I am building a similar Norin deck to mess with people at the store I play at and would like to suggest Arcbound Reclaimer. It helps if people destroy your genesis chamber or other useful artifacts and does silly things when the Curio is out.
Smokestack does not seem like a terrible card at all in your list. I'm not sure how it would be if you don't have tokens swarming up is the thing.
Maybe Ensaring Bridge? since most of your guys are small? meh?
Shunt? I've mentioned this card before but Fork effects are one of the if not THE most powerful things red has so having another, even if it is slightly worse against most spells, but better against a few could be put to use.
Godo
Smoke - Tried once, then as i started pushing the token aspect it was realized that the card hurt me more than it hurt others. Barring those who also swarm with tokens, most decks didn't care that they could only untap one creature.
Smokestack - Dismissed only because if i dont have genesis chamber or a token producer out it hurts me more than it does opponents.
Shunt - I use the fork spells in a different manner than i expect some do. I've seen many save them for the bombs, or to do scary things with targeted LD. You know you love Stone Rain + Radiate.
Godo - I dont really see a need for a 6 cmc tutor to get skullclamp, even if the clamp is my best draw engine. Now, if only KikiJiki was an equipment...
It usually isn't the larger things that cause problems, but the slow beats by one or two evasive creatures or possibly swarms of midgets. In the environment I play Meekstone wouldn't help in the slightest.
I am building a similar Norin deck to mess with people at the store I play at and would like to suggest Arcbound Reclaimer. It helps if people destroy your genesis chamber or other useful artifacts and does silly things when the Curio is out.
At the moment, I dont see a need for more than the Welder. If the need ever arises for more, this will certainly be near the top of the list.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Time to bust out a paper version of my very similar Norin deck tomorrow!....I'm excited for screaming and groans at the tables I play at!
Edit: Do you think it would be frowned upon to throw a Steam Vines onto the table in a 4-5 player game?
I don't see why it would be frowned upon (especially compared to the other stuff in this deck). You're playing a deck that is going to make people angry, I can only imagine it going like this:
You put Steam Vines one someone's land.
They have to sac their land, they put the vines on your land.
You sac your land, you give the vines to someone else.
They have to sac their land, they put the vines on your land.
Etc.
In this scenario, at best you can trade land for land with one other person. At worst you're trading 4-5 of your own lands for one of each other person's lands. It could be alright if you can convince everyone else that they need to gang up on some other guy though, but you're the one packing the griefer deck.
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Decks:
Legacy BGW Rock Depths
EDH B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker RG Stangg WU Isperia the Inscrutable WUB Dakkon Blackblade WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain RWU Ruhan of the Fomori WUBRG Sliver Overlord
What are people's thoughts on Druidic Satchel? It's pseudo ramp and triggers a bunch of stuff with the token making capability for 2 colorless a turn. Seems worth a slot.
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Vintage Workshops
Legacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
No scrambleverse. You pretty much randomly decide who wins the game. No way. Norin likes his control.
It can always be added to make things more chaos-y. But that being said, I wouldn't run it either (it's cost is definitely not helping). Strangely enough, Norin is a control deck, and a good one at that.
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
Strangely enough, Norin is a control deck, and a good one at that.
Dropping a turn three ruination then tangle wire-ing the entire table (5 player game) last night was hilarious. The only problem I've run into is not being able to win the game once you hav ethe game locked down. I was sitting behind a grip of chaos/imulsive maneuvers/genesis chamber wall but my Krark's thumb was removed and I had no way to win...eventually killed myself when I activated my siege gang commander 11 times in one turn...oops.
Might I suggest also posting more budget suggestions for the deck? Like maybe Thran Dynamo and stuff. Also have you considered maybe Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Draws and brings your grave back on a fatty stick.
What are people's thoughts on Druidic Satchel? It's pseudo ramp and triggers a bunch of stuff with the token making capability for 2 colorless a turn. Seems worth a slot.
An interesting suggestion, but I don't think it really does anything the deck wants. Just because it can make tokens doesnt mean it deserves a slot.
Wow this deck looks like a ton of fun! A Scrambleverse is in order perhaps?
I thought this at first too, but when i realized it doesnt actually contribute to winning or controlling the board, it was dismissed. If you want this effect but in a way that can put you in front more easily - go for Theive's Auction.
Goblin Recruiter made it into my deck. So good, especially with our strong Goblin package.
For some reason I can't really explain, i've always had a distaste for sorcery speed to-the-top tutors. I think it has partially do to the fact that board positions can change so rapidly that if I tutor for an answer but it's solved by the time i get it, i feel as though i have a dead card in hand for a few turns. If i am tutoring for a way to win, if the board position changes so that i cannot actually win during that turn or the next, i once again feel like i've wasted a turn on a dead draw. But if you're not paranoid like me, i can defenitely see him in the deck. I've been trying to pursuade myself he's worth the slot (he probably is)
Dropping a turn three ruination then tangle wire-ing the entire table (5 player game) last night was hilarious. The only problem I've run into is not being able to win the game once you hav ethe game locked down. I was sitting behind a grip of chaos/imulsive maneuvers/genesis chamber wall but my Krark's thumb was removed and I had no way to win...eventually killed myself when I activated my siege gang commander 11 times in one turn...oops.
The win-cons for this deck are either untutorable or slow kills. Which kind of sucks, but that's mono red for you. Maybe Wizard's can fix this problem sometime soon...
Might I suggest also posting more budget suggestions for the deck? Like maybe Thran Dynamo and stuff. Also have you considered maybe Kozilek, Butcher of Truth? Draws and brings your grave back on a fatty stick.
Budget - sure, i can do that.
Kozilek - eh. I dont really see a need to have a bribery target in the deck that will completely decimate me or have a giant fatty that costs more than Norin's Mother.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
An interesting suggestion, but I don't think it really does anything the deck wants. Just because it can make tokens doesnt mean it deserves a slot.
I think the suggestion was because it is quasi card draw and mana acceleration. I don't think that it is needed in the deck...but I thought you might have missed the intent.
I think the suggestion was because it is quasi card draw and mana acceleration. I don't think that it is needed in the deck...but I thought you might have missed the intent.
Well, just looking at the abilities:
1. Token.
My opponent now knows my draw, i get a skullclamp target. (Even if done end-step like it should)
2. Ramp
I get a land and go one deeper into the deck, best outcome.
3. Lifegain
My opponent now knows my draw, i get worthless life.
It really doesnt do anything i want except for the random ramping.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Krark's Thumb has served me well, but it's time to go. Hoarding Dragon has been terrible lately, and Impulsive Maneuvers doesnt cut it anymore. In come the new toys and pretty much auto-includes of Chaos Warp, Strangehold, and Warstorm Surge! And some ramp.
Murder! Death! Kill!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
No suggestions, but I wanted to chime in with more praise for Gaka/endorse the deck for people wondering if Norin is for them (it is). I've built a paper version of Norin (some meta-based tweaks) that has been an absolute blast to play. In a game I played last night, I got Vicious Shadows out, so everyone was being cautious on their turns, and my opponent passes to me, and... Puppet's Verdict, Fork'd, with Krark's Thumb on the table! Surprise! I win!
I really enjoy the paradoxical combination of high power level with play variability. Most decks win by consistency, and I love how Norin can pull out a victory a different way each game. So cheers for sharing Gaka, it's really inspired deckbuilding.
I really enjoy the paradoxical combination of high power level with play variability. Most decks with by consistency, and I love how Norin can pull out a victory a different way each game. So cheers for sharing Gaka, it's really inspired deckbuilding.
Echoing Red Mages everywhere - "Who needs consistency when you can launch nukes?"
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Without Krark's Thumb, is Planar Chaos still worth it?
Defenitely. Truthfully, most of the time I actually did cast Planar Chaos i didn't have a thumb in sight, but it still did what i wanted. It's best used late-game after dropping a couple gobbos and following up with this for protection. Folks who want to live will do their best to take out your forces, while this gives a nice bit of "screw you" to the mix.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I want to build this, but I would do it in MODO so all the flipping/randomness would be taken care of. I have a small bladder and THINKING of trying to resolve all the triggers makes me already have to tinkle.
Some people are just plain douchebags so you have to fight them with douchebaggyness back.
Also, the new land (Buried Ruin) could fit in right in this deck for some artifact recursion.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Smoke - Tried once, then as i started pushing the token aspect it was realized that the card hurt me more than it hurt others. Barring those who also swarm with tokens, most decks didn't care that they could only untap one creature.
Smokestack - Dismissed only because if i dont have genesis chamber or a token producer out it hurts me more than it does opponents.
Ensnaring Bridge - Good idea, possible.
Shunt - I use the fork spells in a different manner than i expect some do. I've seen many save them for the bombs, or to do scary things with targeted LD. You know you love Stone Rain + Radiate.
Godo - I dont really see a need for a 6 cmc tutor to get skullclamp, even if the clamp is my best draw engine. Now, if only KikiJiki was an equipment...
It usually isn't the larger things that cause problems, but the slow beats by one or two evasive creatures or possibly swarms of midgets. In the environment I play Meekstone wouldn't help in the slightest.
I refuse to use any infinite combos in Norin unless they're funny or difficult to put together. I also don't really need them.
This deck is douchey. Just ask anyone who's seen the table locked on turn 5.
Buried Ruin is a possibility, but i'd only go for it if i added Crucible again... which i might.
At the moment, I dont see a need for more than the Welder. If the need ever arises for more, this will certainly be near the top of the list.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Edit: Do you think it would be frowned upon to throw a Steam Vines onto the table in a 4-5 player game?
I don't see why it would be frowned upon (especially compared to the other stuff in this deck). You're playing a deck that is going to make people angry, I can only imagine it going like this:
You put Steam Vines one someone's land.
They have to sac their land, they put the vines on your land.
You sac your land, you give the vines to someone else.
They have to sac their land, they put the vines on your land.
Etc.
In this scenario, at best you can trade land for land with one other person. At worst you're trading 4-5 of your own lands for one of each other person's lands. It could be alright if you can convince everyone else that they need to gang up on some other guy though, but you're the one packing the griefer deck.
Legacy
BGW Rock Depths
EDH
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
R Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
RG Stangg
WU Isperia the Inscrutable
WUB Dakkon Blackblade
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls
BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain
RWU Ruhan of the Fomori
WUBRG Sliver Overlord
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
It can always be added to make things more chaos-y. But that being said, I wouldn't run it either (it's cost is definitely not helping). Strangely enough, Norin is a control deck, and a good one at that.
Dropping a turn three ruination then tangle wire-ing the entire table (5 player game) last night was hilarious. The only problem I've run into is not being able to win the game once you hav ethe game locked down. I was sitting behind a grip of chaos/imulsive maneuvers/genesis chamber wall but my Krark's thumb was removed and I had no way to win...eventually killed myself when I activated my siege gang commander 11 times in one turn...oops.
An interesting suggestion, but I don't think it really does anything the deck wants. Just because it can make tokens doesnt mean it deserves a slot.
I thought this at first too, but when i realized it doesnt actually contribute to winning or controlling the board, it was dismissed. If you want this effect but in a way that can put you in front more easily - go for Theive's Auction.
For some reason I can't really explain, i've always had a distaste for sorcery speed to-the-top tutors. I think it has partially do to the fact that board positions can change so rapidly that if I tutor for an answer but it's solved by the time i get it, i feel as though i have a dead card in hand for a few turns. If i am tutoring for a way to win, if the board position changes so that i cannot actually win during that turn or the next, i once again feel like i've wasted a turn on a dead draw. But if you're not paranoid like me, i can defenitely see him in the deck. I've been trying to pursuade myself he's worth the slot (he probably is)
The win-cons for this deck are either untutorable or slow kills. Which kind of sucks, but that's mono red for you. Maybe Wizard's can fix this problem sometime soon...
Vicious Shadows is by far my favorite way to win.
You can, alternatively, just lock the board and force concessions. Did i mentioni love playing against 5c decks with no basics?
Budget - sure, i can do that.
Kozilek - eh. I dont really see a need to have a bribery target in the deck that will completely decimate me or have a giant fatty that costs more than Norin's Mother.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
[EDH] Ob Nixilis the Fallen
Well, just looking at the abilities:
1. Token.
My opponent now knows my draw, i get a skullclamp target. (Even if done end-step like it should)
2. Ramp
I get a land and go one deeper into the deck, best outcome.
3. Lifegain
My opponent now knows my draw, i get worthless life.
It really doesnt do anything i want except for the random ramping.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
+ Chaos Warp
+ Stranglehold
+ Warstorm Surge
+ Gilded Lotus
- Impulsive Maneuvers
- Hoarding Dragon
- Krark's Thumb
- Mox Opal
Krark's Thumb has served me well, but it's time to go. Hoarding Dragon has been terrible lately, and Impulsive Maneuvers doesnt cut it anymore. In come the new toys and pretty much auto-includes of Chaos Warp, Strangehold, and Warstorm Surge! And some ramp.
Murder! Death! Kill!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Scry! (rollover popups)
Modern: W Soul Sisters (WIP), GW Melira Pod (WIP)
Current EDH:
G Ezuri's Renegade Elves (thread)
BGW Ghave's Legion (thread)
WUB Sharuum, Artifact Savant
I really enjoy the paradoxical combination of high power level with play variability. Most decks win by consistency, and I love how Norin can pull out a victory a different way each game. So cheers for sharing Gaka, it's really inspired deckbuilding.
Echoing Red Mages everywhere - "Who needs consistency when you can launch nukes?"
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Defenitely. Truthfully, most of the time I actually did cast Planar Chaos i didn't have a thumb in sight, but it still did what i wanted. It's best used late-game after dropping a couple gobbos and following up with this for protection. Folks who want to live will do their best to take out your forces, while this gives a nice bit of "screw you" to the mix.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Thanks to syndarion of Aeternal Studios for the awesome Sig.
Standard: MWLC All-InFect Illusion Control(MTGO)
EDH(MODO): :symg::symu::symb:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb: 6-2-0 in 4player