Finally decided to pull the trigger and subscribe to the forums to post my current decks. This is one of my favorite commander deck so far, which was built around Gaka's Primer with a slightly different theme. This deck is all about anti-control and chaos while running a decent amount of Goblins, Myrs, artifacts and global enchantments. Let's start with my decklist:
I might add some details about the card choises I've made while playing this deck. There are a lot of way to win, basically any of the enchantments may be enough with Norin to win. Without Norin, there is a really nice Goblin package. Having a Moggcatcher in play with 6 mana available at the end of your opponent's turn might be enough to win the game at your next combat phase.
Another way to win is just to resolve a Warp World. You should end up with a big board advantage if you have been able to get some tokens on the battlefield. It's even better if you can Fork it.
M14 adds up to the package with Strionic Resonator, but Knowledge Pool was prefered instead. It still allows some of the best enchantments to be even better: stack the right side with Possibility Storm when you cast spells and the other (wrong) side when your opponents do. You get to play their spells, and you get to play 2 spells for 1 while they don't.
The deck is still well playable if you ever to lose Norin (which never happens anyway). Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a suitable commander for this deck too as it is a lot about ETB triggers.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Some modifications to my decklist, don't forget to look at Gaka's primer!
Adding Purphoros with Theros, some more lands (34 wasn't enough for me) and also decided to make this list legal on both banlists (which means no Sol Ring and no Ancient Tomb for me).
Zealous Conscript has been removed from my list too for the lack of synergy with him (no tutor except Gamble) and the fact that I just decided to remove any infinite combo possibility (Zealous goes infinite with Kiki-Jiki). Also added Mindslaver, I know that in duel it can be a near-infinite combo but it's harder to pull off and usually don't work well in multiplayer games. I will probably remove it as soon as I get something more interesting to add.
I consider the deck is still a budget build with nothing more expansive than ~30$ except for Gauntlet of Might but I actually play with the collector edition instead of the real one.
What I would really like is some more efficient way to spend all the mana that can be produced with Gauntlets and Caged Sun. However, I don't like X spells because of Possibility Storm. Maybe some ability with X or an ability that could be activated multiple times. Hammer of Purphoros could work.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I had him before, but I'm not sure this deck runs enough creatures/goblins. He's good at what he's doing but I would prefer Blasphemous Act over it (even if Marshal is more tutorable).
If playing it, I would add the full goblin package with a more comboish version of the deck. My own version is still more tribal than Gaka's primer though (all creatures are either Goblin or Myr or it must have a HIGH synergy with the whole deck, like Norin and Porphoros).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Decided to go with the new Hammer of Purphoros, it solves a few problems with the deck. We need haste, we need flash creatures and we also need a way to spend all the mana that can be generated with Gauntlets and Caged Sun.
With 2 Gauntlets out, every land turns into:
{T}, sacrifice this: Put a 3/3 Golemn Enchantment on the battlefield.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Play tested a lot. Purphoros is incredible, really hard to deal with because he usually doesn't turn into a creature until you play Kiki-Jiki, which is another really big treat of this deck by its own. In a 4-player game, Purphoros will get all the hate it deserves, but your opponents won't be able to deal with it without Chaos Warp or similar effects. It deals at least 60 damage overall to your opponents every game you get it, which is kind of a treat (if Norin is ere obviously, it is 8 damage for every whole turn assuming Norin blinks every time).
The Hammer is great and has great synergy with the deck but I don't think it deserves a spot in the list. I will play Cloudstone Curio instead.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Turn 1 Faithless Looting (pitch Mountain and Myr Battlesphere)
Turn 2 Mindstone
Turn 3 Gauntlet of Might
Turn 4 Purphoros, Ogre Battledriver, Welder (Purphoros does 4).
You see what's happening next? Welder brings back Battlesphere (thanks to Battledriver for haste). Purphoros does 10. Battlesphere attacks for 6 and each tokens for 3. That's 18 more damage. 32 damage total and that's w/o Norin. My opponent scooped, he was playing Child of Alara. What an amazing start.
In the meantime, I swapped out Conjurer's Closet for Imperial Recruiter. More consistency, and Closet is kind of a win-more card, you already need winning conditions, it does nothing by itself. Also, I added Knowledge Pool. This card is amazing with Possibility Storm (depending on the order you put the triggers on the stack, players get to play 1 or 2 spells! who said red can't compete on card advantage?)
Finally, Grinning Ignus is replacing Grim Monolith. It's strictly better as it does the same ramp job, is reusable, is better with Purphoros... and not banned, obviously now that Monolith is. Radiate is also out, and then the Resonator (replaced by K-Pool).
Just received my altered Norin, updated the OP. There are a few other minor changes. I swapped out Caged Sun for Worn Powerstone (better early game), added Rummaging Goblin (discard outlet that can be tutored with Moggcatcher, Matron, Recruiter).
The next card I could cut is Lightning Greaves, I don't think it does enough in this deck, I have Battledriver, Anger and Chieftain already. Just need something good to replace it with. I will try to find something better. Helm of Possession could be that card, I find out the deck lacks ways to deal with creatures. This is like Vedalken Shackes but for red, and it is a sacrifice outlet for some artifact creatures with Welder out or just Anger. Also, Blood Moon is back.
Edit: Decided to swap Greaves for Helm, going to playtest this card again, I didn't like it too much years ago in this deck but I think I have to give it a new try because it's a really good way to deal with the most problematic creatures (or those with Sword of Fire and Ice). Norin is always ready to be sacrified too. Nykthos is also replacing Thawing Glaciers now.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
To clarify the combo, since its not immediately obvious:
Play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Play Lightning Crafter; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Lightning Crafter.
Resolve Kiki-Jiki ability, put a Lightning Crafter copy into play; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Lightning Crafter copy to deal 3 damage
Resolve Champion trigger from Lightning Crafter copy; exile Kiki-Jiki.
Sacrifice the Lightning Crafter copy; put Kiki-Jiki back into play.
Lather, rinse, repeat
Play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Play Lightning Crafter; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Lightning Crafter.
Resolve Kiki-Jiki ability, put a Lightning Crafter copy into play; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Resolve Champion trigger from Lightning Crafter copy; exile Kiki-Jiki.
Tap Lightning Crafter copy to deal 3 damage to itself
Lightning Crafter copy goes to the graveard; put Kiki-Jiki back into play.
Lather, rinse, repeat
Okay I knew there was some sort of a combo with those two, but I thought it needed a sac outlet. I might use that in mine, since Lightning Crafter on its own does not seem bad either.
Okay I knew there was some sort of a combo with those two, but I thought it needed a sac outlet. I might use that in mine, since Lightning Crafter on its own does not seem bad either.
My bad. Yes it needs a sac outlet. I was referring to getting multiple ETB/dies triggers, which does not require a sac outlet but it does require a Pandemonium effect or a Vicious Shadows effect (which could also be a Goblin Sharpshooter, Stalking Vengance, or Rage Thrower)
Don't need a sac outlet if you have something to do with ETB triggers (Warstorm Surge).
Even though it's in my list, I hadn't been able to put my hands on a Judge Promo Imperial Recruiter before tonight. Finally had the chance to trade for one and I'm really happy. It's been great so far on MTGO too, it really add to the deck's consistency.
Overall, about Lightning Crafter... I tested out Changeling Berserker which has the extra benefit of having 5 power, being haste, and can save Moggcatcher from board wipes. However, I feel like Crafter is better overall, having access to Lightning Bolt on legs is more useful than you would think. I mostly use him for saving a creature when I have Moggcatcher in play, it's just a great toolbox creature because as soon as Moggcatcher starts doing its thing, you basically win if your opponent doesn't really quickly kill all of your creatures. Crafter is also good with ETB like Tuktuk Scrapper and the fact that he can kill himself is actually relevant if you don't have a sac outlet.
I'm not willing to add an infinite sac outlet like Ashnod Altar for combo purpose because I want all my "casual" / "fun" decks to be comboless-certified. In this case, it's the only infinite combo in the deck (since I removed Zealous Conscript for being too easy to win with) but it's really tricky to get there and really easy to disrupt, so I guess I can live with that but yeah, if you manage to assemble every parts (that's 3 cards, Kiki+Crafter+ETB)... you can instant kill everyone. It never happened to me before actually. Putting back Changeling Berserker would make this deck comboless-certified while still getting the job done I guess. I will think about that a little bit, I could completely swap that card for something else too.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
After a handful of games with Possibility Storm, it seems to help weaker opponent decks, not really helping me.
What are your thoughts on it?
Well, I got really different results from yours actually. It disrupts any blue deck pretty hard, turning their Counterspells into Brainstorms or their Fact or Fictions into Mana Drains. It's pretty much game over for them. Also, it combo well with Knowledge Pool.
Possibility Storm rewards good players that know their deck (i.e. have been playing with their deck for a long time). I could write my above list from scratch almost by heart because I've worked so much time on it, so I know exactly what's left in my deck when I cast a spell, I know what I want, and I will look what cards I flip and put onto the bottom of my deck since it gives me more information on what's on the top. If I play en enchantment and gets all sorceries but Warp World revealed and being shuffled on the bottom of my deck, I know what I will reveal with that nice Shattering Spree sitting in my hand (with the added bonus of getting the replicate trigger before it gets exiled and tucked).
And it's kind of a chaos card, which is something I really like about this deck. It doesn't win you the game, but it does help a lot if you know your own deck well, which my opponents don't (they're not taking that much time making threads on MTGS and brainstorming about their decks!). And you want to play it when you have cheap spells in your hand; being able to choose when it's good for you and when it's not is also key here.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Interesting, I'm still not sure how I feel about Possibility Storm but I can see what you mean about it nerfing blue for sure. And that is a neat trigger stack trick with Knowledge Pool if you can happen to get them both out. I have a couple questions for you though:
1. Given your stronger goblin theme, why no Goblin Warchief or Goblin King? The king's +1/+1 is always good and everyone's unblockable with Blood Moon out. And the warchief is cost reduction and haste, both good things as well.
2. Why Wurmcoil Engine? Just cause of its synergy with Goblin Welder? It's not a goblin and it's effect is ETG not ETB so it seems a bit out of place other than that.
3. I'm curious about some of the artifacts you took out from Gaka's build. You removed quite a few of the ones I thought were basically unremovable, they're so much fun to play in mine. I see your reasoning for Conjurer's Closet above, personally I love that card but I guess that's fine. But how come no Sculpting Steel or Tangle Wire?
4. After seeing your decklist I really think you should consider Scroll Rack. In fact given your focus on Possibility Storm I'm surprised to not see a lot more topdeck shenanigans in general. The rack is definitely the best though, 1, tap: put the big expensive spell you want to hit on top of your library, draw a card then play any cheap card that shares a card type with the one you put back. Sensei's Divining Top too, the ability to control the storm and know exactly which card type is most effective at that moment is really powerful. Even Crystal Ball isn't bad although I could understand keeping it to just the other two, the ball is definitely worse.
All in all your deck is definitely interesting. I'm a lot closer to Gaka's build right now but sometimes I feel a little lost sometimes when I play it. It's very good and can usually turn into something really scary very quickly but too often it seems like I'm waiting for a way to capitalize. In EDH looking scary is a bad position to be in unless you can quickly turn it into a win because no one can last long with 2-3 players aiming all their guns at you. I think the stronger goblin front is a good idea, it gives you a clear plan and win condition with pure creatures. I'll have to think about the storm and the rest of it some more.
1. Given your stronger goblin theme, why no Goblin Warchief or Goblin King? The king's +1/+1 is always good and everyone's unblockable with Blood Moon out. And the warchief is cost reduction and haste, both good things as well.
Well, there are 3 goblins that do a similar job. The 2 you listed and Goblin Chieftain. Haste is pertinent, +1/+1 is. The cost reduction isn't that much. Mountainwalk isn't either. That's why Chieftain ended up being in that spot. I don't need to have multiple time the same effects, if I'm going for a goblin kill, it will usually involve Goblin Matron or Moggcatcher in some way, which should get me Kiki-Jiki and something else. If I'm going that route, I will usually try to get a lot of goblins anyway, enough that Mountainwalk wouldn't matter. If my opponent doesn't play any mountain, it does nothing. I need Blood Moon out, which would be win more in this case. Not good enough. Warchief is a bit of a different case, I did consider it before but I only play 17 goblins right now, and 2 of them wouldn't be affected by the cost reduction (Goblin Welder and Warren Instigator), which makes the count to 15. Reducing the cost by 1 on 15 cards isn't that exciting in a deck that doesn't draw that many cards. We need a Wheel of Fortune to really get any benefit from this, but at this point, we usually play one enchantment instead and just start to win.
2. Why Wurmcoil Engine? Just cause of its synergy with Goblin Welder? It's not a goblin and it's effect is ETG not ETB so it seems a bit out of place other than that.
Well, not sure what you mean by saying it doesn't have any effect when it enters the battlefield, but it does make a 12 life difference when you have Pandemonium or Warstorm Surge out (24 if both), and then, if you have a sac outlet (Helm of Possession or High Market), that's another 9 points of life difference (12 damage total, 9 points of life gained). Its synergy with Goblin Welder is obviously very strong, but that's also the only way to gain life in a deck that plays some double-edge swords like Pandemonium. We sometimes need that to recover. The interaction with the 4 cards listed in this paragraph does happen a lot more than you would think. Wurmcoil has never been a bad topdeck for me, he's hard to remove and is usually 2-for-1 or 3-for-1. I could see reasons for removing him but I would need a better card that can do its job in the deck, and I actually don't have any.
3. I'm curious about some of the artifacts you took out from Gaka's build. You removed quite a few of the ones I thought were basically unremovable, they're so much fun to play in mine. I see your reasoning for Conjurer's Closet above, personally I love that card but I guess that's fine. But how come no Sculpting Steel or Tangle Wire?
Conjurer's Closet was never good enough for me. In a multiplayer game, it just brings hate, it will get removed or all my creatures will get removed. In duel, you need a really good creature and Closet. Then you need your opponent to not have any answer. At this point, you are winning so much that you don't need the Closet at all. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad card, it just doesn't do anything in this deck. It falls in the same category as Strionic Resonator: win more. You need a big win on the table and no answer from your opponents. At this point, you are better off with one more threat that you could topdeck when you have nothing in play instead of a dead Resonator/Closet.
Tangle Wire is kind of a different case. It's obviously good since it can tap itself and tap Norin. But to be good, it needs to be played before our opponents' ramp spells, which usually means turn 1 or turn 2. Because I use the French banlist too in the making of this deck, I don't have Mishra's Workshop and other fast mana cards that would really make Tangle Wire shines. Also, late game, it's a completely dead draw, our opponents tend to have a lot more mana than mono-red because they are probably all playing green anyway and more mana rocks. Also, stax cards aren't really meant for casual matchups. It's a more competitive card that doesn't really fit in this deck (since it's not competitive at all), and my meta wouldn't like it that much. Overall, I don't like it very much.
Finally, Sculpting Steal has been in this list a really long time before I made this thread, but it eventually got removed because of Warp World. The fact that I can't copy anything when it enters the battlefield was really frustrating because I would always hit it. It's good with Welder on the other hand and the fact that I'm not playing it anymore is highly debatable. I think it really depends on your meta. I was maybe wrong in removing it. But when looking at my decklist, there isn't that much of a card that I really want to copy. Having 2 Knowledge Pools looks really fun, but this falls off in the win more category too, so we mostly want to copy things from our opponents, which is kind of unreliable. I prefer having access to Helm of Possession which is as good in this deck (if not better) than Vedalken Shackles is in mono-blue.
4. After seeing your decklist I really think you should consider Scroll Rack. In fact given your focus on Possibility Storm I'm surprised to not see a lot more topdeck shenanigans in general. The rack is definitely the best though, 1, tap: put the big expensive spell you want to hit on top of your library, draw a card then play any cheap card that shares a card type with the one you put back. Sensei's Divining Top too, the ability to control the storm and know exactly which card type is most effective at that moment is really powerful. Even Crystal Ball isn't bad although I could understand keeping it to just the other two, the ball is definitely worse.
Sensei's Divining Top is banned under the French banlist which is why I'm not considering it at all, but I don't think it would make the final cut even then. Scroll Rack is strictly better in this deck and not in the list either, so yeah, no top for me! Crystal Ball is more of a niche card. With Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, being able to scry is good, but that's still worse than Scroll Rack, it needs mana, and it's not that good by itself for a deck that tends to play a lot of Wheel of Fortune effects. The card that would really shine here is Scroll Rack and I have one laying around. I'm not sure at which point this card is casual, I think it is beyond broken and should be banned under the French banlist, but it's not. I just never thought it was necessary with Memory Jar doing a better effect but we can't play Jar early game while we can play Rack on turn 2 and start using it on turn 3, which is incredible. I definitely have to think a little bit more about this one, but everything in me tells me not to play this card just because it's too broken for a casual deck by being great in any deck. If you have it, run it... I just can't right now, I wouldn't feel right about playing it, and I think this deck can win without Rack and even without any of the most played staples in the format.
All in all your deck is definitely interesting. I'm a lot closer to Gaka's build right now but sometimes I feel a little lost sometimes when I play it. It's very good and can usually turn into something really scary very quickly but too often it seems like I'm waiting for a way to capitalize. In EDH looking scary is a bad position to be in unless you can quickly turn it into a win because no one can last long with 2-3 players aiming all their guns at you. I think the stronger goblin front is a good idea, it gives you a clear plan and win condition with pure creatures. I'll have to think about the storm and the rest of it some more.
Goblins add consistency and versatility, and obviously a whole theme for the deck. A turn 2 Warren Instigator is huge and needs to be answered, even if you only have 1 goblin in hand, that's enough to make a big difference (especially in 1v1). You're right about looking scary, but what's scary in this deck is mostly really problematic enchantments. Purphoros, Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool are really hard to deal with, and Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge and Pandemonium doesn't need to be on the battlefield a long time to do their job, just a turn or two with Norin and you should be getting at least 3-for-1 or better. Wurmcoil is always here as a nice political defense and can net some precious life points. I'm pretty satisfied with the list right now and always excited to look at new sets to see if there is something good enough to make it through playtesting (Purphoros is a crazy addition to this deck, one of the best card in my opinion).
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Ok that makes sense. Good call on the wurmcoil, I always forget damage from Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge comes from the creature itself not the enchantment. And I didn't see the top on the banned list, my bad. You know it's interesting your point about Scroll Rack, yes it is ultra powerful but in my group playing Memory Jar elicits way more groans and complaints about brokenness than the rack. Although personally I agree with you, they're both crazy powerful but the low cost plus repeatability of the rack just makes it insane. And yea, no arguments from me about Purphoros, that guy is crazy powerful in edh in general, doubly so in a norin deck.
That's a really good point on Sculpting Steel. I'm going to have to apologize to my group, apparently I illegally cloned a Conjurer's Closet last week when I pulled them both from a Warp World. Although to be fair one of the group is a certified judge and he didn't catch it either so I guess I don't have to feel too bad.
No don't feel bad, I didn't know it either a few months ago when I was playing it. But when you play Warp World, that's something important to know since your opponents could reveal Phyrexian Metamorph or Phantasmal Image. That would go straight to the graveyard as it has nothing to copy when it is entering the battlefield (the other permanents aren't there yet).
One particular case would be Copy Enchantment. Enchantments enter the battlefield at the end of Warp World's resolution. In most case, all it does is preventing you from triggering Confusion in the Ranks hundreds of times and not being able to resolve the stack. However, if your opponent reveals Copy Enchantment, he could have a few permanents to choose from, thanks to the new Gods that enter the battlefield in the first part of Warp World's resolution since they are creatures (at least before they are on the battlefield, which is what matters here). That's also really important since you get the Purphoros triggers for your creatures entering the battlefield with Warp World while you don't with Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium (but you sometimes have Genesis Chamber that triggers hundreds of tokens anyway after Warp World has finished resolving completely).
About Scroll Rack vs Memory Jar... well, I once milled everybody with Jar and that's enough for me to keep it. 50 cards? No problem... one activation... Welder into another activation... draw Wheel of Fortune... draw Reforge the Soul... play Kiki-Jiki, copy Welder, Jar again... that's 28 cards. Play Warp World, get a new Welder untapped on the battlefield (assuming you have a lot of permanents and not that many cards left in your deck) and start again for another 14 cards. Buried Ruin and that's now 49 cards milled. Then use Relic of Progenitus, pass the turn and enjoy.
I mean... it's just too fun, isn't it? But yeah, really powerful, but your opponents can play a little bit around it by not tapping out (because if they do, you will be the only one being able to actually cast cards in your new hand).
Scroll Rack is still good, I could really find a spot for it, but I think I would have to play more shuffle effects (i.e. the 4 fetch lands) to really get any real benefit from it, because without being able to shuffle, you are always stuck with the same cards anyway (that's just like an extension to your hand at that point). But yeah, its interaction is great with Puzzle Box. It does really come just to my personnal preference of not playing it.
Lightning Crafter vs Changeling Berserker is still the big question for me, Berserker does more with Warstorm Surge and it does protect Moggcatcher (which is always the creature I want to protect the most). This or Bolt on legs, that's really though decision for me right now, I played both and still can't decide.
Also, almost no creature recursion. Haunted Fengraf could be a start, although I don't like the randomness that much about it. Not sure if mono-red has any other tool.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Yea thats a pretty tough call. Do you often get to actually use the crafter without having an active haste effect? I guess at 3/3 it's tough enough to stand up to some hate but I gotta imagine something like that draws a lot of attention that round.
Btw, how come no War's Toll? It seems like it would fit really nicely in your Anti control theme and it's a pretty solid card in its own right.
Yea thats a pretty tough call. Do you often get to actually use the crafter without having an active haste effect? I guess at 3/3 it's tough enough to stand up to some hate but I gotta imagine something like that draws a lot of attention that round.
Btw, how come no War's Toll? It seems like it would fit really nicely in your Anti control theme and it's a pretty solid card in its own right.
Well I still get a lot of use of Lightning Crafter without any haste effect and being able to champion something like Goblin Matron will sometimes prevent a lot of the hate he could get, especially since his champion ability is a leave-the-battlefield trigger and not a die trigger (so even if he gets exiled, the creature still comes back).
About War's Toll, I know this card has been discussed a lot on Gaka's primer. It would probably be better at 3-cmc (something like 1RR), but as it stands out, it's the same cost that some really game-changing enchantments like Purphoros and Pandemonium. I feel like it would actually go into the Blood Moon spot. And between the 2 cards, that's mostly a meta call, I will usually prefer Blood Moon but if War's Toll cmc would be 3, that would probably be a toss up. The fact that it only affects opponents (as opposite to Price of Glory, which is 3-cmc, eh) is really good though.
However, there is one thing about every enchantments in this deck. They all bring hate. Nobody is really happy when Purphoros hits the battlefield with Norin flickering on each player's turn. But what's good with every enchantments, it's the protection they give towards that hate. Yeah, Purphoros/Surge/Pandemonium will bring every creature into your direction but the damage you're doing with those is huge too, so it all comes down to a race that you can win, and if you lose it, your opponents will all be left with a really low life count which should ensure you to start a new game soon. Confusion in the Ranks is pretty safe explanatory, it just takes every creature on the battlefield and slowing trades them for almost nothing. Players that hate either of Blood Moon or Stranglehold are usually completely shut down by those cards (and that's why they hate em). If they don't affect you at all, no reason for any hate here. On the other hand, War's Toll doesn't have that little evil plus side. Players hating it because they like to play spells in different phases/turns or to attack while still keeping some defense will just go all in on you until you are dead and no War's Toll is on the field. I don't think the disruption is big enough to actually protect you. If the second ability was written differently, something more like... Tromokratis (weird example, but you see how all creatures HAVE TO block if you want to declare a blocker, if you can't, you don't), then it would already be better.
I know I'm pretty picky and I really don't want to sound like I'm off to ideas, I'm actually really happy to read your ideas. The list is just really tuned in my mind and it's really tough to add/remove cards.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That actually makes a lot of sense, it's a good way to think about it too.
As for the land problem, I'd pull out Goblin Burrows too I think. 3 mana just to give +2/+0 to a creature and you can't target norin with it doesn't seem worth it. With a Pandamonium out or the right attack situation sure I could see a scenario where you pick off a key guy that wasn't expecting to be vulnerable but by and large it doesn't seem useful enough. You do have one more mountain than Gaka (counting the fetches) but you run one less Blood Moon without Magus of the Moon and do run Gauntlet of Power which only works with basics so going lower there is seems like a bad idea.
I actually like Springjack Pasture for the same logic as your Conjurer's Closet argument - it doesn't rely on a creature being out there to be useful. Yes it's really expensive for the 0/1 but instant speed creature gen is always good in this deck and if you get board wiped or boxed out with control having any creatures helps you survive until you can pull a weapon and recover. Once I was able to hang on almost exclusively from a pasture and Kher Keep. I had gotten wiped out with a board wipe while my hand was depleted and targetted removal aimed at all of my key pieces. But I had managed to pull a Darksteel Plate off of Confusion in the Ranks earlier. I made a 0/1 indestructible sheep and kept popping out sheep and kobolds and anything I drew until I managed to pull a Warp World and turn the game around. Without one of them I definitely would've lost and I was pretty close to death by the warp so I think without both they would've got me.
Yeah I have the 2 Gauntlets (less mana than Caged Sun). Magus of the Moon doesn't do enough, enchantments are harder to disrupt. If it was a goblin, it would be in instead of Blood Moon, but because it's not... it's not there. You are right on Goblin Burrows, that just confirms my thoughts, I will order a foil Haunted Fengraf, it's as good as mono-red could get to creature recursion. If Anarchist was a goblin, it would probably be there too, but at 5 mana with only 8 targets and no way to tutor it (except for Imperial Recruiter that we can't tutor either), it doesn't do enough.
I'm happy you like the list, Kher Keep / Springjack are really good. And having access to white creatures with Trading Post and Springjack is great against Sword of Fire and Ice and the likes.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
So I have another question for you, how do you deal with the Norin Chaos without pissing off everyone in your play group? I've played it a bunch of times now and it's fun for sure but all the chaos makes turns really long and confusing. It seems like people end aggravated far more often than I'd like. I know a certain amount of that comes with the deck but I don't want my group to avoid playing with me or ban the deck. How do you deal with that? Does it come up? Do you have any tips or tricks for keeping track of everything?
So I have another question for you, how do you deal with the Norin Chaos without pissing off everyone in your play group? I've played it a bunch of times now and it's fun for sure but all the chaos makes turns really long and confusing. It seems like people end aggravated far more often than I'd like. I know a certain amount of that comes with the deck but I don't want my group to avoid playing with me or ban the deck. How do you deal with that? Does it come up? Do you have any tips or tricks for keeping track of everything?
Well you have a few kind of different players, that really depends. Most of my friends are actually trying to build their own Norin list because there is nothing they love more than resolving a Warp World. So, no problem against those guys. I mean, it's mono-red, if your opponent plays Aura Shards, we're really screwed, it blows 27 permanents in the deck. We're still trying to make this work despite really such hate cards. The blue mages won't like Norin because Possibility Storm is their worst nightmare. But you know what's really worse than P-Storm? Counterspells. I'm playing Magic to play spells and I hate that so much. And then there are the guys with their 3k$ manabase, 5cc decks, playing cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor but still calling their deck casual since it's no way competitive... those guys are in a really particular category, playing a deck that doesn't fit either a casual or a competitive scheme. They're just somewhere in between and I can't really win with Norin in 1v1 but they can't win against Edric either.
There will always be players that don't like something in Magic. I don't like counterspells (I'm playing 8 in Edric, most lists run 20+). I don't like when I don't get to resolve the cards in my hand. But you know what? I'm still playing. I enjoy chaos because it creates really crazy board states and different games every time. That's what I like the most from this deck. My playgroup won't ever ban a specific card or a specific deck. Just play the cards you want, and I will take either my casual or my competitive deck depending on the power level of your deck. If it's not casual, it's better be competitive, because Edric doesn't give you much.
About keeping track of everything... I removed Grip of Chaos and Thieves' Auction, those were the most problematics. There is rarely a really complicated stack. If both Genesis Chamber and Confusion in the Ranks are on the battlefield, the order it goes onto the stack really matters (since the controller of the creature puts the token into play once Chamber resolves).But for the most cases, that doesn't matter really much.
Let's say you are resolving Warp World and reveal Confusion in the Ranks with 5 other enchantments entering the battlefield at the same time. You get 6 Confusion triggers. In this case, yeah, take a piece of paper, write down each targets chosen by the enchantment's owner when you add the triggers on the stack and then just resolve everything. But that rarely, very rarely, happens, just because of the way Warp World is written, having the enchantments entering the battlefield after everything else.
There has been a game... planeschase game... where it took 30 minutes to resolve a Warp World. But that was actually kind of enjoyable on a ruling and strategic perspective. On MTGO, the software does it all and because it's casual, I usually don't take too much time thinking in which order to put the triggers, I just press F7 and play. In real life, discussing the order with your opponents is actually fun.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
I was going through my cards looking for things with less than 3 CMC I could play to even out my curve a bit and I came across Aether Vial. Ever tried one of these in there? The ability to slip creatures into play from your hand for free at instant speed sounds fantastic but in practice I don't know how much use it would actually get.
PROS
Super cheap
Possibility of an extra creature at instant speed per turn
Could potentially be pretty game-changing at 3 or 4 counters
CONS
2 turn clock to do anything, 3 turn to really be where you want it
Basically doesn't weld other than swapping it in response to removal
Probably going to eat removal (although considering all the other artifacts I have that's actually not a horrible outcome)
I'm thinking of it as an alternative to a mana rock. I use the Worn Powerstone too and I'm really not in love with it. Idk about you but it sits like a rock on my curve, 3 to 4 is my sweet spot so while it is really nice if I can happen to pop out a turn 4 Caged Sun, Warstorm Surge or Chandra Ablaze on the back of the powerstone, it often seems like I might be better off looking at other alternatives. Fire diamond is pretty mediocre but I'm not sure the powerstone is worth the upgrade for me, scratching turn 2 to play 4 CMC guys on turn 3 sounds a lot better to me than scratching turn 3 to get to 6 early. I also occasionally find myself missing Druidic Satchel since I pulled it out. Probably not enough to put it back but it's really nice with a Scroll Rack or Sensei's Divining Top out there and not bad even without top deck help.
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Finally decided to pull the trigger and subscribe to the forums to post my current decks. This is one of my favorite commander deck so far, which was built around Gaka's Primer with a slightly different theme. This deck is all about anti-control and chaos while running a decent amount of Goblins, Myrs, artifacts and global enchantments. Let's start with my decklist:
1 Norin the Wary
Creatures: 25
1 Goblin Welder
1 Iron Myr
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Feldon of the Third Path
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Goblin Settler
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Moggcatcher
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Assassin
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Skullclamp
1 Springleaf Drum
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Mind Stone
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Gauntlet of Might
1 Helm of Possession
1 Trading Post
1 Perilous Vault
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Memory Jar
Enchantments: 8
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Impact Tremors
1 Outpost Siege
1 Pandemonium
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Stranglehold
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Warstorm Surge
Instants: 4
1 Commune to Lava
1 Chaos Warp
1 Volcanic Offering
1 Word of Seizing
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble
1 Shattering Spree
1 Vandalblast
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Aftershock
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Warp World
Planeswalkers: 3
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Chandra Ablaze
Lands: 37
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Flamekin Village
1 Ghost Quarter
1 High Market
1 Kher Keep
25 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Terrain Generator
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
There is also a Myr subtheme, Genesis Chamber and Myr Battlesphere having a nice synergy when the commander is out and even more with Goblin Welder and Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Another way to win is just to resolve a Warp World. You should end up with a big board advantage if you have been able to get some tokens on the battlefield. It's even better if you can Fork it.
M14 adds up to the package with Strionic Resonator, but Knowledge Pool was prefered instead. It still allows some of the best enchantments to be even better: stack the right side with Possibility Storm when you cast spells and the other (wrong) side when your opponents do. You get to play their spells, and you get to play 2 spells for 1 while they don't.
The deck is still well playable if you ever to lose Norin (which never happens anyway). Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a suitable commander for this deck too as it is a lot about ETB triggers.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Adding Purphoros with Theros, some more lands (34 wasn't enough for me) and also decided to make this list legal on both banlists (which means no Sol Ring and no Ancient Tomb for me).
Zealous Conscript has been removed from my list too for the lack of synergy with him (no tutor except Gamble) and the fact that I just decided to remove any infinite combo possibility (Zealous goes infinite with Kiki-Jiki). Also added Mindslaver, I know that in duel it can be a near-infinite combo but it's harder to pull off and usually don't work well in multiplayer games. I will probably remove it as soon as I get something more interesting to add.
I consider the deck is still a budget build with nothing more expansive than ~30$ except for Gauntlet of Might but I actually play with the collector edition instead of the real one.
What I would really like is some more efficient way to spend all the mana that can be produced with Gauntlets and Caged Sun. However, I don't like X spells because of Possibility Storm. Maybe some ability with X or an ability that could be activated multiple times. Hammer of Purphoros could work.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What do you think?
If playing it, I would add the full goblin package with a more comboish version of the deck. My own version is still more tribal than Gaka's primer though (all creatures are either Goblin or Myr or it must have a HIGH synergy with the whole deck, like Norin and Porphoros).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
With 2 Gauntlets out, every land turns into:
{T}, sacrifice this: Put a 3/3 Golemn Enchantment on the battlefield.
I'm finally (already) removing Mindslaver.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
The Hammer is great and has great synergy with the deck but I don't think it deserves a spot in the list. I will play Cloudstone Curio instead.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Turn 1 Faithless Looting (pitch Mountain and Myr Battlesphere)
Turn 2 Mindstone
Turn 3 Gauntlet of Might
Turn 4 Purphoros, Ogre Battledriver, Welder (Purphoros does 4).
You see what's happening next? Welder brings back Battlesphere (thanks to Battledriver for haste). Purphoros does 10. Battlesphere attacks for 6 and each tokens for 3. That's 18 more damage. 32 damage total and that's w/o Norin. My opponent scooped, he was playing Child of Alara. What an amazing start.
In the meantime, I swapped out Conjurer's Closet for Imperial Recruiter. More consistency, and Closet is kind of a win-more card, you already need winning conditions, it does nothing by itself. Also, I added Knowledge Pool. This card is amazing with Possibility Storm (depending on the order you put the triggers on the stack, players get to play 1 or 2 spells! who said red can't compete on card advantage?)
Finally, Grinning Ignus is replacing Grim Monolith. It's strictly better as it does the same ramp job, is reusable, is better with Purphoros... and not banned, obviously now that Monolith is. Radiate is also out, and then the Resonator (replaced by K-Pool).
Just received my altered Norin, updated the OP. There are a few other minor changes. I swapped out Caged Sun for Worn Powerstone (better early game), added Rummaging Goblin (discard outlet that can be tutored with Moggcatcher, Matron, Recruiter).
The next card I could cut is Lightning Greaves, I don't think it does enough in this deck, I have Battledriver, Anger and Chieftain already. Just need something good to replace it with. I will try to find something better. Helm of Possession could be that card, I find out the deck lacks ways to deal with creatures. This is like Vedalken Shackes but for red, and it is a sacrifice outlet for some artifact creatures with Welder out or just Anger. Also, Blood Moon is back.
Edit: Decided to swap Greaves for Helm, going to playtest this card again, I didn't like it too much years ago in this deck but I think I have to give it a new try because it's a really good way to deal with the most problematic creatures (or those with Sword of Fire and Ice). Norin is always ready to be sacrified too. Nykthos is also replacing Thawing Glaciers now.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
To clarify the combo, since its not immediately obvious:
Play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Play Lightning Crafter; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Lightning Crafter.
Resolve Kiki-Jiki ability, put a Lightning Crafter copy into play; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Lightning Crafter copy to deal 3 damage
Resolve Champion trigger from Lightning Crafter copy; exile Kiki-Jiki.
Sacrifice the Lightning Crafter copy; put Kiki-Jiki back into play.
Lather, rinse, repeat
Lightning Crafter + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Warstorm Surge, Pandemonium, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Goblin Sharpshooter, Stalking Vengeance, Rage Thrower is also an infinite damage combo:
Play Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Play Lightning Crafter; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Lightning Crafter.
Resolve Kiki-Jiki ability, put a Lightning Crafter copy into play; put the Champion trigger on the stack.
Resolve Champion trigger from Lightning Crafter copy; exile Kiki-Jiki.
Tap Lightning Crafter copy to deal 3 damage to itself
Lightning Crafter copy goes to the graveard; put Kiki-Jiki back into play.
Lather, rinse, repeat
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
My bad. Yes it needs a sac outlet. I was referring to getting multiple ETB/dies triggers, which does not require a sac outlet but it does require a Pandemonium effect or a Vicious Shadows effect (which could also be a Goblin Sharpshooter, Stalking Vengance, or Rage Thrower)
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Even though it's in my list, I hadn't been able to put my hands on a Judge Promo Imperial Recruiter before tonight. Finally had the chance to trade for one and I'm really happy. It's been great so far on MTGO too, it really add to the deck's consistency.
Overall, about Lightning Crafter... I tested out Changeling Berserker which has the extra benefit of having 5 power, being haste, and can save Moggcatcher from board wipes. However, I feel like Crafter is better overall, having access to Lightning Bolt on legs is more useful than you would think. I mostly use him for saving a creature when I have Moggcatcher in play, it's just a great toolbox creature because as soon as Moggcatcher starts doing its thing, you basically win if your opponent doesn't really quickly kill all of your creatures. Crafter is also good with ETB like Tuktuk Scrapper and the fact that he can kill himself is actually relevant if you don't have a sac outlet.
I'm not willing to add an infinite sac outlet like Ashnod Altar for combo purpose because I want all my "casual" / "fun" decks to be comboless-certified. In this case, it's the only infinite combo in the deck (since I removed Zealous Conscript for being too easy to win with) but it's really tricky to get there and really easy to disrupt, so I guess I can live with that but yeah, if you manage to assemble every parts (that's 3 cards, Kiki+Crafter+ETB)... you can instant kill everyone. It never happened to me before actually. Putting back Changeling Berserker would make this deck comboless-certified while still getting the job done I guess. I will think about that a little bit, I could completely swap that card for something else too.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
What are your thoughts on it?
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Well, I got really different results from yours actually. It disrupts any blue deck pretty hard, turning their Counterspells into Brainstorms or their Fact or Fictions into Mana Drains. It's pretty much game over for them. Also, it combo well with Knowledge Pool.
Possibility Storm rewards good players that know their deck (i.e. have been playing with their deck for a long time). I could write my above list from scratch almost by heart because I've worked so much time on it, so I know exactly what's left in my deck when I cast a spell, I know what I want, and I will look what cards I flip and put onto the bottom of my deck since it gives me more information on what's on the top. If I play en enchantment and gets all sorceries but Warp World revealed and being shuffled on the bottom of my deck, I know what I will reveal with that nice Shattering Spree sitting in my hand (with the added bonus of getting the replicate trigger before it gets exiled and tucked).
And it's kind of a chaos card, which is something I really like about this deck. It doesn't win you the game, but it does help a lot if you know your own deck well, which my opponents don't (they're not taking that much time making threads on MTGS and brainstorming about their decks!). And you want to play it when you have cheap spells in your hand; being able to choose when it's good for you and when it's not is also key here.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
1. Given your stronger goblin theme, why no Goblin Warchief or Goblin King? The king's +1/+1 is always good and everyone's unblockable with Blood Moon out. And the warchief is cost reduction and haste, both good things as well.
2. Why Wurmcoil Engine? Just cause of its synergy with Goblin Welder? It's not a goblin and it's effect is ETG not ETB so it seems a bit out of place other than that.
3. I'm curious about some of the artifacts you took out from Gaka's build. You removed quite a few of the ones I thought were basically unremovable, they're so much fun to play in mine. I see your reasoning for Conjurer's Closet above, personally I love that card but I guess that's fine. But how come no Sculpting Steel or Tangle Wire?
4. After seeing your decklist I really think you should consider Scroll Rack. In fact given your focus on Possibility Storm I'm surprised to not see a lot more topdeck shenanigans in general. The rack is definitely the best though, 1, tap: put the big expensive spell you want to hit on top of your library, draw a card then play any cheap card that shares a card type with the one you put back. Sensei's Divining Top too, the ability to control the storm and know exactly which card type is most effective at that moment is really powerful. Even Crystal Ball isn't bad although I could understand keeping it to just the other two, the ball is definitely worse.
All in all your deck is definitely interesting. I'm a lot closer to Gaka's build right now but sometimes I feel a little lost sometimes when I play it. It's very good and can usually turn into something really scary very quickly but too often it seems like I'm waiting for a way to capitalize. In EDH looking scary is a bad position to be in unless you can quickly turn it into a win because no one can last long with 2-3 players aiming all their guns at you. I think the stronger goblin front is a good idea, it gives you a clear plan and win condition with pure creatures. I'll have to think about the storm and the rest of it some more.
Well, there are 3 goblins that do a similar job. The 2 you listed and Goblin Chieftain. Haste is pertinent, +1/+1 is. The cost reduction isn't that much. Mountainwalk isn't either. That's why Chieftain ended up being in that spot. I don't need to have multiple time the same effects, if I'm going for a goblin kill, it will usually involve Goblin Matron or Moggcatcher in some way, which should get me Kiki-Jiki and something else. If I'm going that route, I will usually try to get a lot of goblins anyway, enough that Mountainwalk wouldn't matter. If my opponent doesn't play any mountain, it does nothing. I need Blood Moon out, which would be win more in this case. Not good enough. Warchief is a bit of a different case, I did consider it before but I only play 17 goblins right now, and 2 of them wouldn't be affected by the cost reduction (Goblin Welder and Warren Instigator), which makes the count to 15. Reducing the cost by 1 on 15 cards isn't that exciting in a deck that doesn't draw that many cards. We need a Wheel of Fortune to really get any benefit from this, but at this point, we usually play one enchantment instead and just start to win.
Well, not sure what you mean by saying it doesn't have any effect when it enters the battlefield, but it does make a 12 life difference when you have Pandemonium or Warstorm Surge out (24 if both), and then, if you have a sac outlet (Helm of Possession or High Market), that's another 9 points of life difference (12 damage total, 9 points of life gained). Its synergy with Goblin Welder is obviously very strong, but that's also the only way to gain life in a deck that plays some double-edge swords like Pandemonium. We sometimes need that to recover. The interaction with the 4 cards listed in this paragraph does happen a lot more than you would think. Wurmcoil has never been a bad topdeck for me, he's hard to remove and is usually 2-for-1 or 3-for-1. I could see reasons for removing him but I would need a better card that can do its job in the deck, and I actually don't have any.
Conjurer's Closet was never good enough for me. In a multiplayer game, it just brings hate, it will get removed or all my creatures will get removed. In duel, you need a really good creature and Closet. Then you need your opponent to not have any answer. At this point, you are winning so much that you don't need the Closet at all. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad card, it just doesn't do anything in this deck. It falls in the same category as Strionic Resonator: win more. You need a big win on the table and no answer from your opponents. At this point, you are better off with one more threat that you could topdeck when you have nothing in play instead of a dead Resonator/Closet.
Tangle Wire is kind of a different case. It's obviously good since it can tap itself and tap Norin. But to be good, it needs to be played before our opponents' ramp spells, which usually means turn 1 or turn 2. Because I use the French banlist too in the making of this deck, I don't have Mishra's Workshop and other fast mana cards that would really make Tangle Wire shines. Also, late game, it's a completely dead draw, our opponents tend to have a lot more mana than mono-red because they are probably all playing green anyway and more mana rocks. Also, stax cards aren't really meant for casual matchups. It's a more competitive card that doesn't really fit in this deck (since it's not competitive at all), and my meta wouldn't like it that much. Overall, I don't like it very much.
Finally, Sculpting Steal has been in this list a really long time before I made this thread, but it eventually got removed because of Warp World. The fact that I can't copy anything when it enters the battlefield was really frustrating because I would always hit it. It's good with Welder on the other hand and the fact that I'm not playing it anymore is highly debatable. I think it really depends on your meta. I was maybe wrong in removing it. But when looking at my decklist, there isn't that much of a card that I really want to copy. Having 2 Knowledge Pools looks really fun, but this falls off in the win more category too, so we mostly want to copy things from our opponents, which is kind of unreliable. I prefer having access to Helm of Possession which is as good in this deck (if not better) than Vedalken Shackles is in mono-blue.
Sensei's Divining Top is banned under the French banlist which is why I'm not considering it at all, but I don't think it would make the final cut even then. Scroll Rack is strictly better in this deck and not in the list either, so yeah, no top for me! Crystal Ball is more of a niche card. With Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, being able to scry is good, but that's still worse than Scroll Rack, it needs mana, and it's not that good by itself for a deck that tends to play a lot of Wheel of Fortune effects. The card that would really shine here is Scroll Rack and I have one laying around. I'm not sure at which point this card is casual, I think it is beyond broken and should be banned under the French banlist, but it's not. I just never thought it was necessary with Memory Jar doing a better effect but we can't play Jar early game while we can play Rack on turn 2 and start using it on turn 3, which is incredible. I definitely have to think a little bit more about this one, but everything in me tells me not to play this card just because it's too broken for a casual deck by being great in any deck. If you have it, run it... I just can't right now, I wouldn't feel right about playing it, and I think this deck can win without Rack and even without any of the most played staples in the format.
Goblins add consistency and versatility, and obviously a whole theme for the deck. A turn 2 Warren Instigator is huge and needs to be answered, even if you only have 1 goblin in hand, that's enough to make a big difference (especially in 1v1). You're right about looking scary, but what's scary in this deck is mostly really problematic enchantments. Purphoros, Possibility Storm and Knowledge Pool are really hard to deal with, and Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge and Pandemonium doesn't need to be on the battlefield a long time to do their job, just a turn or two with Norin and you should be getting at least 3-for-1 or better. Wurmcoil is always here as a nice political defense and can net some precious life points. I'm pretty satisfied with the list right now and always excited to look at new sets to see if there is something good enough to make it through playtesting (Purphoros is a crazy addition to this deck, one of the best card in my opinion).
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
That's a really good point on Sculpting Steel. I'm going to have to apologize to my group, apparently I illegally cloned a Conjurer's Closet last week when I pulled them both from a Warp World. Although to be fair one of the group is a certified judge and he didn't catch it either so I guess I don't have to feel too bad.
One particular case would be Copy Enchantment. Enchantments enter the battlefield at the end of Warp World's resolution. In most case, all it does is preventing you from triggering Confusion in the Ranks hundreds of times and not being able to resolve the stack. However, if your opponent reveals Copy Enchantment, he could have a few permanents to choose from, thanks to the new Gods that enter the battlefield in the first part of Warp World's resolution since they are creatures (at least before they are on the battlefield, which is what matters here). That's also really important since you get the Purphoros triggers for your creatures entering the battlefield with Warp World while you don't with Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium (but you sometimes have Genesis Chamber that triggers hundreds of tokens anyway after Warp World has finished resolving completely).
About Scroll Rack vs Memory Jar... well, I once milled everybody with Jar and that's enough for me to keep it. 50 cards? No problem... one activation... Welder into another activation... draw Wheel of Fortune... draw Reforge the Soul... play Kiki-Jiki, copy Welder, Jar again... that's 28 cards. Play Warp World, get a new Welder untapped on the battlefield (assuming you have a lot of permanents and not that many cards left in your deck) and start again for another 14 cards. Buried Ruin and that's now 49 cards milled. Then use Relic of Progenitus, pass the turn and enjoy.
I mean... it's just too fun, isn't it? But yeah, really powerful, but your opponents can play a little bit around it by not tapping out (because if they do, you will be the only one being able to actually cast cards in your new hand).
Scroll Rack is still good, I could really find a spot for it, but I think I would have to play more shuffle effects (i.e. the 4 fetch lands) to really get any real benefit from it, because without being able to shuffle, you are always stuck with the same cards anyway (that's just like an extension to your hand at that point). But yeah, its interaction is great with Puzzle Box. It does really come just to my personnal preference of not playing it.
Lightning Crafter vs Changeling Berserker is still the big question for me, Berserker does more with Warstorm Surge and it does protect Moggcatcher (which is always the creature I want to protect the most). This or Bolt on legs, that's really though decision for me right now, I played both and still can't decide.
Also, almost no creature recursion. Haunted Fengraf could be a start, although I don't like the randomness that much about it. Not sure if mono-red has any other tool.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Btw, how come no War's Toll? It seems like it would fit really nicely in your Anti control theme and it's a pretty solid card in its own right.
Well I still get a lot of use of Lightning Crafter without any haste effect and being able to champion something like Goblin Matron will sometimes prevent a lot of the hate he could get, especially since his champion ability is a leave-the-battlefield trigger and not a die trigger (so even if he gets exiled, the creature still comes back).
About War's Toll, I know this card has been discussed a lot on Gaka's primer. It would probably be better at 3-cmc (something like 1RR), but as it stands out, it's the same cost that some really game-changing enchantments like Purphoros and Pandemonium. I feel like it would actually go into the Blood Moon spot. And between the 2 cards, that's mostly a meta call, I will usually prefer Blood Moon but if War's Toll cmc would be 3, that would probably be a toss up. The fact that it only affects opponents (as opposite to Price of Glory, which is 3-cmc, eh) is really good though.
However, there is one thing about every enchantments in this deck. They all bring hate. Nobody is really happy when Purphoros hits the battlefield with Norin flickering on each player's turn. But what's good with every enchantments, it's the protection they give towards that hate. Yeah, Purphoros/Surge/Pandemonium will bring every creature into your direction but the damage you're doing with those is huge too, so it all comes down to a race that you can win, and if you lose it, your opponents will all be left with a really low life count which should ensure you to start a new game soon. Confusion in the Ranks is pretty safe explanatory, it just takes every creature on the battlefield and slowing trades them for almost nothing. Players that hate either of Blood Moon or Stranglehold are usually completely shut down by those cards (and that's why they hate em). If they don't affect you at all, no reason for any hate here. On the other hand, War's Toll doesn't have that little evil plus side. Players hating it because they like to play spells in different phases/turns or to attack while still keeping some defense will just go all in on you until you are dead and no War's Toll is on the field. I don't think the disruption is big enough to actually protect you. If the second ability was written differently, something more like... Tromokratis (weird example, but you see how all creatures HAVE TO block if you want to declare a blocker, if you can't, you don't), then it would already be better.
I know I'm pretty picky and I really don't want to sound like I'm off to ideas, I'm actually really happy to read your ideas. The list is just really tuned in my mind and it's really tough to add/remove cards.
I need to find a spot for Haunted Fengraf and to make a final decision about the changeling/championning creatures. Goblin Burrows is probably the land that could be swapped out for Fengraf, I feel like it does too little, I didn't even remember the last time I used it. As odd as it sounds, I get more use of Springjack Pasture, just to feed Confusion in the Ranks, Trading Post, Warp World or Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
As for the land problem, I'd pull out Goblin Burrows too I think. 3 mana just to give +2/+0 to a creature and you can't target norin with it doesn't seem worth it. With a Pandamonium out or the right attack situation sure I could see a scenario where you pick off a key guy that wasn't expecting to be vulnerable but by and large it doesn't seem useful enough. You do have one more mountain than Gaka (counting the fetches) but you run one less Blood Moon without Magus of the Moon and do run Gauntlet of Power which only works with basics so going lower there is seems like a bad idea.
I actually like Springjack Pasture for the same logic as your Conjurer's Closet argument - it doesn't rely on a creature being out there to be useful. Yes it's really expensive for the 0/1 but instant speed creature gen is always good in this deck and if you get board wiped or boxed out with control having any creatures helps you survive until you can pull a weapon and recover. Once I was able to hang on almost exclusively from a pasture and Kher Keep. I had gotten wiped out with a board wipe while my hand was depleted and targetted removal aimed at all of my key pieces. But I had managed to pull a Darksteel Plate off of Confusion in the Ranks earlier. I made a 0/1 indestructible sheep and kept popping out sheep and kobolds and anything I drew until I managed to pull a Warp World and turn the game around. Without one of them I definitely would've lost and I was pretty close to death by the warp so I think without both they would've got me.
I'm happy you like the list, Kher Keep / Springjack are really good. And having access to white creatures with Trading Post and Springjack is great against Sword of Fire and Ice and the likes.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
Well you have a few kind of different players, that really depends. Most of my friends are actually trying to build their own Norin list because there is nothing they love more than resolving a Warp World. So, no problem against those guys. I mean, it's mono-red, if your opponent plays Aura Shards, we're really screwed, it blows 27 permanents in the deck. We're still trying to make this work despite really such hate cards. The blue mages won't like Norin because Possibility Storm is their worst nightmare. But you know what's really worse than P-Storm? Counterspells. I'm playing Magic to play spells and I hate that so much. And then there are the guys with their 3k$ manabase, 5cc decks, playing cards like Jace the Mind Sculptor but still calling their deck casual since it's no way competitive... those guys are in a really particular category, playing a deck that doesn't fit either a casual or a competitive scheme. They're just somewhere in between and I can't really win with Norin in 1v1 but they can't win against Edric either.
There will always be players that don't like something in Magic. I don't like counterspells (I'm playing 8 in Edric, most lists run 20+). I don't like when I don't get to resolve the cards in my hand. But you know what? I'm still playing. I enjoy chaos because it creates really crazy board states and different games every time. That's what I like the most from this deck. My playgroup won't ever ban a specific card or a specific deck. Just play the cards you want, and I will take either my casual or my competitive deck depending on the power level of your deck. If it's not casual, it's better be competitive, because Edric doesn't give you much.
About keeping track of everything... I removed Grip of Chaos and Thieves' Auction, those were the most problematics. There is rarely a really complicated stack. If both Genesis Chamber and Confusion in the Ranks are on the battlefield, the order it goes onto the stack really matters (since the controller of the creature puts the token into play once Chamber resolves).But for the most cases, that doesn't matter really much.
Let's say you are resolving Warp World and reveal Confusion in the Ranks with 5 other enchantments entering the battlefield at the same time. You get 6 Confusion triggers. In this case, yeah, take a piece of paper, write down each targets chosen by the enchantment's owner when you add the triggers on the stack and then just resolve everything. But that rarely, very rarely, happens, just because of the way Warp World is written, having the enchantments entering the battlefield after everything else.
There has been a game... planeschase game... where it took 30 minutes to resolve a Warp World. But that was actually kind of enjoyable on a ruling and strategic perspective. On MTGO, the software does it all and because it's casual, I usually don't take too much time thinking in which order to put the triggers, I just press F7 and play. In real life, discussing the order with your opponents is actually fun.
Rules Advisor
Pauper decks: Weenie Tokens — Zombies
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
PROS
Super cheap
Possibility of an extra creature at instant speed per turn
Could potentially be pretty game-changing at 3 or 4 counters
CONS
2 turn clock to do anything, 3 turn to really be where you want it
Basically doesn't weld other than swapping it in response to removal
Probably going to eat removal (although considering all the other artifacts I have that's actually not a horrible outcome)
I'm thinking of it as an alternative to a mana rock. I use the Worn Powerstone too and I'm really not in love with it. Idk about you but it sits like a rock on my curve, 3 to 4 is my sweet spot so while it is really nice if I can happen to pop out a turn 4 Caged Sun, Warstorm Surge or Chandra Ablaze on the back of the powerstone, it often seems like I might be better off looking at other alternatives. Fire diamond is pretty mediocre but I'm not sure the powerstone is worth the upgrade for me, scratching turn 2 to play 4 CMC guys on turn 3 sounds a lot better to me than scratching turn 3 to get to 6 early. I also occasionally find myself missing Druidic Satchel since I pulled it out. Probably not enough to put it back but it's really nice with a Scroll Rack or Sensei's Divining Top out there and not bad even without top deck help.