect is nice, but it moves at the pace of a snail. Far too slow to be used in this deck. This card and Price of Knowledge are probably the two that most closely fit the deck, but the execution of them are both no good.
Hi Rachmeil,
I want to remind you that I (and probably many other people) really appreciate you continuing to post updates here, even if we don't post as much.
Anyway, I had a game on Wednesday where I won (1-0 that night with this deck) a game that got kudos from everyone there. The guy I beat said, "Wow, that's awesome" and one of the other guys there said, "that was really nice".
He swung in with some critter and took me to -4, which actually brought me to 0 thanks to unlife. He read the errata on unlife and agreed that I was at 0, and passed turn.
I top decked Demonic Tutor and since we needed to end the game, I pulled Repay In Kind which I then played for the win.
It was a game that went about an hour, but everyone enjoyed it a lot.
Some notes from the night - Hoarde Smelter Dragon pulls a lot of agro, as does Dread and Tariel herself. I have to update my build to something closer to what you have on the front page (is that the most up to date by the way?). I am planning on adding Blood Oath and cutting the Dragon, but I am a little concerned with the loss of a blocker. If we only had a flying chump blocker generator (perhaps Hornet Cannon, or something from this: http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22token+with+flying%22+c!rwbc+and+not+t%3Asorcery+and+not+t%3Ainstant&v=card&s=cname).
Hi Rachmeil,
I want to remind you that I (and probably many other people) really appreciate you continuing to post updates here, even if we don't post as much.
Anyway, I had a game on Wednesday where I won (1-0 that night with this deck) a game that got kudos from everyone there. The guy I beat said, "Wow, that's awesome" and one of the other guys there said, "that was really nice".
He swung in with some critter and took me to -4, which actually brought me to 0 thanks to unlife. He read the errata on unlife and agreed that I was at 0, and passed turn.
I top decked Demonic Tutor and since we needed to end the game, I pulled Repay In Kind which I then played for the win.
It was a game that went about an hour, but everyone enjoyed it a lot.
Some notes from the night - Hoarde Smelter Dragon pulls a lot of agro, as does Dread and Tariel herself. I have to update my build to something closer to what you have on the front page (is that the most up to date by the way?). I am planning on adding Blood Oath and cutting the Dragon, but I am a little concerned with the loss of a blocker. If we only had a flying chump blocker generator (perhaps Hornet Cannon, or something from this: http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22token+with+flying%22+c!rwbc+and+not+t%3Asorcery+and+not+t%3Ainstant&v=card&s=cname).
thoughts?
No worries. Glad to see the deck is still providing fun games! Always fun to see Repay in Kind go off after Phyrexian Unlife has been played.
The deck list on the front page is indeed the most up to date version which no longer has Hoard-Smelter Dragon in it. I haven't really seen Dread or Tariel pull any aggro, but I did used to see the dragon have that effect. I only play Dread and Tariel when I've got no other defenses out or I think that the defenses I have out aren't persuasive enough given the specific threats that are on the field. I haven't felt the need for a repeatable blocker like Hornet Cannon, but if there's a need for it in your meta, I don't think it would hurt to try it out. Out of the list you linked, Sacred Mesa is the only other one I might consider since the flying creatures aren't that big and they're easy to get rid of. The only problem is, even if you're playing it like you would the Hornet Cannon and only making the minimum amount of Pegasus tokens needed to block, you'll still probably run into late game situations where there's no reason not to make an army of them and attack which isn't really what the deck wants to do. So on second thought, Hornet Cannon is probably the best of the bunch of them.
Since September, I've only added in two defensive cards (Forcefield and Righteous Cause although Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs was removed for one of them), so if the list you're using hasn't been updated since before then, those will help against flying creatures a little maybe. I've also added in a lot more mana accel/card draw in that time too though, so the existing defensive cards should come up a bit more quickly. Additionally, Weathered Wayfarer and Burnished Hart have both been added in which can serve as chump blockers, although they don't have flying.
I like this deck and the concept a lot. Do you just play on MTGO? It just feels like this wouldn't work against the same group for very long unless you only brought it out a couple times a month.
I like this deck and the concept a lot. Do you just play on MTGO? It just feels like this wouldn't work against the same group for very long unless you only brought it out a couple times a month.
Thanks! Yeah, I typically just play this deck on MTGO, and I don't have much experience playing this deck in any kind of defined playgroup or meta. However, when you take away the goal of getting people to give compliments, the deck still functions very well as described in the "What Kind of Deck is This?" section in the first post which is a deck that punishes the abundance of resources.
Additionally, trancekat has been playing the deck in what I believe is a single playgroup in paper for a bit now, and he seems to have good results with it which you can read in some of his posts. If played in a single playgroup, it might be the type of deck you'd want to bring out every so often or switch out some of the cards to change things up a bit IF your goal is the compliments stuff. Otherwise, if your meta is prone to armies of creatures, giant hands, and half their library on the field, this deck won't get old too quickly. It really depends on your playgroup though I think.
I imported your decklist into MTGO as it is easier for me to get a feel of the deck looking at it in there, and i noticed it is only 72 cards. Is this intentional? What do I need to add or is that up to me?
Additionally, trancekat has been playing the deck in what I believe is a single playgroup in paper for a bit now, and he seems to have good results with it which you can read in some of his posts.
Yes, I play it on paper and have had very good win rates (so far it's 6 wins out of 9 games with this deck).
I use a different approach. I have about 120 cards in the deck and change which 100 I bring to the table. That usually keeps my friends guessing enough to eek out a win, but to be honest, I also play some mind games and labled this "my jank" deck (it's not my deck, and it's certainly not jank).
I also give them a hard time (jokingly) when they attack me while I have no board state. They're starting to catch on though and I'll have to start playing different decks for a while.
I imported your decklist into MTGO as it is easier for me to get a feel of the deck looking at it in there, and i noticed it is only 72 cards. Is this intentional? What do I need to add or is that up to me?
The only thing I can think of is that in the deck list in the first post, it lists 8 Mountains, 11 Plains, and 9 Swamps. When you hit the import button, maybe it's only reading them as 1 card each? There should definitely be 99 cards plus Tariel.
Love your deck! My own tariel is way more generic, but it's also pretty new, who knows what it will become. One card that immediately comes to my mind is Dawn Charm. Fog, regenerate, and counterspell in one. Wonder if you tried it out. cheers and keep those vids coming!
Thanks! I honestly haven't tried out Dawn Charm before, but it could be good. I don't think the regeneration mode would get a lot of play in this deck, but I think that the others might. At the same time, I'd rather have Batwing Brume or Wild Ricochet in hand probably. The charm I've actually most been considering is Boros Charm because of the indestructibility mode which is looking more and more tempting because of Bane of Progress. I've also only usually been playing on weekends lately because of work (although I'll still get on to watch plenty of games during the week), but I'll try to hopefully get into some games that result in videos.
Yes, I play it on paper and have had very good win rates (so far it's 6 wins out of 9 games with this deck).
I use a different approach. I have about 120 cards in the deck and change which 100 I bring to the table. That usually keeps my friends guessing enough to eek out a win, but to be honest, I also play some mind games and labled this "my jank" deck (it's not my deck, and it's certainly not jank).
I also give them a hard time (jokingly) when they attack me while I have no board state. They're starting to catch on though and I'll have to start playing different decks for a while.
Yeah, switching out the cards in this deck to keep things fresh in paper is definitely a good option, and it's a good excuse to try out new cards. I can't say that I win 6 out of every 9 games online lol but it's certainly capable of that depending largely upon the prevalence of good aggro decks in the meta I think (and a little luck).
Just wanted to post to say what a great primer this is. I'm currently in the process of putting this deck together. I've found myself in a position within my playgroup that takes kind of a leadership role. I'm constantly urging players to make new decks or unusual plays that lead to new and exciting outcomes to each game. I think this deck is just the type of deck that will do that.
I've always been more interested in having a long and fun game then who the actual winner is.
One card I thought would be a good fit that I haven't seem mentioned thus far is Reverberate.
It's the same effect as Increasing Vengeance without the flashback but you can copy your opponents spells. Wild Ricochet is great as it is but sometimes your just a few mana short of being able to copy your own spell. I think I might find myself wanting the cheaper mana cost as opposed to being able to redirect an opponents spell.
I will be playing with the same playgroup and will definitely be using 120+ cards and rotating them in and out as suggested. I think this will be a great way to keep your opponents guessing and always implementing unique gamestates/plays.
Thanks for the constant dedication to this primer. Im looking forward to more updates as different cards are released and tried. I'll certainty be reporting back with my game updates once the deck is complete!
Just wanted to post to say what a great primer this is. I'm currently in the process of putting this deck together. I've found myself in a position within my playgroup that takes kind of a leadership role. I'm constantly urging players to make new decks or unusual plays that lead to new and exciting outcomes to each game. I think this deck is just the type of deck that will do that.
I've always been more interested in having a long and fun game then who the actual winner is.
One card I thought would be a good fit that I haven't seem mentioned thus far is Reverberate.
It's the same effect as Increasing Vengeance without the flashback but you can copy your opponents spells. Wild Ricochet is great as it is but sometimes your just a few mana short of being able to copy your own spell. I think I might find myself wanting the cheaper mana cost as opposed to being able to redirect an opponents spell.
I will be playing with the same playgroup and will definitely be using 120+ cards and rotating them in and out as suggested. I think this will be a great way to keep your opponents guessing and always implementing unique gamestates/plays.
Thanks for the constant dedication to this primer. Im looking forward to more updates as different cards are released and tried. I'll certainty be reporting back with my game updates once the deck is complete!
Thanks! Hope it works well for you and your group! Reverberate is absolutely a card that could be subbed in for Wild Ricochet, especially depending upon the meta. The reason I use Wild Ricochet over it is because I still see Time Stretch played enough online to warrant it. Sometimes you just need to copy your own spell to finish off the game with a Rakdos Charm or Acidic Soil and spending two less (4 vs. 6 or 5 vs. 7) would definitely be preferable.
I think there may be a small update to the deck from the Commander 2013 product after all possibly, but it probably won't be anything major. I'll definitely update with thoughts on Born of the Gods cards when the full spoiler is released. Additionally, finally got a bunch of "outside of work" work stuff off my plate so, I think I might be able to play a little more magic hopefully. I look forward to seeing how the deck works for you!
Thanks! Hope it works well for you and your group! Reverberate is absolutely a card that could be subbed in for Wild Ricochet, especially depending upon the meta. The reason I use Wild Ricochet over it is because I still see Time Stretch played enough online to warrant it. Sometimes you just need to copy your own spell to finish off the game with a Rakdos Charm or Acidic Soil and spending two less (4 vs. 6 or 5 vs. 7) would definitely be preferable.
I think there may be a small update to the deck from the Commander 2013 product after all possibly, but it probably won't be anything major. I'll definitely update with thoughts on Born of the Gods cards when the full spoiler is released. Additionally, finally got a bunch of "outside of work" work stuff off my plate so, I think I might be able to play a little more magic hopefully. I look forward to seeing how the deck works for you!
I definitely agree that both Wild Ricochet and Reverberate have their advantages in different metas.
In other news i've completed the deck and have had nothing but successful games since i've played it! My playgroup loves it since it usually involves unique endings and at the very least it punishes the person who is so very far ahead of everyone else. My favorite thing about the deck is how entertaining it is to pilot and play against. Even now that my playgroup knows I have some trick up my sleeve they still don't know what to fully expect. Even win or loss is always entertaining. (and I must say I do happen to be winning more often then i thought I would)
Reflecting 333,000,000 damage from an artifact creature back at its controller (the player had infinite mana and decided to make the creature that exact number of power/toughness).
Ultimately winning a long drawn out game with many shenanigans (A Zedruu deck was playing) after being at 1 health for 6+ turns by using Soul Conduit to exchange life totals with the last player left and hitting him with Tariel, Reckoner of Souls.
The deck has been extremely successful thus far and I play to add and remove cards accordingly. I love to try new things. I'll certainly be back with updates to share!
Thanks again!
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Thanks!
Added in Gilded Lotus and Forcefield and removed Guiltfeeder and Predator, Flagship. Also rearranged the individual card explanations so they're in alphabetical order as opposed to by type then alphabetical order. Added a little section at the top as well.
Still on the chopping block are Hoard-Smelter Dragon, Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, and Inheritance possibly. Possible additions are Reliquary Tower, Orim's Prayer or Righteous Cause, and Survival Cache. Also now considering Return to Dust more strongly with the introduction of those God cards from Theros.
Edit: Maybe Doubling Cube as well? It'll probably be too slow though in this deck.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I guess the main thing is, I won, but no thank you this time. Probably because I had to tutor three times in a row to win, and I think it was pretty obvious what I tutored for. So I'm thinking of removing the tutors from the main deck, but maybe putting them into the "cutthroat" list when I finish it. Instead, maybe I'll replace them with something along the lines of Phyrexian Arena, Staff of Nin, or other consistent card draw? It might make the deck more inconsistent overall, but when trying to juggle the objective of winning and the deck's stated objective, there seem to be certain things which just might not be able to be compromised on. There's no guarantee that if I had been able to make the same plays without tutoring that there would have been a nicer ending, but I feel like tutoring for this win was detrimental to the strategy. In the past when I've tutored for something like Mind's Eye, that's helped greatly. I suppose just putting in more things like Mind's Eye will raise the probability of getting some good drawing power. Sunforger falls along the same lines potentially. It's just not as amazing if you're allowed to pull the right card out of your library. So, the three tutors in the deck (Increasing Ambition, Diabolic Tutor, and Sunforger) are potential chopping block candidates at the moment.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Removed:
Hoard-Smelter Dragon
Archon of Justice
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Sunforger
Diabolic Tutor
Increasing Ambition
Added:
Righteous Cause
Buried Ruin
Reliquary Tower
Gift of Estates
Staff of Nin
Weathered Wayfarer
Notes are in the Change Log. Still considering Terrain Generator and Return to Dust and considering removing Inheritance as I think I have less cost intensive draw/mana accel options now.
Also added a deck by function section and added two paragraphs to the end of the "Making Them Stroke Your Ego" section explaining some things not to do as well as briefly touching upon why the deck doesn't run creature spot removal.
Here's the Stax section from the second post in the Match-Ups section (in case you haven't read it):
I honestly haven't run into too many Stax decks on MTGO. But the basic rules are
They're destroying everything - Bad. We need mana and defense.
They're destroying mainly/only creatures - Good. We don't run many of those.
Your other opponents are losing to the stax player - Bad. Abundant resources are preferable to a barren board.
Your other opponents are aggressively destroying the stax player - Good. The focus isn't on you, and you now have plenty of time to build up resources to set up for the kill.
If you're left alone with a stax player, you're probably in for a bad time due to the nature of the deck. If they plan to grind out a win without playing anything flashy, big, or stupidly strong, you're toast. If they leave you with even three mana and they plan on finishing the game with a token horde, you have the chance for something like Batwing Brume or Rakdos Charm. Stax players usually like to use artifacts and enchantments, so Austere Command usually won't wreck your defenses here. If your kill spells are like fire, then flashy, big, stupidly strong stuff is like oxygen for it to feed off of. Without your opponents having abundant resources, you'll have a difficult time beating them. Usually when someone is capable of ending the game, they have something that can be used against them. The deck is high stakes by design since your best opportunity to kill an opponent is right before they kill you. You can also consider adding some kind of token production to the deck as a countermeasure to stax if your meta is heavy in it. To reiterate though, stax decks are great match-ups if they don't end up taking down the board completely since they can help you stall for time.
Edit: Also added Land Tax to the Optimized Deck List in place of Gift of Estates.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Well, there weren't too many cards that look like they'd be great for this deck in Theros. Here are the ones that are the most noteworthy or I feel should be at least mentioned.
Heliod, God of the Sun: Most likely, he'd never make it to creature form in 99% of the games which basically just makes him a glorified Sacred Mesa without the flying, and Tariel already has vigilance. I don't think an extra blocker with no evasion for four mana works for this deck.
Spear of Heliod: The first ability is pretty useless in this deck since we don't run creatures really. The second ability is just a worse No Mercy or Dread, so this one's out.
Erebos, God of the Dead: Here we go. Super Greed. I'm still a bit hesitant of running the black life for draw type cards though. Like Heliod, he'll probably never make it to creature form either. The part about not letting opponents gain life seems like it would make them not like me, so I'm not too thrilled about him overall.
Stormbreath Dragon: In order to "surprise" an opponent, I'd need 12 mana to activate the whole thing. I'd take it in a heartbeat with no body as an instant at 5 mana, but it seems way too costly here. REALLY wishing it was an instant for something like 3RR. :/
Burnished Hart: Six mana over two turns is a bit costly as Armillary Sphere can be popped a turn earlier. It also can take up that valuable third or fourth turn drop that would normally be filled by a defensive card. It does stand in as a blocker though. I'll reserve judgment on this one until I see it in action more. Leaning towards no though.
Temple of Silence and Temple of Triumph: Why not? If they end up being cheap enough, I'll pick them up as replacements in the main deck for two of the Guildgates. I'll update the optimized list to reflect that in the meantime.
Also, I had a good game today. I ended up getting a couple lols and a nice after playing Netherborn Phalanx the turn after someone played Storm Herd. It almost got the other players too, but not quite. Ended up winning, but the compliment came in the middle of the game. I normally wouldn't play it then, but I was going to definitely lose next turn otherwise since I didn't have a Batwing Brume in hand or anything like Thunderstaff, Crawlspace, or Righteous Cause out. On a similar note, I had a game the other day where I got to cast Wild Ricochet on Phthisis targeting something like two 17/18 creatures (the player had an army of at least 12 of them).
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I think Im in the minority, but I am not impressed with this guy vs Greed. He's more life to use and being indestructible, while awesome, is only a factor while he's not a creature. In this deck, he's better than most other decks where he will have devotion, but I still think we could get enough mileage out of greed.
I like Greed a bit better than some of the other black card draw just because it's controllable. I'd be a lot more comfortable running it if there were more ways to negate the life loss other than Righteous Cause though, but I also don't want to run life gain for the sake of life gain. I think of Righteous Cause more like a Thunderstaff that also activates when other people are attacked.
Edit: Had another good game today where the deck got compliments multiple times...but it was during the middle of the game. Which is fine I guess. Ended up winning that one as well since I was playing mainly against two aggro players and that's basically this deck's bread and butter.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Chopping block:
Inheritance: Too costly. Probably could fill the slot with something better.
Martyr's Bond: For six mana, it's just not that useful. Probably won't replace it with Karmic Justice.
Soul Conduit: While I'm fairly sure of the other two, I'm not quite as sure on this one. Repay in Kind already does what I want this to, but it has been useful in the past.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Thanks to cryogen and the others for looking over the thread.
Also a special thanks to trancekat for basically being here for the entire life of the thread and offering great suggestions such as Increasing Vengeance.
I've added spoilers to the table of contents so it looks a little nicer. I've also added a subsection in the Deck Strategy section called "Your Role in This Deck". Finally, I've added a Set Updates section which includes the Theros post on this page.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Thank you both very much!
Some updates...
I've been searching for two cards to replace Martyr's Bond and Inheritance with, and at this point, the two most likely would be Return to Dust and Burnished Hart. For both cards, I'd like to wait for the release of Theros on MTGO probably (Burnished Hart so I can actually try it out and RtD so I can see just how big of a splash the God cards end up making). Torpor Orb would be super appealing for stopping both Purphoros, God of the Forge and Aura Shards (not to mention Sylvan Primordial and Deadeye Navigator), but it would probably make me enemy of the state. Trading Post looks interesting, but not quite sure I could get quite enough mileage out of it in this deck or not.
Edit: Added Boseiju, Who Shelters All to the optimized deck list. That should help ensure Sudden Impact makes it through Forbid.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I end up winning because he accidentally attacked with too many creatures, but the cool thing I had never seen before involves Phyrexian Unlife and Righteous Cause. Because of this ruling:
I ended up at -5 life...then after he attacked again the next turn, I ended up at -7 life with no poison counters. It's because I gained more life with Righteous Cause (which we had both auto-yielded to so the whole thing happened very quickly). Either way, he accidentally attacked with too much, but I found that pretty funny.
Also, I've been having some good games recently with being complimented whether I ended up winning or not. Mirror Strike into a 55/55 Omnath, Locus of Mana is always good for a laugh. Still waiting to try out Burnished Hart. Also, I'm subbing in Survival Cache in the meantime, and it actually hasn't been that bad for me so far.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Had a pretty good and GRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINDY game against Glissa Stax the other day. Finally finished it with a Netherborn Phalanx followed immediately by a Stronghold Discipline after he had played Avenger of Zendikar. I got lucky because he had tapped out that turn and just played Claws of Gix. A "Very good game" followed.
Had a nice game with MTGS' own Donald by chance today. He was playing Maelstrom Wanderer group hug/chaos which made our game...interesting lol. His Eye of the Storm and Grip of Chaos helped me to hit the Thassa, God of the Sea player with Rakdos Charm over and over since he had five creatures out. Erebos, God of the Dead was there too and he wasn't quite as scary as I had imagined...even if he did neuter my Sun Droplet and I think I had let my imagination run wild with how bad he would be to play against. I THINK I would have won if the game didn't bug out. Thasa would have had to be able to deal with a lethal Acidic Soil followed by an also lethal Netherborn Phalanx. Something like Time Stop would have worked as well if they didn't have two counterspells. I had only seen one counterspell in their deck the whole game though (Spell Crumple), and they had five cards in hand. Didn't get a chance to ask him what he was holding after the game. :/ Erebos and Wanderer were already out at that point. Either way, it was a pretty fun game.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I want to remind you that I (and probably many other people) really appreciate you continuing to post updates here, even if we don't post as much.
Anyway, I had a game on Wednesday where I won (1-0 that night with this deck) a game that got kudos from everyone there. The guy I beat said, "Wow, that's awesome" and one of the other guys there said, "that was really nice".
I was at 26 life, and he was at 32 or so. I had Rune: R, G out as well as Thunderstaff and Phyrexian Unlife. No blockers though. He had Master of Cruelties and swung in. I was holding a few turn around cards + Wild Ricochet. I think I had Captain's Maneuver, Rakdos Charm, and Divine Deflection with about 14 mana open. I let him through and went to 1, knowing I was pretty safe regardless.
He passes turn, and I drop a land and passed.
He swung in with some critter and took me to -4, which actually brought me to 0 thanks to unlife. He read the errata on unlife and agreed that I was at 0, and passed turn.
I top decked Demonic Tutor and since we needed to end the game, I pulled Repay In Kind which I then played for the win.
It was a game that went about an hour, but everyone enjoyed it a lot.
Some notes from the night - Hoarde Smelter Dragon pulls a lot of agro, as does Dread and Tariel herself. I have to update my build to something closer to what you have on the front page (is that the most up to date by the way?). I am planning on adding Blood Oath and cutting the Dragon, but I am a little concerned with the loss of a blocker. If we only had a flying chump blocker generator (perhaps Hornet Cannon, or something from this: http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22token+with+flying%22+c!rwbc+and+not+t%3Asorcery+and+not+t%3Ainstant&v=card&s=cname).
thoughts?
No worries. Glad to see the deck is still providing fun games! Always fun to see Repay in Kind go off after Phyrexian Unlife has been played.
The deck list on the front page is indeed the most up to date version which no longer has Hoard-Smelter Dragon in it. I haven't really seen Dread or Tariel pull any aggro, but I did used to see the dragon have that effect. I only play Dread and Tariel when I've got no other defenses out or I think that the defenses I have out aren't persuasive enough given the specific threats that are on the field. I haven't felt the need for a repeatable blocker like Hornet Cannon, but if there's a need for it in your meta, I don't think it would hurt to try it out. Out of the list you linked, Sacred Mesa is the only other one I might consider since the flying creatures aren't that big and they're easy to get rid of. The only problem is, even if you're playing it like you would the Hornet Cannon and only making the minimum amount of Pegasus tokens needed to block, you'll still probably run into late game situations where there's no reason not to make an army of them and attack which isn't really what the deck wants to do. So on second thought, Hornet Cannon is probably the best of the bunch of them.
Since September, I've only added in two defensive cards (Forcefield and Righteous Cause although Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs was removed for one of them), so if the list you're using hasn't been updated since before then, those will help against flying creatures a little maybe. I've also added in a lot more mana accel/card draw in that time too though, so the existing defensive cards should come up a bit more quickly. Additionally, Weathered Wayfarer and Burnished Hart have both been added in which can serve as chump blockers, although they don't have flying.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Thanks! Yeah, I typically just play this deck on MTGO, and I don't have much experience playing this deck in any kind of defined playgroup or meta. However, when you take away the goal of getting people to give compliments, the deck still functions very well as described in the "What Kind of Deck is This?" section in the first post which is a deck that punishes the abundance of resources.
Additionally, trancekat has been playing the deck in what I believe is a single playgroup in paper for a bit now, and he seems to have good results with it which you can read in some of his posts. If played in a single playgroup, it might be the type of deck you'd want to bring out every so often or switch out some of the cards to change things up a bit IF your goal is the compliments stuff. Otherwise, if your meta is prone to armies of creatures, giant hands, and half their library on the field, this deck won't get old too quickly. It really depends on your playgroup though I think.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Yes, I play it on paper and have had very good win rates (so far it's 6 wins out of 9 games with this deck).
I use a different approach. I have about 120 cards in the deck and change which 100 I bring to the table. That usually keeps my friends guessing enough to eek out a win, but to be honest, I also play some mind games and labled this "my jank" deck (it's not my deck, and it's certainly not jank).
I also give them a hard time (jokingly) when they attack me while I have no board state. They're starting to catch on though and I'll have to start playing different decks for a while.
The only thing I can think of is that in the deck list in the first post, it lists 8 Mountains, 11 Plains, and 9 Swamps. When you hit the import button, maybe it's only reading them as 1 card each? There should definitely be 99 cards plus Tariel.
Thanks! I honestly haven't tried out Dawn Charm before, but it could be good. I don't think the regeneration mode would get a lot of play in this deck, but I think that the others might. At the same time, I'd rather have Batwing Brume or Wild Ricochet in hand probably. The charm I've actually most been considering is Boros Charm because of the indestructibility mode which is looking more and more tempting because of Bane of Progress. I've also only usually been playing on weekends lately because of work (although I'll still get on to watch plenty of games during the week), but I'll try to hopefully get into some games that result in videos.
Yeah, switching out the cards in this deck to keep things fresh in paper is definitely a good option, and it's a good excuse to try out new cards. I can't say that I win 6 out of every 9 games online lol but it's certainly capable of that depending largely upon the prevalence of good aggro decks in the meta I think (and a little luck).
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Just wanted to post to say what a great primer this is. I'm currently in the process of putting this deck together. I've found myself in a position within my playgroup that takes kind of a leadership role. I'm constantly urging players to make new decks or unusual plays that lead to new and exciting outcomes to each game. I think this deck is just the type of deck that will do that.
I've always been more interested in having a long and fun game then who the actual winner is.
One card I thought would be a good fit that I haven't seem mentioned thus far is Reverberate.
It's the same effect as Increasing Vengeance without the flashback but you can copy your opponents spells. Wild Ricochet is great as it is but sometimes your just a few mana short of being able to copy your own spell. I think I might find myself wanting the cheaper mana cost as opposed to being able to redirect an opponents spell.
I will be playing with the same playgroup and will definitely be using 120+ cards and rotating them in and out as suggested. I think this will be a great way to keep your opponents guessing and always implementing unique gamestates/plays.
Thanks for the constant dedication to this primer. Im looking forward to more updates as different cards are released and tried. I'll certainty be reporting back with my game updates once the deck is complete!
Thanks! Hope it works well for you and your group! Reverberate is absolutely a card that could be subbed in for Wild Ricochet, especially depending upon the meta. The reason I use Wild Ricochet over it is because I still see Time Stretch played enough online to warrant it. Sometimes you just need to copy your own spell to finish off the game with a Rakdos Charm or Acidic Soil and spending two less (4 vs. 6 or 5 vs. 7) would definitely be preferable.
I think there may be a small update to the deck from the Commander 2013 product after all possibly, but it probably won't be anything major. I'll definitely update with thoughts on Born of the Gods cards when the full spoiler is released. Additionally, finally got a bunch of "outside of work" work stuff off my plate so, I think I might be able to play a little more magic hopefully. I look forward to seeing how the deck works for you!
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
I definitely agree that both Wild Ricochet and Reverberate have their advantages in different metas.
In other news i've completed the deck and have had nothing but successful games since i've played it! My playgroup loves it since it usually involves unique endings and at the very least it punishes the person who is so very far ahead of everyone else. My favorite thing about the deck is how entertaining it is to pilot and play against. Even now that my playgroup knows I have some trick up my sleeve they still don't know what to fully expect. Even win or loss is always entertaining. (and I must say I do happen to be winning more often then i thought I would)
A few of my more notable games outcomes are:
Playing Repay in Kind in a 4 player game after i've been "eliminated" but still alive with Phyrexian Unlife
Reflecting 333,000,000 damage from an artifact creature back at its controller (the player had infinite mana and decided to make the creature that exact number of power/toughness).
Ultimately winning a long drawn out game with many shenanigans (A Zedruu deck was playing) after being at 1 health for 6+ turns by using Soul Conduit to exchange life totals with the last player left and hitting him with Tariel, Reckoner of Souls.
The deck has been extremely successful thus far and I play to add and remove cards accordingly. I love to try new things. I'll certainly be back with updates to share!
Thanks again!