So, next on the list of "questionable WotC printing moves"...
What all do we think of this? Obviously it doesn't replace Siege-Gang Commander but are we apt to make a cut?
~Lil Kalki
I was actually hoping for something better than this. Yeah, it's a red effect and yeah, it's neat. But I agree with osie in that six mana is just too much for what it does. The golden rule is that for 6, it should be able to turn the table upside down and it will not do that.
And for something completely different: I suddenly wondered if anyone has ever tested Umezawa’s Jitte in his list? With all the tokens we make it looks like a very interesting option and I never saw any talk about it here. Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A hobby is by defenition something you're not any good at - otherwise it'd have been your work. Magic is my biggest hobby so I mustn't be very good at it.
So, next on the list of "questionable WotC printing moves"...
What all do we think of this? Obviously it doesn't replace Siege-Gang Commander but are we apt to make a cut?
~Lil Kalki
I was actually hoping for something better than this. Yeah, it's a red effect and yeah, it's neat. But I agree with osie in that six mana is just too much for what it does. The golden rule is that for 6, it should be able to turn the table upside down and it will not do that.
And for something completely different: I suddenly wondered if anyone has ever tested Umezawa’s Jitte in his list? With all the tokens we make it looks like a very interesting option and I never saw any talk about it here. Thoughts?
I think it is... okay. Keep in mind that the +2/+2 is no longer usually the best option, and for 2 to play and 2 to equip, the other modes aren't nearly as scary.
Regarding your deck info on TappedOut, I see you're in the dilemma of what to focus on - ETB Control versus All-In Chaos.
From my personal experiences I have to say that if you make ETB Control your focal point, you'll have a significantly stronger deck, but not lose out on much of the chaos that Norin is known for. You can still run Wheel effects because you need to refill your hand. You can still run Planar Chaos to slow the game down to your liking (same goes for Tangle Wire). Heck, Warp World and its ilk are fantastic for imposing diminishing returns unto an opponent or three, while still coming out on top with umpteen bazillion ETBs thanks to the tokens you warped away. The chaos can remain! You just need to figure out the proper chaos to harness, and how it helps you most.
As for All-In Chaos, I think it middles the average win rate to closer to 50/50 if the meta doesn't get sick of it. In plainer terms, it wins when it wins, and loses when it loses. It turns the deck, though, into a gimmick build and you may grow tired of that with time. IMHO better to have a deck with a commander you like stick around for more than a few games, than have a deck that is scrapped once it does its thing.
stuff the deck with every card advantage mono red can think of. then add this card. suddenly all those cards don't do anything unless you pay 3r. this is not the deck for the card, it's a far cry for being as useful as future sight.
if you want this kind of effect, you would be better off with outpost siege.
i might have dismissed the card too quickly. for all intents, all card draw can now filter in the hand whatever you don't want to play, and when you do, the only two pieces of interaction you can have in your hand are (in my deck) chaos warp and pyroblast, and the deck has the tendency to stick playing whatever you draw anyway. has anyone here tried it?
i might have dismissed the card too quickly. for all intents, all card draw can now filter in the hand whatever you don't want to play, and when you do, the only two pieces of interaction you can have in your hand are (in my deck) chaos warp and pyroblast, and the deck has the tendency to stick playing whatever you draw anyway. has anyone here tried it?
experimental frenzy in play could mean recruiter, choose anything you would wish to keep in hand as a first card and pass turn, goblin chieftain and krenko, mob boss for 7 mana for a big hit. the same line of plays that can be done with moggcatcher.
I am seriously of the consideration that Experimental Frenzy + Top is a hit, especially if we can make Top free (though that was true in blue with Future Sight anyway - BUT WE AREN'T PLAYING BLUE!). I especially like that whatever combo that can let you draw your deck out (hi there Foundry Inspector/Helm of Awakening!) costs 1 less to fire, and is less color-intensive than Future Sight/Magus to begin with. I honestly don't think it matters that you can't play your enormous hand for a turn, so long as you can keep your hand intact and/or recur what you'd have to discard, because next turn (or sooner!) you pop the Frenzy and go nuts. Either way, without a free Top, an effective "1: Draw a card" is WICKEDLY strong, even it it's just to draw lands.
I kind of think that it's best with infinite red mana (barirng mono-C, what deck isn't?), but again, it can function extremely well without that boost. Nonetheless it's absolutely worth inclusion - I stand by my assessment (though I'm open to opinions and a change or heart if it's truly THAT bad).
~Lil Kalki
EDIT: Just played a 3-man game (vs. Adamaro, First to Desire and Ramos superfriends) with the goal of making this work. Not only did it work - and thankfully I actually had a max hand size of 7 at EOT because Adamaro player would've played Gaze of Adamaro and dealt 41 or so to me after I drew 34 cards for nothing - but it got me my combo pieces for Kiki/Conscripts and won it for me by association. It truly is that good.
synergy with top is one of the selling points for me. i would probably find space for a scroll rack but i think that's the limit on what i would bend the deck to accomodate experimental frenzy.
make sure no one is running pithing needle effects though.
In my regular, ever-tightening build, I'm not feeling it.
Does your ever-tightening build happen to be anywhere online? I haven't looked through every page of this thread, but I'm curious to see it.
I haven't posted it here, if I recall correctly, or it's at least been some time. Still missing some cards that I want to test (such as Curse of Opulence and Magus of the Wheel), and I definitely need to up my creature count, but here goes:
osieorb18!
I built a Norin deck some five years ago heavily inspired by Gaka’s list. After a couple years of no EDH, I have a local group again and I’m looking to rebuild and retune. Your list is one of the most interesting takes I’ve seen. Any updates on changes you’ve made in the last year since you posted? I need ALL the ideas!
I built a Norin deck some five years ago heavily inspired by Gaka’s list. After a couple years of no EDH, I have a local group again and I’m looking to rebuild and retune. Your list is one of the most interesting takes I’ve seen. Any updates on changes you’ve made in the last year since you posted? I need ALL the ideas!
First off, I'm glad you liked my build! Thanks for seeking me out. Unfortunately, I haven't been playing a whole lot of Magic recently, but looking back at semi-recent sets in terms of this decklist:
Battlebond - Stolen Strategy is too costly for what it is. I don't like this set for Norin.
Nothing worthwhile in the Global Series.
M19 - Apex of Power is too costly to be worth it. Dark-Dweller Oracle is really dang good. The Goblin Trashmaster is useful only in the Goblin build.
C18 - Enchanter's Bane seems nifty, but is too niche and not effective enough. Loyal Apprentice is solid, though a little nombo-y with Norin himself. Still need to pick one up. Not too bad; you can just cast your spells after combat. Treasure Nabber is amazing. Saheeli's Directive is... Not quite worth it, IMO. Maybe for a Wishboard, though.
Guilds of Ravnica - Experimental Frenzy is too costly given its limitations.
My creature number is okay, but shouldn't go lower. I have a love-hate relationship with Feldon and with taking up two slots for Squees, though all three of those are well-deserved for the moment. I could use some more lower cost creatures; my creature average cmc is 3.44 and I'd like it to be closer to 3 if at all possible. Loyal Apprentice should help with that a little, though. In terms of potential cuts, the first one on my list would probably be Feldon. Magus of the Wheel is in much need of some testing to see how much I hate the lack of haste.
Artifacts are at 2.5 average cmc. Not too bad, all things considered. I like Inspiring Statuary but want to see it really flex in casting a terrifying turn. Always have a love-hate with Helm of Possession, but keeping at least 3 cards to deal with the anti-Spirit-of-EDH card Iona, Shield of Emeria (Seriously, the fact that this card isn't banned is one of the biggest problems with the banlist ever, but that's a discussion for another time and place.) is critical, and Tawnos's Coffin just isn't the same for this deck. I want another artifact that makes me go "OOH" regardless of CMC. Mox Amber did a good job at that. Maybe something in the next Ravnica set will catch my eye, but I'm not holding my breath. The artifacts I would consider cutting at the moment are Panharmonicon, Memory Jar, Inspiring Statuary, Tangle Wire, and Trading Post. That said, none of those are particularly close to the chopping block.
Enchantments are at 3.375 average cmc. I expect this to be high. Shifting Shadow will probably get replaced at some point. Flameshadow Conjuring has been nifty, especially with some clever abuses of the Legend Rule. Possibility Storm has been a defining staple. I ALSO STILL NEED A DAMN Curse of Opulence...
Planeswalkers (I'm not taking an average on low-single-digits)... Daretti is still as solid as always. Karn is necessary Iona removal and a great card on his own. With the other Karn possibly coming in, we'll see where this goes.
Chaos Warp is so amazing. I need to get another instant for Possibility Storm, which will be a PAIN IN THE BUTT based on how deck sculpting has gone in the past few years.
Sorceries are at 2.78 average CMC. I like all of them where they are at the moment. I think Dukes of Hazzard is still the best wrath choice, and Tempt with Vengeance is still the best token producer for the moment.
With 34 lands, only 16 of which are mountains, I'm thinking I might want to increase by 1. It's not happening soon, though. Flamekin Village is pretty meh. That at least may be replaced. I find it kinda amusing that I'm nearing the point where Humans and Goblins are both legit creature types for Cavern of Souls.
As always, suggestions are welcome from anyone, though my answer may be "I tried that," "I wasn't very impressed," "It's too costly," or "It doesn't fit in this build."
I am seriously of the consideration that Experimental Frenzy + Top is a hit, especially if we can make Top free (though that was true in blue with Future Sight anyway - BUT WE AREN'T PLAYING BLUE!). I especially like that whatever combo that can let you draw your deck out (hi there Foundry Inspector/Helm of Awakening!) costs 1 less to fire, and is less color-intensive than Future Sight/Magus to begin with. I honestly don't think it matters that you can't play your enormous hand for a turn, so long as you can keep your hand intact and/or recur what you'd have to discard, because next turn (or sooner!) you pop the Frenzy and go nuts. Either way, without a free Top, an effective "1: Draw a card" is WICKEDLY strong, even it it's just to draw lands.
I kind of think that it's best with infinite red mana (barirng mono-C, what deck isn't?), but again, it can function extremely well without that boost. Nonetheless it's absolutely worth inclusion - I stand by my assessment (though I'm open to opinions and a change or heart if it's truly THAT bad).
~Lil Kalki
EDIT: Just played a 3-man game (vs. Adamaro, First to Desire and Ramos superfriends) with the goal of making this work. Not only did it work - and thankfully I actually had a max hand size of 7 at EOT because Adamaro player would've played Gaze of Adamaro and dealt 41 or so to me after I drew 34 cards for nothing - but it got me my combo pieces for Kiki/Conscripts and won it for me by association. It truly is that good.
Ehh.
It's very much up to interpretation. If the pop cost was 1R or less, even with a creature sac, I'd be warmer to it. As is, it's okay, but I think the restrictions are just slightly too much for the cost for me at least. Then again, I'm also not running Outpost Siege for similar reasons.
Looking at your decklist, I would never cut Chaos Warp from the deck. I'd be interested in hearing how well Combustible Gearhulk has played for you. Path of Ancestry seems barely worth it if at all. I can see the landbase is budget though, so I'm not going to focus too hard there. I'm guessing that some of your card choices are meta-based, too. I'm still VERY unconvinced that Invader Parasite, Mindclaw Shaman, Sunbird's Invocation or Vicious Shadows are actually worth the cost.
First off, I'm glad you liked my build! Thanks for seeking me out. Unfortunately, I haven't been playing a whole lot of Magic recently, but looking back at semi-recent sets in terms of this decklist:
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will go over your list carefully while considering changes to mine. A few follow-up questions!
What do you think of Warping Wail? I am considering it mostly as “Counter target giant dumb wincon,” but all three of its modes have other utility uses and your list has 16 C sources.
No haste on Magus of the Wheel is fine. Who’s blowing their removal on this guy? Occasionally he may eat a wrath necessitated by someone else’s board, but I bet it rarely comes up. I assume you hate it when you draw him with a small hand and have to wait a turn?
What do you think of Warping Wail? I am considering it mostly as “Counter target giant dumb wincon,” but all three of its modes have other utility uses and your list has 16 C sources.
The mana ability is ehh. The exile is... okay. The sorcery use is the best but isn't exciting enough to sell it for me.
No haste on Magus of the Wheel is fine. Who’s blowing their removal on this guy? Occasionally he may eat a wrath necessitated by someone else’s board, but I bet it rarely comes up. I assume you hate it when you draw him with a small hand and have to wait a turn?
I haven't seen a ton of him, but similar cards eat removal left and right.
pyroblast is my suggestion for a second instant that it's worth to be run, while a possibility storm is in play.
can be used on any permanent, as the color check is on resolution only (so any target is legal).
pyroblast is my suggestion for a second instant that it's worth to be run, while a possibility storm is in play.
can be used on any permanent, as the color check is on resolution only (so any target is legal).
Maybe... It is 6 mana.
I was actually hoping for something better than this. Yeah, it's a red effect and yeah, it's neat. But I agree with osie in that six mana is just too much for what it does. The golden rule is that for 6, it should be able to turn the table upside down and it will not do that.
And for something completely different: I suddenly wondered if anyone has ever tested Umezawa’s Jitte in his list? With all the tokens we make it looks like a very interesting option and I never saw any talk about it here. Thoughts?
I think it is... okay. Keep in mind that the +2/+2 is no longer usually the best option, and for 2 to play and 2 to equip, the other modes aren't nearly as scary.
Good luck!
WU TBD | UB Wrexial | BR The Scorpion God | RG Xenagos | GW Katilda
WB TBD | UR TBD | BG Virtus & Gorm | RW Feather | GU Koma
GWU TBD | WUB Sefris | UBR TBD | BRG Lord Windgrace | RGW TBD
WBG TBD | URW Brallin & Shabraz | BGU Kadena | RWB Edgar | GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
WUBR TBD | UBRG Thrasios & Vial Smasher | BRGW Saskia | RGWU TBD | GWUB TBD
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon | C Kozilek
Regarding your deck info on TappedOut, I see you're in the dilemma of what to focus on - ETB Control versus All-In Chaos.
From my personal experiences I have to say that if you make ETB Control your focal point, you'll have a significantly stronger deck, but not lose out on much of the chaos that Norin is known for. You can still run Wheel effects because you need to refill your hand. You can still run Planar Chaos to slow the game down to your liking (same goes for Tangle Wire). Heck, Warp World and its ilk are fantastic for imposing diminishing returns unto an opponent or three, while still coming out on top with umpteen bazillion ETBs thanks to the tokens you warped away. The chaos can remain! You just need to figure out the proper chaos to harness, and how it helps you most.
As for All-In Chaos, I think it middles the average win rate to closer to 50/50 if the meta doesn't get sick of it. In plainer terms, it wins when it wins, and loses when it loses. It turns the deck, though, into a gimmick build and you may grow tired of that with time. IMHO better to have a deck with a commander you like stick around for more than a few games, than have a deck that is scrapped once it does its thing.
TLDR; ETB Control is the way to go.
BTW I made some slight edits to my own build, for the better: Norin 3: Nuclear Begalee
EDIT: CRATERMAKER CRATERMAKER CRATERMAKER!!!
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
~Lil Kalki
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
if you want this kind of effect, you would be better off with outpost siege.
No, I still agree that the card is underwhelming.
I kind of think that it's best with infinite red mana (barirng mono-C, what deck isn't?), but again, it can function extremely well without that boost. Nonetheless it's absolutely worth inclusion - I stand by my assessment (though I'm open to opinions and a change or heart if it's truly THAT bad).
~Lil Kalki
EDIT: Just played a 3-man game (vs. Adamaro, First to Desire and Ramos superfriends) with the goal of making this work. Not only did it work - and thankfully I actually had a max hand size of 7 at EOT because Adamaro player would've played Gaze of Adamaro and dealt 41 or so to me after I drew 34 cards for nothing - but it got me my combo pieces for Kiki/Conscripts and won it for me by association. It truly is that good.
Proud Disciple of the Church of the Wary
make sure no one is running pithing needle effects though.
osieorb18!
I built a Norin deck some five years ago heavily inspired by Gaka’s list. After a couple years of no EDH, I have a local group again and I’m looking to rebuild and retune. Your list is one of the most interesting takes I’ve seen. Any updates on changes you’ve made in the last year since you posted? I need ALL the ideas!
First off, I'm glad you liked my build! Thanks for seeking me out. Unfortunately, I haven't been playing a whole lot of Magic recently, but looking back at semi-recent sets in terms of this decklist:
Battlebond - Stolen Strategy is too costly for what it is. I don't like this set for Norin.
Nothing worthwhile in the Global Series.
M19 - Apex of Power is too costly to be worth it. Dark-Dweller Oracle is really dang good. The Goblin Trashmaster is useful only in the Goblin build.
C18 - Enchanter's Bane seems nifty, but is too niche and not effective enough. Loyal Apprentice is solid, though a little nombo-y with Norin himself. Still need to pick one up. Not too bad; you can just cast your spells after combat. Treasure Nabber is amazing. Saheeli's Directive is... Not quite worth it, IMO. Maybe for a Wishboard, though.
Guilds of Ravnica - Experimental Frenzy is too costly given its limitations.
1 Dark-Dweller Oracle
1 Duplicant
1 Feldon of the Third Path
1 Goblin Welder
1 Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
1 Grinning Ignus
1 Hellrider
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Iron Myr
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Magus of the Wheel
1 Manic Vandal
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Ogre Battledriver
1 Pia and Kirin Nalaar
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Smuggler's Copter
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Squee, the Immortal
1 Treasure Nabber
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Gauntlet of Might
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Genesis Chamber
1 Helm of Possession
1 Honor-Worn Shaku
1 Inspiring Statuary
1 Mana Crypt
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind Stone
1 Mox Amber
1 Panharmonicon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Springleaf Drum
1 Tangle Wire
1 Trading Post
1 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Flameshadow Conjuring
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Impact Tremors
1 Possibility Storm
1 Raid Bombardment
1 Shifting Shadow
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Karn Liberated
1 Chaos Warp
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Burning Wish
1 Faithless Looting
1 Gamble
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tempt with Vengeance
1 Vandalblast
1 Wheel of Fate
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flamekin Village
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 High Market
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Kher Keep
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Scrying Sheets
16 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Apocalypse
1 Chain Reaction
1 Hellion Eruption
1 Incendiary Command
1 Indomitable Creativity
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Pillage
1 Release the Gremlins
1 Warp World
Some comments:
Artifacts are at 2.5 average cmc. Not too bad, all things considered. I like Inspiring Statuary but want to see it really flex in casting a terrifying turn. Always have a love-hate with Helm of Possession, but keeping at least 3 cards to deal with the anti-Spirit-of-EDH card Iona, Shield of Emeria (Seriously, the fact that this card isn't banned is one of the biggest problems with the banlist ever, but that's a discussion for another time and place.) is critical, and Tawnos's Coffin just isn't the same for this deck. I want another artifact that makes me go "OOH" regardless of CMC. Mox Amber did a good job at that. Maybe something in the next Ravnica set will catch my eye, but I'm not holding my breath. The artifacts I would consider cutting at the moment are Panharmonicon, Memory Jar, Inspiring Statuary, Tangle Wire, and Trading Post. That said, none of those are particularly close to the chopping block.
Enchantments are at 3.375 average cmc. I expect this to be high. Shifting Shadow will probably get replaced at some point. Flameshadow Conjuring has been nifty, especially with some clever abuses of the Legend Rule. Possibility Storm has been a defining staple. I ALSO STILL NEED A DAMN Curse of Opulence...
Planeswalkers (I'm not taking an average on low-single-digits)... Daretti is still as solid as always. Karn is necessary Iona removal and a great card on his own. With the other Karn possibly coming in, we'll see where this goes.
Chaos Warp is so amazing. I need to get another instant for Possibility Storm, which will be a PAIN IN THE BUTT based on how deck sculpting has gone in the past few years.
Sorceries are at 2.78 average CMC. I like all of them where they are at the moment. I think Dukes of Hazzard is still the best wrath choice, and Tempt with Vengeance is still the best token producer for the moment.
With 34 lands, only 16 of which are mountains, I'm thinking I might want to increase by 1. It's not happening soon, though. Flamekin Village is pretty meh. That at least may be replaced. I find it kinda amusing that I'm nearing the point where Humans and Goblins are both legit creature types for Cavern of Souls.
Wishboard-wise, I'm not thrilled by Hellion Eruption or by Incendiary Command, but they aren't awful. I think I want 1 different X spell as well, but we shall see. Aftershock, Apocalypse, Chain Reaction, Mogg Infestation, Pillage, and Warp World are all staying right where they are. Release the Gremlins will probably stay but may move to mainboard depending on how I feel about it.
As always, suggestions are welcome from anyone, though my answer may be "I tried that," "I wasn't very impressed," "It's too costly," or "It doesn't fit in this build."
Ehh.
It's very much up to interpretation. If the pop cost was 1R or less, even with a creature sac, I'd be warmer to it. As is, it's okay, but I think the restrictions are just slightly too much for the cost for me at least. Then again, I'm also not running Outpost Siege for similar reasons.
Looking at your decklist, I would never cut Chaos Warp from the deck. I'd be interested in hearing how well Combustible Gearhulk has played for you. Path of Ancestry seems barely worth it if at all. I can see the landbase is budget though, so I'm not going to focus too hard there. I'm guessing that some of your card choices are meta-based, too. I'm still VERY unconvinced that Invader Parasite, Mindclaw Shaman, Sunbird's Invocation or Vicious Shadows are actually worth the cost.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I will go over your list carefully while considering changes to mine. A few follow-up questions!
No opinion on Goblin Cratermaker in your GRN impressions?
What do you think of Warping Wail? I am considering it mostly as “Counter target giant dumb wincon,” but all three of its modes have other utility uses and your list has 16 C sources.
No haste on Magus of the Wheel is fine. Who’s blowing their removal on this guy? Occasionally he may eat a wrath necessitated by someone else’s board, but I bet it rarely comes up. I assume you hate it when you draw him with a small hand and have to wait a turn?
I was pondering it. I think it's borderline. Definitely playable in the Goblin builds.
The mana ability is ehh. The exile is... okay. The sorcery use is the best but isn't exciting enough to sell it for me.
I haven't seen a ton of him, but similar cards eat removal left and right.
can be used on any permanent, as the color check is on resolution only (so any target is legal).
My consideration list:
1 Pyroblast
1 Warping Wail
1 Scour from Existence
None of these fill me with huge confidence, though. The two red ones come closest.
Electrodominance is just great letting you play everything at instant speed!
Edit: You can play Wheel of Fate at instant speed with it