Quote from Throst54Sunder, Praetor's Council, Trade Routes and Storm Cauldron all make assault a ton better
Not worth the cut.
Quote from umtigerI have a similar decklist and would like to post it to bounce off ideas, but I don't know how to format it mtgsal code to make it look nice.
So before I post a decklist, could you point me in the right direction?
In the same way, I feel that Maze's End is just the best way to win with a lands deck in EDH. Unlike the other win-cons which deal lethal to other players, it just wins the game instead. And all you have to do is advance your regular game-plan as you would with any deck, hit land drops. Maze's End can both grind wins and win from an empty board.
With my list, I don't think I can really cut ~3-5 cards and replace them with cards that would function better. I'm glad that you took out Seismic Assault. It's not that great and the Sunder/Creeping Renaissance shenanigans aren't either. Even if they are, Valakut and Borborygmos Enraged do the same thing but better.
For example, if I can activate Weathered Wayfarer I already feel like I'm losing the game big time.
I think the biggest department you can upgrade in are your creatures. With all the colors available to you, you should be able to power up.
In many ways, Child of Alara is the best lands.dec general one can have. You get to use all 5 colors to field the most efficient tools for the job and EDH is very permanent-centric. While, we need lots of permanents in play as well. They are mostly lands. Child of Alara is also a 6/6 for 5cc with trample in a pinch.
Quote from Throst54Its not a different deck just because it uses a different wincon.
Either way everydeck should have multiple wincons.
If you argue that you can argue that you arent a lands deck. You only run 47 lands.
Thats not even 50% lands.
The legacy deck ran 62% lands.
Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
Quote from DirkGentlychild of alara without high market, diamond valley, or corpse dance? I don't get it.
also, with your mana base, global ruin is killer.
Quote from gromgromI'm trying to ease on the proxies, otherwise Diamond Valley. I currently have Phyrexian Tower. I like it over the 1 life sometimes. meh.
global ruin I forgot this card existed... oh boy. Adding it.
corpse dance ooooo. I'm trying to not rely on my general too much (Some games I have trouble casting the atomic baby, or dont need to), but I'll pick one up soon to abuse with the baby.
Maybeboard in order of want
global ruin corpse dance Spitting Image Urban Evolution Consecrated Sphinx Bringer of the Black Dawn
Quote from DirkGentlyI don't disagree that phyrexian tower is better than market, but redundancy is always good. Especially if you're going corpse dancing, whether with child or something else. My favorite thing I've done with tower was sac in response to a take possession. RTFC ftw.
corpse dance is just crazy town. There's lots of cards it's amazing with. I love it with child, xiahou dun, STEve, kagemaro, glen elendra archmage, gilded drake...lots and lots of amazing options.
Quote from gromgromDisagree, on a number of points, some personal from my playgroups, some in deck design.
1. Problem is, your build focuses on that wincon, as opposed to the ones I focus on. It's a different deck. There are many land.dec's, but I make sure in my opening post to note the differences between this build, and others.
2. Maze's End wouldnt work in my meta. End of story. The single target permanent destruction/exile, on top of board wipes, wouldnt allow for a clunky all-in wincon like that. In addition of needing all of those gates. Not just two lands like Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage, but 10 specific lands.
3. Kind of. Valakut and Seismic Assault are both clunky and require many pieces to do any real damage in a 40 life multiplayer format. But copying Valakut is where it becomes better. The previous poster has a deck based around them that supposedly works. It's focused on those wincons. This focuses on Valakut, Dark Depths, and Worm Harvest/Last Stand.
4. On nongreen creatures - Biggest annoyance is not being able to grab them with GSZ. I agree, I'm still tinkering with them. Sun Titan just came back in. Bringer of the Black Dawn could be pretty interesting. I'll put him on my maybeboard.
5. Avenger of Zendikar is worse in this build than Rampaging Baloths, and here's why: If Avenger is removed (which he will be given how big of a target he is) and quickly usually, I just have 0/1 or 1/2 plants. Baloths is less of a big target, doesn't benefit opponent's on a Bribery as much, but pumps out 4/4 beasts, and tramples on his own. I've tested both, and yes, AoV is better in a 67-75+ land build, but in my 47-48 land build, no :/
All in all, you've given me a few ideas. I'll test em out soon. This deck is really coming together!
Quote from Throst54
A lot of your card draw should just be the urza cycle lands, more ways to find Life From the Loam, Ad nauseum and Treasure Hunt.
Id lower your curve, you dont need the 6cc+ creatures.
Horn of Greed is one card youre missing, you will almost always benefit from it more than anyone else.
If you want another tutor, Intuition makes ridiculously unfair piles in this deck.
Building a way to continuously sac/recur child every turn outside of volrath's stronghold is a good ability to have. Genesis and Emeria, the Sky Ruin are my favorite. We run enough duals and fetches that getting emeria online isnt that hard.
Loyal Retainers works great with intuition piles, and getting back child/azusa/borb 2.0
Quote from umtiger1. Well, I don't consider it a problem per se. I do run different cards because my deck is focused on a different thing. Same deck, just a different build. It's not too far fetched to see that my deck can morph into yours and vice versa. It's like how in Modern Jund and Junk are really the same deck with different cards. Or how U/R Splinter Twin is more combo focused than the URW versions.
Since our decks are completely based on permanents, it can be like assembling a puzzle. Prismatic Omen is a piece for you, that let's you Last Stand and Valakut. And I don't even bother with Terra Eternal and Sacred Ground. Armageddon and Ruination are too good to even bother trying to play around and Terra Eternal gets in the way of the Dust Bowl/Strip Mine/Wasteland package that I can abuse more than my opponents.
2. I'm surprised that Maze's End wouldn't work in your meta or any meta for that matter. Especially the END OF STORY part. My explanation really boils down to 2 parts.
A.) All of the same things which stop Maze's End also stop the Dark Depths kill that you're running. For instance, there are even more exile/sac effects to stop Marit Lage (a creature) than there are that stop lands. Even Maze's Ith can stop Marit Lage. Wasteland stops Dark Depths just the same as it does Maze's End. It's unexpected that you run Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal and are concerned with disruption to the 10 gate plan. While I don't, and I still go for it.
B.) Maze's End is not clunky. For one, the opportunity cost for running the Maze's End win-con is negligible. So all I have to do is run 10 more citp duals in my lands.dec? No problem The CITP drawback is mitigated because the land count is so high. I can choose and time my land drops to the turns when I need to cast spells. They also almost take up NO ADDITIONAL SLOTS in my build. If I wasn't running 10+1 gates, 5 of those spots would be Zen fetches anyways and Maze's End would just be Thawing Glaciers instead. So the Maze's End win-con is actually only taking up 5 spots. And those five spots would just be better mana-fixing lands (-> the cycle of 5 Worldwake Man-Dual Lands)....so in reality I'm just trading in 5 really weak win-cons for one that wins the game immediately. FWIW, I'd argue that the gates are just as strong as the ruin cards that you run (since you run Wayfarer and I run Maze's End). So I'm basically using 0 slots.
Maze's End is also not clunky in that if someone exiles a gate it doesn't matter. Valakut/Last Stand wouldn't work without Prismatic Omen. Gates are gates, they make mana and aren't dead cards. Exile of lands mostly only happens in graveyards. Most games, the gates aren't in the yard. If LD is the puts it there, you have Sacred Ground and Terra Eternal to try and fight it. But if the exile does happen, C'est La Vie. Win another way, just like if someone exiled your Valakut...it's the same thing.
3. Dark Depths is near the top of the list on win-cons as well. Worm Harvest is another case to run more lands. Worm Harvest also can get exiled too. Why not max out on fetches if that's a win-con you want to focus on? 7 basic forests is a lot.
4. Not being able to GSZ isn't a minus. It's the other way around. Being able to GSZ is just a plus. Running 5 colors means a lot of the best cards aren't going to be green. Black Bringer is insane and happens to work with Terminus too well!
5. Avenger of Zendikar is better than Rampaging Baloths in every build (even Beast tribal). It's just a better card. You described the bad way to play Avenger so that doesn't even count. No one should ever just plop it down and passes without a land drop. Avenger/land/pass+fetchland next turn and you're already better than Baloths...and you don't need 50+ lands to do that. Even non-lands.dec run Avenger over Baloths. If you want both that's different. But if you run one, it's Avenger. Why would they target a lands.dec with Bribery? Does Bribery mean that you won't play good cards like Consecrated Sphinx, because I'd rather bride that instead.
Quote from gromgromDark Depths and Valakut combo arent 11 cards though, just 2 and 2+2 optional extras that are useful outside of it. :/ I just, in my meta, dont have time/cant assemble 10 gates plus maze's end. Our Omnath player saves Ghost Quarter/Wasteland/Strip Mines for key lands. If he hits a gate and I cant immediately get it back before targeted graveyard exile (or the entire thing), those lands become really meh. That's what I meant by clunky. And oh boy, he does save that for me. I'd like to see how yours works on tapped out in testplaying to see if the Gate strat works for your build.
edit: forgot to say, DD combo is best activated EOT before your turn, or in response to land destruction.
Quote from umtiger
I agree that playing more High Market/Phyr Tower effects are good. Diamond Valley is overkill though especially since it doesn't make mana. Miren and Grim Backwoods make mana and don't cost ~$100.
Quote from gromgromthey're learning that you have to target the land in between land plays to stop the combo or in response to me cracking,now. Haha
Not really budget, but I like to minimize proxies to not offend those too much that arent huge on a large amount of them. And its a matter of finding the cards to trade for! haven't been able to find exploration for the life of me, sp I'm just about to order it.
If I had to trade 100% for any deck, I'd never have the deck that I want.
At first, I wondered why your manabase wasn't 10 fetch 20 duals.
Wild research I'm iffy on. The random discard is what is stopping me. I'm afraid ill dump omen and be without recursion. Its worth a test slot though!
And I'm about ready to redo some of the mana base. Colors and amounts of them have changed alot.
Ill take another look atyour list tonight fpr ideas and test it out too!
Quote from DirkGentlyWell I wouldn't have suggested it except that he's already running
tabernacle, which is considerably more expensive. I've got a valley but I sure don't have a tabernacle.
Quote from umtigerI just don't think Diamond Valley is good enough, budget or no budget.
The best sac outlets lands are (no activation cost and produce mana):
Then if you need another one, you can play Miren, the Moaning Well. Valley might go in before Grim Backwoods (since it's activation cost is 4cc and requires colors).
3 sac outlets is probably enough. Lands.dec has a high concentration of tutors for a non-combo deck.