How is Diamond Valley stronger than High Market? They do the exact same thing except High Market makes mana. 6 life is not worth the mana.
I'd contend that while Diamond Valley costs nothing to activate (therefore giving you a convenient turn 6 timing on Child), the opportunity cost of having yet another land which makes zero mana is very high.
Having a cheap sac activation for Child of Alara is great when you need to sweep the board on the spot. But it's not free. It'll cost you a land drop that makes no mana.
If you absolutely need to wipe the board, that means there's other things that might need tucking more than your Child. And that's IF they have a tuck spell.
I think you're overly concerned with tuck effects when you're discounting Miren.
1.) Your opponent could just as easily tuck your sac outlet land.
2.) Your opponent could just as easily disrupt how you bring Child back.
3.) And if your build is much more controlling and centered around Child of Alara, having Miren in addition to Tower/Market/Valley is amazing.
5 (extra) life is sort of a lot of life, especially if you're doing it frequently. Which, hey, with corpse dance, you're probably doing it frequently. with VS, probably a lot less so. But imo VS is a recursion engine of last resort.
For my build, I always always want a sac outlet available. If high market was my only sac outlet, I'd almost never tap it for mana, so the option to tap for mana is not super useful - almost useless, actually. Although I acknowledge that the build in this thread is different than mine and would benefit more from the mana than my build.
I'd also point out that you can use several cards (one of which is a key card of this deck from what I see) to allow valley to tap for mana.
The time when having a cheap sac outlet is important isn't when you "absolutely need to wipe the board." Thing is, that time rarely actually happens when you play child. Most people will try to wait out the child before playing their bombs, so that they can actually last. BUT, obviously, as long as no one is overextending you don't need to sac child. So you just slowly advance your own position and everyone else really, really wants child to die so they can play their bombs. THAT'S when they'll try to tuck it, and if you're using your mana to advance your board position, you might not have enough to activate miren. THAT'S when you want a free sac outlet so you can avoid getting him tucked. Although it's also nice to be able to play it turn 5-6 with a sac outlet ready to go. I hate having child on board without a sac outlet available. it draws a lot of hate and a lot of tuck.
1) what spells that tuck creatures tuck lands? Actually, screw that, what spells tuck lands period? I mean, there's probably a few? but not many. Mostly it's strip mine. Which is why lftl is the best thing since sliced bread.
2) Sure, there's multiple stages in the process, and any of them can be disruptable. Just because it's a disruptable process, you just throw your hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not even going to try to protect my synergy"? With lftl backing up your sac outlets, and boseiju making corpse dance uncounterable, and especially with a counterspell or two, it is VERY hard to disrupt repeated wraths.
3) nah, it's just unnecessary. My build has like 30+ tutors, you get to pick your sac outlet of preference. it's like 50/50 phyrexian tower and diamond valley for me. I'd never choose high market or miren. The only reason I run high market is to increase my chances of drawing an outlet without tutoring for it. Miren's bad enough that I'd rather use a tutor and get something that doesn't require open mana to protect the combo.
I don't really care that Child is a nuke. That's not my plan.
Volrath's Stronghold is the only recursion engine for Child of Alara in my build because it's a land. I mostly only care about getting 11 lands + Scapeshift. I don't want to run cards like Corpse Dance that don't advance the 10 gate plan. So I only play the two outlets and care significantly about the mana.
Since your build around maximizing Child of Alara, you need Valley in your build. But it's not as good as High Market. Using High Market for mana with Child in play isn't a good play, but why are you focusing on an obvious bad play to highlight that Valley is stronger?
The option to tap for mana isn't useless if Child isn't in play. And Child isn't in play for turns 1-5. You don't mention the cards which allow Valley to tap for mana (Prismatic Omen/Urborg), one of them directly benefits from High Market tapping for mana. If I played Prismatic Omen, I'd need High Market even more to make sure I can play it turn 2.
tuck effects that that people play:
Oblation
Chaos Warp
Hinder/Spell Crumble
Hallowed Burial/Terminus
Spin into Myth
The instants can tuck lands, the counterspells stop your Corpse Dance loop. So from my perspective the strongest tuck effects are going to stop you no matter what kind of board you're trying to shape.
I'm not suggesting for you to stop playing measures like Boseiju. I didn't say..."AH, screw it, don't play Boseiju because why care." Although I do say that specifically for Terra Eternal. I'm only saying that it's not a reason to not play Miren. Especially since you say redundancy is key in an earlier post. Redundancy means you're playing so many effects that any extra effect is un-needed. Only, you're calling for redundancy...so why not play Miren?
I'm not saying to forsake the protections, it's just like how gromgrom was saying how easy it was to disrupt 10 gate and that's why he didn't like it too much as a win-con. Meanwhile every disruption he mentioned could have just as easily disrupted his win-cons as well.
If you're tutoring, you obviously have mana so of course for you're going to pick Valley over Market if you value the life gain. But the point of High Market is that it makes mana early (when Child isn't in play), and since 10 gate requires so many CIPT lands, having lands that make mana is premium.
Early in the game: Market makes mana
Middle of the game: both activate for 0cc
Late in the game: Valley nets you +5 life
The only case Valley is better than Market is if you care about the life gain. You even only mention the life as a marginal benefit. There are many more cases where the mana matters more than the life gain.
If you don't mind posting your build, it would make be nice to see more builds. +30 tutors is kind of strange.
I mentioned that i didnt like the ten gate plan because it is 11 pieces that need to not be exiled, as opposed to 2 card combos... so of course the same spells will ruin this 2 card combo over an 11 card.one... but its the time and effort involved in the 11 card combo that the removal becomes more relevant. I dont see how that is confusing in the least.
In addition, were all running multiple wincons. The ones i run are the somewhat synergistic with each other while still in some cases being decent on their own. For example, valakut is only a red mana without prismatic omen. Last stand is clunky without prismatic omen, dark depths is not as broken without thespians stage. But theyre generally two card combos. If one is tucked or exiled, its just one gameplan. If a gate or maze's end in tucked, i could have wasted five tutors finding all these gates for naught. Yeah, theyll still tap for mana, but so does valakut. I just didnt use as many tutors.
Im not saying its inferior, im saying its more of an all-in risk. I havent gotten to test your list out to see, so i.cant say for sure yet.
Thats really what i was.trying.to explain. Excuse the grammar, on a mobile device.
I mentioned that i didnt like the ten gate plan because it is 11 pieces that need to not be exiled, as opposed to 2 card combos... so of course the same spells will ruin this 2 card combo over an 11 card.one... but its the time and effort involved in the 11 card combo that the removal becomes more relevant. I dont see how that is confusing in the least.
In addition, were all running multiple wincons. The ones i run are the somewhat synergistic with each other while still in some cases being decent on their own. For example, valakut is only a red mana without prismatic omen. Last stand is clunky without prismatic omen, dark depths is not as broken without thespians stage. But theyre generally two card combos. If one is tucked or exiled, its just one gameplan. If a gate or maze's end in tucked, i could have wasted five tutors finding all these gates for naught. Yeah, theyll still tap for mana, but so does valakut. I just didnt use as many tutors.
Im not saying its inferior, im saying its more of an all-in risk. I havent gotten to test your list out to see, so i.cant say for sure yet.
Thats really what i was.trying.to explain. Excuse the grammar, on a mobile device.
I don't use tutors to search out gates. That's stupid. The only tutor or even tutor-effect that I would ever use to search out a gate is Maze's End. You only need to tutor for one card for 10-gate, Scapeshift.
Valakut uses Scapeshift+Omen. I don't imagine you spend 5 tutors to tutor for mountains. So why do you think that's how I'd try to get 10-gate?
It's not about inferior/superior. It's about why you still insist that it's an "all-in risk?" You keep referring to 10-gate as an eleven piece combo but it's not. Scapeshift is the only card you need, just like Valakut (+Omen) win-con.
I don't really care that Child is a nuke. That's not my plan.
Volrath's Stronghold is the only recursion engine for Child of Alara in my build because it's a land. I mostly only care about getting 11 lands + Scapeshift. I don't want to run cards like Corpse Dance that don't advance the 10 gate plan. So I only play the two outlets and care significantly about the mana.
Since your build around maximizing Child of Alara, you need Valley in your build. But it's not as good as High Market. Using High Market for mana with Child in play isn't a good play, but why are you focusing on an obvious bad play to highlight that Valley is stronger?
The option to tap for mana isn't useless if Child isn't in play. And Child isn't in play for turns 1-5. You don't mention the cards which allow Valley to tap for mana (Prismatic Omen/Urborg), one of them directly benefits from High Market tapping for mana. If I played Prismatic Omen, I'd need High Market even more to make sure I can play it turn 2.
tuck effects that that people play:
Oblation
Chaos Warp
Hinder/Spell Crumble
Hallowed Burial/Terminus
Spin into Myth
The instants can tuck lands, the counterspells stop your Corpse Dance loop. So from my perspective the strongest tuck effects are going to stop you no matter what kind of board you're trying to shape.
I'm not suggesting for you to stop playing measures like Boseiju. I didn't say..."AH, screw it, don't play Boseiju because why care." Although I do say that specifically for Terra Eternal. I'm only saying that it's not a reason to not play Miren. Especially since you say redundancy is key in an earlier post. Redundancy means you're playing so many effects that any extra effect is un-needed. Only, you're calling for redundancy...so why not play Miren?
I'm not saying to forsake the protections, it's just like how gromgrom was saying how easy it was to disrupt 10 gate and that's why he didn't like it too much as a win-con. Meanwhile every disruption he mentioned could have just as easily disrupted his win-cons as well.
If you're tutoring, you obviously have mana so of course for you're going to pick Valley over Market if you value the life gain. But the point of High Market is that it makes mana early (when Child isn't in play), and since 10 gate requires so many CIPT lands, having lands that make mana is premium.
Early in the game: Market makes mana
Middle of the game: both activate for 0cc
Late in the game: Valley nets you +5 life
The only case Valley is better than Market is if you care about the life gain. You even only mention the life as a marginal benefit. There are many more cases where the mana matters more than the life gain.
If you don't mind posting your build, it would make be nice to see more builds. +30 tutors is kind of strange.
Corpse dance might not "advance your gates" or whatever, but keeping the board clear will help you survive long enough to pull it off.
My deck almost never misses a land drop in the first...forever....turns, so I've always got a mana-land available when I want it. Generally I prefer to play child on 4-5, then play the sac outlet land, so that it can't get stripped or similar before I get a chance to sac child at least once.
I don't get your point about tucking lands. None of those spells can tuck lands except chaos warp. As far as countering corpse dance, if I know I'm playing against counters I usually go for boseiju, however VS is a decent uncounterable recursion engine too (as is emeria, albeit a slow one, or genesis). So as long as I have a sac outlet, the only ones of those that worry me are the counters, which I can combat with boseiju/cavern. Everything is solvable. also, you missed bant charm.
Redundancy is absolutely key. HOWEVER I wouldn't run spell blast as redundancy for counterspell. Being forced to keep 4 lands untapped at all times while child is on the board, which means 9 mana for a corpse dance cycle, is unacceptably worse than the free sac outlet lands. While it's not the WORST thing ever and could occasionally be useful despite the cost, I like to keep the colorless lands count in the deck low so I can cast child (and other stuff) more reliably. I definitely wouldn't want to play a colorless land as one of my first 5 lands unless I absolutely had to, since it means child comes out a turn slower in most cases (although I do run ODY filters to improve this somewhat). I also, as mentioned, don't like telegraphing my sac outlets or giving people a chance to kill them and stall me by playing them without child on the board. I'm not theorycrafting this stuff, I've used both sac outlets extensively, and miren has screwed me over and slowed me down, while diamond valley is reliable and cheap, and the lifegain adds up quickly. People tend to get all aggressive when you're wiping their board repeatedly, so they'll hit you as hard as they can, and 1 life per turn doesn't add up very quickly. But working through wraths PLUS 6 life a turn is quite difficult.
I will agree, however, that the usefulness depends a lot on what your build is. For mine, absolutely, diamond valley all the way. Yours may be different.
I don't use tutors to search out gates. That's stupid. The only tutor or even tutor-effect that I would ever use to search out a gate is Maze's End. You only need to tutor for one card for 10-gate, Scapeshift.
Valakut uses Scapeshift+Omen. I don't imagine you spend 5 tutors to tutor for mountains. So why do you think that's how I'd try to get 10-gate?
It's not about inferior/superior. It's about why you still insist that it's an "all-in risk?" You keep referring to 10-gate as an eleven piece combo but it's not. Scapeshift is the only card you need, just like Valakut (+Omen) win-con.
I think the bigger difference is that you're running 11 really bad lands. So it's "all-in" in the sense that you're dramatically lowering the effectiveness of your manabase for the combo. It might be worth it, though, I haven't tried it. Although generally I feel like the game's in the bag by the time I have 11 lands. That or liberal use of global ruin would make it take forever to get to 11 lands. Mmmmmm, global ruin....so preeettttty....
It's interesting to see how the lists in these threads take out the clunky stuff like Seismic Assault and converge closer and closer to that list. Seriously, look at the changes, then look at this list again
I ran his list initially and then slowly updated it. Some cards were clearly him just flaunting expensive crap (Dark Confident) while others were clunky at best (Natural Order what the heck??)
The deck centers on abusing Child of Alara and the graveyard to control the game. Eventually with Child + reanimation you lock down the board and win any way you want. I've done it with general damage, manlands, avacyn + wipes, worm harvest, duskmantle seer + spitting image to make everyone take absurd amounts of lifeloss is my favorite.
On Maze's End: I ran it as soon as it came out. This was my package for it: Amulet of Vigor, Trinket Mage, Gatecreeper Vine, Scapeshift, and the 11 lands. Amulet brought them in untapped and let me really abuse Maze's End, Trinket Mage fetched it or Expedition Map or Sensei's Divining Top, Gatecreeper Vine was a body plus manafixing and could be abused with Nim Deathmantle, and Scepshift was the main win and insta-win with Amulet out.
Result were.. okay. It's certainly easier on the wallet if you don't have some of the more expensive options (this deck can be absurdly expensive). A big problem is that it's an aggro magnet. As soon as people see the Maze's End (or the guildgates for that matter), they will target you for it. Doesn't matter if you need 8 more turns to win with it. The threat of Scapeshift will make you archenemy. You can still win, of course, and I did a couple times, but planting a giant target over your head doesn't do you any favors.
It can also be disrupted very easily. Exile one of the 11 cards and no more combo. I guess you can run Riftsweeper to help combat that but that's really loose.
Finally, the biggest reason why I stopped running it is because it eats up too many valuable slots. ~26 land slots are devoted to the fetches + shocks + duals. Then if you want the Maze's End package that's another 11 slots. Then there's tons of utility lands you want to squeeze in that truly make the LAND deck tick and you start running low on slots to make it happen. I found there were more individually powerful cards I wanted to run instead of the package.
Again, Maze's End is a fine package. I ran it and it was fine. It does have some downsides though and I eventually chose to cut it.
In regards to Diamond Valley.. it's better than High Market imo because the lifegain is really damn good. 6life each time I sac Child or Sun Titan with my Nim Deathmantle combo is way better than 1life per. Is that truly worth the price difference? Nope. I wouldn't be running it if I wasn't proxying it (same with Tabernacle).
@Delandel - your decklist looks somewhere between the OP and mine.
I'm surprised you don't run high market (not as good as valley but still very good) or corpse dance. Corpse dance is INSANE. Also, why oblivion stone? I play it almost everywhere else, but here it seems sort of redundant. Also I sort of barfed at rites of flourishing. not a fan of horn of greed either. they both seem like kingmakers.
@Delandel - your decklist looks somewhere between the OP and mine.
I'm surprised you don't run high market (not as good as valley but still very good) or corpse dance. Corpse dance is INSANE. Also, why oblivion stone? I play it almost everywhere else, but here it seems sort of redundant. Also I sort of barfed at rites of flourishing. not a fan of horn of greed either. they both seem like kingmakers.
I go for Fool's Demise over Corpse Dance. They're not exactly the same but I like the added flexibility of Demise. Sometimes I want my Oracle to survive a Child wipe, for example.
Oblivion Stone is something I can tutor for when Child is tucked and I need a wipe or someone drops something nasty like Blood Moon and I need a wipe. Not an absolutely necessary card but more of a meta call.
Rites and Horn are absurdly good here. The latter especially. My opponents never get close to as much value as I do. If Horn sticks around I usually win the game in the next few turns.
I go for Fool's Demise over Corpse Dance. They're not exactly the same but I like the added flexibility of Demise. Sometimes I want my Oracle to survive a Child wipe, for example.
Oblivion Stone is something I can tutor for when Child is tucked and I need a wipe or someone drops something nasty like Blood Moon and I need a wipe. Not an absolutely necessary card but more of a meta call.
Rites and Horn are absurdly good here. The latter especially. My opponents never get close to as much value as I do. If Horn sticks around I usually win the game in the next few turns.
i run fool's demise too, but corpse dance is just absurd. just incredibly powerful, and so impossible to stop with boseiju. fool's demise has some fun flexibility, but it's much easier to stop. instant-speed removal 2-for-1s you, and it can't be protected from counters. Two removal spells break it, and if the second one is a tuck...bummer for you. Plus it lets your opponents have more control over when child goes off - they can force your hand with removal. Corpse dance you can wait until you absolutely need to wrath to put child onto the board.
you know horn only works with playing lands, right? no double-draws off fetches and most ramp spells don't help. I only see a few cards that give you extra drops. I mean I can see it giving you a (semi) reliable 2 draws a turn, but I wouldn't consider that worth it when the rest of the table as a whole is probably drawing quite a bit more.
Rites is one of my all-time least favorite cards. Everyone else gets MORE milage since they get first draws, and giving non-green decks extra land drops seems like suicide to me, especially since i see no counterspells in your deck. Whenever I see group-hug decks pilot it, things always get stupid in a big hurry, and rarely in a huggy way.
Also I have a general prejudice against any nonland permanents in this deck, if you're really trying to get CPS called on you (via abusing your child ). I have a hard time believing you can keep rites on the field without wiping for more than a turn or two before things get out of control. Whenever I play my deck it becomes archenemy pretty quickly, so giving everyone else draws and ramp is a baaad idea imo.
i run fool's demise too, but corpse dance is just absurd. just incredibly powerful, and so impossible to stop with boseiju. fool's demise has some fun flexibility, but it's much easier to stop. instant-speed removal 2-for-1s you, and it can't be protected from counters.
you know horn only works with playing lands, right? no double-draws off fetches and most ramp spells don't help. I only see a few cards that give you extra drops.
Rites is one of my all-time least favorite cards. Everyone else gets MORE milage since they get first draws, and giving non-green decks extra land drops seems like suicide to me, especially since i see no counterspells in your deck. Whenever I see group-hug decks pilot it, things always get stupid in a big hurry, and rarely in a huggy way.
Also I have a general prejudice against any nonland permanents in this deck, if you're really trying to get CPS called on you (via abusing your child ). I have a hard time believing you can keep rites on the field without wiping for more than a turn or two before things get out of control. Whenever I play my deck it becomes archenemy pretty quickly, so giving everyone else draws and ramp is a baaad idea imo.
I'll give Corpse Dance a shot. Probably take out Oblivion Stone for it and hope to draw into it for testing.
I have 7 cards that give me extra land drops plays (the ones that trigger Horn). 8 if you count Yawg's Will letting me replay any of the previous 7. It gets so nasty. My playgroup knows that it must be destroyed immediately. Even then, I can recur it quite easily.
Rites has always been good to me. It's no Horn but it's still works great. The opponents get to draw first, true. They'll get an extra land or two and then they'll run out of lands to play. I won't run out of lands to play. That's the difference. You don't get the same mileage as the guy with 56 lands, 10 fetches, crucible, yawg's will, tilling treefolk, and other absurd hand-fillers like treasure hunt and as nauseum. And if people leave me alone because I'm "helping" them, then that's a nice bonus.
You underestimate my recursion. Planeswalkers, instants, and sorceries are harder for me to get back, but the rest is easy, especially artifacts. I have tons of ways of getting back artifacts. It's not just Volrath's Stronghold and stuff. One of my biggest engines is Nim Deathmantle. Nim Deathmantle + Eternal Witness / Sun Titan + Sac Outlet = tons of value. Sure, destroy a piece of that, and I'll recur it. Exiling it is the only way to truly stop me. Blowing up my own Azusa is not a problem. She'll be back if I need her!
btw, what's with nomad stadium? i don't get it.
Raw lifegain. Like you said, Child gets hated a ton, so I need to get some life back mid/lategame. Diamond Valley is bestest, but stadium + crucible is alright too.
I'll give Corpse Dance a shot. Probably take out Oblivion Stone for it and hope to draw into it for testing.
I have 7 cards that give me extra land drops plays (the ones that trigger Horn). 8 if you count Yawg's Will letting me replay any of the previous 7. It gets so nasty. My playgroup knows that it must be destroyed immediately. Even then, I can recur it quite easily.
Rites has always been good to me. It's no Horn but it's still works great. The opponents get to draw first, true. They'll get an extra land or two and then they'll run out of lands to play. I won't run out of lands to play. That's the difference. You don't get the same mileage as the guy with 56 lands, 10 fetches, crucible, yawg's will, tilling treefolk, and other absurd hand-fillers like treasure hunt and as nauseum. And if people leave me alone because I'm "helping" them, then that's a nice bonus.
You underestimate my recursion. Planeswalkers, instants, and sorceries are harder for me to get back, but the rest is easy, especially artifacts. I have tons of ways of getting back artifacts. It's not just Volrath's Stronghold and stuff. One of my biggest engines is Nim Deathmantle. Nim Deathmantle + Eternal Witness / Sun Titan + Sac Outlet = tons of value. Sure, destroy a piece of that, and I'll recur it. Exiling it is the only way to truly stop me. Blowing up my own Azusa is not a problem. She'll be back if I need her!
Raw lifegain. Like you said, Child gets hated a ton, so I need to get some life back mid/lategame. Diamond Valley is bestest, but stadium + crucible is alright too.
I wouldn't "hope to draw into" corpse dance, it's usually tutor target #2 for me (#1 being intuition, which I usually use to set up lftl + sac out + boseiju/cavern/fetch/VS/emeria/strip, or genesis + ewit + glen elendra archmage if i'm feeling weird and I think I can get away with it). If I happen to have a sac outlet already, then it's usually tutor target #1.
you're running more extra land drops that me so I guess I'll take your word about it for the horn. I still have no intention to play it, though.
I don't doubt that hitting an extra land drop is nice for your deck, but exploration gives you that, asymmetrically, for 1 mana instead of 3, and doesn't give your enemies huge advantages. Plus they could be playing more draw that enables them to get double drops all day. Giving a good mono-blue deck double land drops and extra draws seems really dangerous to me, and you have so little control outside of child, which still can't really be properly abused without corpse dance. If someone drops a consecrated sphinx so they're drawing 8+ cards every turn cycle and hitting extra land drops to boot, I feel like you're going to get stomped instantly.
Hmm, yeah I don't like stadium. But then I also prefer not to run crucible in this deck since I prefer lftl. Since you're going for a more permanent-based deck maybe it makes more sense. I also can get diamond valley way more reliably.
Jace, the Expensive (considering, as a perm proxy, as i have NO intention of paying over $100 for a piece of cardboard for a casual/social format. Trading is another story...)
Thank you for the ideas. I'm gonna tinker soon. For now, I'll update initial post with reference to your builds, and if someone wants to lend theirs, I'll list your list as an alternate build.
I wouldn't "hope to draw into" corpse dance, it's usually tutor target #2 for me (#1 being intuition, which I usually use to set up lftl + sac out + boseiju/cavern/fetch/VS/emeria/strip, or genesis + ewit + glen elendra archmage if i'm feeling weird and I think I can get away with it). If I happen to have a sac outlet already, then it's usually tutor target #1.
May I see your list?
you're running more extra land drops that me so I guess I'll take your word about it for the horn. I still have no intention to play it, though.
I don't doubt that hitting an extra land drop is nice for your deck, but exploration gives you that, asymmetrically, for 1 mana instead of 3, and doesn't give your enemies huge advantages. Plus they could be playing more draw that enables them to get double drops all day. Giving a good mono-blue deck double land drops and extra draws seems really dangerous to me, and you have so little control outside of child, which still can't really be properly abused without corpse dance. If someone drops a consecrated sphinx so they're drawing 8+ cards every turn cycle and hitting extra land drops to boot, I feel like you're going to get stomped instantly.
I concede that rites of flourishing can backfire. I've personally had good experiences but I can see how it can be detrimental. I really do back horn of greed though. My playgroup is rightfully scared of it.
Hmm, yeah I don't like stadium. But then I also prefer not to run crucible in this deck since I prefer lftl. Since you're going for a more permanent-based deck maybe it makes more sense. I also can get diamond valley way more reliably.
Why not lftl AND crucible? They're both very insane and crucial to the deck.
Yeah, nomad stadium isn't stellar. It's one of the cards I've still kept from the original list. It's a good candidate to replace for cavern of souls or boseiju, both of which I really need to jam into this deck.
Thanks for that dude's decklist! I definitely see some ideas I like. And of course the mana base. Definitely need to work on mine.
And thank you guys for the discussion. I've been mostly going at this by myself for a long while. Glad to have this going on.
Nim Deathmantle was in my list years ago and got cut. I was using it for E Witness/Child Shenanigans.
Glad I could help. This thread has certainly helped me already.
What type of shenanigans does Nim Deathmantle do with Child? But yeah, it's such a house in my deck. E Witness or Sun Titan, Deathmantle, sac outlet.. good times.
Thanks for the suggestions, Dirk! It's nice to have a second opinion on the list. I've taken out Nomad Stadium, Secluded Steppe, and Oblivion Stone for Boseiju, Cavern, and Corpse Dance.
I concede that rites of flourishing can backfire. I've personally had good experiences but I can see how it can be detrimental. I really do back horn of greed though. My playgroup is rightfully scared of it.
Why not lftl AND crucible? They're both very insane and crucial to the deck.
Glad I could help. This thread has certainly helped me already.
What type of shenanigans does Nim Deathmantle do with Child? But yeah, it's such a house in my deck. E Witness or Sun Titan, Deathmantle, sac outlet.. good times.
Thanks for the suggestions, Dirk! It's nice to have a second opinion on the list. I've taken out Nomad Stadium, Secluded Steppe, and Oblivion Stone for Boseiju, Cavern, and Corpse Dance.
My understanding from what a judge told me years ago when the card was spoiled, was that his graveyard trigger still happens. Could be wrong.
Rites is on my cutting board. I just wish there were more one sided permanent-based "play additional land" cards... hate using one off effects like Explore and Summer Bloom. But they may be what I need.
My understanding from what a judge told me years ago when the card was spoiled, was that his graveyard trigger still happens. Could be wrong.
Rites is on my cutting board. I just wish there were more one sided permanent-based "play additional land" cards... hate using one off effects like Explore and Summer Bloom. But they may be what I need.
He goes to the graveyard.. then if you pay 4 does he come back? I've never thought about this before.
There's also Storm Cauldron. Actually something I might consider since I have so many ways to play extra lands each turn. Hmm!
He goes to the graveyard.. then if you pay 4 does he come back? I've never thought about this before.
There's also Storm Cauldron. Actually something I might consider since I have so many ways to play extra lands each turn. Hmm!
It's particularly nasty with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. However, these cards tend to backfire on me at times, and generally sometimes dont help at all. They may be on my chopping block as well. They, like Seismic Assault, seem to be a clunky, but neat thing to play.
However, if you're ahead, they're wincons. They lock people out. They help when Humility comes down and you cant use Child.
It's particularly nasty with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. However, these cards tend to backfire on me at times, and generally sometimes dont help at all. They may be on my chopping block as well. They, like Seismic Assault, seem to be a clunky, but neat thing to play.
However, if you're ahead, they're wincons. They lock people out. They help when Humility comes down and you cant use Child.
Storm Cauldron works well with azusa, oracle, burgeoning, and exploration to help replay lands faster than your opponents. The problem is when you don't have any of those on the field, then you're just as hurt as your opponents.
Global Ruin is another neat one. At my table it's bound to get me 2-4 lands ahead of my opponents. The problem is that since my deck is geared to spewing out so many lands so fast, I'll probably be losing just as much, if not more, lands overall as my opponents. I have crucible, life from the loam, tilling treefolk, sun titan, and eternal witness to get them back. Again the problem is whether the risk is worth the reward.
I concede that rites of flourishing can backfire. I've personally had good experiences but I can see how it can be detrimental. I really do back horn of greed though. My playgroup is rightfully scared of it.
Why not lftl AND crucible? They're both very insane and crucial to the deck.
Yeah, nomad stadium isn't stellar. It's one of the cards I've still kept from the original list. It's a good candidate to replace for cavern of souls or boseiju, both of which I really need to jam into this deck.
Glad I could help. This thread has certainly helped me already.
What type of shenanigans does Nim Deathmantle do with Child? But yeah, it's such a house in my deck. E Witness or Sun Titan, Deathmantle, sac outlet.. good times.
Thanks for the suggestions, Dirk! It's nice to have a second opinion on the list. I've taken out Nomad Stadium, Secluded Steppe, and Oblivion Stone for Boseiju, Cavern, and Corpse Dance.
My list is on my old phone which is dead, but I'm charging it up. Can't seem to find it on my computer anywhere, unfortunately.
I don't run crucible because my deck relies heavily on locking people down with child of alara. I usually wrath every turn, or at a minimum every other turn, usually starting on turn 5-6. recurring crucible is too much effort to do that often. Actually I don't really have any good ways to recur artifacts at all iirc, just creatures. I guess I could use ewit but that's a lot of effort. I agree that it's great for most decks in this vein but I really can't support any non-land permanents that I don't want being destroyed in my build.
personally i wouldn't take out the cycling lands, I love 'em with lftl, but it's your call.
There is no point in playing any of the cards that help other players also.
Doesn't repeated Global Ruin take out all of your utility lands? And make it difficult to get to the ~11 lands in play board state (Maze's End and Valakut)? Since Global Ruin is working so well for you, why hasn't your meta adjusted to include Armageddon/Ruination (stronger cards) and hated you out?
Crucible is pretty strong for a lands.dec, especially when you get Azusa/Exploration going.
LftL needs 2 cycling lands and/or Exploration/Azusa involved to get out of control. With one cycling one, you're just drawing one a turn and dredging 3. With 2 cycling lands, you're drawing 2 and better protect LftL from exile. So you might as well play all 5 of the cycling lands.
11 bad lands can easily replace 7 forests and 4 other cards.
There is no point in playing any of the cards that help other players also.
Doesn't repeated Global Ruin take out all of your utility lands? And make it difficult to get to the ~11 lands in play board state (Maze's End and Valakut)? Since Global Ruin is working so well for you, why hasn't your meta adjusted to include Armageddon/Ruination (stronger cards) and hated you out?
Crucible is pretty strong for a lands.dec, especially when you get Azusa/Exploration going.
LftL needs 2 cycling lands and/or Exploration/Azusa involved to get out of control. With one cycling one, you're just drawing one a turn and dredging 3. With 2 cycling lands, you're drawing 2 and better protect LftL from exile. So you might as well play all 5 of the cycling lands.
11 bad lands can easily replace 7 forests and 4 other cards.
Going to find a cut for Jace TMS
sure, global ruin kills my sac outlets and such, which is why I either hold them or make sure I have a lftl. If you wipe with child and then global ruin it's pretty brutal on most decks. I don't run maze's end or valakut. I don't get to play this deck hardly ever, everyone hated it too much. Only if I go to a new group, and even then, they usually want me to switch soon
crucible is great, but not for my deck.
lftl is perfectly great with 1 cycler and some fetches, just making sure you hit your drops. It's also great with tolaria west. You only need 1 cycler to protect it very well from exile.
i'm confused what you mean about the bad lands replacing forests and other cards.
i have a hard time believing jace is worth it in this deck. speaking as a guy who has one.
I typically run those forests and a basic swamp island and plains to protect against blood moon and back to basics utterly shutting me out of a game. Its happened before, and no one will save you.
I considered jace for the brainstorms, which id assume would be killer with all our shuffle effects. However, he might paint a target on your head more than garruk would. Hes performed well for me so far.
sure, global ruin kills my sac outlets and such, which is why I either hold them or make sure I have a lftl. If you wipe with child and then global ruin it's pretty brutal on most decks. I don't run maze's end or valakut. I don't get to play this deck hardly ever, everyone hated it too much. Only if I go to a new group, and even then, they usually want me to switch soon
crucible is great, but not for my deck.
lftl is perfectly great with 1 cycler and some fetches, just making sure you hit your drops. It's also great with tolaria west. You only need 1 cycler to protect it very well from exile.
i'm confused what you mean about the bad lands replacing forests and other cards.
i have a hard time believing jace is worth it in this deck. speaking as a guy who has one.
I'm confused as well since if you're going to call gates bad cards, might as well call the forests bad cards also.
Using LftL just to hit land drops is acceptable. But that's pretty weak compared to how it could be utilized. If drawing one card a turn is fine, 1 cycling land is fine. But might as well play more than 1 as you also suggested.
I guess no non-land permanent is worth it in your deck. That's your call. However, I don't think that rolls over to most of the decks that have been actually listed which do use permanents. Just looking at the OP list, I have an easy time believing Jace TMS is worth including.
Also speaking as a guy who has one even though it doesn't matter.
I just wanted to pop in (recently getting back into EDH, baby is my first rebuild) and comment.
My baby deck almost never casts baby; I rely on huge land dumping/deck thinning, and only utilize baby when I need to clear a troublesome permanent or two. By utilizing baby in this manner, my deck is not considered "Degenerate" by my playgroup.
I'm confused as well since if you're going to call gates bad cards, might as well call the forests bad cards also.
Using LftL just to hit land drops is acceptable. But that's pretty weak compared to how it could be utilized. If drawing one card a turn is fine, 1 cycling land is fine. But might as well play more than 1 as you also suggested.
I guess no non-land permanent is worth it in your deck. That's your call. However, I don't think that rolls over to most of the decks that have been actually listed which do use permanents. Just looking at the OP list, I have an easy time believing Jace TMS is worth including.
Also speaking as a guy who has one even though it doesn't matter.
Why would that follow? Forests are fine and necessary and don't etbt. And can be hit with basic land ramp. Although 7 is sort of a lot, I think I run 1-2.
I think I run 3(?) cyclers in the deck but that doesn't mean you're getting more than 1 reliably. But as long as you're getting back 3 lands each time I think it's plenty powerful, and fetches usually provide that easily. dumping stuff in the grave is also really good in general.
I run nonland permanents, but most of them are fine to kill (i.e. STE, glen-elendra archmage, genesis). I think glen elendra is the only one I don't want dead, but persist makes it reasonable.
My reason behind not liking jace is that I don't think this deck can reasonably recur him or protect him. Pretty much any evasion can get to him, and there's very little targeted hate to stop attacks getting through. I wouldn't anticipate getting more than 1 brainstorm out of him before he eats it for good.
Jace certainly isn't essential to the deck. The only way I recur him is with E. Witness. However, I am shuffling every single turn (unfortunately), so his brainstorm is busted. I usually can protect him well enough with manlands or maze of ith / kor haven. If I can get more than one brainstorm out then I feel he was a very good investment.
I guess an underlying issue with the deck that you guys touched upon is people disliking the deck because of the constant threat of wrath. You hold the board hostage with the looming threat of wipe so people will target you. Because people target you, you wrath early and often. Because you wrath early and often, people don't like the deck. It's a vicious cycle.
I've been slowly tweaking my list to feature more ways to defend myself without having to constantly wrath the board. Maze of Ith and Kor Haven are obvious but I've also included the fatter manlands, which do an okay job defending if necessary. My most recent inclusion has been Dragonmaster Outcast. It's no Avenger Zendikar, but she costs a mere 1 mana and protection from flyers is highly relevant. I haven't had a chance to test her out yet.
I asked my playgroup what their thoughts were on my Child and they said they like playing against my deck because it keeps the more competitive players from getting out of control. They'll still gang up and try to dismantle first since I'm holding a gun to their board, but they like my deck being in the game. In fact, in every game the people who are losing will work with me to get Child to pop -- and then promptly exile my GY / try to steal or tuck my general when they get a better position.
If your playgroup isn't like my playgroup and they dislike your "wrath all day every day" strat then you should consider running something more along the lines of OP's list. More threats, less boom.
5 (extra) life is sort of a lot of life, especially if you're doing it frequently. Which, hey, with corpse dance, you're probably doing it frequently. with VS, probably a lot less so. But imo VS is a recursion engine of last resort.
For my build, I always always want a sac outlet available. If high market was my only sac outlet, I'd almost never tap it for mana, so the option to tap for mana is not super useful - almost useless, actually. Although I acknowledge that the build in this thread is different than mine and would benefit more from the mana than my build.
I'd also point out that you can use several cards (one of which is a key card of this deck from what I see) to allow valley to tap for mana.
The time when having a cheap sac outlet is important isn't when you "absolutely need to wipe the board." Thing is, that time rarely actually happens when you play child. Most people will try to wait out the child before playing their bombs, so that they can actually last. BUT, obviously, as long as no one is overextending you don't need to sac child. So you just slowly advance your own position and everyone else really, really wants child to die so they can play their bombs. THAT'S when they'll try to tuck it, and if you're using your mana to advance your board position, you might not have enough to activate miren. THAT'S when you want a free sac outlet so you can avoid getting him tucked. Although it's also nice to be able to play it turn 5-6 with a sac outlet ready to go. I hate having child on board without a sac outlet available. it draws a lot of hate and a lot of tuck.
1) what spells that tuck creatures tuck lands? Actually, screw that, what spells tuck lands period? I mean, there's probably a few? but not many. Mostly it's strip mine. Which is why lftl is the best thing since sliced bread.
2) Sure, there's multiple stages in the process, and any of them can be disruptable. Just because it's a disruptable process, you just throw your hands in the air and say "screw it, I'm not even going to try to protect my synergy"? With lftl backing up your sac outlets, and boseiju making corpse dance uncounterable, and especially with a counterspell or two, it is VERY hard to disrupt repeated wraths.
3) nah, it's just unnecessary. My build has like 30+ tutors, you get to pick your sac outlet of preference. it's like 50/50 phyrexian tower and diamond valley for me. I'd never choose high market or miren. The only reason I run high market is to increase my chances of drawing an outlet without tutoring for it. Miren's bad enough that I'd rather use a tutor and get something that doesn't require open mana to protect the combo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Volrath's Stronghold is the only recursion engine for Child of Alara in my build because it's a land. I mostly only care about getting 11 lands + Scapeshift. I don't want to run cards like Corpse Dance that don't advance the 10 gate plan. So I only play the two outlets and care significantly about the mana.
Since your build around maximizing Child of Alara, you need Valley in your build. But it's not as good as High Market. Using High Market for mana with Child in play isn't a good play, but why are you focusing on an obvious bad play to highlight that Valley is stronger?
The option to tap for mana isn't useless if Child isn't in play. And Child isn't in play for turns 1-5. You don't mention the cards which allow Valley to tap for mana (Prismatic Omen/Urborg), one of them directly benefits from High Market tapping for mana. If I played Prismatic Omen, I'd need High Market even more to make sure I can play it turn 2.
tuck effects that that people play:
Oblation
Chaos Warp
Hinder/Spell Crumble
Hallowed Burial/Terminus
Spin into Myth
The instants can tuck lands, the counterspells stop your Corpse Dance loop. So from my perspective the strongest tuck effects are going to stop you no matter what kind of board you're trying to shape.
I'm not suggesting for you to stop playing measures like Boseiju. I didn't say..."AH, screw it, don't play Boseiju because why care." Although I do say that specifically for Terra Eternal. I'm only saying that it's not a reason to not play Miren. Especially since you say redundancy is key in an earlier post. Redundancy means you're playing so many effects that any extra effect is un-needed. Only, you're calling for redundancy...so why not play Miren?
I'm not saying to forsake the protections, it's just like how gromgrom was saying how easy it was to disrupt 10 gate and that's why he didn't like it too much as a win-con. Meanwhile every disruption he mentioned could have just as easily disrupted his win-cons as well.
If you're tutoring, you obviously have mana so of course for you're going to pick Valley over Market if you value the life gain. But the point of High Market is that it makes mana early (when Child isn't in play), and since 10 gate requires so many CIPT lands, having lands that make mana is premium.
Early in the game: Market makes mana
Middle of the game: both activate for 0cc
Late in the game: Valley nets you +5 life
The only case Valley is better than Market is if you care about the life gain. You even only mention the life as a marginal benefit. There are many more cases where the mana matters more than the life gain.
If you don't mind posting your build, it would make be nice to see more builds. +30 tutors is kind of strange.
In addition, were all running multiple wincons. The ones i run are the somewhat synergistic with each other while still in some cases being decent on their own. For example, valakut is only a red mana without prismatic omen. Last stand is clunky without prismatic omen, dark depths is not as broken without thespians stage. But theyre generally two card combos. If one is tucked or exiled, its just one gameplan. If a gate or maze's end in tucked, i could have wasted five tutors finding all these gates for naught. Yeah, theyll still tap for mana, but so does valakut. I just didnt use as many tutors.
Im not saying its inferior, im saying its more of an all-in risk. I havent gotten to test your list out to see, so i.cant say for sure yet.
Thats really what i was.trying.to explain. Excuse the grammar, on a mobile device.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I don't use tutors to search out gates. That's stupid. The only tutor or even tutor-effect that I would ever use to search out a gate is Maze's End. You only need to tutor for one card for 10-gate, Scapeshift.
Valakut uses Scapeshift+Omen. I don't imagine you spend 5 tutors to tutor for mountains. So why do you think that's how I'd try to get 10-gate?
It's not about inferior/superior. It's about why you still insist that it's an "all-in risk?" You keep referring to 10-gate as an eleven piece combo but it's not. Scapeshift is the only card you need, just like Valakut (+Omen) win-con.
Corpse dance might not "advance your gates" or whatever, but keeping the board clear will help you survive long enough to pull it off.
My deck almost never misses a land drop in the first...forever....turns, so I've always got a mana-land available when I want it. Generally I prefer to play child on 4-5, then play the sac outlet land, so that it can't get stripped or similar before I get a chance to sac child at least once.
I don't get your point about tucking lands. None of those spells can tuck lands except chaos warp. As far as countering corpse dance, if I know I'm playing against counters I usually go for boseiju, however VS is a decent uncounterable recursion engine too (as is emeria, albeit a slow one, or genesis). So as long as I have a sac outlet, the only ones of those that worry me are the counters, which I can combat with boseiju/cavern. Everything is solvable. also, you missed bant charm.
Redundancy is absolutely key. HOWEVER I wouldn't run spell blast as redundancy for counterspell. Being forced to keep 4 lands untapped at all times while child is on the board, which means 9 mana for a corpse dance cycle, is unacceptably worse than the free sac outlet lands. While it's not the WORST thing ever and could occasionally be useful despite the cost, I like to keep the colorless lands count in the deck low so I can cast child (and other stuff) more reliably. I definitely wouldn't want to play a colorless land as one of my first 5 lands unless I absolutely had to, since it means child comes out a turn slower in most cases (although I do run ODY filters to improve this somewhat). I also, as mentioned, don't like telegraphing my sac outlets or giving people a chance to kill them and stall me by playing them without child on the board. I'm not theorycrafting this stuff, I've used both sac outlets extensively, and miren has screwed me over and slowed me down, while diamond valley is reliable and cheap, and the lifegain adds up quickly. People tend to get all aggressive when you're wiping their board repeatedly, so they'll hit you as hard as they can, and 1 life per turn doesn't add up very quickly. But working through wraths PLUS 6 life a turn is quite difficult.
I will agree, however, that the usefulness depends a lot on what your build is. For mine, absolutely, diamond valley all the way. Yours may be different.
I think the bigger difference is that you're running 11 really bad lands. So it's "all-in" in the sense that you're dramatically lowering the effectiveness of your manabase for the combo. It might be worth it, though, I haven't tried it. Although generally I feel like the game's in the bag by the time I have 11 lands. That or liberal use of global ruin would make it take forever to get to 11 lands. Mmmmmm, global ruin....so preeettttty....
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My list is based on Carlos' Child list posted 2 years ago on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov8Gfz30kEY
His list is in the video description.
It's interesting to see how the lists in these threads take out the clunky stuff like Seismic Assault and converge closer and closer to that list. Seriously, look at the changes, then look at this list again
I ran his list initially and then slowly updated it. Some cards were clearly him just flaunting expensive crap (Dark Confident) while others were clunky at best (Natural Order what the heck??)
This is my list:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lands-59/
The deck centers on abusing Child of Alara and the graveyard to control the game. Eventually with Child + reanimation you lock down the board and win any way you want. I've done it with general damage, manlands, avacyn + wipes, worm harvest, duskmantle seer + spitting image to make everyone take absurd amounts of lifeloss is my favorite.
On Maze's End: I ran it as soon as it came out. This was my package for it: Amulet of Vigor, Trinket Mage, Gatecreeper Vine, Scapeshift, and the 11 lands. Amulet brought them in untapped and let me really abuse Maze's End, Trinket Mage fetched it or Expedition Map or Sensei's Divining Top, Gatecreeper Vine was a body plus manafixing and could be abused with Nim Deathmantle, and Scepshift was the main win and insta-win with Amulet out.
Result were.. okay. It's certainly easier on the wallet if you don't have some of the more expensive options (this deck can be absurdly expensive). A big problem is that it's an aggro magnet. As soon as people see the Maze's End (or the guildgates for that matter), they will target you for it. Doesn't matter if you need 8 more turns to win with it. The threat of Scapeshift will make you archenemy. You can still win, of course, and I did a couple times, but planting a giant target over your head doesn't do you any favors.
It can also be disrupted very easily. Exile one of the 11 cards and no more combo. I guess you can run Riftsweeper to help combat that but that's really loose.
Finally, the biggest reason why I stopped running it is because it eats up too many valuable slots. ~26 land slots are devoted to the fetches + shocks + duals. Then if you want the Maze's End package that's another 11 slots. Then there's tons of utility lands you want to squeeze in that truly make the LAND deck tick and you start running low on slots to make it happen. I found there were more individually powerful cards I wanted to run instead of the package.
Again, Maze's End is a fine package. I ran it and it was fine. It does have some downsides though and I eventually chose to cut it.
In regards to Diamond Valley.. it's better than High Market imo because the lifegain is really damn good. 6life each time I sac Child or Sun Titan with my Nim Deathmantle combo is way better than 1life per. Is that truly worth the price difference? Nope. I wouldn't be running it if I wasn't proxying it (same with Tabernacle).
Hope that helps.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
I'm surprised you don't run high market (not as good as valley but still very good) or corpse dance. Corpse dance is INSANE. Also, why oblivion stone? I play it almost everywhere else, but here it seems sort of redundant. Also I sort of barfed at rites of flourishing. not a fan of horn of greed either. they both seem like kingmakers.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Ah, forgot to update. I took out Lonely Sandbar for High Market.
I go for Fool's Demise over Corpse Dance. They're not exactly the same but I like the added flexibility of Demise. Sometimes I want my Oracle to survive a Child wipe, for example.
Oblivion Stone is something I can tutor for when Child is tucked and I need a wipe or someone drops something nasty like Blood Moon and I need a wipe. Not an absolutely necessary card but more of a meta call.
Rites and Horn are absurdly good here. The latter especially. My opponents never get close to as much value as I do. If Horn sticks around I usually win the game in the next few turns.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
i run fool's demise too, but corpse dance is just absurd. just incredibly powerful, and so impossible to stop with boseiju. fool's demise has some fun flexibility, but it's much easier to stop. instant-speed removal 2-for-1s you, and it can't be protected from counters. Two removal spells break it, and if the second one is a tuck...bummer for you. Plus it lets your opponents have more control over when child goes off - they can force your hand with removal. Corpse dance you can wait until you absolutely need to wrath to put child onto the board.
you know horn only works with playing lands, right? no double-draws off fetches and most ramp spells don't help. I only see a few cards that give you extra drops. I mean I can see it giving you a (semi) reliable 2 draws a turn, but I wouldn't consider that worth it when the rest of the table as a whole is probably drawing quite a bit more.
Rites is one of my all-time least favorite cards. Everyone else gets MORE milage since they get first draws, and giving non-green decks extra land drops seems like suicide to me, especially since i see no counterspells in your deck. Whenever I see group-hug decks pilot it, things always get stupid in a big hurry, and rarely in a huggy way.
Also I have a general prejudice against any nonland permanents in this deck, if you're really trying to get CPS called on you (via abusing your child
btw, what's with nomad stadium? i don't get it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'll give Corpse Dance a shot. Probably take out Oblivion Stone for it and hope to draw into it for testing.
I have 7 cards that give me extra land
dropsplays (the ones that trigger Horn). 8 if you count Yawg's Will letting me replay any of the previous 7. It gets so nasty. My playgroup knows that it must be destroyed immediately. Even then, I can recur it quite easily.Rites has always been good to me. It's no Horn but it's still works great. The opponents get to draw first, true. They'll get an extra land or two and then they'll run out of lands to play. I won't run out of lands to play. That's the difference. You don't get the same mileage as the guy with 56 lands, 10 fetches, crucible, yawg's will, tilling treefolk, and other absurd hand-fillers like treasure hunt and as nauseum. And if people leave me alone because I'm "helping" them, then that's a nice bonus.
You underestimate my recursion. Planeswalkers, instants, and sorceries are harder for me to get back, but the rest is easy, especially artifacts. I have tons of ways of getting back artifacts. It's not just Volrath's Stronghold and stuff. One of my biggest engines is Nim Deathmantle. Nim Deathmantle + Eternal Witness / Sun Titan + Sac Outlet = tons of value. Sure, destroy a piece of that, and I'll recur it. Exiling it is the only way to truly stop me. Blowing up my own Azusa is not a problem. She'll be back if I need her!
Raw lifegain. Like you said, Child gets hated a ton, so I need to get some life back mid/lategame. Diamond Valley is bestest, but stadium + crucible is alright too.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
I wouldn't "hope to draw into" corpse dance, it's usually tutor target #2 for me (#1 being intuition, which I usually use to set up lftl + sac out + boseiju/cavern/fetch/VS/emeria/strip, or genesis + ewit + glen elendra archmage if i'm feeling weird and I think I can get away with it). If I happen to have a sac outlet already, then it's usually tutor target #1.
you're running more extra land drops that me so I guess I'll take your word about it for the horn. I still have no intention to play it, though.
I don't doubt that hitting an extra land drop is nice for your deck, but exploration gives you that, asymmetrically, for 1 mana instead of 3, and doesn't give your enemies huge advantages. Plus they could be playing more draw that enables them to get double drops all day. Giving a good mono-blue deck double land drops and extra draws seems really dangerous to me, and you have so little control outside of child, which still can't really be properly abused without corpse dance. If someone drops a consecrated sphinx so they're drawing 8+ cards every turn cycle and hitting extra land drops to boot, I feel like you're going to get stomped instantly.
Hmm, yeah I don't like stadium. But then I also prefer not to run crucible in this deck since I prefer lftl. Since you're going for a more permanent-based deck maybe it makes more sense. I also can get diamond valley way more reliably.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
And thank you guys for the discussion. I've been mostly going at this by myself for a long while. Glad to have this going on.
Nim Deathmantle was in my list years ago and got cut. I was using it for E Witness/Child Shenanigans.
Maybeboard in order of want
Thank you for the ideas. I'm gonna tinker soon. For now, I'll update initial post with reference to your builds, and if someone wants to lend theirs, I'll list your list as an alternate build.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
May I see your list?
I concede that rites of flourishing can backfire. I've personally had good experiences but I can see how it can be detrimental. I really do back horn of greed though. My playgroup is rightfully scared of it.
Why not lftl AND crucible? They're both very insane and crucial to the deck.
Yeah, nomad stadium isn't stellar. It's one of the cards I've still kept from the original list. It's a good candidate to replace for cavern of souls or boseiju, both of which I really need to jam into this deck.
Glad I could help. This thread has certainly helped me already.
What type of shenanigans does Nim Deathmantle do with Child? But yeah, it's such a house in my deck. E Witness or Sun Titan, Deathmantle, sac outlet.. good times.
Thanks for the suggestions, Dirk! It's nice to have a second opinion on the list. I've taken out Nomad Stadium, Secluded Steppe, and Oblivion Stone for Boseiju, Cavern, and Corpse Dance.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
My understanding from what a judge told me years ago when the card was spoiled, was that his graveyard trigger still happens. Could be wrong.
Rites is on my cutting board. I just wish there were more one sided permanent-based "play additional land" cards... hate using one off effects like Explore and Summer Bloom. But they may be what I need.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
He goes to the graveyard.. then if you pay 4 does he come back? I've never thought about this before.
There's also Storm Cauldron. Actually something I might consider since I have so many ways to play extra lands each turn. Hmm!
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
It's particularly nasty with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. However, these cards tend to backfire on me at times, and generally sometimes dont help at all. They may be on my chopping block as well. They, like Seismic Assault, seem to be a clunky, but neat thing to play.
However, if you're ahead, they're wincons. They lock people out. They help when Humility comes down and you cant use Child.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Storm Cauldron works well with azusa, oracle, burgeoning, and exploration to help replay lands faster than your opponents. The problem is when you don't have any of those on the field, then you're just as hurt as your opponents.
Global Ruin is another neat one. At my table it's bound to get me 2-4 lands ahead of my opponents. The problem is that since my deck is geared to spewing out so many lands so fast, I'll probably be losing just as much, if not more, lands overall as my opponents. I have crucible, life from the loam, tilling treefolk, sun titan, and eternal witness to get them back. Again the problem is whether the risk is worth the reward.
Interesting choices.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR
yes, he returns to play. nim deathmantle will still be dead though. the equip part obviously fails to happen.
My list is on my old phone which is dead, but I'm charging it up. Can't seem to find it on my computer anywhere, unfortunately.
I don't run crucible because my deck relies heavily on locking people down with child of alara. I usually wrath every turn, or at a minimum every other turn, usually starting on turn 5-6. recurring crucible is too much effort to do that often. Actually I don't really have any good ways to recur artifacts at all iirc, just creatures. I guess I could use ewit but that's a lot of effort. I agree that it's great for most decks in this vein but I really can't support any non-land permanents that I don't want being destroyed in my build.
personally i wouldn't take out the cycling lands, I love 'em with lftl, but it's your call.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Doesn't repeated Global Ruin take out all of your utility lands? And make it difficult to get to the ~11 lands in play board state (Maze's End and Valakut)? Since Global Ruin is working so well for you, why hasn't your meta adjusted to include Armageddon/Ruination (stronger cards) and hated you out?
Crucible is pretty strong for a lands.dec, especially when you get Azusa/Exploration going.
LftL needs 2 cycling lands and/or Exploration/Azusa involved to get out of control. With one cycling one, you're just drawing one a turn and dredging 3. With 2 cycling lands, you're drawing 2 and better protect LftL from exile. So you might as well play all 5 of the cycling lands.
11 bad lands can easily replace 7 forests and 4 other cards.
Going to find a cut for Jace TMS
sure, global ruin kills my sac outlets and such, which is why I either hold them or make sure I have a lftl. If you wipe with child and then global ruin it's pretty brutal on most decks. I don't run maze's end or valakut. I don't get to play this deck hardly ever, everyone hated it too much. Only if I go to a new group, and even then, they usually want me to switch soon
crucible is great, but not for my deck.
lftl is perfectly great with 1 cycler and some fetches, just making sure you hit your drops. It's also great with tolaria west. You only need 1 cycler to protect it very well from exile.
i'm confused what you mean about the bad lands replacing forests and other cards.
i have a hard time believing jace is worth it in this deck. speaking as a guy who has one.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I considered jace for the brainstorms, which id assume would be killer with all our shuffle effects. However, he might paint a target on your head more than garruk would. Hes performed well for me so far.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I'm confused as well since if you're going to call gates bad cards, might as well call the forests bad cards also.
Using LftL just to hit land drops is acceptable. But that's pretty weak compared to how it could be utilized. If drawing one card a turn is fine, 1 cycling land is fine. But might as well play more than 1 as you also suggested.
I guess no non-land permanent is worth it in your deck.
Also speaking as a guy who has one even though it doesn't matter.
My baby deck almost never casts baby; I rely on huge land dumping/deck thinning, and only utilize baby when I need to clear a troublesome permanent or two. By utilizing baby in this manner, my deck is not considered "Degenerate" by my playgroup.
My finishers are mainly: maze lands, Debt to the deathless, blind obedience, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen (fun w/ bounce lands & Patron of the Moon), and Borborygmos Enraged.
I currently run Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, riftstone portal to protect against blood moon type effects. There are no basic lands in my build. Currently at 57 land, but that fluctuates as sets come out.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
Why would that follow? Forests are fine and necessary and don't etbt. And can be hit with basic land ramp. Although 7 is sort of a lot, I think I run 1-2.
I think I run 3(?) cyclers in the deck but that doesn't mean you're getting more than 1 reliably. But as long as you're getting back 3 lands each time I think it's plenty powerful, and fetches usually provide that easily. dumping stuff in the grave is also really good in general.
I run nonland permanents, but most of them are fine to kill (i.e. STE, glen-elendra archmage, genesis). I think glen elendra is the only one I don't want dead, but persist makes it reasonable.
My reason behind not liking jace is that I don't think this deck can reasonably recur him or protect him. Pretty much any evasion can get to him, and there's very little targeted hate to stop attacks getting through. I wouldn't anticipate getting more than 1 brainstorm out of him before he eats it for good.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I guess an underlying issue with the deck that you guys touched upon is people disliking the deck because of the constant threat of wrath. You hold the board hostage with the looming threat of wipe so people will target you. Because people target you, you wrath early and often. Because you wrath early and often, people don't like the deck. It's a vicious cycle.
I've been slowly tweaking my list to feature more ways to defend myself without having to constantly wrath the board. Maze of Ith and Kor Haven are obvious but I've also included the fatter manlands, which do an okay job defending if necessary. My most recent inclusion has been Dragonmaster Outcast. It's no Avenger Zendikar, but she costs a mere 1 mana and protection from flyers is highly relevant. I haven't had a chance to test her out yet.
I asked my playgroup what their thoughts were on my Child and they said they like playing against my deck because it keeps the more competitive players from getting out of control. They'll still gang up and try to dismantle first since I'm holding a gun to their board, but they like my deck being in the game. In fact, in every game the people who are losing will work with me to get Child to pop -- and then promptly exile my GY / try to steal or tuck my general when they get a better position.
If your playgroup isn't like my playgroup and they dislike your "wrath all day every day" strat then you should consider running something more along the lines of OP's list. More threats, less boom.
UBRThraximundar, Tribal ZombiesUBR
WURZedruu's Great TradesWUR