MTG Salvation

Quote from the_offspring »

I changed my Norin to a Purphoros list in the past, and that version was relying more heavily on going wide, with cards like Snake Basket and Tempt with Vengeance. Moreover, I personally think Purphoros is, while undoubtedly more powerful, the more standard an frankly kind of dull option.

In other news: what do we think about the new carddrawing options Wheel of Misfortune and Jeska's Will?

Wheel is okay. A bit win-more. Jeska's Will is cool, though it must be the first spell you cast.

Any thoughts on Jeweled Lotus?

I don't much like the lotus for Norin. I have around 15 commander decks right now and considering it only for the decks that either want the commander out as quickly as possible (Azusa, Lost but Seeking, for example) or rely heavily on it to be on the battlefield (Rasputin Dreamweaver). That, plus the fact that I don't think it's often good enough to be run in decks with three or more colors, means that there's about four decks that it might be good in and I'm sure as hell not spending over a hundred euros to find that out. As an example: I have a K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth deck that meets both requirements (want it out early and need to stay), and it will resemble a Dark Ritual very much in that list - and that's not one of the better cards in the deck.

TLDR: I'm not stoked.

So I've been playing Norin almost exclusively ever since I found Gaka's post way back in 2010. First commander deck I built with just piles of random red cards I had in my collection. Deck has gone through many, MANY, changes but this is the list I've been using for awhile now and I am very happy with it. Past couple years have really shaken up the build with some of the awesome cards they've been printing (Torbran, Underworld Breach, Wheel of Misfortune, DOCKSIDE just to name a few).


Never posted on Salvation before so I don't know how format a decklist on here, but please check it out at https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/current-norin-1/ and let me know what y'all think!

Purphoros has always been the way more powerful alternative, but it's also obnoxious to play against for your friends. Norin is an active downgrade in power to get a more innocent looking fun commander, that has some weird synergies.

Jeska's Will seems pretty good. It's card draw and (temporary) mana in one.

Wheel of Misfortune is definitely a nice budget alternative to Wheel of Fortune.

Horizon Stone is also kind of interesting for the big mana decks.

Ingenuity Engine also does seem kind of interesting. 7 mana is a lot, but it also ensures, that it hits pretty much anything with cascade. The activated ability is definitely very desireable.

Zendikar Rising Review:

Leyline Tyrant - Yes, please! This card is really solid for what the deck wants to do.

Moraug, Fury of Akoum - Worth consideration as a bomb, but it is a bit win-more. I like the idea.

Relic Robber - Cute card. Not super effective.

Valakut Awakening - Worth consideration, but the wheel effect is slightly less than strong enough.

Valakut Exploration - I like this card quite a bit for what it is.

Forsaken Monument - Great card for the deck. Interacts quite well with a lot of other cards, despite being on the high-mana side of things.

Lithoform Engine - I'm torn on this card. I like Rings-style cards, but this feels just slightly too costly for its effect not happening more than once per turn.

Skyclave Relic - Strictly better Darksteel Ingot? Sign me up!

Commander Legends Review:

Coercive Recruiter - Comparable to Zealous Conscripts. Worth consideration.

Dargo, the Shipwrecker - I mean, it is just a beefy dude, but it's very easy for it to be a 1 mana 7/5 with trample.

Emberwilde Captain - Monarch is kinda whatever for me, but I'm going into the red zone a bit more often so I'm not entirely opposed to considering this card.

Flamekin Herald - I want to see this happen. A lot of cool effects from this. My thought process is grabbing Wheel of Fate, Mana Crypt, Mox Amber, Mox Opal, and maybe Mox Diamond.

Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith - I feel like this card fits really well into what we want to do in the deck.

Wheel of Misfortune - I wish this card was better than it is. As is, I like the idea of it, but the most effective usage bothers me. I sorta feel obligated to test it if and when I next get a real game going.

Horizon Stone - Not nearly as effective as Leyline Tyrant. Worth consideration, but I think it's a little too do-nothing/win-more for its cost.

Ingenuity Engine - It's okay. At 7 mana, it's unlikely to be as worthwhile as I'd like, but it's worth consideration when going wide.

War Room - Decent consideration. Red decks like this one can use the draw, and this is one of the first lands where the cost/effect ratio might be worth it. That said, it's going to be hard to slot it in given the already present issues with lack of coloured mana. I'll see where I go on this. For now, picking one up to at least consider testing.

From Commander Legends, I'd really want to give Wheel of Misfortune a shot. More wheel effects definitely seems worth it. Also, reading it again the way you put it Osie, Flamekin Herald is really the way I want to go with Norin. Having a shot at a Wheel of Fate (but not being certain you'll hit it) is exactly what I want to achieve in Norin. The other ones I'm considering are War Room (card draw is still an issue in my opinion) and Jeska's Will - the latter feels like a red 'intuitive' ponder in most cases I think.

Also, I got my hands on a Lithoform Engine recently and I'm tempted to try it out in Norin. Seems like there will be enough decent options to copy for us.

Quote from the_offspring »

From Commander Legends, I'd really want to give Wheel of Misfortune a shot. More wheel effects definitely seems worth it. Also, reading it again the way you put it Osie, Flamekin Herald is really the way I want to go with Norin. Having a shot at a Wheel of Fate (but not being certain you'll hit it) is exactly what I want to achieve in Norin. The other ones I'm considering are War Room (card draw is still an issue in my opinion) and Jeska's Will - the latter feels like a red 'intuitive' ponder in most cases I think.

Also, I got my hands on a Lithoform Engine recently and I'm tempted to try it out in Norin. Seems like there will be enough decent options to copy for us.

The moxen are also a benefit to it.

As for the Lithoform, I think it's not as good as Rings of Brighthearth and/or Strionic Resonator. The CMC is slightly too high for what it is. The spell ability is irrelephant and the permanent ability is mostly irrelephant.

Hi osie, what does your deck look like now? How does this deck stack up nowadays to say a high power casual group? I haven't touched this deck since around 2015 with a gobin focused build, and I'm thinking of updating it.

Quote from s0undfx »

Hi osie, what does your deck look like now? How does this deck stack up nowadays to say a high power casual group? I haven't touched this deck since around 2015 with a gobin focused build, and I'm thinking of updating it.

I have yet to pick up the Commander Legends cards. Flamekin Herald is exciting.

I don't get to play very often any more; I'd love to have more opportunities to play via webcam...

Current Decklist:



Need to get Rings of Brighthearth back in the deck for realsies just because it's SO good. Also, want to increase my creature count again, by 1-2 slots.

Planning to pick up Flamekin Herald and probably Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith, along with Tome of Legends and Mox Opal.

Probably cutting Field of the Dead for a Snow-Covered Mountain.

On the shortlist to consider cutting:



Feldon always feels a little slow for me. Gadrak is not as exciting as I hoped. Relic is less necessary with Scavenger Grounds in the deck. Mind Stone is the least likely of these to disappear, but is a consideration I've had in the past. Gauntlet of Power just feels not very helpful when it comes up given the usefulness of the other two nowadays. Flameshadow Conjuring is very win-more in my experience with it.

I've had a bit of mana irregularity from the last games I remember, so I may ponder some fixes for that, particularly involving damage or draw.

Thanks for that! Would you say in 2021 this would still hold its own in a tuned, high power casual group?

Quote from s0undfx »

Thanks for that! Would you say in 2021 this would still hold its own in a tuned, high power casual group?

Only if the player is strong enough (as has always been the case for Norin).

So your only cascade targets for casting Norin with Flamekin Herald out would be Mana Crypt, Mox Amber, Wheel of Fate, and the potential Mox Opal?

Quote from lyonhaert »

So your only cascade targets for casting Norin with Flamekin Herald out would be Mana Crypt, Mox Amber, Wheel of Fate, and the potential Mox Opal?

All of which are probably worth it?

When/why did grip of chaos and planar chaos fall out of favor? Those were some of my favorite cards in the deck but it seems like they got cut.

Quote from s0undfx »

When/why did grip of chaos and planar chaos fall out of favor? Those were some of my favorite cards in the deck but it seems like they got cut.

osieorb18 is not Gaka, the OP, but one of the main folks still running a variant of the list and maintaining presence in this thread. Gaka's been gone some time now. Grip of Chaos and Planar Chaos as disruption enchantments were necessary in Gaka's meta at the time he was maintaining this thread, but most other folks running a variant of the list don't need them for their meta or they would be too oppressive or disruptive to their own plan.

Edit: This forum has a way to search the thread for keywords - you'll probably be able to find discussion about those cards and what reasons others cut them.

I for one am still running both grip of chaos and planar chaos. They're two of the stronger red control cards, along with Blood Moon and possibly Stranglehold. In my meta, enchantment removal is still not really present, even though it's become pretty tuned. Norin is no longer one of the stronger decks, but still one of the more fun decks to play and although it's a bit more chaosy than your average deck, it's still pretty well-respected. And every now and then, it does some really powerful stuff.

When I get the chance, I'll post my most recent build. I've been updating it regularly now for years and recently rebuilt it from scratch.

Quote from the_offspring »

I for one am still running both grip of chaos and planar chaos. They're two of the stronger red control cards, along with Blood Moon and possibly Stranglehold. In my meta, enchantment removal is still not really present, even though it's become pretty tuned. Norin is no longer one of the stronger decks, but still one of the more fun decks to play and although it's a bit more chaosy than your average deck, it's still pretty well-respected. And every now and then, it does some really powerful stuff.

When I get the chance, I'll post my most recent build. I've been updating it regularly now for years and recently rebuilt it from scratch.

I'd definitely be interested in seeing your list when you find the time

Quote from s0undfx »

When/why did grip of chaos and planar chaos fall out of favor? Those were some of my favorite cards in the deck but it seems like they got cut.

Grip of Chaos doesn't do enough immediately for its cost for my build. Planar Chaos impedes my own plan too much for not having effective ways to ignore it.

Alright, found some time to enter my updated list. Here it is:






Other notes:

• I haven't tested the deck much since I revised it, since there's only one evening a week I'm able to get in some games and there's about fifteen decks I regularly want to play. That said, It does run better than it did, mainly because of the additional card draw and lower average CMC than it used to have. The main issue now is dealing with threats. I fear I run too little removal.
• This is never going to be a tier one deck on our table, nor do I want it to be. So upping the power by adding Mana Crypts etc isn't worth it for me.
• I really like the little chaos aspect that it has and I'm not willing to give that up. It's the only deck I have that does that.

The artifact section may have gotten messed up in posting...

Woops, tnx Osie. Fixed that. Probably a copy/paste error on my side.

Hmm, there are ideas to potentially steal here...

Not much from Kaldheim that seems like it lends itself to Norin all that well.

Tibalt's Trickery seems interesting. I would like Magda, Brazen Outlaw a lot more if she were a goblin.

Kaldheim Review:

Birgi, God of Storytelling - Both sides of this card are quite interesting for Norin. Definitely a consideration, though at the moment, I'm not QUITE there on it.

Goldspan Dragon - I sorta like the idea of going all-in on a treasure subtheme, but at the moment it's not quite good enough. This would be a definite contender for that subtheme.

Magda, Brazen Outlaw - Same point as Goldspan Dragon about this being good for a treasure subtheme.

Quakebringer - Meh. For 5 mana this doesn't do enough, and the foretell ability isn't enough to justify it.

Tibalt's Trickery - This MIGHT be worth it. I do like me an unexpected counterspell, and you can use it to set yourself up, particularly if you get lucky with the numbering.

Toralf, God of Fury - I sorta want to do some shenanigans here too, but again, the effect's not quite worth it for its cost. A bit too niche.

Pyre of Heroes - Norin meets Pod? Might be good for the Goblin decks.

Replicating Ring - Too slow, but kinda cute.

As a theorycraft for the lolz, this is what the start of a treasure package might look like:

Imma test Tibalt's Trickery for sure. I love the fact that you don't see it coming, and I'm looking forward to the time I'm countering my own Curse of Opulence to reveal a Warstorm Surge after using SDT.

Also, I really overlooked Pyre of Heroes. I'm not a Pod fan in commander, but as you know I do run the goblin package. And saccing a token to fetch Goblin Welder. Also, the chain would go Norin the Wary --> Mogg War Marshal --> Squee, Goblin Nabob --> Krenko, Mob Boss.. Unchecked off course, and slow, but still... that's sweeeet. And good value and alternatives along the way.