Hey, no sweat. It took years for me to get to my current build. It's a path rife with frustrations and fun both. (Gref, who's contributing to the primer, said that slivers are for those with a sadomasochistic streak. He's definitely right. )
The Door has pros and cons when compared with the Coat. It will be most beneficial after a boardwipe -your first sliver played afterwards will get +X/+X- and will not profit from the Queen churning out tokens -tokens being not spells-. That being said... in your current decklist I suppose the Door is better, true. Though there would be no harm in packing both, considering you run no tutors at all. (Thus far.)
I was looking at your deck's mana pie in Tapped Out. Having artifact mana sources can never hurt. I would say the ones you've picked are fine, but if you wanted to add more, then toss in your choice among Izzet, Selesnya and Boros. I've never ran signets, prefering to grab stuff allowing me to add mana of any color. Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot aren't expensive cards, but boy if they aren't immensely helpful.
Since you're on budget, it goes without saying that the moment RTR is out you should grab as many shocklands and gates as you can. Especially gates, since you don't mind them coming into play tapped. Also consider grabbing the SoM duals that will rotate out next week; I guess they should cheapen a lot now.
Without anesthesia, this is what I would cut:
- Frenetic Sliver -- luck is a fickle mistress.
- Opaline Sliver -- as a deterrent, it's fine, but it won't stop a player from exiling/killing/bouncing/tucking your sliver.
- Sidewinder Sliver -- flanking is meh in EDH, even if your sliver was blocked by a puny 1/1 that would then become 0/0, it's still blocked.
- Two-Headed Sliver -- you already have enough evasion-giving slivers.
- Abundant Growth -- a nice shenanigan, but won't contribute to your mana pool in the end. Go with another ramp spell instead; I suggest Skyshroud Claim.
- Harsh Mercy -- utterly sucks in multiplayer. Hell, even in single player; your opponent will always pick the creature type most valuable to him and so you'll only get rid of cannon fodder.
- Shadow Sliver -- too deadly a double-edged knife IMO.
- I never run equipment, though I can't bring myself to tell you to cut it. I always go for Crystalline Sliver as soon as I can, which renders all your gear inoperable.
- Vitalize -- if you're looking for a winning condition, go for anything that gives you an extra attack phase. Think World at War.
- Ponder -- on its own it's useless; you need to run more stuff to rearrange your deck, or nothing at all.
- Life // Death -- you need to trim cards from your deck.
- I'd suggest you ran more lands, too: 33 is too few a number, even with artifact mana sources and all.
Hey, with such low costs, don't you think Aluren and Recycle would be dead awesome here? You'd probably have to run Reliquary Tower, too, and keep it in hand until Recycle hits the field.
Now, the final question... I started out the long path to this current build with a list like yours. Having tons of slivers is fun, but inefficient. After tiring of getting curbstomped by the powerhouses in my pod -think Sisay, Sharuum, Mayael and Augustine, to name but a few-, I learned from the other guys here that you need a plan and cut everything that doesn't directly contribute towards that plan. The final product is the decklist on the thread starter. It works, sometimes scarily well, and has achieved a semblance of consistency; it can hold off and win against a table with all of these generals present. But I find myself playing Gaka's Norin deck -sans 3-4 cards that are nigh impossible to find here in Argentina- more often because it's more fun.
Do I mean you should go cutthroat and turn your deck into a prison/stax machine? Definitely not. But slivers *SCARE* other players. That Deadly Threat Threshold I like to name when I discuss slivers on post #2 is no joke. Having more than 3 slivers in play means you pull more aggro than a MMO tank. Hence why I said my next challenge to be building a fun and competitive aggro list, that can play loads and loads of slivers, have a lot of fun at doing so, and remaining stable and solid enough to put up a fight against anything else.
Hey, no sweat. It took years for me to get to my current build. It's a path rife with frustrations and fun both. (Gref, who's contributing to the primer, said that slivers are for those with a sadomasochistic streak. He's definitely right. )
The Door has pros and cons when compared with the Coat. It will be most beneficial after a boardwipe -your first sliver played afterwards will get +X/+X- and will not profit from the Queen churning out tokens -tokens being not spells-. That being said... in your current decklist I suppose the Door is better, true. Though there would be no harm in packing both, considering you run no tutors at all. (Thus far.)
I was looking at your deck's mana pie in Tapped Out. Having artifact mana sources can never hurt. I would say the ones you've picked are fine, but if you wanted to add more, then toss in your choice among Izzet, Selesnya and Boros. I've never ran signets, prefering to grab stuff allowing me to add mana of any color. Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot aren't expensive cards, but boy if they aren't immensely helpful.
Since you're on budget, it goes without saying that the moment RTR is out you should grab as many shocklands and gates as you can. Especially gates, since you don't mind them coming into play tapped. Also consider grabbing the SoM duals that will rotate out next week; I guess they should cheapen a lot now.
Without anesthesia, this is what I would cut:
- Frenetic Sliver -- luck is a fickle mistress.
- Opaline Sliver -- as a deterrent, it's fine, but it won't stop a player from exiling/killing/bouncing/tucking your sliver.
- Sidewinder Sliver -- flanking is meh in EDH, even if your sliver was blocked by a puny 1/1 that would then become 0/0, it's still blocked.
- Two-Headed Sliver -- you already have enough evasion-giving slivers.
- Abundant Growth -- a nice shenanigan, but won't contribute to your mana pool in the end. Go with another ramp spell instead; I suggest Skyshroud Claim.
- Harsh Mercy -- utterly sucks in multiplayer. Hell, even in single player; your opponent will always pick the creature type most valuable to him and so you'll only get rid of cannon fodder.
- Shadow Sliver -- too deadly a double-edged knife IMO.
- I never run equipment, though I can't bring myself to tell you to cut it. I always go for Crystalline Sliver as soon as I can, which renders all your gear inoperable.
- Vitalize -- if you're looking for a winning condition, go for anything that gives you an extra attack phase. Think World at War.
- Ponder -- on its own it's useless; you need to run more stuff to rearrange your deck, or nothing at all.
- Life // Death -- you need to trim cards from your deck.
- I'd suggest you ran more lands, too: 33 is too few a number, even with artifact mana sources and all.
Hey, with such low costs, don't you think Aluren and Recycle would be dead awesome here? You'd probably have to run Reliquary Tower, too, and keep it in hand until Recycle hits the field.
Now, the final question... I started out the long path to this current build with a list like yours. Having tons of slivers is fun, but inefficient. After tiring of getting curbstomped by the powerhouses in my pod -think Sisay, Sharuum, Mayael and Augustine, to name but a few-, I learned from the other guys here that you need a plan and cut everything that doesn't directly contribute towards that plan. The final product is the decklist on the thread starter. It works, sometimes scarily well, and has achieved a semblance of consistency; it can hold off and win against a table with all of these generals present. But I find myself playing Gaka's Norin deck -sans 3-4 cards that are nigh impossible to find here in Argentina- more often because it's more fun.
Do I mean you should go cutthroat and turn your deck into a prison/stax machine? Definitely not. But slivers *SCARE* other players. That Deadly Threat Threshold I like to name when I discuss slivers on post #2 is no joke. Having more than 3 slivers in play means you pull more aggro than a MMO tank. Hence why I said my next challenge to be building a fun and competitive aggro list, that can play loads and loads of slivers, have a lot of fun at doing so, and remaining stable and solid enough to put up a fight against anything else.
Just in answer to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I want to do: Throw out a lot of slivers and have fun. Maybe even scare some people.
99% of the magic games I play Are casual with 3 or 4 friends at my kitchen table at 3:00 in the morning. (Un)Fortunately, we all go a little crazy sometimes and do things like waking up one morning and deciding I want to build a sliver deck without owning a single sliver to my name. (Actually, I own like 5, but anyways...)
As far as mana goes, Im still debating the tri lands, but I have a few dual mana laying around (The core ones they just reprinted) I can toss in. Also I'll toss in a Coalition Relic. I think I can manage with a non perfect manabase for now.
I actually had Aluren in there before, but decided to forgo it for giving my opponent an advatage as well. But I really dont think they run many small drops to be honest.
Cut a few cards you mentioned to cut. Including lightning greaves.
Also cut Winged sliver - Pulmonic + Shifting should be enough. Also Spinneret for protection.
Vitalize I think can be fun for mana ramp (with gemhide on the field of course) or as a "My opponant has a 20/20 out on the board and I attacked someone with all my cards to kill them this turn". I'll play test it a bit.
Im kind of afraid of board wipes at this point.
Should I cut Unnatural selection? With crystaline sliver out it is kind of useless, no?
Unnatural Selection and Vitalize are, in my opinion, useful and useless respectively because of the same reason: you have only one sliver inhibiting the first card and making the second card useful as you describe it. That's why I'd keep the first one and ditch the second, as of your current build.
Board wipes will totally trash you indeed. There are very few workarounds for this, other than packing more graveyard recursion (Twilight's Call) or stuff like Cauldron of Souls and Ghostway. Most likely the Cauldron.
5 more to cut, AND I want to make room for Lurking Predators.
Just put it into the TCG Player Optimizer, removed what I had or could get easily enough, and it came out to 116.43 with the Queen and Legion which i think im getting through other means. With them removed it comes to 81.50 which is $10 under budget. I think I'm going to do this.
Cut Hunter Sliver. Provoke is cool, but it usually leads to getting double blocked and few slivers are inherently beefy enough to survive that sort of thing.
Cut Hunter Sliver. Provoke is cool, but it usually leads to getting double blocked and few slivers are inherently beefy enough to survive that sort of thing.
Cut Cryptic Gateway. It is slow and expensive. You can't cheat in Overlord with it.
Cut Quick Sliver. Even with it we are slow. You have to play a reactive style for this to be useful. Possibly better in 1v1.
Cut Ward Sliver. Between Crystalline and Opaline your dudes should be safe enough.
all i got for now.
This is all good advice!
I will disagree on two things.
First, I play Heartstone for redundancy. Sometimes I just don't get my tutor or draw into Training Grounds. Of course it's worse than TG, but it's still better than nothing.
Second, I play Cryptic Gateway as it's a fun card and gets explosive very fast. I never mind drawing it.
Gref and CruxMDQ are the most studied sliver players I know. Their recommendations will take you far.
That said, please get a lot of shock lands when RTR comes out. Wait until the blue shocks drop a little (they'll be high for the first bit they are in standard), but stock up. I am hoping you have access to Zendikar shocklands as they really help too. Mana base is so important in these decks. My builds usually want green, black, and blue out as fast as they can. But obviously all 5 colors by turn 5 is the goal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Cut Faces of the Past. Cheap trick triggered by death of a sliver. Seedborn Muse if you must untap. Cut. I can live without it. May not be all that useful.
Cut Toxin Sliver. Pseudo deathtouch is only ok. Isn't this deathtouch with no regeneration? Its kind of expensive but seems pretty good to me.
Cut Hunter Sliver. Provoke is cool, but it usually leads to getting double blocked and few slivers are inherently beefy enough to survive that sort of thing. Cut.
Cut Firewake Sliver. We don't like sacrifice unless it wins games outright. You could probably think of a few other slivers this applys to. Keep because of haste and like you said, the sac cam mean winning games. As for other "sac slivers" Im thinking about board wipes where I can get some use out of them before they are gone.
Cut Skullclamp. Your slivers will probably be too fat to clamp by the time you have enough to clamp in the first place. Clamp is there for when they die by battle, sac, or anything really. Its not just useful as an engine.
Cut Horned Sliver. This belongs in Legion decks. You want straight up evasion. I cant bring myself to cut this. I think trample may be pretty good if I dont have my bombs
Cut Mnemonic Sliver. Looks good on paper. In Overlord decks it usually means draw one card for five mana. Cut
Cut Cryptic Gateway. It is slow and expensive. You can't cheat in Overlord with it. As Danzborin said, he likes it, and for now where my mana base will be suffering, I think its an okay ploy.
Cut Quick Sliver. Even with it we are slow. You have to play a reactive style for this to be useful. Possibly better in 1v1. I plan playing this 1v1 as well, so I dont mind it there. I could cut it for something better though.
Cut Ward Sliver. Between Crystalline and Opaline your dudes should be safe enough. Ward sliver is in the same spot as shadow and winged. I could cut it for shadow sliver if you think that is a better cut in.
all i got for now.
Using your suggestions I cut it down to 97 cards. I also added in Lurking Predators.
<Rubs eyes sleepily>... Uhhh... good morn--WHA?! Wow, you guys have been busy
Fill up the remaining spots with lands, says I. Years of hard-earned experience say 36-37 lands to be the magic number
Off-topic: good to see you around again, Danz & Gref. The primer is being mulled over by the committee. Anything you want to add?
I want to add that I'm sorry I haven't had time to contribute more.
I had best intentions of going through it all.
I won't even be home for half of October.
Sadly I haven't played EDH with my playgroup in over a year and only get 1v1 about once a month if that.
Did you send out a final copy of the primer? If so, I'd like to read it over. If I see anything out of sorts, I'll let you know. We can mull it over.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
<Rubs eyes sleepily>... Uhhh... good morn--WHA?! Wow, you guys have been busy
Fill up the remaining spots with lands, says I. Years of hard-earned experience say 36-37 lands to be the magic number
Off-topic: good to see you around again, Danz & Gref. The primer is being mulled over by the committee. Anything you want to add?
Tossed Clot sliver back in for crypt sliver.
And which lands? I just remebered I have: Rootbound Crag, DragonSkull Summit, and Seachrome Coast chilling in my binder. I also have a Vivid Creek, Vivid Crag, and Vivid Grove. Would these be better than the trilands I have in there now? How about City of Brass or Grand Coliseum?
If you going to stick any dual lands, you should take a look at the mana pie in your deck page at Tapped Out and choose accordingly.
The City and the Coliseum make you pay quite a hefty price for their benefit, the City in particular. I'd stick with the Coliseum and grab a Reflecting Pool while I'm at it. Exotic Orchard can be interesting, too, but hinges heavily on whatever you're facing at the moment--think about the other decks in your pod for a second and consider whether they'll make that card useless or not.
The Arena is very useful, but on it's own it won't be particularly effective, especially since you can't tutor it--and you can't protect it either. I would suggest you go for group hug-ish things (and more than just one) if you want to draw more and you're not going to pack countermagic or stuff that makes your permanents harder to target. I'm at a loss of suggestions... I can only offer some advice on what did not work for me when trying out aggro:
- Rhystic Study in your case won't be good since you can't protect it. (On the contrary, since it annoys the hell out of everyone else, it may provoke the table into squashing you. Or worse, a blue player may steal it.)
- Experimenting with things like Howling Mine was disastrous: everyone would draw one extra card before I did, and it would be blown up before I got to profit from it. Ditto Font of Mythos.
If you going to stick any dual lands, you should take a look at the mana pie in your deck page at Tapped Out and choose accordingly.
The City and the Coliseum make you pay quite a hefty price for their benefit, the City in particular. I'd stick with the Coliseum and grab a Reflecting Pool while I'm at it. Exotic Orchard can be interesting, too, but hinges heavily on whatever you're facing at the moment--think about the other decks in your pod for a second and consider whether they'll make that card useless or not.
The Arena is very useful, but on it's own it won't be particularly effective, especially since you can't tutor it--and you can't protect it either. I would suggest you go for group hug-ish things (and more than just one) if you want to draw more and you're not going to pack countermagic or stuff that makes your permanents harder to target. I'm at a loss of suggestions... I can only offer some advice on what did not work for me when trying out aggro:
- Rhystic Study in your case won't be good since you can't protect it. (On the contrary, since it annoys the hell out of everyone else, it may provoke the table into squashing you. Or worse, a blue player may steal it.)
- Experimenting with things like Howling Mine was disastrous: everyone would draw one extra card before I did, and it would be blown up before I got to profit from it. Ditto Font of Mythos.
I'll put Arena on the backburner for now. Reflecting pool is kind of expensive but I'll keep it in mind. i think I'll toss in my Rootbound Crag and Seachrome Coast, just by looking at the mana pie.
With those additions, I think its done? All thats left to do is mass order it off of TCGPlayer and playtest the crap out of it.
Last chance to let me know if I'm making any huge mistakes on the list lol.
I have yet to think seriously about an aggro variant that could work; yours is the first prototype I get my brains to work on. At first glance, I'm inclined to try out stuff that sets up a reanimation scenario and some of the cards we've talked about, things I haven't suggested because you're on budget...
- I mean, Survival of the Fittest is one of the most awesome cards ever printed for creature decks, and is priced accordingly. (Which means it costs an arm and a leg.)
- In a similar vein, a more recent thing to try out would be Birthing Pod.
- Also Elvish Piper and Fauna Shaman.
- If you ever got to play the Legion with 4+ slivers in play then Greater Good becomes beyond awesome, but it's exaggeratedly convoluted. If you rack your brains and come up with a creative way to deploy it, I'm all ears.
It all boils down on how much are you willing to spend. I don't even want to dedicate a single instant to measuring the cost of my own deck, but it was worth it.
As a starting point, I'd say your list is okay, but since you're a sliver fan I can tell you're not going to stop there. How about this: let's get to work on a cool aggro list together, budget restrictions be damned, and we can feature it on the thread starter when it's done. This way you'll know what to aim for.
I have yet to think seriously about an aggro variant that could work; yours is the first prototype I get my brains to work on. At first glance, I'm inclined to try out stuff that sets up a reanimation scenario and some of the cards we've talked about, things I haven't suggested because you're on budget...
- I mean, Survival of the Fittest is one of the most awesome cards ever printed for creature decks, and is priced accordingly. (Which means it costs an arm and a leg.)
- In a similar vein, a more recent thing to try out would be Birthing Pod.
- Also Elvish Piper and Fauna Shaman.
- If you ever got to play the Legion with 4+ slivers in play then Greater Good becomes beyond awesome, but it's exaggeratedly convoluted. If you rack your brains and come up with a creative way to deploy it, I'm all ears.
It all boils down on how much are you willing to spend. I don't even want to dedicate a single instant to measuring the cost of my own deck, but it was worth it.
As a starting point, I'd say your list is okay, but since you're a sliver fan I can tell you're not going to stop there. How about this: let's get to work on a cool aggro list together, budget restrictions be damned, and we can feature it on the thread starter when it's done. This way you'll know what to aim for.
Root Sliver - I should be - Root sliver is there now. What should I dump for it? I missed it somehow =(
I considered Birthing Pod, but cut it because the ladder would be too low too get a lot out of it. I want to keep slivers on the field as well. I have birthing Pod in my Riku EDH and it works wonders. Fauna Shamen and Piper could be add ins if I find a particular sliver not working well.
This is exactly what I'm going for starting off - An aggro deck thats fun to play, and something I can build off of. - My current playgroup ranges from Kaalia, Riku (My only other EDH deck lol), Mimeoplasm, Gisela, Niv, Skullbriarer, things like that.
And your absoultely right about me being a Sliver Fan, when I first saw them I fell in love with how they worked and decided I would have a Slvier deck one day. Now is that day.
Unfortunately, cash is a big factor right now. (The only reason I'm able to do this is because I sold my Kindle Fire, and am probably going to trade some pots and pans for the Queen / Legion.) Maybe down the line I can trade for some better cards, especially the Shock lands, but for now the pricing is right where I want it.
As for helping you put together an Aggro list, I'd have to say most of my input would be nonsensical. Let me get a few games under my belt and then maybe I can speak of the glory of aggro slivers. Until then I'm a newbie. You and everyone else in this thread that has helped me are like giants. Even if I build it and it fails, I can always say I had fun building it.
I really prefer Sliver Legion at the helm of an aggro variant. Coupled with a solid draw engine, the deck can be fierce. Having 1 sided Coat of Arms is solid value.
I can see it working with Overlord though. Heartstone effects really shine here as you have much more possible options to tutor as opposed to a combo or voltron variant where you will probably tutor with Overlord a few times.
I'm considering them, though I'm not particularly keen on using them because I've almost completely ditched tutors and any means to defend them once they come into play, Training Grounds in particular. That said, probably my reluctance stems from lousy plays in the first place--as in, overextending myself, or fielding them when there are no other juicier targets around... is it just me, or multiplayer EDH is getting more and more similar to a RISK game?
Well, I got all the cards in the mail, put it together (Sleeving it in brown Dragonshields, because who thinks brown is threatening) and played a game with my girlfriend. (After opening a Box and a fat pack of RTR)
Guess who slept on the couch last night?
The All stars of the game had to be Sliver Legion, Ward Sliver, and Virulent Sliver.
Game 1 I managed to get a large enough aggro presence early on and she couldn't keep up. Sliver Legion for the Overkill. (She also said her draws sucked)
Turn 2 had me down to 18 life and 1 or two slivers for 1/2 the game, but then I was able to Slivercycling (via homing sliver) for a Harmonic sliver to take care of her Oblivion Stone, then grab a Gemhide (via Cycling), cast overlord to get Legion and draw into the Virulent Sliver. A ward Sliver also got cast and gaurenteed me the game. This is a very mana intensive deck, I have noticed.
Fun Fun, can't wait to test it out against more people.
Well, I got all the cards in the mail, put it together (Sleeving it in brown Dragonshields, because who thinks brown is threatening) and played a game with my girlfriend. (After opening a Box and a fat pack of RTR)
Guess who slept on the couch last night?
The All stars of the game had to be Sliver Legion, Ward Sliver, and Virulent Sliver.
Game 1 I managed to get a large enough aggro presence early on and she couldn't keep up. Sliver Legion for the Overkill. (She also said her draws sucked)
Turn 2 had me down to 18 life and 1 or two slivers for 1/2 the game, but then I was able to Slivercycling (via homing sliver) for a Harmonic sliver to take care of her Oblivion Stone, then grab a Gemhide (via Cycling), cast overlord to get Legion and draw into the Virulent Sliver. A ward Sliver also got cast and gaurenteed me the game. This is a very mana intensive deck, I have noticed.
Fun Fun, can't wait to test it out against more people.
For real! Try to keep your curve down. 5cmc or less should be do-able and remain competitive. if you can, keep everything but your 5c slivers at 4cmc or less.
Please note that Virulent Sliver does not give your slivers infect.
Each sliver that attacks and isn't blocked will only deal 1 poison counter, even if it's a 10/10.
If blocked they will not deal damage in -1/-1 counters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Many others...
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The Door has pros and cons when compared with the Coat. It will be most beneficial after a boardwipe -your first sliver played afterwards will get +X/+X- and will not profit from the Queen churning out tokens -tokens being not spells-. That being said... in your current decklist I suppose the Door is better, true. Though there would be no harm in packing both, considering you run no tutors at all. (Thus far.)
I was looking at your deck's mana pie in Tapped Out. Having artifact mana sources can never hurt. I would say the ones you've picked are fine, but if you wanted to add more, then toss in your choice among Izzet, Selesnya and Boros. I've never ran signets, prefering to grab stuff allowing me to add mana of any color. Coalition Relic and Darksteel Ingot aren't expensive cards, but boy if they aren't immensely helpful.
Since you're on budget, it goes without saying that the moment RTR is out you should grab as many shocklands and gates as you can. Especially gates, since you don't mind them coming into play tapped. Also consider grabbing the SoM duals that will rotate out next week; I guess they should cheapen a lot now.
Without anesthesia, this is what I would cut:
- Frenetic Sliver -- luck is a fickle mistress.
- Opaline Sliver -- as a deterrent, it's fine, but it won't stop a player from exiling/killing/bouncing/tucking your sliver.
- Sidewinder Sliver -- flanking is meh in EDH, even if your sliver was blocked by a puny 1/1 that would then become 0/0, it's still blocked.
- Two-Headed Sliver -- you already have enough evasion-giving slivers.
- Abundant Growth -- a nice shenanigan, but won't contribute to your mana pool in the end. Go with another ramp spell instead; I suggest Skyshroud Claim.
- Harsh Mercy -- utterly sucks in multiplayer. Hell, even in single player; your opponent will always pick the creature type most valuable to him and so you'll only get rid of cannon fodder.
- Shadow Sliver -- too deadly a double-edged knife IMO.
- I never run equipment, though I can't bring myself to tell you to cut it. I always go for Crystalline Sliver as soon as I can, which renders all your gear inoperable.
- Vitalize -- if you're looking for a winning condition, go for anything that gives you an extra attack phase. Think World at War.
- Ponder -- on its own it's useless; you need to run more stuff to rearrange your deck, or nothing at all.
- Life // Death -- you need to trim cards from your deck.
- I'd suggest you ran more lands, too: 33 is too few a number, even with artifact mana sources and all.
Hey, with such low costs, don't you think Aluren and Recycle would be dead awesome here? You'd probably have to run Reliquary Tower, too, and keep it in hand until Recycle hits the field.
Now, the final question... I started out the long path to this current build with a list like yours. Having tons of slivers is fun, but inefficient. After tiring of getting curbstomped by the powerhouses in my pod -think Sisay, Sharuum, Mayael and Augustine, to name but a few-, I learned from the other guys here that you need a plan and cut everything that doesn't directly contribute towards that plan. The final product is the decklist on the thread starter. It works, sometimes scarily well, and has achieved a semblance of consistency; it can hold off and win against a table with all of these generals present. But I find myself playing Gaka's Norin deck -sans 3-4 cards that are nigh impossible to find here in Argentina- more often because it's more fun.
Do I mean you should go cutthroat and turn your deck into a prison/stax machine? Definitely not. But slivers *SCARE* other players. That Deadly Threat Threshold I like to name when I discuss slivers on post #2 is no joke. Having more than 3 slivers in play means you pull more aggro than a MMO tank. Hence why I said my next challenge to be building a fun and competitive aggro list, that can play loads and loads of slivers, have a lot of fun at doing so, and remaining stable and solid enough to put up a fight against anything else.
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Just in answer to your last paragraph, that is exactly what I want to do: Throw out a lot of slivers and have fun. Maybe even scare some people.
99% of the magic games I play Are casual with 3 or 4 friends at my kitchen table at 3:00 in the morning. (Un)Fortunately, we all go a little crazy sometimes and do things like waking up one morning and deciding I want to build a sliver deck without owning a single sliver to my name. (Actually, I own like 5, but anyways...)
As far as mana goes, Im still debating the tri lands, but I have a few dual mana laying around (The core ones they just reprinted) I can toss in. Also I'll toss in a Coalition Relic. I think I can manage with a non perfect manabase for now.
I actually had Aluren in there before, but decided to forgo it for giving my opponent an advatage as well. But I really dont think they run many small drops to be honest.
Cut a few cards you mentioned to cut. Including lightning greaves.
Also cut Winged sliver - Pulmonic + Shifting should be enough. Also Spinneret for protection.
Vitalize I think can be fun for mana ramp (with gemhide on the field of course) or as a "My opponant has a 20/20 out on the board and I attacked someone with all my cards to kill them this turn". I'll play test it a bit.
Im kind of afraid of board wipes at this point.
Should I cut Unnatural selection? With crystaline sliver out it is kind of useless, no?
I'm still at 6 cards over =(
Board wipes will totally trash you indeed. There are very few workarounds for this, other than packing more graveyard recursion (Twilight's Call) or stuff like Cauldron of Souls and Ghostway. Most likely the Cauldron.
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Dropped Sidewinder
5 more to cut, AND I want to make room for Lurking Predators.
Just put it into the TCG Player Optimizer, removed what I had or could get easily enough, and it came out to 116.43 with the Queen and Legion which i think im getting through other means. With them removed it comes to 81.50 which is $10 under budget. I think I'm going to do this.
Also, in the same vein as Shifting, Shadow Sliver can straight up end games, for one less U.
I would suggest only using Sliver Legion over Coat of Arms or Door of Destinies.
Cut Heartstone. Training Grounds is more than enough.
Cut Faces of the Past. Cheap trick triggered by death of a sliver. Seedborn Muse if you must untap.
Cut Toxin Sliver. Pseudo deathtouch is only ok.
Cut Hunter Sliver. Provoke is cool, but it usually leads to getting double blocked and few slivers are inherently beefy enough to survive that sort of thing.
Cut Telekinetic Sliver. A dud.
Cut Firewake Sliver. We don't like sacrifice unless it wins games outright. You could probably think of a few other slivers this applys to.
Cut Reflex Sliver. Just trimming some fat here. Heart Sliver only.
Cut Skullclamp. Your slivers will probably be too fat to clamp by the time you have enough to clamp in the first place.
Cut Horned Sliver. This belongs in Legion decks. You want straight up evasion.
Cut Mnemonic Sliver. Looks good on paper. In Overlord decks it usually means draw one card for five mana.
Cut Synchronous Sliver. Five mana for vigilance is terrible.
Cut Cryptic Gateway. It is slow and expensive. You can't cheat in Overlord with it.
Cut Quick Sliver. Even with it we are slow. You have to play a reactive style for this to be useful. Possibly better in 1v1.
Cut Ward Sliver. Between Crystalline and Opaline your dudes should be safe enough.
all i got for now.
1v1 Headquarters
Sliver Overlord (MP, Retired)
Talrand, Sky Summoner (1v1, Budget)
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1v1, Competitive)
This is all good advice!
I will disagree on two things.
First, I play Heartstone for redundancy. Sometimes I just don't get my tutor or draw into Training Grounds. Of course it's worse than TG, but it's still better than nothing.
Second, I play Cryptic Gateway as it's a fun card and gets explosive very fast. I never mind drawing it.
Gref and CruxMDQ are the most studied sliver players I know. Their recommendations will take you far.
That said, please get a lot of shock lands when RTR comes out. Wait until the blue shocks drop a little (they'll be high for the first bit they are in standard), but stock up. I am hoping you have access to Zendikar shocklands as they really help too. Mana base is so important in these decks. My builds usually want green, black, and blue out as fast as they can. But obviously all 5 colors by turn 5 is the goal.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Using your suggestions I cut it down to 97 cards. I also added in Lurking Predators.
Thanks a bunch!
Fill up the remaining spots with lands, says I. Years of hard-earned experience say 36-37 lands to be the magic number
Off-topic: good to see you around again, Danz & Gref. The primer is being mulled over by the committee. Anything you want to add?
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
I want to add that I'm sorry I haven't had time to contribute more.
I had best intentions of going through it all.
I won't even be home for half of October.
Sadly I haven't played EDH with my playgroup in over a year and only get 1v1 about once a month if that.
Did you send out a final copy of the primer? If so, I'd like to read it over. If I see anything out of sorts, I'll let you know. We can mull it over.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Tossed Clot sliver back in for crypt sliver.
And which lands? I just remebered I have: Rootbound Crag, DragonSkull Summit, and Seachrome Coast chilling in my binder. I also have a Vivid Creek, Vivid Crag, and Vivid Grove. Would these be better than the trilands I have in there now? How about City of Brass or Grand Coliseum?
Also, should I toss in a Phyrexian Arena?
The City and the Coliseum make you pay quite a hefty price for their benefit, the City in particular. I'd stick with the Coliseum and grab a Reflecting Pool while I'm at it. Exotic Orchard can be interesting, too, but hinges heavily on whatever you're facing at the moment--think about the other decks in your pod for a second and consider whether they'll make that card useless or not.
The Arena is very useful, but on it's own it won't be particularly effective, especially since you can't tutor it--and you can't protect it either. I would suggest you go for group hug-ish things (and more than just one) if you want to draw more and you're not going to pack countermagic or stuff that makes your permanents harder to target. I'm at a loss of suggestions... I can only offer some advice on what did not work for me when trying out aggro:
- Rhystic Study in your case won't be good since you can't protect it. (On the contrary, since it annoys the hell out of everyone else, it may provoke the table into squashing you. Or worse, a blue player may steal it.)
- Experimenting with things like Howling Mine was disastrous: everyone would draw one extra card before I did, and it would be blown up before I got to profit from it. Ditto Font of Mythos.
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
I'll put Arena on the backburner for now. Reflecting pool is kind of expensive but I'll keep it in mind. i think I'll toss in my Rootbound Crag and Seachrome Coast, just by looking at the mana pie.
With those additions, I think its done? All thats left to do is mass order it off of TCGPlayer and playtest the crap out of it.
Last chance to let me know if I'm making any huge mistakes on the list lol.
- I mean, Survival of the Fittest is one of the most awesome cards ever printed for creature decks, and is priced accordingly. (Which means it costs an arm and a leg.)
- In a similar vein, a more recent thing to try out would be Birthing Pod.
- Also Elvish Piper and Fauna Shaman.
- If you ever got to play the Legion with 4+ slivers in play then Greater Good becomes beyond awesome, but it's exaggeratedly convoluted. If you rack your brains and come up with a creative way to deploy it, I'm all ears.
It all boils down on how much are you willing to spend. I don't even want to dedicate a single instant to measuring the cost of my own deck, but it was worth it.
As a starting point, I'd say your list is okay, but since you're a sliver fan I can tell you're not going to stop there. How about this: let's get to work on a cool aggro list together, budget restrictions be damned, and we can feature it on the thread starter when it's done. This way you'll know what to aim for.
Last-minute edit: you packing Root Sliver?
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Root Sliver - I should be - Root sliver is there now. What should I dump for it? I missed it somehow =(
I considered Birthing Pod, but cut it because the ladder would be too low too get a lot out of it. I want to keep slivers on the field as well. I have birthing Pod in my Riku EDH and it works wonders. Fauna Shamen and Piper could be add ins if I find a particular sliver not working well.
This is exactly what I'm going for starting off - An aggro deck thats fun to play, and something I can build off of. - My current playgroup ranges from Kaalia, Riku (My only other EDH deck lol), Mimeoplasm, Gisela, Niv, Skullbriarer, things like that.
And your absoultely right about me being a Sliver Fan, when I first saw them I fell in love with how they worked and decided I would have a Slvier deck one day. Now is that day.
Unfortunately, cash is a big factor right now. (The only reason I'm able to do this is because I sold my Kindle Fire, and am probably going to trade some pots and pans for the Queen / Legion.) Maybe down the line I can trade for some better cards, especially the Shock lands, but for now the pricing is right where I want it.
As for helping you put together an Aggro list, I'd have to say most of my input would be nonsensical. Let me get a few games under my belt and then maybe I can speak of the glory of aggro slivers. Until then I'm a newbie. You and everyone else in this thread that has helped me are like giants. Even if I build it and it fails, I can always say I had fun building it.
Which RTR cards do you people think that could find a spot in a slivers decklist?
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Off the top of my head:
Chromatic Lantern
Cyclone Rift (All EDH decks running blue will play this I think)
Dreadbore (maybe)
Jarads Orders (For Reanimate lists?)
Edit: Just ordered all the cards I don't have: $68.68 shipped. Hell yea.
Prototype aggro list posted below:
1x Academy Rector
1x Acidic Sliver
1x Basal Sliver
1x Blade Sliver
1x Bonesplitter Sliver
1x Brood Sliver
1x Crystalline Sliver
1x Dormant Sliver
1x Essence Sliver
1x Eternal Witness
1x Firewake Sliver
1x Fury Sliver
1x Gemhide Sliver
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Heart Sliver
1x Hibernation Sliver
1x Homing Sliver
1x Magma Sliver
1x Might Sliver
1x Muscle Sliver
1x Necrotic Sliver
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Plated Sliver
1x Quick Sliver
1x Root Sliver
1x Sedge Sliver
1x Seedguide Ash
1x Shifting Sliver
1x Sinew Sliver
1x Spitting Sliver
1x Synchronous Sliver
1x Talon Sliver
1x Telekinetic Sliver
1x Virulent Sliver
1x Ward Sliver
1x Watcher Sliver
1x Winged Sliver
1x Descendants' Path
1x Detention Sphere
1x Intruder Alarm
1x Lurking Predators
1x Mana Echoes
1x Mana Reflection
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
Land (37)
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Blood Crypt
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Command Tower
1x Deserted Temple
1x Flooded Strand
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x High Market
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Murmuring Bosk
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plateau
1x Polluted Delta
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Taiga
1x Temple Garden
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vesuva
1x Volcanic Island
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Windswept Heath
1x Austere Command
1x Catastrophe
1x Living Death
1x Patriarch's Bidding
1x Primal Surge
1x Shard Convergence
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Wargate
Artifact (7)
1x Birthing Pod
1x Coalition Relic
1x Cryptic Gateway
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Mox Diamond
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
The mana base needs some tuning... as it stands, it desperately hungers for green mana.
I built this first draft trying to make it Primal Surge-friendly (nod to Arekku, here)--hence running stuff like Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere and Seedguide Ash. Going to test run it a bit and see what happens.
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
I can see it working with Overlord though. Heartstone effects really shine here as you have much more possible options to tutor as opposed to a combo or voltron variant where you will probably tutor with Overlord a few times.
1v1 Headquarters
Sliver Overlord (MP, Retired)
Talrand, Sky Summoner (1v1, Budget)
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1v1, Competitive)
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
1v1 Headquarters
Sliver Overlord (MP, Retired)
Talrand, Sky Summoner (1v1, Budget)
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1v1, Competitive)
Just updated the aggro decklist at TappedOut after noticing I somehow missed both the Legion and the Queen. What in blazes was I thinking about?
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Guess who slept on the couch last night?
The All stars of the game had to be Sliver Legion, Ward Sliver, and Virulent Sliver.
Game 1 I managed to get a large enough aggro presence early on and she couldn't keep up. Sliver Legion for the Overkill. (She also said her draws sucked)
Turn 2 had me down to 18 life and 1 or two slivers for 1/2 the game, but then I was able to Slivercycling (via homing sliver) for a Harmonic sliver to take care of her Oblivion Stone, then grab a Gemhide (via Cycling), cast overlord to get Legion and draw into the Virulent Sliver. A ward Sliver also got cast and gaurenteed me the game. This is a very mana intensive deck, I have noticed.
Fun Fun, can't wait to test it out against more people.
For real! Try to keep your curve down. 5cmc or less should be do-able and remain competitive. if you can, keep everything but your 5c slivers at 4cmc or less.
1v1 Headquarters
Sliver Overlord (MP, Retired)
Talrand, Sky Summoner (1v1, Budget)
Sygg, River Cutthroat (1v1, Competitive)
This. So this. Even if I myself pack a few that are over the 4cmc barrier.
Even then, mana fixers, mana doublers and ramp are all your friends. Mana is like firepower... you can never have too much dakka.
[Horde] Phyrexia ascendant - The Virus
WUBRG - [Primer] Sliver Overlord - The Swarm - WUBRG
Each sliver that attacks and isn't blocked will only deal 1 poison counter, even if it's a 10/10.
If blocked they will not deal damage in -1/-1 counters.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB