How has Azami been for you? I noticed you removed her then added her back in your latest iteration. You only run 3 wizards that I can see, but if she isn't dealt with she can net you quite a few cards on her own.
How has Azami been for you? I noticed you removed her then added her back in your latest iteration. You only run 3 wizards that I can see, but if she isn't dealt with she can net you quite a few cards on her own.
I was looking at creature based options for draw. Azami doesn't feel right but there are few other options available. The cost is high, but she has synergies with Wizards and Seedborn. For wizards I've got Azami, Qasali Pridemange, Aven Mindcensor, Glen Elendra, and Mirror Entity. The magic number I wish to hit for draw is 10-12. I'm a bit short. I'd probably want about 10 wizards too but I'm not going to get there. Archaeomancer I may take a look at later - it could be an alternative to Eternal Witness for infinite turns
I'll be looking to test my list this weekend or next Monday and have some feedback.
I was looking at creature based options for draw. Azami doesn't feel right but there are few other options available. The cost is high, but she has synergies with Wizards and Seedborn. For wizards I've got Azami, Qasali Pridemange, Aven Mindcensor, Glen Elendra, and Mirror Entity. The magic number I wish to hit for draw is 10-12. I'm a bit short. I'd probably want about 10 wizards too but I'm not going to get there. Archaeomancer I may take a look at later - it could be an alternative to Eternal Witness for infinite turns
I'll be looking to test my list this weekend or next Monday and have some feedback.
Forgot Mindcensor was a Wizard. I've been slowly adapting my list to be more like yours. I really like the direction you took with Rafiq. If you recall from my thread, I had a bunch of fatties and high CMC threats that just took too long to get there. I traded them for more of the utility creatures, and dropped the expensive mana stones (Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo) for ramp creatures and spells. I also like your tutor package. How has Mirror Entity been for you? Also, I have a question about your Time Walks. I see you now run 2. Have those been necessary?
Forgot Mindcensor was a Wizard. I've been slowly adapting my list to be more like yours. I really like the direction you took with Rafiq. If you recall from my thread, I had a bunch of fatties and high CMC threats that just took too long to get there. I traded them for more of the utility creatures, and dropped the expensive mana stones (Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo) for ramp creatures and spells. I also like your tutor package. How has Mirror Entity been for you? Also, I have a question about your Time Walks. I see you now run 2. Have those been necessary?
Thanks for your praise! I've been testing and cutting a lot of cards, and this process is a big part of what makes mtg fun and enjoyable. I'd say you are going in the right direction. A purely aggro Rafiq build without card advantage just can't win against a large table. The utility creatures and Skullclamp are the backbone of my list.
Mirror Entity has been decent. It's primary purpose is to be a creature based sack outlet in the Lark combo (I picked up from ISBPathfinder). If I were not to include the combo I would cut Mirror Entity from the list. Mirror Entity also counts as a Wizard and we can Clamp creatures with toughness greater than 2 and draw immediately. We can also use Mirror Entity to pump up attackers. If it had some sort of built in evasion or draw I'd be ecstatic.
Time walks: The extra turn effects I'm not sure I need them. They may be in the category of win more cards. When played they amplify the cards we have out in play. Sometimes this is really useful. But when we have no board it's useless. ISB raves about them so I thought I'd test them. At worst the time walk is a neutral card and at best it finishes a game
Yeah, my new build has been really explosive since making the adjustments inspired by your list.
Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but what exactly is the Entity/Lark combo? I run Lark but not Entity, and feel I may need to adjust that if the combo is worth it. I'm still fairly new to EDH to a lot of the common combos are foreign to me. I do like that Entity can make any creature clampable, though.
That was may take on the Time Walks, as well. If you have cards that can benefit from an extra turn, you're likely already winning. I guess at worst it's a Seedborn Muse effect/Explore.
Under Synergy and Combos on ISB's Jenara list here http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=311261 you can find the Lark combo. With Acidic Slime you kill off all your opponents' lands and force a concession or you can draw your deck with Coiling Oracle. Or if you play Venser, Shaper Savant you can bounce everything
Hmm, it kinda makes sense to me. I think I'm a little hazy on the arbitrary "100 triggers" of Mirror Entity. Never played with the card before so I'm trying to figure out in my head how it would all work. I see the end result, just not sure how to play it correctly.
Mirror Entity's X ability says pay any number of mana. Hypothetically if you pay 1 mana into his ability it will then go on the stack. People can from that point respond to the ability being on the stack. So how the combo works is you pay 0 mana with his ability. With the ability on the stack, you activate his ability again, and again, and again, and again. Until the stack looks something like this
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn: this one on the top of the stack will then resolve, and your rev trigger will pop on top of the stack. Which will then resolve, and any CIP triggers will also be added to the stack. Once all of that is resolved
Then this instance will happen-> All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn: and the process will be repeated assuming body double came back into play.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
I am glad to hear that the extra turns have been working out for you. I was extremely cynical of them at first but after a few games just running one of them I realized that they had some crazy potential.
Let me know how Deadeye Navigator works out for you. I have been on the fence with him for a long time but still leaning towards no currently. It has sort of made me wonder if Mistmeadow Witch might be worth another look though.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The time walk effects are crazy multipliers. They increase the amount of shenanigans you can do. At worse they are a push (unless you have less than 5 mana). The best case scenario is you combo off. I'm definately loving them. I hesitate at adding a 3rd time walk effect with Time Warp but I'll go pick up a foil one just in case I change my mind
Deadeye Navigator's problem is its expensive and vulnerable to removal. But if unanswered it can cause significant problems to opponents when paired with Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, Coiling Oracle, Terastodon, Venser, Shaper Savant, Eternal Witness, or any one of our ETB creatures. With that thought I decided it was worth testing. I'd say Venser the Sojourner is the cheaper more efficient option but late game the Navigator would be the more deadly of the two. Crystal Shard has also proven quite useful early and midgame. Being able to save our creatures from board wipes is nothing to scoff at. And it annoys the heck out of opponents. When they play a creature they've got to keep 2 mana open. Together all 3 should provide enough shenanigans with our ETB creatures as to make life difficult for opponents
I put my list up on deckstats its a nice site. Looks like I should cut a plains and add an Island
It has sort of made me wonder if Mistmeadow Witch might be worth another look though.
I've had Mistmeadow Witch in couple decks and always ended up cutting it, cause the 4 mana activation cost is just too much. I guess it could be worth testing if you run Seedborn Muse.
I've had Mistmeadow Witch in couple decks and always ended up cutting it, cause the 4 mana activation cost is just too much. I guess it could be worth testing if you run Seedborn Muse.
Using Crystal Shard to bounce an ETB creature and recasting it will cost 3-9 mana. To combo off by bouncing Eternal Witness, recasting her, and casting one of our time walk spells it'd cost 9 mana. It's probably the strongest defensive card of the 4 we're looking at because we can bounce opponents creatures and our own
Venser, the Sojourner would cost nothing to use. Works really well with ETB creatures in play. Just 5 mana is needed to combo out with Eternal Witness in play and a time walk effect in the grave. It's sorcery speed is a grave weakness but its the most efficient
Deadeye Navigator would probably not be usuable the turn it enters play. Unlike the two options above, multiple activations are possible, probably 2-4 per turn. But we are limited to our own bonded creatures. With Eternal Witness in play, 7 mana total is needed to combo off.
Mistmeadow Witch Probably limited to 1 activation per turn but it can be clamped and we can use it on opponents creatures. Costs 9 to use with Eternal Witness in play to combo out. That's pretty tough to get to. Crystal Shard is better overall for its lower activation cost and defensive possibilities. If the list is humming along we will not have 4 mana open
Stripped out Eldrazi Conscription, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Elesh Norn, Qasali Pridemage. Put in Deadeye Navigator, Time Warp, Palinchron, Archaeomancer. Deadeye Navigator is game breaking if not addressed by the table. Lightened my individual offense and defense while strengthening synergies and combo
Played a couple 1vs1 games against Ghave. There was only one game of note, where I was the mouse, and Ghave was the cat toying with my deck. He did a first turn Mana Vault into 2nd turn Cultivate and Sylvan Library. 3rd turn Phyrexian Arena. 5th turn Prime Time to get some LD. Crystal Shard and Metamorph kept me in the game. Ghave didn't finish me and I eventually chained 3 time walks via Archaeomancer, Metamorph, and Witness to get to Survival and combo out. Our other games ended fairly abruptly.
Cut out Natural Order, Terastodon, Palinchron, Venser Shaper Savant, Dust Bowl as they are mainly too slow or bad in opening hands. Putting in Tezzeret, Oblivion Stone, Stonehewer Giant, Mystic Gate, and a Forest. Back up to 37 lands. Finest Hour may go next. Its a great damage multiplier but its redundant with time walk effects. Draw effects and enchantment removal feel a bit light.
Archaeomancer has been really solid. Almost like having a second Eternal Witness in the deck. The power level of all our instants and sorceries increased. Being able to pod and chain time walks has been extremely powerful
Cut Finest Hour and replaced it with Muddle the Mixture. The time walk effects made Finest Hour unnecessary. Muddle the Mixture is slow, but it's a nice utility card. Grants access to a plethora of nice 2cc tutors, removal, draw, and combo options. And it can always be used as a counter. Replaced Sunpetal Grove with Brushland. Playing a land tapped can cost you a turn. I'd rather take the 1 damage. I liked Brushland over Horizon Canopy for no penalty on producing colorless mana and I'd probably only rarely use the sacrifice to draw option
Cut Muddle the Mixture and Mirror Entity. Muddle was a bit slow and Mirror Entity was useless outside of the Lark Combo. After talking with Iceman530 I decided to replace them with Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sea Gate Oracle. Jace can help us combo out with Eternal Witness in play and an extra turn effect in hand/grave (though it does take 15 mana to go full infinite). He can also, like Sea Gate Oracle, help us dig. With the large number of creatures we play it's possible to defend our planeswalkers, so I guess its finally time to go pick up a foil Jace
Cut Reveillark and Survival of the Fittest. Without a combo finish from Survival I was generally not overjoyed to see it in hand without at least 1 disposable creature in hand. 2 cards to put one in hand is not bad, but not great. Reveillark too needed creatures in the yard to get value from and was often a dead card for long stretches. So I decided to cut them and put in more cards capable of creating a board presence. One area I thought the deck was light in is cards which can dominate the board: Primeval, Sun Titan, Stonehewer Giant, Consecrated Sphinx, Deadeye Navigator (with a friend). Now there will be Sovereigns of Lost Alara and Eldrazi Conscription.
Main reason was I needed one of Ertai, Wizard Adept, Alchemist's Refuge, Azami Lady of Scrolls, or Deadeye Navigator in play together with Seedborn to get enough value to justify its inclusion. This was hard to do. The body on Seedborn is also quite small with no evasion. Its not clampable. It doesn't block a Titan. If I had 8 or more spells/permanents in my list which could break open a game with Seedborn in play with them, I would include it. But I don't.
Bottom line finest hour and sublime archangel need to be included and i think there are some better cheaper choices to some of your tutors ill have more of a look tom.
Bottom line finest hour and sublime archangel need to be included and i think there are some better cheaper choices to some of your tutors ill have more of a look tom.
The extra turn effects have largely obsoleted exalted and selkie. Finest Hour was a tough cut, but a necessary one. This list is currently all about value, (ETB creatures) and extra turn effects. So far I like this configuration better than the ones I've tried before. It's much more consistent(holding a fistful of cards is very comforting). I also still retain 1-shot KO capabilities with Putrefax and Sovereigns.
The next card I will be adding is Roaring Primadox. It can assist us in comboing out and there are a lot of ETB creatures we can abuse. Just got to figure out how to squeeze it in.
So I'm stuck. I've identified 3 of what I'd consider the weaker cards on this list:
1. Eldrazi Conscription - terrible card to draw
2. Sovereigns of Lost Alara - no etb synergies to abuse, nor is he clampable. I'm thinking to if I include Soveriegns we should have at least 3 auras but I don't have 3 I wish to incluide
3. Noble HIerarch - no etb synergies to abuse, usefulness limited to early game, but he is clampable
These cards are luxuries and do not directly contribute to my win condition or etb theme. But I'm at a loss over what to replace them with. Ideas?
So I'm stuck. I've identified 3 of what I'd consider the weaker cards on this list:
1. Eldrazi Conscription - terrible card to draw
Is it really that terrible? If you drop it unanswered onto Rafiq, you can knock someone out of the game then and there. I'd say that's worth 8 mana and a bit of risk.
I was looking at creature based options for draw. Azami doesn't feel right but there are few other options available. The cost is high, but she has synergies with Wizards and Seedborn. For wizards I've got Azami, Qasali Pridemange, Aven Mindcensor, Glen Elendra, and Mirror Entity. The magic number I wish to hit for draw is 10-12. I'm a bit short. I'd probably want about 10 wizards too but I'm not going to get there. Archaeomancer I may take a look at later - it could be an alternative to Eternal Witness for infinite turns
I'll be looking to test my list this weekend or next Monday and have some feedback.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Forgot Mindcensor was a Wizard. I've been slowly adapting my list to be more like yours. I really like the direction you took with Rafiq. If you recall from my thread, I had a bunch of fatties and high CMC threats that just took too long to get there. I traded them for more of the utility creatures, and dropped the expensive mana stones (Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo) for ramp creatures and spells. I also like your tutor package. How has Mirror Entity been for you? Also, I have a question about your Time Walks. I see you now run 2. Have those been necessary?
Thanks for your praise! I've been testing and cutting a lot of cards, and this process is a big part of what makes mtg fun and enjoyable. I'd say you are going in the right direction. A purely aggro Rafiq build without card advantage just can't win against a large table. The utility creatures and Skullclamp are the backbone of my list.
Mirror Entity has been decent. It's primary purpose is to be a creature based sack outlet in the Lark combo (I picked up from ISBPathfinder). If I were not to include the combo I would cut Mirror Entity from the list. Mirror Entity also counts as a Wizard and we can Clamp creatures with toughness greater than 2 and draw immediately. We can also use Mirror Entity to pump up attackers. If it had some sort of built in evasion or draw I'd be ecstatic.
Time walks: The extra turn effects I'm not sure I need them. They may be in the category of win more cards. When played they amplify the cards we have out in play. Sometimes this is really useful. But when we have no board it's useless. ISB raves about them so I thought I'd test them. At worst the time walk is a neutral card and at best it finishes a game
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but what exactly is the Entity/Lark combo? I run Lark but not Entity, and feel I may need to adjust that if the combo is worth it. I'm still fairly new to EDH to a lot of the common combos are foreign to me. I do like that Entity can make any creature clampable, though.
That was may take on the Time Walks, as well. If you have cards that can benefit from an extra turn, you're likely already winning. I guess at worst it's a Seedborn Muse effect/Explore.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn: this one on the top of the stack will then resolve, and your rev trigger will pop on top of the stack. Which will then resolve, and any CIP triggers will also be added to the stack. Once all of that is resolved
Then this instance will happen-> All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn: and the process will be repeated assuming body double came back into play.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
All creatures you control have P/T 0/0 until end of turn.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Let me know how Deadeye Navigator works out for you. I have been on the fence with him for a long time but still leaning towards no currently. It has sort of made me wonder if Mistmeadow Witch might be worth another look though.
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Deadeye Navigator's problem is its expensive and vulnerable to removal. But if unanswered it can cause significant problems to opponents when paired with Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, Coiling Oracle, Terastodon, Venser, Shaper Savant, Eternal Witness, or any one of our ETB creatures. With that thought I decided it was worth testing. I'd say Venser the Sojourner is the cheaper more efficient option but late game the Navigator would be the more deadly of the two. Crystal Shard has also proven quite useful early and midgame. Being able to save our creatures from board wipes is nothing to scoff at. And it annoys the heck out of opponents. When they play a creature they've got to keep 2 mana open. Together all 3 should provide enough shenanigans with our ETB creatures as to make life difficult for opponents
I put my list up on deckstats its a nice site. Looks like I should cut a plains and add an Island
Deckstats
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I've had Mistmeadow Witch in couple decks and always ended up cutting it, cause the 4 mana activation cost is just too much. I guess it could be worth testing if you run Seedborn Muse.
Using Crystal Shard to bounce an ETB creature and recasting it will cost 3-9 mana. To combo off by bouncing Eternal Witness, recasting her, and casting one of our time walk spells it'd cost 9 mana. It's probably the strongest defensive card of the 4 we're looking at because we can bounce opponents creatures and our own
Venser, the Sojourner would cost nothing to use. Works really well with ETB creatures in play. Just 5 mana is needed to combo out with Eternal Witness in play and a time walk effect in the grave. It's sorcery speed is a grave weakness but its the most efficient
Deadeye Navigator would probably not be usuable the turn it enters play. Unlike the two options above, multiple activations are possible, probably 2-4 per turn. But we are limited to our own bonded creatures. With Eternal Witness in play, 7 mana total is needed to combo off.
Mistmeadow Witch Probably limited to 1 activation per turn but it can be clamped and we can use it on opponents creatures. Costs 9 to use with Eternal Witness in play to combo out. That's pretty tough to get to. Crystal Shard is better overall for its lower activation cost and defensive possibilities. If the list is humming along we will not have 4 mana open
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Cut out Natural Order, Terastodon, Palinchron, Venser Shaper Savant, Dust Bowl as they are mainly too slow or bad in opening hands. Putting in Tezzeret, Oblivion Stone, Stonehewer Giant, Mystic Gate, and a Forest. Back up to 37 lands. Finest Hour may go next. Its a great damage multiplier but its redundant with time walk effects. Draw effects and enchantment removal feel a bit light.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Cut Finest Hour and replaced it with Muddle the Mixture. The time walk effects made Finest Hour unnecessary. Muddle the Mixture is slow, but it's a nice utility card. Grants access to a plethora of nice 2cc tutors, removal, draw, and combo options. And it can always be used as a counter. Replaced Sunpetal Grove with Brushland. Playing a land tapped can cost you a turn. I'd rather take the 1 damage. I liked Brushland over Horizon Canopy for no penalty on producing colorless mana and I'd probably only rarely use the sacrifice to draw option
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Main reason was I needed one of Ertai, Wizard Adept, Alchemist's Refuge, Azami Lady of Scrolls, or Deadeye Navigator in play together with Seedborn to get enough value to justify its inclusion. This was hard to do. The body on Seedborn is also quite small with no evasion. Its not clampable. It doesn't block a Titan. If I had 8 or more spells/permanents in my list which could break open a game with Seedborn in play with them, I would include it. But I don't.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Don't have much time atm to run through and make suggestions but i'll be back.
Battlegrace Angel (exalted flying lifelink)
Cold-Eyed Selkie (draw cards = to dmg done)
Saffi Eriksdotter (anti wipe)
Silent Arbiter (anti aggro/mass block)
Dueling Grounds (anti aggro/mass block enchant)
Finest Hour (extra combat phase exalted effect probably the best card for any rafiq deck as then exalted stacks twice)
Prison Term (amazing disabler)
Rancor (amazing recurring trample pumper)
Knight of Glory (exalted prot black beater)
Cathedral of War (exalted land?)
Sublime Archangel (the holy god mother of all exalted cards for 4 mana! flying gives exalted to every creature PUT THIS IN YOUR DECK)
Bottom line finest hour and sublime archangel need to be included and i think there are some better cheaper choices to some of your tutors ill have more of a look tom.
The extra turn effects have largely obsoleted exalted and selkie. Finest Hour was a tough cut, but a necessary one. This list is currently all about value, (ETB creatures) and extra turn effects. So far I like this configuration better than the ones I've tried before. It's much more consistent(holding a fistful of cards is very comforting). I also still retain 1-shot KO capabilities with Putrefax and Sovereigns.
The next card I will be adding is Roaring Primadox. It can assist us in comboing out and there are a lot of ETB creatures we can abuse. Just got to figure out how to squeeze it in.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
1. Eldrazi Conscription - terrible card to draw
2. Sovereigns of Lost Alara - no etb synergies to abuse, nor is he clampable. I'm thinking to if I include Soveriegns we should have at least 3 auras but I don't have 3 I wish to incluide
3. Noble HIerarch - no etb synergies to abuse, usefulness limited to early game, but he is clampable
These cards are luxuries and do not directly contribute to my win condition or etb theme. But I'm at a loss over what to replace them with. Ideas?
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Is it really that terrible? If you drop it unanswered onto Rafiq, you can knock someone out of the game then and there. I'd say that's worth 8 mana and a bit of risk.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths