Now Food Chain is an interesting choice. If done right, I could net 6 mana per cast, in all different colors, and theoretically reanimate a chunk of my graveyard, if that works the way I believe it does. Each new instance of Karador should allow me to cast another creature, should it not? This could be quite an interesting idea... Thank you Soma, I now have something entirely new and unexpected to consider. This WILL push back my work on my next deck, but the payoff could be very much worth it. What would you suggest I cut for it?
Drop Night's Whisper for graveborn muse and Mind's eye for birthing pod. Drawing cards is nice, but your primary goal is to sac creatures and abuse creatures. Since you don't have any reliable way to give them flash, mind's eye seems like a waste, especially when green and black have amazing card advantage engines. Drop the yavimaya elder for bloodghast. Also... put cabal coffers in there... don't ask, just do it.
I highly suggest you run birthing pod... actually, just run it. I would also drop magus of the disk for woodfall primus, so you can sac it to greater good. I would drop garruck for greater good. My list tends to run less actual non creature removal and board wipes since I have a sac engine with savra and gravepact. Just a preference, but I would look at all your non creature cards and ask "would this be better if i dropped it for a creature?"
If i'm playing with Ravnica Bouncelands, I like to play with Exploration and Burgeoning, and with those, I love my card draw.
You're playing very creature light, though, so I wouldn't expect you to run Greater Good and Momentous Fall. Multani, Maro Sorceror is still pretty fantastic though. Giant shroudy beater on the cheaps.
You've got the Knight of the Reliquary thing going on, so pop in a Flagstones of Trokair. It also works nicely with the aforementioned Harrow, if you decide to have that later.
To answer your question, I think Grand Abolisher would probably not jive in your deck. Do you really have a problem with people casting spells/abilities during your turn? Are you that afraid of counter spells? If you're not, then Grand Abolisher really won't do much.
As mentioned earlier, True Believer may have a place in your deck as it can stop one of the two major threats to your deck (Bojuka Bog). It may end up helping you in other ways that I can't think of.
Also, Pithing Needle stops Relic of Progenitus which is the other major threat for your deck. Not sure if it can find a spot in your deck without a major overhaul. Additionally, you'd have trouble getting Pithing Needle back from the graveyard if it was destroyed, you would have to play it before Relic of Progenitus comes out, and it would signal to everyone that you're going to abuse your graveyard.
Out of the many games I've played, something I want to keep always gets exiled. Riftsweeper ain't the best because he shuffles it back into your library. Pull from Eternity puts an exiled card directly into your graveyard.
I'll second the comment on Graveborn Muse as it may be easier for you to retrieve if it goes to the graveyard compared to Phyrexian Arena (although both is good too). Of course it's probably easier to destroy but it increases the amount of creatures in your deck (it sort of feels wrong to run 25% creatures in a deck that's all about a reanimation general).
I think True Believer is definitely a good answer to troublesome cards like Bog, Crypt, and Relic. However, my worry is that he may be too unreliable. First, you have to have him out before they nuke your graveyard. Second, he has to stay alive. Third, if he dies, you have to stall your plans of recurring meaningful threats and answers in a preemptive attempt to combat grave hate that may or may not even be in your opponent's hands at the moment. All of this is to say, I really like the concept of playing with him, but I worry about the efficacy. I haven't tested him yet myself though, but I may pick one up and try it out soon.
Here are some other cards that I have been having decent results with. Mostly I started playing them because I still lack some of the cards in the primer and they were among the good cards I had in the colors, but I was curious if Icebear and the rest of you guys have tried these out and what your opinions were.
Novablast Wurm - this guy can just be such a beating with a Greaves out. I don't have a Magus of the Disk yet, but he seems to function in a similar way. He's not as synergistic with the Muse, but he's also a threat + recurrable removal in one card.
Butcher of Malakir and Grave Pact - I've never really imagined black decks with these cards, but sometimes I feel like I don't have enough sac outlets, or that I don't have enough fodder hanging around to sack. They do make recurring an Elder all sorts of insane card advantage, though. I don't have either Sword, so these are hanging around in those spots for now. I'd be interested to hear of some other options.
Spike Weaver - This guy I really think should find its way into the list. I've had nothing but great results with him. He can protect you from 3 people's attack phases, and then can be brought back by Karador for another round. In a 4 or less player game, he gives people a huge incentive to bother someone else. And he's hard to remove from the game, since you can just dump his counters in response to a Swords or Path. This is my go-to defensive creature, bar none.
Academy Rector - This is taking the spot of Demonic Tutor for now. I play with a Debtor's Knell (I don't have a Minds Eye, so Knell's taking that spot), but this also gets Wake or Survival just as often. He seems good, but I don't know if I would take out one of the black tutors if I had them. Any thoughts on this guy?
Avatar of Woe - I don't have an Avenger, so right now this is my substitute good stuff high end threat. The cost discount comes into play alot slower than I imagined it would, actually. I do like her power when she finally gets online, though. I dunno, she feels win-more sometimes.
Vish Kal - This is taking Sun Titan's spot. I do really want a Sun Titan, but I'm kinda liking Vish Kal. One thing I noticed that this deck doesn't really have is a way to match up with someone else's mega creature (like a Mimeoplasm who ate a Death's Shadow, or a Vigor-enhanced flier, or some other example of the crazy giant creature that somehow manages to get assembed). Sure, you can try to kill it, but often these mega creatures will annoyingly decide to gain shroud somehow. Suffice to say, there are occasions where the only way to deal with that 20/20 flying hasted shrouded monster is to just block it. Enter Vish Kal.. give him a turn or two eating a Novablast, Terrestodon, Eternal Dragon, or what have you, and he's ready to rumble with the best of them. On top of that, its nice to have one or two ways to gain life somewhere in the deck if you get down in a long game and want to pull out of burn range. Plus he's removal in a pinch.
Finally, I'm filling up a few more missing spots with more wrath effects and a couple other mana rocks (darksteel ingot, gilded lotus). Have you felt a desire for more of either of these types of cards? I'm trying to determine how much I want to keep them in after I pick up more cards for the deck.
Thanks for the great primer and to all those contributing to this informative discussion. This is my first serious EDH deck, and I thank all you guys for helping me pick and tune a very fun general. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
Hey guys, thanks for some great food for thought. Let's go through these ideas one by one, shall we?
Kryptnyt, Exploration and Burgeoning are both excellent cards (the former moreso), but I sadly don't know if I could fit them in. Greater Good, however, might merit a spot. I gotta actually test this puppy out before making any final decisions.
As for Flagstones of Trokair, I would probably need to cut a basic for it, but I have so many cards that look for basics as is that I fear I might run out. It IS really powerful with Knight of the Reliquary, so I'll test it perhaps.
Disruptive, I probably agree with you on Grand Abolisher. It doesn't feel like it does enough, but it is an easy way to stop people from letting me hit my big Genesis Wave or some necessary reanimation. Just an idle thought.
I agree that True Believer might warrant a spot, so I'm gonna dig around for something to cut for him. Rather than run Pithing Needle, since I'm so heavily into creatures, I could just run Phyrexian Revoker. Accomplishes the same thing, but is much easier to find.
Graveborn Muse does seem at the very least decent, but what would you suggest cutting for it (besides Night's Whisper, since that's a distinct possibility already)?
Also, I appreciate you taking my words to heart, and I'm sorry if I was overly rude; I do appreciate the help, and these have been really helpful insights, so thank you.
Talanos, let me personally extend a hand of welcome to the world of (somewhat) competitive EDH, to Karador as a general, and to my thread. It's an absolute honor to receive praise from people, and hearing that my primer is helping others makes me feel really good about writing it; the goal was to help others out via my own experiences, and I'm pleased to see results. Anyway, on to your suggestions.
I'm only hesitant on Novablast Wurm because while he is insanely powerful removal, I worry about his potential as a finisher, especially when Avenger of Zendikar needs his buddies to stick. Still, the Wurm does drown other people in board presence, and helps as a blocker if you don't wanna let loose. Magus of the Disk hasn't been wild for me yet, but I haven't done too much testing with him, so I will let you know.
Butcher of Malakir and Gravepact are both really powerful, but I personally think neither belongs in this deck. We're not abusing sacrifice engines here, we're simply playing threats and recovering faster than our opponents. Excellent cards, but they belong in decks like Savra, Teysa, and Lyzolda (the last of which is my next project, as it were).
I'll confess, I never even thought of putting Spike Weaver in here. He does seem like a powerful defensive card, and absolutely hoses swarm/voltron strategies, so he might be worth a look. He might actually replace Magus of the Disk because I have him in the deck primarily to deal with those sorts of decks, but losing out on the ability to stop some artifact shenanigans might be too big a hit. Definitely going on the watch list though.
I played with Academy Rector a long time ago, and I didn't like it. I was playing Teneb at the time, and I was less reliant on my graveyard. Now that I'm more dependent on it, I feel like I'll like Academy Rector even less. That exile clause is just too big of a detriment. We like reusing our tools, not using them for one powerful maneuver.
I had the same problems with Avatar of Woe. She just never felt good enough, and always took too long to be relevant. To merge this with your next choice, I think Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter is a decent replacement of her, and somewhat functions the same. Plus, he makes a really powerful beatstick. However, I STRONGLY recommend Sun Titan. He's just too powerful to ignore.
I personally try to stick to spells that ramp my lands, rather than getting mana rocks. They're too difficult to search for, and we just aren't in the right colors for them. We have access to green and its ramp, so let's use it!
It is an absolute pleasure every time I see new activity on this thread. If you guys have any questions about specific things and would prefer to ask privately, or want to PM me a decklist to look at, you are always welcome. Hope to hear some more progress from all of you soon. Cheers!
I like this deck. I myself play Ghave (with a strong graveyard theme) and this thread gave me quite a few ideas. Here are my thoughts: I don't know how many creatures you have out in a average board position but even if it was almost always empty chord of calling is insanely good because it not only tutors, but lets you use your creatures (and their etb effects) at instant. It's especially nice if you have seedborn muse out and return it to your hand every turn to your hand with eternal witness. It is almost strictly better than eldamris call, so I would cut it for chord if you don't find anything else.
Another suggestion would be sweepers on creatures that are not tap effects like on magus of the disk but can be used the moment they enter the battlefield like sunblast angel or myojin of cleansing fire. They are especially good with chord of calling and the latter is amazing board position all by himself (I wonder why he doesn't see play more often in EDH)
Volgano -- how is Myojin good with Chord of Calling? Doesn't putting him into play via a tutor deprive him of the divinity counter? Your point is taken on Chord, though, especially since I don't have a Call but I do have a Chord. I will test it out and see how I like it.
IceBear -- Thanks much for your detailed response and the warm welcome. Some follow up thoughts; I'm not really sure what you'd want to take out, as I don't have all your cards and don't know how some of them perform, but I would suggest that you find something to swap and try these two out, just to see for yourself how they work. I'd love to hear your perspective after testing.
Novablast Wurm: perhaps he's worked out for me since I don't have an Avenger, lol. I am trying to get a Magus of the Disk, and I don't think I would really replace the Wurm with it, since they serve different functions. The Wurm is a blunt instrument, removal + pressure, and is a good way to just force through a stalemate. Magus seems to me to be much more a defensive option; something that sits around and tempers any attempts to go all in against you. Plus, as you say, it's still nice to have a way to nuke pesky enchantments and artifcats in one fell swoop. Especially since our mana base is more ramp than rock.
Spike weaver: as I said, you really need to test him. He's awesome. I don't think there's any other creature you can tutor for or recur that will save you the way he can on the turn you need saving.
I don't have either Sword. How key have those been for you? Is it just that they are good and that you have them, so you play them, or do you find them very important to the deck?
Sounds like Sun Titan definitely falls into that must-get category, as does Loam, neither of which I have yet. I think those will be my first two purchases.
Volgano -- how is Myojin good with Chord of Calling? Doesn't putting him into play via a tutor deprive him of the divinity counter?
whoops sry, I should read more carefully.
Anyway, another card I missed in those lists is stoneforge mystic. Is there any reason not to? I would play him just to get skullclamp more often. Also what do you think about nim deathmantle?
Since people have started mentioning equipment, I'll give my thoughts on the matter. I assume this deck is for multiplayer. Therefore, equipment needs to be analyzed as though it were in a multiplayer game rather than a 1v1 game. Cards like the //gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&subtype=+[%22Equipment%22">&name=+[%22Sword%20of%22]+[and]"]Swords, Umezawa's Jitte and Nim's Deathmantle are all decent in 1v1 but are marginal in multiplayer. In my opinion, Darksteel Plate should be the first equipment you consider playing if you're going to play equipment. It might even have more use to you than Lightning Greaves. The Plate has appeared in a few of my games and makes the creature it's equipped to immune to my wrath effects. It really is a great card in multiplayer. Skullclamp comes in a close second I think, although in some situations it would be first.
While searching through Gatherer, I found Exclusion Ritual. Just like Vindicate but it exiles and it's cheap (monetary wise). The second ability is gravy. Gets silly with Flicker effects.
Spore Frog is nice but shouldn't be considered over Spike Weaver. Spike Weaver fogs 3 times per reanimation compared to Spore Frog's 1. If you want a second fog effect, then sure, go ahead. Otherwise, stick with Spike Weaver.
I didn't think enough about Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter and would like to second the recommendation for him. I've been playing with Phantom Nishoba and really like him for the life gain. Having a second source of life gain would be awesome, especially off the back of a Tooth and Nail when I feel my death is coming soon. I've also been having trouble with flying creatures (angels, dragons, and crap) so this guy is really good.
Every game I've played, I've seen other players dig into their graveyard (even a URNin deck). I'd really suggest you do anything to find a spot for Stone Cloaker. This card got me really scared when I saw how it was being used (the only thing that stopped it was a Wheel of Fortune. It has flash and can instantly remove a single card in any graveyard for 2W in case something gets targeted. It can also continually do this over and over again if you have the manadue to it's ETB ability. It has to return a creature to its owners hand when it comes into play; why not itself?
I'd only dedicate one slot in your deck (if you intend to dedicate one at all) to protection from Bojuka Bog and exile effects. Up to you: True Believer, Riftsweeper, or Pull from Eternity. Each has pros/cons and I can't decide for myself as I don't run any of them.
I'd also recommend you replacing Bojuka Bog in your list with something else that produces B. I've seen Vesuva played in many games and you're just asking to be screwed over when someone plays Vesuva, copies your Bog, and exiles your graveyard. Of course, you can keep it in if you decide to run True Believer.
For your questions/statements, I forgot about Phyrexian Revoker. If you were to include an effect like Pithing Needle, you'd want the Phyrexian Revoker instead.
Also, True Believer doesn't stop Relic of Progenitus as the Relic doesn't target. It actually removes ALL graveyards from the game rather than "targeted player's" graveyard. Another point for Phyrexian Revoker.
I mentioned my opinion on the swords above but I'll expand it here. Has Sword of Fire and Ice really done a lot for you when you've drawn it? Have you had creatures on the board that you could attach the sword to? Did the sword survive long enough that you could attack with it? Where you able to trigger its effect multiple times in a game (if not at least once)? I think the sword's effect isn't big enough for what you have to go about doing in order to get it to trigger. Protection from two colors isn't as good as the indestructibility of Darksteel Plate and doing 2 damage and drawing a card is nice only when it can be done easily and often. This card is what I think should be taken out for Graveborn Muse. Screw the protection, she does 3 damage and let's you draw a card every turn (even if blocked). She's also easier to get back from your graveyard compared to the sword.
If you're really obsessed with not having your Genesis Wave countered (and all that mana and therefore your turn lost), you can try running Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Hurts like hell, though. Or even better, run Living Wish which brings a lot more utility (and lets you choose between Grand Abolisher or Boseiju or any other creature/land). The problem with wishes though is you need to know exactly what you're looking for and where to find it in your collection, otherwise you end up wasting everyone's time.
If I am gonna play a fog effect, I'm gonna go with Spike Weaver. Phyrexian Revoker is gonna get a closer look, as is True Believer. With both of them in the deck, I should be pretty resistant to grave hate. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty useful, but I might test out the Darksteel Plate instead. Both swords are primarily in the deck because I own them, they're good, and because I occasionally play 1v1. Stonecloaker and Novablast Wurm are both gonna get another look as well. Sorry for the short response tonight guys, I'm rather tired and need to get up for work in the morning. Thanks for some ideas though!
Karador is my next project (one of many :rolleyes:), and this primer has been really useful. Cool deck!
I'll cast a vote for Spike Weaver, too. Foggy Spike (and Survival of the Fittest) was the first thing I thought of when I decided to build Karador. I love that guy.
It seems like you have only one sac outlet (unless I overlooked something) - High Market. It seems to me that this deck would like a few more since it wants to play out of the graveyard. You have a bunch of critters that can sac themselves (either through "sac me" abilities or echo), but I'm curious if a couple more sacrifice for fun and profit cards could find a place here. Thoughts?
I've been derping around Gatherer and found some additional cards worth consideration. Take or leave it as befits your deck.
Planar Cleansing: Non-cycling Akroma's Vengeance with practically the same mana cost (3WWW instead of 4WW) and also hits planeswalkers. Much better than Magus of the Disk since it goes off right away rather than waiting until your next turn.
Desert Twister: Never saw you reply about this card. Mono-G version of Vindicate that's cheaper on your wallet but more expensive on your mana base.
Mangara of Corondor: Although it's a creature which exiles itself rather than sacrifices and it can't use it's ability the turn it comes into play, it offers a Vindicate-like effect which gets around indestructibility by exiling the target. Might also give you a reason to replace Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mortify or Putrefy if you want to play more creatures.
Karmic Justice: Gives a repeatable-Vindicate whenever an opponent destroys one of your lands, artifacts, enchantments or planeswalkers. At the very least, something will likely come along and destroy Karmic Justice and you'll get one Vindicate effect. It's good by itself and good when you have a bunch of artifacts/enchantments on the board. If some noob plays Armageddon, you can destroy his win conditions. Also, can replace Beast Within which I don't think is all that great of a card (EDITfor multiplayer).
Viridian Zealot: Plays into your silly sub-theme of sacrificing all your creatures but whatever. Gets rid of an artifact/enchantment and can then be recurred as needed. He costs a buck or two though.
Capashen Unicorn: IT'S A FRACKIN' UNICORN! But it's also cheap. Does the same thing as Viridian Zealot but you have to wait a turn. This guy and Viridian Zealot play nicely with Sun Titan and Reveillark.
Sylvoc Replica: I don't know why I didnt' mention this guy earlier; he's been in my deck since before you even started this thread. Costs 3 to cast and G to blow up. Has a recursion combo with Glissa, The Traitor (who I hear is good at blocking).
Devout Witness: I play online so this guy isn't available to me. He can be Fauna Shaman #2 but instead of tutoring a creature he Naturalizes/Disenchants something (why play and sacrifice a creature when you can put them directly into your graveyard).
Have you considered Greenseeker for this deck? I'm currently running in my Karador deck and I really like it. Being able to throw creatures into the graveyard and guaranteeing yourself lands for the low cost of G-Tap? I'm down with that all day.
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All Generals I've attempted in EDH:
Rith, Rhys, Ghave, Karador, Oona, Wrexial, Uril, Animar, Damia, Mimeoplasm
I've been playing The Mimeoplasm as my general since Commander came out, and was going to make the deck a simple 1v1, and make a Ghave deck for multiplayer ("Saproling Suicide"). However, I came to the conclusion that the deck needed to be competitive, as my meta has some competitive players. We have a Wort and Ezuri deck to name just a few.
Stumbling upon yours, I ordered the cards I could to make the deck, however I had to make some minor changes in the mana base (I couldn't get some of the non-basic lands) and other cards. Since creating the deck earlier last wek, the deck went 3-1 at our EDH tournament, losing only to a Lady of Scrolls deck. However, it has a 100% win rate against my friend's Wort deck - something no one has since he's been working on it for years. The deck has had multiple chances to be killed in single player and multiplayer EDH games, and has had only one loss to the 1v1 Lady of Scrolls deck.
Overall, I find the consistency of this deck shocking and quite frightening. There have been a lot of moments where I thought I would be killed when I was ganged up on, only to top deck into something that gives me the few turns I need to turn the game around. I'm very impressed with this deck's multiplayer capability, and amazed that that same capability transfers to singleplayer as well.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Second, it makes me especially proud to see this deck succeed for others as it has for me. I'm glad you looked to my list and that it helped you succeed against other finely tuned decks. I can say from experience that Azami is a tough nut to crack, but going 3-1 is nothing to sneeze at, so congrats!
If I might ask, what changes did you make to the non-land cards? I'm always looking for things that are successful, and any options would be much appreciated. I'm glad you love the deck, and I hope it continues to be successful for you; mostly, I'm just glad I could help in some way.
Rout > Day of Judgment
Pernicious Deed > Plague Wind
Life From The Loam > Syphon Flesh
Sword of Light and Shadow > Sword of Feast and Famine
Fierce Empath > Brutalizer Exarch
Karmic Guide > Artidan of Kozilek
Survival of the Fittest > Fauna Shaman
Sword of Fire and Ice > Sword of War and Peace
Sylvan Library > Primeval Titan
Skyshroud Claim > Solemn Simulacrum
Fetid Heath > Swamp
Godless Shrine > Plains
High Market > Mystifying Maze
Horizon Canopy > Stirring Wildwood
Overgrown Tomb > Forest
Tainted Field > Plains
Temple Garden > Razorverge Thicket
Windswpet Heath > Sunpetal Grove
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I love Karador. I recently built a deck with him at the helm, but my deck is pure creatures. Lands and creatures only. Its really fun, and for some reason...it works. Have you thought about Solemn Simulacrum? Its absolutely great. I would agree on thinking about Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter. He's expensive, but he give a great sac outlet to use your ETB creatures (like the aforementioned sad robot) to kill problematic creatures.
I agree with the list wanting more sac outlets - as others have said greater good should be in, and dimir house guard is creature-tutorable, serves as an outlet and can tutor stuff (good stuff like birthing pod [which i'm finding great myself] or defense of the heart) himself. Phyrexian altar is my favorite option personally, more mana (and of any colour!) is always good. I've pulled wins out of nowhere by sacking avenger tokens to it to go really big. Undead gladiator is another option to dump stuff In the yard - its slow but it even draws you cards as it Goes.
Also while it doesn't have To be a main focus of the deck, combo outs are always nice, especially with all your tutors. Yosei has been Mentioned and is great with karador and of course there is lark/karmic guide which i assume is in (on my iphone, not gonna go check the front page) but in these colours i'd shoehorn melira, sylvok outcast in. woodfall primus should already be in here and imo so should kitchen finks, so It shouldn't shake the list up too much. Also sometimes a deck just needs big dumb beaters like spiritmonger and phantom nishoba (which is larkable btw, not many think of this). Also I have to agree with everyone saying jens is a must-include, and from my experience birthing pod is worth including. I'll suggest cuts for this stuff later when not on my phone, and maybe post my list.
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Standard: Humanimator
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
I blasted through this thread so forgive me if what I said has already been mentioned:
If you are keeping with the survival of the fittest game plan, my suggestion is to find space for disentomb and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (or maybe Ulamog). With either survival, fauna shaman, disentomb, or some way of discarding the titan from your hand (greater good works well in this case), you can have ultimate graveyard protection, able to respond to anything from a Relic to Tormod's Crypt by pitching the titan to the yard, and shuffling it all back into your library.
If I am gonna play a fog effect, I'm gonna go with Spike Weaver. Phyrexian Revoker is gonna get a closer look, as is True Believer. With both of them in the deck, I should be pretty resistant to grave hate. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty useful, but I might test out the Darksteel Plate instead. Both swords are primarily in the deck because I own them, they're good, and because I occasionally play 1v1. Stonecloaker and Novablast Wurm are both gonna get another look as well. Sorry for the short response tonight guys, I'm rather tired and need to get up for work in the morning. Thanks for some ideas though!
Icebear, glad to see you're interested in trying Spike Weaver and Novablast Wurm. The only other suggestions I would make based on the cards I have tested is Vish Kal. The more I play him, the more I like him. I feel like every EDH deck needs one creature that can be over the top, and he does that while also being a high end sac outlet and removal option all in one. The lifelink comes in handy too. I rarely go looking for him, but I'm always surprisingly happy to see him.
I don't have a Garruk, but I did just get a Primeval Titan. If you had one, would you put him in Garruk's spot, or should I be looking for a Garruk as well?
How's True Believer working for you? I haven't had a chance to test him yet, but he's on my short list. In theory, I worry that he won't be around when you need him, but in practice he may be more consistent than I fear.
In regards to Stonecloaker, I'm debating between him and Withered Wretch for the anti-gy creature. Does anyone have any thoughts on the two? Wretch is clearly cheaper to activate and can sweep multiple cards much faster, but he's harder to protect. I'm thinking that since we have Bog for large scale gy removal, it may be better to go for Stonecloaker as a pinpoint option, but I'm still undecided.
If you could only get one for now, which would you get: Reflecting Pool or Vesuva?
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I highly suggest you run birthing pod... actually, just run it. I would also drop magus of the disk for woodfall primus, so you can sac it to greater good. I would drop garruck for greater good. My list tends to run less actual non creature removal and board wipes since I have a sac engine with savra and gravepact. Just a preference, but I would look at all your non creature cards and ask "would this be better if i dropped it for a creature?"
You're playing very creature light, though, so I wouldn't expect you to run Greater Good and Momentous Fall. Multani, Maro Sorceror is still pretty fantastic though. Giant shroudy beater on the cheaps.
You've got the Knight of the Reliquary thing going on, so pop in a Flagstones of Trokair. It also works nicely with the aforementioned Harrow, if you decide to have that later.
As mentioned earlier, True Believer may have a place in your deck as it can stop one of the two major threats to your deck (Bojuka Bog). It may end up helping you in other ways that I can't think of.
Also, Pithing Needle stops Relic of Progenitus which is the other major threat for your deck. Not sure if it can find a spot in your deck without a major overhaul. Additionally, you'd have trouble getting Pithing Needle back from the graveyard if it was destroyed, you would have to play it before Relic of Progenitus comes out, and it would signal to everyone that you're going to abuse your graveyard.
Out of the many games I've played, something I want to keep always gets exiled. Riftsweeper ain't the best because he shuffles it back into your library. Pull from Eternity puts an exiled card directly into your graveyard.
I'll second the comment on Graveborn Muse as it may be easier for you to retrieve if it goes to the graveyard compared to Phyrexian Arena (although both is good too). Of course it's probably easier to destroy but it increases the amount of creatures in your deck (it sort of feels wrong to run 25% creatures in a deck that's all about a reanimation general).
Here are some other cards that I have been having decent results with. Mostly I started playing them because I still lack some of the cards in the primer and they were among the good cards I had in the colors, but I was curious if Icebear and the rest of you guys have tried these out and what your opinions were.
Novablast Wurm - this guy can just be such a beating with a Greaves out. I don't have a Magus of the Disk yet, but he seems to function in a similar way. He's not as synergistic with the Muse, but he's also a threat + recurrable removal in one card.
Butcher of Malakir and Grave Pact - I've never really imagined black decks with these cards, but sometimes I feel like I don't have enough sac outlets, or that I don't have enough fodder hanging around to sack. They do make recurring an Elder all sorts of insane card advantage, though. I don't have either Sword, so these are hanging around in those spots for now. I'd be interested to hear of some other options.
Spike Weaver - This guy I really think should find its way into the list. I've had nothing but great results with him. He can protect you from 3 people's attack phases, and then can be brought back by Karador for another round. In a 4 or less player game, he gives people a huge incentive to bother someone else. And he's hard to remove from the game, since you can just dump his counters in response to a Swords or Path. This is my go-to defensive creature, bar none.
Academy Rector - This is taking the spot of Demonic Tutor for now. I play with a Debtor's Knell (I don't have a Minds Eye, so Knell's taking that spot), but this also gets Wake or Survival just as often. He seems good, but I don't know if I would take out one of the black tutors if I had them. Any thoughts on this guy?
Avatar of Woe - I don't have an Avenger, so right now this is my substitute good stuff high end threat. The cost discount comes into play alot slower than I imagined it would, actually. I do like her power when she finally gets online, though. I dunno, she feels win-more sometimes.
Vish Kal - This is taking Sun Titan's spot. I do really want a Sun Titan, but I'm kinda liking Vish Kal. One thing I noticed that this deck doesn't really have is a way to match up with someone else's mega creature (like a Mimeoplasm who ate a Death's Shadow, or a Vigor-enhanced flier, or some other example of the crazy giant creature that somehow manages to get assembed). Sure, you can try to kill it, but often these mega creatures will annoyingly decide to gain shroud somehow. Suffice to say, there are occasions where the only way to deal with that 20/20 flying hasted shrouded monster is to just block it. Enter Vish Kal.. give him a turn or two eating a Novablast, Terrestodon, Eternal Dragon, or what have you, and he's ready to rumble with the best of them. On top of that, its nice to have one or two ways to gain life somewhere in the deck if you get down in a long game and want to pull out of burn range. Plus he's removal in a pinch.
Finally, I'm filling up a few more missing spots with more wrath effects and a couple other mana rocks (darksteel ingot, gilded lotus). Have you felt a desire for more of either of these types of cards? I'm trying to determine how much I want to keep them in after I pick up more cards for the deck.
Thanks for the great primer and to all those contributing to this informative discussion. This is my first serious EDH deck, and I thank all you guys for helping me pick and tune a very fun general. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions.
-Tal
Kryptnyt, Exploration and Burgeoning are both excellent cards (the former moreso), but I sadly don't know if I could fit them in. Greater Good, however, might merit a spot. I gotta actually test this puppy out before making any final decisions.
As for Flagstones of Trokair, I would probably need to cut a basic for it, but I have so many cards that look for basics as is that I fear I might run out. It IS really powerful with Knight of the Reliquary, so I'll test it perhaps.
Disruptive, I probably agree with you on Grand Abolisher. It doesn't feel like it does enough, but it is an easy way to stop people from letting me hit my big Genesis Wave or some necessary reanimation. Just an idle thought.
I agree that True Believer might warrant a spot, so I'm gonna dig around for something to cut for him. Rather than run Pithing Needle, since I'm so heavily into creatures, I could just run Phyrexian Revoker. Accomplishes the same thing, but is much easier to find.
Graveborn Muse does seem at the very least decent, but what would you suggest cutting for it (besides Night's Whisper, since that's a distinct possibility already)?
Also, I appreciate you taking my words to heart, and I'm sorry if I was overly rude; I do appreciate the help, and these have been really helpful insights, so thank you.
Talanos, let me personally extend a hand of welcome to the world of (somewhat) competitive EDH, to Karador as a general, and to my thread. It's an absolute honor to receive praise from people, and hearing that my primer is helping others makes me feel really good about writing it; the goal was to help others out via my own experiences, and I'm pleased to see results. Anyway, on to your suggestions.
I'm only hesitant on Novablast Wurm because while he is insanely powerful removal, I worry about his potential as a finisher, especially when Avenger of Zendikar needs his buddies to stick. Still, the Wurm does drown other people in board presence, and helps as a blocker if you don't wanna let loose. Magus of the Disk hasn't been wild for me yet, but I haven't done too much testing with him, so I will let you know.
Butcher of Malakir and Gravepact are both really powerful, but I personally think neither belongs in this deck. We're not abusing sacrifice engines here, we're simply playing threats and recovering faster than our opponents. Excellent cards, but they belong in decks like Savra, Teysa, and Lyzolda (the last of which is my next project, as it were).
I'll confess, I never even thought of putting Spike Weaver in here. He does seem like a powerful defensive card, and absolutely hoses swarm/voltron strategies, so he might be worth a look. He might actually replace Magus of the Disk because I have him in the deck primarily to deal with those sorts of decks, but losing out on the ability to stop some artifact shenanigans might be too big a hit. Definitely going on the watch list though.
I played with Academy Rector a long time ago, and I didn't like it. I was playing Teneb at the time, and I was less reliant on my graveyard. Now that I'm more dependent on it, I feel like I'll like Academy Rector even less. That exile clause is just too big of a detriment. We like reusing our tools, not using them for one powerful maneuver.
I had the same problems with Avatar of Woe. She just never felt good enough, and always took too long to be relevant. To merge this with your next choice, I think Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter is a decent replacement of her, and somewhat functions the same. Plus, he makes a really powerful beatstick. However, I STRONGLY recommend Sun Titan. He's just too powerful to ignore.
I personally try to stick to spells that ramp my lands, rather than getting mana rocks. They're too difficult to search for, and we just aren't in the right colors for them. We have access to green and its ramp, so let's use it!
It is an absolute pleasure every time I see new activity on this thread. If you guys have any questions about specific things and would prefer to ask privately, or want to PM me a decklist to look at, you are always welcome. Hope to hear some more progress from all of you soon. Cheers!
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Another suggestion would be sweepers on creatures that are not tap effects like on magus of the disk but can be used the moment they enter the battlefield like sunblast angel or myojin of cleansing fire. They are especially good with chord of calling and the latter is amazing board position all by himself (I wonder why he doesn't see play more often in EDH)
I hope this is usefull.
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
IceBear -- Thanks much for your detailed response and the warm welcome. Some follow up thoughts; I'm not really sure what you'd want to take out, as I don't have all your cards and don't know how some of them perform, but I would suggest that you find something to swap and try these two out, just to see for yourself how they work. I'd love to hear your perspective after testing.
Novablast Wurm: perhaps he's worked out for me since I don't have an Avenger, lol. I am trying to get a Magus of the Disk, and I don't think I would really replace the Wurm with it, since they serve different functions. The Wurm is a blunt instrument, removal + pressure, and is a good way to just force through a stalemate. Magus seems to me to be much more a defensive option; something that sits around and tempers any attempts to go all in against you. Plus, as you say, it's still nice to have a way to nuke pesky enchantments and artifcats in one fell swoop. Especially since our mana base is more ramp than rock.
Spike weaver: as I said, you really need to test him. He's awesome. I don't think there's any other creature you can tutor for or recur that will save you the way he can on the turn you need saving.
I don't have either Sword. How key have those been for you? Is it just that they are good and that you have them, so you play them, or do you find them very important to the deck?
Sounds like Sun Titan definitely falls into that must-get category, as does Loam, neither of which I have yet. I think those will be my first two purchases.
Spore frog. pretty much just good with your general.
Circle of Despair It's another sac outlet and it doesn't target so it can stop Uril
Currently playing:
UW Modern Tron WU
UR Modern Storm RU
UW [CARD]Rasputin Dreamweaver
[/CARD] UW
whoops sry, I should read more carefully.
Anyway, another card I missed in those lists is stoneforge mystic. Is there any reason not to? I would play him just to get skullclamp more often. Also what do you think about nim deathmantle?
GWKarametra - The MistveiledGW
GWR Marath - The Egg-laying Wool-Milk-Pig GWR
RBGrenzo - Restrained RakdosRB
UWRGBHorde of NotionsUWRGB
Retired: Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Rafiq of the Many | Animar, Soul of Elements | Maelstrom Wanderer
While searching through Gatherer, I found Exclusion Ritual. Just like Vindicate but it exiles and it's cheap (monetary wise). The second ability is gravy. Gets silly with Flicker effects.
Spore Frog is nice but shouldn't be considered over Spike Weaver. Spike Weaver fogs 3 times per reanimation compared to Spore Frog's 1. If you want a second fog effect, then sure, go ahead. Otherwise, stick with Spike Weaver.
I didn't think enough about Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter and would like to second the recommendation for him. I've been playing with Phantom Nishoba and really like him for the life gain. Having a second source of life gain would be awesome, especially off the back of a Tooth and Nail when I feel my death is coming soon. I've also been having trouble with flying creatures (angels, dragons, and crap) so this guy is really good.
Every game I've played, I've seen other players dig into their graveyard (even a UR Nin deck). I'd really suggest you do anything to find a spot for Stone Cloaker. This card got me really scared when I saw how it was being used (the only thing that stopped it was a Wheel of Fortune. It has flash and can instantly remove a single card in any graveyard for 2W in case something gets targeted. It can also continually do this over and over again if you have the manadue to it's ETB ability. It has to return a creature to its owners hand when it comes into play; why not itself?
I'd only dedicate one slot in your deck (if you intend to dedicate one at all) to protection from Bojuka Bog and exile effects. Up to you: True Believer, Riftsweeper, or Pull from Eternity. Each has pros/cons and I can't decide for myself as I don't run any of them.
I'd also recommend you replacing Bojuka Bog in your list with something else that produces B. I've seen Vesuva played in many games and you're just asking to be screwed over when someone plays Vesuva, copies your Bog, and exiles your graveyard. Of course, you can keep it in if you decide to run True Believer.
For your questions/statements, I forgot about Phyrexian Revoker. If you were to include an effect like Pithing Needle, you'd want the Phyrexian Revoker instead.
Also, True Believer doesn't stop Relic of Progenitus as the Relic doesn't target. It actually removes ALL graveyards from the game rather than "targeted player's" graveyard. Another point for Phyrexian Revoker.
I mentioned my opinion on the swords above but I'll expand it here. Has Sword of Fire and Ice really done a lot for you when you've drawn it? Have you had creatures on the board that you could attach the sword to? Did the sword survive long enough that you could attack with it? Where you able to trigger its effect multiple times in a game (if not at least once)? I think the sword's effect isn't big enough for what you have to go about doing in order to get it to trigger. Protection from two colors isn't as good as the indestructibility of Darksteel Plate and doing 2 damage and drawing a card is nice only when it can be done easily and often. This card is what I think should be taken out for Graveborn Muse. Screw the protection, she does 3 damage and let's you draw a card every turn (even if blocked). She's also easier to get back from your graveyard compared to the sword.
If you're really obsessed with not having your Genesis Wave countered (and all that mana and therefore your turn lost), you can try running Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Hurts like hell, though. Or even better, run Living Wish which brings a lot more utility (and lets you choose between Grand Abolisher or Boseiju or any other creature/land). The problem with wishes though is you need to know exactly what you're looking for and where to find it in your collection, otherwise you end up wasting everyone's time.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I'll cast a vote for Spike Weaver, too. Foggy Spike (and Survival of the Fittest) was the first thing I thought of when I decided to build Karador. I love that guy.
It seems like you have only one sac outlet (unless I overlooked something) - High Market. It seems to me that this deck would like a few more since it wants to play out of the graveyard. You have a bunch of critters that can sac themselves (either through "sac me" abilities or echo), but I'm curious if a couple more sacrifice for fun and profit cards could find a place here. Thoughts?
Planar Cleansing: Non-cycling Akroma's Vengeance with practically the same mana cost (3WWW instead of 4WW) and also hits planeswalkers. Much better than Magus of the Disk since it goes off right away rather than waiting until your next turn.
Desert Twister: Never saw you reply about this card. Mono-G version of Vindicate that's cheaper on your wallet but more expensive on your mana base.
Mangara of Corondor: Although it's a creature which exiles itself rather than sacrifices and it can't use it's ability the turn it comes into play, it offers a Vindicate-like effect which gets around indestructibility by exiling the target. Might also give you a reason to replace Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mortify or Putrefy if you want to play more creatures.
Karmic Justice: Gives a repeatable-Vindicate whenever an opponent destroys one of your lands, artifacts, enchantments or planeswalkers. At the very least, something will likely come along and destroy Karmic Justice and you'll get one Vindicate effect. It's good by itself and good when you have a bunch of artifacts/enchantments on the board. If some noob plays Armageddon, you can destroy his win conditions. Also, can replace Beast Within which I don't think is all that great of a card (EDIT for multiplayer).
Viridian Zealot: Plays into your silly sub-theme of sacrificing all your creatures but whatever. Gets rid of an artifact/enchantment and can then be recurred as needed. He costs a buck or two though.
Capashen Unicorn: IT'S A FRACKIN' UNICORN! But it's also cheap. Does the same thing as Viridian Zealot but you have to wait a turn. This guy and Viridian Zealot play nicely with Sun Titan and Reveillark.
Sylvoc Replica: I don't know why I didnt' mention this guy earlier; he's been in my deck since before you even started this thread. Costs 3 to cast and G to blow up. Has a recursion combo with Glissa, The Traitor (who I hear is good at blocking).
Devout Witness: I play online so this guy isn't available to me. He can be Fauna Shaman #2 but instead of tutoring a creature he Naturalizes/Disenchants something (why play and sacrifice a creature when you can put them directly into your graveyard).
Rith, Rhys, Ghave, Karador, Oona, Wrexial, Uril, Animar, Damia, Mimeoplasm
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I've been playing The Mimeoplasm as my general since Commander came out, and was going to make the deck a simple 1v1, and make a Ghave deck for multiplayer ("Saproling Suicide"). However, I came to the conclusion that the deck needed to be competitive, as my meta has some competitive players. We have a Wort and Ezuri deck to name just a few.
Stumbling upon yours, I ordered the cards I could to make the deck, however I had to make some minor changes in the mana base (I couldn't get some of the non-basic lands) and other cards. Since creating the deck earlier last wek, the deck went 3-1 at our EDH tournament, losing only to a Lady of Scrolls deck. However, it has a 100% win rate against my friend's Wort deck - something no one has since he's been working on it for years. The deck has had multiple chances to be killed in single player and multiplayer EDH games, and has had only one loss to the 1v1 Lady of Scrolls deck.
Overall, I find the consistency of this deck shocking and quite frightening. There have been a lot of moments where I thought I would be killed when I was ganged up on, only to top deck into something that gives me the few turns I need to turn the game around. I'm very impressed with this deck's multiplayer capability, and amazed that that same capability transfers to singleplayer as well.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Second, it makes me especially proud to see this deck succeed for others as it has for me. I'm glad you looked to my list and that it helped you succeed against other finely tuned decks. I can say from experience that Azami is a tough nut to crack, but going 3-1 is nothing to sneeze at, so congrats!
If I might ask, what changes did you make to the non-land cards? I'm always looking for things that are successful, and any options would be much appreciated. I'm glad you love the deck, and I hope it continues to be successful for you; mostly, I'm just glad I could help in some way.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Pernicious Deed > Plague Wind
Life From The Loam > Syphon Flesh
Sword of Light and Shadow > Sword of Feast and Famine
Fierce Empath > Brutalizer Exarch
Karmic Guide > Artidan of Kozilek
Survival of the Fittest > Fauna Shaman
Sword of Fire and Ice > Sword of War and Peace
Sylvan Library > Primeval Titan
Skyshroud Claim > Solemn Simulacrum
Fetid Heath > Swamp
Godless Shrine > Plains
High Market > Mystifying Maze
Horizon Canopy > Stirring Wildwood
Overgrown Tomb > Forest
Tainted Field > Plains
Temple Garden > Razorverge Thicket
Windswpet Heath > Sunpetal Grove
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
BGGlissaGB
BROliviaRB
Also while it doesn't have To be a main focus of the deck, combo outs are always nice, especially with all your tutors. Yosei has been Mentioned and is great with karador and of course there is lark/karmic guide which i assume is in (on my iphone, not gonna go check the front page) but in these colours i'd shoehorn melira, sylvok outcast in. woodfall primus should already be in here and imo so should kitchen finks, so It shouldn't shake the list up too much. Also sometimes a deck just needs big dumb beaters like spiritmonger and phantom nishoba (which is larkable btw, not many think of this). Also I have to agree with everyone saying jens is a must-include, and from my experience birthing pod is worth including. I'll suggest cuts for this stuff later when not on my phone, and maybe post my list.
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
With Birthing Pod you can go from:
Viridian Emissary 1G (+1 land)
to
Yavimaya Elder 1GG (+2 lands)
to
Solemn Simulacrum 4 (+1 land, +1 card)
to
Acidic Slime 3GG (-1 artifact/enchantment/land for opponent)
to
Primeval Titan 4GG (+2 lands)
then cast
Karador, Ghost Chieftain 5WBG,
recast a creature in your graveyard and start all over.
If you are keeping with the survival of the fittest game plan, my suggestion is to find space for disentomb and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (or maybe Ulamog). With either survival, fauna shaman, disentomb, or some way of discarding the titan from your hand (greater good works well in this case), you can have ultimate graveyard protection, able to respond to anything from a Relic to Tormod's Crypt by pitching the titan to the yard, and shuffling it all back into your library.
Icebear, glad to see you're interested in trying Spike Weaver and Novablast Wurm. The only other suggestions I would make based on the cards I have tested is Vish Kal. The more I play him, the more I like him. I feel like every EDH deck needs one creature that can be over the top, and he does that while also being a high end sac outlet and removal option all in one. The lifelink comes in handy too. I rarely go looking for him, but I'm always surprisingly happy to see him.
I don't have a Garruk, but I did just get a Primeval Titan. If you had one, would you put him in Garruk's spot, or should I be looking for a Garruk as well?
How's True Believer working for you? I haven't had a chance to test him yet, but he's on my short list. In theory, I worry that he won't be around when you need him, but in practice he may be more consistent than I fear.
In regards to Stonecloaker, I'm debating between him and Withered Wretch for the anti-gy creature. Does anyone have any thoughts on the two? Wretch is clearly cheaper to activate and can sweep multiple cards much faster, but he's harder to protect. I'm thinking that since we have Bog for large scale gy removal, it may be better to go for Stonecloaker as a pinpoint option, but I'm still undecided.
If you could only get one for now, which would you get: Reflecting Pool or Vesuva?