MTG Salvation

Quote from Macius

and did you cut sudden spoiling for DB liege?

I think that's when I took it out. I'm not sure, I make little tweaks and tests all the time, and I don't update the list on here nearly so often.

Liege has been in there and taken out a few times. I'm still kinda iffy on him at times, but most often he has to be dealt with or he will wreck someone.

Doomed Necromancer is a pet favorite. I can see it working withRevillark and a sac outlet.

Quote from Macius

Doomed Necromancer is a pet favorite. I can see it working withRevillark and a sac outlet.

I've never tried him as I don't own a copy, but I have thought about it. He does synergize well with most of the deck.

Hey Blackjack,

Have you thought of any synergies for Vish Kal as a general? I've been trying to come up with a list, but everything I think of is either too cute or just falls in line with the traditional infinite sacrifice combos. My current list is built around heavy removal and hand disruption, backed by reanimation and body producers (ie. Mimic Vat, Luminarch Ascension, Bloodghast) and game ends with Armageddon effects. The point is to keep cleaning out the board and steal them with my spells, then clear the other generals off the table, while beating down, with Vish Kal. Idea sounds fine on paper, but I'm looking for some help to put make the deck more synergistic and unique. Any ideas?

(btw I checked out High Flight Society's list - it's cool, but I'm not a big fan of the knight package. Let's just say I'm looking for something like that, but a bit more powerful)

Quote from MCR

Hey Blackjack,

Have you thought of any synergies for Vish Kal as a general? I've been trying to come up with a list, but everything I think of is either too cute or just falls in line with the traditional infinite sacrifice combos. My current list is built around heavy removal and hand disruption, backed by reanimation and body producers (ie. Mimic Vat, Luminarch Ascension, Bloodghast) and game ends with Armageddon effects. The point is to keep cleaning out the board and steal them with my spells, then clear the other generals off the table, while beating down, with Vish Kal. Idea sounds fine on paper, but I'm looking for some help to put make the deck more synergistic and unique. Any ideas?

(btw I checked out High Flight Society's list - it's cool, but I'm not a big fan of the knight package. Let's just say I'm looking for something like that, but a bit more powerful)

Honestly, you've probably thought of everything I have so far. I haven't been able to play him as much as I want yet. I think your idea/direction is potentially really solid. I like it.

Obviously, he's a killer with Lark/Guide combo and synergizes especially well with grave pact/butcher.

I was thinking maybe Tombstone Stairwell might have some merit, but I haven't tried it out.

I'm definitely interested in how this deck pans out for you, I'd very likely put one together myself.

Just out of curiosity, since you said this deck could use a Scrubland etc., what would your "ideal" deck look like?

Quote from Mimir

Just out of curiosity, since you said this deck could use a Scrubland etc., what would your "ideal" deck look like?

Ideally, I'd be running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed and then Corpse Dance to replace one of the other recursion spells as it works really well with him.

Probably Sensei's Divining Top for Crystal Ball, though I really like the ball for getting cards I don't need out of the way.

And the only other thing I'd add is land:
Maze of Ith
Scrubland
and probably one or two more off color fetches:
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire

To be honest, I wouldn't change much, I'm pretty happy with how it works now. Maze and Xiahou are the only things that would be noticeable upgrades as the manabase works pretty well even without the expensive stuff.

I'm really hoping for another creature or two to be printed along the lines of Angel of Despair, or Yosei. Decent beaters with a good etb or ltb ability. It might not ever happen, but it doesn't hurt to wish.

Is there a reason you don't include Solemn Simulacrum in your list? It gives you advatage when it enters and when it dies and can even be brought back with reveillark.

Quote from MrUnknown

Is there a reason you don't include Solemn Simulacrum in your list? It gives you advatage when it enters and when it dies and can even be brought back with reveillark.

Funny..... I made an order just this morning from tcgplayer and it's got 2 Simulacrums in it. I'm going to try it in the only slot I feel comfortable with, for Crystal Ball, though I really like the ball for mid-late game filtering with leftover mana.

Great deck list, as always. And I wanted to take a moment to thank you for all your help on my deck list for the same type of deck I know i'll be back looking at it to help update my deck as well I'll be keeping a close eye on this post Again, amazing job on the flavor and the deck itself

HAve you considered Mangara of Corondor? As long as you have a sac outlet/recursion engine set up, he seems really good.

@ TheDivinePanda - Thanks a lot, I really appreciate that.

Quote from Whiplord

HAve you considered Mangara of Corondor? As long as you have a sac outlet/recursion engine set up, he seems really good.

There's rarely a time when I don't have a sac outlet in play, and recursion happens enough, even if I don't have an engine in place at the time.

I had considered her at one point, and was going to test her, and then EDH ADD kicked in and I never got around to it. It seems like she would be pretty good, I'm not sure what I'd take out though.

The biggest drawback I see is that she doesn't have haste and I don't have much that grants it. When I want removal, I usually want it "right now".

Continuing thinking out loud....

On the plus side (assuming a sac outlet is in place):
You can play her out early as a rattlesnake.
She's recurrable with both Sun Titan and Lark
On Mimic Vat, she'd be brutal.
She's another trigger for grave pact and Butcher

It's too bad she can't be activated and then sacced while wearing Skullclamp. Well, she could if:
Deathbringer was in play
Pump her with Elspeth first
Wearing Deathmantle

So, the question is... what to take out for her?
On the creature side, probably wall of reverence
on the removal side, either Damnation or Rend Flesh.

Probably Damnation. That leaves me 2 sweepers which I don't like to use much anyway, I'm partial to spot removal.

Yeah, I think she's probably a winner. I'll look for a trade at my LGS and give her a tryout this time.

Thanks for reminding me about her.

Hello Blackjack68 and the rest of the contributors to this deck and thread.
I've been following this thread for a while as the deck looks both fun and competitive, and I finally built it this week.:D

I've got a few questions though:

1) I love Grave Pact (and similar effects from Sheoldred, Whispering One and Butcher of Malakir), but don't they put a giant bullseye on your head in multiplayer? How do you avoid getting ganged up on at the table? Or are those effects just so strong that you can handle it?

2) What's your main strategy as far as using the general? Is Ghost Council of Orzhova's main function in the deck just as a sac outlet, with occasional blocking and attacking responsibilities?

3) I was surprised not to see Mind's Eye in there. It seems so strong... Am I missing something?

Quote from Sockosensei

Hello Blackjack68 and the rest of the contributors to this deck and thread.
I've been following this thread for a while as the deck looks both fun and competitive, and I finally built it this week.:D

Glad you like it, and welcome to the Orzhov family!

I've got a few questions though:

1) I love Grave Pact (and similar effects from Sheoldred, Whispering One and Butcher of Malakir), but don't they put a giant bullseye on your head in multiplayer? How do you avoid getting ganged up on at the table? Or are those effects just so strong that you can handle it?

I hardly ever have a table "gang up" on me unless I've got such a crazy good board state that they all know they have to or die. The cards you mentioned generally have the bullseye on "them", not "you". All those cards get killed a lot, but that's why we have so much recursion. At least at my LGS, overtly "ganging up" on someone who isn't immediately threatening to blow out the game or playing griefer cards is generally considered bad form.

2) What's your main strategy as far as using the general? Is Ghost Council of Orzhova's main function in the deck just as a sac outlet, with occasional blocking and attacking responsibilities?

Pretty much, yes. For me, GCO is mostly just a reliable sac outlet for triggering ltb abilities (like Archon of Justice, Reveillark, and Academy Rector), and triggering grave pact effects. He's not a great blocker, but sometimes it comes in handy when there's a bloodghast to sac off after blocks are declared. And since he doesn't have any evasion, he's not a great attacker either, but I'm genuinely surprised how many players I've finished off by swinging in with him after a board wipe where he saved himself with his ability. Shizo, Death's Storehouse helps him push damage through sometimes, and so does Elspeth. I've had plenty of games where he never even saw the battlefield though.

3) I was surprised not to see Mind's Eye in there. It seems so strong... Am I missing something?

To be honest, I've never been that crazy about the card (just personal prefs), but it's very good and would probably make a fine addition. I end up playing a lot of 1v1 duels with other players using our multiplayer decks, and Mind's Eye loses some of it's attractiveness in that setting. I'd say run it. There are a lot of cards that could be very good in the deck, and just never found their way in or got replaced over time by something a little newer and shinier.

Hope that helps some, I'm confident you'll enjoy the deck, it's a lot of fun, and there are so many tweaks and different directions to take it that it stays fresh (at least for me anyway). Don't be shy about trying new angles with it, just be sure to come back here and report about any good stuff you find

Cheers

Sup fellow GCO heads!
I've been rerunning this list after a looong vacation from it;



I like using reanimation spells that bring back creatures en masse rather than mostly anything else. Card advantaggeee

I would love to add more engines into the deck, it runs nice, but I seemingly run out of cards to play and end up folding to their threats.
The engines I run already:

Corpse Dance+ GCO= 6 mana recur anything for a turn. This works nice as it's instant speed, makes for great declare blockers steps

Demonic Collusion+ Buyback= Fill GY with reanimation targets, then tutor for these cards to win: Buried Alive, then Identity Crisis, and then Living Death. Its become one of my main win strategies in here

Deathbringer Liege= casting GCO becomes an autokill, makes a voltron win stupid viable

List of things I plan on adding:

• Dawn of the Dead
  
• Debtor's Knell
  
• Promise of Power
  
• Return to Dust

More Mana Acceleration+ CA spells

List of things on the Chopping Block:

• Diabolic Servitude
  
• Chancellor of the Dross
  
• Avatar of Woe
  
• Necrotic Sliver

Other Superfluous Reanimation Targets and one of the Transmute Spells

Other Cards I've used and loved but are not using currently:

• Sengir Autocrat
  
• Evangelize

Other Notes:
Vengeful Archon is badass
Demonic Collusion is crazy broken
I have to make sure that i can win without the living death combo haha i use it so much

The Mimeoplasm is currently the card I hate the most

so what's good people?

Windex - Hello back.

Funny, I was just thinking about Corpse dance this morning. I had been waiting to get my hands on a Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed before putting it in, but honestly, I don't know why I was waiting. It's a great spell if you have plenty of sac outlets, and I do. I think I'll go swap it in for Dread Return when I get done here.

Yeah when I've played it it gives nothing but sick plays out of nowhere.
I've played monoblack Dun on Cockatrice for awhile, and that is suuuch a sick deck. Profane Command recur insanity. If you have the 170 to blow on him i would do it.
So how have you fared against Kaalia of the Vast and Mimeoplasm builds?

@Blackjack68
Thanks for the detailed reply.
Yeah, Orzhov's been my favorite since, well, since Guildpact;)

I took your build that you had posted until a few days ago and swapped a few cards:

-Praetor's Grasp (Seems like an excellent card, except for the mana restrictions in EDH. Good for snatching artifacts though. We'll see if it goes back in.
-Wall of Reverence
-Rend Flesh
-Hex Parasite


+Mind's Eye
+Solemn Simulacrum -- good card, and a close friend of the Vat
+Mangara or Corondor
+Vampiric Tutor


Hope to get a chance to test against some live opponents soon.


@Windex
My brain's too tired to really process your full list right now, but at a glance I like some of the ideas you've got there. Will take a closer look tomorrow.

thanks that means sooo much dude. get some sleep brother

@ Sockosensei - I like the card choices, I've got a Simulacrum on order already.

Yeah, I cut Hex Parasite already, I had put him in for a while as I was seeing a particularly annoying Lux Cannon combo at my shop.

One note about Praetor's Grasp, so far, I've never failed to find a worthwhile card to rip with it. Sol Rings and Tops are great, but don't forget that even with color restrictions, it can rip combo pieces and graveyard hate. Even if you don't ever get to cast the card, it removes it from ever being a problem. I don't think it's an auto-include or anything, but it's awfully good.

@ Windex - I haven't faced a Mimeo deck yet, I can see where that could cause problems. I have played a couple Kaalia builds and didn't have any problems at all, but I'm heavy in instant spot removal. I've taken Kaalia in a different direction than those I've seen so far (decklist in sig).

Ok, updated (with a couple proxies 'til I can get cardboard):

1) Solemn Simulacrum in, Crystal Ball out - Obvious upgrade, gets me very re-useable ramp and draw, plus sac fodder.

2) Mangara of Corondor in, Innocent Blood out - Gives me very re-useable super vindicate and pact trigger (assuming a sac outlet) over a sweeper. At the loss of non-targeted removal that gets around shroud. Good trade.

Dimir House Guard is becoming less and less effective. His only transmute targets are Damnation and Elspeth, and since he's usually a tutor, he's usually not a sac outlet. So

3) Vampiric Tutor in, Dimir House Guard out - Worlds better tutoring, but I lose a sac outlet (albeit a weak one).

Now I've lost a sac outlet (though not a reliable one), and I need to make sure I always have one since Mangara and Corpse Dance are in the deck now, so ..

4) Culling Dais in, Syphon Mind out - This makes me cringe a little, but between Dais and Simulacrum now being in the deck, I think draw has had a net gain, with a good, cheap, Titan Recurrable sac outlet as a bonus.

If anyone thinks they've got a better option than that last one, let me know. I considered spawning pit for it's rapid fire ability and potential for abuse with Lark/Guide, but I think the card draw is more important.

So all in all:

Advanced Deck Analysis (yes, I have too much time)....

-------------------------------------------------------------


So, by looking over these levels, and at the EDH Mathematics Thread, I'd say I've got:

Plenty of or an overabundance of, and it wouldn't hurt to cut a bit:
Creature Kill
Land Kill - maybe


I'd like to have more of:
Sac Outlets - I wouldn't mind one more if it does something else useful
Graveyard Hate
Sac Fodder

@Windex

I just looked at your build more closely.
Nice find on Artisan of Kozilek -- I'd never noticed that it doesn't get shuffled back into your library!:D

You aren't running Grave Pact though? It seems like you've got the skeleton set up to abuse it mercilessly, and it'd give you a plan B if the Living Death combo doesn't work out.

Chancellor of the Dross seems a bit underwhelming if it's not in your opening hand. How about Sheoldred, Whispering One or Geth, Lord of the Vault in that slot?



@Blackjack68

Good points on Praetor's Grasp. I'll re-examine it.

Advanced Deck Analysis...just wow! (What I'd do for that much free time;) )
Will need to get out my notebook and pencil to take it all in.

I can't cut Dimir Houseguard yet. A free sac outlet that could also tutor for Grave Pact or a board sweeper, or even be an evasive attacker or regenerating blocker. He's just that versatile.
Let me know if you miss him later.

...Which got me thinking about transmute (Brainspoil). Lark, Guide, Beacon, Divinity, Deathbringer, Mind's Eye (in my build), Promise of Power, Archon are all excellent targets. Have you tried it?

thanks man i'll look into pact and things to replace the vampire haha

Brain spoil actually seems pretty good as it does fetch either piece of the guide/lark combo and it can even kill most creatures. Seems really versitile. and it could fetch rout if anyone plays that as a sweeper