Played 4 games yesterday with Azusa vs Zur, Jhoira, and Mayael. First game I had a fantastic start. Turn 1: Forest, Exploration, Forest, Mana Crypt, Azusa, Mikokoro, Ancient Tomb, Crucible of Worlds. Needless to say I won. Mikokoro was actually useful in getting to cards I needed. I definately ran out of gas in all 4 games but still managed to take 2 of them. The other game I won, Zur played Bribery on Mayael putting in Iona and naming Green turn 4. That shut me down for 3 turns. I had a great board with Azusa, Oracle, Lotus Cobra, and Crucible of Worlds. Jhoira focused on Zur with his Ulamog and crippled him. I got to an Eye of Ugin and tutored for and played Ulamog, then proceeded to finish the game against weakened opponents with Craterhoof. I like the all-in approach. But will need to add some gas
Played a few games over the last week. Got Gaea's Touch a few times but we don't have enough basic forests to make it worth running in my opinion. Replacing it with Seer's Sundial. Garruk Wildspeaker appears to be an improvement over Garruk, Primal Hunter. The extra mana has been more important than the conditional draw or 3/3 token. Fauna Shaman hasn't done much, but I'll keep it in for more testing. Exploration appears to be solid. It ramps us out early and later on we'll have Oracle online to play more lands
Played a few games over the last week. Got Gaea's Touch a few times but we don't have enough basic forests to make it worth running in my opinion. Replacing it with Seer's Sundial. Garruk Wildspeaker appears to be an improvement over Garruk, Primal Hunter. The extra mana has been more important than the conditional draw or 3/3 token. Fauna Shaman hasn't done much, but I'll keep it in for more testing. Exploration appears to be solid. It ramps us out early and later on we'll have Oracle online to play more lands
I like running both Garruks. I watched by GF win with 26 Wurm tokens last Sunday that somehow got by as we used our resources fighting off another player that academy rectored into Omniscience and dropped a few strong cards. Primal Hunter is much stronger, but the ramp from wildspeaker is also great, especially untapping utility lands or cradle.
Seer's Sundial is some of the weaker draw we run, but its still draw. You'll be underwhelmed, but it works.
For this deck, Fauna Shaman just doesn't have the speed and versatility we need compared to Survival.
Exploration is a card I've never been a fan of in Azusa. To run exploration well here, you need more lands and then more draw to get those lands somewhat warping the deck around it. I've always liked exploration better in UGx decks where you always have a stash of lands in hand from the draw and nothing better to do with them other than discard them. In a deck like Edric or Damia, they can play exploration turn 1 and get 2 land drops every turn till its destroyed. Here however I've had very few games where I had the draw to support 4 lands per turn and If I did, it got destroyed post haste. If I only get 2-3 lands off exploration and run out of gas, I'd rather see something else that has more overall impact.
I like running both Garruks. I watched by GF win with 26 Wurm tokens last Sunday that somehow got by as we used our resources fighting off another player that academy rectored into Omniscience and dropped a few strong cards. Primal Hunter is much stronger, but the ramp from wildspeaker is also great, especially untapping utility lands or cradle.
Seer's Sundial is some of the weaker draw we run, but its still draw. You'll be underwhelmed, but it works.
For this deck, Fauna Shaman just doesn't have the speed and versatility we need compared to Survival.
Exploration is a card I've never been a fan of in Azusa. To run exploration well here, you need more lands and then more draw to get those lands somewhat warping the deck around it. I've always liked exploration better in UGx decks where you always have a stash of lands in hand from the draw and nothing better to do with them other than discard them. In a deck like Edric or Damia, they can play exploration turn 1 and get 2 land drops every turn till its destroyed. Here however I've had very few games where I had the draw to support 4 lands per turn and If I did, it got destroyed post haste. If I only get 2-3 lands off exploration and run out of gas, I'd rather see something else that has more overall impact.
I've never gotten more than 18 lands out with this list...our games usually finish around turn 8-10 when there are one or fewer blue players.
I thought about playing Garruk Primal Hunter with Garruk Wildspeaker but decided against it. Wildspeaker comes out earlier and we can usually do something else that same turn. My opponents have a tendency to hurt themselves and Garruk's Overrun ability is actually a lethal threat. Primal Hunter hinges on getting a big body into play before it is played so as to get value. I don't miss it at all.
Seer's Sundial keeps going in and out as I look for something better. Sadly there is nothing I've found that works better.
Fauna Shaman will get us there but as I never tutor for him and the table usually kills him on sight, it hasn't done much
What do you do when your turn 3 Azusa is countered? A counterspell on our first casting of Azusa is particularly painful because it neutralizes any quick start. Exploration provides a safety valve. Azusa gets a lot of hate while Exploration barely attracts any notice at all. From a card advantage perspective I agree with you; Exploration sucks, but the way Azusa attracts hate we've got to carry alternatives.
I run some of these, and I'm rarely in need of cards. My only concern is you might have to drastically restructure your deck, but at the least, you should try out some of the cyclers along with Kozilek, who you can easily find repeatedly via a land tutor into Eye of Ugin.
I run some of these, and I'm rarely in need of cards. My only concern is you might have to drastically restructure your deck, but at the least, you should try out some of the cyclers along with Kozilek, who you can easily find repeatedly via a land tutor into Eye of Ugin.
The only requirement I have for draw is we get the card immediately and without too many preconditions. The Sundial is costly and a mana sink but it gets us a card now. Collective Unconscious looks like it could do something nice with token generators, but the other cards aren't what I'm looking for. Mind's Eye and Garruk Primal Hunter are close but a little behind the Sundial in my eyes
The only requirement I have for draw is we get the card immediately and without too many preconditions. The Sundial is costly and a mana sink but it gets us a card now. Collective Unconscious looks like it could do something nice with token generators, but the other cards aren't what I'm looking for. Mind's Eye and Garruk Primal Hunter are close but a little behind the Sundial in my eyes
Also, the cycling lands create a draw engine when combined with Life from the Loam, and you can get a few free cards off of them with Crucible of Worlds and the aforementioned mass regrowths.
The only requirement I have for draw is we get the card immediately and without too many preconditions. The Sundial is costly and a mana sink but it gets us a card now. Collective Unconscious looks like it could do something nice with token generators, but the other cards aren't what I'm looking for. Mind's Eye and Garruk Primal Hunter are close but a little behind the Sundial in my eyes
In performance, Mind's Eye is MUCH better than Seer's Sundial IMO. With Azusa we should almost always have the mana to draw as well.
Also, the cycling lands create a draw engine when combined with Life from the Loam, and you can get a few free cards off of them with Crucible of Worlds and the aforementioned mass regrowths.
5-6 mana per card is too high a price to pay. The way this list is built, creatures in play are valued more highly than ones in the graveyard. Sylvan Ranger, Wall of Blossoms, Gatekeeper Vine, and Elvish Visionary are fantastic.
The cycling lands aren't good unless we have Life from the Loam in hand with 2 cycling lands. Even then we are paying 5-6 mana for 2 cards. That's too conditional and not attractive cost-wise. I think Collective Unconscious will be more useful as a spell version of Regal Force. Avenger into play, tap Cradle to cast Collective Unconscious, boom. Or with at least 3 creatures in play a 2:1 mana to card ratio is acceptable.
In regards to Regrowth type cards I'm not sure what the optimal number to run is. Between Eternal Witness, Regrowth, and Revive I've been quite happy but maybe one or two more would be expedient. The thing is when an Eldrazi hits the graveyard they become dead cards.
@jmdt: Mind's Eye is superior to the Sundial on an empty board but the list has more synergies (Stone-Seeder Hierophant, Lotus Cobra) with the Sundial and being able to draw on your turn while still being able to play cards can be the difference between winning a game and losing it.
You're paying an upfront 6 mana with an added condition just to get your first card from Seer's Sundial, and then it continues to cost you mana and isn't even reliable if you've already thinned your deck of lots of lands.
The thing I like most about the Cyclers is that you can usually Cycle them on turn 2 when you'd otherwise be doing nothing, or else you can easily find 2 mana to Cycle something at instant speed later. I know it doesn't sound that great in theory, but in practice, it's like getting free cards. Being able to get an occasional extra free card off of something like Life from the Loam is just gravy.
You're paying an upfront 6 mana with an added condition just to get your first card from Seer's Sundial, and then it continues to cost you mana and isn't even reliable if you've already thinned your deck of lots of lands.
The thing I like most about the Cyclers is that you can usually Cycle them on turn 2 when you'd otherwise be doing nothing, or else you can easily find 2 mana to Cycle something at instant speed later. I know it doesn't sound that great in theory, but in practice, it's like getting free cards. Being able to get an occasional extra free card off of something like Life from the Loam is just gravy.
I'll give Hermit Druid a shot again. He feels right in the 2cc slot. I included him briefly in the list but never saw him in a game before axing him
In regards to the cyclers I have tried the cycling lands and they were not to my liking. The optimal play at 2 mana is to play a body or Sylvan Library. The second best play is a tutor. Cycling is our third choice. The main problem I have with the cyclers is we pay 2 mana to replace a card in our hand while gaining no true card advantage or body in play, until we get to Life from the Loam or Crucible.
Yes i know the limitations on Seer's Sundial. The up front cost is hideous. However I carry 50 lands and hitting one should be 50% after its played. 2 mana per card is palatable when we can tap the land being played for 1. The greatest problem with the Sundial is the turn we play it we are unable to take full advantage of the cards drawn while in the early game. And if we are not holding a land in hand it may not do a thing. However when we get going we can draw an insane number of cards mid-late game with Scapeshift, Primordial, Thawing Glaciers + Stone-Seeder, Fetch + Crucible of Worlds
I'll give Hermit Druid a shot again. He feels right in the 2cc slot. I included him briefly in the list but never saw him in a game before axing him
In regards to the cyclers I have tried the cycling lands and they were not to my liking. The optimal play at 2 mana is to play a body or Sylvan Library. The second best play is a tutor. Cycling is our third choice. The main problem I have with the cyclers is we pay 2 mana to replace a card in our hand while gaining no true card advantage or body in play, until we get to Life from the Loam or Crucible.
Yes i know the limitations on Seer's Sundial. The up front cost is hideous. However I carry 50 lands and hitting one should be 50% after its played. 2 mana per card is palatable when we can tap the land being played for 1. The greatest problem with the Sundial is the turn we play it we are unable to take full advantage of the cards drawn while in the early game. And if we are not holding a land in hand it may not do a thing. However when we get going we can draw an insane number of cards mid-late game with Scapeshift, Primordial, Thawing Glaciers + Stone-Seeder, Fetch + Crucible of Worlds
Even after mulling I got a crappy hand tonight, but I was able to squeak out a slow win on the back of draw off of Seer's Sundial. I was stalled at 4 lands with more expensive guys in hand, but sundial gave me the gas to get established, draw into Horn of greed, and I ended with like 16 lands out when I for the 2nd time in two games won off of ultimating Mr. Primal Hunter after Boundless realms was countered while my Rampaging Baloths was out out. Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
Even after mulling I got a crappy hand tonight, but I was able to squeak out a slow win on the back of draw off of Seer's Sundial. I was stalled at 4 lands with more expensive guys in hand, but sundial gave me the gas to get established, draw into Horn of greed, and I ended with like 16 lands out when I for the 2nd time in two games won off of ultimating Mr. Primal Hunter after Boundless realms was countered while my Rampaging Baloths was out out. Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
I've never in my life gotten Garruk Primal Hunter's ultimate off. If Sundial isn't addressed it'll just go bonkers late game. I took a peek at your mana curve and it is really, really weighted down at the high end. Have you ever considered taking a butcher's knife and cutting the fat out of it? Whenever I see an opening hand with anything over 6cc I frown unhappily
Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
Are you sure any old draw engine wouldn't have sufficed?
My problem with Seer's Sundial is the math. Even if you're putting 50 lands into your deck, by the time you can start to use Sundial without slowing yourself down too much, you probably have about 40 lands left in your deck. In this situation, each time you draw a card, you have a 40% chance of being able to pay 2 for another card. Mathematically, this is worse than getting a single new card each turn, even when you factor in the unlikely chance that you can draw a chain of cards in a single turn. I'll admit that if you're running cards that put many lands into your hand, Sundial gets better, but even then, only marginally so. Even worse, there are cards that offer that, plus they cost less mana, plus they have added benefits.
Staff of Nin is free to use once you play it, and it allows you to remove utility guys and chump blockers.
Ohran Viper is a lot cheaper, comes down earlier, and is an excellent blocker.
Hystrodon is cheaper, has a decent body, and is reliable because it has Trample.
Drumhunter is cheap, accelerates your mana, and is reliable if you run enough large creatures.
In addition, all of the creatures above can be easily tutored for, and I haven't even gotten into burst draw. Just because Sundial is decent doesn't mean it's the best option. Its main advantage over most of the above is that it doesn't get caught up in a board wipe, but there's still Staff of Nin plus all of the available burst draw to get around that.
Are you sure any old draw engine wouldn't have sufficed?
My problem with Seer's Sundial is the math. Even if you're putting 50 lands into your deck, by the time you can start to use Sundial without slowing yourself down too much, you probably have about 40 lands left in your deck. In this situation, each time you draw a card, you have a 40% chance of being able to pay 2 for another card. Mathematically, this is worse than getting a single new card each turn, even when you factor in the unlikely chance that you can draw a chain of cards in a single turn. I'll admit that if you're running cards that put many lands into your hand, Sundial gets better, but even then, only marginally so. Even worse, there are cards that offer that, plus they cost less mana, plus they have added benefits.
Staff of Nin is free to use once you play it, and it allows you to remove utility guys and chump blockers.
Ohran Viper is a lot cheaper, comes down earlier, and is an excellent blocker.
Hystrodon is cheaper, has a decent body, and is reliable because it has Trample.
Drumhunter is cheap, accelerates your mana, and is reliable if you run enough large creatures.
In addition, all of the creatures above can be easily tutored for, and I haven't even gotten into burst draw. Just because Sundial is decent doesn't mean it's the best option. Its main advantage over most of the above is that it doesn't get caught up in a board wipe, but there's still Staff of Nin plus all of the available burst draw to get around that.
I would evaluate all of your listed cards as inferior to the Sundial. None of them can put a card into our hands the turn we play it. The main benefit of the Sundial is we get the extra card on our turn. And we can get multiple cards if our mana permits and we have landfall triggers. I feel 40% is slightly low, 45% is probably closer to the odds of hitting a land after we hit 10 land in play. Getting cards NOW is really important. Delays are gamebreakers. I overcame 6 billion squirrel tokens thanks to the Sundial once. None of those options listed would have done so, and all of them except the Staff are conditional draws
I would evaluate all of your listed cards as inferior to the Sundial. None of them can put a card into our hands the turn we play it. The main benefit of the Sundial is we get the extra card on our turn. And we can get multiple cards if our mana permits and we have landfall triggers. I feel 40% is slightly low, 45% is probably closer to the odds of hitting a land after we hit 10 land in play. Getting cards NOW is really important. Delays are gamebreakers. I overcame 6 billion squirrel tokens thanks to the Sundial once. None of those options listed would have done so, and all of them except the Staff are conditional draws
You can't really complain about them being conditional since Sundial is too. Also, if you want to get a draw the turn you play it, you have to pay six mana up front, and then still have mana to cast whatever you drew. Otherwise, it's not much better than just waiting a turn for your card.
You can't really complain about them being conditional since Sundial is too. Also, if you want to get a draw the turn you play it, you have to pay six mana up front, and then still have mana to cast whatever you drew. Otherwise, it's not much better than just waiting a turn for your card.
My 0.02: Memory Jar is stellar in a meta without reanimators otherwise you'd help your opponent(s) too much. Primal Hunter is too conditional as a draw outlet -- a Harmonize is so much better.
Virtually all my opponents run black for its tutors. As well as Reanimate and Animate Dead. If Memory Jar is not going to win us the game, its going to win the game for one of our opponents. Until wizards prints something better I think we're stuck with Seer's Sundial
Are you sure any old draw engine wouldn't have sufficed?
My problem with Seer's Sundial is the math. Even if you're putting 50 lands into your deck, by the time you can start to use Sundial without slowing yourself down too much, you probably have about 40 lands left in your deck. In this situation, each time you draw a card, you have a 40% chance of being able to pay 2 for another card. Mathematically, this is worse than getting a single new card each turn, even when you factor in the unlikely chance that you can draw a chain of cards in a single turn. I'll admit that if you're running cards that put many lands into your hand, Sundial gets better, but even then, only marginally so. Even worse, there are cards that offer that, plus they cost less mana, plus they have added benefits.
Staff of Nin is free to use once you play it, and it allows you to remove utility guys and chump blockers.
Ohran Viper is a lot cheaper, comes down earlier, and is an excellent blocker.
Hystrodon is cheaper, has a decent body, and is reliable because it has Trample.
Drumhunter is cheap, accelerates your mana, and is reliable if you run enough large creatures.
In addition, all of the creatures above can be easily tutored for, and I haven't even gotten into burst draw. Just because Sundial is decent doesn't mean it's the best option. Its main advantage over most of the above is that it doesn't get caught up in a board wipe, but there's still Staff of Nin plus all of the available burst draw to get around that.
Hystrodon and Ohran Viper rely on what your opponent is doing to draw cards. I never like cards that rely on what's going on with my opponent's side unless they are game breaking. Staff of Nin gives only 1 draw per turn, starting next turn. Magus of the Library requires 7 cards in hand, which doesn't happen for me all too often. Drumhunter only situationaly draws a card, and only on the next turn.
Seer's Sundial has the big benefits in that it fires the turn we play it (if we have the mana to do so) and we can use it multiple times per turn (which I do). Its way down the list, but as Swift says, its the best we have.
Memory Jar in a mono green deck is a BIG nono if you can't win the turn you play it, and 9 time out of 10, we won't.
Played 2 games Thurs against Zur and Teneb. First game I had a great start which was nullified by a Cataclysm. I ran out of gas turn 3 - couldn't hit a draw or tutor. Zur went on to combo out. In the second game I had another excellent start, but this time Eye of Ugin broke the stalemate for me turn 6 or so. Tutored for Kozilek played him with haste and effectively knocked out Zur. One of the 4 cards I drew was Tooth and Nail. Made Inkmoth a creature, casted Tooth and Nail for Avenger + Craterhoof, and finished off Teneb. Killed Zur the next turn.
I'm kind of on the fence with Hermit Druid. He does get us a land into our hands but I see 2 drawbacks with him. He necessitates additional support cards, particularly graveyard interaction like Revive, Life from the Loam, Petrified Field, Haunted Fengraf, and maybe Creeping Renaissance. Those are slots we don't have. Second drawback is virtually every deck I play against runs Animate Dead, Reanimate, and Necromancy. Donating an Oracle of Mul Daya, Sylvan Primordial, or Eternal Witness to an opponent is not a good idea. Sylvan Ranger is a cheaper, safer option.
Nature's Will is really powerful but rarely does an opponent let an attack go in with this thing out. They burn removal which should really be saved for Worldgorger, Zur, or something really bad, for any type of attacker. May be forced to rethink the inclusion of this card.
Next card I want to try fitting into this list is Collective Unconscious. It can give a lot of bang for the buck. Sadly it isn't tutorable and we will need at least 1-2 more token producers. Probably Deranged Hermit and Wolfbriar Elemental.
Played a game last Saturday with Azusa vs Zur, Rith, and Mayael. Decided to keep a slow opening hand because one of my new cards was in it: Dosan the Falling Leaf. Zur got out an early Serra Ascendant and did not like Dosan. I put him out early. Dosan completely wrecks a control player's game plan. I was very impressed with its game impact. In hindsight I probably should have played him turn 4 instead of turn 3 with Zur's Serra Ascendant sitting on the table. Gonna try testing Glacial Chasm. It can buy some time and prevent a knockout with a Crop Rotation.
why no play life from the loam, sol ring? and how we win without crucible?
Loam is too slow. When we dredge and hit an Eldrazi the graveyard is lost. Sol Ring helps get out Azusa turn 2 but does nothing else to advance our board. The list usually wins through Craterhoof Behemoth or the Eldrazi
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I like running both Garruks. I watched by GF win with 26 Wurm tokens last Sunday that somehow got by as we used our resources fighting off another player that academy rectored into Omniscience and dropped a few strong cards. Primal Hunter is much stronger, but the ramp from wildspeaker is also great, especially untapping utility lands or cradle.
Seer's Sundial is some of the weaker draw we run, but its still draw. You'll be underwhelmed, but it works.
For this deck, Fauna Shaman just doesn't have the speed and versatility we need compared to Survival.
Exploration is a card I've never been a fan of in Azusa. To run exploration well here, you need more lands and then more draw to get those lands somewhat warping the deck around it. I've always liked exploration better in UGx decks where you always have a stash of lands in hand from the draw and nothing better to do with them other than discard them. In a deck like Edric or Damia, they can play exploration turn 1 and get 2 land drops every turn till its destroyed. Here however I've had very few games where I had the draw to support 4 lands per turn and If I did, it got destroyed post haste. If I only get 2-3 lands off exploration and run out of gas, I'd rather see something else that has more overall impact.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I've never gotten more than 18 lands out with this list...our games usually finish around turn 8-10 when there are one or fewer blue players.
I thought about playing Garruk Primal Hunter with Garruk Wildspeaker but decided against it. Wildspeaker comes out earlier and we can usually do something else that same turn. My opponents have a tendency to hurt themselves and Garruk's Overrun ability is actually a lethal threat. Primal Hunter hinges on getting a big body into play before it is played so as to get value. I don't miss it at all.
Seer's Sundial keeps going in and out as I look for something better. Sadly there is nothing I've found that works better.
Fauna Shaman will get us there but as I never tutor for him and the table usually kills him on sight, it hasn't done much
What do you do when your turn 3 Azusa is countered? A counterspell on our first casting of Azusa is particularly painful because it neutralizes any quick start. Exploration provides a safety valve. Azusa gets a lot of hate while Exploration barely attracts any notice at all. From a card advantage perspective I agree with you; Exploration sucks, but the way Azusa attracts hate we've got to carry alternatives.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Really? I tried Sundial and immediately hated it. It was slow, unrealiable, and mana hungry. For pure draw, have you tried all of these?
Ohran Viper
Hystrodon
Staff of Nin
Dreamstone Hedron
Collective Unconscious
Sword of Fire and Ice
Mask of Memory
Memory Jar
Hunter's Insight
Greater Good
Momentous Fall
Soul's Majesty
Bequeathal
Fecundity
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Soul of the Harvest
Mulch
And how about these for other ways to fill your hand and keep the gas flowing?
Reap
Restock
Creeping Renaissance
Praetor's Counsel
Compost
Fa'ahdiyah Seer
Hermit Druid
Life from the Loam
Evolution Charm
Blasted Landscape
Slippery Karst
Tranquil Thicket
Mosswort Bridge
Elvish Aberration
Realms Uncharted
Buried Ruin
Haunted Fengraf
Ancient Stirrings
I run some of these, and I'm rarely in need of cards. My only concern is you might have to drastically restructure your deck, but at the least, you should try out some of the cyclers along with Kozilek, who you can easily find repeatedly via a land tutor into Eye of Ugin.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
The only requirement I have for draw is we get the card immediately and without too many preconditions. The Sundial is costly and a mana sink but it gets us a card now. Collective Unconscious looks like it could do something nice with token generators, but the other cards aren't what I'm looking for. Mind's Eye and Garruk Primal Hunter are close but a little behind the Sundial in my eyes
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Why not run some more Regrowths then? Reap, Restock, Creeping Renaissance, and Praetor's Counsel all refill your hand immediately. They get even better with things like Mulch, Fa'adiyah Seer, Life from the Loam, Hermit Druid, Momentous Fall, and Greater Good, Memory Jar, Crop Rotation, Realms Uncharted, Scapeshift, and whatever lands you're cycling or sacrificing for effects.
Also, the cycling lands create a draw engine when combined with Life from the Loam, and you can get a few free cards off of them with Crucible of Worlds and the aforementioned mass regrowths.
Another draw engine is Elvish Aberration or Krosan Tusker plus Genesis, which you can set up with Survival of the Fittest or Fauna Shaman.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
In performance, Mind's Eye is MUCH better than Seer's Sundial IMO. With Azusa we should almost always have the mana to draw as well.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
5-6 mana per card is too high a price to pay. The way this list is built, creatures in play are valued more highly than ones in the graveyard. Sylvan Ranger, Wall of Blossoms, Gatekeeper Vine, and Elvish Visionary are fantastic.
The cycling lands aren't good unless we have Life from the Loam in hand with 2 cycling lands. Even then we are paying 5-6 mana for 2 cards. That's too conditional and not attractive cost-wise. I think Collective Unconscious will be more useful as a spell version of Regal Force. Avenger into play, tap Cradle to cast Collective Unconscious, boom. Or with at least 3 creatures in play a 2:1 mana to card ratio is acceptable.
In regards to Regrowth type cards I'm not sure what the optimal number to run is. Between Eternal Witness, Regrowth, and Revive I've been quite happy but maybe one or two more would be expedient. The thing is when an Eldrazi hits the graveyard they become dead cards.
@jmdt: Mind's Eye is superior to the Sundial on an empty board but the list has more synergies (Stone-Seeder Hierophant, Lotus Cobra) with the Sundial and being able to draw on your turn while still being able to play cards can be the difference between winning a game and losing it.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
You're paying an upfront 6 mana with an added condition just to get your first card from Seer's Sundial, and then it continues to cost you mana and isn't even reliable if you've already thinned your deck of lots of lands.
The thing I like most about the Cyclers is that you can usually Cycle them on turn 2 when you'd otherwise be doing nothing, or else you can easily find 2 mana to Cycle something at instant speed later. I know it doesn't sound that great in theory, but in practice, it's like getting free cards. Being able to get an occasional extra free card off of something like Life from the Loam is just gravy.
Also, for card advantage, I can't recommend Hermit Druid enough. He comes down on the underutilized turn 2, and although he costs a mana to use, he really pays for himself, since he finds you a Forest that you can immediately play with Azusa. He synergizes with Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, Artisan of Kozilek, Crush of Wurms, Creeping Renaissance, Genesis, Evolution Charm, and any Regrowths you're running. In addition, whenever he mills Kozilek or Ulamog, he improves the quality of your draws for the rest of the game and allows you to reuse things. You can also Skullclamp him in a pinch, and he's another body for an Overrun effect or a Collective Unconscious effect. Finally, he plays really well with Landfall, so you'll get even more value from Horn of Greed, Avenger of Zendikar, Rampaging Baloths, Lotus Cobra, and Seer's Sundial. He's my favorite early Green Sun's Zenith target.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I'll give Hermit Druid a shot again. He feels right in the 2cc slot. I included him briefly in the list but never saw him in a game before axing him
In regards to the cyclers I have tried the cycling lands and they were not to my liking. The optimal play at 2 mana is to play a body or Sylvan Library. The second best play is a tutor. Cycling is our third choice. The main problem I have with the cyclers is we pay 2 mana to replace a card in our hand while gaining no true card advantage or body in play, until we get to Life from the Loam or Crucible.
Yes i know the limitations on Seer's Sundial. The up front cost is hideous. However I carry 50 lands and hitting one should be 50% after its played. 2 mana per card is palatable when we can tap the land being played for 1. The greatest problem with the Sundial is the turn we play it we are unable to take full advantage of the cards drawn while in the early game. And if we are not holding a land in hand it may not do a thing. However when we get going we can draw an insane number of cards mid-late game with Scapeshift, Primordial, Thawing Glaciers + Stone-Seeder, Fetch + Crucible of Worlds
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Even after mulling I got a crappy hand tonight, but I was able to squeak out a slow win on the back of draw off of Seer's Sundial. I was stalled at 4 lands with more expensive guys in hand, but sundial gave me the gas to get established, draw into Horn of greed, and I ended with like 16 lands out when I for the 2nd time in two games won off of ultimating Mr. Primal Hunter after Boundless realms was countered while my Rampaging Baloths was out out. Moral of the story, Seer's Sundial was the MVP that game.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I've never in my life gotten Garruk Primal Hunter's ultimate off. If Sundial isn't addressed it'll just go bonkers late game. I took a peek at your mana curve and it is really, really weighted down at the high end. Have you ever considered taking a butcher's knife and cutting the fat out of it? Whenever I see an opening hand with anything over 6cc I frown unhappily
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Are you sure any old draw engine wouldn't have sufficed?
My problem with Seer's Sundial is the math. Even if you're putting 50 lands into your deck, by the time you can start to use Sundial without slowing yourself down too much, you probably have about 40 lands left in your deck. In this situation, each time you draw a card, you have a 40% chance of being able to pay 2 for another card. Mathematically, this is worse than getting a single new card each turn, even when you factor in the unlikely chance that you can draw a chain of cards in a single turn. I'll admit that if you're running cards that put many lands into your hand, Sundial gets better, but even then, only marginally so. Even worse, there are cards that offer that, plus they cost less mana, plus they have added benefits.
Staff of Nin is free to use once you play it, and it allows you to remove utility guys and chump blockers.
Ohran Viper is a lot cheaper, comes down earlier, and is an excellent blocker.
Hystrodon is cheaper, has a decent body, and is reliable because it has Trample.
Magus of the Library accelerates your mana and is dirt cheap.
Drumhunter is cheap, accelerates your mana, and is reliable if you run enough large creatures.
In addition, all of the creatures above can be easily tutored for, and I haven't even gotten into burst draw. Just because Sundial is decent doesn't mean it's the best option. Its main advantage over most of the above is that it doesn't get caught up in a board wipe, but there's still Staff of Nin plus all of the available burst draw to get around that.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
I would evaluate all of your listed cards as inferior to the Sundial. None of them can put a card into our hands the turn we play it. The main benefit of the Sundial is we get the extra card on our turn. And we can get multiple cards if our mana permits and we have landfall triggers. I feel 40% is slightly low, 45% is probably closer to the odds of hitting a land after we hit 10 land in play. Getting cards NOW is really important. Delays are gamebreakers. I overcame 6 billion squirrel tokens thanks to the Sundial once. None of those options listed would have done so, and all of them except the Staff are conditional draws
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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You can't really complain about them being conditional since Sundial is too. Also, if you want to get a draw the turn you play it, you have to pay six mana up front, and then still have mana to cast whatever you drew. Otherwise, it's not much better than just waiting a turn for your card.
How about something like Sword of Fire and Ice, Memory Jar, or Garruk, Primal Hunter?
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Memory jar should be an auto include and I've had good experience with primal hunter.
Virtually all my opponents run black for its tutors. As well as Reanimate and Animate Dead. If Memory Jar is not going to win us the game, its going to win the game for one of our opponents. Until wizards prints something better I think we're stuck with Seer's Sundial
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Hystrodon and Ohran Viper rely on what your opponent is doing to draw cards. I never like cards that rely on what's going on with my opponent's side unless they are game breaking. Staff of Nin gives only 1 draw per turn, starting next turn. Magus of the Library requires 7 cards in hand, which doesn't happen for me all too often. Drumhunter only situationaly draws a card, and only on the next turn.
Seer's Sundial has the big benefits in that it fires the turn we play it (if we have the mana to do so) and we can use it multiple times per turn (which I do). Its way down the list, but as Swift says, its the best we have.
Memory Jar in a mono green deck is a BIG nono if you can't win the turn you play it, and 9 time out of 10, we won't.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I'm kind of on the fence with Hermit Druid. He does get us a land into our hands but I see 2 drawbacks with him. He necessitates additional support cards, particularly graveyard interaction like Revive, Life from the Loam, Petrified Field, Haunted Fengraf, and maybe Creeping Renaissance. Those are slots we don't have. Second drawback is virtually every deck I play against runs Animate Dead, Reanimate, and Necromancy. Donating an Oracle of Mul Daya, Sylvan Primordial, or Eternal Witness to an opponent is not a good idea. Sylvan Ranger is a cheaper, safer option.
Nature's Will is really powerful but rarely does an opponent let an attack go in with this thing out. They burn removal which should really be saved for Worldgorger, Zur, or something really bad, for any type of attacker. May be forced to rethink the inclusion of this card.
Next card I want to try fitting into this list is Collective Unconscious. It can give a lot of bang for the buck. Sadly it isn't tutorable and we will need at least 1-2 more token producers. Probably Deranged Hermit and Wolfbriar Elemental.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Loam is too slow. When we dredge and hit an Eldrazi the graveyard is lost. Sol Ring helps get out Azusa turn 2 but does nothing else to advance our board. The list usually wins through Craterhoof Behemoth or the Eldrazi
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
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Speed, card advantage, and tutors are more important than token generators. I would like to cut Wolfbriar Elemental
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL