When did Norin become a deck that attacks? I see so many goblin decks with Norin as the helm. Norin decks never used to attack
I agree. This all comes down to Gaka, who first had a very goblin centric list 9 years ago. This is completely outdated nowadays, but many people still stick to it.
Oh no, I've been following this deck all 9 years. Gaka's version used attacking as a last resort. It was about ETB abuse. Now I see a ton of creatures here strictly for attacking. Never thought I'd see a Hellrider in a list
Oh no, I've been following this deck all 9 years. Gaka's version used attacking as a last resort. It was about ETB abuse. Now I see a ton of creatures here strictly for attacking. Never thought I'd see a Hellrider in a list
It has to do with tuning to the token elements of the deck and optimization towards lower mana costs, instead of more fragile, splashy plays.
Unpredictable Cyclone - Kinda cool, but not cool enough to go all-in on a cycling package.
Yidaro, Wandering Monster - The problem with cycling cards is that they are essentially filler until you are casting them for their base effects. Yidaro is no exception, and its base effect is not good enough to warrant its investments.
Bonders' Enclave - The average creature in the deck is too small for this card to make sense.
Super late to the game, but I agree, Osie. The only one of the lot I'd consider is Lukka, since Norin is an easy target himself and we make enough tokens to make the -2 interesting. The +1 is sketchy though, and since I hardly ever play a PW for his ultimate, that one is not too interesting either.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
If you watch the video they describe the change. Basically commanders will work like tokens, first they hit the yard/exile then you immediately choose whether to move them to the command zone as a state-based action. Just enough time for triggers to fire but not enough time to respond with anything.
The reason this is relevant for norin is kind of nuanced. The way norin is worded when he exiled himself you were able to put him in the commandzone and still have him come back. Since the commander rule was a replacement effect that took effect "when he would go to exile" he never actually went to exile, he just went straight to the commandzone. And since the second part of his ability doesn't say anything about returning only from exile he could come back from the commandzone to play at end of turn. This protected him in case someone used a stifle or something to prevent him from returning, you could just re-cast him.
It sounds like this will no longer be the case. If the rules change the way they describe then norin will have to first literally go to exile before you can move him to the commandzone. Which means if you did move him to the commandzone at that point he becomes a new instance since he changed zones. Therefore the game won't be able to return him.
Obviously take this with a huge grain of salt since we don't have the final written version of the new rules yet. And even if it does work the way I'm describing it isn't game over for norin or anything. Just means he might become a bit more vulnerable to being actually stuck in exile in the future.
If you watch the video they describe the change. Basically commanders will work like tokens, first they hit the yard/exile then you immediately choose whether to move them to the command zone as a state-based action. Just enough time for triggers to fire but not enough time to respond with anything.
The reason this is relevant for norin is kind of nuanced. The way norin is worded when he exiled himself you were able to put him in the commandzone and still have him come back. Since the commander rule was a replacement effect that took effect "when he would go to exile" he never actually went to exile, he just went straight to the commandzone. And since the second part of his ability doesn't say anything about returning only from exile he could come back from the commandzone to play at end of turn. This protected him in case someone used a stifle or something to prevent him from returning, you could just re-cast him.
It sounds like this will no longer be the case. If the rules change the way they describe then norin will have to first literally go to exile before you can move him to the commandzone. Which means if you did move him to the commandzone at that point he becomes a new instance since he changed zones. Therefore the game won't be able to return him.
Obviously take this with a huge grain of salt since we don't have the final written version of the new rules yet. And even if it does work the way I'm describing it isn't game over for norin or anything. Just means he might become a bit more vulnerable to being actually stuck in exile in the future.
Nah, it's essentially confirmed by the RC that Norin is nerfed.
Oh well. And there's not really a good way to handle it. Mirror of Fate is garbage.
I had to read it a second time before I dared to believe that Norin actually was going to get a serious new toy to play with. It's been a long time since a card was printed that works so well with Norin's bouncyness. I love it and it's definetely going in.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
So first off, the rules change sucks for us. Oh well. The command zone gimmick was never likely to stay.
Commander 2020 Review
Deflecting Swat - Not a bad choice. And I like that you can cast it in response to Norin leaving. Not my cup of tea, but worth considering. Given the rules change, we might want to consider a safety package, though.
Molten Echoes - I don't think there's enough of a tribal pull at the moment, but the goblin decks can eat this card up.
Furious Rise - Doesn't happen often enough, but a cool card.
Gadrak, the Crown-Scourge - I have a feeling about this card and I want to test it out. I think this card is much more nuts than anyone will give it credit.
Subira, Tulzidi Caravanner - Okay, this is on this list mostly as a joke because people got triggered by me turning dudes sideways in Norin. It's not the worst card to consider, though.
Terror of the Peaks - I love this card. Solid Norin card and a good curve topper. Fills the void left by all of the Warstorm Surge variants.
Out of the three of these, the only one I definitely would actively consider running is Strionic Resonator. Keep in mind that you can keep it open until the last minute and copy the very last Purph/Terror trigger instead of the Norin trigger if it doesn't become relevant. Still loses out to Trickbind, but honestly, if someone Trickbinds a Norin trigger, I'd just turn the deck into beatdown of that player every game they play that deck including that game. Heck, if someone's using Trickbind on a Norin trigger, run targeted hate for that deck, methinks. Subbing in/out copies of Active Volcano, Boil, Boiling Seas, Curse of Marit Lage, Scald, Mindsparker, maybe Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Price of Glory...
(I'm mostly kidding but I just would just expect to leave Norin in the command zone if playing against that deck.)
I think Fiery Emancipation is an easy auto include at least for me. This kind of going over the top effects is exactly what you want in commander. Also 6 mana is nothing.
My problem with this card is that it's a costly threat that does nothing on its own. It screams "Eat a kill spell." Warstorm Surge, unlike Terror of the Depths, runs into a similar issue. 6 mana is where EDH switches from early-to-mid-game threats to firmly mid-to-late-game threats. If someone uses a kill spell on Fiery Emancipation, ideally I want the Emancipation to have done something, or for that to be one hell of a kill spell.
Quick Jumpstart Review:
Lightning Phoenix - Worth considering. Kinda another Squee for us, albeit not legendary. I sorta want to look back at Rekindling Phoenix too...
Fiery Emancipation isn't going to make the cut for me since I'm already running some cards that do nothing on their own and this more aggressive style of play doesn't really fit the way I want to be running Norin.
Another card I didn't see mentioned here, that I will be running, is Brash Taunter. I've always liked the Stuffy Doll effect, but hated that you had to choose one opponent when it hit play. The Taunter enables some nice political trickery. He works well with Ogre Battledriver and Purphoros, God of the Forge since the power increase lets him pick off creatures with bigger butts, and he's a really solid blocker. I don't quite know if the 5 cmc is going to be too much, but I'm definately taking him for a stroll.
On the stifle effects: I really don't worry about that. My playgroup has long given up on trying to keep Norin off the board, and the deck runs quite well without the brave general.
Lastly: I like your take on Lightning Phoenix, Osie. It'll be hard to find a spot for it, but having a flyer to be able to return from the graveyard after discarding him is tempting.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
I put this deck together (osieorb's version from page 121) to play at my LGS a few times, and it was quite fun. Figured I'd throw in my one major note.
So the one quibble I wanted to bring up decklist-wise, though, was that I think it's focusing too heavily on utility lands. I had several hands I had to throw back for a lack of red mana, and many games where red mana was the constraining factor. I really don't see field of the dead getting there, virtually every game was won or lost before I got to 7 different lands (though I never drew field).
But if you really want to run it, at a minimum I would definitely run the freebie red lands like hammerheim and shinka, and either way I'd run dwarven mine. I mean, it's not the splashiest, but it does kinda do the thing the deck wants to do, by putting in a body to trigger our stuff, and is fetchable. mine even works with guantlet of might (though not gauntlet of power).
The other ones don't, ofc. But right now it feels like the deck is really killing itself on the mana trying to do both field of the dead AND dual gauntlets, when it should either be doing one or the other (probably the gauntlets imo).
I put this deck together (osieorb's version from page 121) to play at my LGS a few times, and it was quite fun. Figured I'd throw in my one major note.
So the one quibble I wanted to bring up decklist-wise, though, was that I think it's focusing too heavily on utility lands. I had several hands I had to throw back for a lack of red mana, and many games where red mana was the constraining factor. I really don't see field of the dead getting there, virtually every game was won or lost before I got to 7 different lands (though I never drew field).
But if you really want to run it, at a minimum I would definitely run the freebie red lands like hammerheim and shinka, and either way I'd run dwarven mine. I mean, it's not the splashiest, but it does kinda do the thing the deck wants to do, by putting in a body to trigger our stuff, and is fetchable. mine even works with guantlet of might (though not gauntlet of power).
The other ones don't, ofc. But right now it feels like the deck is really killing itself on the mana trying to do both field of the dead AND dual gauntlets, when it should either be doing one or the other (probably the gauntlets imo).
Yeah, the mana base is really painfully tight and I kinda want more mountains there. I'll try to renovate the mana base some and come back. I usually haven't had much issue with getting to enough mana; I might even cut Gauntlet of Power and just run Gauntlet of Might.
SO, is this not a viable deck due to the "new" cmdr dying rules change?
I don't see how it would affect the power level much, unless an opponent has a Sundial of the infinite or something like that which I rarely rarely ever see.
SO, is this not a viable deck due to the "new" cmdr dying rules change?
I don't see how it would affect the power level much, unless an opponent has a Sundial of the infinite or something like that which I rarely rarely ever see.
Aye, you basically have to let Norin stay in exile off his own trigger rather than go to the command zone, so that's technically vulnerabile to somebody stopping the return trigger, but as the_offspring said:
On the stifle effects: I really don't worry about that. My playgroup has long given up on trying to keep Norin off the board, and the deck runs quite well without the brave general.
So if your deck can still operate without Norin (and it really should), then it's probably not going to be a big deal. Just make sure that them spending a card like Stifle or Disallow gains them no value in slowing your deck so that they don't do that. And then stuff like Sundial of the Infinite is easily dealt with because R is good at dealing with artifacts.
No, the deck has too many things that work around Norin.
A Purphoros deck looks completely different.
What do you feel is specifically better with Norin than with Purphoros? Like, there have even been people commenting that the deck rarely swings in because it's more about getting a bunch of creature etb triggers through Genesis Chamber and a bunch of token generators. But those token generators work comparably well with Purphoros triggers, and Purphoros is realistically the number one option for creature etb triggers unless someone is legit just playing chaos with Confusion in the Ranks. Like, Norin himself would still be run main deck as an engine in a Purphoros deck styled similarly. The main point is that Jeweled Lotus works amazingly with Purphoros and doesn't work very well with Norin.
I changed my Norin to a Purphoros list in the past, and that version was relying more heavily on going wide, with cards like Snake Basket and Tempt with Vengeance. Moreover, I personally think Purphoros is, while undoubtedly more powerful, the more standard an frankly kind of dull option.
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
I changed my Norin to a Purphoros list in the past, and that version was relying more heavily on going wide, with cards like Snake Basket and Tempt with Vengeance. Moreover, I personally think Purphoros is, while undoubtedly more powerful, the more standard an frankly kind of dull option.
I don't much like the lotus for Norin. I have around 15 commander decks right now and considering it only for the decks that either want the commander out as quickly as possible (Azusa, Lost but Seeking, for example) or rely heavily on it to be on the battlefield (Rasputin Dreamweaver). That, plus the fact that I don't think it's often good enough to be run in decks with three or more colors, means that there's about four decks that it might be good in and I'm sure as hell not spending over a hundred euros to find that out. As an example: I have a K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth deck that meets both requirements (want it out early and need to stay), and it will resemble a Dark Ritual very much in that list - and that's not one of the better cards in the deck.
TLDR: I'm not stoked.
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A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
So I've been playing Norin almost exclusively ever since I found Gaka's post way back in 2010. First commander deck I built with just piles of random red cards I had in my collection. Deck has gone through many, MANY, changes but this is the list I've been using for awhile now and I am very happy with it. Past couple years have really shaken up the build with some of the awesome cards they've been printing (Torbran, Underworld Breach, Wheel of Misfortune, DOCKSIDE just to name a few).
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
It has to do with tuning to the token elements of the deck and optimization towards lower mana costs, instead of more fragile, splashy plays.
This set sucks and even its mother thinks that it is ugly.
If you watch the video they describe the change. Basically commanders will work like tokens, first they hit the yard/exile then you immediately choose whether to move them to the command zone as a state-based action. Just enough time for triggers to fire but not enough time to respond with anything.
The reason this is relevant for norin is kind of nuanced. The way norin is worded when he exiled himself you were able to put him in the commandzone and still have him come back. Since the commander rule was a replacement effect that took effect "when he would go to exile" he never actually went to exile, he just went straight to the commandzone. And since the second part of his ability doesn't say anything about returning only from exile he could come back from the commandzone to play at end of turn. This protected him in case someone used a stifle or something to prevent him from returning, you could just re-cast him.
It sounds like this will no longer be the case. If the rules change the way they describe then norin will have to first literally go to exile before you can move him to the commandzone. Which means if you did move him to the commandzone at that point he becomes a new instance since he changed zones. Therefore the game won't be able to return him.
Obviously take this with a huge grain of salt since we don't have the final written version of the new rules yet. And even if it does work the way I'm describing it isn't game over for norin or anything. Just means he might become a bit more vulnerable to being actually stuck in exile in the future.
Nah, it's essentially confirmed by the RC that Norin is nerfed.
Oh well. And there's not really a good way to handle it. Mirror of Fate is garbage.
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
I really like the card and am definitely considering it for a curve-topper.
Commander 2020 Review
Core Set 2021 Review
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So let's talk keeping Norin safe from Stifle.
Out of the three of these, the only one I definitely would actively consider running is Strionic Resonator. Keep in mind that you can keep it open until the last minute and copy the very last Purph/Terror trigger instead of the Norin trigger if it doesn't become relevant. Still loses out to Trickbind, but honestly, if someone Trickbinds a Norin trigger, I'd just turn the deck into beatdown of that player every game they play that deck including that game. Heck, if someone's using Trickbind on a Norin trigger, run targeted hate for that deck, methinks. Subbing in/out copies of Active Volcano, Boil, Boiling Seas, Curse of Marit Lage, Scald, Mindsparker, maybe Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Price of Glory...
(I'm mostly kidding but I just would just expect to leave Norin in the command zone if playing against that deck.)
Terror of the Peaks is definitely nice. Another copy of Warstorm Surge, that is not Pandemonium.
Pauper Cube & Artifact Pauper Cube & Multiplayer Cube
Interested in building your own Pauper Cube? Take a look at some of the lists and the following project: The "Evaluate Everything" Project (updated to M21/JMP)
My problem with this card is that it's a costly threat that does nothing on its own. It screams "Eat a kill spell." Warstorm Surge, unlike Terror of the Depths, runs into a similar issue. 6 mana is where EDH switches from early-to-mid-game threats to firmly mid-to-late-game threats. If someone uses a kill spell on Fiery Emancipation, ideally I want the Emancipation to have done something, or for that to be one hell of a kill spell.
Quick Jumpstart Review:
Another card I didn't see mentioned here, that I will be running, is Brash Taunter. I've always liked the Stuffy Doll effect, but hated that you had to choose one opponent when it hit play. The Taunter enables some nice political trickery. He works well with Ogre Battledriver and Purphoros, God of the Forge since the power increase lets him pick off creatures with bigger butts, and he's a really solid blocker. I don't quite know if the 5 cmc is going to be too much, but I'm definately taking him for a stroll.
On the stifle effects: I really don't worry about that. My playgroup has long given up on trying to keep Norin off the board, and the deck runs quite well without the brave general.
Lastly: I like your take on Lightning Phoenix, Osie. It'll be hard to find a spot for it, but having a flyer to be able to return from the graveyard after discarding him is tempting.
So the one quibble I wanted to bring up decklist-wise, though, was that I think it's focusing too heavily on utility lands. I had several hands I had to throw back for a lack of red mana, and many games where red mana was the constraining factor. I really don't see field of the dead getting there, virtually every game was won or lost before I got to 7 different lands (though I never drew field).
But if you really want to run it, at a minimum I would definitely run the freebie red lands like hammerheim and shinka, and either way I'd run dwarven mine. I mean, it's not the splashiest, but it does kinda do the thing the deck wants to do, by putting in a body to trigger our stuff, and is fetchable. mine even works with guantlet of might (though not gauntlet of power).
The other ones don't, ofc. But right now it feels like the deck is really killing itself on the mana trying to do both field of the dead AND dual gauntlets, when it should either be doing one or the other (probably the gauntlets imo).
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Yeah, the mana base is really painfully tight and I kinda want more mountains there. I'll try to renovate the mana base some and come back. I usually haven't had much issue with getting to enough mana; I might even cut Gauntlet of Power and just run Gauntlet of Might.
I don't see how it would affect the power level much, unless an opponent has a Sundial of the infinite or something like that which I rarely rarely ever see.
So if your deck can still operate without Norin (and it really should), then it's probably not going to be a big deal. Just make sure that them spending a card like Stifle or Disallow gains them no value in slowing your deck so that they don't do that. And then stuff like Sundial of the Infinite is easily dealt with because R is good at dealing with artifacts.
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
A Purphoros deck looks completely different.
What do you feel is specifically better with Norin than with Purphoros? Like, there have even been people commenting that the deck rarely swings in because it's more about getting a bunch of creature etb triggers through Genesis Chamber and a bunch of token generators. But those token generators work comparably well with Purphoros triggers, and Purphoros is realistically the number one option for creature etb triggers unless someone is legit just playing chaos with Confusion in the Ranks. Like, Norin himself would still be run main deck as an engine in a Purphoros deck styled similarly. The main point is that Jeweled Lotus works amazingly with Purphoros and doesn't work very well with Norin.
In other news: what do we think about the new carddrawing options Wheel of Misfortune and Jeska's Will?
Wheel is okay. A bit win-more. Jeska's Will is cool, though it must be the first spell you cast.
Any thoughts on Jeweled Lotus?
TLDR: I'm not stoked.
Never posted on Salvation before so I don't know how format a decklist on here, but please check it out at https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/current-norin-1/ and let me know what y'all think!