Played 6-7 games last night against Sheoldred/Ghave and Rith/Damia. Opponents had some surprises for me like Constant Mists and a healthy supply of wipers. But I was still able to take all but two games: one where Rith got going and created a horde of 1/1s to overwhelm the table and one where Ghave broke out Tooth and Nail into Mikeaus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion to combo off just as I had broken open the game myself by resolving entwined Tooth and Nail into Avenger of Zendikar and Regal Force drawing 17 and playing a hasted Ulamog with SoFaF to smash in Damia (Damia also had Tooth and Nail in hand lol, which I suspected when he didn't block Ulamog AND let me untap, so I promptly casted Terastodon and nuked his land base). Friend said afterwards this was the fastest aggro deck he'd sat across vs. Overall I was fairly pleased. Our speed and power put immense pressure on a short table. When the board was wiped and going the Eldrazi route one thing I noticed is the undesireable 2-turn delay tutoring for and casting an Eldrazi. I'll look at some ways to speed that up
When the board was wiped and going the Eldrazi route one thing I noticed is the undesireable 2-turn delay tutoring for and casting an Eldrazi. I'll look at some ways to speed that up
The fastest way to chuck out Eldrazi is the combination of Seedborn Muse, Eye of Ugin, and Winding Canyons. Basically you tutor for it on one opponent's turn with eye and then cast it EOT on the opponent's turn right before yours with winding canyons.
The fastest way to chuck out Eldrazi is the combination of Seedborn Muse, Eye of Ugin, and Winding Canyons. Basically you tutor for it on one opponent's turn with eye and then cast it EOT on the opponent's turn right before yours with winding canyons.
I tried to fit Seedborn in but I couldn't justify it's inclusion without freeing up a few other slots for cards which worked with it. What I did do was take out Steel Hellkite and put in Worldly Tutor. Getting Oracle online more consistently can probably get us to 15 mana for activating the Eye and casting Kozilek the same turn within a reasonable amount of time. If that's still not enough there is Sylvan Tutor. I hate putting those card disadvantage tutors in but I don't see many other options. The tutors have the additional benefit of being able to get to my win conditions, albeit at the cost of a card. Also going to take out a forest for Winding Canyons. We may not have the mana for it early but late game grinding it can be quite useful
Played 4 games on a 4-man table vs Zur, Damia, and Kresh. First time my meta made adjustments to deal with Azusa. Kresh put in what I would guess was 25-33 creature removal, most of it targetted, into his list. Azusa would get played and removed instantly. Not to mention, all my creature accelerants. I could still play Azusa and unload lands but my board developed very slowly and I could not outrace the board. Nor could I pressure the combo players. Damia would take 3/4 games. I got the last game when Zur killed Damia and Kresh got a bad draw (lack of removal and ramp). I can see why Gaea's Touch is in most Azusa lists so I'll add it in. I'll have to think about what other adjustments I should add
Played 4 games on a 4-man table vs Zur, Damia, and Kresh. First time my meta made adjustments to deal with Azusa. Kresh put in what I would guess was 25-33 creature removal, most of it targetted, into his list. Azusa would get played and removed instantly. Not to mention, all my creature accelerants. I could still play Azusa and unload lands but my board developed very slowly and I could not outrace the board. Nor could I pressure the combo players. Damia would take 3/4 games. I got the last game when Zur killed Damia and Kresh got a bad draw (lack of removal and ramp). I can see why Gaea's Touch is in most Azusa lists so I'll add it in. I'll have to think about what other adjustments I should add
I face this situation quite a bit these days. When Azusa comes out she dies every possible chance; it complicates our life just a bit. Its removal like this that made me fundamentally shift the deck from a fast kill deck to a more big green deck. We'll always have the most mana on the table and with the eldrazi, our dead threats will recycle themselves and come around again. If you can't win 5-6 consistently due to meta considerations, shift the deck more midrange and capable of using the large mana you will have.
I've never been a fan of the Exploration effects personally. Generally speaking we never have the fuel to fully realize their potential.
I face this situation quite a bit these days. When Azusa comes out she dies every possible chance; it complicates our life just a bit. Its removal like this that made me fundamentally shift the deck from a fast kill deck to a more big green deck. We'll always have the most mana on the table and with the eldrazi, our dead threats will recycle themselves and come around again. If you can't win 5-6 consistently due to meta considerations, shift the deck more midrange and capable of using the large mana you will have.
I've never been a fan of the Exploration effects personally. Generally speaking we never have the fuel to fully realize their potential.
In 2 of the games I got Horn of Greed online but my hand was fairly clogged due to Azusa dying so often and having to recast her (one game she got up to 5 counters) or put/remove a threat on the table the list just couldn't get going. Gaea's Touch would've been quite useful in this regards. Being able to hit a draw engine and getting it online gets exploration type effects to pay off. Otherwise you are right, they don't help.
I think I should look at LD/stax as a means of controlling the combo players. Their critical mass is about 7-9 mana and if we can keep them off that, they can't go off.
Played 5 games today on a 4-man table versus Zur, Rith, and Kresh. I had some fantastic starts. First game I opened with play a Forest, play Mana Crypt, tap for 2G play Azusa, play a Forest, play a Wasteland, tap for 1G play Sylvan Library. Went on to take that game and 4 of the 5. The one game where I lost I got smashed up pretty good: turn 0 Duress, turn 3 Mind Twist for 6 (I had a slow start, not enough lands). Made a recovery with Horn of Greed and Azusa but Cataclysm crushed my hopes. Wish we had more creature removal options. Turn 2 Zur for example, we have no answer for. Plummet?
First time I took Azusa for a spin and felt outclassed by the firepower on the table. Went up against Jhoira, Karrthus, and Zur. LD shut down Azusa fairly effectively. Was unable to establish a resource advantage in any of the 3 games I played with her. I did take the last game thanks to an assist from Karrthus cycling Decree of Annihilation to take out Zur's lands, but it didn't feel like a win. Zur got Jace TMS's ultimate off instead of bouncing stuff or brainstorming for answers. In the end I ran him over =)
Tested Mana Reflection and Caged Sun. They don't fit in this list. Going to play some with Kamahl.
First time I took Azusa for a spin and felt outclassed by the firepower on the table. Went up against Jhoira, Karrthus, and Zur. LD shut down Azusa fairly effectively. Was unable to establish a resource advantage in any of the 3 games I played with her. I did take the last game thanks to an assist from Karrthus cycling Decree of Annihilation to take out Zur's lands, but it didn't feel like a win. Zur got Jace TMS's ultimate off instead of bouncing stuff or brainstorming for answers. In the end I ran him over =)
Tested Mana Reflection and Caged Sun. They don't fit in this list. Going to play some with Kamahl.
MLD really does make us cry. One of the reasons Azusa is so good is that people usually refrain from LD in many EDH playgroups. Its fundamentally the best counter to what we do.
Caged Sun and Mana reflection are removal magnets. You need to either drop them and make a big play or let them stick for 1-2 rotations around the board. The most useful doublers I've found are Vorinclex and Boundless realms since they interact more favorably with what the deck is trying to do already. Even if they remove vorinclex, they are behind on mana and are buring a spell that ould be used on azusa or the eldrazi, and boundless gives hard lands that won't go too far unless they are dropping Armageddon. Boundless with Rampaging baloths or Avenger of zendikar out is game-winning.
I'm down on the big mana doublers. They take too much time to get online and as you say, get killed asap. Lotus Cobra and Rofellos attract their share of hate too but they can get online so much earlier. I put back in Stone-Seeder Hierophant for testing. It's a creature and it does broken things with Cradle. Boundless Realms makes sure we're good for mana but at 7 it's costly and I don't like the idea of wasting a whole turn to ramp. Not unless Lotus Cobra/Avenger are out.
I've racked my brain for answers against MLD but green has ... Timber Protector to save its forests. That would be a waste of a slot. Crucible is best but being unable to tutor for it or Loam is problematic. I got two slots to play with: Brutalizer Exarch and Summoner's Pact. I think I'll try Rampaging Baloths and Life from the Loam there.
Played 3 games of 4 way fun with Azusa vs Ghave/Karrthus, Zur, and Teneb/Jhoira. I liked what Time of Need and Kamahl added to the list. Acceleration and firepower! Game 1 I had a great draw with Horn of Greed, Elvish Visionary, 3 lands, Harmonize, and Time of Need. 2nd turn Time of Need for Rofellos was huge towards setting up an early stompy finish. In the next game Teneb got his Squirrel's Nest and Earthcraft combo out (turn 7?) but he was one turn late as I tutored for Kamahl, cast him, and activated double overrun to finish off the 200 man squirrel horde. Last game I got a Crucible out and after Karrthus played mass LD trying to seal the game, Zur locked down Karrthus with that white enchantment that keeps all non-white creatures tapped. Big mistake as I recovered quickly after recasting Azusa and putting all my lands back into play. Was pummeled down to 8 but I stabilized cast Eldrazi and killed off the table. Switched over to Rafiq after that
I'm not sure Rampaging Baloths is fast enough for this list. It was a dead card in hand the one time I drew him last night (late game)
So I thought I'd put 4 cards up on the cutting block for discussion:
Dryad Arbor
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Primal Command
Rampaging Baloths
I've become less happy to see Dryad Arbor when I draw it. It gets caught up in wipes and has summoning sickness. I'm also convinced it's a bad play to t1 GSZ for it. We should save GSZ for Oracle t4. Natural Order does like the Dryad but Khalni Garden could sub in
Mikokoro I've never used unless I'm land screwed or just in a really bad position. I guess the option to use it is nice to have but I'd rather have a utility land which can offer some sort of advantage.
Primal Command I'm sure there will eventually be a cheaper, more efficient green tutor to replace it with. Until then I'll probably stick with it. Early-game it's pretty bad
Rampaging Baloths's biggest problem is by the time I cast him I'm short of lands in hand. And the tokens do not have haste. Passing the turn with 5 tokens is begging for a wipe
Dryad ramps, helps against sacrifice effects, chump blocks and is a great Natural Order target.
Mikokoro at EOT draws when you need gas.
Primal Command tutors/removes graves/shuffles in permanents.
Baloths + a land is 10 power on the table, which is not too bad after a wrath.
I swapped out Baloths for Cloudstone Curio. Without haste for our board Baloths is very meh. It's just too slow imo. Curio offers some ETB fun and can help us put additional lands into play by bouncing Azusa and recasting her and another creature. Getting Avenger of Zendikar/Craterhoof back into hand could be very useful as well. Conceivably we could generate infinite mana with enough creatures in play. Tap Cradle, play a forest to bounce it, tap forest and play Cradle again and bounce tapped forest to hand. Play a creature bounce Azusa, recast Azusa so we can play 2 more lands and bounce the other creature to hand. So long as Cradle produces as much mana as it costs to cast both Azusa and the other creature we can go infinite
I can see this working well in your list (in mine the card is out of the question), though - since you can't reliably tutor for it - I find Curio to be a win more card in mono green. The siutation you described looks great on paper, but requires too much boardstate and hand sculpting for my taste.
True enough. Cards which we cannot tutor for have got to be exceptional in order to earn a slot. The bar is certainly higher for non-creatures. Curio does hold a lot of potential. Mana-wise we're going to be able to do a lot with 2-3cc ETB creatures and Curio in play. I run quite a few of those guys. The potential to go infinite and finish a game with Terastodon or Sylvan Primordial probably won't happen often, but we could get there in a long game. Especially one where our stompy option is neutralized. I've started seeing Turnabout, Cryptic Command, Evacuation, Blind Obedience, Constant Mists, Cyclonic Rift, and Batwing Brume among other cards aimed at slowing down my rush. Less single target creature removal
So I thought I'd put 4 cards up on the cutting block for discussion:
Dryad Arbor
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Primal Command
Rampaging Baloths
dryad arbor is one of the weakest lands in the deck and honestly like 3 nonbasics away from getting cut in my build. outside of NO fodder and being an emergency blocker, it does nothing but slow the deck down... maybe an extra point of damage from kamahl beats... oooooooh!
In a cloudstone build (which you were briefly discussing), it can be a better role player, but on a stock list.... its pretty bad.
mikokoro is the truth. is a draw engine that Is very hard for opponents to interact with and synergistic with the deck. getting minds eye online with it is awesome.
primal command is a great role player in the deck. it is not for everyone, but more people should be looking into it...at least those who do not run crypt effects. every mode is always relevant, even though it is kind of costly for any combination of the 2, its not like azusa is light on mana sources.
rampaging baloths is amazing. its a one man army. the dies to removal argument is weak. opponents will not always have the kill spell or the sweeper. when they do, they 1 for 1 you... oh well. when they don't, they eat a million damage.
dryad arbor is one of the weakest lands in the deck and honestly like 3 nonbasics away from getting cut in my build. outside of NO fodder and being an emergency blocker, it does nothing but slow the deck down... maybe an extra point of damage from kamahl beats... oooooooh!
In a cloudstone build (which you were briefly discussing), it can be a better role player, but on a stock list.... its pretty bad.
mikokoro is the truth. is a draw engine that Is very hard for opponents to interact with and synergistic with the deck. getting minds eye online with it is awesome.
primal command is a great role player in the deck. it is not for everyone, but more people should be looking into it...at least those who do not run crypt effects. every mode is always relevant, even though it is kind of costly for any combination of the 2, its not like azusa is light on mana sources.
rampaging baloths is amazing. its a one man army. the dies to removal argument is weak. opponents will not always have the kill spell or the sweeper. when they do, they 1 for 1 you... oh well. when they don't, they eat a million damage.
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I'll take a hard look at replacements for Dryad Arbor.
My opponents are not run of the mill, and generally have higher card quality on a card by card basis. I feel giving everyone additional cards is quite dangerous. Especially when they all have combo finishes
The one turn delay in casting a creature we tutor for (with Primal Command) is painful early game. Mid-late game it is no problem. It has helped win games. One game I was down to 3 life with Mana Crypt out and I had to take the 7 life option - went on to win the game. Won't replace it until something faster comes along.
Baloths has been in and out of this list several times. Theoretically it has a lot of synergies with lands being played but its impact in a practical sense is usually zero. I've never tutored for it. So maybe 1 in 10 games he pops up in my hand. Without a draw engine in place to fire out lands consistently, Scapeshift in hand to put out a mass of tokens, or Crucible with a fetch in the yard, he is just a middle-sized beater and a really bad token producer, falling far short of Avenger of Zendikar. The table will react and neutralize Baloths and his progeny. If there were more haste mechanisms I would most definately play Baloths. But there are not, and until there are he probably will not be part of this list.
Got 4 games in Saturday evening vs the usual suspects: Zur, Ghave/Karrthus, and Teneb. Game 1 went really well. Turn 1 forest. Turn 2 Ancient Tomb play Azusa, 2 lands and Lotus Cobra. Rest is a little hazy. I resolved turn 3 Sylvan Primordial and Sylvan Library. Turn 4 something got countered and then I played Scapeshift. Tapped out then Scapeshift for 10. With 14 mana floating I played Primal Command for Terastodon and played it. Turn 5 Zur pacted something and then I tutored for and cast Ulamog. Zur died turn 6 after being unable to pay for his Pact of Negation. Ghave conceded turn 6 after Ulamog swung at him. And Teneb conceded turn 7. Game 2 I had another great start but was nullified by Terminus. While I was paying too much attention to Zur, Ghave got enough mana to fire off Tooth and Nail entwined turn 6 for the win. Game 3 Zur hit me with a Mind Twist for 5 (my turn 2) and that essentially ended my game. Teneb eventually comboed out with Mike and Trike turn 15? after a Cataclysm somewhere inbetween. Zur was threatening to combo off 5 times (Exsanguinate in hand) but the combined hate from the table did not allow him to assemble his infinite mana engine. Ironically Teneb played Exsanguinate for 1 to kill Zur off. Game 4 turn 0 Thoughtseize from Zur got rid of my Oracle and another Mind Twist and Cataclysm crushed my hopes. Karrthus won a long game
The game I played Compost turn 3 it drew me 4-5 cards over the duration of the game. Not bad.
Nature's Will is really, really good. I played it twice but only got to profit once. The other time it ate a Beast Within. I noticed we need more utility lands to take maximum advantage of it. So I'm adding in Arena and Dust Bowl.
Phyrexian Revoker annoyed opponents before getting removed. I named Necropotence. I suppose it could have its place but acceleration or offense trumps defense.
SDT I drew once in an opening hand. Played it, earliest I could check the top 3 cards of my library (without slowing me down) was turn 3. Saw Nature's Will, Tooth and Nail, Natural Order. I put the Nature's Will on top and Tooth and Nail 2nd. Sadly I had shuffle away the SDT when I popped a Verdant Catacombs. SDT wasn't bad but a draw engine would probably be preferable over it.
Life from the Loam doubles the chance we get to hit insurance against LD. I got Crucible out 3 games and saw Life from the Loam in 2 more. In both games an Eldrazi eventually shuffled away my graveyard and the loam. Once thanks to an opponent's Mindcrank and the other when I had Survival out.
Nature's Will was the best card of the lot. I'll be working on integrating it into the list
Here's something I wrote on the use of Cloudstone Curio in Azusa:
Cloudstone Curio
This powerful artifact is a ramp piece with Azusa or Oracle out, and it can allow you to reuse your ETB triggers. However, it is so much more.
-Reuse your triggers for Artisan of Kozilek, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.
-Get extra tokens from Khalni Garden, and extra free cards from Mosswort Bridge.
-Get extra Landfall triggers every turn, for more mana, more 4/4 Beasts, bigger Plants, and extra cards from Horn of Greed.
-Bounce Azusa or Oracle to get even more extra land drops each turn.
-Bounce Avenger of Zendikar or Wolfbriar Elemental with its own tokens, then replay it for even more tokens.
-Kick Thicket Elemental and then bounce it with the creature you get, so you can use it over and over.
-Fetch Dryad Arbor off of Sylvan Primordial to bounce and reuse it.
-Cast Artisan of Kozilek, revive something, then as Artisan comes into play, bounce whatever you revived. Replay that creature to bounce Artisan. Eventually, you can replay every creature in your graveyard. A similar trick works with Eternal Witness.
-Protect your resources by bouncing them back to your hand before your turn is over.
-Clear whatever is in Mimic Vat, turning it into stronger graveyard hate.
-With Winding Canyons, you can bounce your creatures at instant speed to save them.
Remember that Dryad Arbor and the token from Khalni Garden can be used to bounce creatures, so that land fetch card can be used to give yourself another trigger from something like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Eternal Witness.
I'd like to hear more about your future experiences with Compost and Nature's Will, Swift. I've been considering Compost very strongly, and already maindeck Lifeforce. Green has so many draw options though, and it's really tough to pin down which ones to run, since each one has very apparent flaws. I've always been a fan of Nature's Will in token Azusa, for things like Ant Queen, plus the fact that the tokens make it easy to get lots of hits in and tap down everyone. Do you think it's worth it without lots of tokens?
I'd like to hear more about your future experiences with Compost and Nature's Will, Swift. I've been considering Compost very strongly, and already maindeck Lifeforce. Green has so many draw options though, and it's really tough to pin down which ones to run, since each one has very apparent flaws. I've always been a fan of Nature's Will in token Azusa, for things like Ant Queen, plus the fact that the tokens make it easy to get lots of hits in and tap down everyone. Do you think it's worth it without lots of tokens?
Curio is definately a strong card which can turn a small board presence into something disgusting. Or flat out win the game for us with enough stuff in play. I haven't given up on it, just trying to test some cards to find out what works. For instance I'm still trying to get Stone-Seeder Hierophant to work in this list. It's crummy without haste but with a few other cards it can break open games. I see Curio in a similar light. With the right supporting cast it can be a superstar.
Compost drew no hate from the table. I played it, and it sat around for a long time. Opponents basically ignored it. Lifeforce would've been dealt with quickly. I like Compost better than Seer's Sundial. Getting the draw free every once in a while is better than paying 2 per land played (unless we are in late-game with no LD played). Mana is usually my bottleneck the first 4-5 turns and the Sundial is kind of costly. Compost is cheap and let's us do something turn 2, or turn 3 after playing Azusa and 2 more lands.
Nature's Will - play it and love it. If you run Avenger you can play it. 4 man table 3 opponents: hit 3 opponents and we get 3 triggers. We just tripled our mana to use with instant speed spells or abilities. Utility lands can be used 3 times... Even if we have just 1 creature attacking and making contact being able to untap is almost a Time Walk for green, just without the attack phase.
Can you explain how you use Scapeshift? Would you sac utility lands to dig for forests or the other way around? I want to try this list but I'm worried about the low creature count because my playgroup plays TONS of targeted removal and board wipes.
Can you explain how you use Scapeshift? Would you sac utility lands to dig for forests or the other way around? I want to try this list but I'm worried about the low creature count because my playgroup plays TONS of targeted removal and board wipes.
Scapeshift is used to fetch utility lands and abuse landfall triggers with: Lotus Cobra, Rampaging Baloths, Stone-Seeder Hierophant, and Avenger of Zendikar. Utility lands I usually get with Scapeshift are: Gaea's Cradle, Deserted Temple, Khalni Garden, Temple of the False God, Inkmoth Nexus, Eye of Ugin, and Hall of the Bandit Lord. Sometimes we want fetch lands. The one land I would never sac to Scapeshift would be Gaea's Cradle.
LD and counters are our bane. Mass and targetted removal are annoying and do slow us down. Particularly when opponents gang up on us. But that's a sign of respect. Even with all that hate I usually still win 25% of my games on a 4 man table. And if Azusa doesn't get killed our countered that percentage is probably 75%.
We don't need a high creature count. Our draw and tutors will get us there. This list is designed to build up a resource advantage as quickly as possible and then crush the table with Craterhoof or combo out with Cloudstone Curio. Plan C is the Eldrazi
So after playing around with Compost I decided to cut it. Being able to draw cards immediately trumps passive draw.
Cloudstone Curio on the other hand, impressed me a lot. It is a win condition with almost any kind of board and Gaea's Cradle in play. The last game I took with just 2 attackers and Cloudstone in play. Casted Avenger of Zendikar, tapped Cradle for 14, returned Avenger to hand, played a land, bounced Cradle to hand, played Cradle and tapped it for 26 mana. Tutored for Craterhoof, cast it, and took out my opponent with Azusa and Craterhoof doing nearly 30 each
Going to try Winding Canyons in place of Dust Bowl. The LD is less effective the more players there are in a game. And Winding Canyons can get in Avenger or an Eldrazi at EOT. In addition Nature's Will is particularly nice with Winding Canyons
After my last 7-8 games I've decided to try to focus on a faster start. Cavern of Souls and Exploration should help protect Azusa and offer alternatives so that if something bad happens to Azusa I can still play lands. Maybe I'll try Gaea's Touch later but I don't feel like I have enough forests to make it worth running. The current tweaks should speed up the list.
Removed: Oblivion Stone, Duplicant, SoFaF, and Garruk Primal Hunter.
Added: Exploration, Garruk Wildspeaker, Fauna Shaman, and Revive
Would really like to take out Life from the Loam and put back Summoner's Pact but there is just too much LD. Draw may be too weak now. Removal is also extremely weak. But if we're at the point in a game where we need to wipe the board, we're probably not going to win. All in mono-green!
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
The fastest way to chuck out Eldrazi is the combination of Seedborn Muse, Eye of Ugin, and Winding Canyons. Basically you tutor for it on one opponent's turn with eye and then cast it EOT on the opponent's turn right before yours with winding canyons.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
That solves a lot of issues. I was also considering Bear Umbra and Candelabra of Tawnos
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I face this situation quite a bit these days. When Azusa comes out she dies every possible chance; it complicates our life just a bit. Its removal like this that made me fundamentally shift the deck from a fast kill deck to a more big green deck. We'll always have the most mana on the table and with the eldrazi, our dead threats will recycle themselves and come around again. If you can't win 5-6 consistently due to meta considerations, shift the deck more midrange and capable of using the large mana you will have.
I've never been a fan of the Exploration effects personally. Generally speaking we never have the fuel to fully realize their potential.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
In 2 of the games I got Horn of Greed online but my hand was fairly clogged due to Azusa dying so often and having to recast her (one game she got up to 5 counters) or put/remove a threat on the table the list just couldn't get going. Gaea's Touch would've been quite useful in this regards. Being able to hit a draw engine and getting it online gets exploration type effects to pay off. Otherwise you are right, they don't help.
I think I should look at LD/stax as a means of controlling the combo players. Their critical mass is about 7-9 mana and if we can keep them off that, they can't go off.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Tested Mana Reflection and Caged Sun. They don't fit in this list. Going to play some with Kamahl.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
MLD really does make us cry. One of the reasons Azusa is so good is that people usually refrain from LD in many EDH playgroups. Its fundamentally the best counter to what we do.
Caged Sun and Mana reflection are removal magnets. You need to either drop them and make a big play or let them stick for 1-2 rotations around the board. The most useful doublers I've found are Vorinclex and Boundless realms since they interact more favorably with what the deck is trying to do already. Even if they remove vorinclex, they are behind on mana and are buring a spell that ould be used on azusa or the eldrazi, and boundless gives hard lands that won't go too far unless they are dropping Armageddon. Boundless with Rampaging baloths or Avenger of zendikar out is game-winning.
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
I've racked my brain for answers against MLD but green has ... Timber Protector to save its forests. That would be a waste of a slot. Crucible is best but being unable to tutor for it or Loam is problematic. I got two slots to play with: Brutalizer Exarch and Summoner's Pact. I think I'll try Rampaging Baloths and Life from the Loam there.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I'm not sure Rampaging Baloths is fast enough for this list. It was a dead card in hand the one time I drew him last night (late game)
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Dryad Arbor
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Primal Command
Rampaging Baloths
I've become less happy to see Dryad Arbor when I draw it. It gets caught up in wipes and has summoning sickness. I'm also convinced it's a bad play to t1 GSZ for it. We should save GSZ for Oracle t4. Natural Order does like the Dryad but Khalni Garden could sub in
Mikokoro I've never used unless I'm land screwed or just in a really bad position. I guess the option to use it is nice to have but I'd rather have a utility land which can offer some sort of advantage.
Primal Command I'm sure there will eventually be a cheaper, more efficient green tutor to replace it with. Until then I'll probably stick with it. Early-game it's pretty bad
Rampaging Baloths's biggest problem is by the time I cast him I'm short of lands in hand. And the tokens do not have haste. Passing the turn with 5 tokens is begging for a wipe
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I swapped out Baloths for Cloudstone Curio. Without haste for our board Baloths is very meh. It's just too slow imo. Curio offers some ETB fun and can help us put additional lands into play by bouncing Azusa and recasting her and another creature. Getting Avenger of Zendikar/Craterhoof back into hand could be very useful as well. Conceivably we could generate infinite mana with enough creatures in play. Tap Cradle, play a forest to bounce it, tap forest and play Cradle again and bounce tapped forest to hand. Play a creature bounce Azusa, recast Azusa so we can play 2 more lands and bounce the other creature to hand. So long as Cradle produces as much mana as it costs to cast both Azusa and the other creature we can go infinite
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
True enough. Cards which we cannot tutor for have got to be exceptional in order to earn a slot. The bar is certainly higher for non-creatures. Curio does hold a lot of potential. Mana-wise we're going to be able to do a lot with 2-3cc ETB creatures and Curio in play. I run quite a few of those guys. The potential to go infinite and finish a game with Terastodon or Sylvan Primordial probably won't happen often, but we could get there in a long game. Especially one where our stompy option is neutralized. I've started seeing Turnabout, Cryptic Command, Evacuation, Blind Obedience, Constant Mists, Cyclonic Rift, and Batwing Brume among other cards aimed at slowing down my rush. Less single target creature removal
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
dryad arbor is one of the weakest lands in the deck and honestly like 3 nonbasics away from getting cut in my build. outside of NO fodder and being an emergency blocker, it does nothing but slow the deck down... maybe an extra point of damage from kamahl beats... oooooooh!
In a cloudstone build (which you were briefly discussing), it can be a better role player, but on a stock list.... its pretty bad.
mikokoro is the truth. is a draw engine that Is very hard for opponents to interact with and synergistic with the deck. getting minds eye online with it is awesome.
primal command is a great role player in the deck. it is not for everyone, but more people should be looking into it...at least those who do not run crypt effects. every mode is always relevant, even though it is kind of costly for any combination of the 2, its not like azusa is light on mana sources.
rampaging baloths is amazing. its a one man army. the dies to removal argument is weak. opponents will not always have the kill spell or the sweeper. when they do, they 1 for 1 you... oh well. when they don't, they eat a million damage.
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I'll take a hard look at replacements for Dryad Arbor.
My opponents are not run of the mill, and generally have higher card quality on a card by card basis. I feel giving everyone additional cards is quite dangerous. Especially when they all have combo finishes
The one turn delay in casting a creature we tutor for (with Primal Command) is painful early game. Mid-late game it is no problem. It has helped win games. One game I was down to 3 life with Mana Crypt out and I had to take the 7 life option - went on to win the game. Won't replace it until something faster comes along.
Baloths has been in and out of this list several times. Theoretically it has a lot of synergies with lands being played but its impact in a practical sense is usually zero. I've never tutored for it. So maybe 1 in 10 games he pops up in my hand. Without a draw engine in place to fire out lands consistently, Scapeshift in hand to put out a mass of tokens, or Crucible with a fetch in the yard, he is just a middle-sized beater and a really bad token producer, falling far short of Avenger of Zendikar. The table will react and neutralize Baloths and his progeny. If there were more haste mechanisms I would most definately play Baloths. But there are not, and until there are he probably will not be part of this list.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Couple cards I'll be testing out as soon as I can make room for them: Compost, Hermit Druid, Nature's Will, and Life from the Loam (shoulda had this in Saturday).
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
The game I played Compost turn 3 it drew me 4-5 cards over the duration of the game. Not bad.
Nature's Will is really, really good. I played it twice but only got to profit once. The other time it ate a Beast Within. I noticed we need more utility lands to take maximum advantage of it. So I'm adding in Arena and Dust Bowl.
Phyrexian Revoker annoyed opponents before getting removed. I named Necropotence. I suppose it could have its place but acceleration or offense trumps defense.
SDT I drew once in an opening hand. Played it, earliest I could check the top 3 cards of my library (without slowing me down) was turn 3. Saw Nature's Will, Tooth and Nail, Natural Order. I put the Nature's Will on top and Tooth and Nail 2nd. Sadly I had shuffle away the SDT when I popped a Verdant Catacombs. SDT wasn't bad but a draw engine would probably be preferable over it.
Life from the Loam doubles the chance we get to hit insurance against LD. I got Crucible out 3 games and saw Life from the Loam in 2 more. In both games an Eldrazi eventually shuffled away my graveyard and the loam. Once thanks to an opponent's Mindcrank and the other when I had Survival out.
Nature's Will was the best card of the lot. I'll be working on integrating it into the list
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Regarding the usefulness of Phyrexian Revoker, I find it best in a list with fast, cheap creature tutors, such as Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, and Survival of the Fittest, and in a metagame where you expect to face Commanders such as Arcum Dagsson, Oona, Queen of the Fae, Chainer, Dementia Master, and Merieke Ri Berit. This allows you to race combo decks and thwart anti-creature strategies. Outside of this type of environment, the card is alright, but not amazing.
I'd like to hear more about your future experiences with Compost and Nature's Will, Swift. I've been considering Compost very strongly, and already maindeck Lifeforce. Green has so many draw options though, and it's really tough to pin down which ones to run, since each one has very apparent flaws. I've always been a fan of Nature's Will in token Azusa, for things like Ant Queen, plus the fact that the tokens make it easy to get lots of hits in and tap down everyone. Do you think it's worth it without lots of tokens?
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Curio is definately a strong card which can turn a small board presence into something disgusting. Or flat out win the game for us with enough stuff in play. I haven't given up on it, just trying to test some cards to find out what works. For instance I'm still trying to get Stone-Seeder Hierophant to work in this list. It's crummy without haste but with a few other cards it can break open games. I see Curio in a similar light. With the right supporting cast it can be a superstar.
Compost drew no hate from the table. I played it, and it sat around for a long time. Opponents basically ignored it. Lifeforce would've been dealt with quickly. I like Compost better than Seer's Sundial. Getting the draw free every once in a while is better than paying 2 per land played (unless we are in late-game with no LD played). Mana is usually my bottleneck the first 4-5 turns and the Sundial is kind of costly. Compost is cheap and let's us do something turn 2, or turn 3 after playing Azusa and 2 more lands.
Nature's Will - play it and love it. If you run Avenger you can play it. 4 man table 3 opponents: hit 3 opponents and we get 3 triggers. We just tripled our mana to use with instant speed spells or abilities. Utility lands can be used 3 times... Even if we have just 1 creature attacking and making contact being able to untap is almost a Time Walk for green, just without the attack phase.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Scapeshift is used to fetch utility lands and abuse landfall triggers with: Lotus Cobra, Rampaging Baloths, Stone-Seeder Hierophant, and Avenger of Zendikar. Utility lands I usually get with Scapeshift are: Gaea's Cradle, Deserted Temple, Khalni Garden, Temple of the False God, Inkmoth Nexus, Eye of Ugin, and Hall of the Bandit Lord. Sometimes we want fetch lands. The one land I would never sac to Scapeshift would be Gaea's Cradle.
LD and counters are our bane. Mass and targetted removal are annoying and do slow us down. Particularly when opponents gang up on us. But that's a sign of respect. Even with all that hate I usually still win 25% of my games on a 4 man table. And if Azusa doesn't get killed our countered that percentage is probably 75%.
We don't need a high creature count. Our draw and tutors will get us there. This list is designed to build up a resource advantage as quickly as possible and then crush the table with Craterhoof or combo out with Cloudstone Curio. Plan C is the Eldrazi
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Cloudstone Curio on the other hand, impressed me a lot. It is a win condition with almost any kind of board and Gaea's Cradle in play. The last game I took with just 2 attackers and Cloudstone in play. Casted Avenger of Zendikar, tapped Cradle for 14, returned Avenger to hand, played a land, bounced Cradle to hand, played Cradle and tapped it for 26 mana. Tutored for Craterhoof, cast it, and took out my opponent with Azusa and Craterhoof doing nearly 30 each
Going to try Winding Canyons in place of Dust Bowl. The LD is less effective the more players there are in a game. And Winding Canyons can get in Avenger or an Eldrazi at EOT. In addition Nature's Will is particularly nice with Winding Canyons
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Removed: Oblivion Stone, Duplicant, SoFaF, and Garruk Primal Hunter.
Added: Exploration, Garruk Wildspeaker, Fauna Shaman, and Revive
Would really like to take out Life from the Loam and put back Summoner's Pact but there is just too much LD. Draw may be too weak now. Removal is also extremely weak. But if we're at the point in a game where we need to wipe the board, we're probably not going to win. All in mono-green!
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL