Fixed many of the broken links, and expanded on talking about different sections.
In addition, I replaced Reclaim with Noxious Revival. I plan to put Sun Titan back in as well; his only disadvantage being a white creature in a deck with GSZ.
I've also found the Thespian Stage + Dark Depths combo to be nasty good in this deck. I've been pulling it out turns 3-5 consistently and it is a very easy wincon to chase, while building another and protecting yourself.
In addition, I've never quite won with it (playing politics with it mostly), but Strip Mine is causing alot of nerd rage when used with "Play more land" abilities.
It also does make me sad to replace it, but Seismic Assault finally gets the cut. It honestly has never won me a single game but once with Creeping Renaissance.
Sun Titan comes back in. It sucks to lose something special to the original core and idea of the deck, but it was a really weak and awkward wincon.
In more testing, Marit Lage is owning players left and right, and pretty early on too. The new legendary rule, while fairly lame, has power up this deck considerably.
- Creeping Renaissance + Yawg Win
Easy choice with Seismic Assault gone. Can grab me lands, Crucible, Prismatic Omen, etc etc.
- Witchbane Orb + Recycle
Hoping to see if this works out, otherwise I'll add in some more ramp/removal. In addition, play Reliquary Tower afterwards for funsies
I'm sorry, but it's too much winmore, or a dead draw. This deck runs almost equal triggered and activated abilities, so neither double trigger artifact is useful. If their abilities were triggered and costed no mana, it would be different.
For now, given we sacrifice alot of lands and can fall behind other players, WW is an auto include. Especially when you get two lands behind due to Marit Lage.
Didnt really need more land tutors, but library manipulation is always necessary. Top never seems to come up for me, and another semi Top card will help us find what we need quicker.
In addition, given the recent WU additions, manabase changes will be need to be made. I will definitely need to proxy in Tundra to be fetchable with Flooded Strand and Krosan Verge, and probably Scrubland too. Taiga wouldnt also be bad, since red is hard to come by and green fetches are plentiful.
Won another game last night, and got 2nd in the next.
First game was by luck, had my GY exiled along with DD, KOTR, Sun Titan, and Glacial Chasm. Got a mystical tutor and had valakut and thespian's stage out. Tutored for scapeshift. Had one turn to survive. Buddy swung to eliminate the Kaalia player because I had 17 life, his creature had 16 power. Kaalia player had 4 life.
Next turn, I Scapeshifted for 60. Bye!
Second game I made some serious misplays, but survived long enough to tie 2nd essentially. Planar Cleansing meant I could keep DD combo, but Omnath kept himself, doubling cube, and other goodies.
I will start making count of every kill I get with each wincon on the first post, to give an estimate on what is the easiest/most common killcon.
I run more lands and have a heavier emphasis on tutoring, with a lesser variety of win-cons. My primary win-con is Maze's End.
When I play MTG, I generally prefer to play decks with high permanent counts such as my favorite deck, Enchantress. So I took a hand at building a lands.dec. I hadn't paid attention to MTG for over a year, so I needed some guides (especially for the new playables since released). Although the impetus was solely my own, I sourced the skeleton of my build from: here. I took that skeleton instead of some of the others available because of Maze's End.
In many ways, Child of Alara is the best lands.dec general one can have. You get to use all 5 colors to field the most efficient tools for the job and EDH is very permanent-centric. While, we need lots of permanents in play as well. They are mostly lands. Child of Alara is also a 6/6 for 5cc with trample in a pinch.
In the same way, I feel that Maze's End is just the best way to win with a lands deck in EDH. Unlike the other win-cons which deal lethal to other players, it just wins the game instead. And all you have to do is advance your regular game-plan as you would with any deck, hit land drops. Maze's End can both grind wins and win from an empty board.
With my list, I don't think I can really cut ~3-5 cards and replace them with cards that would function better. I'm glad that you took out Seismic Assault. It's not that great and the Sunder/Creeping Renaissance shenanigans aren't either. Even if they are, Valakut and Borborygmos Enraged do the same thing but better. I think the biggest department you can upgrade in are your creatures. With all the colors available to you, you should be able to power up. For example, if I can activate Weathered Wayfarer I already feel like I'm losing the game big time.
In the same way, I feel that Maze's End is just the best way to win with a lands deck in EDH. Unlike the other win-cons which deal lethal to other players, it just wins the game instead. And all you have to do is advance your regular game-plan as you would with any deck, hit land drops. Maze's End can both grind wins and win from an empty board.
Disagree, on a number of points, some personal from my playgroups, some in deck design.
Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
Maze's End wouldnt work in my meta. End of story. The single target permanent destruction/exile, on top of board wipes, wouldnt allow for a clunky all-in wincon like that. In addition of needing all of those gates. Not just two lands like Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, but 10 specific lands.
With my list, I don't think I can really cut ~3-5 cards and replace them with cards that would function better. I'm glad that you took out Seismic Assault. It's not that great and the Sunder/Creeping Renaissance shenanigans aren't either. Even if they are, Valakut and Borborygmos Enraged do the same thing but better.
Kind of. Valakut and Seismic Assault are both clunky and require many pieces to do any real damage in a 40 life multiplayer format. But copying Valakut is where it becomes better. The previous poster has a deck based around them that supposedly works. It's focused on those wincons. This focuses on Valakut, Dark Depths, and Worm Harvest/Last Stand.
In addition,
For example, if I can activate Weathered Wayfarer I already feel like I'm losing the game big time.
Your deck, much like the previous posters, runs more lands, and activating him WOULD mean you're failing. However, one of my common T4 plays is activating Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage for Marit Lage. I'm suddenly behind by 2 lands. WW makes up for that. Ramp is big in my meta too, so I'll typically always have a target player that is at least one land ahead of me. So you're not wrong, but in this deck, (and im still testing), he's better than he's given credit. Best part is, "any land". Which is why I dont run Land Tax.
I think the biggest department you can upgrade in are your creatures. With all the colors available to you, you should be able to power up.
On nongreen creatures - Biggest annoyance is not being able to grab them with GSZ.
I agree, I'm still tinkering with them. Sun Titan just came back in. Bringer of the Black Dawn could be pretty interesting. I'll put him on my maybeboard.
Trinket Mage - considered. Debating still.
Dark Confidant - considered, almost put in, but once I removed Ad Nauseam, I upped the avg CMC a bit, and decided against it. Glacial Chasm hurts me enough. He could make an appearance still, I'm not throwing the idea out.
Consecrated Sphinx - considered... I do have a problem with card draw, but when I have that much mana, I'm either winning the game, or needing an answer. He does neither until they draw, and I run mostly sorceries. I'll proxy, like the others.
Avenger of Zendikar is worse in this build than Rampaging Baloths, and here's why: If Avenger is removed (which he will be given how big of a target he is) and quickly usually, I just have 0/1 or 1/2 plants. Baloths is less of a big target, doesn't benefit opponent's on a Bribery as much, but pumps out 4/4 beasts, and tramples on his own. I've tested both, and yes, AoV is better in a 67-75+ land build, but in my 47-48 land build, no :/
In many ways, Child of Alara is the best lands.dec general one can have. You get to use all 5 colors to field the most efficient tools for the job and EDH is very permanent-centric. While, we need lots of permanents in play as well. They are mostly lands. Child of Alara is also a 6/6 for 5cc with trample in a pinch.
Agree, which is why I dont run many permanents I cannot recur easily.
All in all, you've given me a few ideas. I'll test em out soon. This deck is really coming together!
Its not a different deck just because it uses a different wincon.
Either way everydeck should have multiple wincons.
If you argue that you can argue that you arent a lands deck. You only run 47 lands.
Thats not even 50% lands.
The legacy deck ran 62% lands.
Borb 2.0 is amazing, I tell people all the time that he's the real commander of my child deck.
Seismic assault while not as good, is still good to have as redundancy. In 100 card singleton you want redundancy.
A lot of your card draw should just be the urza cycle lands, more ways to find Life From the Loam, Ad nauseum and Treasure Hunt.
Id lower your curve, you dont need the 6cc+ creatures.
Horn of Greed is one card youre missing, you will almost always benefit from it more than anyone else.
If you want another tutor, Intuition makes ridiculously unfair piles in this deck.
Building a way to continuously sac/recur child every turn outside of volrath's stronghold is a good ability to have. Genesis and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are my favorite. We run enough duals and fetches that getting emeria online isnt that hard. Loyal Retainers works great with intuition piles, and getting back child/azusa/borb 2.0
Its not a different deck just because it uses a different wincon.
Either way everydeck should have multiple wincons.
If you argue that you can argue that you arent a lands deck. You only run 47 lands.
Thats not even 50% lands.
The legacy deck ran 62% lands.
I didn't know there was a minimum land count to consider your deck a lands deck! Hah! Please point me to the thread where that is stated This deck doesnt really need more lands than it has, if you took the chance to pilot it. I've tested yours, it's fun, but it runs completely differently. And also, I must note, this is based off of the Legacy deck Lands, and the Modern Scapeshift decks, actually. It's not meant to copy them, obviously, but to utilize a unique land package to win the game.
In addition, the Modern Scapeshift deck runs 25 lands. 41%. Lower than my land % eh? Your argument holds no merit, unless for some odd reason, i should combine those numbers and use that land % (round to 52%). And cut what? For what reason? So I can meet your imaginary merits for a "lands" deck? Seriously, where did you think this up?
Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
What I said in a previous post. It's a different BUILD. Build. Say it with me. Please note how in other constructed decks, some decks play different colors, like Scapeshift with RUG and RG. That is what is called a different "build" of a deck, which is what I was illustrating. If you need more examples, head over to the Modern/Legacy/Standard subforums to see what different builds look like. Because it turns out, that's true of what you say, that multiple wincons are needed, but if my lack of 20 lands means Seismic Assault is a dead card? Then I wont run it! Simple as that. I dont need to spell it out for you any more than I already have. I even have listed your build of this deck in my opening post, (not linking to it) to illustrate the different ways to take the deck. But you somehow only see your idea of the deck as the only possible version, from your posts.
Seriously, I've taken your opinions and considerations, and made changes based on them even. And for you to berate me and my deck in this thread for not doing as you say is quite childish, man. If you have nothing substantial to offer beyond telling me to "netdeck your deck", please stop posting.
I'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. The BB helps in some games, while in others I wish I could gain 6 life. If I can get a few cards unproxied soon, I'll proxy Diamond Valley for Phyrexian Tower. The lifegain with Glacial Chasm would be killer. I love the possibilities!
global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.
corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.
I'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. I like it over the 1 life sometimes. meh.
global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.
corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.
I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
I can see it being stupid with a marit lage token out.
Disagree, on a number of points, some personal from my playgroups, some in deck design.
1. Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
2. Maze's End wouldnt work in my meta. End of story. The single target permanent destruction/exile, on top of board wipes, wouldnt allow for a clunky all-in wincon like that. In addition of needing all of those gates. Not just two lands like Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, but 10 specific lands.
3. Kind of. Valakut and Seismic Assault are both clunky and require many pieces to do any real damage in a 40 life multiplayer format. But copying Valakut is where it becomes better. The previous poster has a deck based around them that supposedly works. It's focused on those wincons. This focuses on Valakut, Dark Depths, and Worm Harvest/Last Stand.
4. On nongreen creatures - Biggest annoyance is not being able to grab them with GSZ. I agree, I'm still tinkering with them. Sun Titan just came back in. Bringer of the Black Dawn could be pretty interesting. I'll put him on my maybeboard.
5. Avenger of Zendikar is worse in this build than Rampaging Baloths, and here's why: If Avenger is removed (which he will be given how big of a target he is) and quickly usually, I just have 0/1 or 1/2 plants. Baloths is less of a big target, doesn't benefit opponent's on a Bribery as much, but pumps out 4/4 beasts, and tramples on his own. I've tested both, and yes, AoV is better in a 67-75+ land build, but in my 47-48 land build, no :/
All in all, you've given me a few ideas. I'll test em out soon. This deck is really coming together!
1. Well, I don't consider it a problem per se. I do run different cards because my deck is focused on a different thing. Same deck, just a different build. It's not too far fetched to see that my deck can morph into yours and vice versa. It's like how in Modern Jund and Junk are really the same deck with different cards. Or how U/R Splinter Twin is more combo focused than the URW versions.
Since our decks are completely based on permanents, it can be like assembling a puzzle. Prismatic Omen is a piece for you, that let's you Last Stand and Valakut. And I don't even bother with Terra Eternal and Sacred Ground. Armageddon and Ruination are too good to even bother trying to play around and Terra Eternal gets in the way of the Dust Bowl/Strip Mine/Wasteland package that I can abuse more than my opponents.
2. I'm surprised that Maze's End wouldn't work in your meta or any meta for that matter. Especially the END OF STORY part. My explanation really boils down to 2 parts.
A.) All of the same things which stop Maze's End also stop the Dark Depths kill that you're running. For instance, there are even more exile/sac effects to stop Marit Lage (a creature) than there are that stop lands. Even Maze's Ith can stop Marit Lage. Wasteland stops Dark Depths just the same as it does Maze's End. It's unexpected that you run Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal and are concerned with disruption to the 10 gate plan. While I don't, and I still go for it.
B.) Maze's End is not clunky. For one, the opportunity cost for running the Maze's End win-con is negligible. So all I have to do is run 10 more citp duals in my lands.dec? No problem The CITP drawback is mitigated because the land count is so high. I can choose and time my land drops to the turns when I need to cast spells. They also almost take up NO ADDITIONAL SLOTS in my build. If I wasn't running 10+1 gates, 5 of those spots would be Zen fetches anyways and Maze's End would just be Thawing Glaciers instead. So the Maze's End win-con is actually only taking up 5 spots. And those five spots would just be better mana-fixing lands (-> the cycle of 5 Worldwake Man-Dual Lands)....so in reality I'm just trading in 5 really weak win-cons for one that wins the game immediately. FWIW, I'd argue that the gates are just as strong as the ruin cards that you run (since you run Wayfarer and I run Maze's End). So I'm basically using 0 slots.
Maze's End is also not clunky in that if someone exiles a gate it doesn't matter. Valakut/Last Stand wouldn't work without Prismatic Omen. Gates are gates, they make mana and aren't dead cards. Exile of lands mostly only happens in graveyards. Most games, the gates aren't in the yard. If LD is the puts it there, you have Sacred Ground and Terra Eternal to try and fight it. But if the exile does happen, C'est La Vie. Win another way, just like if someone exiled your Valakut...it's the same thing.
3. Dark Depths is near the top of the list on win-cons as well. Worm Harvest is another case to run more lands. Worm Harvest also can get exiled too. Why not max out on fetches if that's a win-con you want to focus on? 7 basic forests is a lot.
4. Not being able to GSZ isn't a minus. It's the other way around. Being able to GSZ is just a plus. Running 5 colors means a lot of the best cards aren't going to be green. Black Bringer is insane and happens to work with Terminus too well!
5. Avenger of Zendikar is better than Rampaging Baloths in every build (even Beast tribal). It's just a better card. You described the bad way to play Avenger so that doesn't even count. No one should ever just plop it down and passes without a land drop. Avenger/land/pass+fetchland next turn and you're already better than Baloths...and you don't need 50+ lands to do that. Even non-lands.dec run Avenger over Baloths. If you want both that's different. But if you run one, it's Avenger. Why would they target a lands.dec with Bribery? Does Bribery mean that you won't play good cards like Consecrated Sphinx, because I'd rather bride that instead.
A lot of your card draw should just be the urza cycle lands, more ways to find Life From the Loam, Ad nauseum and Treasure Hunt.
Id lower your curve, you dont need the 6cc+ creatures. Horn of Greed is one card youre missing, you will almost always benefit from it more than anyone else.
If you want another tutor, Intuition makes ridiculously unfair piles in this deck.
Building a way to continuously sac/recur child every turn outside of volrath's stronghold is a good ability to have. Genesis and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are my favorite. We run enough duals and fetches that getting emeria online isnt that hard. Loyal Retainers works great with intuition piles, and getting back child/azusa/borb 2.0
The Life from the Loam engine is good. The Urza cycle lands are crappy and would take up 5 more slots. I know I mentioned that the CITP drawback isn't too much for the gates, but at some point playing even more CITP...it will.
Intuition is awesome, I want to play it. But since I don't do the Dark Depths, I don't feel the need to play it. And I want to focus on the tutors that get Scapeshift. Scapeshift and 11 lands in play is my target most games.
Getting Emeria online is tough. You won't just do it naturally. You either need Prismatic Omen or dedicating all your search for plains. Loyal Retainers would just be a neat little trick. Not worth it.
I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.
I am exited for the Theros release. Legendary lands are interesting. And it's always easy to be greedy with 5 colors. All the playables...even though being a lands.dec heavily influences what you can run.
1. Well, I don't consider it a problem per se. I do run different cards because my deck is focused on a different thing. Same deck, just a different build. It's not too far fetched to see that my deck can morph into yours and vice versa. It's like how in Modern Jund and Junk are really the same deck with different cards. Or how U/R Splinter Twin is more combo focused than the URW versions.
Since our decks are completely based on permanents, it can be like assembling a puzzle. Prismatic Omen is a piece for you, that let's you Last Stand and Valakut. And I don't even bother with Terra Eternal and Sacred Ground. Armageddon and Ruination are too good to even bother trying to play around and Terra Eternal gets in the way of the Dust Bowl/Strip Mine/Wasteland package that I can abuse more than my opponents.
2. I'm surprised that Maze's End wouldn't work in your meta or any meta for that matter. Especially the END OF STORY part. My explanation really boils down to 2 parts.
A.) All of the same things which stop Maze's End also stop the Dark Depths kill that you're running. For instance, there are even more exile/sac effects to stop Marit Lage (a creature) than there are that stop lands. Even Maze's Ith can stop Marit Lage. Wasteland stops Dark Depths just the same as it does Maze's End. It's unexpected that you run Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal and are concerned with disruption to the 10 gate plan. While I don't, and I still go for it.
B.) Maze's End is not clunky. For one, the opportunity cost for running the Maze's End win-con is negligible. So all I have to do is run 10 more citp duals in my lands.dec? No problem The CITP drawback is mitigated because the land count is so high. I can choose and time my land drops to the turns when I need to cast spells. They also almost take up NO ADDITIONAL SLOTS in my build. If I wasn't running 10+1 gates, 5 of those spots would be Zen fetches anyways and Maze's End would just be Thawing Glaciers instead. So the Maze's End win-con is actually only taking up 5 spots. And those five spots would just be better mana-fixing lands (-> the cycle of 5 Worldwake Man-Dual Lands)....so in reality I'm just trading in 5 really weak win-cons for one that wins the game immediately. FWIW, I'd argue that the gates are just as strong as the ruin cards that you run (since you run Wayfarer and I run Maze's End). So I'm basically using 0 slots.
Maze's End is also not clunky in that if someone exiles a gate it doesn't matter. Valakut/Last Stand wouldn't work without Prismatic Omen. Gates are gates, they make mana and aren't dead cards. Exile of lands mostly only happens in graveyards. Most games, the gates aren't in the yard. If LD is the puts it there, you have Sacred Ground and Terra Eternal to try and fight it. But if the exile does happen, C'est La Vie. Win another way, just like if someone exiled your Valakut...it's the same thing.
3. Dark Depths is near the top of the list on win-cons as well. Worm Harvest is another case to run more lands. Worm Harvest also can get exiled too. Why not max out on fetches if that's a win-con you want to focus on? 7 basic forests is a lot.
4. Not being able to GSZ isn't a minus. It's the other way around. Being able to GSZ is just a plus. Running 5 colors means a lot of the best cards aren't going to be green. Black Bringer is insane and happens to work with Terminus too well!
5. Avenger of Zendikar is better than Rampaging Baloths in every build (even Beast tribal). It's just a better card. You described the bad way to play Avenger so that doesn't even count. No one should ever just plop it down and passes without a land drop. Avenger/land/pass+fetchland next turn and you're already better than Baloths...and you don't need 50+ lands to do that. Even non-lands.dec run Avenger over Baloths. If you want both that's different. But if you run one, it's Avenger. Why would they target a lands.dec with Bribery? Does Bribery mean that you won't play good cards like Consecrated Sphinx, because I'd rather bride that instead.
Dark Depths and Valakut combo arent 11 cards though, just 2 and 2+2 optional extras that are useful outside of it. :/ I just, in my meta, dont have time/cant assemble 10 gates plus maze's end. Our Omnath player saves Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mines for key lands. If he hits a gate and I cant immediately get it back before targeted graveyard exile (or the entire thing), those lands become really meh. That's what I meant by clunky. And oh boy, he does save that for me. I'd like to see how yours works on tapped out in testplaying to see if the Gate strat works for your build.
And you're right, the anti LD cards are really bad and sometimes Terra Eternal is counterintuitive, but there's always some surprise player that plays Land D too, and then they become useful. I really wanna take them out but you know, the second I do, rut roh.
edit: forgot to say, DD combo is best activated EOT before your turn, or in response to land destruction.
Dark Depths and Valakut combo arent 11 cards though, just 2 and 2+2 optional extras that are useful outside of it. :/ I just, in my meta, dont have time/cant assemble 10 gates plus maze's end. Our Omnath player saves Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mines for key lands. If he hits a gate and I cant immediately get it back before targeted graveyard exile (or the entire thing), those lands become really meh. That's what I meant by clunky. And oh boy, he does save that for me. I'd like to see how yours works on tapped out in testplaying to see if the Gate strat works for your build.
edit: forgot to say, DD combo is best activated EOT before your turn, or in response to land destruction.
Well I tried my best to explain how conceptually in 50+ land build, Maze's End doesn't cost any card slots (you just play the gates instead of other mana-fixers). You can still refer to it as 11 slots, but I wouldn't run it if in reality it was 11 slots. Dark Depths is also similarly compact, taking just 1 slot. The only accomadation one has to make for that is to play Realms Uncharted (DD/Petrified Field/Thespian's Stage/Vesuva) and/or Intuition in the tutor package.
Dark Depths (on it's own) is more meh than a guildgate. It doesn't even produce mana.
That same Omnath player doesn't use Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mine to stop you from Dark Depths? You know those cards also stop you from getting a 20/20. You should never have to response to Strip Mine with tripping DD. At least if you play against players who fully understand the rules. The appropriate reaction from your opponents is to LD in response to you trying to trip DD. If you kill DD with the sac trigger on the stack, you don't get the 20/20.
If you have enough time to assemble Valakut via Scapeshift + Prismatic Omen, then surely you have enough time to assemble 10 gate via Scapeshift. LD disrupts 10 gate, but it also disrupts Valakut.
If I replace Petrified Field with Valakut and make a single cut for Prismatic Omen, that's all it would take to put a Valakut package in my deck My deck is already built for that since Wild Research is already a part of my tutor package!
they're learning that you have to target the land in between land plays to stop the combo or in response to me cracking,now. Haha
Not really budget, but I like to minimize proxies to not offend those too much that arent huge on a large amount of them. And its a matter of finding the cards to trade for! haven't been able to find exploration for the life of me, sp I'm just about to order it.
Wild research I'm iffy on. The random discard is what is stopping me. I'm afraid ill dump omen and be without recursion. Its worth a test slot though!
And I'm about ready to redo some of the mana base. Colors and amounts of them have changed alot.
Ill take another look atyour list tonight fpr ideas and test it out too!
I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.
Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
they're learning that you have to target the land in between land plays to stop the combo or in response to me cracking,now. Haha
Not really budget, but I like to minimize proxies to not offend those too much that arent huge on a large amount of them. And its a matter of finding the cards to trade for! haven't been able to find exploration for the life of me, sp I'm just about to order it.
If I had to trade 100% for any deck, I'd never have the deck that I want.
At first, I wondered why your manabase wasn't 10 fetch 20 duals.
Wild research I'm iffy on. The random discard is what is stopping me. I'm afraid ill dump omen and be without recursion. Its worth a test slot though!
And I'm about ready to redo some of the mana base. Colors and amounts of them have changed alot.
Ill take another look atyour list tonight fpr ideas and test it out too!
Enchantments aren't the easiest to re-cur, but that's why Sun Titan is so beastly in our deck. He even turns Entomb into a small pseudo-Tinker. I try to abuse every interaction I can. With Wild Research, all you have to do is hit one time. Every single Enchantment in the lands.dec is gas. Hit Sylvan Library one time early in the game and you'll have a full hand for the rest of the game or hit Exploration/Burgeoning when you need. I also use it to hit removal when I'm desperate. Wild Research definitely isn't a staple or anything. It's a card that I like a lot and wanted to play it.
I basically play it over Intuition. Intuition gets 3 cards that Sun Titan can get back!
Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running
tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
I just don't think Diamond Valley is good enough, budget or no budget.
Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).
3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.
Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).
3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.
Miren is....ok. I took it out of my build. The problem, basically, is that child is a nuke waiting to go off. Which means that you're holding the table for ransom - people won't want to play more permanents until it's off the table. All of which is great, except that if you should tap out of your sac outlet, then people will be VERY happy to take the opportunity to tuck child. And especially when you have a mana-intensive sac outlet like miren, backwoods, and a few other even worse ones I could name but forgot, people will save their tuck spells UNTIL you're tapped out. I've definitely had child tucked while having miren on the field but without the mana to use it - WITH couterspell backup. People tucked it twice.
So, if you want to use child for early control, dropping it on turn 5-6 with miren means people will probably tuck it ASAP before you untap with miren. As long as your sac outlet is no-mana-required, though, like market, tower, and valley, you can keep it available much, much easier, and avoid playing into tuck.
It depends on how much you want to abuse child, basically. If you're rarely using it, then maybe being able to use the land for mana is worth it. For my build, I always always always wanted a sac outlet ready to go, though, and 6 life is pretty amazing, making diamond valley an outstanding card. I'd rank it almost as good as tower, better than market, leagues better than anything that requires mana. But its strength does vary by build.
How is Diamond Valley stronger than High Market? They do the exact same thing except High Market makes mana. 6 life is not worth the mana.
I'd contend that while Diamond Valley costs nothing to activate (therefore giving you a convenient turn 6 timing on Child), the opportunity cost of having yet another land which makes zero mana is very high.
Having a cheap sac activation for Child of Alara is great when you need to sweep the board on the spot. But it's not free. It'll cost you a land drop that makes no mana.
If you absolutely need to wipe the board, that means there's other things that might need tucking more than your Child. And that's IF they have a tuck spell.
I think you're overly concerned with tuck effects when you're discounting Miren.
1.) Your opponent could just as easily tuck your sac outlet land.
2.) Your opponent could just as easily disrupt how you bring Child back.
3.) And if your build is much more controlling and centered around Child of Alara, having Miren in addition to Tower/Market/Valley is amazing.
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In addition, I replaced Reclaim with Noxious Revival. I plan to put Sun Titan back in as well; his only disadvantage being a white creature in a deck with GSZ.
I've also found the Thespian Stage + Dark Depths combo to be nasty good in this deck. I've been pulling it out turns 3-5 consistently and it is a very easy wincon to chase, while building another and protecting yourself.
In addition, I've never quite won with it (playing politics with it mostly), but Strip Mine is causing alot of nerd rage when used with "Play more land" abilities.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Sun Titan comes back in. It sucks to lose something special to the original core and idea of the deck, but it was a really weak and awkward wincon.
In more testing, Marit Lage is owning players left and right, and pretty early on too. The new legendary rule, while fairly lame, has power up this deck considerably.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Not worth the cut.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I never get to cast it most of the time, or there are easier ways to kill someone than those cards. :/ It may come back and throw in Sunder.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Easy choice with Seismic Assault gone. Can grab me lands, Crucible, Prismatic Omen, etc etc.
- Witchbane Orb + Recycle
Hoping to see if this works out, otherwise I'll add in some more ramp/removal. In addition, play Reliquary Tower afterwards for funsies
EDIT: Will be proxying the new M14 Into the Wilds in place of Recycle, and Strionic Resonator in place of Howling Mine.
In addition, Tolaria West will come in as another way to find Thespian Stage, Valakut, and Dark Depths
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I'm sorry, but it's too much winmore, or a dead draw. This deck runs almost equal triggered and activated abilities, so neither double trigger artifact is useful. If their abilities were triggered and costed no mana, it would be different.
For now, given we sacrifice alot of lands and can fall behind other players, WW is an auto include. Especially when you get two lands behind due to Marit Lage.
-1 Tolaria West + Ponder
Didnt really need more land tutors, but library manipulation is always necessary. Top never seems to come up for me, and another semi Top card will help us find what we need quicker.
In addition, given the recent WU additions, manabase changes will be need to be made. I will definitely need to proxy in Tundra to be fetchable with Flooded Strand and Krosan Verge, and probably Scrubland too. Taiga wouldnt also be bad, since red is hard to come by and green fetches are plentiful.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
First game was by luck, had my GY exiled along with DD, KOTR, Sun Titan, and Glacial Chasm. Got a mystical tutor and had valakut and thespian's stage out. Tutored for scapeshift. Had one turn to survive. Buddy swung to eliminate the Kaalia player because I had 17 life, his creature had 16 power. Kaalia player had 4 life.
Next turn, I Scapeshifted for 60. Bye!
Second game I made some serious misplays, but survived long enough to tie 2nd essentially. Planar Cleansing meant I could keep DD combo, but Omnath kept himself, doubling cube, and other goodies.
I will start making count of every kill I get with each wincon on the first post, to give an estimate on what is the easiest/most common killcon.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
So before I post a decklist, could you point me in the right direction?
Use the deck tags, and put all of the card names inside! And yes I'm open to new ideas. I have 3-5 flex slots, currently.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
10 shocks
10 duals
5 Onslaught fetches
5 Onslaught cycling lands
10 Guildgates
I run more lands and have a heavier emphasis on tutoring, with a lesser variety of win-cons. My primary win-con is Maze's End.
When I play MTG, I generally prefer to play decks with high permanent counts such as my favorite deck, Enchantress. So I took a hand at building a lands.dec. I hadn't paid attention to MTG for over a year, so I needed some guides (especially for the new playables since released). Although the impetus was solely my own, I sourced the skeleton of my build from: here. I took that skeleton instead of some of the others available because of Maze's End.
In many ways, Child of Alara is the best lands.dec general one can have. You get to use all 5 colors to field the most efficient tools for the job and EDH is very permanent-centric. While, we need lots of permanents in play as well. They are mostly lands. Child of Alara is also a 6/6 for 5cc with trample in a pinch.
In the same way, I feel that Maze's End is just the best way to win with a lands deck in EDH. Unlike the other win-cons which deal lethal to other players, it just wins the game instead. And all you have to do is advance your regular game-plan as you would with any deck, hit land drops. Maze's End can both grind wins and win from an empty board.
With my list, I don't think I can really cut ~3-5 cards and replace them with cards that would function better. I'm glad that you took out Seismic Assault. It's not that great and the Sunder/Creeping Renaissance shenanigans aren't either. Even if they are, Valakut and Borborygmos Enraged do the same thing but better. I think the biggest department you can upgrade in are your creatures. With all the colors available to you, you should be able to power up. For example, if I can activate Weathered Wayfarer I already feel like I'm losing the game big time.
Let me know your thoughts on my build.
Disagree, on a number of points, some personal from my playgroups, some in deck design.
Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
Maze's End wouldnt work in my meta. End of story. The single target permanent destruction/exile, on top of board wipes, wouldnt allow for a clunky all-in wincon like that. In addition of needing all of those gates. Not just two lands like Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, but 10 specific lands.
Kind of. Valakut and Seismic Assault are both clunky and require many pieces to do any real damage in a 40 life multiplayer format. But copying Valakut is where it becomes better. The previous poster has a deck based around them that supposedly works. It's focused on those wincons. This focuses on Valakut, Dark Depths, and Worm Harvest/Last Stand.
In addition,
Your deck, much like the previous posters, runs more lands, and activating him WOULD mean you're failing. However, one of my common T4 plays is activating Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage for Marit Lage. I'm suddenly behind by 2 lands. WW makes up for that. Ramp is big in my meta too, so I'll typically always have a target player that is at least one land ahead of me.
On nongreen creatures - Biggest annoyance is not being able to grab them with GSZ.
I agree, I'm still tinkering with them. Sun Titan just came back in. Bringer of the Black Dawn could be pretty interesting. I'll put him on my maybeboard.
Trinket Mage - considered. Debating still.
Dark Confidant - considered, almost put in, but once I removed Ad Nauseam, I upped the avg CMC a bit, and decided against it. Glacial Chasm hurts me enough. He could make an appearance still, I'm not throwing the idea out.
Consecrated Sphinx - considered... I do have a problem with card draw, but when I have that much mana, I'm either winning the game, or needing an answer. He does neither until they draw, and I run mostly sorceries. I'll proxy, like the others.
Avenger of Zendikar is worse in this build than Rampaging Baloths, and here's why: If Avenger is removed (which he will be given how big of a target he is) and quickly usually, I just have 0/1 or 1/2 plants. Baloths is less of a big target, doesn't benefit opponent's on a Bribery as much, but pumps out 4/4 beasts, and tramples on his own. I've tested both, and yes, AoV is better in a 67-75+ land build, but in my 47-48 land build, no :/
Agree, which is why I dont run many permanents I cannot recur easily.
All in all, you've given me a few ideas. I'll test em out soon. This deck is really coming together!
Maybeboard
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Either way everydeck should have multiple wincons.
If you argue that you can argue that you arent a lands deck. You only run 47 lands.
Thats not even 50% lands.
The legacy deck ran 62% lands.
Borb 2.0 is amazing, I tell people all the time that he's the real commander of my child deck.
Seismic assault while not as good, is still good to have as redundancy. In 100 card singleton you want redundancy.
A lot of your card draw should just be the urza cycle lands, more ways to find Life From the Loam, Ad nauseum and Treasure Hunt.
Id lower your curve, you dont need the 6cc+ creatures.
Horn of Greed is one card youre missing, you will almost always benefit from it more than anyone else.
If you want another tutor, Intuition makes ridiculously unfair piles in this deck.
Building a way to continuously sac/recur child every turn outside of volrath's stronghold is a good ability to have. Genesis and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are my favorite. We run enough duals and fetches that getting emeria online isnt that hard.
Loyal Retainers works great with intuition piles, and getting back child/azusa/borb 2.0
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I didn't know there was a minimum land count to consider your deck a lands deck! Hah! Please point me to the thread where that is stated
In addition, the Modern Scapeshift deck runs 25 lands. 41%. Lower than my land % eh? Your argument holds no merit, unless for some odd reason, i should combine those numbers and use that land % (round to 52%). And cut what? For what reason? So I can meet your imaginary merits for a "lands" deck? Seriously, where did you think this up?
What I said in a previous post. It's a different BUILD. Build. Say it with me. Please note how in other constructed decks, some decks play different colors, like Scapeshift with RUG and RG. That is what is called a different "build" of a deck, which is what I was illustrating. If you need more examples, head over to the Modern/Legacy/Standard subforums to see what different builds look like. Because it turns out, that's true of what you say, that multiple wincons are needed, but if my lack of 20 lands means Seismic Assault is a dead card? Then I wont run it! Simple as that. I dont need to spell it out for you any more than I already have. I even have listed your build of this deck in my opening post, (not linking to it) to illustrate the different ways to take the deck. But you somehow only see your idea of the deck as the only possible version, from your posts.
Seriously, I've taken your opinions and considerations, and made changes based on them even. And for you to berate me and my deck in this thread for not doing as you say is quite childish, man. If you have nothing substantial to offer beyond telling me to "netdeck your deck", please stop posting.
Thanks.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
also, with your mana base, global ruin is killer.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. The BB helps in some games, while in others I wish I could gain 6 life. If I can get a few cards unproxied soon, I'll proxy Diamond Valley for Phyrexian Tower. The lifegain with Glacial Chasm would be killer. I love the possibilities!
global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.
corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.
Maybeboard in order of want
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
I don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I can see it being stupid with a marit lage token out.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
1. Well, I don't consider it a problem per se. I do run different cards because my deck is focused on a different thing. Same deck, just a different build. It's not too far fetched to see that my deck can morph into yours and vice versa.
Since our decks are completely based on permanents, it can be like assembling a puzzle. Prismatic Omen is a piece for you, that let's you Last Stand and Valakut. And I don't even bother with Terra Eternal and Sacred Ground. Armageddon and Ruination are too good to even bother trying to play around and Terra Eternal gets in the way of the Dust Bowl/Strip Mine/Wasteland package that I can abuse more than my opponents.
2. I'm surprised that Maze's End wouldn't work in your meta or any meta for that matter. Especially the END OF STORY part. My explanation really boils down to 2 parts.
A.) All of the same things which stop Maze's End also stop the Dark Depths kill that you're running. For instance, there are even more exile/sac effects to stop Marit Lage (a creature) than there are that stop lands. Even Maze's Ith can stop Marit Lage. Wasteland stops Dark Depths just the same as it does Maze's End. It's unexpected that you run Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal and are concerned with disruption to the 10 gate plan. While I don't, and I still go for it.
B.) Maze's End is not clunky. For one, the opportunity cost for running the Maze's End win-con is negligible. So all I have to do is run 10 more citp duals in my lands.dec? No problem
Maze's End is also not clunky in that if someone exiles a gate it doesn't matter. Valakut/Last Stand wouldn't work without Prismatic Omen. Gates are gates, they make mana and aren't dead cards. Exile of lands mostly only happens in graveyards. Most games, the gates aren't in the yard. If LD is the puts it there, you have Sacred Ground and Terra Eternal to try and fight it. But if the exile does happen, C'est La Vie. Win another way, just like if someone exiled your Valakut...it's the same thing.
3. Dark Depths is near the top of the list on win-cons as well. Worm Harvest is another case to run more lands. Worm Harvest also can get exiled too. Why not max out on fetches if that's a win-con you want to focus on? 7 basic forests is a lot.
4. Not being able to GSZ isn't a minus. It's the other way around. Being able to GSZ is just a plus. Running 5 colors means a lot of the best cards aren't going to be green. Black Bringer is insane and happens to work with Terminus too well!
5. Avenger of Zendikar is better than Rampaging Baloths in every build (even Beast tribal). It's just a better card. You described the bad way to play Avenger so that doesn't even count. No one should ever just plop it down and passes without a land drop. Avenger/land/pass+fetchland next turn and you're already better than Baloths...and you don't need 50+ lands to do that. Even non-lands.dec run Avenger over Baloths. If you want both that's different. But if you run one, it's Avenger. Why would they target a lands.dec with Bribery? Does Bribery mean that you won't play good cards like Consecrated Sphinx, because I'd rather bride that instead.
The Life from the Loam engine is good. The Urza cycle lands are crappy and would take up 5 more slots. I know I mentioned that the CITP drawback isn't too much for the gates, but at some point playing even more CITP...it will.
I'm not lowering my curve. I want to play Bringer of the Black Dawn because it's cool and Avenger of Zendikar is another way to win. Ad Nauseam is cool, but I want to Diabolic Revelation instead.
I'm not missing Horn of Greed.
Intuition is awesome, I want to play it. But since I don't do the Dark Depths, I don't feel the need to play it. And I want to focus on the tutors that get Scapeshift. Scapeshift and 11 lands in play is my target most games.
Getting Emeria online is tough. You won't just do it naturally. You either need Prismatic Omen or dedicating all your search for plains. Loyal Retainers would just be a neat little trick. Not worth it.
I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.
I am exited for the Theros release. Legendary lands are interesting. And it's always easy to be greedy with 5 colors. All the playables...even though being a lands.dec heavily influences what you can run.
Dark Depths and Valakut combo arent 11 cards though, just 2 and 2+2 optional extras that are useful outside of it. :/ I just, in my meta, dont have time/cant assemble 10 gates plus maze's end. Our Omnath player saves Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mines for key lands. If he hits a gate and I cant immediately get it back before targeted graveyard exile (or the entire thing), those lands become really meh. That's what I meant by clunky. And oh boy, he does save that for me. I'd like to see how yours works on tapped out in testplaying to see if the Gate strat works for your build.
And you're right, the anti LD cards are really bad and sometimes Terra Eternal is counterintuitive, but there's always some surprise player that plays Land D too, and then they become useful. I really wanna take them out but you know, the second I do, rut roh.
edit: forgot to say, DD combo is best activated EOT before your turn, or in response to land destruction.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Well I tried my best to explain how conceptually in 50+ land build, Maze's End doesn't cost any card slots (you just play the gates instead of other mana-fixers). You can still refer to it as 11 slots, but I wouldn't run it if in reality it was 11 slots. Dark Depths is also similarly compact, taking just 1 slot. The only accomadation one has to make for that is to play Realms Uncharted (DD/Petrified Field/Thespian's Stage/Vesuva) and/or Intuition in the tutor package.
Dark Depths (on it's own) is more meh than a guildgate. It doesn't even produce mana.
That same Omnath player doesn't use Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mine to stop you from Dark Depths? You know those cards also stop you from getting a 20/20. You should never have to response to Strip Mine with tripping DD. At least if you play against players who fully understand the rules. The appropriate reaction from your opponents is to LD in response to you trying to trip DD. If you kill DD with the sac trigger on the stack, you don't get the 20/20.
If you have enough time to assemble Valakut via Scapeshift + Prismatic Omen, then surely you have enough time to assemble 10 gate via Scapeshift. LD disrupts 10 gate, but it also disrupts Valakut.
If I replace Petrified Field with Valakut and make a single cut for Prismatic Omen, that's all it would take to put a Valakut package in my deck
Are some of your cardselections based on budget?
Not really budget, but I like to minimize proxies to not offend those too much that arent huge on a large amount of them. And its a matter of finding the cards to trade for! haven't been able to find exploration for the life of me, sp I'm just about to order it.
Wild research I'm iffy on. The random discard is what is stopping me. I'm afraid ill dump omen and be without recursion. Its worth a test slot though!
And I'm about ready to redo some of the mana base. Colors and amounts of them have changed alot.
Ill take another look atyour list tonight fpr ideas and test it out too!
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
Well I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I play Wild Research and Gamble. High risk, higher reward
Enchantments aren't the easiest to re-cur, but that's why Sun Titan is so beastly in our deck. He even turns Entomb into a small pseudo-Tinker. I try to abuse every interaction I can. With Wild Research, all you have to do is hit one time. Every single Enchantment in the lands.dec is gas. Hit Sylvan Library one time early in the game and you'll have a full hand for the rest of the game or hit Exploration/Burgeoning when you need. I also use it to hit removal when I'm desperate. Wild Research definitely isn't a staple or anything. It's a card that I like a lot and wanted to play it.
I basically play it over Intuition. Intuition gets 3 cards that Sun Titan can get back!
I just don't think Diamond Valley is good enough, budget or no budget.
The best sac outlets lands are (no activation cost and produce mana):
Phyrexian Tower
High Market
Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).
3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.
Miren is....ok. I took it out of my build. The problem, basically, is that child is a nuke waiting to go off. Which means that you're holding the table for ransom - people won't want to play more permanents until it's off the table. All of which is great, except that if you should tap out of your sac outlet, then people will be VERY happy to take the opportunity to tuck child. And especially when you have a mana-intensive sac outlet like miren, backwoods, and a few other even worse ones I could name but forgot, people will save their tuck spells UNTIL you're tapped out. I've definitely had child tucked while having miren on the field but without the mana to use it - WITH couterspell backup. People tucked it twice.
So, if you want to use child for early control, dropping it on turn 5-6 with miren means people will probably tuck it ASAP before you untap with miren. As long as your sac outlet is no-mana-required, though, like market, tower, and valley, you can keep it available much, much easier, and avoid playing into tuck.
It depends on how much you want to abuse child, basically. If you're rarely using it, then maybe being able to use the land for mana is worth it. For my build, I always always always wanted a sac outlet ready to go, though, and 6 life is pretty amazing, making diamond valley an outstanding card. I'd rank it almost as good as tower, better than market, leagues better than anything that requires mana. But its strength does vary by build.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I'd contend that while Diamond Valley costs nothing to activate (therefore giving you a convenient turn 6 timing on Child), the opportunity cost of having yet another land which makes zero mana is very high.
Having a cheap sac activation for Child of Alara is great when you need to sweep the board on the spot. But it's not free. It'll cost you a land drop that makes no mana.
If you absolutely need to wipe the board, that means there's other things that might need tucking more than your Child. And that's IF they have a tuck spell.
I think you're overly concerned with tuck effects when you're discounting Miren.
1.) Your opponent could just as easily tuck your sac outlet land.
2.) Your opponent could just as easily disrupt how you bring Child back.
3.) And if your build is much more controlling and centered around Child of Alara, having Miren in addition to Tower/Market/Valley is amazing.