MTG Salvation

Okay, I've added that "Other Commanders" section and talked about Gisela specifically. Also added a few more cards to the maybe-list.

This is what I'm running. Of note is the set of red copy spell effects. Today I won a game (only game I played with this deck) by using Rakdos Charm and Increasing Vengence'ing it.

Glad your game went well! I'll try running Wild Ricochet again in place of Grisly Spectacle to test it out. Increasing Vengeance as well. Grisly Spectacle has admittedly never won me a game yet, so that's probably a good call.

I've also put some card pics back in the thread. If anyone sees text running onto them, please let me know. Edit: Took them out again because of the character limit :(.

Finally, would videos of prior matches with commentary be a thing that people would be interested in, or would that just be boring?

I have/had the same deck, cept it sucked. And Kaalia was the general. This revived it for me. Imma try to make my deck as good as yours.

Quote from TheEndIsNear

I have/had the same deck, cept it sucked. And Kaalia was the general. This revived it for me. Imma try to make my deck as good as yours.

Sounds awesome! Good luck with it!

Also, added a new section called "What Kind of Deck is This?". While the strategy section deals with a lot of things, I thought that it didn't express a more macro-level nature of the deck well enough.

Edit: Also, made the thread a little less "vertical".

You know, reading more of your post gave me that you didn't find an answer to my all time problem:

I play with the same players over and over.

Mine had a punisher subtheme to make everyone low enough for my stuff to work and make my retaliation cards more dangerous (8 damage at 40 and 16 are not the same) but it makes people more likely to attack me though, but that can help if I got the cards. It has a lot of punishing if you go against me too, which helps the defense.

Admittedly, this deck has never been tested in a single playgroup since I pretty much play MTGO only. However, I can imagine a few things would happen if it was.

First, if they weren't omnipresent already, Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots would become mandatory for big creatures. Same with Aura Shards and Austere Command. This could actually benefit you though if they're afraid to attack with everything they've got and you don't currently have an answer in hand. On that note, I've been tossing around the idea of Seal of Cleansing or even Aura of Silence if it doesn't make people hate me too much in order to deal with shards, but I don't see it quite enough yet to do that. But when I do, it's a problem if I don't have an Allay in hand.

Secondly, just as players have wised up to Zedruu the Greathearted and Phelddagrif, you would not necessarily be given the benefit of the doubt in the early game before you get some deterrents up. Even in mid or late game, you'd be a bigger target. For some reason, people assume that just because you haven't played anything that could even kill someone yet that you're less likely to? I mean, they probably don't actually think that, but their actions sometimes say that.

Finally, some of the cards that you win with such as Batwing Brume which aren't super common in EDH might lose some of their novelty for your opponents. Maybe. I never get tired of seeing 400 tokens walk into it anyway.

As far as the subtheme of punisher, I've always thought that drew way too much hate. No one has any problem going after the person hurting everyone. In fact, every game I've ever played against a punisher deck, everyone has always tried to get them off the table first unless they were playing Seizan, Perverter of Truth. I do think group slug decks have a place, but the end game is not it. If you're gonna do it, it's gotta be fast or else everyone will probably gang up on you. So if you're playing a deck which relies on making it to the end game (where players are in the danger zone of lethal direct damage), it seems counterintuitive to me to play group slug. Also, they'll attack you anyway eventually, so there's no need to force them to sooner than necessary.

Usually if the game goes on long enough, one of two things will happen. The first is that players will take big chunks off other players' life totals. That puts them in range of lethal direct damage. The other is that players will play ridiculous things which should also put them into the danger zone. All you have to do is survive to that point and it should eventually happen in most games as long as no one is playing life gain (in which case you'd need to break out Repay in Kind or Soul Conduit. If you remove the punisher cards and replace them with more defense or answers, it's amazing how much less people want to kill you. This will let you live later into the game where your direct damage can be more effective.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also added some of the above to the "How the Deck Wins" section.

You are right, my deck has three parts:

Accel. Wait a bit.
Punisher. Wait a bit.
Go to town.

In my experience, where I've played, not doing anything hints that you are up to something. Not having tons of stuff, makes you an easy target for those who aren't currently taking on the #1 player. In a 4 player game, the first and 4th players are the ones attacked the most.

3rd is the safest IMHO.

I'm in love. Will be building and posting my fake on this deck soon

Quote from TheEndIsNear

You are right, my deck has three parts:

Accel. Wait a bit.
Punisher. Wait a bit.
Go to town.

In my experience, where I've played, not doing anything hints that you are up to something. Not having tons of stuff, makes you an easy target for those who aren't currently taking on the #1 player. In a 4 player game, the first and 4th players are the ones attacked the most.

3rd is the safest IMHO.

As far as appearing to be a threat/not a threat, I agree that you definitely don't want to be enemy of the state. I don't think it's bad being the least threatening player as long as you're not the weakest and everyone else knows it.

Quote from KoolMaqe

I'm in love. Will be building and posting my fake on this deck soon

Awesome! Glad you like it!

Also, per cbrook824 and trancekat's recommendations, I've added Wild Ricochet and Increasing Vengeance and removed Grisly Spectacle and a Mountain. I really wasn't thinking of using Wild Ricochet on my own stuff for some reason. Either way, it should give the deck more firepower. I'm still experimenting with the mana curve, so I don't think one less land should hurt it.

I'm also thinking of replacing either Carnage Altar (not sure because it allows me to sac my own stuff and that can be good sometimes) or Tower of Fortunes (not sure because it is very useful late game) in favor of Solemn Simulacrum. Both of those cards don't get used as much as I'd like to see them, but when they do, it's usually very important.

Edit: Also, Sheldon has apparently built a somewhat similar deck which can be found here. I don't know whether to be happy I came up with almost the same idea as Sheldon or sad that someone else came up with almost the same idea as me. :/ A small paragraph about it was added to the "Other Commanders" section.

Grisly spectacle seemed bad anyways

And on that note, removed Tower of Fortunes and replaced it with Increasing Ambition. It was between that and Beseech the Queen, but I don't think five should be too much to pay for a tutor given that it comes with a built in backup plan. It'll let me search for a kill card with it early that I think I'll need and then use it again if I need other ones. Tower was just too expensive to play effectively most of the time.

Would playing Urborg/Coffers combo be too much in this deck? Some groups could see it as a "threat"

i specifically avoided coffurborg.. we dont really need huge mana and it makes you a big target in my group.

Nice deck! I've been wanting to build something in these colors, but never quite got it to work.. I play with the same group constantly, so this deck's approach wouldn't work in the long term, but it's got some great stuffs! The Runes are some nice tech.

Have you considered Sunforger? It wouldn't tutor all the turnaround cards, but it would get a lot of them.

@TastyBagel:
This deck doesnt' run a lot of creatures, so it may not be the best candidate to utilize Sunforger

@Rachmiel:
I was thinking on the M O of the deck - the 4 tenants, and one of them being do not destroy... Hallowed Burial is actually worse than Wrath of God. Aside from Exile All Creatures for example, Tuck All Creatures seems to be the one that garners the most groans whenever I've played that effect. What are your thoughts on cutting Hallowed Burial and replacing it with another Turn Around card, i.e. Insurrection?

Quote from Raver

Would playing Urborg/Coffers combo be too much in this deck? Some groups could see it as a "threat"

Like trancekat said, they'd probably think I was running something like Exsanguinate or Debt to the Deathless.

Quote from TastyBagel

Nice deck! I've been wanting to build something in these colors, but never quite got it to work.. I play with the same group constantly, so this deck's approach wouldn't work in the long term, but it's got some great stuffs! The Runes are some nice tech.

Have you considered Sunforger? It wouldn't tutor all the turnaround cards, but it would get a lot of them.

Thanks! Testing Sunforger out right now. It might be a fair replacement for Carnage Altar since both serve as a form of card advantage. Even though there aren't a lot of creatures, it does make Tariel an 8/7 so she can kill faster, and it allows instant access to Rakdos Charm, Backlash, Mirror Strike, Increasing Vengeance, and a few others. So it might be worth it, I'll have to check. It's only $0.05, so it's not too pricey also.

Quote from trancekat

@TastyBagel:
This deck doesnt' run a lot of creatures, so it may not be the best candidate to utilize Sunforger

@Rachmiel:
I was thinking on the M O of the deck - the 4 tenants, and one of them being do not destroy... Hallowed Burial is actually worse than Wrath of God. Aside from Exile All Creatures for example, Tuck All Creatures seems to be the one that garners the most groans whenever I've played that effect. What are your thoughts on cutting Hallowed Burial and replacing it with another Turn Around card, i.e. Insurrection?

Usually I'm not hated on too much for Hallowed Burial. If two out of the three opponents see me playing it as a good thing, then it's not too bad. It's definitely one of the more useful cards in the deck when dealing with nasty generals like Maelstrom Wanderer or Uril, but I'd be willing to replace it with something else. I'm honestly not a big fan of Insurrection because of two things. The first is the speed at which the victory happens. It takes an entire combat phase. The second is that people generally don't like being killed by their own creatures which is why there aren't any other "grab until eot, untap, gains haste" type effects.

Besides for Carnage Altar, I think that Ragged Veins and Hoard-Smelter Dragon could also be on the chopping block. I've only gotten to use Veins once effectively before, but it was pretty awesome when I did. The dragon is kind of just there as goodstuff and doesn't really fit. Not sure for what though. I haven't had great luck with lands lately, so maybe some more acceleration. I did have the opportunity recently to Wild Ricochet an Increasing Vengeance which would target an Acidic Soil but I passed it up since it would have resulted in a draw. Probably should have done it lol.

Quote from Rachmiel

I did have the opportunity recently to Wild Ricochet an Increasing Vengeance which would target an Acidic Soil but I passed it up since it would have resulted in a draw. Probably should have done it lol.

Hmm.. Personal Sanctuary" target="blank">Personal Sanctuary?

Maybe in the Gisela build that could work lol. Rune of Protection Red has worked for me in a similar situation before though to win me the game.

Re: Sunforger, the creature count is small, but still worth checking out imo. Having to draw into a specific turnaround card isn't for me. Also, with Mistveil Plains, it turns it into a mini card advantage engine.

Also, I remembered a great rattlesnake card from back in the day: False Prophet.

Quote from Rachmiel

Maybe in the Gisela build that could work lol. Rune of Protection Red has worked for me in a similar situation before though to win me the game.

I completely forgot about that! The game I played I cycled the rune I pulled since it didn't match the color of any opponent. Great call!

Quote from Rachmiel

Besides for Carnage Altar, I think that Ragged Veins and Hoard-Smelter Dragon could also be on the chopping block. I've only gotten to use Veins once effectively before, but it was pretty awesome when I did. The dragon is kind of just there as goodstuff and doesn't really fit. Not sure for what though. I haven't had great luck with lands lately, so maybe some more acceleration. I did have the opportunity recently to Wild Ricochet an Increasing Vengeance which would target an Acidic Soil but I passed it up since it would have resulted in a draw. Probably should have done it lol.

Looked into Return to dust?

Quote from TastyBagel

Re: Sunforger, the creature count is small, but still worth checking out imo. Having to draw into a specific turnaround card isn't for me. Also, with Mistveil Plains, it turns it into a mini card advantage engine.

Also, I remembered a great rattlesnake card from back in the day: False Prophet.

MistVeil Plains could be interesting, but I don't know if the advantage is too incremental. I've seen the prophet before, and he could definitely be good. The only thing I'm weary of with him is that it's possible for a crafty opponent to use it against me by killing it when it really benefits them, then going for the kill. Well, only because I've seen something like this happen before. Sunforger is still being tested, but I'm optimistic about it. It really would be a decent replacement for Carnage Altar probably just because both rely on there being a creature to use and both provide a type of card advantage.

Quote from trancekat

I completely forgot about that! The game I played I cycled the rune I pulled since it didn't match the color of any opponent. Great call!

Yeah, I realized that on accident one day. It can be a life saver.

Quote from Raver

Looked into Return to dust?

I tend to not like spot removal in this deck (besides for cards that "remove" players) because it already suffers from not having the card advantage Blue and Green provide. A version could be made that runs some stuff like Phyrexian Arena and other black card draw I guess. If there were a WR version of Aura Shards like

Aurora Shards 1WR
Enchantment
Whenever an enchantment(artifact?) enters the battlefield under your control, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment you don't control.

I would be super happy. So, I'm not really aware of a lot of good repeatable artifact/enchantment hate, but I'd like to run some if possible. Aura of Silence is the only thing that even comes close, but that's still a 1 for 1 trade.

Also, I think I will try doing some videos this weekend if I have time of some previous games with commentary. I'll probably add pictures back in to the thread when I do it (for the third time) now that I have access to the second post.

Finally, had a new deck idea (not headed by Vela the Night-Clad as mentioned in the last section of the first post as that idea is running into some problems). All I know is that it'll probably be at least partly blue. But it's a long ways off as it'll take a lot more work than this one did to construct, so I'll still be updating/tweaking/playing with Tariel plenty.

Quote from Raver

Looked into Return to dust?

What about cutting guiltfeeder? He's definitely too slow to have someone say "Thank You" and will probably eat removal before he gets to swing.

Guiltfeeder has helped win games, but never won any really cool victories himself, so I think it would be fair to cut him. If there isn't any repeatable artifact or enchantment removal, then Return to Dust might be alright. Alternatively, is there anything that could be used to recur or protect the defenses in the deck?

Also, sorry for not updating recently. I've had a lot of excuses been busy with stuff like

1. Friends coming in from out of town
2. Starting Game of Thrones
3. Working on another deck (2/3 of the nonland cards done roughly)
4. Being sad that the best recorded games on MTGO ended up being bugged so I need to do new ones.
5. Busier at work (this is the main culprit probably)

Still thinking about how to improve the deck though and game play videos are definitely still on the agenda.