i'd love your list Izor. This is my list. I run it online. So I get the gambit of decks from casual to competitive I hold my own against each quite well. I am with you on the land count. I run 37 myself. Sivvi just wants to hit her land drops.
The list is a little rough and untested but there are some new things I really wanted to try out. So I guess this is where I am at with what i wanted to toy with. Lots of this is somewhat hypothetical but I wanted to get some game time with a lot of the newer cards and see how I felt.
A few things to note in this list / some things I wanted to try out:
Angel of Condemnation - honestly I just really like the feel of this angel. Its stats and abilities feel well statted and I want to see if I can make it work in rebels. The draw / go feel of rebels feels like it might fit with the control elements of this angel. You can flicker rebels through wraths or juggle someone's utility or attacker. I just like all of the possible plays it opens and the initial mana investment doesn't feel like its too much for it to work.
Flip Cards - I really like the flip to land mechanic for this deck. I often have issues with trying to ramp harder but being worried bout over extending into wraths. Flipping into lands solves some of these issues for me as its not that frequent that I play against MLD decks and when I do.... well I'm playing mono white so whatever they are jack wagons.
Expedition Map over Tithe - With the addition of all these flip cards to lands I have some concern that I may disable some of my Land Tax / Tithe effects. Due to this I moved Tithe over to Expedition Map which honestly might just be a good move for me anyways as I can probably get two lands worth of value out of tutoring for a nonbasic land of my choice. The addition of Crucible & Rings in this list also gave me more interest in the map. I think that Land Tax is still so powerful that I don't intend to change it but I can see Tithe and Expedition Map in some ways being very similar. There is also the Rings + Fetchland package which might also ramp me so ultimately I don't want to rely too much on having less lands than opponents with all of these options to have more lands than them.
Crucible of Worlds / Rings of Brighthearth / Fetchalnds - I had always wanted to jam both of these with fetchlands in a list. I like that crucible can keep some of my solid lands moving and the idea of Rings + Fetches is ramp which seems great considering I had moved to playing Rings more recently in some of my builds. I made room for Expedition Map and Inventors' Fair as well so it is possible I could use the Fair to go get Crucible and replay the fair. Its a package I am interested to see if it pans out or not.
Rebel Light - I cut two of my usual rebels for this build. I usually run Ramosian Sergeant and Aven Riftwatcher as well but I decided to play with the number of rebels I play with in part because someone asked about the Sergeant lately and my response was something along the lines of its nice to have an option to dump a single mana but ultimately I think the Sergeant is a very low profile tutor fill style of tutor rather than something I actually want. I sometimes go in and out on Rappelling Scouts as well but I think I need to watch how many flying block options I have so if I cut Aven Riftwatcher I probably want to keep Rappelling Scouts for now less I go down to just Defiant Falcon as my option. Honestly I have no idea how I will feel about this but ultimately I think I do need to push my rebel count around now and then just to see how my list reacts to the changes.
Thanks for the lists. They operate quite different than mine in all the mana ramp.
How do you navigate your tragic arrogance, hour of revelation, Austere command with your artifacts? I've found artifacts to be one of the strongest points of my deck. Hence why I run multiple ways to get them back.
How has dusk to dawn been? It seems underwhelming. Most of your creatures you can bring back with Sivvi.
I dislike the infinite life combo. It takes three cards to get the life, then you need a payoff card. Has always been way to fragile for me. I'd suggest something like rest in peace/helm of obedience or bomberman (auriok, lion's eye, ballista/chromatic). They have been more reliant and resilient for me. With bomberman you could add in an additional package (tormond crypt, chromatic sphere/star, sensei top, skullclamp, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault).
I'd suggest try cutting distorting lens. In a multiplayer game someone always has red or black. If not, they are dead cards. Distorting lens is such a narrow card. I've always found it cute. If you want to pick off creatures you could try helm of possession.
Speaking of cute, zealot il-vec and basilisk collar. Cut collar. Add in a sword or jitte. They will do more work on a shadow creature.
It is always nice to discuss variants on Lin Sivvi.
That list on tappedout posted earlier is certainly interesting. I personally see a couple of things I personally dislike and some I actually think are generally suboptimal. I feel like it lacks some focus because it seems like it tries to incorporate every toolbox possible while also having the infinite life combo and tons of hatebears. A few thoughts:
Hatebears are great and as someone who plays Sivvi in competitive environments myself I do agree that some amount of them are likely necessary to survive long enough in such an environment unless you want to rely on the other decks stopping each other for you.
However, they do come at a cost. This deck already has trouble with dead draws due to basically all toolbox rebels. Hatebears have exactly the same drawback. It doesn't help if you draw your Stonecloaker against Animar, Sydri and Arcum (which happened to me yesterday). I see that there's recruiter and that some of them can be tutored differently because they're artifacts or enchantments, but it's still very unreliable. I actually ran an extensive hatebear package and ended up cutting both Recruiter itself (because it's incredibly slow) and all of the sorcery-speed hatebears because 1) I rarely got the right bear at the right time, 2) it lead to more dead draws and 3) because they often die before you actually got mileage out of them.
Similarly, while I very much like the idea of Ranger of Eos in general, it is yet another mini-toolbox that has once again the same drawbacks. Drawing your Salvage Scout, Heap Doll and whatnot when you don't want them is terrible.
The next thing is the land count. I run 38 myself plus 10 ramp pieces and another 4 land search cards (which means over 50% of my deck is mana) and I frequently consider increasing that number. It was said above that the list was very tuned, which implies that it was tested thoroughly and that a lot of thought was put into it. It should be known then that average CMC and the highest CMC among spells in the deck cannot be used as an indication for the required land count in this deck at all. The more mana you have, the more Sivvi can do every turn. Unless you're stopped entirely it's virtually impossible to flood with this deck. In turn, stumbling on mana early on has the strongest correlation with losing the game that I've yet to see. It is very hard for me to believe that 30 is the right number for this deck, to put it mildly. With the low land count and the sheer amount of dead draws in the deck the requirements for the opening hand of this list is way above what I'd be comfortable with.
I also share ISB's sentiment about the fast mana choice in that list, because I couldn't disagree more with the statement that getting Sivvi out turn 2 is worth missing land drops later on. If I cast Sivvi turn 2 off a Remote Farm and I'd like to get a CMC 3 Rebel the turn after (given that there's no 4s to get anyway), I'll be down a land drop for the rest of the game. In the description of the deck on tappedout it says that Mox Opal and Springleaf Drum enable a turn 2 Sivvi. Well, Mox Opal doing so has to have a less than 5% chance of working given the number of low-cost artifacts in the deck, and Drum (and Paradise Mantle too, for that matter) in fact can't enable a turn 2 Sivvi at all because it actually requires a zero casting cost creature to work, which the list has none of. Not trying to fire shots, but... in a well-tuned and tested list I feel like this should have come up before?
The infinite life combo is great to have in a competitive environment and I run it myself, however, with exactly one card in the deck that makes the combo work (Miren) I'm not sure how reliable it can even be, even with tutors. I run Boneyard as well, which can be tutored by a lot of cards and virtually doubles my outs to find the combo compared to the list above, and it's still unreliable enough for me to consider dropping the combo entirely. Instead of focusing on making one of its combos reliable this list tries to have all combos at once and I'm not sure that this gives you an overall higher chance to combo finish after all. It may even seem that the low land count is a result of trying to jam as many combos and toolboxes as possible into that 100. I don't want to go on criticizing though, given that this is just my own opinion and why I personally don't like it, so please don't take offense. This is EDH after all. Everything can work and everything can fail and in the end, to each their own.
can you send at list? Also, interesting note. lin Sivvi spiked 30 decks on edhrec withing the past couple of months.
I suspect this was aimed at Izor but...
I actually didn't know who he was addressing either, so I didn't reply because it's your thread after all. I'll post a list later if people are still interested.
I'm not sure you're playing in a real competitive environment, especially because you mention Animar, Sydri, and Arcum. I'm talking about pods with Food Chain Tazri, Doomsday Kess, Zur Ad Nauseum, and Thrasios/Tymna Protean Hulk. The sorcery speed hatebears are amazing in these match-ups and there's a reason why Tana/Tymna BloodPod is now a top competitive deck. It's a little unfair to say "that specific hatebear will be dead in these specific match-ups" because that is the bane of all toolbox decks in the history of Magic, and Lin Sivvi is a toolbox deck. Regarding your specific example of Stonecloaker, it blanks removal and lets you reuse ETB tutors-on-a-stick at the very least, and is a combo outlet with either Blind Obedience or Aetherflux Reservoir at its best. I had that card on the "maybe list" for a long time and it turned out that was very, very stupid of me. Equally stupid was not playing Bazaar of Baghdad. After reason ISB's comments on it earlier in this thread, I've been testing it and its amazing. It solves the "dead toolbox cards in hand" problem very well.
With regard to not playing Recruiter of the Guard, that's really absurd. It picks up whatever specific hatebear you need as well as combo pieces such as Metalworker and Walking Ballista. I'd say it's actually one of the best cards in the deck. The same with Ranger of Eos and its pieces - I actually don't mind drawing them in my opening hand at all. I have no problem sitting with a Heap Doll or Salvage Scout on board because invariably someone is a competitive pod with try to do something with their graveyard (there are no top decks that don't at the moment) or will kill one of my combo pieces / hatebears / draw engines (my deck is nearly 1/3 artifacts). But regardless, even an opening hand Tragic Poet, which I view as the weakest target of the bunch, isn't terrible. While I've considered removing it since I removed Test of Endurance and Humility, it has some tricks (I often use it to replay Seal of Cleansing and Aura of Silence, for example) and all of 1 CMC weenies are Skullclamp-able, making them into efficient draw spells (1W for draw two is an amazing rate). Springleaf Drum and Paradise Mantle also make them into mana dorks, which help make toolbox cards that are otherwise dead into very useful contributors.
With regard to mana, I personally think you both are playing far too much and are forced to due to the high end of your curve. How much mana does the deck want to spend in a turn cycle? In most cases, my build spends 2-3 on its own turn, and 1-3 on an opponents turn. In what situation do I actually regularly need more than 5-6 mana? The 3 mana Rebels are very specific toolbox hits that you don't tutor for indiscriminately - I only use Zealot that way because being I've found it so useful in competitive pods where people play lots of mana dorks. I'd absolutely prefer to be up on mana early so that Lin gets in immediately online. It's not able hitting a 3 CMC creature the turn after Lin - often, the next turn is actually for Ramosian Sergeant or Defiant Falcon so I can use some removal and have a back-up engine. In reality, my favorite (non-combo) openers go turn 1 Steelshaper's Gift into Skullclamp, turn 2 Mox/Crypt into Lin Sivvi, turn 3 have a draw engine active with some removal in hand - once you are drawing cards consistently, you don't want to be drawing mostly lands. I honestly believe Lin Sivvi is only mana hungry if you're playing her wrong. With such a low curve, I am dumping most of my hand that isn't removal or combo pieces very quickly, and then often playing a bit of draw-go with Lin to toolbox for value and answers while I assemble a combo. You want to play the minimal amount of lands possible such that you aren't left inactive a significant portion of the time. With my mana base and the fact that first mulligan is free, I probably end up mana screwed less than 5% of the time - I have much larger problems stuck with no cards in hand than I have being unable to cast my spells. Of course your list wants more lands, as you have tons of 4-6 CMC board wipes that you'd like to follow-up with board presence. This deck does not play wraths because it is not a deck that is afraid of creatures turning sideways.
Regarding Springleaf Drum in the "get Lin on turn 2 section", that card got put into that section because I had originally intended to turn that section into a more general "ramp" section in the August update (when the Drum got added) but never did at the time (see the warning that the primer is in progress). Springleaf and Paradise Mantle do often help me get a more solid turn 2 Lin Sivi, though. Playing a turn 1 weenie into Mox -> Springleaf/Paradise -> Lin is a very good play, as the "rocks" pay for themselves and guarantee you don't find yourself trading early ramping for an early 3 CMC play. Springleaf has been one of the all-stars of the deck and I can't imagine removing it. Mantle I've been less sure about, but it hasn't been bad and at the moment I', not considering removing it.
Remote Farm has been great for me. It puts you a land down on turn 4 or 5, when I'm not longer really worried about about being down a land. In competitive pods, I'd rather have 3 mana on turn 2 for Aura of Silence, Grasp of Fate, Aven Mindcensor, Recruiter of the Guard (for the right hatebear) or Council's Judgement, than 4 mana on turn 4 when most relevant cards only cost 2-3 anyways. A turn 2 Metalworker is also amazing and allows me to win turn 3 more often than I'd like. Competitive EDH is turn 3 format, and Remote Farm taps for WW on turn 2 and turn 3.
The infinite life combo is actually the opposite of what you're claiming - it's not good in a competitive pods and only good in pods where people are trying to turn creatures sideways. I removed Animal Boneyard because too often its a dead card, and there are plenty of ways for me to get to Miren. Weathered Wayfarer is tutorable by two cards, and Exploration Map is tutorable by two cards. I also don't try to win with Life.dec infinite life that often - ideally you'd like to get infinite life from Staff of Domination and drop Reservoir off of that. It's really a secondary win condition that makes the deck rather impervious to casual decks. When I notice the pod is mostly decks trying to attack my life total, I can start to dig for infinite life. With Scroll Rack and Teferi's Puzzlebox, finding exactly one card is often not that difficult, and luckily the rest of the combo is all accessible by Lin.
The deck doesn't "jam combos". It plays the combos that synergize with what Lin is already trying to do. The only combo that can really be considered "jammed" is Metalworker, but it ended up making its way into the core of the list because the deck is already playing all the tutors for it and [[Umbral Mantle]], and it enable both another infinite life combo win that gives Reservoir even more use, and amazing interactions with Lin (like tutoring out all of your rebels and making them infinitely large all in one turn). The overlapping of several combos is the key to the deck. I played in a cEDH pod the other night where Circu Lantern Control exiled my Walking Ballista and Staff of Domination. The fact that I could still make infinite mana with Rings of Brighthearth and Basalt Monolith, drawing into Reservoir after activating and replaying Sensei's Divining Top a dozen times, led to me winning the pod.
I understand criticism, but I feel like you're leading with hostility because it is so different than your build, but there's a reason why it's so popular on TappedOut.
Thanks for the lists. They operate quite different than mine in all the mana ramp.
How do you navigate your tragic arrogance, hour of revelation, Austere command with your artifacts? I've found artifacts to be one of the strongest points of my deck. Hence why I run multiple ways to get them back.
How has dusk to dawn been? It seems underwhelming. Most of your creatures you can bring back with Sivvi.
I dislike the infinite life combo. It takes three cards to get the life, then you need a payoff card. Has always been way to fragile for me. I'd suggest something like rest in peace/helm of obedience or bomberman (auriok, lion's eye, ballista/chromatic). They have been more reliant and resilient for me. With bomberman you could add in an additional package (tormond crypt, chromatic sphere/star, sensei top, skullclamp, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault).
I'd suggest try cutting distorting lens. In a multiplayer game someone always has red or black. If not, they are dead cards. Distorting lens is such a narrow card. I've always found it cute. If you want to pick off creatures you could try helm of possession.
Speaking of cute, zealot il-vec and basilisk collar. Cut collar. Add in a sword or jitte. They will do more work on a shadow creature.
It is always nice to discuss variants on Lin Sivvi.
Ramp - ultimately my goal is to throttle a LOT of tokens out in one turn and try to make them super buff for Mirror Entity. Having more of a focus on mana helps me some with that.
Tragic Arrogance - because I get to keep the best in each category I can keep Lin, a mana doubler or draw, and I honestly don't run that many enchantments. Because I get to control what dies for my opponents its keeping the best of my stuff and the worst of theirs which usually turns out fairly good.
Hour of Revelation - Honestly I have not yet played the card so I cant say much for it. Sometimes though my opponents just get too much stuff especially like value over time stuff and I need for it to go away. Its hard to try to spot removal everything and so sometimes you just have to say there is wayy too much crap in play and need to wrath. I also have been seeing a bit heavier planeswalker deck appearance of late so its nice in a pinch to blow them away. I haven't yet played this card but I have seen it played against me a few times and its strong.
Wraths as a Whole - I think you are correct in that our artifacts can be one of our most valuable resources. I think there are times though when other people get out of hand and spot removal only goes so far in mono white. I am somewhere in the middle because sometimes you are going to lose if you don't blow everything up.
Infinite Life - I kind of agree that if players are using infinites, the infinite life is one of the weakest infinites. Its going to piss people off and also not make you win. The flip side is if you go deeper and run additional wincons like the Aetherflux Reservoir I think you are already going to get people in that mindset and mood for combo so... I think its ok... its really not taking up much room in the deck.
Distorting Lens - This card has always been solid for me. Just because someone is probably playing Black or Red does not mean that their stuff that is black or red is what I want to hit. Distorting Lens is like taking a specific hate card and turning that card into Swords to Plowshares. Distorting Lens could just be turned into spot removal but its spot removal that needs to be removed by your opponents and is fast to act. Its true that we only have like two cards that interact with this card but our commander tutors those two cards, those two cards can still be very useful without this card but this card turns them into a nuke anything which I have always found useful.
Basilisk Collar - its actually worked quite well for me. Its not that much mana to play and equip and I mostly only use it for the zealot. Sword of Fire and Ice "can" be removal but its far more situational. I have also tried Sword of Fire and Ice in the past and disliked the mana to drop and equip in the same turn as I often felt vulnerable as its harder to keep up mana for my rebel activation when I pay 5 at sorcery speed to set up the sword. Jitte is an ok card but for me it never lives long and while I think the -/- ability is solid, it takes time for it to really add up enough for me to feel like it can do the same job as Basilisk Collar. Jitte can be nice against tokens I guess but it still feels like a slow fight to try to take on tokens with it. I guess all in all, I just feel like Basilisk Collar gives me more up front than the other two. If you assume that all three options will stick and continue to generate value, its possible the others might overtake collar because people play differently when they see you have a nuke cannon in play but I like the front loaded value of the collar personally.
I agree about Basilisk Collar. It's a little bad when your Zealot gets exiled, but otherwise it's really good. If you play Reservoir, it's also a nice alternative way to get to 50+ life, and then you can use Children of Korlis to kill multiple people at the table.
Your deck is more competitive in build. It shows in your mana acceleration.
What is a typical competitive/winning hand for you. I did some of the play testing on tapped out. Went through about 20 hands. There were a few that looked like it could win. But most seemed to slow.
I don't get metal worker. You want your artifacts in play. What happens when you draw metal worker.
White's option for infinite mana is mediocre at best. How consistent is yours.
How does cloaker protect Sivvi. It just returns it to your hand. Then you still have to play it. It's still a few turns before you can use Sivvi again.
Card's like blind obedience seem good. Also darksteel on thrasios.
I like palace jailer. Seems better in competitive with less creature's running around.
So here's my take on a rebuild for Lin Sivvi. I used to run a build like OP, but now, I've altered ISBPathfinder latest deck list. I'm curious on my card choices. Trying to run some different token makers, and pull a bit more on the card draw since I noticed that's what this deck lacks. I don't wanna just rely on being able to deal combat damage to draw though.
I like your inclusion of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I have not been really running other anthems other than Mirror Entity in this deck since like forever but I have played Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in another deck and I liked the forever anthem he gave. With rebels its always a concern of committing too many resources to the board so the idea of an Emblem anthem could be kind of cool.
Crib Swap & Dispatch seem a little sketchy to me for spot removal to be honest.
Day of Judgment - for the one more mana I think I would always prefer this to be Rout.
Rogue's Gloves - Its odd to see this in a list but not Mask of Memory. Mask of Memory is a strict improvement over this card. When I first saw this card I assumed you were playing it as a budget Sword of Fire and Ice but it seems a bit odd to me to have this over Mask of Memory. Mask costs less mana to play and equip and its draw effect is much stronger.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - watch out on the backfire. I had someone play one of these against me in a Kaalia deck and it completely destroyed me. Theft and clones could be a real problem with running this in your own list.
The thing I like about Gideon is that with the right items on the field, we can emblem and recur Gideon!
Dispatch This is mostly due to the fact that when we need to use it, metalcraft will be on. Also, in my meta, I don't really run against a lot of artifact hate that'll see the stack.
Crib Swap this was just cuz of it's tutor-ability. I am however totally open to cutting them for Dictate
Day of Judgment For me currently, it'd have to stay until I can find a Rout. However, i have written it down as a to get.
Mask of Memory - Again, another card I will have to find So in the meantime Rogue's Gloves it is. I have to wait for tcg/mail cards as shops by me only carry big name cards and not bulk rare/junk
I can see the point on Linvala. I haven't come across any clones or thefts yet, but there's always the removal I can count on, or try to. I'll keep play testing it, and if it nears 50% problematic, she'll get the cut.
Dictate of Heliod I wanna fit this and Honor of the Pure in, but for the 2W extra, it didn't make first cut. While yes, bigger and flashy is great, to me 1W allows me to do more on that turn, or get them out sooner.
Izor,
I hear ya about making plays that can’t be done in other formats. I’m lucky, I just play edh so it’s not hard for me to use interactions in my deck. One reason why I gravitated towards bomberman in Sivvi is how well it fits into a rebel build & enhances the cards own power level individually. Logic:
1. Sivvi needs guy removal. Opens up a slot for Tormomds crypt. Single player gy removal
2. Allowed me to play multiple non basics (23) which only 16 have access to white. It did so by allowing the inclusion of chromatic sphere/star.
