Outpost Siege. Not a huge fan of Volcanic Offering either but at least its effect is powerful. Siege is no where close to even the power level of Impact Tremors for hitting opponents and is a much worse Goblin Sharpshooter for hitting creatures. Plus I mean you have like 4 other cards that basically do the same thing but are better at it. Unless you find yourself using its khans form a lot I don't think that's worth a slot at 4 mana.
Anyway if you don't like how some cards are just staples then I get it. It bothers me too sometimes that you try so hard to make your deck creative and then sort of realize there's a reason that basically every blue deck plays Consecrated Sphinx and you're pretty much just neutering yourself by playing that other guy instead. SDT is definitely one of those cards. Maybe it would be better to just ban SDT, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls and all the other cards that get put in almost every single deck without question. I could probably get on board with that. But until they do not playing them is just giving everyone else a free leg up unless your whole group agrees with your philosophy. I play for fun but I still like to win sometimes.
And I didn't mean to suggest that you were cheap. I know how expensive Imperial Recruiter and some of those other cards are because I grimaced my way through buying them as well. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that doesn't make it any easier the next time you have convince yourself to shell out $30 for a piece of cardboard. Especially one wizards originally decided was an uncommon, then its not even a rare piece of cardboard
Outpost Siege. Not a huge fan of Volcanic Offering either but at least its effect is powerful. Siege is no where close to even the power level of Impact Tremors for hitting opponents and is a much worse Goblin Sharpshooter for hitting creatures. Plus I mean you have like 4 other cards that basically do the same thing but are better at it. Unless you find yourself using its khans form a lot I don't think that's worth a slot at 4 mana.
Anyway if you don't like how some cards are just staples then I get it. It bothers me too sometimes that you try so hard to make your deck creative and then sort of realize there's a reason that basically every blue deck plays Consecrated Sphinx and you're pretty much just neutering yourself by playing that other guy instead. SDT is definitely one of those cards. Maybe it would be better to just ban SDT, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls and all the other cards that get put in almost every single deck without question. I could probably get on board with that. But until they do not playing them is just giving everyone else a free leg up unless your whole group agrees with your philosophy. I play for fun but I still like to win sometimes.
And I didn't mean to suggest that you were cheap. I know how expensive Imperial Recruiter and some of those other cards are because I grimaced my way through buying them as well. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that doesn't make it any easier the next time you have convince yourself to shell out $30 for a piece of cardboard. Especially one wizards originally decided was an uncommon, then its not even a rare piece of cardboard
I essentially agree with your post but it's a little bit more complicated than that. You see, Outpost Siege is part of what I call "Plan A". It's the main strategy, the main reason why we play Norin: to win with ETB triggers generated by Norin and another permanent. Outpost Siege is actually a LTB trigger but you get the idea. It also has huge synergy with Goblin Bombardment. I don't think I will have too many of these. Siege is strictly superior to Vigilance Justice, and had this card been a little bit better written to also work with goblin tokens, I would probably play it too.
SDT, while a good card, has no concrete synergy with the deck.
I like the example of Consecrated Sphinx, because it's the perfect card that everyone hates to see in the format and they usually has no specific synergy with the decks it's played in. Take my Ixidor morph deck. Would the Sphinx be bad? I don't think it could ever be bad. But is it good? Does it help me towards my gameplan? Is it actually part of my game plan or me theme? Not at all. It just totally sucks, IMO. It's probably better than Bident of Thassa, but it doesn't have any synergy or flavor, and that's something important for me in the format. If it wasn't, I would just play 60 counterspells with Talrand and 39 lands and I may actually have a higher win percentage than what I have with Ixidor or Norin currently. But I would probably quit playing Magic after 30 minutes...
I'm not completely prisoner of the flavor or my decks' themes but I always take it into consider when I decide to play something like Tuktuk Scraper instead of Manic Vandal for example. It's not only because I have Moggcatcher, it's just more on-theme. Imperial Recruiter isn't a goblin but does something really relevant in my gameplan: it gets me Moggcatcher, Kiki-Jiki or specific creatures for specific situations (Scrapper and Assassin mostly). SDT doesn't do any of this.
This is why at the end Drum and Mind Stone end up being better than SDT for me: these cards do something related to the game plan and in the case of Springleaf Drum, it has a really specific synergy with my general. SDT doesn't. Consecrated Sphinx doesn't either. I would call the Sphinx a filler, especially when you are not playing on a competitive level. And even at a high-competitive level, I'm pretty sure there are better 6-CMC spells that can make you win.
Finally, I just want to say that while building a deck without such staple fillers is definitely a challenge, it is also rewarding, because despite all the arguments you made for SDT, I am totally convinced that my deck wouldn't be better (on a win% ratio or whatever unit you use to calculate this) with SDT in my list, for all the reasons I stated. I actually don't plan to play SDT in any of my deck. I think SDT is just the easy and lazy choice, there will always be better cards doing something more related to the gameplan or at least giving you card advantage (which Top doesn't). If you are playing Lin Sivvi as your general then yes, you get a really huge value of Top and Scrollcrack, but that's a different matter.
(Sorry for all the typos, there are a lot but I'm on my phone right now.)
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
RULES UPDATES
Hang onto your hats: we’re changing how tuck works for commanders.
If your commander would go into the library or your hand, you may choose to put it into the command zone. It’s as simple as that. Just like with the graveyard, if you want it to go into the library/hand, you’re more than welcome to let it. Note that this is a replacement effect, but it can apply multiple times to the same event.
Warp World, Chaos Warp and Stingscourger are the only affected cards, and it's not like if Norin ever got tucked (screw you, Humility!). The hand-to-command-zone interaction isn't really relevant (except for generals like Marath and Prossh), so let's focus on the tuck part. Chaos Warp is still a really strong removal spell, although we probably don't want to use it on opponents' Generals anymore since it would give them some kind of card advantage (but we still could in some specific situations). Warp World is a completely different beast and because you reveal as many cards as the number you shuffled, not tucking the Commander also means one less card from my understanding of the rules, so that's fine with me. It's still a really strong card and really strong effect for mono-red that can get rid of some problematic permanents that we couldn't otherwise.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
chaos warp now reads "tuck target enchantment" now to me. warp world sadly went out of main deck, both for stax prevalent strategies and the lack of control decks in my meta (both contributing to other decks having the same amounts of permanents as i do).
i really like the justification for the rule change (i'm being sarcastic). tuck was in the opinion of the commitee only present in blue and white (forgetting it was in green as well for enchantments and red for all permanents, but you know) so every deck had to have access to those colors (...really any besides black) to deal with problem commanders.
now the only way to deal with problem commanders is stax (yawn) or countering. yay, every colour could counter a blue commander (maybe except green, but i wouldn't be so sure)!
I'm with you on that one, I really don't understand what happened here and that thing about white and blue, it's like they totally forgot about red and green suddenly. It's definitely more complicated in black though.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Actually I would argue the #1 solution to problem commanders is now Mind Control and its ilk. And everyone has at least one of those available to them in Helm of Possession (although not everyone can abuse it as well as we can). And if you've got a blue deck, get your Treachery now.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
these are answers if the generals aren't hexproofed by themselves (narset) or by any of the 12 billion artifacts that grant hexproof or shroud.
the enchantments are answers if you can put them in play without playing them, like you do with zur or by blinking them with venser. warp world works too if i'm not mistaken.
helm of possession nails it for monored anyway, all the other creature steal are way better in, say, marchesa or brion stoutarm.
i, for one, just added to my norin both red elemental blast and pyroblast.
these are answers if the generals aren't hexproofed by themselves (narset) or by any of the 12 billion artifacts that grant hexproof or shroud.
That's what Arcane Lighthouse is for Also it's not like Chaos Warp was any better at hitting those generals. Terminus and Hallowed Burial took a major blow but fortunately that's not our problem. And it's not like its that huge of a blow anyway, Terminus is still amazing because of the one mana miracle wipe and both are still pretty darn powerful since they stop recursion tricks too.
Hexproof has a weird interaction if you manage to trade Confusion in the Ranks to the player who has Hexproof creatures (since he controls Confusion, you can target his Hexproof creatures with it). I don't care too much about the billions of artifacts since mono-red deals just fine with that.
I also added Perilous Vault and O-Stone to my list, with also Mogg Infestation, just to be sure to deal with whatever is on the battlefield. Shroud generals will always be a problem because they come back the turn after but hey, that's part of the format (especially now). Even non-Hexproof generals come back the turn after... and we are playing one of the most resilient general in the format in Norin, he dodges any removal spell (spot or mass), any combat trick and is cheap to play anyway.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Hexproof has a weird interaction if you manage to trade Confusion in the Ranks to the player who has Hexproof creatures (since he controls Confusion, you can target his Hexproof creatures with it). I don't care too much about the billions of artifacts since mono-red deals just fine with that.
I also added Perilous Vault and O-Stone to my list, with also Mogg Infestation, just to be sure to deal with whatever is on the battlefield. Shroud generals will always be a problem because they come back the turn after but hey, that's part of the format (especially now). Even non-Hexproof generals come back the turn after... and we are playing one of the most resilient general in the format in Norin, he dodges any removal spell (spot or mass), any combat trick and is cheap to play anyway.
Would you believe me if i told you that i had confusion in the ranks out and didn't notice i could target hexproofed stuff my opponents had? you absolutely made my day.
Hexproof has a weird interaction if you manage to trade Confusion in the Ranks to the player who has Hexproof creatures (since he controls Confusion, you can target his Hexproof creatures with it). I don't care too much about the billions of artifacts since mono-red deals just fine with that.
I also added Perilous Vault and O-Stone to my list, with also Mogg Infestation, just to be sure to deal with whatever is on the battlefield. Shroud generals will always be a problem because they come back the turn after but hey, that's part of the format (especially now). Even non-Hexproof generals come back the turn after... and we are playing one of the most resilient general in the format in Norin, he dodges any removal spell (spot or mass), any combat trick and is cheap to play anyway.
Would you believe me if i told you that i had confusion in the ranks out and didn't notice i could target hexproofed stuff my opponents had? you absolutely made my day.
well, my pleasure haha!
But yeah, against Uril for example, you just want to trade Confusion with an aura, then you can just trade Norin with Uril at EOT hehe. Be prepared to show the CR for Hexproof though since most opponents won't believe you, but it's really clear: Hexproof means that it can't be targeted by spells or abilities your opponent controls. The player who controls Confusion in the Ranks is subject to get his Hexproof (but not shroud) creatures being targeted. Not to say that if a shroud creature would enter the battlefield, he would have to trade also (Confusion doesn't target the creature entering the battlefield).
See this like Evangelize. Even if the opponent actually chooses which creature the spell targets, he can't choose one if his Hexproof creature because the spell is controlled by one of his opponent, thus making targetting an Hexproof creature an illegal action.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Just wondering, how well does Warp World do when you've gotten it to resolve?
It did well for me everytime I resolved it, honestly. The thing is, I have a lot of permanents or cards that generate multiple permanents (Chamber and Battlesphere for example), so that helps a lot to both generate card advantage before resolving it but also after, because of the really high winning-enchantment count. If you reveal Purphoros, he enters at the same time as every creature, which is usually enough to kill every opponent; for the other enchantments, although they enter the battlefield after the creatures as per Warp World text, I usually get a lot of value still because of ETB triggers of cards like Siege-Gang or Chamber like I said.
This deck only needs one or two good enchantments with a couple of triggers to win and Warp World usually makes it happen all at once: you get the enchantments but you also get all the ETB triggers you need at the same time.
That's for offensive scenarios, because I also play this card defensively when I really need to get rid of something. Even if that specific card is revealed again by my opponent in the resolution of Warp World, chances are good that I also reveal O-Stone, P-Vault or Confusion, which will usually get rid of any problem on the battlefield anyway. 83 cards out of 99 are entering the battlefield with Warp World, and if we remove Warp World itself, that's actually 83 out of 98 (3 planeswalkers, 4 instant and 8 sorceries don't ETB). That's nearly a 85% hit rate, which is also something I must consider when adding or removing cards in the deck.
I usually don't care too much about what my opponents reveal, TBH. And it's always really fun to resolve, obviously. The fun factor is probably even more important ;p.
So, scenario 1: late game, every player has 12-15 permanents, you have 20-22 because of tokens or something else but you are not yet winning because your opponents do have a defense or you don't have a key enchantment. You cast Warp World and you probably win before the end of turn.
Scenario 2: you are losing, you don't have a lot of board presence, something like 8-12 permaments, your opponents have as many as you but better permanents or control on the board, so you cast Warp World... one or two players will reveal 4-5 sorceries and will be left with not much (or no land) while you will get anything from your deck, which might be lands or other permanents (hopefully a little bit of both, but it may be unbalanced). You saved yourself from death and you basically restarted the game but you should still have a slight edge depending on what your opponents are playing (obviously, in that situation, you care a little bit more about what your opponents reveal).
Blue decks usually play a lot of non-permanent cards. Black too.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Just wondering, how well does Warp World do when you've gotten it to resolve?
I'm going to give you another response because I got to use Warp World yesterday in an epic 4-player game.
I was playing against Animar, Scion and a RG general that I don't even know the name and I had really a bad board position with nothing but lands and Trading Post. My opponents wiped the board a couple of times and I was doing mostly nothing so far in that game if not playing my land drops every turn.
I finally draw some action with Memory Jar, which ended up milling 14 cards since I got 5 lands and a Wheel of Fortune (that I decided to play with Terrain Generator and a Mountain) and I did mill a couple of enchantments there (I never draw any big enchantment in that game).
Until I finally draw Word of Seizing. Dear God, is it a good card. Mostly just lands on the battlefield for everyone (I had Goats from Trading Post) except the Animar player who had Animar and a Lifeblood Hydra with 7 counters and High Market untapped just in case. You can't imagine how good that felt... stealing that Hydra at split second, attacking with it, and saccing it to Trading Post to get back my Gauntlet of Power. The feeling... awww.
Anyway, I drew Gamble and 6 really random cards not helping me at all, so in my 2nd main phase, I Gambled and looked at my deck (half of it was in the graveyard), I had 12 permanents on the battlefield and my opponents all had a similar number (from 9 to 12). I was losing no matter what (or that's what I thought) because I couldn't match the power-level of Scion, so I decided that I was here to have fun and have some kind of impact in that game and got Warp World, which, after drawing 7, I didn't discard to Gamble. I tapped out (after Gauntlet of Power) and played it.
How can Warp World completely change a game? My opponents didn't whiff: they revealed a lot of really huge permanents but almost no lands (2-3 lands max). I got 5 lands to work with, Wurmcoil Engine, Goblin Bombardment, Perilous Vault and a couple of irrelevant spells that got shuffled to the bottom of my deck.
My opponents had all sort of ETB triggers with Duplicant, Avenger of Zendikar, big dragons, etc... and all I did is sac my board to Goblin Bombardment, and, in response to Wurmcoil death's trigger, activated Perilous Vault. My opponents were left with 2-3 lands each (Goblin Bombardment actually killed the Animar player) and I had 2 Wurm tokens with 4 lands left (one got destroyed after Warp World). My opponents never got any lands and I drew Koth and went to town with my Wurms and my 4/4 Mountain. What a game it was...
This is how Warp World can go in a totally defensive situation (I should call this the desperate mode). This is how it can change a game, even against big fat dragons and big fat Animar deck. This is how I won a game I was losing no matter what else I had played. And that felt really good. And everyone was good sport about it, they were pretty impressed about Norin winning this game, since I did totally nothing before that to really be a threat. Totally out of nowhere and unexpected.
This is why I play Warp World, and this is why I love this format.
And the most spectacular thing about this game is that I played no Norin engine at all besides Springleaf Drum. The only enchantments I ever got on the battlefield was Goblin Bombardment out of Warp World before it got exiled with Perilous Vault. Wurm tokens and Koth, that's all you need.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I've been reading this post and Gaka's primer with interest for some time and I am happy to say I am just a few cards short of finishing my Norin deck
I have a couple of questions I want to run by you guys. I've done some playtesting and I think this is more or less the direction I would like to head at although it does need some work I admit.
First of all, here is the deck that I would be running.
I really big difference I've noticed with other decks is the lack of Pandemonium. I'm really not sure about this card. Not a big fan of it to be honest.
Don't worry, Pandemonium isn't needed anymore with all the different enchantments they printed for us. It's a double-edged sword.
Also, I was wondering why you decided to pick Worn Powerstone overPalladium Myr? The Myr is a nontoken creature that enters the battlefield and can be given haste. Is there something I'm overlooking here?
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
There are a couple of things to take into account here. A 3-cmc artifact that taps for 2 has more value than a 2-cmc artifact that taps for 1. Creatures are also more vulnerable than non-creature artifacts. This is my argument to play Worn Powerstone over Palladium Myr: a little bit harder to destroy since it doesn't have 2 super types.
Also, looking at my curve right now, from 1 to 6 mana, I have respectively 8, 8, 12, 18, 10 and 5 spells. I can pretty much say that the best cards in this deck are in the 4, 5 and 6-cmc slots. 2-CMC ramp like Iron Myr gets me to 4 mana on turn 3, and I have 18 spells at 4 mana. That's huge. Pandemonium, Outpost Siege and Aftershock can all be really strong turn 3. Solemn Simulacrum and Gauntlet of Might are pretty much the best turn 3 you can have with this deck. When playing 1v1, Goblin Settler can be added to this list.
3-CMC ramp like Worn Powerstone gets me to 6 mana on turn 4. I can pretty much play everything in my deck this way. Grinning Ignus, Honor-Worn Shaku and Springleaf Drum are the only other ramp I run, besides the 2 Gauntlets (mana doublers). Drum is even better than any 2-CMC ramp because of Norin, but we still need the first 2 turns to set it up properly (since we can't play both Norin and Drum on turn 1). Shaku... okay, this is SLIGHTLY better than Worn Powerstone. Grinning Ignus is basically a delayed Dark Ritual with the possibility of having a lot of ETB/LTB triggers.
I think this deck likes to ramp. But we are playing mono-red. We don't ramp as much as green. But we still do.
Now that I established that we want to play the 4-5-6 cmc spells as fast as possible (or even a turn 6 Warp World after a turn 2 Genesis Chamber can be game-winning, you know), I don't think I can remove any of the ramp I'm actually playing.
Finally, if Worn Powerstone is better than Palladium Myr, why isn't Fire Diamond better than Iron Myr? 3 things to consider. 3 tiny details: Anger, Myr Battlesphere and Kiki-Jiki. It can make a difference, and in the case of a 2-CMC ramp (for +1 mana), I think it's worth the risk: if my opponent spends removal on Iron Myr or if it gets removed in a board wipe, I'm fine with it. It's different in the case of Worn Powerstone/Palladium Myr, since I don't think it's worth it anymore. Creatures die a lot more in this format than artifacts. 3-CMC, +2 ramp like Worn Powerstone is more valuable.
I loveThousand-Year Elixir as it's almost a haste enabler and lets me do some extra shenanigans with Krenko, Feldon, Kiki and the likes.
It works with 7 creatures in your list, which is definitely not enough for me to consider it. It's not bad when you have one of the 7 creatures, but that's just 1 card in your deck that you can't tutor.
For the 5 mana slot I've gone forRing of three wishes instead of Perilous Vault. I read you needed to get rid of enchantments in your meta but the vault just seems like a suicide move. I must admit I don't see the use of exiling the entire boardstate. I use Steel Hellkite to get rid of some enchantments (albeit destructible ones :))
Exile isn't really a big problem, it's actually something good since I don't play Relic of Progenitus anymore. Perilous Vault can get rid of anything, which is usually hard to do in mono-red. I do play Vandalblast and Tuktuk Scrapper too for artifacts, which you don't. Mono-red is the best color to deal with artifacts, your meta must be really light on artifacts to not play those cards. Vedalken Shackles is so strong in this format.
I've decided to cut Honor-Worn Shaku&Springleaf Drum. The last one only gives me one mana so I've replaced it with a mountain instead. I was getting manascrewed a lot. I don't run a lot of Legendary's to get good use of the shaku and I felt it was a dead draw most of the times.
I totally disagree on that one. Honor-Worn Shaku is Sol Ring. It's slightly better than Worn Powerstone in this deck. And I see you play Mind's Eye. Those 2 cards go well together. In a 4 player game, you get to untap the Shaku 4 times. Don't forget that Purphoros can untap it too, even if not a creature (I'm running a couple of other legends too, of course).
I actually play Goblin Marshal instead of Beetleback Chief (Gaka plays the latter). The thing is, most of the time, I don't want it on turn 4 anyway, I usually tutor it up with Moggcatcher to get Goblin Assassin triggers or just to win with Krenko and a ton of goblins. The big Marshal represents 5 goblins, Bettleback Chief gives you 3 goblins, and the little Mogg War Marshal also gives you 3 goblins. I just did the maths with Warp World, Purphoros, Impact Tremors, Goblin Bombardment and Outpost Siege and... well. Even with Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium, if you do the maths... Beetleback Chief doesn't have a lot of advantages, besides not being a 6-CMC spell I guess (but I rarely hardcast Goblin Marshal, that makes me feel unhappy, and that would be the same thing with Beetleback Chief, there are so many better things we can do with 4 or 6 mana with this deck, so since it's usually a Moggcatcher thing for me (with Krenko and Kiki-Jiki, if Siege-Gang Commander (producing 4 goblins) is already gone and I want to overrun my opponents with goblins or with ETB triggers), the mana cost doesn't mind as much).
Planar Chaos&Price of gloryI just like. The former brings smiles at the table and makes people a bit 'wary' of casting their big spells for a couple of turns. Price of glory does bring hate but it's super powerful! No more "at the end of your turn" tomfoolery.
Those are personal choices, really strong cards for sure, you can't really go wrong. Planar Chaos is something I should try someday, I just don't like how random it is, but I totally see why people enjoy playing it.
I've included Dualcaster mage because I like the effect. I took out reiterate &Wild ricochet because I didn't like to keep my mana open the entire time. And when I did, nothing useful seems to come my way
It's definitely the best Fork for Norin, with Kiki-Jiki, Feldon and Imperial Recruiter. I used to play Reiterate (good with Warp World if you have 14 mana to start with) but I removed all the copy effects since then.
Can't argue with you on that one, I would definitely play it if I didn't decide to go with a heavy goblin theme.
Some other comments...
35 lands doesn't look enough, especially since we can't count Temple of the False God, and then you play the 4 fetch lands to also thin the deck, and I don't see Sol Ring or Mana Crypt either. How do you make this work? You must be playing with free partial paris mulligan or something lol, I would never go under 36 mana-producing land (not counting Temple since it doesn't produce mana in your opener), and I'm sitting at 37 right now and still manage to miss land drops sometimes. I wouldn't play Temple with anything under 38-39 lands and that's if I'm playing a couple of tutors like Expedition Map and Trinket Mage, or with 41-42 lands maybe (and even then, it makes a starting hand so much worse when it's your 2nd or 3rd land).
Really happy to see new Norin players, keep us updated on your list if you decide to build the deck, I really like to see new ideas or new versions of the deck too! The Elemental creature theme is something I would really like to see someday and I even saw someone building a Norin list with a Dragon theme into it, with all the recent dragons printed.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Wow, thank you for your elaborate analysis! Much appreciated!
No problem, I always appreciate newcomers to my thread, I don't have the visibility of a primer (and I don't plan to either, as French is my Mother tongue, my English level isn't good enough anyway).
With regards to the palladium myr /worn powerstone debate, I think I'll stick with the myr for now. But if anything I may put the Honor-worn Shaku int there to give it another try
I think you're right about the Thousand-Year Elixir. Perhaps not as great as I envisioned it. I'll play a couple of games with a proxy and maybe substitute it later on.
There are a couple of situations where it will be extremely good (Moggcatcher) but it's a kind of a win-more card at this point already.
I have a Perilous Vaultcard lying around and I will give it a go, or at least take it out of the trade folder.
All is Dust and Oblivion Stone are fine too if you don't like exile. My best boardwipe currently is hands down Warp World, but you need. If you only play multiplayer, you may also let to another player the job of wiping the battlefield. Personally, since I'm playing in different playgroups most of the time, I noticed that most players have really poor deck building skills and won't have the appropriate answers in time.
Strongly agreeing with you on Mogg War Marshal. I'll replace it with the Beetleback chief as their abilities are almost the same but fits slightly better in the curve.
Dualcaster mage has yet to prove itself in this deck. I do believe I will, some game, get really good value out of her. Three mana isn't too bad either for an ETB creature that I can reuse. Time will tell if she stays in.
It's still the best Fork effect available for Norin, but I didn't say it's good. It's really meta dependant, if you have an opponent casting a turn 3 Cultivate every game, it's at least something to copy. Tooth and Nail is juicy but it doesn't always work (and don't forget you resolve the copy first, before your opponent).
You talked about more versatile cards than Sudden Demise. Care to elaborate? I just like to pick of some pesky flyers while keeping my gobbos out of range.
Pyrohemia is definitely one of the best card for this job because of its weird synergy with Norin. The trigger will go onto the stack but Norin will be back before it resolves, making the if conditional cause not true anymore and letting you keep it with no creatures besides Norin on the battlefield. But if you are really into non-repeatable damage, Bonfire of the Damned is an option (especially with Sensei's Divining Top). Rolling Earthquake seems better in multiplayer since it hits everything (and players, which is really important in a deck like Norin where non-combat damage is your main kill). Molten Disaster if you are into split second. Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction are the other strong options that come to my mind, but personally, I would stick with either Pyrohemia or Rolling Earthquake since it hits the players, can force the game into a draw, and is good with all the incremental damage that Norin plays.
Regarding the land base. You hit the nail on that one. It is a major concern. Playing 36 lands is a bit of a gamble. I do run some mana rocks (everflowing chalice,mind stone,sol ring,iron myr,palladium myr,solemn simulacrum,grinning ingus(if you take it into consideration) and a caged sun/gauntlet of power(late game). The reason I run the fetches is to filter out the deck (as you have stated), to shuffle my deck to maximize on my sensei's diving top, and if I have my crucible of worlds in play I'm sure I don't miss a land drop (although it's not a guarantee).
It's really hard to make a cut atm. Still have to playtest it a bit more. I'm not disagreeing with your statement on temple of the false god, although for the time being I think I still prefer it above a terrain generator in this deck. Cavern of soulswould make an excellent addition albeit a bit pricy. And yes....I know...why are you running the fetchlands then I hear you ask? I've got two of them from Khans and I'm assuming I'll have the two enemy fetches after I draft the ***** out of Battle for Zendikar
And yes, the mountains are snow-covered My bad.
I'm pretty sure I saw 35 in your list earlier. Now I see 36, but I only count 35 mana-producing lands in an opening hand since I don't count Temple of the False God. You could just play Ancient Tomb if you don't mind spending a little bit more money, but note that this is banned under the 1v1 banlist (Strip Mine also is, and I play Ghost Quarter instead because you can strip one of you own non-basic to get a Mountain and trigger Valakut). About Terrain Generator... one good reason to play it in this deck and not in my other mono-colored decks is the Wheel of Fortune effet. I play like 5 of them (Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, Memory Jar, Chandra Ablaze or even just Commune with Lava. There are times where you reveal 5 lands and 2 spells and you are just happy to play 1 land and cheat another one immediatly, especially when you start to chain wheel effects. The other really strong reason to play Terrain Generator is Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. I play Thespian's Stage for this reason too. Being able to cheat a mountain during your opponent's turn makes a huge difference. And Norin likes to ramp, as I said.
On a side note. I'm thinking of making an alternate mono-red deck to switch on occasions. One that fits the theme and doesn't require me to build all the way from scratch. So far I'm considering Feldon and Purphoros (maybe Daretti). Feldon just oozes with flavor but it seems hard to protect (same goes for Daretti). Has anyone here considered building a side deck for 1v1 use? I feel Norin is more of a +3 player deck.
To be honest, I'm playing this deck since a couple of years already and I've been doing really great in 1v1. It's definitely better than my mono-blue deck currently (morph creatures are so slow), while my black deck has a little bit more consistency due to having more tutors.
1v1 also means less ways to deal with Purphoros and Norin. This is a pretty fast clock if you play with 30 life instead of 40 life, and even if you still play at 40 life, this deck can do 40 damage pretty quickly. Moggcatcher can one shot a single player from nowhere if you have 6 mana at the end of your opponent's turn.
The deck is doing great in 1v1. If you wish to try different generals, Purphoros is obviously the most suited 2nd general but Purphoros players play a completely different list with all the sorcery-speed token generators. Kiki-Jiki and Squee aren't really good as generals for my current list. Daretti can do fine. Feldon is meh.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So people said this is fake, then they said it might be real... whatever. I'm still pretty excited for Magic Origins. If this card is real (it could also be some earlier version of the final card), it's definitely not great, BUT... the way it is worded could make a huge difference with Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. You still need to active her ability since there is no triggered ability on the actual spoiler, but I have a couple of tools to grant her haste. Not being able to ping creatures is definitely a downside.
Looking at the planeswalker side, her +1 is really average, her -2 is probably even worse, while the emblems should be game-winning (and we are getting here in 3 turns). I definitely prefer Koth of the Hammer since he has an immediate impact with the 2 first abilities being relevant and the emblem being even better.
We will see when we get the final and definitive spoiler of the red legend/planeswalker, I don't think it will be good enough, but who knows.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I got told to tune down the power level of my decks tonight lol. Game 1 was Norin, Chamber and Purphoros. GG a couple of turns later. Game 2 was reaaaally long, until I casted Commune with Lava for 5 cards, into Gamble into Confusion in the Ranks... couple of turns later, Warp World with 27 permanents (opponents had 10, 12 and one had 19 if I recall correctly) for the win.
I guess it really depends on playgroups, but some people don't really like seeing cards like Imperial Recruiter and Gauntlet of Might. Even if I tell them that I'm playing a tier-2-ish general, using both banlists (so no Sol Ring), no infinite combos... they don't like it. They turn 1 Sol Ring into Signet into Marath (or any big tier-1 general) and complain. That's surprising.
The only thing I ever complain about in multiplayer is infinite combos. In 1v1, I will not play against a turn 1 Crypt/Sol Ring because I'm already too far behind and this is why I use both banlists to build my decks (I'm playing mono-red, I already start with a strike since I can't tutor fast mana on turn 1, so it prety much comes to who gets the better draw). Whatever.
There were some ongoing discussions about dash creatures on Gaka's thread but sadly, none of the printed dash creature seems good enough to make the cut.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That's pretty weird. I've never had any complains when I win with Norin since most players usually have fun even when they lose against the deck. Even with cards like Imp Recruiter and gauntlet and in my case Mana Crypt, the overall cost of the deck tends to be lower than most 3cmc decks i see. Don't really see what the issue is when our decks have like 2 conditional tutors when others have a gazillion or so.
That's pretty weird. I've never had any complains when I win with Norin since most players usually have fun even when they lose against the deck. Even with cards like Imp Recruiter and gauntlet and in my case Mana Crypt, the overall cost of the deck tends to be lower than most 3cmc decks i see. Don't really see what the issue is when our decks have like 2 conditional tutors when others have a gazillion or so.
2 players were playing with precon, that was probably the real issue...
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So they printed Chandra's parents: Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Flavorwise, it's awesome, I love it. This card has pros and cons:
Pros:
4 mana for 3 creatures
1/1 flying tokens
Repeatable sac fodder for artifacts (I play 19 artifacts + Feldon, with this that would be 19+2)
Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter
Cons:
Not a goblin, so no Moggcatcher or Assassin shenanigans
Won't ever tutor this with Recruiter, except if I desperatly need flyers
I usually don't hardcast Goblin Marshal, I just tutor it with Moggcatcher, and it represents 5 creatures in 1 card (even more than Siege-Gang)
Siege-Gang Commander is overall a better card, 3 tokens for 1 more mana and only 2 to sac
It's definitely worth considerations, it has nice synergy with Welder or artifacts I steal with Confusion. I think it goes in the same spot as Goblin Marshal. I rarely hardcast this one, I just use it when I'm going to win with Moggcatcher, if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone and I need a couple of goblins for a big Krenko+Chieftain swing (after I've already got Kiki-Jiki, too). Also, I search for Marshal in response to a board wipe since I'm still left with 2 tokens. So yeah, the Nalaar family is certainly different, but it adds something different to the deck.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The more I think about it, the more I don't think I will play it. I'll stick with the goblin theme as much as possible, even if Norin is a non-goblin general. Goblins are plan B, and I always like to have a plan B.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
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Anyway if you don't like how some cards are just staples then I get it. It bothers me too sometimes that you try so hard to make your deck creative and then sort of realize there's a reason that basically every blue deck plays Consecrated Sphinx and you're pretty much just neutering yourself by playing that other guy instead. SDT is definitely one of those cards. Maybe it would be better to just ban SDT, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls and all the other cards that get put in almost every single deck without question. I could probably get on board with that. But until they do not playing them is just giving everyone else a free leg up unless your whole group agrees with your philosophy. I play for fun but I still like to win sometimes.
And I didn't mean to suggest that you were cheap. I know how expensive Imperial Recruiter and some of those other cards are because I grimaced my way through buying them as well. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) that doesn't make it any easier the next time you have convince yourself to shell out $30 for a piece of cardboard. Especially one wizards originally decided was an uncommon, then its not even a rare piece of cardboard
SDT, while a good card, has no concrete synergy with the deck.
I like the example of Consecrated Sphinx, because it's the perfect card that everyone hates to see in the format and they usually has no specific synergy with the decks it's played in. Take my Ixidor morph deck. Would the Sphinx be bad? I don't think it could ever be bad. But is it good? Does it help me towards my gameplan? Is it actually part of my game plan or me theme? Not at all. It just totally sucks, IMO. It's probably better than Bident of Thassa, but it doesn't have any synergy or flavor, and that's something important for me in the format. If it wasn't, I would just play 60 counterspells with Talrand and 39 lands and I may actually have a higher win percentage than what I have with Ixidor or Norin currently. But I would probably quit playing Magic after 30 minutes...
I'm not completely prisoner of the flavor or my decks' themes but I always take it into consider when I decide to play something like Tuktuk Scraper instead of Manic Vandal for example. It's not only because I have Moggcatcher, it's just more on-theme. Imperial Recruiter isn't a goblin but does something really relevant in my gameplan: it gets me Moggcatcher, Kiki-Jiki or specific creatures for specific situations (Scrapper and Assassin mostly). SDT doesn't do any of this.
This is why at the end Drum and Mind Stone end up being better than SDT for me: these cards do something related to the game plan and in the case of Springleaf Drum, it has a really specific synergy with my general. SDT doesn't. Consecrated Sphinx doesn't either. I would call the Sphinx a filler, especially when you are not playing on a competitive level. And even at a high-competitive level, I'm pretty sure there are better 6-CMC spells that can make you win.
Finally, I just want to say that while building a deck without such staple fillers is definitely a challenge, it is also rewarding, because despite all the arguments you made for SDT, I am totally convinced that my deck wouldn't be better (on a win% ratio or whatever unit you use to calculate this) with SDT in my list, for all the reasons I stated. I actually don't plan to play SDT in any of my deck. I think SDT is just the easy and lazy choice, there will always be better cards doing something more related to the gameplan or at least giving you card advantage (which Top doesn't). If you are playing Lin Sivvi as your general then yes, you get a really huge value of Top and Scrollcrack, but that's a different matter.
(Sorry for all the typos, there are a lot but I'm on my phone right now.)
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So no change for now.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
i really like the justification for the rule change (i'm being sarcastic). tuck was in the opinion of the commitee only present in blue and white (forgetting it was in green as well for enchantments and red for all permanents, but you know) so every deck had to have access to those colors (...really any besides black) to deal with problem commanders.
now the only way to deal with problem commanders is stax (yawn) or countering. yay, every colour could counter a blue commander (maybe except green, but i wouldn't be so sure)!
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Red actually has a couple of theft effect too but usually just until EOT.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
the enchantments are answers if you can put them in play without playing them, like you do with zur or by blinking them with venser. warp world works too if i'm not mistaken.
helm of possession nails it for monored anyway, all the other creature steal are way better in, say, marchesa or brion stoutarm.
i, for one, just added to my norin both red elemental blast and pyroblast.
That's what Arcane Lighthouse is for Also it's not like Chaos Warp was any better at hitting those generals. Terminus and Hallowed Burial took a major blow but fortunately that's not our problem. And it's not like its that huge of a blow anyway, Terminus is still amazing because of the one mana miracle wipe and both are still pretty darn powerful since they stop recursion tricks too.
I also added Perilous Vault and O-Stone to my list, with also Mogg Infestation, just to be sure to deal with whatever is on the battlefield. Shroud generals will always be a problem because they come back the turn after but hey, that's part of the format (especially now). Even non-Hexproof generals come back the turn after... and we are playing one of the most resilient general in the format in Norin, he dodges any removal spell (spot or mass), any combat trick and is cheap to play anyway.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Would you believe me if i told you that i had confusion in the ranks out and didn't notice i could target hexproofed stuff my opponents had? you absolutely made my day.
But yeah, against Uril for example, you just want to trade Confusion with an aura, then you can just trade Norin with Uril at EOT hehe. Be prepared to show the CR for Hexproof though since most opponents won't believe you, but it's really clear: Hexproof means that it can't be targeted by spells or abilities your opponent controls. The player who controls Confusion in the Ranks is subject to get his Hexproof (but not shroud) creatures being targeted. Not to say that if a shroud creature would enter the battlefield, he would have to trade also (Confusion doesn't target the creature entering the battlefield).
See this like Evangelize. Even if the opponent actually chooses which creature the spell targets, he can't choose one if his Hexproof creature because the spell is controlled by one of his opponent, thus making targetting an Hexproof creature an illegal action.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Crosis, Wheeler and Dealer!
Kaervek the Merciless
Krenko, Like a BAU55
Ashling
Jor Kadeen
Kreshin
Marton
Alesha, budget grin
It did well for me everytime I resolved it, honestly. The thing is, I have a lot of permanents or cards that generate multiple permanents (Chamber and Battlesphere for example), so that helps a lot to both generate card advantage before resolving it but also after, because of the really high winning-enchantment count. If you reveal Purphoros, he enters at the same time as every creature, which is usually enough to kill every opponent; for the other enchantments, although they enter the battlefield after the creatures as per Warp World text, I usually get a lot of value still because of ETB triggers of cards like Siege-Gang or Chamber like I said.
This deck only needs one or two good enchantments with a couple of triggers to win and Warp World usually makes it happen all at once: you get the enchantments but you also get all the ETB triggers you need at the same time.
That's for offensive scenarios, because I also play this card defensively when I really need to get rid of something. Even if that specific card is revealed again by my opponent in the resolution of Warp World, chances are good that I also reveal O-Stone, P-Vault or Confusion, which will usually get rid of any problem on the battlefield anyway. 83 cards out of 99 are entering the battlefield with Warp World, and if we remove Warp World itself, that's actually 83 out of 98 (3 planeswalkers, 4 instant and 8 sorceries don't ETB). That's nearly a 85% hit rate, which is also something I must consider when adding or removing cards in the deck.
I usually don't care too much about what my opponents reveal, TBH. And it's always really fun to resolve, obviously. The fun factor is probably even more important ;p.
So, scenario 1: late game, every player has 12-15 permanents, you have 20-22 because of tokens or something else but you are not yet winning because your opponents do have a defense or you don't have a key enchantment. You cast Warp World and you probably win before the end of turn.
Scenario 2: you are losing, you don't have a lot of board presence, something like 8-12 permaments, your opponents have as many as you but better permanents or control on the board, so you cast Warp World... one or two players will reveal 4-5 sorceries and will be left with not much (or no land) while you will get anything from your deck, which might be lands or other permanents (hopefully a little bit of both, but it may be unbalanced). You saved yourself from death and you basically restarted the game but you should still have a slight edge depending on what your opponents are playing (obviously, in that situation, you care a little bit more about what your opponents reveal).
Blue decks usually play a lot of non-permanent cards. Black too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I'm going to give you another response because I got to use Warp World yesterday in an epic 4-player game.
I was playing against Animar, Scion and a RG general that I don't even know the name and I had really a bad board position with nothing but lands and Trading Post. My opponents wiped the board a couple of times and I was doing mostly nothing so far in that game if not playing my land drops every turn.
I finally draw some action with Memory Jar, which ended up milling 14 cards since I got 5 lands and a Wheel of Fortune (that I decided to play with Terrain Generator and a Mountain) and I did mill a couple of enchantments there (I never draw any big enchantment in that game).
Until I finally draw Word of Seizing. Dear God, is it a good card. Mostly just lands on the battlefield for everyone (I had Goats from Trading Post) except the Animar player who had Animar and a Lifeblood Hydra with 7 counters and High Market untapped just in case. You can't imagine how good that felt... stealing that Hydra at split second, attacking with it, and saccing it to Trading Post to get back my Gauntlet of Power. The feeling... awww.
Anyway, I drew Gamble and 6 really random cards not helping me at all, so in my 2nd main phase, I Gambled and looked at my deck (half of it was in the graveyard), I had 12 permanents on the battlefield and my opponents all had a similar number (from 9 to 12). I was losing no matter what (or that's what I thought) because I couldn't match the power-level of Scion, so I decided that I was here to have fun and have some kind of impact in that game and got Warp World, which, after drawing 7, I didn't discard to Gamble. I tapped out (after Gauntlet of Power) and played it.
How can Warp World completely change a game? My opponents didn't whiff: they revealed a lot of really huge permanents but almost no lands (2-3 lands max). I got 5 lands to work with, Wurmcoil Engine, Goblin Bombardment, Perilous Vault and a couple of irrelevant spells that got shuffled to the bottom of my deck.
My opponents had all sort of ETB triggers with Duplicant, Avenger of Zendikar, big dragons, etc... and all I did is sac my board to Goblin Bombardment, and, in response to Wurmcoil death's trigger, activated Perilous Vault. My opponents were left with 2-3 lands each (Goblin Bombardment actually killed the Animar player) and I had 2 Wurm tokens with 4 lands left (one got destroyed after Warp World). My opponents never got any lands and I drew Koth and went to town with my Wurms and my 4/4 Mountain. What a game it was...
This is how Warp World can go in a totally defensive situation (I should call this the desperate mode). This is how it can change a game, even against big fat dragons and big fat Animar deck. This is how I won a game I was losing no matter what else I had played. And that felt really good. And everyone was good sport about it, they were pretty impressed about Norin winning this game, since I did totally nothing before that to really be a threat. Totally out of nowhere and unexpected.
This is why I play Warp World, and this is why I love this format.
And the most spectacular thing about this game is that I played no Norin engine at all besides Springleaf Drum. The only enchantments I ever got on the battlefield was Goblin Bombardment out of Warp World before it got exiled with Perilous Vault. Wurm tokens and Koth, that's all you need.
And this is why both Word of Seizing and Warp World will never ever get cut from this deck.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
First 7:mountain, helm of possession, mana crypt, kher keep, mountain, outpost siege, haunted fengraf
Draw for turn: stranglehold
Turn 1 norin, turn 2 stranglehold, turn 3 outpost siege. By turn 6 I have warstorm surge and ogre battledriver in play. .fun times
Any deck can have sick openings with Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Don't worry, Pandemonium isn't needed anymore with all the different enchantments they printed for us. It's a double-edged sword.
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
There are a couple of things to take into account here. A 3-cmc artifact that taps for 2 has more value than a 2-cmc artifact that taps for 1. Creatures are also more vulnerable than non-creature artifacts. This is my argument to play Worn Powerstone over Palladium Myr: a little bit harder to destroy since it doesn't have 2 super types.
Also, looking at my curve right now, from 1 to 6 mana, I have respectively 8, 8, 12, 18, 10 and 5 spells. I can pretty much say that the best cards in this deck are in the 4, 5 and 6-cmc slots. 2-CMC ramp like Iron Myr gets me to 4 mana on turn 3, and I have 18 spells at 4 mana. That's huge. Pandemonium, Outpost Siege and Aftershock can all be really strong turn 3. Solemn Simulacrum and Gauntlet of Might are pretty much the best turn 3 you can have with this deck. When playing 1v1, Goblin Settler can be added to this list.
3-CMC ramp like Worn Powerstone gets me to 6 mana on turn 4. I can pretty much play everything in my deck this way. Grinning Ignus, Honor-Worn Shaku and Springleaf Drum are the only other ramp I run, besides the 2 Gauntlets (mana doublers). Drum is even better than any 2-CMC ramp because of Norin, but we still need the first 2 turns to set it up properly (since we can't play both Norin and Drum on turn 1). Shaku... okay, this is SLIGHTLY better than Worn Powerstone. Grinning Ignus is basically a delayed Dark Ritual with the possibility of having a lot of ETB/LTB triggers.
I think this deck likes to ramp. But we are playing mono-red. We don't ramp as much as green. But we still do.
Now that I established that we want to play the 4-5-6 cmc spells as fast as possible (or even a turn 6 Warp World after a turn 2 Genesis Chamber can be game-winning, you know), I don't think I can remove any of the ramp I'm actually playing.
Finally, if Worn Powerstone is better than Palladium Myr, why isn't Fire Diamond better than Iron Myr? 3 things to consider. 3 tiny details: Anger, Myr Battlesphere and Kiki-Jiki. It can make a difference, and in the case of a 2-CMC ramp (for +1 mana), I think it's worth the risk: if my opponent spends removal on Iron Myr or if it gets removed in a board wipe, I'm fine with it. It's different in the case of Worn Powerstone/Palladium Myr, since I don't think it's worth it anymore. Creatures die a lot more in this format than artifacts. 3-CMC, +2 ramp like Worn Powerstone is more valuable.
It works with 7 creatures in your list, which is definitely not enough for me to consider it. It's not bad when you have one of the 7 creatures, but that's just 1 card in your deck that you can't tutor.
Exile isn't really a big problem, it's actually something good since I don't play Relic of Progenitus anymore. Perilous Vault can get rid of anything, which is usually hard to do in mono-red. I do play Vandalblast and Tuktuk Scrapper too for artifacts, which you don't. Mono-red is the best color to deal with artifacts, your meta must be really light on artifacts to not play those cards. Vedalken Shackles is so strong in this format.
I totally disagree on that one. Honor-Worn Shaku is Sol Ring. It's slightly better than Worn Powerstone in this deck. And I see you play Mind's Eye. Those 2 cards go well together. In a 4 player game, you get to untap the Shaku 4 times. Don't forget that Purphoros can untap it too, even if not a creature (I'm running a couple of other legends too, of course).
I agree!
I actually play Goblin Marshal instead of Beetleback Chief (Gaka plays the latter). The thing is, most of the time, I don't want it on turn 4 anyway, I usually tutor it up with Moggcatcher to get Goblin Assassin triggers or just to win with Krenko and a ton of goblins. The big Marshal represents 5 goblins, Bettleback Chief gives you 3 goblins, and the little Mogg War Marshal also gives you 3 goblins. I just did the maths with Warp World, Purphoros, Impact Tremors, Goblin Bombardment and Outpost Siege and... well. Even with Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium, if you do the maths... Beetleback Chief doesn't have a lot of advantages, besides not being a 6-CMC spell I guess (but I rarely hardcast Goblin Marshal, that makes me feel unhappy, and that would be the same thing with Beetleback Chief, there are so many better things we can do with 4 or 6 mana with this deck, so since it's usually a Moggcatcher thing for me (with Krenko and Kiki-Jiki, if Siege-Gang Commander (producing 4 goblins) is already gone and I want to overrun my opponents with goblins or with ETB triggers), the mana cost doesn't mind as much).
Those are personal choices, really strong cards for sure, you can't really go wrong. Planar Chaos is something I should try someday, I just don't like how random it is, but I totally see why people enjoy playing it.
It's definitely the best Fork for Norin, with Kiki-Jiki, Feldon and Imperial Recruiter. I used to play Reiterate (good with Warp World if you have 14 mana to start with) but I removed all the copy effects since then.
I personally don't like Sudden Demise, there are better and more versatile cards to do a similar effect in mono-red.
Can't argue with you on that one, I would definitely play it if I didn't decide to go with a heavy goblin theme.
Some other comments...
35 lands doesn't look enough, especially since we can't count Temple of the False God, and then you play the 4 fetch lands to also thin the deck, and I don't see Sol Ring or Mana Crypt either. How do you make this work? You must be playing with free partial paris mulligan or something lol, I would never go under 36 mana-producing land (not counting Temple since it doesn't produce mana in your opener), and I'm sitting at 37 right now and still manage to miss land drops sometimes. I wouldn't play Temple with anything under 38-39 lands and that's if I'm playing a couple of tutors like Expedition Map and Trinket Mage, or with 41-42 lands maybe (and even then, it makes a starting hand so much worse when it's your 2nd or 3rd land).
I assume the Mountains are Snow-Covered Mountains (Scrying Sheets).
Really happy to see new Norin players, keep us updated on your list if you decide to build the deck, I really like to see new ideas or new versions of the deck too! The Elemental creature theme is something I would really like to see someday and I even saw someone building a Norin list with a Dragon theme into it, with all the recent dragons printed.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I mean, you can't go wrong by playing either Iron Myr, Palladium Myr, Fire Diamond or Worn Powerstone, but I tried to give a rational argument about why I do play Iron Myr and Worn Powerstone and not the 2 others. For me, everything is in the tiniest details.
There are a couple of situations where it will be extremely good (Moggcatcher) but it's a kind of a win-more card at this point already.
All is Dust and Oblivion Stone are fine too if you don't like exile. My best boardwipe currently is hands down Warp World, but you need. If you only play multiplayer, you may also let to another player the job of wiping the battlefield. Personally, since I'm playing in different playgroups most of the time, I noticed that most players have really poor deck building skills and won't have the appropriate answers in time.
It's still the best Fork effect available for Norin, but I didn't say it's good. It's really meta dependant, if you have an opponent casting a turn 3 Cultivate every game, it's at least something to copy. Tooth and Nail is juicy but it doesn't always work (and don't forget you resolve the copy first, before your opponent).
Pyrohemia is definitely one of the best card for this job because of its weird synergy with Norin. The trigger will go onto the stack but Norin will be back before it resolves, making the if conditional cause not true anymore and letting you keep it with no creatures besides Norin on the battlefield. But if you are really into non-repeatable damage, Bonfire of the Damned is an option (especially with Sensei's Divining Top). Rolling Earthquake seems better in multiplayer since it hits everything (and players, which is really important in a deck like Norin where non-combat damage is your main kill). Molten Disaster if you are into split second. Blasphemous Act and Chain Reaction are the other strong options that come to my mind, but personally, I would stick with either Pyrohemia or Rolling Earthquake since it hits the players, can force the game into a draw, and is good with all the incremental damage that Norin plays.
I'm pretty sure I saw 35 in your list earlier. Now I see 36, but I only count 35 mana-producing lands in an opening hand since I don't count Temple of the False God. You could just play Ancient Tomb if you don't mind spending a little bit more money, but note that this is banned under the 1v1 banlist (Strip Mine also is, and I play Ghost Quarter instead because you can strip one of you own non-basic to get a Mountain and trigger Valakut). About Terrain Generator... one good reason to play it in this deck and not in my other mono-colored decks is the Wheel of Fortune effet. I play like 5 of them (Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, Memory Jar, Chandra Ablaze or even just Commune with Lava. There are times where you reveal 5 lands and 2 spells and you are just happy to play 1 land and cheat another one immediatly, especially when you start to chain wheel effects. The other really strong reason to play Terrain Generator is Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle. I play Thespian's Stage for this reason too. Being able to cheat a mountain during your opponent's turn makes a huge difference. And Norin likes to ramp, as I said.
To be honest, I'm playing this deck since a couple of years already and I've been doing really great in 1v1. It's definitely better than my mono-blue deck currently (morph creatures are so slow), while my black deck has a little bit more consistency due to having more tutors.
1v1 also means less ways to deal with Purphoros and Norin. This is a pretty fast clock if you play with 30 life instead of 40 life, and even if you still play at 40 life, this deck can do 40 damage pretty quickly. Moggcatcher can one shot a single player from nowhere if you have 6 mana at the end of your opponent's turn.
The deck is doing great in 1v1. If you wish to try different generals, Purphoros is obviously the most suited 2nd general but Purphoros players play a completely different list with all the sorcery-speed token generators. Kiki-Jiki and Squee aren't really good as generals for my current list. Daretti can do fine. Feldon is meh.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So people said this is fake, then they said it might be real... whatever. I'm still pretty excited for Magic Origins. If this card is real (it could also be some earlier version of the final card), it's definitely not great, BUT... the way it is worded could make a huge difference with Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge. You still need to active her ability since there is no triggered ability on the actual spoiler, but I have a couple of tools to grant her haste. Not being able to ping creatures is definitely a downside.
Looking at the planeswalker side, her +1 is really average, her -2 is probably even worse, while the emblems should be game-winning (and we are getting here in 3 turns). I definitely prefer Koth of the Hammer since he has an immediate impact with the 2 first abilities being relevant and the emblem being even better.
We will see when we get the final and definitive spoiler of the red legend/planeswalker, I don't think it will be good enough, but who knows.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I guess it really depends on playgroups, but some people don't really like seeing cards like Imperial Recruiter and Gauntlet of Might. Even if I tell them that I'm playing a tier-2-ish general, using both banlists (so no Sol Ring), no infinite combos... they don't like it. They turn 1 Sol Ring into Signet into Marath (or any big tier-1 general) and complain. That's surprising.
The only thing I ever complain about in multiplayer is infinite combos. In 1v1, I will not play against a turn 1 Crypt/Sol Ring because I'm already too far behind and this is why I use both banlists to build my decks (I'm playing mono-red, I already start with a strike since I can't tutor fast mana on turn 1, so it prety much comes to who gets the better draw). Whatever.
There were some ongoing discussions about dash creatures on Gaka's thread but sadly, none of the printed dash creature seems good enough to make the cut.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Norin the Wary (BRB) R
Blind Seer (Hose Everything) U
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy (Double Dipping) UBR
Borborygmos Enraged (Crush Mountains, Eat Forests) GR
Kresh the Bloodbraided (Get Wild) GRB
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (Test Your Math) WUR
Toshiro Umezawa (Instant Reanimation) B
Dralnu, Lich Lord (Mill then Will) UB
Rakdos the Defiler (Death at any Cost) BR
Iwamori of the Open Fist (Wheel and Deal) G
Crovax, Ascendant Hero (Balancing Eggs) W
2 players were playing with precon, that was probably the real issue...
Warp World was a bit complicated to resolve too (Genesis Chamber + ~10-12 independant triggers).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Flavorwise, it's awesome, I love it. This card has pros and cons:
Pros:
4 mana for 3 creatures
1/1 flying tokens
Repeatable sac fodder for artifacts (I play 19 artifacts + Feldon, with this that would be 19+2)
Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter
Cons:
Not a goblin, so no Moggcatcher or Assassin shenanigans
Won't ever tutor this with Recruiter, except if I desperatly need flyers
I usually don't hardcast Goblin Marshal, I just tutor it with Moggcatcher, and it represents 5 creatures in 1 card (even more than Siege-Gang)
Siege-Gang Commander is overall a better card, 3 tokens for 1 more mana and only 2 to sac
It's definitely worth considerations, it has nice synergy with Welder or artifacts I steal with Confusion. I think it goes in the same spot as Goblin Marshal. I rarely hardcast this one, I just use it when I'm going to win with Moggcatcher, if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone and I need a couple of goblins for a big Krenko+Chieftain swing (after I've already got Kiki-Jiki, too). Also, I search for Marshal in response to a board wipe since I'm still left with 2 tokens. So yeah, the Nalaar family is certainly different, but it adds something different to the deck.
What do you think?
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.