I agree with OCPunisher. There are a lot better ways to drain life, and a lot better ways to sac creatures. However, if you pull one during a prerelease and try it out, I'd like to hear how it goes.
I also had to pull Braids out of my Chainer deck. For now I slotted in a Bonehoard, but only because I happened to have it sitting there, and wasn't sure what else to put in. I've got some Puca Points saved up, though, so which would be better - Gate to Phyrexia or Necropotence?
Necropotence and it's not really close. There are enough colorless options out there that you don't need to resort to using something as slow as Gate to Phyrexia. Necropotence is still incredibly powerful.
What does everybody run to get rid of troublesome artifacts and enchantments? I've found that there's a lot of stuff that I cant get rid of that is a bit of a pain to play around, such as a pithing needle naming Chainer.
Private Mod Note
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--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
If a Needle on Chainer causes a whole bunch of headache, I would recommend taking your deck in a direction that lessens your relience on our (fairly fragile and decently high cmc) commander. Chainer is such a powerful effect that you don't need to dedicate a ton of slots to making him even better; you can simply play the best black cards while keeping in mind strong synergies (I would likely not play Fleshbag Marauder in, say, a Sheoldred deck) with Chainer. Then you are left with a deck that is lethal and versatile in its own right, and Chainer becomes more of a post-attrition finisher. Once the bins are full and salvos have been cast and volleyed, Chainer comes down for 5 mana and gives you an absurd advantage.
Outside of the Needle example, I would comically say that the best way to rid the board of pesky artifacts/enchantments is your opponents' decks. Let Chainer shine at what he does: turning mono-black into a combination of the best ETB creatures all five colors of Magic have to offer. Myojin forcing the discard of Terastodon into reanimation, etc., etc.
Outside of the Needle example, I would comically say that the best way to rid the board of pesky artifacts/enchantments is your opponents' decks. Let Chainer shine at what he does: turning mono-black into a combination of the best ETB creatures all five colors of Magic have to offer. Myojin forcing the discard of Terastodon into reanimation, etc., etc.
This is a great point. Surely someone in your playgroup uses an Acidic Slime, or the more recently released Reclamation Sage. With Chainer, those belong to us just as much as them.
Very good points, I actually ended up winning the game where chainer got needled early on, it just would've been faster and a bit easier had I had a way to remove the needle, eye of doom sounds like a fun option though, as well as the disk. I'll have to try one of those.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
One other thing you could do is add a redundant effect for these situations. Most people would suggest Geth, Lord of the Vault, and I'm currently trying out Strands of Night.
Bloodsoaked seems like a good fit for a stax-heavy build (another Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Reassembling Skeleton type). I don't know if he's necessary, and might not be active often enough bc I feel we are often not attacking much early. But my build doesn't do stax, so I can't say with too much confidence either way.
Haruspex looks super win-more to me. I don't think he does much if we aren't already doing well, so I would definitely hesitate to include him, personally. Also seems better in a stax=based build, but instead of being an engine, he just adds more advantage to a situation in which we are already likely doing very well. I doubt he helps enough outside of that to justify a spot.
I agree with MrCoupon on Bloodsoaked. I used to play Bloodghast and Reassembling Skeleton but when I moved away from stax they felt useless most of the time.
What I don't like about Haruspex is the lack of "may". I don't like to overdraw without Reliquary Tower.
Grim Haruspex is definitely an auto-include. If it ever gets to the point of drawing too many cards, you can just sacrifice it to one of your many, many sac outlets that every Chainer deck should already have.
Bloodsoaked Champion is not an auto-include in every list. Not every deck can use the extra fodder provided by the likes of Bloodghast, etc. It's also slightly less good than Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, and Nether Traitor in terms of easiest to recur (much easier to play a land, kill another creature, or just pay two mana). Granted, any deck that runs the other three will probably also run this as well, but it's certainly not at the level of Grim Haruspex.
Grim Haruspex is definitely an auto-include. If it ever gets to the point of drawing too many cards, you can just sacrifice it to one of your many, many sac outlets that every Chainer deck should already have.
I tend not to agree with most of this. Haruspex may end up making some lists, but "auto-include" seems like a major stretch. Are you guys swarming the board a whole bunch more than I am? What are your early-game value creatures that are getting sacrificed and/or killed? Because if we are relying on Chainer to make this guy good, it is a very poor inclusion (see my "win-more" post a few responses back). A fragile (doubly fragile, relying on the bodies of Chainer and Haruspex to hold up), life-intensive, still narrow (you also still need a cheap/free sac outlet), and mana intensive means of possibly drawing a few extra cards is *not* an efficient means to build a strong deck.
I also disagree with the notion that Chainer decks "should" be running tons of sac outlets as if it is some undeniable gospel. My deck functions far better without them because it is not bogged down by cards that do nothing if my commander does not resolve/stick or some other unlikely, fragile, and complex scenario does not fall into my lap (see: XHD + Living Death + Phyrexian Altar + enough other creatures). That is a discussion we have had here before, and it is not my desire to rehash an "agree to disagree" point, but it *is* worthwhile to point out that stating Chainer decks *should* run a plethora of sac outlets in a confident manner does not actually make it so.
I have not tried Ob Nixilis, but his cost seems a bit prohibitive and his lack of flash is unfortunate. He is certainly a spicy Chainer target, as that reduces the cost by half and gives it instant speed, but it again seems too narrow in my eyes to be practical. Doesn't seem to do a lot to stop the strategies that beat us, imo.
Ob nixilis has been amazing with marchesa in grixis but in mono B I am not sure he's great. He either grows very fast or dies very fast and only delays tutors for a couple of turns.
my experience with ob is that if he stays around a turn, he'll likely get very big, but will in all likelihood attract removal before he becomes super relevant. At least that's been my experience thus far
Private Mod Note
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--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled has been great for me, I play mono black control with Chainer as card advantage when games go long or I run out of things to play. Anyhow I was lacking a strong finisher and Ob Nix filled this role perfectly; flying trample gets huge AND shoots people in the face for a ton AND kills dudes. I never really understood the whole attracts removal argument, doesn't that just mean it's really good if it attracts removal? Also now they have one less removal spell for my next threat. Plus we are playing Chainer, who cares if they kill it (aside from exile, and this is why you run sac outlets) I'll just undead it. I still need to find a spot for Grim Haruspex. In other news I'm still pretty upset about losing Braids, Cabal Minion as she is one of my favorite cards. I can see the reasoning for banning her as a general, but as one of 99 I didn't find her to be that oppressive, she is easily removed and easily played around. Especially since Smokestack is still legal and way more oppressive and one sided albeit initially slower, and can fit in any deck.
Is Sheoldred, Whispering One really good enough to warrant an inclusion? This may be a stupid question as I'm new to Chainer, but does the effect really add up all that much or is Sheoldred just a fatty with a gigantic target painted on her head, especially in a more competitive meta?
On another note, which is better: Grim Haruspex or Infernal Tribute? Or do they perform completely different roles in the deck?
Is Sheoldred, Whispering One really good enough to warrant an inclusion? This may be a stupid question as I'm new to Chainer, but does the effect really add up all that much or is Sheoldred just a fatty with a gigantic target painted on her head, especially in a more competitive meta?
On another note, which is better: Grim Haruspex or Infernal Tribute? Or do they perform completely different roles in the deck?
haruspex and tribute fulfill different roles in the deck, tribute is best as an instant speed sac outlet to sac cards you've reanimated with chainer or to get more gravepact/dictate of erebos type activations. Sheoldred is awesome. She demands an answer and if she's still kicking it on your next turn, chances are she's done a lot of damage
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
Is Sheoldred, Whispering One really good enough to warrant an inclusion? This may be a stupid question as I'm new to Chainer, but does the effect really add up all that much or is Sheoldred just a fatty with a gigantic target painted on her head, especially in a more competitive meta?
On another note, which is better: Grim Haruspex or Infernal Tribute? Or do they perform completely different roles in the deck?
I like Sheoldred because it starts working almost immediately...all you do is resolve it and pass the turn.
Haruspex is a lot easier to trigger, and comes back with Chainer, so I think I'd prefer it over Tribute.
I also had to pull Braids out of my Chainer deck. For now I slotted in a Bonehoard, but only because I happened to have it sitting there, and wasn't sure what else to put in. I've got some Puca Points saved up, though, so which would be better - Gate to Phyrexia or Necropotence?
Here's the decklist, so you can see what else is in there.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Or, I suppose you could just straight up knock out the guy who played the needle.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
Outside of the Needle example, I would comically say that the best way to rid the board of pesky artifacts/enchantments is your opponents' decks. Let Chainer shine at what he does: turning mono-black into a combination of the best ETB creatures all five colors of Magic have to offer. Myojin forcing the discard of Terastodon into reanimation, etc., etc.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
This is a great point. Surely someone in your playgroup uses an Acidic Slime, or the more recently released Reclamation Sage. With Chainer, those belong to us just as much as them.
WU Bruna UW | R Kiki-Jiki R | RB New Chainer BR
Legacy - Burn | Pauper - Reanimator | Aristocrats | Burn
@votechainer2016
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Haruspex looks super win-more to me. I don't think he does much if we aren't already doing well, so I would definitely hesitate to include him, personally. Also seems better in a stax=based build, but instead of being an engine, he just adds more advantage to a situation in which we are already likely doing very well. I doubt he helps enough outside of that to justify a spot.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
What I don't like about Haruspex is the lack of "may". I don't like to overdraw without Reliquary Tower.
Grim Haruspex is definitely an auto-include. If it ever gets to the point of drawing too many cards, you can just sacrifice it to one of your many, many sac outlets that every Chainer deck should already have.
Bloodsoaked Champion is not an auto-include in every list. Not every deck can use the extra fodder provided by the likes of Bloodghast, etc. It's also slightly less good than Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, and Nether Traitor in terms of easiest to recur (much easier to play a land, kill another creature, or just pay two mana). Granted, any deck that runs the other three will probably also run this as well, but it's certainly not at the level of Grim Haruspex.
EDIT: Has anyone else tried out Ob Nixilis, Unshackled yet? I play in a meta where everyone is casting Rampant Growths and Demonic Tutors nearly every turn, so it seems pretty strong.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
I tend not to agree with most of this. Haruspex may end up making some lists, but "auto-include" seems like a major stretch. Are you guys swarming the board a whole bunch more than I am? What are your early-game value creatures that are getting sacrificed and/or killed? Because if we are relying on Chainer to make this guy good, it is a very poor inclusion (see my "win-more" post a few responses back). A fragile (doubly fragile, relying on the bodies of Chainer and Haruspex to hold up), life-intensive, still narrow (you also still need a cheap/free sac outlet), and mana intensive means of possibly drawing a few extra cards is *not* an efficient means to build a strong deck.
I also disagree with the notion that Chainer decks "should" be running tons of sac outlets as if it is some undeniable gospel. My deck functions far better without them because it is not bogged down by cards that do nothing if my commander does not resolve/stick or some other unlikely, fragile, and complex scenario does not fall into my lap (see: XHD + Living Death + Phyrexian Altar + enough other creatures). That is a discussion we have had here before, and it is not my desire to rehash an "agree to disagree" point, but it *is* worthwhile to point out that stating Chainer decks *should* run a plethora of sac outlets in a confident manner does not actually make it so.
I have not tried Ob Nixilis, but his cost seems a bit prohibitive and his lack of flash is unfortunate. He is certainly a spicy Chainer target, as that reduces the cost by half and gives it instant speed, but it again seems too narrow in my eyes to be practical. Doesn't seem to do a lot to stop the strategies that beat us, imo.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Wondering if I can get some input on my current list. I need to cut about 4-6 cards from the following:
1 Burnished Hart
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Crypt Ghast
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Disciple of Griselbrand
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Mindslicer
1 Nekrataal
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 Pilgrim's Eye
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sangromancer
1 Slum Reaper
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Undercity Informer
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Dictate of Erebos
1 Grave Pact
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Necropotence
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Strands of Night
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Caged Sun
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Claws of Gix
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Karn Liberated
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Skullclamp
1 Spawning Pit
1 Trading Post
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Damnation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Exsanguinate
1 Mutilate
1 Syphon Mind
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
On another note, which is better: Grim Haruspex or Infernal Tribute? Or do they perform completely different roles in the deck?
haruspex and tribute fulfill different roles in the deck, tribute is best as an instant speed sac outlet to sac cards you've reanimated with chainer or to get more gravepact/dictate of erebos type activations. Sheoldred is awesome. She demands an answer and if she's still kicking it on your next turn, chances are she's done a lot of damage
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I like Sheoldred because it starts working almost immediately...all you do is resolve it and pass the turn.
Haruspex is a lot easier to trigger, and comes back with Chainer, so I think I'd prefer it over Tribute.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani