Kyusurugi - You make a good argument for keeping the Lark combo intact. I'll probably leave it for now. About Deathmantle & Vat.... I've had amazing results at times with them. True enough, sometimes you don't have the mana when you need it for Deathmantle, but on those long late games when mana isn't an issue, it's pretty good insurance/combo. I've had the Vat win too many games for me to ever take out.
Vat plus:
Angel of Despair
Karmic Guide
Yosei + Sac Outlet
Archon of Justice + Sac Outlet
Fleshbag Marauder
Butcher + Sac Outlet
Sun Titan
Wurmcoil Engine + Sac Outlet
Divinity of Pride (8/8 flying, lifelinked, suicidal charger)
All just nuts on the vat. The biggest drawback I've had was getting the vat destroyed with something imprinted on it that I wanted to reanimate later that's exiled forever.
Melo4mvp - I just remembered something. Since you're going in a mass land destruction direction with the deck, you might want to consider Desolation Angel. I haven't used it, but it seems pretty good here. Just be careful to never reanimate it or put it on Mimic Vat or anything, lol.
Kyusurugi - You make a good argument for keeping the Lark combo intact. I'll probably leave it for now. About Deathmantle & Vat.... I've had amazing results at times with them. True enough, sometimes you don't have the mana when you need it for Deathmantle, but on those long late games when mana isn't an issue, it's pretty good insurance/combo. I've had the Vat win too many games for me to ever take out.
Vat plus:
Angel of Despair
Karmic Guide
Yosei + Sac Outlet
Archon of Justice + Sac Outlet
Fleshbag Marauder
Butcher + Sac Outlet
Sun Titan
Wurmcoil Engine + Sac Outlet
Divinity of Pride (8/8 flying, lifelinked, suicidal charger)
All just nuts on the vat. The biggest drawback I've had was getting the vat destroyed with something imprinted on it that I wanted to reanimate later that's exiled forever.
Melo4mvp - I just remembered something. Since you're going in a mass land destruction direction with the deck, you might want to consider Desolation Angel. I haven't used it, but it seems pretty good here. Just be careful to never reanimate it or put it on Mimic Vat or anything, lol.
I think I'm gonna keep the combo out and try some different stuff and I'll let you guys know how it goes. I do like the thought of having it in there to win games I have no business of winning but I've had many games drawing the dead artifact pieces doing next to nothing.
I've been thinking about desolation angel since it's one of my favorite cards. I'm a little worried about mindslaver but I'll probably give this a try as well.
I've also had some pretty good experiences with the deathmantle as well. It does usually get blown up quickly though.
Another thing I've been thinking is to try to find more things to abuse with sun titan but I'm not sure what else we could recur.
Also are either of you still running world queller? I've cut him from my list recently because he never seems to do a lot and having to wait a full turn for him to do anything is a bummer.
I hope to start tournaments and a league at my lgs and I will be able to test the deck more. Currently I only really get to play with a few people on friday who have decided edh is more fun then fnm lol.
Blackjack68
Yes, I do see the worth of Nim deathmantle and Mimic vat. Unfortunately, I just haven't had any luck at doing anything awe-inspiring or game changing with them. The best I've had was Yosei, The Morning Star imprinted and had a lock down for 2 turns only to have mimic vat destroyed(by a different player) and having Yosei lost forever and losing the game so maybe its just bad luck on my part.
Although for the whole mimic vat exile issue, I have thought of a contingency plan for the whole losing the imprinted creature. For the future I plan to have GCO out on the field simultaneously with mimic vat next time around, and just as mimic vat is targeted, Sac GCO with his own ability in response, and exile him with the imprint ability to save the previous creature and GCO just returns to the command zone and you can salvage the mimic vat and the recur the other creature. That would seem like the best back up plan to save any important imprinted creature.
Melo4mvp
I still am running world queller when I feel like I'll be going against a lot of artifacts or enchantments or just planeswalkers just because he's just kinda awesome to have if you know how to use him as a deterrent to scare your opponents in thinking twice before they try to do something silly, I particularly like using him to sac whatever I don't have that my opponents do, (generally planeswalkers) or silly enchantments and artifacts, but if you ever need a sac outlet, he's good for that too, In addition if you've read his rulings ("You don't choose a card type until the ability resolves. Once you choose a type, it's too late for players to respond :D") which is a good way to use the rules to your advantage. He also is pretty fun if you have crucible of worlds since I get the feeling you're interested in LD, you can save yourself while hurting others.
Also! "Tribal enchantments" is a "card type" which is kind of fun (especially against eldrazi tribal enchantments), just be very careful not to shoot yourself in the foot since this deck does have a fairy tribal enchantment. Overall I say he's like a double edged sword, and you're just always trying to avoid the other end of the blade when you're swinging.
Blackjack68
Yes, I do see the worth of Nim deathmantle and Mimic vat. Unfortunately, I just haven't had any luck at doing anything awe-inspiring or game changing with them. The best I've had was Yosei, The Morning Star imprinted and had a lock down for 2 turns only to have mimic vat destroyed(by a different player) and having Yosei lost forever and losing the game so maybe its just bad luck on my part.
Although for the whole mimic vat exile issue, I have thought of a contingency plan for the whole losing the imprinted creature. For the future I plan to have GCO out on the field simultaneously with mimic vat next time around, and just as mimic vat is targeted, Sac GCO with his own ability in response, and exile him with the imprint ability to save the previous creature and GCO just returns to the command zone and you can salvage the mimic vat and the recur the other creature. That would seem like the best back up plan to save any important imprinted creature.
Melo4mvp
I still am running world queller when I feel like I'll be going against a lot of artifacts or enchantments or just planeswalkers just because he's just kinda awesome to have if you know how to use him as a deterrent to scare your opponents in thinking twice before they try to do something silly, I particularly like using him to sac whatever I don't have that my opponents do, (generally planeswalkers) or silly enchantments and artifacts, but if you ever need a sac outlet, he's good for that too, In addition if you've read his rulings ("You don't choose a card type until the ability resolves. Once you choose a type, it's too late for players to respond :D") which is a good way to use the rules to your advantage. He also is pretty fun if you have crucible of worlds since I get the feeling you're interested in LD, you can save yourself while hurting others.
Also! "Tribal enchantments" is a "card type" which is kind of fun (especially against eldrazi tribal enchantments), just be very careful not to shoot yourself in the foot since this deck does have a fairy tribal enchantment. Overall I say he's like a double edged sword, and you're just always trying to avoid the other end of the blade when you're swinging.
Oh yea theres plenty of targets for titan I guess I was just hoping for something like necrotic sliver or fleshbag marauder that I might have been missing. Guess I'm just been a little greedy lol.
Self-saccing GCO!!! Why didn't I think of that! I have killed off an opponents creature in response and imprinted it, but I never made the connection with GCO's ability. Very Nice. I can't wait to use that one
I think the coolest play I ever had with it was getting a destroyed Vat back to play with a swinging Sun Titan token that I had just made in response to the destroy spell.
EDIT:
Oh, crap.... are you sure the GCO trick will work? Mimic Vat says:
Imprint - Whenever a nontoken creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may exile that card. If you do, return each other card exiled with Mimic Vat to its owner's graveyard.
So does the exiled card have to make it to the exile zone? Because putting him in the command zone is a replacement effect.
Hmm that's a very good point, I'm pretty sure the trick still works, I haven't had anyone say anything against it when I've done it. I think I'll ask one of my friends who is a judge later on. But I've never seen someone exile their own general and have it stayed exiled, is it possible to even have an exiled general?
My understanding is that it is possible to exile the commander, the same as it is to let them go to the graveyard. You choose to put them in the command zone as a replacement effect so they never actually hit the gy or exile, thus not triggering anything that looks for that (like Grave Pact).
Thinking about it....
Vat says "Exile that card" and "if you do", but nothing about the card actually hitting the zone. If the wording was "sacrifice" instead of "exile", it would work whether the creature ever hit the yard or not, so I'm thinking we're good with it, but I'd like some confirmation.
I just looked for the "variant format" section of the Rulings forum, but it's gone. I wonder if we're just supposed to ask in the regular rulings section.
The rule is 117.12
Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
This makes me feel a little safer putting Yosei on the vat for a soft lock.
Yeah, I think this deck and I have synchronized a little too well! As my other EDH decks seem to be getting a little dusty and lonely... but as you can clearly see, there are somethings in this deck that is more than what meets the eye! (*transformers theme song*)
I'm very happy I could help you Blackjack68 and everyone else who's been reading, by contributing a fail-safe device to the mimic vat dilemma. As for other concerns, please bring them up as there are some situations where I have yet to have experience with and would like to see what some theory-crafting can do.
I've been following this thread with much interest, since I'm in the process of building my own GCO deck as we speak (starting with Blackjack's decklist in post 1). On the subject of card draw, even after putting in Graveborn Muse I feel that more would be good.
After considering the options, I came up with Wall of Omens. Yeah, as a creature it's merely a speedbump, but it can be recurred by both Lark and the Titan, and heck, if you run Ashnod's Altar it's essentially a free card (1W -> draw a card -> sac to the Altar for 2).
I am not sure what I would pull for WoO, perhaps Blasting Station (Graveborn Muse replaced Bitterblossom since I don't have one of those).
Thoughts?
Thanks for all the good discussion here, it's been inspiring!
I've been following this thread with much interest, since I'm in the process of building my own GCO deck as we speak (starting with Blackjack's decklist in post 1). On the subject of card draw, even after putting in Graveborn Muse I feel that more would be good.
After considering the options, I came up with Wall of Omens. Yeah, as a creature it's merely a speedbump, but it can be recurred by both Lark and the Titan, and heck, if you run Ashnod's Altar it's essentially a free card (1W -> draw a card -> sac to the Altar for 2).
I am not sure what I would pull for WoO, perhaps Blasting Station (Graveborn Muse replaced Bitterblossom since I don't have one of those).
Hello, CharlatanPrime.
I wouldn't argue against more card draw by any means. Now that I think about it, Wall of Omens sounds like a viable inclusion. It comes down early for a little protection, recurs easily, and doesn't make a bad imprint on Mimic Vat at all. Late game it isn't useless as we can always use the extra card and sac fodder for GCO or to trigger Grave Pact/Butcher. Though I'd hate to cut Blasting Station for it since that's the one guaranteed table kill with Lark/Guide.
One quick note about Ashnod's Altar. If you're running it and Nim Deathmantle, there are some great interactions you might want to consider for the build.
Ashnod + Deathmantle + any creature that brings 2 or more tokens with it to the battlefield = Infinite tokens and Infinite Mana: Wurmcoil Engine Should be in the deck anyway. Knight-Captain of Eos I used to run and rate ok. Skeletal Vampire I also used to run and rate ok. Grave Titan Another I used to run with decent results.
Also... Ashnod + Deathmantle + Puppeteer Clique (also not bad in here either)= Steal every creature from all graveyards and infinite mana.
So I'm on a tight schedule today, so no major explanation, but something interesting popped in my mind, Hex Parasite + Twilight Shepherd = never ending recursion much?
Thanks for the comments. I will try to figure out what to remove for Wall of Omens then. Since I haven't yet played the deck, I don't have a feel for what cards are or aren't working for me.
Hey guys, good work on the deck as I have been using it as a parallel to my own build. Though I have gone the panda route there are still alot similiarities to your builds. I wanted to ask your opinion on a truely evil trick that my play group has started to look for answers no matter the color. I just wanted to make sure its legit.
Codemn or find another way to bounce the opponents general into there library and then praetor's grasp it. They can't declare it back to the command zone since the wording on praetor's grasp says you may play it.
I like it and if nothing else praetor's grasp lets you surf thier deck for insight into it or if its a combo take the win condition out. I would like to also ask if any of you have considered phyrexian obliterator. Its a rediculous vat target and its straight up evil
Codemn or find another way to bounce the opponents general into there library and then praetor's grasp it. They can't declare it back to the command zone since the wording on praetor's grasp says you may play it.
I'm afraid that won't work. Here is the wording from the rules:
"If a Commander would be put into a graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.
This is a replacement effect; the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger such abilities.
Commander will move to the library or hand as normal; only transitions to Exile or the Graveyard may be replaced."
So, if you try to exile it with PGrasp, it's owner may choose to put it in the command zone instead. It will never go to the exile zone, and you won't be able to play it (unless of course the owner chooses to let it go to exile).
Got a decent amount of games in today. Didn't get to play any of my new cards very often so I can't really pass judgement on them yet. On the other hand I didn't really miss the combo that much.
Gonna probably give hex parasite a shot in my deck. Has anyone else got to play with nph stuff yet? Looking forward to seeing what you guys think.
Updated with a section for Cool Interactions/Combos/Tricks/Tips. Working on single card explainations and previous build styles.
Melo4mvp:
From NPH so far, I'm really liking Sheoldred. She gives that "every turn" recursion that we use so well with Angel of Despair/Archon/Karmic/etc, plus the removal on a beatstick, what's not to love
Hex Parasite is doing ok. Plenty of targets in my meta and combos well with Twilight Shepherd.
Praetor's Grasp is doing ok as well for grabbing Sol Rings or just gutting threats. I'm not 100% on it yet though. It gets better if you're running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
4wbb
Legendary Creature - Vampire Rare
Flying, lifelink
Sacrifice a creature: put X +1/+1 counters on Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, where X is the sacrificed creature's power.
Remove all +1/+1 counters from Vish Kal: target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
Illus. (Michael C. Hayes) 5/5
.
So, I don't know. I'm going to proxy him up and give him some test runs. He seems made for the deck, but I'm disappointed with the 7 casting cost. I would have been happy at 6, and in love at 5.
My take before testing:
1) Combos with Lark/Guide for a full creature board sweep plus swing at one opponent for fatal. This is pretty sweet.
2) He's an instant sac outlet which is always welcome in this deck.
3) 5/5 (possibly larger) flying lifelinker. Not a beast, but none of our stuff really is. We win mostly through long battles of attrition where a 5/5 flying lifelinker is fine.
4) He potentially plays really well with creatures on Nim Deathmantle and Mimic Vat, getting him counters for spot removal every turn. Bloodghast gives him a little.
5) He pumps from and double triggers Deathbringer Liege if you run him (I still do on occasion).
6) 7 cmc makes me sad.
So I'll take out Felidar Sovereign and give Vish Kal a shot. My group tournaments don't award points for lifegain win anyway. So I guess it's finally time for the cat to go.
Anybody else got thoughts on this guy? New interactions/combos?
I mentioned this is another thread, but vish is sick with horobi, death's wail. Target everything on the field with vish, then sac horobi to vish (or gco) before passing priority, so he can't be used against you.
Hmmm, yeah, since Vish doesn't actually have to have counters on him to remove, he can instantly target every other creature on the field which Horobi then destroys. Sac Horobi, swing with a minimum 10/10 lifelinker on an empty board.
Great deck! How well does it do against graveyard hate?
Thanks.
Graveyard hate can give it some headaches, and I'm always sadface when I see some hit the table, but it's usually just a minor setback. Thankfully most gravehate is a one-shot effect instead of something like Leyline of the Void, though even then the decks got ways to kill it.
Vat plus:
Angel of Despair
Karmic Guide
Yosei + Sac Outlet
Archon of Justice + Sac Outlet
Fleshbag Marauder
Butcher + Sac Outlet
Sun Titan
Wurmcoil Engine + Sac Outlet
Divinity of Pride (8/8 flying, lifelinked, suicidal charger)
All just nuts on the vat. The biggest drawback I've had was getting the vat destroyed with something imprinted on it that I wanted to reanimate later that's exiled forever.
Melo4mvp - I just remembered something. Since you're going in a mass land destruction direction with the deck, you might want to consider Desolation Angel. I haven't used it, but it seems pretty good here. Just be careful to never reanimate it or put it on Mimic Vat or anything, lol.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
I think I'm gonna keep the combo out and try some different stuff and I'll let you guys know how it goes. I do like the thought of having it in there to win games I have no business of winning but I've had many games drawing the dead artifact pieces doing next to nothing.
I've been thinking about desolation angel since it's one of my favorite cards. I'm a little worried about mindslaver but I'll probably give this a try as well.
I've also had some pretty good experiences with the deathmantle as well. It does usually get blown up quickly though.
Another thing I've been thinking is to try to find more things to abuse with sun titan but I'm not sure what else we could recur.
Also are either of you still running world queller? I've cut him from my list recently because he never seems to do a lot and having to wait a full turn for him to do anything is a bummer.
I hope to start tournaments and a league at my lgs and I will be able to test the deck more. Currently I only really get to play with a few people on friday who have decided edh is more fun then fnm lol.
Yes, I do see the worth of Nim deathmantle and Mimic vat. Unfortunately, I just haven't had any luck at doing anything awe-inspiring or game changing with them. The best I've had was Yosei, The Morning Star imprinted and had a lock down for 2 turns only to have mimic vat destroyed(by a different player) and having Yosei lost forever and losing the game so maybe its just bad luck on my part.
Although for the whole mimic vat exile issue, I have thought of a contingency plan for the whole losing the imprinted creature. For the future I plan to have GCO out on the field simultaneously with mimic vat next time around, and just as mimic vat is targeted, Sac GCO with his own ability in response, and exile him with the imprint ability to save the previous creature and GCO just returns to the command zone and you can salvage the mimic vat and the recur the other creature. That would seem like the best back up plan to save any important imprinted creature.
Melo4mvp
I still am running world queller when I feel like I'll be going against a lot of artifacts or enchantments or just planeswalkers just because he's just kinda awesome to have if you know how to use him as a deterrent to scare your opponents in thinking twice before they try to do something silly, I particularly like using him to sac whatever I don't have that my opponents do, (generally planeswalkers) or silly enchantments and artifacts, but if you ever need a sac outlet, he's good for that too, In addition if you've read his rulings ("You don't choose a card type until the ability resolves. Once you choose a type, it's too late for players to respond :D") which is a good way to use the rules to your advantage. He also is pretty fun if you have crucible of worlds since I get the feeling you're interested in LD, you can save yourself while hurting others.
Also! "Tribal enchantments" is a "card type" which is kind of fun (especially against eldrazi tribal enchantments), just be very careful not to shoot yourself in the foot since this deck does have a fairy tribal enchantment. Overall I say he's like a double edged sword, and you're just always trying to avoid the other end of the blade when you're swinging.
As for Sun Titan the cards he can pull back are all lands(if you just mass LD),or if you ever want to Strip mine someone every turn you can , or Bitterblossom, Phyrexian Arena, Altar Of Dementia, Blasting Station, Coalition Relic, Crystal Ball, Darksteel Ingot, Expedition Map, Lightning Greaves, Mimic Vat, Nim Deathmantle, Orzhov Signet, Skullclamp, Sol ring, Fleshbag Marauder, Hex Parasite, or Weathered Wayfarer, pick a card, any card, I'm sure one of those cards will serve you well whenever you trigger Sun titan.
Oh yea theres plenty of targets for titan I guess I was just hoping for something like necrotic sliver or fleshbag marauder that I might have been missing. Guess I'm just been a little greedy lol.
I think the coolest play I ever had with it was getting a destroyed Vat back to play with a swinging Sun Titan token that I had just made in response to the destroy spell.
EDIT:
Oh, crap.... are you sure the GCO trick will work? Mimic Vat says:
Imprint - Whenever a nontoken creature is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, you may exile that card. If you do, return each other card exiled with Mimic Vat to its owner's graveyard.
So does the exiled card have to make it to the exile zone? Because putting him in the command zone is a replacement effect.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Thinking about it....
Vat says "Exile that card" and "if you do", but nothing about the card actually hitting the zone. If the wording was "sacrifice" instead of "exile", it would work whether the creature ever hit the yard or not, so I'm thinking we're good with it, but I'd like some confirmation.
I just looked for the "variant format" section of the Rulings forum, but it's gone. I wonder if we're just supposed to ask in the regular rulings section.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
The Mimic Vat/GCO trick is a legal play. Excellent find Kyusurugi!
The ruling thread here.
The rule is 117.12
Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something]. If [a player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” or “[A player] may [do something]. If [that player] [does or doesn’t], [effect].” The action [do something] is a cost, paid when the spell or ability resolves. The “If [a player] [does or doesn’t]” clause checks whether the player chose to pay an optional cost or started to pay a mandatory cost, regardless of what events actually occurred.
This makes me feel a little safer putting Yosei on the vat for a soft lock.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Yeah, I think this deck and I have synchronized a little too well! As my other EDH decks seem to be getting a little dusty and lonely... but as you can clearly see, there are somethings in this deck that is more than what meets the eye! (*transformers theme song*)
I'm very happy I could help you Blackjack68 and everyone else who's been reading, by contributing a fail-safe device to the mimic vat dilemma. As for other concerns, please bring them up as there are some situations where I have yet to have experience with and would like to see what some theory-crafting can do.
After considering the options, I came up with Wall of Omens. Yeah, as a creature it's merely a speedbump, but it can be recurred by both Lark and the Titan, and heck, if you run Ashnod's Altar it's essentially a free card (1W -> draw a card -> sac to the Altar for 2).
I am not sure what I would pull for WoO, perhaps Blasting Station (Graveborn Muse replaced Bitterblossom since I don't have one of those).
Thoughts?
Thanks for all the good discussion here, it's been inspiring!
Hello, CharlatanPrime.
I wouldn't argue against more card draw by any means. Now that I think about it, Wall of Omens sounds like a viable inclusion. It comes down early for a little protection, recurs easily, and doesn't make a bad imprint on Mimic Vat at all. Late game it isn't useless as we can always use the extra card and sac fodder for GCO or to trigger Grave Pact/Butcher. Though I'd hate to cut Blasting Station for it since that's the one guaranteed table kill with Lark/Guide.
One quick note about Ashnod's Altar. If you're running it and Nim Deathmantle, there are some great interactions you might want to consider for the build.
Ashnod + Deathmantle + any creature that brings 2 or more tokens with it to the battlefield = Infinite tokens and Infinite Mana:
Wurmcoil Engine Should be in the deck anyway.
Knight-Captain of Eos I used to run and rate ok.
Skeletal Vampire I also used to run and rate ok.
Grave Titan Another I used to run with decent results.
Also... Ashnod + Deathmantle + Puppeteer Clique (also not bad in here either)= Steal every creature from all graveyards and infinite mana.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Just a thought...
Codemn or find another way to bounce the opponents general into there library and then praetor's grasp it. They can't declare it back to the command zone since the wording on praetor's grasp says you may play it.
I like it and if nothing else praetor's grasp lets you surf thier deck for insight into it or if its a combo take the win condition out. I would like to also ask if any of you have considered phyrexian obliterator. Its a rediculous vat target and its straight up evil
I'm afraid that won't work. Here is the wording from the rules:
"If a Commander would be put into a graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.
This is a replacement effect; the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger such abilities.
Commander will move to the library or hand as normal; only transitions to Exile or the Graveyard may be replaced."
So, if you try to exile it with PGrasp, it's owner may choose to put it in the command zone instead. It will never go to the exile zone, and you won't be able to play it (unless of course the owner chooses to let it go to exile).
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Gonna probably give hex parasite a shot in my deck. Has anyone else got to play with nph stuff yet? Looking forward to seeing what you guys think.
Melo4mvp:
From NPH so far, I'm really liking Sheoldred. She gives that "every turn" recursion that we use so well with Angel of Despair/Archon/Karmic/etc, plus the removal on a beatstick, what's not to love
Hex Parasite is doing ok. Plenty of targets in my meta and combos well with Twilight Shepherd.
Praetor's Grasp is doing ok as well for grabbing Sol Rings or just gutting threats. I'm not 100% on it yet though. It gets better if you're running Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
4wbb
Legendary Creature - Vampire Rare
Flying, lifelink
Sacrifice a creature: put X +1/+1 counters on Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, where X is the sacrificed creature's power.
Remove all +1/+1 counters from Vish Kal: target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each counter removed this way.
Illus. (Michael C. Hayes) 5/5
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So, I don't know. I'm going to proxy him up and give him some test runs. He seems made for the deck, but I'm disappointed with the 7 casting cost. I would have been happy at 6, and in love at 5.
My take before testing:
1) Combos with Lark/Guide for a full creature board sweep plus swing at one opponent for fatal. This is pretty sweet.
2) He's an instant sac outlet which is always welcome in this deck.
3) 5/5 (possibly larger) flying lifelinker. Not a beast, but none of our stuff really is. We win mostly through long battles of attrition where a 5/5 flying lifelinker is fine.
4) He potentially plays really well with creatures on Nim Deathmantle and Mimic Vat, getting him counters for spot removal every turn. Bloodghast gives him a little.
5) He pumps from and double triggers Deathbringer Liege if you run him (I still do on occasion).
6) 7 cmc makes me sad.
So I'll take out Felidar Sovereign and give Vish Kal a shot. My group tournaments don't award points for lifegain win anyway. So I guess it's finally time for the cat to go.
Anybody else got thoughts on this guy? New interactions/combos?
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Good catch. I'll have to consider that one.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Thanks.
Graveyard hate can give it some headaches, and I'm always sadface when I see some hit the table, but it's usually just a minor setback. Thankfully most gravehate is a one-shot effect instead of something like Leyline of the Void, though even then the decks got ways to kill it.
I don't see a lot of dedicated gravehate like Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt either. Most of what I see are cards that go with their deck anyway like Bojuka Bog or Nezumi Graverobber.
Long ago I had experimented with anti-gravehate like True Believer and Ivory Mask, but 99% of the time I was sorry I included them.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYep, I just checked it, you're right. I think I screwed up all my decklists on my last update.:embarrass:
I took Condemn out of my physical deck when I put in the proxy of Vish Kal to try out. I'll go update the list now. Thanks for spotting that.
Banner by Nakamura, Thanks!
EDH Math
EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
30 goldfishes and not a single weak hand.
and did you cut sudden spoiling for DB liege?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy