I had a Hedron Matrix laying around, didn't thing about Fireshrieker. Why don't you like either?
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
I had a Hedron Matrix laying around, didn't thing about Fireshrieker. Why don't you like either?
It's very situational.
When Kozilek gets tucked, it turns into a dead card, unless you draw Blightsteel colossus..
Outside of those two choices there's no real "advantage" that it gives me and just seems like a win-more card.
Killing people with Kozilek is not a problem, it's maintaining the flow.
On a side note
- The guide is pretty much finished to be a 1.0 version now, with updated "why not's"
I love this! It's one of the freshest, most interesting decks I've seen recently. I still need to run a few games with it and try a few tweaks, but I have faith that your build is already very strong. Nice writeup, solid analysis, and great concept.
I love this! It's one of the freshest, most interesting decks I've seen recently. I still need to run a few games with it and try a few tweaks, but I have faith that your build is already very strong. Nice writeup, solid analysis, and great concept.
I'll throw in that I'd love to see your Obzedat list.
First off: Thank you!
I'm curious to see your tweaks to the initial build!
Now to answer some of your questions.
The deck sure has place to add in Pithing NeedlePhyrexian Revoker and Jester's cap if you're meta is quite combo-infested. The ones to remove should probably more of the slower, situational cards like Echo chamber and Vedalken Orrery. Like this, it would actually speed up instead of slow down.
Brittle Effigy has proven to be dull. The only reason to run it would be if accompanied by Duplicant (as you said) and still provide to be a slow answer. Duplicant however.. Just recently made the cut. I'm really, really still on the edge about it but as it was, it was slowing me down. Maybe it was my meta that shifted and gained more and more Boros/Gruul aggro decks that made Duplicant sit on the bench like it is. In another meta I'd definitely suggest throwing him back in. (heck, I might even do it myself.)
On the Moonglove extract. I have never tested the effectiveness of it to combat low toughness generals but with this new draw engine that Kozilek brings I might actually give it a wirl some-time.
I'm actually going to thank you by refreshing those cards back into my memory and will playtest them sufficiently.
About my Obzedat, ghost council list!
I'm actually planning to write up about the same amount of text as for this deck for my obzedat deck, but here's the thing.
I'm also a card alterer (quite fresh/new) and my obzedat deck has been the basis of my card altering tests. It's now in the progress of being altered and I want about 50% of it done. (which is a LONG way to go)
If you want a sneak peak, here:
Edit: I've posted this in the card alter forum with a link to the original, but forgot it here, sorry!
Here it is, original by Mike Mignola : http://www.artofmikemignola.com/Art
Another thing is, I've been quite busy playtesting the hell out of this baby. However cool that is, Obzedat doesn't see as much play as this one (the fact that it's staxx also contributes to the case). And will as such, still take a while to finish.
The only two decks I've gotten to a point of near-finishing tweak-wise are this one and my Lavinia of the tenth deck. As soon as Obzedat joins their ranks, I'll be glad putting it all altered up on this forum!
So, as a finisher I'd like thanking you again for refreshing those cards in my memory, sudden burst of inspiration!
Swarmyard
Alright, this card does nothing.
I mainly play this because I have a korean version and people go like, wutt? when I regenerate my Terastodon tokens. Secret tech guys, Secret tech.
I'm still dreaming on using this when my friend plays his Insect tribal deck and some combat shennanigans unfold.
What are the thoughts on Power Matrix? =)
Flying and trample don't seem too bad.. ^^
I have this large pile of "sideboard" cards sitting in my Kozilek EDH box. Power Matrix has been in there for a long time and has never been pulled of the bench, never been "thrown into the game"
Why?
Because it's terrible.
I don't want my Kozilek to have flying or trample, it beats hard enough already. I'd rather invest 4 mana into something that is less "win more".
If it gave haste, definitely. As it is, not a chance.
I think I'm going to test taking stuff like Keening Stone and Soul Conduit out of the deck and replace them with cheaper utility cards like Pithing Needle, a few a manadorks and maybe some graveyard hate. I don't really see how Soul Conduit is going to advance the beatdown gameplan, so I'd rather get Kozilek out quicker and then try to protect the board I've developed. And I play more 1vs1 anyway, so these things feel more important. It would also lower the curve a little and make the deck play smoother. I think it's worth a try.
Soul conduit is quite the multiplayer card. I can see why you would scratch it for 1v1 scenarios.
I'd actually advice testing keening stone if you're opting for a more control oriented build using cards like pithing needle. It's a faster clock than you think. If you want to go TRUE beatdown, it's a good cut though.
I added Plague Myr becuase we have a house rule of 20 infect instead of 10. He might come in handy. Not to mention I have a foil version that looks really cool. (The crowd is a bunch of whiny babies who couldn't stand my Mimeoplasm infect.)
I would play Metalworker, but he is sadly banned by the pro-blue rules committee. Hermit druid is fine, and Academy Rector into Omniscience wins 99% of the time, but giving colorless a boost is to much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Have you ever tried Tawnos' Coffin ? I have always liked it in Karn - and I didn't see the coffin in your list.
It's been on my wishlist for a long time. I actually want to playtest it in my lavinia deck too. But it's hard to find.. Maybe this will be one of the cards I might just buy as a single, together with nova pentacle.
How has Tawnos been working for you? Could you tell me some great interactions with the deck? And/or opponent's decks?
I might just proxy this one up for a small play-test (even though my playgroup is very strict ANTI-proxy)
There goes me ever obtaining a Mishra's workshop
I added Plague Myr becuase we have a house rule of 20 infect instead of 10. He might come in handy. Not to mention I have a foil version that looks really cool. (The crowd is a bunch of whiny babies who couldn't stand my Mimeoplasm infect.)
I would play Metalworker, but he is sadly banned by the pro-blue rules committee. Hermit druid is fine, and Academy Rector into Omniscience wins 99% of the time, but giving colorless a boost is to much.
I was never around when metalworker was legal so I'm not sure why they banned it. I'm positive it's a powerhouse when (ab)used though.
I'm still quite mad, frustrated, disgruntled or actually confused by the VERY VERY late ban of sundering titan. What a misjudge. (IMO)
On your card choices, I'm not sure on what level the plague Myr would ramp the deck. I'm always scared of a mana rock that's vulnerable to wraths.
I didn't really look that hard so correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think you have anything for the yard, and Zoetic lets you ramp
Ahh, it's not like I'm out of answers for a replacement on that behalf. I'd actually prefer Blasted landscape, Desert or Quicksand over Zoetic Cavern cause, Zoetic Cavern ramp is nonexistent. Atleast not at the speed this deck wants it to be.
Tawnos's Coffin was one of those great cards that does some fantastic things - even when not in combo.
It can trigger your CITP cards (oh hai Duplicant and Myr Battlesphere). But it's also a great political tool - to take out attackers or blockers - and it'll make people with vigilant attackers think twice before swinging (as the critter returns to play tapped). It's also great for protecting your dudes (or others, on rare occasion) from boardwipes - especially if you can untap it at will.
In Karn, I'd even use it to animate a pesky artifact and throw it in the coffin - and one time I animated the coffin and targeted itself...I can't remember why, though.
You could also run Springjack Pasture. At least that gives you another land to generate tokens for Helm of Obedience.
Except that Helm of Obedience is not in the main decklist and only on the wishlist. Unless you mean Helm of Possession? In which case, you are right! It's a way better option.
I will replace it right away. Goodbye my pretty Swarmyard!
I think I won't end up playing Keening Stone. I frequently play against decks that try to abuse graveyards, so I'd rather keep their graveyards empty with Relic of Progenitus and other similar cards. I also see Eldrazis in my opponents' decks quite often, so I don't see Keening Stone working really well. But I'm sure it could be useful when used in right meta.
I was thinking of Plague Myr, Walking Atlas and Palladium Myr, for example. Obviously the quicker we can get Kozilek online, the better. They are vulnerable to wraths, that's true, but I think my opponents would rather save their removal for Kozilek than use it on a mana dork. I'm just brainstorming here, so I may be wrong, but I want to give it a try.
I wouldn't say I'm going for more controlling build, I want to keep things streamlined and focus on getting Kozilek online, drawing cards and beating face with what I draw. With my little experience of Magic I've learned, that decks with straightforward game plan usually work better than decks, that are trying to do too many things at once.
Every deck in my meta is trying to abuse his graveyard. May it be Crucible of worlds, reanimator or combo, it doesn't matter.
Keening stone is in here because it can actually KILL in one turn. (except when there's eldrazi players, even Jester's cap won't help you then) With enough mana to generate, and enough untapping effects available Keening stone becomes quite the bomb. And in my meta people don't throw random Eldrazi's in their builds because it wouldn't work with it.
Out of the ones listed, only palladium myr seems like semi-decent. Walking atlas is quite dead here because even with all the card draw, this deck doesn't have that many lands. On occasions, it could work. But that would be bad deckbuilding.
I can get that you want a more streamlined build but like that it will run out of juice when the game shifts to a more late-game state. It won't be able to hold anymore and lots of your draws will be useless mana dorks because your deck will be flooded with them. Be careful with that.
Tawnos's Coffin was one of those great cards that does some fantastic things - even when not in combo.
It can trigger your CITP cards (oh hai Duplicant and Myr Battlesphere). But it's also a great political tool - to take out attackers or blockers - and it'll make people with vigilant attackers think twice before swinging (as the critter returns to play tapped). It's also great for protecting your dudes (or others, on rare occasion) from boardwipes - especially if you can untap it at will.
In Karn, I'd even use it to animate a pesky artifact and throw it in the coffin - and one time I animated the coffin and targeted itself...I can't remember why, though.
mmurmurmurmur..
I really want the coffin now..
grmmbl
Hmm... You may be right. Obviously you have more experience with actually playing the deck, so I'm going to listen to you. When I come to think about it again, already about a half of my deck will be able to produce mana, so I guess I'll start without adding any mana dorks. Maybe I'll give Keening Stone a try as well, it's a 0,50€ card anyway, so...
But I have to thank you again for starting this thread. Without this my deck would be on it's way to sales list. And it's been a while since I've been building and tuning a deck, that excitement! Now I just need that Kozilek, so I can actually start playing it!
Always happy to help!
But you mostly play 1v1 right? Then even I wouldn't run Keening stone (heh) because it has the chance to become a dead card in certain cases. Where-as in multiplayer, it most always has a target.
I was just trying to make you see the power that it has.
And thanks again, always happy to be a source of inspiration!
Wow! I've always wanted to make a colorless eldrazi EDH deck.
I REALLY love the annihilator mechanic, thanks for sharing, it's very insightful!
Btw, on average, how many times are kozilek killed in one game?
And when he's down, in which zone do you put him and why?
Thanks, awesome, gonna try this deck
Thank you!
He dies an average 4 - 5 times a game.
And this deck loves just that, they need to stop him and as such, it keeps coming back for more while refilling your hand.
The most average of games tend to go like this
t1 - t4 ramp
t5 : kozilek, pass turn, it dies
t6 - 7: kozilek, pass turn, it dies
t7 - 10 :kozilek, ..
Etc etc. all while building up the main engine. That's why I call him "the enabler" he keeps a steady flow of fuel/juice AND keeps the tempo up so other players can't assemble a steady board.
(almost) Always, the general zone! (graveyard = shuffle in library)
Only put him in grave if you're milled to like 10% of your library.. (mill players don't target this deck though, heh.)
I also used turn 5 as the average that he comes in, but turn 3 - 4 isn't unusual, even turn 2 isn't that hard to achieve.
Just think Ancient tomb, Eldrazi Temple, sol ring, mana vault and worn powerstone. There ya go, turn 2 = 10 mana = Kozilek on the field and your hand is full again!
Have fun!
I had a Hedron Matrix laying around, didn't thing about Fireshrieker. Why don't you like either?
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
It's very situational.
When Kozilek gets tucked, it turns into a dead card, unless you draw Blightsteel colossus..
Outside of those two choices there's no real "advantage" that it gives me and just seems like a win-more card.
Killing people with Kozilek is not a problem, it's maintaining the flow.
On a side note
- The guide is pretty much finished to be a 1.0 version now, with updated "why not's"
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Wow, you stunned me there for a sec..
Thank you very much!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Can this thing compete against fast combos? I'm tempted to include Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Moonglove Extract, Brittle Effigy, Duplicant, and Jester's Cap in my own build. Would this hurt the tempo or synergy too much?
I'll throw in that I'd love to see your Obzedat list.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
First off: Thank you!
I'm curious to see your tweaks to the initial build!
Now to answer some of your questions.
The deck sure has place to add in Pithing Needle Phyrexian Revoker and Jester's cap if you're meta is quite combo-infested. The ones to remove should probably more of the slower, situational cards like Echo chamber and Vedalken Orrery. Like this, it would actually speed up instead of slow down.
Brittle Effigy has proven to be dull. The only reason to run it would be if accompanied by Duplicant (as you said) and still provide to be a slow answer. Duplicant however.. Just recently made the cut. I'm really, really still on the edge about it but as it was, it was slowing me down. Maybe it was my meta that shifted and gained more and more Boros/Gruul aggro decks that made Duplicant sit on the bench like it is. In another meta I'd definitely suggest throwing him back in. (heck, I might even do it myself.)
On the Moonglove extract. I have never tested the effectiveness of it to combat low toughness generals but with this new draw engine that Kozilek brings I might actually give it a wirl some-time.
I'm actually going to thank you by refreshing those cards back into my memory and will playtest them sufficiently.
About my Obzedat, ghost council list!
I'm actually planning to write up about the same amount of text as for this deck for my obzedat deck, but here's the thing.
I'm also a card alterer (quite fresh/new) and my obzedat deck has been the basis of my card altering tests. It's now in the progress of being altered and I want about 50% of it done. (which is a LONG way to go)
If you want a sneak peak, here:
Edit: I've posted this in the card alter forum with a link to the original, but forgot it here, sorry!
Here it is, original by Mike Mignola : http://www.artofmikemignola.com/Art
Another thing is, I've been quite busy playtesting the hell out of this baby. However cool that is, Obzedat doesn't see as much play as this one (the fact that it's staxx also contributes to the case). And will as such, still take a while to finish.
The only two decks I've gotten to a point of near-finishing tweak-wise are this one and my Lavinia of the tenth deck. As soon as Obzedat joins their ranks, I'll be glad putting it all altered up on this forum!
So, as a finisher I'd like thanking you again for refreshing those cards in my memory, sudden burst of inspiration!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Flying and trample don't seem too bad.. ^^
Neheb
Marath
Yidris
Sharuum
Yidris
Unfortunately Swarmyard can't regenerate Elephants
You should put Elephant Graveyard in its place.
I have this large pile of "sideboard" cards sitting in my Kozilek EDH box.
Power Matrix has been in there for a long time and has never been pulled of the bench, never been "thrown into the game"
Why?
Because it's terrible.
I don't want my Kozilek to have flying or trample, it beats hard enough already. I'd rather invest 4 mana into something that is less "win more".
If it gave haste, definitely. As it is, not a chance.
My god.
I have been playing this korean version of swarmyard for far too long!
It's official. It's a dead card in my deck !
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Started out by writing up a small text for people interested in the staxx variant.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Soul conduit is quite the multiplayer card. I can see why you would scratch it for 1v1 scenarios.
I'd actually advice testing keening stone if you're opting for a more control oriented build using cards like pithing needle. It's a faster clock than you think. If you want to go TRUE beatdown, it's a good cut though.
What mana dorks would you add? and why?
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Have you ever tried Tawnos' Coffin ? I have always liked it in Karn - and I didn't see the coffin in your list.
I would play Metalworker, but he is sadly banned by the pro-blue rules committee. Hermit druid is fine, and Academy Rector into Omniscience wins 99% of the time, but giving colorless a boost is to much.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
It's been on my wishlist for a long time. I actually want to playtest it in my lavinia deck too. But it's hard to find.. Maybe this will be one of the cards I might just buy as a single, together with nova pentacle.
How has Tawnos been working for you? Could you tell me some great interactions with the deck? And/or opponent's decks?
I might just proxy this one up for a small play-test (even though my playgroup is very strict ANTI-proxy)
There goes me ever obtaining a Mishra's workshop
I was never around when metalworker was legal so I'm not sure why they banned it. I'm positive it's a powerhouse when (ab)used though.
I'm still quite mad, frustrated, disgruntled or actually confused by the VERY VERY late ban of sundering titan. What a misjudge. (IMO)
On your card choices, I'm not sure on what level the plague Myr would ramp the deck. I'm always scared of a mana rock that's vulnerable to wraths.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I didn't really look that hard so correct me if i'm wrong but I don't think you have anything for the yard, and Zoetic lets you ramp
Thanks to Numotflame96 for avatar and sig!
At first I hurped, then I durped.
LOL, I got banned cause I'm a Pirate, yar the pirate life is for me!
Ahh, it's not like I'm out of answers for a replacement on that behalf. I'd actually prefer Blasted landscape, Desert or Quicksand over Zoetic Cavern cause, Zoetic Cavern ramp is nonexistent. Atleast not at the speed this deck wants it to be.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
It can trigger your CITP cards (oh hai Duplicant and Myr Battlesphere). But it's also a great political tool - to take out attackers or blockers - and it'll make people with vigilant attackers think twice before swinging (as the critter returns to play tapped). It's also great for protecting your dudes (or others, on rare occasion) from boardwipes - especially if you can untap it at will.
In Karn, I'd even use it to animate a pesky artifact and throw it in the coffin - and one time I animated the coffin and targeted itself...I can't remember why, though.
Except that Helm of Obedience is not in the main decklist and only on the wishlist. Unless you mean Helm of Possession? In which case, you are right! It's a way better option.
I will replace it right away. Goodbye my pretty Swarmyard!
Every deck in my meta is trying to abuse his graveyard. May it be Crucible of worlds, reanimator or combo, it doesn't matter.
Keening stone is in here because it can actually KILL in one turn. (except when there's eldrazi players, even Jester's cap won't help you then) With enough mana to generate, and enough untapping effects available Keening stone becomes quite the bomb. And in my meta people don't throw random Eldrazi's in their builds because it wouldn't work with it.
Out of the ones listed, only palladium myr seems like semi-decent. Walking atlas is quite dead here because even with all the card draw, this deck doesn't have that many lands. On occasions, it could work. But that would be bad deckbuilding.
I can get that you want a more streamlined build but like that it will run out of juice when the game shifts to a more late-game state. It won't be able to hold anymore and lots of your draws will be useless mana dorks because your deck will be flooded with them. Be careful with that.
mmurmurmurmur..
I really want the coffin now..
grmmbl
Edit: I have cut Swarmyard for Springjack pasture (thanks, surging chaos!) and have finally cut Vedalken Orrery for duplicant.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Always happy to help!
But you mostly play 1v1 right? Then even I wouldn't run Keening stone (heh) because it has the chance to become a dead card in certain cases. Where-as in multiplayer, it most always has a target.
I was just trying to make you see the power that it has.
And thanks again, always happy to be a source of inspiration!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I'd get me that mana crypt I'm looking so hard for.
If I'd be rich I'd both add Mishra's workshop and The tabernacle at pendrell vale. Some other options would be the suggested pithing needle and phyrexian revoker cause they'd only need to stop one source.
Echo chamber loses all of it's value if it's 1v1, so does soul conduit and Keening stone.
You can always make this deck more cutthroat competitive, just look at Magistrate's scepter. It all depends on your meta and playgroup really.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
That's a reaction every man likes to hear!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I REALLY love the annihilator mechanic, thanks for sharing, it's very insightful!
Btw, on average, how many times are kozilek killed in one game?
And when he's down, in which zone do you put him and why?
Thanks, awesome, gonna try this deck
Thank you!
He dies an average 4 - 5 times a game.
And this deck loves just that, they need to stop him and as such, it keeps coming back for more while refilling your hand.
The most average of games tend to go like this
t1 - t4 ramp
t5 : kozilek, pass turn, it dies
t6 - 7: kozilek, pass turn, it dies
t7 - 10 :kozilek, ..
Etc etc. all while building up the main engine. That's why I call him "the enabler" he keeps a steady flow of fuel/juice AND keeps the tempo up so other players can't assemble a steady board.
(almost) Always, the general zone! (graveyard = shuffle in library)
Only put him in grave if you're milled to like 10% of your library.. (mill players don't target this deck though, heh.)
I also used turn 5 as the average that he comes in, but turn 3 - 4 isn't unusual, even turn 2 isn't that hard to achieve.
Just think Ancient tomb, Eldrazi Temple, sol ring, mana vault and worn powerstone. There ya go, turn 2 = 10 mana = Kozilek on the field and your hand is full again!
Have fun!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Added a section for Rings of Brighthearth.
Be sure to read up!
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.