INTRODUCTION:
Prossh is a great combo general, and offers the competitive player a rare opportunity to play a deck -- without using blue -- that can go toe-to-toe with the fastest and most competitive generals in the entire format.
Prossh offers vast power and one of the most difficult and important tasks one faces is to balance the deck's speed with it's resiliency. The deck must be fast enough to strike before your opponent's defenses have been established. However, a deck that sacrifices resiliency for speed (also known as a glass cannon) is weak against similarly competitive decks and competition.
WHY YOU MIGHT WANT TO PLAY A DECK LIKE THIS
If you love to combo off on turns 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5...you might be a Prossh player.
If your meta welcomes highly competitive builds that win through infinite combos...you might be a Prossh player.
If you love combo but want to play something other than blue...you might be a Prossh player.
If you have a slightly strange and confusing attraction to Kobolds...you might be a Prossh player.
IF YOU WANT TO WIN...you might be a Prossh player.
WHY YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO PLAY A DECK LIKE THIS:
This type of Prossh build is probably not for you if:
You play casually.
You enjoy games that end around turn 10 or 15.
Infinite combo strategies, Prossh itself, or broken stuff irks your playgroup.
You are looking for a deck that can win in three or more ways.
You enjoy a lot of variety in your games and gameplan.
You don't like playing combo.
You enjoy playing reactively as opposed to actively.
STRATEGERY: HOW THIS DECK WINS
The centerpiece of this deck's strategy for winning involves an infinite combo involving our general Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and a few very important cards that provide infinite red Kobolds of Kher Keep tokens, with 0 power and 1 toughness. With an arbitrarily large number of Kobolds on the battlefield, there are several cards in the deck that then empower you to deal infinite damage to all opponents, cause all opponents to lose infinite life, gain you infinite life, and even create an infinitely-large horde of 1/1 goblins to attack and overrun all opponents. Perhaps the greatest strength of this type of competitive Prossh list is the fact that there are several routes to this infinite combo. By including many avenues to the same goal, we increase the probability of being able to combo out early...and often.
HOW THIS DECK GENERATES INFINITE KOBOLDS OF KHER KEEP
"Hundreds of thousands of kobolds emerge from the savage lands of Kher, teeming in frantic devotion to the almighty Skyraider."
Assembling one of the following combos as fast as possible is the singular focus of this deck's strategy. The following are all possible combinations of cards that produce infinite Kobolds of Kher Keep with Prossh.
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Food Chain is the most powerful enabler in the deck, as it combos with Prossh alone. Here is how the Food Chain combo works:
1. Cast Food Chain.
2. Cast Prossh, Skyraider of Kher.
3. When you cast Prossh, a number of Kobolds of Kher Keepequal to the amount of mana spent to cast Prossh enter the battlefield under your control. If this is the first time you have cast Prossh in the game, this number is SIX Kobolds of Kher Keep.
4. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling Prossh. Food Chain adds mana to your pool equal to the CMC of the creature exiled, plus one. . Exiling Prossh adds 7 mana (of any one color to your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells (Prossh's CMC is always 6). Since this mana is special because it may only be used to cast creature spells, I will refer to it as "food chain mana."
5. Prossh returns to the Command Zone as a replacement effect of the exile.
6. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling a Kobolds of Kher Keep token. This will add one mana of any chosen color to your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells. The token has a CMC of zero, so Food Chain will add 0+1 mana to your pool.
7. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling the remaining five Kobolds of Kher Keep. You now have 11 food chain mana of varying colors (R, G, and B) in your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells. Lucky for you, Prossh is a creature spell.
8. Use 8 of the 11 mana you have in your pool to cast Prossh, Skyraider of Kher again. You now have 3 food chain mana floating in your pool.
9. When Prossh is cast, 8 Kobolds enter the battlefield, since we just spent 8 mana to cast Prossh.
10. Prossh may now be exiled again with Food Chain as well as the new Kobolds that entered the battlefield. Since the food chain mana being poured into our pool with each casting of Prossh will always be greater than the amount needed to re-cast Prossh a subsequent time, you may repeat this process as long as you wish, or until you are disrupted some way. The end result is an arbitrarily-large number of Kobolds of Kher Keep 0/1 tokens on the battlefield as well as an unlimited amount of food chain mana in your mana pool.
As you can see, Food Chain is an extremely valuable combo piece and is really the centerpiece of the deck. It is a two-card combo involving a general, not unlike Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Curiosity. As such, it is one of the most frequent targets for tutors in the deck, and keeping an opening hand containing Food Chain is more or less a foregone conclusion.
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Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar are two well-known combo pieces that fit into many decks. Together, they can accomplish the same goal as Food Chain, but actually create a more powerful effect. Here's how it works:
1. Cast Phyrexian Altar.
2. Cast Ashnod's Altar.
3. Cast Prossh.
4. Sacrifice 3 Kobolds to Phyrexian Altar, producing BRG.
5. Sacrifice Prossh and 2 Kobolds to Ashnod's Altar, producing 6.
6. Use the 8 floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
7. Sacrifice 3 Kobolds to Phyrexian Altar, producing BRG.
8. Sacrifice 4 Kobolds and Prossh to Ashnod's Altar, producing 10.
9. Use 10 of the floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
10. Repeat. The end result is infinite Kobolds of Kher Keep tokens. Because the altars are out, this means you now have infinite regular mana at your disposal.
If an opening hand includes one of the Altars, the other then becomes the primary tutor target in most situations.
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Mana Echoes is an extremely powerful card in the deck. It curves very well into Prossh, creating 36 colorless mana when Prossh's first merry band of Kobolds arrive. That's huge! This unique ability also provides us with all the colorless mana we need to re-cast Prossh, but we still need a way to send Prossh back to the command zone and a way to turn creatures into colored mana. That's where Phyrexian Altar comes in. Here's how it works:
1. Cast Phyrexian Altar.
2. Cast Mana Echoes.
3. Cast Prossh. Six kobolds enter the battlefield. Mana Echoes checks them and adds 36 (6*6) colorless mana to your pool.
4. Sacrifice 2 kobolds and Prossh to Phyrexian Altar.
5. Use 8 of the floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
6. Eight kobolds enter the battlefield, joining the 4 that were already present, for a total of 12. Mana Echoes checks them and adds 96 colorless mana to your pool.
7. Sacrifice Prossh and 2 kobolds to Phyrexian Altar.
8. Repeat this process as many times as you choose. You are left with infinite kobolds and infinite mana.
The reason why three "versions" of this central combo have been included is to increase the deck's resiliency against good competition and removal. Many cards can remove Food Chain on its first activation - this stops the combo, since it relies on casting Prossh at sorcery speed to advance itself. Examples of these cards are Return to Dust, Deglamer, Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, and other instant-speed enchantment hate. Many Prossh decks choose to rely entirely, or almost entirely, on Food Chain. I believe this is a dangerous gambit.
We can mitigate the danger of Food Chain being removed by holding it in our hand until we are ready to combo off and win. This allows us to avoid sorcery-speed removal. If Food Chain gets destroyed, it can be restored to your hand with Eternal Witness or Regrowth. If Food Chain is tucked with Deglamer or Unravel the Aether, it can be tutored for. Well, what happens if Food Chain gets hit with a Return to Dust? If it's the only combo enabler in your deck, you are, in a word, boned. Food Chain being exiled is a nightmare, but by embracing the path of "combo redundancy," we can still recover and win the game (even win the game quickly) after such a blow. This is why the Altars and Mana Echoes were included. Good players play removal, and everyone who has played against a Prossh deck is going to be on the lookout for Food Chain. Play smart, do your best to draw out your opponent's removal spells, and if one of your combo pieces is removed from play, immediately shift your focus to getting another one.
WHY CAN'T I HOLD ALL THESE KOBOLDS? FINISHERS AND GOING FOR THE WIN:
"We have more sprouts than they have hands."
-- Gamelen, Citanul elder
So we've got a lot of Kobolds out. A LOT. Unfortunately, no matter how many we have, they cannot win the game on their own because of their stats. They're 0/1. So we can't simply attack with our infinite creatures; it's going to take a little something extra. This is where our "finishers" come in, and the deck is packed with them. The more we include, the more options are available, which means that we are more likely to see one in our opening hand, more likely to draw into one, and more likely to be able to respond to our opponent's specific defenses. These "finisher" cards vary in their effect, and that's on purpose -- diversity equals options, equals resilience against removal and responsive plays that could stop us from winning. These finisher cards belong to specific "classes" based on their effects. Here they are broken up into those categories. In my opinion, some of these "finishers" are more optimal than others. They are listed here in their order of power and resilience, and therefore their desirability as a combo finisher.
You can probably think of numerous cards in Jund colors that can win us the game on the spot with infinite creatures at our disposal. It's true that there are many, many options, but these two creatures are the best options in my opinion, and that's why I have put them in "Class A." First I will explain how they win us the game, and why they are preferable to other options.
1. Create infinite kobold tokens using one of the methods explained above.
2. Sacrifice one of these kobolds to Prossh, Skyraider of Kher's activated ability, increasing Prossh's power by one.
3. Blood Artist or Falkenrath Noble's ability triggers. One opponent of your choice loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 any amount of times, killing all opponents and gaining you as much life as desired.
The reason why these two vampires are better than other finishers is simple: they are the most resilient to your opponents' answers. Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff can cause problems for other finishers (see below), but the vampires (and Prossh) each do their thing without any ETB triggers at all.
The vampires are also immune to instant-speed creature removal. Let's say that you have the infinite kobolds out, and you cast Blood Artist. Blood Artist resolves and an opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, targeting the Blood Artist. In response, you may sacrifice a kobold to Prossh's activated ability. Blood Artist then triggers. You can then pass priority. When priority comes back around to you, sacrifice another kobold, then repeat as many times as you choose. As the abilities on the stack resolve, all opponents will be good and dead by the time the creature-removing spell resolves and kills the vampire.
The vampires, like all of the finishers, are vulnerable to countermagic, but their immunity to Torbor Orb effects (like a flashed-in Hushwing Gryff) AND spot removal make them the best options for combo finishers. They are also creatures, which means that they can be cast with food chain mana. This means that many of them can be windmill-slammed immediately after Food Chain makes it's appearance.
These finishers are our next best option. Although their effects are all distinct -- Purphoros deals damage and Chancellor of the Forge makes 1/1 hasty goblins -- they have one important thing in common: they rely on creatures entering the battlefield to trigger their abilities. This means that Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff will prevent them from working. Prior to the printing of Hushwing Gryff, this was much less of a concern. After all, Torpor Orb is an artifact, must be played during an opponent's turn, and can thus we can play "around" it in a sense. The TorporGryff, however, has flash, meaning that it can be played in response to any of these "Class B" finishers and ruin our day. Hushwing Gryff is new card, but I believe that it will become an absolute staple. Being able to cast this card in response to so many common ETB threats in the format, such as Craterhoof Behemoth to name but one, makes it extremely powerful. Because I predict that almost every serious/competitive white deck will run this card, this gives the slight edge to the Vampires (see above) in terms of optimal finishers.
Purphoros, God of the Forge wins by dealing damage to our opponents as we cast and re-cast Prossh, flooding the battlefield with Kobolds of Kher Keep. The nice thing about Purphoros is that he is indestructible, although if we stack our triggers correctly (see the above section on the vampires), we can get around any spot removal. Purphoros does make a nice little four-drop outside of the context of the infinite kobolds combo. We can drop Purph the turn before we cast Prossh, dealing 14 damage to all opponents right off the bat. The advantage that Purphoros offers is the fact that, unlike the other two ETB finishers, Purphoros does not rely on the combat step to win.
Chancellor of the Forge rounds out the ETB finishers. With infinite 0/1 kobolds on the field, Chancellor comes out, making an equal number of 1/1 goblins with haste. We can then alpha strike the table with these goblins in one attack. Chancellor is expensive, but the deck never plans to hard-cast it; instead holding it until we have infinite mana or infinite food chain mana via assembly of the combo(s) illustrated above. The one advantage that Chancellor has over the other ETB finishers is its ability to put a goblin token onto the battlefield, for free, if you reveal it from your opening hand at the very start of the game. This can give us a big leg up early in terms of mana and speed (for more on how creatures are used to ramp in this deck, see the RAMP section below).
GOBLIN BOMBARDMENT. One of my favorite cards, and my favorite way to finish off a table. Not because it's the most reliable or easy way, mind you, but simply because I love the mental image of millions of kobolds being flung by catapults at my opponents, burying them in a World War Z-esque pile of dirty kobold bodies. Ahhhh. HUH? Oh, sorry. I drifted away there.
Goblin Bombardment gets around Orb and Gryff, which is a plus. However, it has a huge weakness - it is not a creature and thus cannot be cast with food chain mana. This means that you'll need 1R open after playing Food Chain. This mana crunch may be small, but it may make the difference between a turn 4 win and a turn 5 win depending on your mana situation and creatures on the field. The only real advantage over any of the other finishers is it's status as a separate and independent sacrifice outlet. This means that if our draws don't go as hoped and we find ourselves playing Prossh by himself (not as part of a combo), we can use Goblin Bombardment to get him back to the command zone for subsequent re-castings (and more kobold tokens). It's not much of an advantage, but it has come in handy plenty of times.
Goblin Bombardment's status as an enchantment makes it the least optimal finisher. It does have an advantage over the ETB finishers inasmuch as it doesn't fold to Orb or Gryff. However, the extra mana it adds to the minimum required to assemble the win puts it last. Still an amazing card, but just not quite as preferable as the other knock-out punchers.
Bitter Ordeal is great on its own as a Jester's Cap effect and is nigh-uncounterable as a finisher.
The following cards are in a special class of "finisher" because they don't themselves win the game, but they guarantee us access to a card that will, assuming they resolve of course.
The above cards can be cast with food chain mana. With infinite creatures, we can use Disciple of Bolas to sacrifice an infinitely-pumped Prossh, drawing up to our whole deck (just make sure to specify a finite number of creatures sacked to Prossh!). We can then cast any one of the above finishers to seal the win (and probably draw some other goodies like Autumn's Veil and Elvish Spirit Guide along the way).
Skullmulcher devours an arbitrary number of Kobolds, drawing us an arbitrary number of cards, like the Disciple.
Rune-Scarred Demon just cuts to the chase and fetches any specific finisher for the win.
Greater Good and Fecundity allow us to similarly draw the deck, but they are not creatures and thus cannot be cast with food chain mana.
PLAN B: OLD FASHIONED BEATS
"Welcome to perfection."
-- Sheoldred, Whispering One
Sometimes our plan to combo out in a blaze of kobold-swarm glory fails due to a quick and clever play by an opponent. Sometimes we fail to draw into our crucial combo pieces.
Commander damage is a very viable way to win with this deck. It is, for lack of a better term, our backup plan. By himself, Prossh can hit for 11 in the air by sacrificing his kobold followers before the attack. That's a two-turn clock - and a sacrifice outlet can get Prossh back to the command zone. Xenagos, God of Revels and Craterhoof Behemoth are wincons on their own in this deck.
THE REST OF THE DECK: CARD CHOICES EXPLAINED
To support the deck's strategy, we need ramp, tutors, removal, and maybe a few dirty tricks.
RAMP! WHY CREATURE RAMP IS KING
"The ceremony ended with a voice from the shadows, a voice with vast, ominous power."
-- Kifimbo, Shadow Guildmage
"All my spells smell like burnt hair lately."
-- Jaya Ballard, task mage
Mana acceleration, including type and amount, is a key consideration for any competitive deck and any combo deck. While default logic dictates that the best ramp generally comes in the form of spells like Cultivate and Skyshroud Claim, the best mana acceleration for this deck is in creature form.
Creatures can be sacrificed to the Altars and Food Chain. Unlike artifacts and spells that power lands out onto the battlefield, we can get more mana and more value out of creatures that can do the same thing. Wood Elves can bring out a dual land and produce 4 food chain mana or be sacrificed to Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Therefore, the general principle in choosing ramp in a deck like this is to use a creature to do a job before a spell or artifact. Of course, there are certain mana rocks that are just too good not to include (Sol Ring). Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal enable some very early combos. Despite the card disadvantage they create, their explosive potential is valuable.
TUTORS: HOW WE MAKE OPPONENTS SAD
Chainer dreams of ultimate knowledge.
Surprise! This combo deck uses tutors, and lots of them.
Tutors are one of the most important and expensive parts of my deck. This section is a work in progress, and there are some tutors that I plan to add in the future. In general, I believe that tutors that do not require you to reveal the fetched card are preferable to cards that don't. I also believe that tutors that deliver a card directly to your hand, and not the top of your library, are preferable, especially if those tutors are sorceries.
The transmute tutors are meant to get Food Chain or an Altar (Dimir Machinations) or Demonic Tutor (Shred Memory). Yes, tutoring for a tutor is kind of a douchey move, but we're playing combo here. Embrace the douche.
The more pleasant an illusion's garb, the more indecent its form laid bare.
An important part of playing multiplayer EDH competitively is reacting to, and hopefully disrupting, your opponents' game plans. This is perhaps the most subjective part of the decklist. What I mean by that is the answers, disruptors, and removers that your deck runs should be dependent on the types of decks you regularly encounter. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary, and that applies to this section of the deck list more than it does to the others.
Gods are popular in my meta, and I've always loved Deglamer's tuck effect. For two mana, this makes an artifact or enchantment go bye-bye at instant speed, and it can't even be Regrowthed or Sun Titan'd back onto the field later. Toxic Deluge takes care of indestructible creatures and is a great board wwipe.
I'd like to give special thanks to MCR, Rowan, and bighaben & Feverous, whose Prossh lists have given me a lot of great ideas and guidance in making mine. If you're interested in Prossh, check them out!
And that's my take on Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. The deck listed is how I have it in paper/cardboard form. I plan to keep updating this primer as the deck develops. There is still work needed in the mana base and the tutors. As always, the deck will improve as my bank account does!
- Reassembling Skeleton - Great card, especially with Attrition and other sac outlets. Hard to cut, but it was the card that made the most sense.
- Ulasht, the Hate Seed. Since this deck started out as a Ulasht deck, this was a hard cut to make sentimentally. I had a lot of good times with Ulasht and I am sad to see her go, but in playtesting I rarely had enough mana to cast her right after the Skyraider, and the dragon and kobolds often did not stick around long enough for me to untap mana and drop an 8/8 Ulasht for 4 the next turn. Sad face.
- Diabolic Intent. Since I decided to cut most other token producers besides the general, this card didn't make sense anymore. I rarely had a creature to sacrifice, and once I have cast Prossh, I rarely had the need to tutor afterwards.
- Karplusan Forest. I only really had this card in the deck because I love the ice age art. Since I'm focusing on basics (kind of), didn't make a lot of sense to leave this in.
- Phyrexian Tower. great sac outlet, but cut for the combined reasons as diabolic intent and karplusan.
+ Cultivate. I got a really nice promo foil and it helps me get to be able to cast prossh sooner. I like the card a lot even late game for its deck-thinning.
+ Mages' Contest. I love non-blue counterspells. I also think this card looks really really fun. I love the fact that it brings in psychology and another totally un-Magic game mechanic (bidding).
+ Scroll Rack. Makes the deck harder, better, faster, stronger. Helps me get combo pieces quicker.
+ Ancient Tomb. Early casting of Prossh is what allows me to apply early aggro pressure while setting up my mid-game play. Definitely should have been in from day one, just got my hands on a copy.
This deck passes on a lot of other token creation and relies on prossh to do that. Aside from more tutors, does anyone have any ideas about how to protect against tuck effects? Would cards that give prossh pro red or blue help? Sword of fire and ice would probably be good in the deck for that reason and others.
Also, I have included Mages' Contest and red elemental blast because I love off color counterspells and I think mages contest would be a blast. Haven't tried it yet though.
The only common tuck effect that protection effects is Condemn. Hinder, Spell Crumple and Hallowed Burial give you the finger.
If you haven't already I would recommend taking a look at MCRs Prossh list here. As well as reading the OP, I'd suggest also reading the subsequent discussion on card swap choices that were made. Your list seems like it's heading in that direction.
EDIT: I see you posted there, nvm
It's an incredibly tight list and he says that it can win consistently on turns 3-4. Because of that it's a tad glasscanonish but that can be adjusted to your meta and preferences. I see you've included redundancy for Food Chain which I think is smart.
Personally, I would recommend cutting non-creature spells for creature spells wherever possible, especially in your ramp section. That's because these creatures can then be sacced to Food Chain or Prossh to generate mana or one shot someone. Clearly you want to be casting Food Chain as early as possible and any ramp spells that cost 3 or 4 mana you are going to want to think twice about.
You should tailor the deck so that these early wins become more and more likely.
Additionally, I would lower your average cmc as much as possible so that cards like Ad Nauseam and Dark Confidant become viable.
Tainted Pact also works as a second copy of Demonic Tutor here at instant speed IF you can tailor your land base like MCR did (no lands with the same name)
I plan to include pact once I finish my land base. I just need two more fetches basically. What ramp should I cut? I'm thinking maybe losing thran dynamo and cultivate, replace with somber walls sage and llanowar elves maybe?
I'd also love to lower my curve and include Bob, but I'm not sure what substitutions to make in order to accomplish that.
So I decided that MCRs list (in the OP) is what a 1v1 Prossh list should look like. It's near perfect in a vacuum but since we don't have access to blue control (especially things like Force of Will and Pact of Negation) I think it's too weak to interruption in multiplayer. Multiplayer is anything but a vacuum. And someone is going to have a Return to Dust, Mindbreak Trap, or a Jester's Cap ready to stop you. I've never liked the idea of one card crippling my whole deck.
In multiplayer I think we are going to want something with a bit more lategame resiliency. On page 2 of MCRs thread, you'll see he posted another list that he admits could be "the next evolution for competitive Prossh for me." I feel he is moving in the right direction as far as multiplayer commander goes.
I'm going to post my list here for you to show you what I chose to do with Prossh. I more or less assimilated what I've liked about each Prossh list I've seen and attempted to mash it together into something cohesive. It's not perfect but I'm becoming more and more happy with it. I don't mind losing once in a while if I can get to do big splashy things occasionally (such as reanimate Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger on turn 2)
At face value it doesn't look competitive (compared to MCRs list), but what it lacks in early game wins (turn 3 wins are still totally possible though), it gains in a robust removal suite, blowout card draw, and alternate ways of winning that still synergize with Prossh and the rest of the deck to a satisfactory degree. It also contains considerably more ramp than most decks will ever be able to use (one of the perks of being a green deck).
And honestly I think going the more creature based route allows us to make the best use out of absurdly good cards like Chord of Calling and Natural Order. Reanimation also becomes a viable strategy.
I tend to agree with you about MCR's list - don't get me wrong, and no offense to MCR (that deck is what inspired me to take prossh to such a great competitive level), but I think that deck is probably the best goldfish Prossh deck, but with all the removal and counterspells I face in my meta, I need a deck that can roll with the punches a little better. Although he has a lot of dedicated blue hate in there, I'm more concerned with being able to still combo off if I get smacked down the first, or even the second time.
I think you are definitely right about using creature ramp. I'm definitely going to put some more in. You bring up an interesting point about Pod. The first question that springs to mind, though, is why pay three mana for pod when you can just spend three mana to play another mana guy? How many activations will you get out of pod in a game (on average), and how much extra ramp does that net you usually? I've never owned or played with a birthing pod before and I don't have any experience or first-hand knowledge of it.
I used to have natural order in here, but I cut it. Mostly because I sometimes found myself with it in my hand, but no green creatures on the field. Sure, prossh is green, but if I've cast prossh already, I'm either gunning to take people out with commander damage or win that turn, and natural order is 4 mana that I'd rather keep open to just cast a hard tutor or play a finisher. With more green mana guys and land getters, that problem is less of a concern though.
Yavimaya Dryad will go in, because she food chains for four and she gets any forest. With the plan being to cut the basic land count down to three, I think I will avoid basic land tutor creatures like sakura tribe elder and farhaven elf.
I didn't know about Disciple of Bolas, that will probably replace Fecundity, or perhaps I will keep Fecundity and run both.
So I decided that MCRs list (in the OP) is what a 1v1 Prossh list should look like. It's near perfect in a vacuum but since we don't have access to blue control (especially things like Force of Will and Pact of Negation) I think it's too weak to interruption in multiplayer. Multiplayer is anything but a vacuum. And someone is going to have a Return to Dust, Mindbreak Trap, or a Jester's Cap ready to stop you. I've never liked the idea of one card crippling my whole deck.
In multiplayer I think we are going to want something with a bit more lategame resiliency. On page 2 of MCRs thread, you'll see he posted another list that he admits could be "the next evolution for competitive Prossh for me." I feel he is moving in the right direction as far as multiplayer commander goes.
I'm going to post my list here for you to show you what I chose to do with Prossh. I more or less assimilated what I've liked about each Prossh list I've seen and attempted to mash it together into something cohesive. It's not perfect but I'm becoming more and more happy with it. I don't mind losing once in a while if I can get to do big splashy things occasionally (such as reanimate Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger on turn 2)
At face value it doesn't look competitive (compared to MCRs list), but what it lacks in early game wins (turn 3 wins are still totally possible though), it gains in a robust removal suite, blowout card draw, and alternate ways of winning that still synergize with Prossh and the rest of the deck to a satisfactory degree. It also contains considerably more ramp than most decks will ever be able to use (one of the perks of being a green deck).
And honestly I think going the more creature based route allows us to make the best use out of absurdly good cards like Chord of Calling and Natural Order. Reanimation also becomes a viable strategy.
Looking over your list, I have to say that I really like it. You have a lot of removal included that I previously cut, with great reluctance (attrition, deluge, shivan harvest, I also used to run Mind Slash).
Faithless Looting is an interesting choice. Are there any creatures that do something similar?
What do you think about Drumhunter? I am also considering Savage Summoning right now. Do you think it's worth a slot?
So here are the changes I'm planning to make in the near future:
cuts
- Krosan Grip for + Nature's Claim
Split second is amazing, but I'd like to reduce my curve some and Nature's claim costing 2 less mana makes it the right choice. I would like to run both, so if any space opens up later as the deck develops I'll look at putting the grip back in. F***in' tops.
- Cultivate for + Yavimaya Dryad
The basic land count is getting lower, and I want to increase the ramp I get from creatures as opposed to spells because creatures can be sacked for food chain mana or regular mana with the altars. the dryad nets me 4 Food Chain mana and gets duals and shocks; this is the better card for the deck.
- Darksteel Ingot for + Somberwald Sage
Somberwald Sage ramps us up quicker than the ingot. The indestructibility is not too relevant in my meta. Somberwald sage can potentially tap for 3 and then net 4 more with food chain out, that's pretty good.
- Lightning Greaves for + Disciple of Bolas
The greaves are nice and this is a hard cut to make, but I can draw a lot off of the disciple and it also serves as another quasi finisher like fecundity or skullmulcher, so I want to include the card for sure.
- Thran Dynamo for + Fyndhorn Elves
Dynamo is a great rock, but its too midrangey for what I want to do here.
- Ogre Battledriver for + Chord of Calling
I like the battledriver but putting a chord in makes the deck more versatile, and I have three other etb finishers in purphoros, goblin bushwhacker and chancellor of the forge. Battledriver is the weakest out of the etb finishers.
The land base also needs a (very expensive) tune-up, but this will be in the long term plans for the deck, as I cant invest too much more money in it right now. I plan to add:
that will bring my basics down to one of each, and allow tainted pact to do it's thing.
I've decided against pursuing an aggressive ad nauseam plan, as I'm struggling to get my curve lower and I don't want to cut Chancellor of the Forge or Rune-Scarred Demon, at least not right now. I do want to eventually slot in Dark Confidant, which will probably replace Drumhunter once I can get my hands on a bob.
I like the tutor suite I have now, although I may replace Increasing Ambition with Grim Tutor at some point if/when I get one. I like increasing ambition a lot, but I think I've only used the flashback on it once, and a card that does essentially the same thing for two less mana is the better way to go.
I am also intrigued by Treasonous Ogre. Getting him out on turn two seems really good. should I make room for this guy?
Looking again at the doomsday pile, I'm wondering if I should include a Priest of gix. it works better than lotus petal or the spirit guides in the doomsday pile because it nets four mana with food chain and pays for the infernal contract.
Faithless Looting is pretty unique for a red card since it offers so much control. I put it in every single red deck that I build. I think it's that good. There is no creature version really.
I think your removal suite isn't strong enough. Granted you might be aiming for a quicker game than I am, but I've found that board wipes are pretty invaluable in this format. In these colors we have some great options. Pernicious Deed is just a house. Toxic Deluge is efficient and selective. Decree of Pain is modular and can generate some insane draw.
Selective removal should be chosen very wisely and will be meta dependent. Some options follow:
Maelstrom Pulse should really be included. It's right up there with Beast Within and Chaos Warp and oftentimes better since it can get rid of multiple stuff at once (or opposing token hoards)
Hull Breach gives you a 2 for 1 in a flexible package.
I've strongly considered Abrupt Decay here but I went with Pulse instead.
I think Decimate could be playable. A selective 4 for 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Moving on, Increasing Ambition is just bad IMO. Creature tutors are where our strength really lies. In that vein, take a look at what I'm running. All of those cards are designed to get my key creatures into play, preferably without directly paying their mana costs. Natural Order should pull it's weight if you slot enough sufficient green creature ramp. Defense of the Heart is just plain broken since it can double as a creature board lock - Forbidden Orchard helps force it to pop.
Incidentally, I notice you aren't running Craterhoof. I think that's the root of where our decks differ the most. I assume you aren't running it because it doesn't automatically grant our creatures haste, so it either needs to come out a turn after our tokens or we need a global haste enabler. While that's a valid concern, I believe we can work around it and should. Why? Because ultimately, this is a creature based deck. If we focus too much on Food Chain, I think it will actually weaken the deck, making it too dependent on that single card. It's the glass canon approach and we've seen the end of that road in MCR's list.
Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Priest of Gix, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault and even Dark Ritual while allowing for earlier wins, don't grant us much resilience. They are part of the glass canon ideal which I think is more suited to 1v1 than multiplayer. I prefer cards that both give us immediate value, but also accumulate even more value over time.
Helm of Possession --> I think you really just want some straight up removal here. Toxic Deluge can solve the same problems that Helm does while offering much more bang for your buck.
Relic of Progenitus --> Bojuka Bog - I've never thought that relic justified a spot in any deck. Scavenging Ooze would be preferable if you really think you need this kind of effect, but I would think that Deathrite Shaman and Shred Memory should be enough. Bojuka Bog should be included regardless. I think it's good enough for any deck running black.
Phyrexian Revoker, Stranglehold - you seem to be rather paranoid of other people's decks. I never maindeck these kinds of stax effects because they don't help with our own gameplan. There are exceptions I suppose but I find that trumping other people's threats with our own is the way to go. The 'ole "the best defense is a good offense" philosophy. That's one reason why I chose to run all 3 praetors in these colors. If not answered, all of them can be game winning.
I think that your voltron subtheme is weak, mainly because while Prossh does have flying, he's got no other evasion or haste. Also, I always prefer to kill everyone at the table at once if I can. Partly because I feel bad taking out one player early and then forcing them to wait until the game is over but also because I find that it takes too much commitment. It's entirely likely that I'll get one shotted out next. If you think it works, then fine, but I've never liked it. Again, I think it comes down to whether you want to be playing the quick game with a fair chance of getting blown out, or whether you want to be in it for the long haul. I also think that this voltron strategy is also better in 1v1.
Additionally, I think that we should question any strategy that is totally dependent on our commander. Commanders get tucked, and sometimes it takes a while to get them back into play or the command zone. That's one reason why I chose to include Avenger of Zendikar as a secondary token producer.
One reason I love my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind primer deck so much is that it is indeed capable of turn 1 and 2 wins but if those attempts get blown out I can easily win a different way during the next few turns. The deck isn't totally dependent/committed to that early win and neither is it dependent on my commander in the slightest. It's very fast but also resilient. I know the best of both worlds is possible and it's what we should aim for.
I'm not sold on Deathrite Shaman, mostly because it can't do anything the turn it comes out. Also, how often are lands in the graveyard? Doesn't seem to happen a whole lot in my meta. Grave hate is good, but I'm not sure about this card.
Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid are interesting suggestions. I might slot them in for Nature's Lore and Spoils of Victory, although I would like to keep Spoils for the great fixing. I'll get those elves and test them.
I think I want to make space for Joraga Treespeaker since she can boost all our other mana elves for some midgame power.
Faithless Looting is pretty unique for a red card since it offers so much control. I put it in every single red deck that I build. I think it's that good. There is no creature version really.
Yeah, I think you're right. Drumhunter is probably going to get cut.
[quote] Savage Summoning isn't really my style. If you are aiming for that early win, then sure maybe it's worth it. Cavern of Souls would be my first choice since it doubles as a mana producer. Dosan the Falling Leaf or Vexing Shusher would be higher on my list.
Summoning Prossh at the end of an opponent's turn seems really good. I like the Dosan suggestion as well. Cavern of Souls is in my future plans for sure.
I think your removal suite isn't strong enough. Granted you might be aiming for a quicker game than I am, but I've found that board wipes are pretty invaluable in this format. In these colors we have some great options. Pernicious Deed is just a house. Toxic Deluge is efficient and selective. Decree of Pain is modular and can generate some insane draw.
Decree is pain is too expensive. Toxic Deluge is a great card, but costs a lot of mana to get rid of big stuff, more than Helm of Possession. I'm still considering this, but as eldrazi/colossus removal (that I don't have to play around myself), I like Helm of Possession.
Selective removal should be chosen very wisely and will be meta dependent. Some options follow:
Maelstrom Pulse should really be included. It's right up there with Beast Within and Chaos Warp and oftentimes better since it can get rid of multiple stuff at once (or opposing token hoards)
Hull Breach gives you a 2 for 1 in a flexible package.
I've strongly considered Abrupt Decay here but I went with Pulse instead.
I think Decimate could be playable. A selective 4 for 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Maelstrom Pulse is very good. Hull Breach is great, but I prefer instants to sorceries - I have better things to do on my turn.
Decimate is too expensive, and I don't like that it's a sorcery and cant be cast without 4 valid targets.
Moving on, Increasing Ambition is just bad IMO. Creature tutors are where our strength really lies. In that vein, take a look at what I'm running. All of those cards are designed to get my key creatures into play, preferably without directly paying their mana costs. Natural Order should pull it's weight if you slot enough sufficient green creature ramp. Defense of the Heart is just plain broken since it can double as a creature board lock - Forbidden Orchard helps force it to pop.
You're right about ambition. Chord of Calling will replace it when I pick it up today from the shop. Defense of the Heart is also a great suggestion. I plan to include this.
Incidentally, I notice you aren't running Craterhoof. I think that's the root of where our decks differ the most. I assume you aren't running it because it doesn't automatically grant our creatures haste, so it either needs to come out a turn after our tokens or we need a global haste enabler. While that's a valid concern, I believe we can work around it and should. Why? Because ultimately, this is a creature based deck. If we focus too much on Food Chain, I think it will actually weaken the deck, making it too dependent on that single card. It's the glass canon approach and we've seen the end of that road in MCR's list.
Craterhoof is great and all, but it still needs the general in order to do anything. I'm considering cutting my one shot cards (Psychotic Fury, Tainted Strike and Xenagod) and replacing them with craterhoof, however, craterhoof is going to be incredibly hard to cast without food chain or the altars/mana echoes, so I'm not sure how much I agree with the argument that Craterhoof offers a valid path to victory in the absence of the combo.
Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Priest of Gix, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault and even Dark Ritual while allowing for earlier wins, don't grant us much resilience. They are part of the glass canon ideal which I think is more suited to 1v1 than multiplayer. I prefer cards that both give us immediate value, but also accumulate even more value over time.
I just don't agree with this. There isn't a whole lot of creature ramp that scales well with a longer game, and we don't want longer games anyway. Casting the spirit guides is still a great play in this deck, as we can use any creature as a resource to fuel the deck's threats at any stage in the game.
I think you're right about Bitter Ordeal. Slaughter games cant be countered though - and it gets stuff in hands and graveyards. I like that Bitter ordeal doesn't require me to name a card, though, and it also lets me see my opponent's deck. That's valuable recon. You make a great point that ordeal also wins games while Slaughter games does not. It's going in.
Relic of Progenitus --> Bojuka Bog - I've never thought that relic justified a spot in any deck. Scavenging Ooze would be preferable if you really think you need this kind of effect, but I would think that Deathrite Shaman and Shred Memory should be enough. Bojuka Bog should be included regardless. I think it's good enough for any deck running black.
Relic is definitely a meta-call, but I might consider replacing with Bog, or something else entirely. I think I should be ok as long as I have one card in the deck, that I can tutor for, that deals with Necrotic Ooze grave combos.
Phyrexian Revoker, Stranglehold - you seem to be rather paranoid of other people's decks. I never maindeck these kinds of stax effects because they don't help with our own gameplan. There are exceptions I suppose but I find that trumping other people's threats with our own is the way to go. The 'ole "the best defense is a good offense" philosophy. That's one reason why I chose to run all 3 praetors in these colors. If not answered, all of them can be game winning.
Paranoid is probably a good word for it. Strangehold is simply too good to cut IMO. I understand the value of playing threats to trump my opponents - but I think this is an example of the 1v1 glass cannon approach that you and I are both wary of. Stranglehold prevents opponents from tutoring for cards that answer ours, and it curves nicely into prossh for a really good early game play. It also shuts down most traditional ramp. I'd rather play a stranglehold than a one-shot instant that kills one thing that an opponent tutors up. Revoker is a creature, and shuts down several generals that I see regularly like Azami. I like it in the deck.
I think that your voltron subtheme is weak, mainly because while Prossh does have flying, he's got no other evasion or haste. Also, I always prefer to kill everyone at the table at once if I can. Partly because I feel bad taking out one player early and then forcing them to wait until the game is over but also because I find that it takes too much commitment. It's entirely likely that I'll get one shotted out next. If you think it works, then fine, but I've never liked it. Again, I think it comes down to whether you want to be playing the quick game with a fair chance of getting blown out, or whether you want to be in it for the long haul. I also think that this voltron strategy is also better in 1v1.
Additionally, I think that we should question any strategy that is totally dependent on our commander. Commanders get tucked, and sometimes it takes a while to get them back into play or the command zone. That's one reason why I chose to include Avenger of Zendikar as a secondary token producer.
I tend to agree with you, and I am considering replacements for these three slots. I don't buy the argument that Craterhoof is a strictly better inclusion than these...Craterhoof also depends on Prossh to win. Also, tuck doesnt hurt this deck too much because the best answer to tuck is tutor, and we have plenty of that.
One reason I love my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind primer deck so much is that it is indeed capable of turn 1 and 2 wins but if those attempts get blown out I can easily win a different way during the next few turns. The deck isn't totally dependent/committed to that early win and neither is it dependent on my commander in the slightest. It's very fast but also resilient. I know the best of both worlds is possible and it's what we should aim for.
Resiliency is what I'm aiming for. While the deck is committed to the combo, I find that my combo redundancy guards very well against removal and disruption, and even if that plan fails entirely, commander damage is the most efficient way to eliminate players. I'm still looking at other cards to support a backup plan, but I'm not sold on craterhoof because of the high mana requirement (although 8 is not that hard to get up to), but it looks like the most logical choice. Avenger is good as well, but more often than not I think burning a tutor is a better way to respond to prossh getting tucked, rather than spend 7 mana to cast Avenger and leave prossh in the library.
I just don't agree with this. There isn't a whole lot of creature ramp that scales well with a longer game, and we don't want longer games anyway. Casting the spirit guides is still a great play in this deck, as we can use any creature as a resource to fuel the deck's threats at any stage in the game.
I think my comment warrants a bit more explanation. The main reason I don't like cards like Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal in this format is that they are card disadvantage. You are essentially 2 for 1'ing your self. If whatever spell you invest the mana in gets countered or removed you are pretty severely set back. Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask can probably stay since they are essentially free color fixing creatures and can be abused if you find a way to cheat them out or if you are running Kiki lol, and of course Food Chain loves them.
So basically, I think I'm going to suggest that your current non-creature ramp should be swapped for creatures for the reasons we discussed, especially Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal, and to a lesser degree the other stuff. There are plenty of solid creature ramp spells that you aren't running.
Earthcraft allows you to equip skullclamp for free essentially. It's just crazy. Too bad you don't have any basics to speak of though. I still really like it in my build since I can fetch those basics.
Deathrite Shaman shouldn't be depended on as ramp and I'd only run it if you and your opponents run a fair number of fetchlands. I think it's a lot better than Relic of Progenitus though.
Bloom Tender is good in a 3 color deck. Granted, she's only going to be tapping for green early, but it's nice to have something that's scalable.
It's worth noting that Bitter Ordeal is pseudo uncountable since it has storm. (You need a Mindbreak Trap to stop it)
Infernal Contract isn't good enough. The triple black is going to be hard to get most of the time and half your life isn't nothing in multiplayer, especially if you're in archenemy mode. If you want cheap draw I think Faithless Looting should be your go-to. Phyrexian Arena is also good. If you don't like either of these options, I would just side in another tutor so you can get another draw engine going.
Insidious Dreams is just a poor man's Vampiric Tutor - mostly because of it's high cost. I'm not going to discard my hand just have someone cast a Time Spiral on me. I really think something like Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, or Summoner's Pact would be better. You'll notice I'm running all of these because I think it's wise to take advantage of green's ability to cheat specific creatures into play, especially creatures with etb abilities. I've harped on this a lot, but I don't think you should just omit it.
Worth noting, Green Sun's Zenith acts as a one mana Rampant Growth if you get Dryad Arbor. It's a fairly awesome turn 1 play that I wouldn't skip out on. Zenith is just a solid scalable tutor that's useful at any point in the game.
As for Craterhoof, I just couldn't imagine playing without it (in fact the majority of my games are won with it, and not Food Chain). The ability to cheat it into play is just bonkers. If you are able to reliably give your tokens haste, it's just a solid win con. Craterhoof and the creature tutors go hand in hand.
I'm never unhappy to see Avenger in my hand. It gives me another route to win with Craterhoof and fuel for my sac outlets. It also has great synergy with Kiki-jiki and Birthing Pod.
I guess that's about all I've got to yammer about at the moment
I think my comment warrants a bit more explanation. The main reason I don't like cards like Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal in this format is that they are card disadvantage. You are essentially 2 for 1'ing your self. If whatever spell you invest the mana in gets countered or removed you are pretty severely set back. Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask can probably stay since they are essentially free color fixing creatures and can be abused if you find a way to cheat them out or if you are running Kiki lol, and of course Food Chain loves them.
While you are right about card disadvantage regarding these cards, they also offer opportunities for turn one wins that just wouldnt be possible without them in the deck.
Of course, this play is also possible with mana crypt, but I just cant afford one right now. I want to keep these cards because they are unique in that they can enable bonkers plays before anyone has a chance to do much of anything to stop me (although nature's claim is a hoser). If there was a black spirit guide, I would play it over the petal.
So basically, I think I'm going to suggest that your current non-creature ramp should be swapped for creatures for the reasons we discussed, especially Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal, and to a lesser degree the other stuff. There are plenty of solid creature ramp spells that you aren't running.
Earthcraft allows you to equip skullclamp for free essentially. It's just crazy. Too bad you don't have any basics to speak of though. I still really like it in my build since I can fetch those basics.
Deathrite Shaman shouldn't be depended on as ramp and I'd only run it if you and your opponents run a fair number of fetchlands. I think it's a lot better than Relic of Progenitus though.
Bloom Tender is good in a 3 color deck. Granted, she's only going to be tapping for green early, but it's nice to have something that's scalable.
It's worth noting that Bitter Ordeal is pseudo uncountable since it has storm. (You need a Mindbreak Trap to stop it)
I've updated my ramp section. I'm now running 6 basics (one snow basic and one regular for each color), so I added in Farhaven Elf. I've also added Fyndhorn Elder.
I don't know about Earthcraft. It's an absolute house and the interaction with skullclamp is obviously ridiculous, but 6 basics...I don't know. It's also not a creature.
I really want to make room for Bloom Tender - I will probably take out Spoils of Victory. A hard cut for me to make because I have a sentimental attachment to Spoils of Victory and I love everything to do with Three Kingdoms. Oh well, I'll put it in the Glissa landfall deck I'm brewing.
Bitter Ordeal will go in, and probably replace Goblin Bushwhacker for versatility's sake.
Deathrite Shaman is still something I'm looking at and considering, but I'm not sure if it will make it in.
Infernal Contract isn't good enough. The triple black is going to be hard to get most of the time and half your life isn't nothing in multiplayer, especially if you're in archenemy mode. If you want cheap draw I think Faithless Looting should be your go-to. Phyrexian Arena is also good. If you don't like either of these options, I would just side in another tutor so you can get another draw engine going.
Infernal Contract is what makes Doomsday a one-turn clock. If I cut it then I feel like I have to cut Doomsday. That's something I might do in the future, especially once I get my hands on some more expensive stuff like Grim Tutor. For now though, I think I'm going to keep it. It's more or less a dead card if I don't cast Doomsday during the game, though.
Insidious Dreams is just a poor man's Vampiric Tutor - mostly because of it's high cost. I'm not going to discard my hand just have someone cast a Time Spiral on me. I really think something like Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, or Summoner's Pact would be better. You'll notice I'm running all of these because I think it's wise to take advantage of green's ability to cheat specific creatures into play, especially creatures with etb abilities. I've harped on this a lot, but I don't think you should just omit it.
Worth noting, Green Sun's Zenith acts as a one mana Rampant Growth if you get Dryad Arbor. It's a fairly awesome turn 1 play that I wouldn't skip out on. Zenith is just a solid scalable tutor that's useful at any point in the game.
This sounds stupid but I've never considered that interaction with green sun's and dryad arbor - that's awesome. I've put in Green Sun's Zenith and Tooth and Nail. Insidious Dreams never really gets more than one card, and I think the card is still good even as a Vampiric Tutor that costs 4 and a card rather than 1 and 2 life. It's still in there for now, but may get cut in the future as I acquire more expensive tutors.
As for Craterhoof, I just couldn't imagine playing without it (in fact the majority of my games are won with it, and not Food Chain). The ability to cheat it into play is just bonkers. If you are able to reliably give your tokens haste, it's just a solid win con. Craterhoof and the creature tutors go hand in hand.
I've playtested Craterhoof in the last couple days, and wow you are right about it. Solid win con, great target for tooth and nail, and too good not to run.
I dont really think haste is a big problem. I did used to to Run Sarkhan Vol as a finisher, and it's a really solid card with just prossh. I wound up cutting Tainted Strike and Psychotic Fury. I'm keeping Xenagos, God of Revels because it puts my opponents on a clock immediately, gives haste, and is indestructible and reusable. It's also a great tutor target as a creature.
Your OP is gradually shaping up. You aiming for Primer status?
About Earthcraft:
I would only run Earthcraft if you think you can reliably fetch basics (and honestly I think it's good enough to build around). One pretty awesome play that happened the other night was using Earthcraft to generate like 12 mana with the creatures I had out in addition to like 6 original mana I had tapped my lands for. I put all of that mana into Kessig Wolf Run targeting Prossh of course. Prossh then proceeded to eat all the tokens and I hit for like 31+ trampling damage. That kind of play can happen on turn 7 barring any kind of ramp or haste enablers. I guess when used in that way it acts as a 2 mana Xenagos, God of Revels.
Earthcraft is basically my substitute for Gaea's Cradle and I've built around it. If I had a cradle, I think I'd cut Earthcraft and just make sure I can get cradle into play reliably with a Crop Rotation or something.
Another cool thing about Earthcraft is that it grants all of my mana tapping elves pseudo haste since they can tap for mana the turn they come out.
Besides Squirrel Nest (which I'm not running because it sucks by itself and I'm not going to tutor for it) Earthcraft also makes infinite mana with Aggravated Assault which I'm strongly considering trying out. These combos make Earthcraft a serious threat and most people will try to remove it. Running cheap permanents that demand removal is always a good plan.
About Infernal Contract and your Doomsday package:
I try very hard not to run cards that aren't good by themselves and preferably the majority of cards you run should be good both early and late game. Green Sun's Zenith is a great example of a card that is both useful anytime and perfectly usable on its own since it can be cast turn 1 to get Dryad Arbor and later ends the game with Craterhoof Behemoth.
Infernal Contract only wants to be cast in conjunction with your Doomsday plan. It's a very bad topdeck early in the game since they chance of having BBB can't be relied upon. Also, losing half your life on turn 3 isn't ideal either.
I think the risks involved with Doomsday don't justify the reward for 3 reasons:
1.) What happens if Infernal Contract or Food Chain are exiled or in your graveyard when you draw into Doomsday? Without Contract you are going to have to draw into your combos over the course of a few turns and at 20 or less life you are going to be killed by the table in a competitive meta. Without Food Chain, you are going to need one of your replacement combos which require 3 additional cards next to Prossh instead of just 2.
2.) The second major problem is that that you have to pass the turn in most circumstances. With 3 other players at the table it's very very likely that someone is going to find a way to kill you before your next turn. You're at 20 or less life. You only have 5 cards in your library. Wheel of Fortune will knock you out of the game. And each player only has to deal 7 damage to you to go lethal.
3.) The last issue is that anyone with instant speed removal or disruption WILL leave mana open to stop you. My Cyclonic Rift laughs at your Autumn's Veil (assuming it even resolves in the first place which is unlikely). In a competitive meta, the chances of you getting blown out here are fairly high. Your Autumn's Veil isn't going to stop a Krosan Grip or a Counterbalance either. There are a lot of ways to get around it.
About Insidious Dreams:
I actually prefer Insidious Dreams to Doomsday. The card disadvantage is pretty incredible though and combined with its 4 cmc, makes it less than competitive I think. We aren't Damia, Sage of Stone where this would really shine. The cards that makes this good are cards like Living Death (or other mass reanimation) and Wheel of Fortune (or something like Necropotence or Greater Good) but they can't be relied upon to make this work. Like you said, you are pretty much only ever going to be getting 1 or 2 cards with this, and I can't see myself paying 4 mana for that. Topdecking tutors are less than ideal since they leave you open to shuffling effects.
I think a creature tutor is going to serve you better especially something like Defense of the Heart or Natural Order which cheats them straight onto the battlefield bypassing your hand and mana cost completely. 2 fine examples of why green is almost as broken as blue. Since you are running Craterhoof being able to get it when you need to win is paramount. Birthing Pod is a cheaper alternative to these two though and I'd suggest giving it a run. The ability to sac Prossh (who actually wants to be sacced) and get Chancellor of the Forge is pretty bonkers.
Heh, worth noting Natural Order works amazingly with the Green Sun's Zenith/Dryad Arbor trick. You can get a fatty out on turn 3 with only those 3 cards (and 3 land drops of course). Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger would probably be the first pick in my deck in that situation since it's too early for Avenger or Craterhoof. It shuts down our opponents and doubles our own mana. Unless dealt with it's going to propel us to a win pretty quick since next turn you'll be casting Prossh and hopefully getting a draw engine going or even a turn 4 Food Chain win.
Treasonous Ogre:
I noticed that you added Treasonous Ogre. Let me know how it plays for you. Creature ramp is always good but 4 is kind of a lot for a deck that's trying to win early. The 3 life also adds up and guarantees a easy loss if you get Mindslavered. I think in most cases I would rather have an Oracle of Mul Daya or Skyshroud Claim for 4 mana. The exception would be if I was going the combo route and trying to win with something like Transcendence or Repay in Kind.
It's hard to read through everything you and Rowan have posted but I did notice that both of you were concerned about MCR's list being a little fragile for a multiplayer environment (which I've always thought as well).
It's hard to read through everything you and Rowan have posted but I did notice that both of you were concerned about MCR's list being a little fragile for a multiplayer environment (which I've always thought as well).
They can be houses for me but I purposely play a less busted, more casual deck partly focused around being a dick to blue players.
They were both in earlier incarnations of the deck, but I cut them. Although I do see a lot of blue when I'm playing this deck, I don't want to worry about having completely dead draws in the games where I dont face it. Anti-blue decks are hilarious, though. Carpet of Flowers, boil, curse of marit lage, etc. all make me smile. Im thinking about making a deck full of those color-hosing cards.
They were both in earlier incarnations of the deck, but I cut them. Although I do see a lot of blue when I'm playing this deck, I don't want to worry about having completely dead draws in the games where I dont face it. Anti-blue decks are hilarious, though. Carpet of Flowers, boil, curse of marit lage, etc. all make me smile. Im thinking about making a deck full of those color-hosing cards.
Yeah, that is basically the premise behind my Prossh. I still need Carpet, Choke and a few other cards.
They were both in earlier incarnations of the deck, but I cut them. Although I do see a lot of blue when I'm playing this deck, I don't want to worry about having completely dead draws in the games where I dont face it. Anti-blue decks are hilarious, though. Carpet of Flowers, boil, curse of marit lage, etc. all make me smile. Im thinking about making a deck full of those color-hosing cards.
Yeah, that is basically the premise behind my Prossh. I still need Carpet, Choke and a few other cards.
updated the decklist. the big change is the removal of Doomsday and Infernal Contract. I just got so damn sick of drawing infernal contract in my opening hand. Decided to cut it for fierce empath, basically. not sure about empath yet...the deck only has 3 targets for it, but if ive drawn those three targets before the empath, im probably winning anyway so whatevs.
I really enjoy what you've done with your version of this deck, it looks like it plays very closely to my list. The only difference is that mine doesn't run alters or vampires yet, but I'm definitely considering trying them out. Also, I prefer running a more "permanent" ramp package such as Cultivate etc, but you already explained why you opt against that in your deck explanation. Feel free to take a look at my list and give me any feedback, it's not as "all in on combo" as yours is, but still plays similarly. Your list has definitely given me some ideas though that I'm interested in trying.
1 Food Chain
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Mana Echoes
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Skullmulcher
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Fecundity
1 Greater Good
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Beastmaster Ascension
Tutors/Other Draw
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Tainted Pact
1 Shred Memory
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Chord of Calling
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fierce Empath
1 Sylvan Library
1 Skullclamp
Fatties
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Stranglehold
1 Chaos Warp
1 Deglamer
1 Krosan Grip
1 Beast Within
1 Nature's Claim
1 Toxic Deluge
Recursion
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regrowth
Ramp
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Quirion Elves
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Bloom Tender
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Priest of Gix
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Chromatic Lantern
Lands
1 Kher Keep
1 Ancient Tomb
1 High Market
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Command Tower
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Savage Lands
1 City of Brass
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Khalni Garden
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Peat Bog
1 Sandstone Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Swamp
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Forest
1 Snow-covered Forest
1 Mountain
1 Snow-covered Mountain
INTRODUCTION:
Prossh is a great combo general, and offers the competitive player a rare opportunity to play a deck -- without using blue -- that can go toe-to-toe with the fastest and most competitive generals in the entire format.
Prossh offers vast power and one of the most difficult and important tasks one faces is to balance the deck's speed with it's resiliency. The deck must be fast enough to strike before your opponent's defenses have been established. However, a deck that sacrifices resiliency for speed (also known as a glass cannon) is weak against similarly competitive decks and competition.
WHY YOU MIGHT WANT TO PLAY A DECK LIKE THIS
If you love to combo off on turns 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5...you might be a Prossh player.
If your meta welcomes highly competitive builds that win through infinite combos...you might be a Prossh player.
If you love combo but want to play something other than blue...you might be a Prossh player.
If you have a slightly strange and confusing attraction to Kobolds...you might be a Prossh player.
IF YOU WANT TO WIN...you might be a Prossh player.
WHY YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO PLAY A DECK LIKE THIS:
This type of Prossh build is probably not for you if:
You play casually.
You enjoy games that end around turn 10 or 15.
Infinite combo strategies, Prossh itself, or broken stuff irks your playgroup.
You are looking for a deck that can win in three or more ways.
You enjoy a lot of variety in your games and gameplan.
You don't like playing combo.
You enjoy playing reactively as opposed to actively.
The centerpiece of this deck's strategy for winning involves an infinite combo involving our general Prossh, Skyraider of Kher and a few very important cards that provide infinite red Kobolds of Kher Keep tokens, with 0 power and 1 toughness. With an arbitrarily large number of Kobolds on the battlefield, there are several cards in the deck that then empower you to deal infinite damage to all opponents, cause all opponents to lose infinite life, gain you infinite life, and even create an infinitely-large horde of 1/1 goblins to attack and overrun all opponents. Perhaps the greatest strength of this type of competitive Prossh list is the fact that there are several routes to this infinite combo. By including many avenues to the same goal, we increase the probability of being able to combo out early...and often.
Assembling one of the following combos as fast as possible is the singular focus of this deck's strategy. The following are all possible combinations of cards that produce infinite Kobolds of Kher Keep with Prossh.
Food Chain is the most powerful enabler in the deck, as it combos with Prossh alone. Here is how the Food Chain combo works:
1. Cast Food Chain.
2. Cast Prossh, Skyraider of Kher.
3. When you cast Prossh, a number of Kobolds of Kher Keep equal to the amount of mana spent to cast Prossh enter the battlefield under your control. If this is the first time you have cast Prossh in the game, this number is SIX Kobolds of Kher Keep.
4. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling Prossh. Food Chain adds mana to your pool equal to the CMC of the creature exiled, plus one. . Exiling Prossh adds 7 mana (of any one color to your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells (Prossh's CMC is always 6). Since this mana is special because it may only be used to cast creature spells, I will refer to it as "food chain mana."
5. Prossh returns to the Command Zone as a replacement effect of the exile.
6. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling a Kobolds of Kher Keep token. This will add one mana of any chosen color to your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells. The token has a CMC of zero, so Food Chain will add 0+1 mana to your pool.
7. Activate Food Chain's ability, exiling the remaining five Kobolds of Kher Keep. You now have 11 food chain mana of varying colors (R, G, and B) in your mana pool, with which you may only cast creature spells. Lucky for you, Prossh is a creature spell.
8. Use 8 of the 11 mana you have in your pool to cast Prossh, Skyraider of Kher again. You now have 3 food chain mana floating in your pool.
9. When Prossh is cast, 8 Kobolds enter the battlefield, since we just spent 8 mana to cast Prossh.
10. Prossh may now be exiled again with Food Chain as well as the new Kobolds that entered the battlefield. Since the food chain mana being poured into our pool with each casting of Prossh will always be greater than the amount needed to re-cast Prossh a subsequent time, you may repeat this process as long as you wish, or until you are disrupted some way. The end result is an arbitrarily-large number of Kobolds of Kher Keep 0/1 tokens on the battlefield as well as an unlimited amount of food chain mana in your mana pool.
As you can see, Food Chain is an extremely valuable combo piece and is really the centerpiece of the deck. It is a two-card combo involving a general, not unlike Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Curiosity. As such, it is one of the most frequent targets for tutors in the deck, and keeping an opening hand containing Food Chain is more or less a foregone conclusion.
++
Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar are two well-known combo pieces that fit into many decks. Together, they can accomplish the same goal as Food Chain, but actually create a more powerful effect. Here's how it works:
1. Cast Phyrexian Altar.
2. Cast Ashnod's Altar.
3. Cast Prossh.
4. Sacrifice 3 Kobolds to Phyrexian Altar, producing BRG.
5. Sacrifice Prossh and 2 Kobolds to Ashnod's Altar, producing 6.
6. Use the 8 floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
7. Sacrifice 3 Kobolds to Phyrexian Altar, producing BRG.
8. Sacrifice 4 Kobolds and Prossh to Ashnod's Altar, producing 10.
9. Use 10 of the floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
10. Repeat. The end result is infinite Kobolds of Kher Keep tokens. Because the altars are out, this means you now have infinite regular mana at your disposal.
If an opening hand includes one of the Altars, the other then becomes the primary tutor target in most situations.
++
Mana Echoes is an extremely powerful card in the deck. It curves very well into Prossh, creating 36 colorless mana when Prossh's first merry band of Kobolds arrive. That's huge! This unique ability also provides us with all the colorless mana we need to re-cast Prossh, but we still need a way to send Prossh back to the command zone and a way to turn creatures into colored mana. That's where Phyrexian Altar comes in. Here's how it works:
1. Cast Phyrexian Altar.
2. Cast Mana Echoes.
3. Cast Prossh. Six kobolds enter the battlefield. Mana Echoes checks them and adds 36 (6*6) colorless mana to your pool.
4. Sacrifice 2 kobolds and Prossh to Phyrexian Altar.
5. Use 8 of the floating mana to re-cast Prossh.
6. Eight kobolds enter the battlefield, joining the 4 that were already present, for a total of 12. Mana Echoes checks them and adds 96 colorless mana to your pool.
7. Sacrifice Prossh and 2 kobolds to Phyrexian Altar.
8. Repeat this process as many times as you choose. You are left with infinite kobolds and infinite mana.
The reason why three "versions" of this central combo have been included is to increase the deck's resiliency against good competition and removal. Many cards can remove Food Chain on its first activation - this stops the combo, since it relies on casting Prossh at sorcery speed to advance itself. Examples of these cards are Return to Dust, Deglamer, Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, and other instant-speed enchantment hate. Many Prossh decks choose to rely entirely, or almost entirely, on Food Chain. I believe this is a dangerous gambit.
We can mitigate the danger of Food Chain being removed by holding it in our hand until we are ready to combo off and win. This allows us to avoid sorcery-speed removal. If Food Chain gets destroyed, it can be restored to your hand with Eternal Witness or Regrowth. If Food Chain is tucked with Deglamer or Unravel the Aether, it can be tutored for. Well, what happens if Food Chain gets hit with a Return to Dust? If it's the only combo enabler in your deck, you are, in a word, boned. Food Chain being exiled is a nightmare, but by embracing the path of "combo redundancy," we can still recover and win the game (even win the game quickly) after such a blow. This is why the Altars and Mana Echoes were included. Good players play removal, and everyone who has played against a Prossh deck is going to be on the lookout for Food Chain. Play smart, do your best to draw out your opponent's removal spells, and if one of your combo pieces is removed from play, immediately shift your focus to getting another one.
So we've got a lot of Kobolds out. A LOT. Unfortunately, no matter how many we have, they cannot win the game on their own because of their stats. They're 0/1. So we can't simply attack with our infinite creatures; it's going to take a little something extra. This is where our "finishers" come in, and the deck is packed with them. The more we include, the more options are available, which means that we are more likely to see one in our opening hand, more likely to draw into one, and more likely to be able to respond to our opponent's specific defenses. These "finisher" cards vary in their effect, and that's on purpose -- diversity equals options, equals resilience against removal and responsive plays that could stop us from winning. These finisher cards belong to specific "classes" based on their effects. Here they are broken up into those categories. In my opinion, some of these "finishers" are more optimal than others. They are listed here in their order of power and resilience, and therefore their desirability as a combo finisher.
You can probably think of numerous cards in Jund colors that can win us the game on the spot with infinite creatures at our disposal. It's true that there are many, many options, but these two creatures are the best options in my opinion, and that's why I have put them in "Class A." First I will explain how they win us the game, and why they are preferable to other options.
1. Create infinite kobold tokens using one of the methods explained above.
2. Sacrifice one of these kobolds to Prossh, Skyraider of Kher's activated ability, increasing Prossh's power by one.
3. Blood Artist or Falkenrath Noble's ability triggers. One opponent of your choice loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 any amount of times, killing all opponents and gaining you as much life as desired.
The reason why these two vampires are better than other finishers is simple: they are the most resilient to your opponents' answers. Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff can cause problems for other finishers (see below), but the vampires (and Prossh) each do their thing without any ETB triggers at all.
The vampires are also immune to instant-speed creature removal. Let's say that you have the infinite kobolds out, and you cast Blood Artist. Blood Artist resolves and an opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, targeting the Blood Artist. In response, you may sacrifice a kobold to Prossh's activated ability. Blood Artist then triggers. You can then pass priority. When priority comes back around to you, sacrifice another kobold, then repeat as many times as you choose. As the abilities on the stack resolve, all opponents will be good and dead by the time the creature-removing spell resolves and kills the vampire.
The vampires, like all of the finishers, are vulnerable to countermagic, but their immunity to Torbor Orb effects (like a flashed-in Hushwing Gryff) AND spot removal make them the best options for combo finishers. They are also creatures, which means that they can be cast with food chain mana. This means that many of them can be windmill-slammed immediately after Food Chain makes it's appearance.
These finishers are our next best option. Although their effects are all distinct -- Purphoros deals damage and Chancellor of the Forge makes 1/1 hasty goblins -- they have one important thing in common: they rely on creatures entering the battlefield to trigger their abilities. This means that Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff will prevent them from working. Prior to the printing of Hushwing Gryff, this was much less of a concern. After all, Torpor Orb is an artifact, must be played during an opponent's turn, and can thus we can play "around" it in a sense. The TorporGryff, however, has flash, meaning that it can be played in response to any of these "Class B" finishers and ruin our day. Hushwing Gryff is new card, but I believe that it will become an absolute staple. Being able to cast this card in response to so many common ETB threats in the format, such as Craterhoof Behemoth to name but one, makes it extremely powerful. Because I predict that almost every serious/competitive white deck will run this card, this gives the slight edge to the Vampires (see above) in terms of optimal finishers.
Purphoros, God of the Forge wins by dealing damage to our opponents as we cast and re-cast Prossh, flooding the battlefield with Kobolds of Kher Keep. The nice thing about Purphoros is that he is indestructible, although if we stack our triggers correctly (see the above section on the vampires), we can get around any spot removal. Purphoros does make a nice little four-drop outside of the context of the infinite kobolds combo. We can drop Purph the turn before we cast Prossh, dealing 14 damage to all opponents right off the bat. The advantage that Purphoros offers is the fact that, unlike the other two ETB finishers, Purphoros does not rely on the combat step to win.
Chancellor of the Forge rounds out the ETB finishers. With infinite 0/1 kobolds on the field, Chancellor comes out, making an equal number of 1/1 goblins with haste. We can then alpha strike the table with these goblins in one attack. Chancellor is expensive, but the deck never plans to hard-cast it; instead holding it until we have infinite mana or infinite food chain mana via assembly of the combo(s) illustrated above. The one advantage that Chancellor has over the other ETB finishers is its ability to put a goblin token onto the battlefield, for free, if you reveal it from your opening hand at the very start of the game. This can give us a big leg up early in terms of mana and speed (for more on how creatures are used to ramp in this deck, see the RAMP section below).
GOBLIN BOMBARDMENT. One of my favorite cards, and my favorite way to finish off a table. Not because it's the most reliable or easy way, mind you, but simply because I love the mental image of millions of kobolds being flung by catapults at my opponents, burying them in a World War Z-esque pile of dirty kobold bodies. Ahhhh. HUH? Oh, sorry. I drifted away there.
Goblin Bombardment gets around Orb and Gryff, which is a plus. However, it has a huge weakness - it is not a creature and thus cannot be cast with food chain mana. This means that you'll need 1R open after playing Food Chain. This mana crunch may be small, but it may make the difference between a turn 4 win and a turn 5 win depending on your mana situation and creatures on the field. The only real advantage over any of the other finishers is it's status as a separate and independent sacrifice outlet. This means that if our draws don't go as hoped and we find ourselves playing Prossh by himself (not as part of a combo), we can use Goblin Bombardment to get him back to the command zone for subsequent re-castings (and more kobold tokens). It's not much of an advantage, but it has come in handy plenty of times.
Goblin Bombardment's status as an enchantment makes it the least optimal finisher. It does have an advantage over the ETB finishers inasmuch as it doesn't fold to Orb or Gryff. However, the extra mana it adds to the minimum required to assemble the win puts it last. Still an amazing card, but just not quite as preferable as the other knock-out punchers.
Bitter Ordeal is great on its own as a Jester's Cap effect and is nigh-uncounterable as a finisher.
The following cards are in a special class of "finisher" because they don't themselves win the game, but they guarantee us access to a card that will, assuming they resolve of course.
The above cards can be cast with food chain mana. With infinite creatures, we can use Disciple of Bolas to sacrifice an infinitely-pumped Prossh, drawing up to our whole deck (just make sure to specify a finite number of creatures sacked to Prossh!). We can then cast any one of the above finishers to seal the win (and probably draw some other goodies like Autumn's Veil and Elvish Spirit Guide along the way).
Skullmulcher devours an arbitrary number of Kobolds, drawing us an arbitrary number of cards, like the Disciple.
Rune-Scarred Demon just cuts to the chase and fetches any specific finisher for the win.
Greater Good and Fecundity allow us to similarly draw the deck, but they are not creatures and thus cannot be cast with food chain mana.
Sometimes our plan to combo out in a blaze of kobold-swarm glory fails due to a quick and clever play by an opponent. Sometimes we fail to draw into our crucial combo pieces.
Commander damage is a very viable way to win with this deck. It is, for lack of a better term, our backup plan. By himself, Prossh can hit for 11 in the air by sacrificing his kobold followers before the attack. That's a two-turn clock - and a sacrifice outlet can get Prossh back to the command zone. Xenagos, God of Revels and Craterhoof Behemoth are wincons on their own in this deck.
To support the deck's strategy, we need ramp, tutors, removal, and maybe a few dirty tricks.
Mana acceleration, including type and amount, is a key consideration for any competitive deck and any combo deck. While default logic dictates that the best ramp generally comes in the form of spells like Cultivate and Skyshroud Claim, the best mana acceleration for this deck is in creature form.
Creatures can be sacrificed to the Altars and Food Chain. Unlike artifacts and spells that power lands out onto the battlefield, we can get more mana and more value out of creatures that can do the same thing. Wood Elves can bring out a dual land and produce 4 food chain mana or be sacrificed to Phyrexian Altar and Ashnod's Altar. Therefore, the general principle in choosing ramp in a deck like this is to use a creature to do a job before a spell or artifact. Of course, there are certain mana rocks that are just too good not to include (Sol Ring). Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal enable some very early combos. Despite the card disadvantage they create, their explosive potential is valuable.
Surprise! This combo deck uses tutors, and lots of them.
Tutors are one of the most important and expensive parts of my deck. This section is a work in progress, and there are some tutors that I plan to add in the future. In general, I believe that tutors that do not require you to reveal the fetched card are preferable to cards that don't. I also believe that tutors that deliver a card directly to your hand, and not the top of your library, are preferable, especially if those tutors are sorceries.
The transmute tutors are meant to get Food Chain or an Altar (Dimir Machinations) or Demonic Tutor (Shred Memory). Yes, tutoring for a tutor is kind of a douchey move, but we're playing combo here. Embrace the douche.
Shred Memory is also an important answer in my meta, as it disrupts Hermit Druid/The Mimeoplasm/Necrotic Ooze combos. Speaking of disruption...
An important part of playing multiplayer EDH competitively is reacting to, and hopefully disrupting, your opponents' game plans. This is perhaps the most subjective part of the decklist. What I mean by that is the answers, disruptors, and removers that your deck runs should be dependent on the types of decks you regularly encounter. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary, and that applies to this section of the deck list more than it does to the others.
Gods are popular in my meta, and I've always loved Deglamer's tuck effect. For two mana, this makes an artifact or enchantment go bye-bye at instant speed, and it can't even be Regrowthed or Sun Titan'd back onto the field later. Toxic Deluge takes care of indestructible creatures and is a great board wwipe.
1. Swamp
2. Dark Ritual
3. Priest of Gix
4. Exile Simian Spirit Guide
5. Exile Elvish Spirit Guide (BBBRG in pool)
6. Food Chain (BR floating)
7. Exile Priest of Gix for green (GGGGBR floating)
8. Prossh
9. Blood Artist.
I'd like to give special thanks to MCR, Rowan, and bighaben & Feverous, whose Prossh lists have given me a lot of great ideas and guidance in making mine. If you're interested in Prossh, check them out!
And that's my take on Prossh, Skyraider of Kher. The deck listed is how I have it in paper/cardboard form. I plan to keep updating this primer as the deck develops. There is still work needed in the mana base and the tutors. As always, the deck will improve as my bank account does!
Thanks for viewing,
batdown
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
1 Food Chain
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Mana Echoes
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Chancellor of the Forge
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Skullmulcher
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Chord of Calling
1 Fecundity
1 Greater Good
1 Autumn's Veil
1 Final Fortune
Tutors/Other Draw
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Grim Tutor
1 Shred Memory
1 Tainted Pact
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Sylvan Library
1 Skullclamp
1 Infernal Contract
Disruption/Removal
1 Stranglehold
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Golgari Charm
1 Chaos Warp
1 Deglamer
1 Krosan Grip
1 Beast Within
1 Nature's Claim
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regrowth
Ramp
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Quirion Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Somberwald Sage
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Priest of Gix
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Dark Ritual
1 Spoils of Victory
Dirty Tricks
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Doomsday
Lands
1 Kher Keep
1 Ancient Tomb
1 High Market
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Strip Mine
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Savage Lands
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Khalni Garden
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
- Reassembling Skeleton - Great card, especially with Attrition and other sac outlets. Hard to cut, but it was the card that made the most sense.
- Ulasht, the Hate Seed. Since this deck started out as a Ulasht deck, this was a hard cut to make sentimentally. I had a lot of good times with Ulasht and I am sad to see her go, but in playtesting I rarely had enough mana to cast her right after the Skyraider, and the dragon and kobolds often did not stick around long enough for me to untap mana and drop an 8/8 Ulasht for 4 the next turn. Sad face.
- Diabolic Intent. Since I decided to cut most other token producers besides the general, this card didn't make sense anymore. I rarely had a creature to sacrifice, and once I have cast Prossh, I rarely had the need to tutor afterwards.
- Karplusan Forest. I only really had this card in the deck because I love the ice age art. Since I'm focusing on basics (kind of), didn't make a lot of sense to leave this in.
- Phyrexian Tower. great sac outlet, but cut for the combined reasons as diabolic intent and karplusan.
+ Cultivate. I got a really nice promo foil and it helps me get to be able to cast prossh sooner. I like the card a lot even late game for its deck-thinning.
+ Diabolic Tutor. Replaced Diabolic Intent.
+ Mages' Contest. I love non-blue counterspells. I also think this card looks really really fun. I love the fact that it brings in psychology and another totally un-Magic game mechanic (bidding).
+ Scroll Rack. Makes the deck harder, better, faster, stronger. Helps me get combo pieces quicker.
+ Ancient Tomb. Early casting of Prossh is what allows me to apply early aggro pressure while setting up my mid-game play. Definitely should have been in from day one, just got my hands on a copy.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
The only common tuck effect that protection effects is Condemn. Hinder, Spell Crumple and Hallowed Burial give you the finger.
Cellar Door works.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
EDIT: I see you posted there, nvm
It's an incredibly tight list and he says that it can win consistently on turns 3-4. Because of that it's a tad glasscanonish but that can be adjusted to your meta and preferences. I see you've included redundancy for Food Chain which I think is smart.
Personally, I would recommend cutting non-creature spells for creature spells wherever possible, especially in your ramp section. That's because these creatures can then be sacced to Food Chain or Prossh to generate mana or one shot someone. Clearly you want to be casting Food Chain as early as possible and any ramp spells that cost 3 or 4 mana you are going to want to think twice about.
The ideal win would look something like this:
1. Forest, Birds of Paradise
2. Mountain, Mana Crypt, Somberwald Sage
3. Swamp, Autumn's Veil, Prossh, Food Chain, Purphoros, God of the Forge - GAME!
You should tailor the deck so that these early wins become more and more likely.
Additionally, I would lower your average cmc as much as possible so that cards like Ad Nauseam and Dark Confidant become viable.
Tainted Pact also works as a second copy of Demonic Tutor here at instant speed IF you can tailor your land base like MCR did (no lands with the same name)
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I'd also love to lower my curve and include Bob, but I'm not sure what substitutions to make in order to accomplish that.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
In multiplayer I think we are going to want something with a bit more lategame resiliency. On page 2 of MCRs thread, you'll see he posted another list that he admits could be "the next evolution for competitive Prossh for me." I feel he is moving in the right direction as far as multiplayer commander goes.
I'm going to post my list here for you to show you what I chose to do with Prossh. I more or less assimilated what I've liked about each Prossh list I've seen and attempted to mash it together into something cohesive. It's not perfect but I'm becoming more and more happy with it. I don't mind losing once in a while if I can get to do big splashy things occasionally (such as reanimate Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger on turn 2)
RAAAAMMP
Cheap:
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Deathrite Shaman (grave hate)
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Bloom Tender
1 Skyshroud Ranger
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Mid-range
1 Primal Growth
1 Yavimaya Dryad
1 Wood Elves
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Somberwald Sage
High-range/Misc
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Earthcraft
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Food Chain
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
LANDS (35)
Any Color
1 Command Tower
1 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Forbidden Orchard
Duals
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Graven Cairns
1 Blood Crypt
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Stomping Ground
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Twilight Mire
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
Utility Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kher Keep
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
Basic Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Mountain
PLANESWALKERS
1 Xenagos, the Reveler (ramp)
DRAW/CARD QUALITY
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Faithless Looting
1 Sylvan Library
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Skullmulcher
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Greater Good
1 Fecundity
REMOVAL/CONTROL
1 Chaos Warp
1 Beast Within
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Attrition
1 Shivan Harvest
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Decree of Pain (also draw)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fierce Empath
1 Goblin Matron
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Birthing Pod
1 Natural Order
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Chord of Calling
REANIMATION/RECURSION
1 Life // Death (also "token" maker)
1 Regrowth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dread Return
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One (also removal)
HASTE ENABLERS
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Urabrask the Hidden
TOKEN MAKERS
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Terastodon (also removal)
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Chancellor of the Forge
GAME ENDERS
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
At face value it doesn't look competitive (compared to MCRs list), but what it lacks in early game wins (turn 3 wins are still totally possible though), it gains in a robust removal suite, blowout card draw, and alternate ways of winning that still synergize with Prossh and the rest of the deck to a satisfactory degree. It also contains considerably more ramp than most decks will ever be able to use (one of the perks of being a green deck).
I really really like Birthing Pod here combined with all the etb creatures. You can sac Prossh (note that Prossh actually wants to be sacced more often than not in my deck to things like Greater Good and Disciple of Bolas) and grab Avenger of Zendikar or Chancellor of the Forge and then curve into Craterhoof for the win.
And honestly I think going the more creature based route allows us to make the best use out of absurdly good cards like Chord of Calling and Natural Order. Reanimation also becomes a viable strategy.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I think you are definitely right about using creature ramp. I'm definitely going to put some more in. You bring up an interesting point about Pod. The first question that springs to mind, though, is why pay three mana for pod when you can just spend three mana to play another mana guy? How many activations will you get out of pod in a game (on average), and how much extra ramp does that net you usually? I've never owned or played with a birthing pod before and I don't have any experience or first-hand knowledge of it.
I used to have natural order in here, but I cut it. Mostly because I sometimes found myself with it in my hand, but no green creatures on the field. Sure, prossh is green, but if I've cast prossh already, I'm either gunning to take people out with commander damage or win that turn, and natural order is 4 mana that I'd rather keep open to just cast a hard tutor or play a finisher. With more green mana guys and land getters, that problem is less of a concern though.
Right now I have Lightning Greaves, Thran Dynamo, Cultivate, Darksteel Ingot, maybe skyshroud claim (although it's so good) and Coalition Relic on the chopping block. I'd like to keep the chromatic lantern. One of these spots will eventually be taken up my Mana Crypt, but I am a long way away from being able to afford one and I want to get fetchlands first.
Yavimaya Dryad will go in, because she food chains for four and she gets any forest. With the plan being to cut the basic land count down to three, I think I will avoid basic land tutor creatures like sakura tribe elder and farhaven elf.
I didn't know about Disciple of Bolas, that will probably replace Fecundity, or perhaps I will keep Fecundity and run both.
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Looking over your list, I have to say that I really like it. You have a lot of removal included that I previously cut, with great reluctance (attrition, deluge, shivan harvest, I also used to run Mind Slash).
Faithless Looting is an interesting choice. Are there any creatures that do something similar?
What do you think about Drumhunter? I am also considering Savage Summoning right now. Do you think it's worth a slot?
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cuts
- Krosan Grip for + Nature's Claim
Split second is amazing, but I'd like to reduce my curve some and Nature's claim costing 2 less mana makes it the right choice. I would like to run both, so if any space opens up later as the deck develops I'll look at putting the grip back in. F***in' tops.
- Cultivate for + Yavimaya Dryad
The basic land count is getting lower, and I want to increase the ramp I get from creatures as opposed to spells because creatures can be sacked for food chain mana or regular mana with the altars. the dryad nets me 4 Food Chain mana and gets duals and shocks; this is the better card for the deck.
- Darksteel Ingot for + Somberwald Sage
Somberwald Sage ramps us up quicker than the ingot. The indestructibility is not too relevant in my meta. Somberwald sage can potentially tap for 3 and then net 4 more with food chain out, that's pretty good.
- Lightning Greaves for + Disciple of Bolas
The greaves are nice and this is a hard cut to make, but I can draw a lot off of the disciple and it also serves as another quasi finisher like fecundity or skullmulcher, so I want to include the card for sure.
- Thran Dynamo for + Fyndhorn Elves
Dynamo is a great rock, but its too midrangey for what I want to do here.
- Ogre Battledriver for + Chord of Calling
I like the battledriver but putting a chord in makes the deck more versatile, and I have three other etb finishers in purphoros, goblin bushwhacker and chancellor of the forge. Battledriver is the weakest out of the etb finishers.
The land base also needs a (very expensive) tune-up, but this will be in the long term plans for the deck, as I cant invest too much more money in it right now. I plan to add:
Mana Crypt (will replace a swamp)
Grove of the Burnwillows (will replace Rootbound Crag)
Forbidden Orchard (will replace a forest)
Bloodstained Mire (will replace a swamp)
Verdant Catacombs (will replace a swamp)
Mana Confluence (will replace a swamp)
City of Brass (will replace a mountain)
Cavern of Souls (will replace a forest)
Tainted Pact (will replace a forest)
that will bring my basics down to one of each, and allow tainted pact to do it's thing.
I've decided against pursuing an aggressive ad nauseam plan, as I'm struggling to get my curve lower and I don't want to cut Chancellor of the Forge or Rune-Scarred Demon, at least not right now. I do want to eventually slot in Dark Confidant, which will probably replace Drumhunter once I can get my hands on a bob.
I like the tutor suite I have now, although I may replace Increasing Ambition with Grim Tutor at some point if/when I get one. I like increasing ambition a lot, but I think I've only used the flashback on it once, and a card that does essentially the same thing for two less mana is the better way to go.
I am also intrigued by Treasonous Ogre. Getting him out on turn two seems really good. should I make room for this guy?
Looking again at the doomsday pile, I'm wondering if I should include a Priest of gix. it works better than lotus petal or the spirit guides in the doomsday pile because it nets four mana with food chain and pays for the infernal contract.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
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GGGThe South TreeGGG
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UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
I think that Coalition Relic, Chromatic Lantern, Nature's Lore, and Spoils of Victory can all get cut for creature based ramp. Deathrite Shaman and Elvish Mystic should be included. Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid are also good since they help get Prossh out on turn 4.
I think I want to make space for Joraga Treespeaker since she can boost all our other mana elves for some midgame power.
I would run both Disciple of Bolas and Fecundity. The more blow out draw we have the better IMO.
Faithless Looting is pretty unique for a red card since it offers so much control. I put it in every single red deck that I build. I think it's that good. There is no creature version really.
Drumhunter isn't good enough IMO. I think you want Oracle of Mul Daya
Savage Summoning isn't really my style. If you are aiming for that early win, then sure maybe it's worth it. Cavern of Souls would be my first choice since it doubles as a mana producer. Dosan the Falling Leaf or Vexing Shusher would be higher on my list.
I think your removal suite isn't strong enough. Granted you might be aiming for a quicker game than I am, but I've found that board wipes are pretty invaluable in this format. In these colors we have some great options. Pernicious Deed is just a house. Toxic Deluge is efficient and selective. Decree of Pain is modular and can generate some insane draw.
Selective removal should be chosen very wisely and will be meta dependent. Some options follow:
Maelstrom Pulse should really be included. It's right up there with Beast Within and Chaos Warp and oftentimes better since it can get rid of multiple stuff at once (or opposing token hoards)
Hull Breach gives you a 2 for 1 in a flexible package.
I've strongly considered Abrupt Decay here but I went with Pulse instead.
I think Decimate could be playable. A selective 4 for 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Putrefy is quite good at instant speed.
Moving on, Increasing Ambition is just bad IMO. Creature tutors are where our strength really lies. In that vein, take a look at what I'm running. All of those cards are designed to get my key creatures into play, preferably without directly paying their mana costs. Natural Order should pull it's weight if you slot enough sufficient green creature ramp. Defense of the Heart is just plain broken since it can double as a creature board lock - Forbidden Orchard helps force it to pop.
Birthing Pod only needs to tutor for something once to be worth it. Obviously the best use of it will be to sac Prossh and grab Avenger of Zendikar or Chancellor of the Forge, then hopefully next turn sac that to get Craterhoof Behemoth and win.
Incidentally, I notice you aren't running Craterhoof. I think that's the root of where our decks differ the most. I assume you aren't running it because it doesn't automatically grant our creatures haste, so it either needs to come out a turn after our tokens or we need a global haste enabler. While that's a valid concern, I believe we can work around it and should. Why? Because ultimately, this is a creature based deck. If we focus too much on Food Chain, I think it will actually weaken the deck, making it too dependent on that single card. It's the glass canon approach and we've seen the end of that road in MCR's list.
Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Priest of Gix, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault and even Dark Ritual while allowing for earlier wins, don't grant us much resilience. They are part of the glass canon ideal which I think is more suited to 1v1 than multiplayer. I prefer cards that both give us immediate value, but also accumulate even more value over time.
Slaughter Games --> Bitter Ordeal if you think you need that effect. Bitter Ordeal can also win you games.
Helm of Possession --> I think you really just want some straight up removal here. Toxic Deluge can solve the same problems that Helm does while offering much more bang for your buck.
Relic of Progenitus --> Bojuka Bog - I've never thought that relic justified a spot in any deck. Scavenging Ooze would be preferable if you really think you need this kind of effect, but I would think that Deathrite Shaman and Shred Memory should be enough. Bojuka Bog should be included regardless. I think it's good enough for any deck running black.
Phyrexian Revoker, Stranglehold - you seem to be rather paranoid of other people's decks. I never maindeck these kinds of stax effects because they don't help with our own gameplan. There are exceptions I suppose but I find that trumping other people's threats with our own is the way to go. The 'ole "the best defense is a good offense" philosophy. That's one reason why I chose to run all 3 praetors in these colors. If not answered, all of them can be game winning.
I think that your voltron subtheme is weak, mainly because while Prossh does have flying, he's got no other evasion or haste. Also, I always prefer to kill everyone at the table at once if I can. Partly because I feel bad taking out one player early and then forcing them to wait until the game is over but also because I find that it takes too much commitment. It's entirely likely that I'll get one shotted out next. If you think it works, then fine, but I've never liked it. Again, I think it comes down to whether you want to be playing the quick game with a fair chance of getting blown out, or whether you want to be in it for the long haul. I also think that this voltron strategy is also better in 1v1.
Some cards only serve the glass canon approach. Lightning Greaves served your voltron strategy but not much else so it was a smart cut. I think you'll find that Xenagos, God of Revels, Psychotic Fury, and Tainted Strike can be cut for much the same logic.
Additionally, I think that we should question any strategy that is totally dependent on our commander. Commanders get tucked, and sometimes it takes a while to get them back into play or the command zone. That's one reason why I chose to include Avenger of Zendikar as a secondary token producer.
One reason I love my Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind primer deck so much is that it is indeed capable of turn 1 and 2 wins but if those attempts get blown out I can easily win a different way during the next few turns. The deck isn't totally dependent/committed to that early win and neither is it dependent on my commander in the slightest. It's very fast but also resilient. I know the best of both worlds is possible and it's what we should aim for.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
let me know,
your boy batdown
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I'm not sold on Deathrite Shaman, mostly because it can't do anything the turn it comes out. Also, how often are lands in the graveyard? Doesn't seem to happen a whole lot in my meta. Grave hate is good, but I'm not sure about this card.
Fyndhorn Elder and Greenweaver Druid are interesting suggestions. I might slot them in for Nature's Lore and Spoils of Victory, although I would like to keep Spoils for the great fixing. I'll get those elves and test them.
I think I want to make space for Joraga Treespeaker since she can boost all our other mana elves for some midgame power.
Yeah, both should be included.
Summoning Prossh at the end of an opponent's turn seems really good. I like the Dosan suggestion as well. Cavern of Souls is in my future plans for sure.
Decree is pain is too expensive. Toxic Deluge is a great card, but costs a lot of mana to get rid of big stuff, more than Helm of Possession. I'm still considering this, but as eldrazi/colossus removal (that I don't have to play around myself), I like Helm of Possession.
Maelstrom Pulse is very good. Hull Breach is great, but I prefer instants to sorceries - I have better things to do on my turn.
Decimate is too expensive, and I don't like that it's a sorcery and cant be cast without 4 valid targets.
You're right about ambition. Chord of Calling will replace it when I pick it up today from the shop. Defense of the Heart is also a great suggestion. I plan to include this.
Craterhoof is great and all, but it still needs the general in order to do anything. I'm considering cutting my one shot cards (Psychotic Fury, Tainted Strike and Xenagod) and replacing them with craterhoof, however, craterhoof is going to be incredibly hard to cast without food chain or the altars/mana echoes, so I'm not sure how much I agree with the argument that Craterhoof offers a valid path to victory in the absence of the combo.
I just don't agree with this. There isn't a whole lot of creature ramp that scales well with a longer game, and we don't want longer games anyway. Casting the spirit guides is still a great play in this deck, as we can use any creature as a resource to fuel the deck's threats at any stage in the game.
I think you're right about Bitter Ordeal. Slaughter games cant be countered though - and it gets stuff in hands and graveyards. I like that Bitter ordeal doesn't require me to name a card, though, and it also lets me see my opponent's deck. That's valuable recon. You make a great point that ordeal also wins games while Slaughter games does not. It's going in.
Relic is definitely a meta-call, but I might consider replacing with Bog, or something else entirely. I think I should be ok as long as I have one card in the deck, that I can tutor for, that deals with Necrotic Ooze grave combos.
Paranoid is probably a good word for it. Strangehold is simply too good to cut IMO. I understand the value of playing threats to trump my opponents - but I think this is an example of the 1v1 glass cannon approach that you and I are both wary of. Stranglehold prevents opponents from tutoring for cards that answer ours, and it curves nicely into prossh for a really good early game play. It also shuts down most traditional ramp. I'd rather play a stranglehold than a one-shot instant that kills one thing that an opponent tutors up. Revoker is a creature, and shuts down several generals that I see regularly like Azami. I like it in the deck.
I tend to agree with you, and I am considering replacements for these three slots. I don't buy the argument that Craterhoof is a strictly better inclusion than these...Craterhoof also depends on Prossh to win. Also, tuck doesnt hurt this deck too much because the best answer to tuck is tutor, and we have plenty of that.
Resiliency is what I'm aiming for. While the deck is committed to the combo, I find that my combo redundancy guards very well against removal and disruption, and even if that plan fails entirely, commander damage is the most efficient way to eliminate players. I'm still looking at other cards to support a backup plan, but I'm not sold on craterhoof because of the high mana requirement (although 8 is not that hard to get up to), but it looks like the most logical choice. Avenger is good as well, but more often than not I think burning a tutor is a better way to respond to prossh getting tucked, rather than spend 7 mana to cast Avenger and leave prossh in the library.
Awesome comments - thanks!
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I think my comment warrants a bit more explanation. The main reason I don't like cards like Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal in this format is that they are card disadvantage. You are essentially 2 for 1'ing your self. If whatever spell you invest the mana in gets countered or removed you are pretty severely set back. Burning-Tree Emissary, Priest of Gix and Priest of Urabrask can probably stay since they are essentially free color fixing creatures and can be abused if you find a way to cheat them out or if you are running Kiki lol, and of course Food Chain loves them.
So basically, I think I'm going to suggest that your current non-creature ramp should be swapped for creatures for the reasons we discussed, especially Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal, and to a lesser degree the other stuff. There are plenty of solid creature ramp spells that you aren't running.
Xenagos, the Reveler i think deserves a spot. He can really ramp like a mofo.
Earthcraft allows you to equip skullclamp for free essentially. It's just crazy. Too bad you don't have any basics to speak of though. I still really like it in my build since I can fetch those basics.
Deathrite Shaman shouldn't be depended on as ramp and I'd only run it if you and your opponents run a fair number of fetchlands. I think it's a lot better than Relic of Progenitus though.
Skyshroud Ranger is good enough to include I think.
Bloom Tender is good in a 3 color deck. Granted, she's only going to be tapping for green early, but it's nice to have something that's scalable.
It's worth noting that Bitter Ordeal is pseudo uncountable since it has storm. (You need a Mindbreak Trap to stop it)
Infernal Contract isn't good enough. The triple black is going to be hard to get most of the time and half your life isn't nothing in multiplayer, especially if you're in archenemy mode. If you want cheap draw I think Faithless Looting should be your go-to. Phyrexian Arena is also good. If you don't like either of these options, I would just side in another tutor so you can get another draw engine going.
Insidious Dreams is just a poor man's Vampiric Tutor - mostly because of it's high cost. I'm not going to discard my hand just have someone cast a Time Spiral on me. I really think something like Tooth and Nail, Defense of the Heart, Birthing Pod, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, or Summoner's Pact would be better. You'll notice I'm running all of these because I think it's wise to take advantage of green's ability to cheat specific creatures into play, especially creatures with etb abilities. I've harped on this a lot, but I don't think you should just omit it.
Worth noting, Green Sun's Zenith acts as a one mana Rampant Growth if you get Dryad Arbor. It's a fairly awesome turn 1 play that I wouldn't skip out on. Zenith is just a solid scalable tutor that's useful at any point in the game.
As for Craterhoof, I just couldn't imagine playing without it (in fact the majority of my games are won with it, and not Food Chain). The ability to cheat it into play is just bonkers. If you are able to reliably give your tokens haste, it's just a solid win con. Craterhoof and the creature tutors go hand in hand.
If you really think the haste thing is a problem you can use Urabrask the Hidden, Fervor, Fires of Yavimaya, Mass Hysteria, or Sarkhan Vol. There's lots of answers.
I'm never unhappy to see Avenger in my hand. It gives me another route to win with Craterhoof and fuel for my sac outlets. It also has great synergy with Kiki-jiki and Birthing Pod.
I guess that's about all I've got to yammer about at the moment
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
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While you are right about card disadvantage regarding these cards, they also offer opportunities for turn one wins that just wouldnt be possible without them in the deck.
Turn one: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Priest of Gix, Elvish Spirit Guide, Simian Spirit Guide, Food Chain, exile priest, Prossh, Blood Artist.
Of course, this play is also possible with mana crypt, but I just cant afford one right now. I want to keep these cards because they are unique in that they can enable bonkers plays before anyone has a chance to do much of anything to stop me (although nature's claim is a hoser). If there was a black spirit guide, I would play it over the petal.
I've updated my ramp section. I'm now running 6 basics (one snow basic and one regular for each color), so I added in Farhaven Elf. I've also added Fyndhorn Elder.
I don't know about Earthcraft. It's an absolute house and the interaction with skullclamp is obviously ridiculous, but 6 basics...I don't know. It's also not a creature.
I really want to make room for Bloom Tender - I will probably take out Spoils of Victory. A hard cut for me to make because I have a sentimental attachment to Spoils of Victory and I love everything to do with Three Kingdoms. Oh well, I'll put it in the Glissa landfall deck I'm brewing.
Bitter Ordeal will go in, and probably replace Goblin Bushwhacker for versatility's sake.
Deathrite Shaman is still something I'm looking at and considering, but I'm not sure if it will make it in.
Infernal Contract is what makes Doomsday a one-turn clock. If I cut it then I feel like I have to cut Doomsday. That's something I might do in the future, especially once I get my hands on some more expensive stuff like Grim Tutor. For now though, I think I'm going to keep it. It's more or less a dead card if I don't cast Doomsday during the game, though.
This sounds stupid but I've never considered that interaction with green sun's and dryad arbor - that's awesome. I've put in Green Sun's Zenith and Tooth and Nail. Insidious Dreams never really gets more than one card, and I think the card is still good even as a Vampiric Tutor that costs 4 and a card rather than 1 and 2 life. It's still in there for now, but may get cut in the future as I acquire more expensive tutors.
I've playtested Craterhoof in the last couple days, and wow you are right about it. Solid win con, great target for tooth and nail, and too good not to run.
I dont really think haste is a big problem. I did used to to Run Sarkhan Vol as a finisher, and it's a really solid card with just prossh. I wound up cutting Tainted Strike and Psychotic Fury. I'm keeping Xenagos, God of Revels because it puts my opponents on a clock immediately, gives haste, and is indestructible and reusable. It's also a great tutor target as a creature.
Updating the deck list and OP soon, check it out.
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About Earthcraft:
I would only run Earthcraft if you think you can reliably fetch basics (and honestly I think it's good enough to build around). One pretty awesome play that happened the other night was using Earthcraft to generate like 12 mana with the creatures I had out in addition to like 6 original mana I had tapped my lands for. I put all of that mana into Kessig Wolf Run targeting Prossh of course. Prossh then proceeded to eat all the tokens and I hit for like 31+ trampling damage. That kind of play can happen on turn 7 barring any kind of ramp or haste enablers. I guess when used in that way it acts as a 2 mana Xenagos, God of Revels.
Earthcraft is basically my substitute for Gaea's Cradle and I've built around it. If I had a cradle, I think I'd cut Earthcraft and just make sure I can get cradle into play reliably with a Crop Rotation or something.
Another cool thing about Earthcraft is that it grants all of my mana tapping elves pseudo haste since they can tap for mana the turn they come out.
Besides Squirrel Nest (which I'm not running because it sucks by itself and I'm not going to tutor for it) Earthcraft also makes infinite mana with Aggravated Assault which I'm strongly considering trying out. These combos make Earthcraft a serious threat and most people will try to remove it. Running cheap permanents that demand removal is always a good plan.
About Infernal Contract and your Doomsday package:
I try very hard not to run cards that aren't good by themselves and preferably the majority of cards you run should be good both early and late game. Green Sun's Zenith is a great example of a card that is both useful anytime and perfectly usable on its own since it can be cast turn 1 to get Dryad Arbor and later ends the game with Craterhoof Behemoth.
Infernal Contract only wants to be cast in conjunction with your Doomsday plan. It's a very bad topdeck early in the game since they chance of having BBB can't be relied upon. Also, losing half your life on turn 3 isn't ideal either.
I think the risks involved with Doomsday don't justify the reward for 3 reasons:
1.) What happens if Infernal Contract or Food Chain are exiled or in your graveyard when you draw into Doomsday? Without Contract you are going to have to draw into your combos over the course of a few turns and at 20 or less life you are going to be killed by the table in a competitive meta. Without Food Chain, you are going to need one of your replacement combos which require 3 additional cards next to Prossh instead of just 2.
2.) The second major problem is that that you have to pass the turn in most circumstances. With 3 other players at the table it's very very likely that someone is going to find a way to kill you before your next turn. You're at 20 or less life. You only have 5 cards in your library. Wheel of Fortune will knock you out of the game. And each player only has to deal 7 damage to you to go lethal.
3.) The last issue is that anyone with instant speed removal or disruption WILL leave mana open to stop you. My Cyclonic Rift laughs at your Autumn's Veil (assuming it even resolves in the first place which is unlikely). In a competitive meta, the chances of you getting blown out here are fairly high. Your Autumn's Veil isn't going to stop a Krosan Grip or a Counterbalance either. There are a lot of ways to get around it.
About Insidious Dreams:
I actually prefer Insidious Dreams to Doomsday. The card disadvantage is pretty incredible though and combined with its 4 cmc, makes it less than competitive I think. We aren't Damia, Sage of Stone where this would really shine. The cards that makes this good are cards like Living Death (or other mass reanimation) and Wheel of Fortune (or something like Necropotence or Greater Good) but they can't be relied upon to make this work. Like you said, you are pretty much only ever going to be getting 1 or 2 cards with this, and I can't see myself paying 4 mana for that. Topdecking tutors are less than ideal since they leave you open to shuffling effects.
I think a creature tutor is going to serve you better especially something like Defense of the Heart or Natural Order which cheats them straight onto the battlefield bypassing your hand and mana cost completely. 2 fine examples of why green is almost as broken as blue. Since you are running Craterhoof being able to get it when you need to win is paramount. Birthing Pod is a cheaper alternative to these two though and I'd suggest giving it a run. The ability to sac Prossh (who actually wants to be sacced) and get Chancellor of the Forge is pretty bonkers.
Heh, worth noting Natural Order works amazingly with the Green Sun's Zenith/Dryad Arbor trick. You can get a fatty out on turn 3 with only those 3 cards (and 3 land drops of course). Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger would probably be the first pick in my deck in that situation since it's too early for Avenger or Craterhoof. It shuts down our opponents and doubles our own mana. Unless dealt with it's going to propel us to a win pretty quick since next turn you'll be casting Prossh and hopefully getting a draw engine going or even a turn 4 Food Chain win.
Treasonous Ogre:
I noticed that you added Treasonous Ogre. Let me know how it plays for you. Creature ramp is always good but 4 is kind of a lot for a deck that's trying to win early. The 3 life also adds up and guarantees a easy loss if you get Mindslavered. I think in most cases I would rather have an Oracle of Mul Daya or Skyshroud Claim for 4 mana. The exception would be if I was going the combo route and trying to win with something like Transcendence or Repay in Kind.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
With that in mind were Pyroblast or Red Elemental Blast ever considered to combat counterspells?
They can be houses for me but I purposely play a less busted, more casual deck partly focused around being a dick to blue players.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
They were both in earlier incarnations of the deck, but I cut them. Although I do see a lot of blue when I'm playing this deck, I don't want to worry about having completely dead draws in the games where I dont face it. Anti-blue decks are hilarious, though. Carpet of Flowers, boil, curse of marit lage, etc. all make me smile. Im thinking about making a deck full of those color-hosing cards.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Yeah, that is basically the premise behind my Prossh. I still need Carpet, Choke and a few other cards.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Burnout. Love that card.
Magistrate's Veto, scald, seedtime.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Special thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the avatar and Inkfox Aesthetics for the sig.
Vaevictus Asmadi, Creator of [The Spirit of EDH]
EDH Decks
BRGProssh, the Chump-Block DragonBRG
BRGVaevictis Asmadi-Hoarder of ManaBRG