3. Lions eye has always been decent. Whether used as an overrun, extra mana to dig using artifact interactions, etc...
That’s the main package.
It’s funny, I first put the helm + Rest In Peace combo in as I would time out on Mtgo before I could win (despite being in control).
My deck is not designed competitive. As seen in the no fast mana. I tend to play for feelings, experiences in my game play.
I’m really enjoying the different takes on Sivvi. It shows how what may appear to a “focused/one dimensional” commander can be built differently and strong.
I enjoyed your phrase rebel toolbox. I would say I have one also but seems to serve a moderately different use. My focus is not to frequently recruir rebels. Sivvi’s second ability is often “do I have the mana.” I’ll rarely use a bringer more then once in a game. Typically children or falcon are my main repeat targets. Despite only having 8 other rebel cards my deck is a Sivvi build. She makes it work.
It would be fun if we could play a multiplayer game online.
Unfortunately, I have decided to retire this primer / list for the time being. Over the last 3-4 years I have noticed that my willingness to play my rebel deck has been slowly getting less and less. I think there are a number of contributing factors as to why I am stepping away from rebels for a bit and among them they are:
I have started to dislike the specific upgrade I get vs Red, Black, and voltron decks that I had as a rebel deck. It was a problem to the point that anyone who had played against the deck before knew and would essentially play a vs me game and I didn't like that feeling. I dont mind having an advantage over a strategy given a deck but it seemed like it stood out a little more as rebels due to Bound in Silence, Lawbringer, and Lightbringer. While it was nice having those tools I didn't ever want to proactively keep someone from playing the game and in some ways playing rebels felt that way.
3v1 - for some reason, anyone who ever could poke at me seemed to do it. I dont know what the deal was but it felt like wraths only happened when it would be inconvenient for me. There were several players who felt they could not 1v1 me so they would always poke at me instead of each other.
Mirror Entity - I love this card but after awhile it felt like it was the only way I could try to win (mostly because it was). If I didnt find huge X token spawning I just had no way to actually threaten anyone.
Vs Value Decks - Nothing felt worse than playing against value decks because my value was just putting another vanilla dude into play. Decks that would win outside of combat were even worse.
This is me stepping back after a long time having played and supported this deck. I really do love rebels and it is my hope that I can pick them back up some day but right now, I am just perusing other interesting decks and some of the natural progression that comes from my commander choice when I reveal has just been bothering me of late. Some of me stepping back from this project right now is also just my continued hesitancy to play the deck. When I find that I am hesitant to play a deck for a long time its usually an indicator that I need to step away for a bit.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Endless Atlas and Isolated Watchtower seem like good cards for this deck.
That being said, I would like to transition this deck away from Draw Go and into a more active deck. Darien seems like a natural commander (add painlands, remove rebels, add soldiers). A Skullclamp token flood deck would also be possible, but the playstyle would be similar to Rebels and probably weaker overall.
This deck is pretty cool and interesting, Draw Go is not my preferred playstyle it seems. If Urzatron was realistic in EDH, it might have been the Pauper Urza's Rebellious Teenage Phase that I enjoyed awhile ago.
Any other Commanders besides Darien that could make good use of the cards I acquired for this deck?
Its probably fine as an add since a lot of the deck's wincons involve making X tokens and or pumping a swarm with X mana via Mirror Entity. I am not playing the deck anymore though so the OP is out of date and will continue to get further out of date as time goes on.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
This is what I run:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lin-bomberlady-sivvi/
A few things to note in this list / some things I wanted to try out:
1 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
CREATURES (23)
1 Children of Korlis
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Defiant Falcon
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Whipcorder
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Lawbringer
1 Lightbringer
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Mirror Entity
1 Stonecloaker
1 Zealot il-Vec
1 Alms Collector
1 Angel of Condemnation
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 Rappelling Scouts
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Changeling Hero
1 Jhovall Queen
1 Sun Titan
1 Angel of the Dire Hour
1 Emeria Shepherd
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
ARTIFACT (21)
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Expedition Map
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Distorting Lens
1 Dowsing Dagger
1 Mask of Memory
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Thaumatic Compass
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Crystal Ball
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Conqueror's Galleon
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mind's Eye
1 Caged Sun
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Land Tax
1 Aura of Silence
1 Bound in Silence
1 Mobilization
1 Sacred Mesa
INSTANT (7)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Return to Dust
1 Comeuppance
SORCERY (5)
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Open the Armory
1 Decree of Justice
1 Tragic Arrogance
1 Hour of Revelation
PLANESWALKER (1)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
LAND (37)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Buried Ruin
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Flooded Strand
1 High Market
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Kor Haven
1 Marsh Flats
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
19 Plains
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Strip Mine
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Winding Canyons
1 Windswept Heath
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
How do you navigate your tragic arrogance, hour of revelation, Austere command with your artifacts? I've found artifacts to be one of the strongest points of my deck. Hence why I run multiple ways to get them back.
How has dusk to dawn been? It seems underwhelming. Most of your creatures you can bring back with Sivvi.
I dislike the infinite life combo. It takes three cards to get the life, then you need a payoff card. Has always been way to fragile for me. I'd suggest something like rest in peace/helm of obedience or bomberman (auriok, lion's eye, ballista/chromatic). They have been more reliant and resilient for me. With bomberman you could add in an additional package (tormond crypt, chromatic sphere/star, sensei top, skullclamp, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault).
I'd suggest try cutting distorting lens. In a multiplayer game someone always has red or black. If not, they are dead cards. Distorting lens is such a narrow card. I've always found it cute. If you want to pick off creatures you could try helm of possession.
Speaking of cute, zealot il-vec and basilisk collar. Cut collar. Add in a sword or jitte. They will do more work on a shadow creature.
It is always nice to discuss variants on Lin Sivvi.
I'm not sure you're playing in a real competitive environment, especially because you mention Animar, Sydri, and Arcum. I'm talking about pods with Food Chain Tazri, Doomsday Kess, Zur Ad Nauseum, and Thrasios/Tymna Protean Hulk. The sorcery speed hatebears are amazing in these match-ups and there's a reason why Tana/Tymna BloodPod is now a top competitive deck. It's a little unfair to say "that specific hatebear will be dead in these specific match-ups" because that is the bane of all toolbox decks in the history of Magic, and Lin Sivvi is a toolbox deck. Regarding your specific example of Stonecloaker, it blanks removal and lets you reuse ETB tutors-on-a-stick at the very least, and is a combo outlet with either Blind Obedience or Aetherflux Reservoir at its best. I had that card on the "maybe list" for a long time and it turned out that was very, very stupid of me. Equally stupid was not playing Bazaar of Baghdad. After reason ISB's comments on it earlier in this thread, I've been testing it and its amazing. It solves the "dead toolbox cards in hand" problem very well.
With regard to not playing Recruiter of the Guard, that's really absurd. It picks up whatever specific hatebear you need as well as combo pieces such as Metalworker and Walking Ballista. I'd say it's actually one of the best cards in the deck. The same with Ranger of Eos and its pieces - I actually don't mind drawing them in my opening hand at all. I have no problem sitting with a Heap Doll or Salvage Scout on board because invariably someone is a competitive pod with try to do something with their graveyard (there are no top decks that don't at the moment) or will kill one of my combo pieces / hatebears / draw engines (my deck is nearly 1/3 artifacts). But regardless, even an opening hand Tragic Poet, which I view as the weakest target of the bunch, isn't terrible. While I've considered removing it since I removed Test of Endurance and Humility, it has some tricks (I often use it to replay Seal of Cleansing and Aura of Silence, for example) and all of 1 CMC weenies are Skullclamp-able, making them into efficient draw spells (1W for draw two is an amazing rate). Springleaf Drum and Paradise Mantle also make them into mana dorks, which help make toolbox cards that are otherwise dead into very useful contributors.
With regard to mana, I personally think you both are playing far too much and are forced to due to the high end of your curve. How much mana does the deck want to spend in a turn cycle? In most cases, my build spends 2-3 on its own turn, and 1-3 on an opponents turn. In what situation do I actually regularly need more than 5-6 mana? The 3 mana Rebels are very specific toolbox hits that you don't tutor for indiscriminately - I only use Zealot that way because being I've found it so useful in competitive pods where people play lots of mana dorks. I'd absolutely prefer to be up on mana early so that Lin gets in immediately online. It's not able hitting a 3 CMC creature the turn after Lin - often, the next turn is actually for Ramosian Sergeant or Defiant Falcon so I can use some removal and have a back-up engine. In reality, my favorite (non-combo) openers go turn 1 Steelshaper's Gift into Skullclamp, turn 2 Mox/Crypt into Lin Sivvi, turn 3 have a draw engine active with some removal in hand - once you are drawing cards consistently, you don't want to be drawing mostly lands. I honestly believe Lin Sivvi is only mana hungry if you're playing her wrong. With such a low curve, I am dumping most of my hand that isn't removal or combo pieces very quickly, and then often playing a bit of draw-go with Lin to toolbox for value and answers while I assemble a combo. You want to play the minimal amount of lands possible such that you aren't left inactive a significant portion of the time. With my mana base and the fact that first mulligan is free, I probably end up mana screwed less than 5% of the time - I have much larger problems stuck with no cards in hand than I have being unable to cast my spells. Of course your list wants more lands, as you have tons of 4-6 CMC board wipes that you'd like to follow-up with board presence. This deck does not play wraths because it is not a deck that is afraid of creatures turning sideways.
Regarding Springleaf Drum in the "get Lin on turn 2 section", that card got put into that section because I had originally intended to turn that section into a more general "ramp" section in the August update (when the Drum got added) but never did at the time (see the warning that the primer is in progress). Springleaf and Paradise Mantle do often help me get a more solid turn 2 Lin Sivi, though. Playing a turn 1 weenie into Mox -> Springleaf/Paradise -> Lin is a very good play, as the "rocks" pay for themselves and guarantee you don't find yourself trading early ramping for an early 3 CMC play. Springleaf has been one of the all-stars of the deck and I can't imagine removing it. Mantle I've been less sure about, but it hasn't been bad and at the moment I', not considering removing it.
Remote Farm has been great for me. It puts you a land down on turn 4 or 5, when I'm not longer really worried about about being down a land. In competitive pods, I'd rather have 3 mana on turn 2 for Aura of Silence, Grasp of Fate, Aven Mindcensor, Recruiter of the Guard (for the right hatebear) or Council's Judgement, than 4 mana on turn 4 when most relevant cards only cost 2-3 anyways. A turn 2 Metalworker is also amazing and allows me to win turn 3 more often than I'd like. Competitive EDH is turn 3 format, and Remote Farm taps for WW on turn 2 and turn 3.
The infinite life combo is actually the opposite of what you're claiming - it's not good in a competitive pods and only good in pods where people are trying to turn creatures sideways. I removed Animal Boneyard because too often its a dead card, and there are plenty of ways for me to get to Miren. Weathered Wayfarer is tutorable by two cards, and Exploration Map is tutorable by two cards. I also don't try to win with Life.dec infinite life that often - ideally you'd like to get infinite life from Staff of Domination and drop Reservoir off of that. It's really a secondary win condition that makes the deck rather impervious to casual decks. When I notice the pod is mostly decks trying to attack my life total, I can start to dig for infinite life. With Scroll Rack and Teferi's Puzzlebox, finding exactly one card is often not that difficult, and luckily the rest of the combo is all accessible by Lin.
The deck doesn't "jam combos". It plays the combos that synergize with what Lin is already trying to do. The only combo that can really be considered "jammed" is Metalworker, but it ended up making its way into the core of the list because the deck is already playing all the tutors for it and [[Umbral Mantle]], and it enable both another infinite life combo win that gives Reservoir even more use, and amazing interactions with Lin (like tutoring out all of your rebels and making them infinitely large all in one turn). The overlapping of several combos is the key to the deck. I played in a cEDH pod the other night where Circu Lantern Control exiled my Walking Ballista and Staff of Domination. The fact that I could still make infinite mana with Rings of Brighthearth and Basalt Monolith, drawing into Reservoir after activating and replaying Sensei's Divining Top a dozen times, led to me winning the pod.
I understand criticism, but I feel like you're leading with hostility because it is so different than your build, but there's a reason why it's so popular on TappedOut.
Ramp - ultimately my goal is to throttle a LOT of tokens out in one turn and try to make them super buff for Mirror Entity. Having more of a focus on mana helps me some with that.
Tragic Arrogance - because I get to keep the best in each category I can keep Lin, a mana doubler or draw, and I honestly don't run that many enchantments. Because I get to control what dies for my opponents its keeping the best of my stuff and the worst of theirs which usually turns out fairly good.
Hour of Revelation - Honestly I have not yet played the card so I cant say much for it. Sometimes though my opponents just get too much stuff especially like value over time stuff and I need for it to go away. Its hard to try to spot removal everything and so sometimes you just have to say there is wayy too much crap in play and need to wrath. I also have been seeing a bit heavier planeswalker deck appearance of late so its nice in a pinch to blow them away. I haven't yet played this card but I have seen it played against me a few times and its strong.
Wraths as a Whole - I think you are correct in that our artifacts can be one of our most valuable resources. I think there are times though when other people get out of hand and spot removal only goes so far in mono white. I am somewhere in the middle because sometimes you are going to lose if you don't blow everything up.
Infinite Life - I kind of agree that if players are using infinites, the infinite life is one of the weakest infinites. Its going to piss people off and also not make you win. The flip side is if you go deeper and run additional wincons like the Aetherflux Reservoir I think you are already going to get people in that mindset and mood for combo so... I think its ok... its really not taking up much room in the deck.
Distorting Lens - This card has always been solid for me. Just because someone is probably playing Black or Red does not mean that their stuff that is black or red is what I want to hit. Distorting Lens is like taking a specific hate card and turning that card into Swords to Plowshares. Distorting Lens could just be turned into spot removal but its spot removal that needs to be removed by your opponents and is fast to act. Its true that we only have like two cards that interact with this card but our commander tutors those two cards, those two cards can still be very useful without this card but this card turns them into a nuke anything which I have always found useful.
Basilisk Collar - its actually worked quite well for me. Its not that much mana to play and equip and I mostly only use it for the zealot. Sword of Fire and Ice "can" be removal but its far more situational. I have also tried Sword of Fire and Ice in the past and disliked the mana to drop and equip in the same turn as I often felt vulnerable as its harder to keep up mana for my rebel activation when I pay 5 at sorcery speed to set up the sword. Jitte is an ok card but for me it never lives long and while I think the -/- ability is solid, it takes time for it to really add up enough for me to feel like it can do the same job as Basilisk Collar. Jitte can be nice against tokens I guess but it still feels like a slow fight to try to take on tokens with it. I guess all in all, I just feel like Basilisk Collar gives me more up front than the other two. If you assume that all three options will stick and continue to generate value, its possible the others might overtake collar because people play differently when they see you have a nuke cannon in play but I like the front loaded value of the collar personally.
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[Modern] Allies
Your deck is more competitive in build. It shows in your mana acceleration.
What is a typical competitive/winning hand for you. I did some of the play testing on tapped out. Went through about 20 hands. There were a few that looked like it could win. But most seemed to slow.
I don't get metal worker. You want your artifacts in play. What happens when you draw metal worker.
White's option for infinite mana is mediocre at best. How consistent is yours.
How does cloaker protect Sivvi. It just returns it to your hand. Then you still have to play it. It's still a few turns before you can use Sivvi again.
Card's like blind obedience seem good. Also darksteel on thrasios.
I like palace jailer. Seems better in competitive with less creature's running around.
1x Alms Collector
1x Angel of Condemnation
1x Archangel of Thune
1x Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1x Changeling Hero
1x Children of Korlis
1x Defiant Falcon
1x Defiant Vanguard
1x Emeria Shepherd
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Hanweir Militia Captain
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Intrepid Hero
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Lawbringer
1x Lightbringer
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Mentor of the Meek
1x Mirror Entity
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Sun Titan
1x Weathered Wayfarer
1x Whipcorder
1x Zealot il-Vec
1x Day of Judgment
1x Entreat the Angels
1x Hour of Revelation
1x Wrath of God
Artifact (20)
1x Caged Sun
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Darksteel Plate
1x Distorting Lens
1x Dreamstone Hedron
1x Expedition Map
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Heartstone
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mind's Eye
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Rogue's Gloves
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of the Animist
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
Instant (6)
1x Crib Swap
1x Dispatch
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x White Sun's Zenith
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Land (37)
1x Emeria, The Sky Ruin
1x Ghost Quarter
1x High Market
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mistveil Plains
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Path of Ancestry
23x Plains
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Strip Mine
1x Temple of the False God
1x Thawing Glaciers
1x Thespian's Stage
Enchantment (5)
1x Bound in Silence
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Honor of the Pure
1x Land Tax
1x Sacred Mesa
I like your inclusion of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. I have not been really running other anthems other than Mirror Entity in this deck since like forever but I have played Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in another deck and I liked the forever anthem he gave. With rebels its always a concern of committing too many resources to the board so the idea of an Emblem anthem could be kind of cool.
Crib Swap & Dispatch seem a little sketchy to me for spot removal to be honest.
Day of Judgment - for the one more mana I think I would always prefer this to be Rout.
Rogue's Gloves - Its odd to see this in a list but not Mask of Memory. Mask of Memory is a strict improvement over this card. When I first saw this card I assumed you were playing it as a budget Sword of Fire and Ice but it seems a bit odd to me to have this over Mask of Memory. Mask costs less mana to play and equip and its draw effect is much stronger.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence - watch out on the backfire. I had someone play one of these against me in a Kaalia deck and it completely destroyed me. Theft and clones could be a real problem with running this in your own list.
Honor of the Pure - I would probably swap to Dictate of Heliod for the bigger buff not to mention you can flash it out as well.
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[Modern] Allies
The thing I like about Gideon is that with the right items on the field, we can emblem and recur Gideon!
Dispatch This is mostly due to the fact that when we need to use it, metalcraft will be on. Also, in my meta, I don't really run against a lot of artifact hate that'll see the stack.
Crib Swap this was just cuz of it's tutor-ability. I am however totally open to cutting them for Dictate
Day of Judgment For me currently, it'd have to stay until I can find a Rout. However, i have written it down as a to get.
Mask of Memory - Again, another card I will have to find So in the meantime Rogue's Gloves it is. I have to wait for tcg/mail cards as shops by me only carry big name cards and not bulk rare/junk
I can see the point on Linvala. I haven't come across any clones or thefts yet, but there's always the removal I can count on, or try to. I'll keep play testing it, and if it nears 50% problematic, she'll get the cut.
Dictate of Heliod I wanna fit this and Honor of the Pure in, but for the 2W extra, it didn't make first cut. While yes, bigger and flashy is great, to me 1W allows me to do more on that turn, or get them out sooner.
I hear ya about making plays that can’t be done in other formats. I’m lucky, I just play edh so it’s not hard for me to use interactions in my deck. One reason why I gravitated towards bomberman in Sivvi is how well it fits into a rebel build & enhances the cards own power level individually. Logic:
1. Sivvi needs guy removal. Opens up a slot for Tormomds crypt. Single player gy removal
2. Allowed me to play multiple non basics (23) which only 16 have access to white. It did so by allowing the inclusion of chromatic sphere/star.
3. Lions eye has always been decent. Whether used as an overrun, extra mana to dig using artifact interactions, etc...
That’s the main package.
It’s funny, I first put the helm + Rest In Peace combo in as I would time out on Mtgo before I could win (despite being in control).
My deck is not designed competitive. As seen in the no fast mana. I tend to play for feelings, experiences in my game play.
I’m really enjoying the different takes on Sivvi. It shows how what may appear to a “focused/one dimensional” commander can be built differently and strong.
I enjoyed your phrase rebel toolbox. I would say I have one also but seems to serve a moderately different use. My focus is not to frequently recruir rebels. Sivvi’s second ability is often “do I have the mana.” I’ll rarely use a bringer more then once in a game. Typically children or falcon are my main repeat targets. Despite only having 8 other rebel cards my deck is a Sivvi build. She makes it work.
It would be fun if we could play a multiplayer game online.
This is me stepping back after a long time having played and supported this deck. I really do love rebels and it is my hope that I can pick them back up some day but right now, I am just perusing other interesting decks and some of the natural progression that comes from my commander choice when I reveal has just been bothering me of late. Some of me stepping back from this project right now is also just my continued hesitancy to play the deck. When I find that I am hesitant to play a deck for a long time its usually an indicator that I need to step away for a bit.
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[Modern] Allies
That being said, I would like to transition this deck away from Draw Go and into a more active deck. Darien seems like a natural commander (add painlands, remove rebels, add soldiers). A Skullclamp token flood deck would also be possible, but the playstyle would be similar to Rebels and probably weaker overall.
This deck is pretty cool and interesting, Draw Go is not my preferred playstyle it seems. If Urzatron was realistic in EDH, it might have been the Pauper Urza's Rebellious Teenage Phase that I enjoyed awhile ago.
Any other Commanders besides Darien that could make good use of the cards I acquired for this deck?
Cheers
Its probably fine as an add since a lot of the deck's wincons involve making X tokens and or pumping a swarm with X mana via Mirror Entity. I am not playing the deck anymore though so the OP is out of date and will continue to get further out of date as time goes on.
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[Modern] Allies